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News and opinion from the show highlight this week's episode.
- Indeed also rolls out an old-timey assessment add-on
- .jobs is .gone for DirectEmployers Association
- RecruitLlama is unveiled
Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast.
Joel: Hey, hey, hey boys and girls. Welcome to another riveting episode of the Chad and Cheese Podcast, Hrs most dangerous. I'm Joel Cheesman.
Chad: And I'm Chad "Rickey Bobby" Sowash.
Joel: On this week's show, everyone's sorry, dot jobs get dot dumped, and the shit is flying at Starbucks. Literally. What the hell are we talking about? You gotta listen, sucka. We'll be right back.
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Chad: You think Sovren's matching engine can run chat bot, too, with their AI? Their AI could do chat bots as well?
Joel: I'm just glad that I don't have to think like the engine and the engine thinks like me.
Chad: That's what I'm saying.
Joel: Sure. I think after a demo with Sovren about six months ago that I think they could probably do about anything.
Chad: Yeah, that's what we need to do. Get a demo.
Joel: That place is a cash printing machine and so few people know about it. Much more now that our show is live and pimping them, but man. Sovren is the real deal. Their client list is ridiculous.
Chad: That's pretty awesome. You know who else is the real deal and we actually got some gear, was Uncommon. They provided us with some uncommon and very high-quality gear, which is pretty awesome.
Joel: And hoodies.
Joel: No one gives hoodies out.
Chad: That's right, yeah. It is the summer, but don't worry it'll be worn all the way through autumn and winter, I promise.
Joel: It's nice. American Apparel. It was, yeah. Shout out to them for sure. I'm gonna give a shout out to another one of our favorite vendors, Aman Brar at Canvas. If you haven't heard the Canvas interview, go back and listen, but they're doing the text message thing. They have some pretty cool cozies that Aman teases with. Hopefully we can get those things in our hands pretty soon 'cause summertime here in Indiana does get a little warm. The pops can get stale quickly.
Chad: Yeah, no kidding, so it's funny because we're starting to be trolled by our very own listeners. I think it's freaking hilarious. Some of our listeners are in Vegas this week for Unleash and they caught the Career Builder booth empty and it's funny because it doesn't look like the monitor's plugged in, it doesn't look like anybody's home, but we're getting all these pictures of an empty Career Builders booth. We're like, what the hell is going on there? It seems like we're just being trolled by our listeners, which I think is funny as hell.
Joel: So, were the Career Builder employees actually at the booth or was there really an empty booth because the pictures I saw, the lights were on and there were people in the exhibit hall.
Joel: It could've been a trick by a competitor to make them look bad. We should maybe confirm whether or not they had some travel troubles or what was going on there.
Chad: Yeah, I think they might've been late to the booth to be able to get some of the things plugged in, but it was funny and I think one of the pictures was taken around lunch so everybody was out away from the booth during lunch, so I think it was all kind of posed, so I think it was funny so trying to troll us into trolling Career Builder. Nice move, guys. Very nice move.
Joel: Do we know the show that was?
Chad: Yeah, it was Unleash.
Joel: It was Unleash? Okay, so if you're at Unleash and I know a lot of people were probably listening, hashtag us at #ChadCheese or go to chadcheese.com and let us know what was going on with the Career Builder booth at the show.
Joel: I got a shout out to Daniel Woyke I'm not sure, it's W-O-Y-K-E. from our friends at Madgex over the pond.
Chad: Oh, yeah.
Joel: He's a big fan of the show, gave us some love. Daniel, thanks for listening. We appreciate it.
Chad: I am also being trolled by the people over at Monster. It's funny because as we give Monster shit it's like they give us shit back which is like the polar opposite of Career Builder. We start to give Career Builder shit and they go and hide in a corner or they get in the fetal position or something.
Joel: Call the lawyers, call the lawyers.
Chad: Call the lawyers. Send some letters. So, what did Monster do? I've been making fun of this stupid, purple, Bugs Bunny rip off monster that they've been using, and what do they do? They send me and you both a couple of these furry, fluffy monsters plus some mousepad and also a squeezy monster as well. So, good on you, Monster. That's exactly what we're looking for. We're proving snark and then you're just sending it right back at us. Gotta say we love it. Not sure that I'm 100% on your job search yet, but this is funny as shit.
Joel: My eight year old daughter loved the stuffies, so I'm not gonna hate on them too much for that. Shout out to Sarah Brennan, a long time industry participant. She gave me word that she's leaving Cornerstone on Demand and going out on her own again.
Chad: Good for her.
Joel: Writes a lot, she goes to conferences, she's a thought leader, speaker. So, I'm kind of happy that she's out from under the corporate thumb and on her own again. So Sarah, thanks for being a listener and good luck to you.
Chad: Yeah, good for her. I've got a couple of programming notes. First and foremost, we did our very first demo, video demo. Chad and Cheese video demo and we did it with Teg from Uncommon. We did it yesterday. It's gonna be dropping on the websites. We're gonna be pushing out on social media. It's really cool. Obviously, we wanted to dig in deeper into the guts of Uncommon because we heard a lot on the podcast. It got pretty much double applause from us and we thought, okay, how can we take this further? Let's see what you got.
Chad: So, Joel and I sat back with a couple of beers and Teg took us through it so it was pretty awesome.
Joel: Yeah, for anyone who doesn't want to actually talk to a salesperson or schedule a call, just check out the video if you're interested in Uncommon and get the demo and we'll be your Q&A for you. It's a nice little thing that we've done, I think, for the community. So, you're welcome.
Chad: You're welcome. Last but not least, we also did a new firing squad which you've gotta listen to. Woo.io CEO Larin was on firing squad and we have another one already in the can for next month, but some really, pretty cool start ups that are joining in and they're taking the shots from the Chad and Cheese. So, good on them. They've got the balls to actually come on the show.
Joel: No spoilers, but I'll say that we weren't all wooed by woo if you know what I'm saying.
Chad: So bad.
Joel: Alright, lets get to the news. It was Indeed's week in addition to Unleash. Indeeed had their annual meeting which things are just starting to trickle out from what was going on there, but they had two releases. The first one was Indeed assessments. So a few months ago, they bought a company called Interviewed, I think, which was assessments. So now they finally integrated this service. It seems a bit antiquated at this point and manually put all this stuff in, particularly when you talk to people like Uncommon who uses AI for that stuff, but it's a step forward, I think, for most of their users. It's a fine little addition to their service. What are your thoughts?
Chad: Do you know if the actual interview itself, like the interview process, if it can be done by text or is it just an old timey going through answering questions on your browser and going on that? Is that pretty much what they've implemented?
Joel: Yeah, from the look of it, it's the pre-screening questionnaire. How many years do you have, are you a U.S. citizen, do you have a college degree, basic questions kind of like that. So yeah, it is what it is. That kind of stuff's been around for a long time. Indeed is just now starting to catch up to that. Will it become more AI focused and automated in the future? I guess, but for now it to me looks pretty cut and dry. They do have an advertisement apparently that's pimping the Q&A. It looks really focused at the small business side of the house.
Joel: Someone hiring waiters or whoever. Do you have wait service? Do you have your own car? Do you have a driver's license? Can you get to where we need you on time? That kind of thing. So, yeah it's fine, but I don't think it's earth shattering news whatsoever.
Chad: Yeah and then the SNB market. I think ZipRecruiter's kicking their asses as it is and if they would just spend some cash on buying ZipRecruiter's, maybe that would solve it for them. Who knows.
Joel: I will add, we talk a lot about Facebook, but in little different variances like with their slack product and thinks like that, but F8 happened a week ago, I believe, which is their annual developers conference. So, Zuckerberg revealed that 800 million people per month globally are in their marketplace section using it. I think one in three Americans are using marketplace on a regular basis.
Chad: That's pretty sweet.
Joel: So, I just did a post for ERE that isn't live yet, but they're enhancing their job search component for, this sounds really archaic, but for them they're catching up so they have alerts on your mobile for jobs that you're looking for. You can actually segment your search now. It already does a localize your search, but when you go to the post job section now, in addition to putting the job description and basic information, it does allow you to ask questions, which I assume are going to be part of their Instant Messenger, so when people reply they'll get a message or pop up that says, hey, answer these questions. Almost in a chat bot format, which will also serve, I assume, as a pre screening solution.
Joel: So, don't fall asleep on Facebook in the SMB section. I think that they're doing a lot of these things as well and they're already integrated in most of everyone's life as it is.
Chad: Yeah and you take a look at GoogleHire. Right out of the gate it was very antiquated, very boring, very, "what the hell am I doing here" kind of a product, but that was the foundation. They had to start with something and they had to start with a foundation which is what I think you're seeing with the Facebook and Google and Facebook can get away with that. Especially on the SNB side of the house because they're gonna start genning up much quicker. So, the new Google Hire with the matching pieces, we're starting to see them making some pretty big moves and I think, also, we're gonna start seeing Facebook doing the same thing.
Chad: Now on the Indeed side, which is, obviously, where we started the conversation, being able to take an old timey interview-y platform, they don't have the same time that Google and Facebook does. They don't have the kind of resources, they don't have the kind of tech. They don't have all of that. So, if Indeed's going to start making moves, it should be with organizations that do have more mature tech so that they don't have to try to catch up because on that side, they're gonna be catching up.
Joel: Well, further evidence of where Indeed might be going in terms of fending off Google and Facebook and others, they also released this week their Indeed transparency report. We know from last week that Glassdoor and Indeed are basically married now. They have the same ownership. We speculated that they would become one brand at some point or at least have the same content, both job search and employee reviews. So, Indeed putting out something like this is pretty new. I've not heard of them do this before.
Joel: So, they're asking people how important are reviews, what do you think about poor reviews and things like that. Some of the things that were highlighted from the report that caught my eye were the fact that no reviews is worse than bad reviews because people look at if you have no reviews, are you even real? You don't even exist if you have no reviews so if you have bad reviews, take some heart that at least you're better than no reviews and people actually think the job postings that you're putting out there might actually be fake if you don't have actual reviews on your site.
Joel: The other thing was for Gen Z, reviews are ... if you don't have them you're not even in the game. If you wanna hire a Gen Z and you don't have reviews out there, just forget it. You can still recruit boomers and X'ers and some millennials, but Z will tune you out totally.
Chad: Yeah, we're getting intro the behavior. Restaurants and products and so on and so forth. We're looking at reviews for quality for whether we wanna go there or not 'cause we're making a decision to buy and in this case we're making a decision to buy and actually buy into this company and work there. So, yeah, that makes hell of a lot of sense, and last week we actually talked about this and I had said that Google, not Google, Indeed is going to start beating the hell out of their employers and clients with the Glassdoor stick because they're looking to diversify their areas of revenue and if they do come under one umbrella, GlassDeed, InDoor, whatever the hell, they're gonna have to get better at diversifying the model, and take a look at the employer branding and things of that nature, which is, once again, you point back to the Stepstone Universum acquisition.
Chad: So, this is happening and I think it's smart. I think it's good and it was funny because we ere on a call with Peter Weddle earlier this week and he asked us is the Recruit acquisition of Glassdoor good for the industry and what do you think of that?
Joel: Is the Glassdoor-Indeed acquisition or marriage good for the industry?
Joel: I think anytime that you have another strong competitor, competition is good for business. The ultimate winner in all of this is the consumer, whether it's the jobs seeker or the employer. Probably more the job seeker than anything, but they don't have to go through multiple sites to post, apply for jobs. Applying for jobs is easier, they have more information about a company in terms of choosing the right now. So, I think, ultimately, more competition is better. I think the question is exactly how much of a competitor is Glassdoor-Indeed going to be to these gorilla-esque competitors in LinkedIn, Facebook, and Google.
Joel: I'm of the belief that Recruit Holdings, who owns both of those two, are gonna have to continually acquire more and more job boards to compete on this level. I think ZipRecruiter should be on their radar. I wouldn't be shocked if Career Builder is on the radar or Monster. That could happen. Dice and their family of sites. These are all for sale for sure. Now, does Recruit Holdings backup the Brinks truck and buy all of them or buy more of them? I think more of them, but I don't know which ones. I don't think Glassdoor and Indeed by themselves are gonna compete long-term with the big three.
Chad: Right, so you're looking really up. You're looking up. Let's look down for a second. I think that some of the smaller brands believe it or not, the Career Builders, the Monsters, and all the other vendors that are in the space that are not the behemoths like the Googles and the Facebooks. This is going to challenge them to be able to innovate, quicker, faster, harder and to partner because they're not gonna have the acquisition dollars to be able to keep up with a Glassdoor-Indeed type of acquisition. So, I think it's good for the industry overall.
Joel: Yeah, and I think, you and I talk about this all the time, is that AI and automation and deep learning and who has the most PhDs. Ultimately, AI is gonna scale across everything from the stuff we buy to our homes to our work-life balance, to job postings and employment. And the companies at the forefront of that are the bigger companies and if they could scale AI to all of their product offerings, then it's game over.
Joel: Then at that point, Indeed and Glassdoor and everybody just looks like Craigslist at that point. It just looks like online job postings. So, I think the kind of acquisitions they should be making are probably in who are doing really cool AI things that we can integrate into our brain trust and start competing on that level. Well, instead of looking at going to Google and I really think that they're, obviously, gonna smoke everybody in the end, but right now if they're not going to integrate Google Jobs API and if Google actually finally comes out with a people or candidate API, who do we go integrate with?
Chad: We start looking at other brands, smaller brands like Opening.io or some of the other Brilent or what have you. Who do we actually integrate with that could be maybe a little bit more cost-effective for us from a margin standpoint but still be able to compete.
Joel: Yeah, and I'll add on the transparency report. Part of that was to also unveil sort of enhanced profile pages that are currently on Indeed. So, the offering that they're starting to create is a very Glassdoor type offering. Most of the whole post was sort of a hand job to Glassdoor and we're gonna be more like Glassdoor. Sort of paying homage to what they're doing. So, I still believe at some point they'll be one site and part of these changes are to make sure that the data sets that they're gathering are equal and the metrics and the people who are on Glassdoor, they easily transition over to Indeed and all their content and data all comes over as one major data point and I think, probably, this was a step in that direction as well.
Joel: So, if you don't have a profile page on Indeed, you should be noticing. Or if you do have a profile on Indeed, you should have noticed or should be noticing some enhancements from that side at least in the US coming forward.
Chad: Yeah, so you saw there was actually a post put out by Ryan Christoi from KRT about some of this. About this marriage.
Joel: Ya boy. Ya boy Ryan.
Chad: So tell me because you've got some pretty strong opinions about this one.
Joel: I do. In his post, he sort of framed it as, hey, Glassdoor and Indeed are gonna have a real chance at competing with the big guys at Google and et cetera. He was very non-committal in his quote which is basically quote, "The combination of Indeed and Glassdoor will give Recruit Holdings," who's the owner of those two, "the firepower to try to compete with Google for Jobs." Now, I love that he put the word "try" in there because you and I could try to compete with Google, but it doesn't mean we're gonna win.
Joel: So, that was a nice little diplomatic wordplay there for Ryan, but I think the key here is, you and I talked about it, is every agency on the planet in recruitment should be rooting for Indeed and Glassdoor because if they become the employer brand juggernaut that they could become, it's a goldmine for agencies, right?
Chad: Oh, yeah, and the focus on, really, the experience and the story and all those different things, the warm fluffy things, that matter. Don't get me wrong, that matter, that agencies have always been good at. Content, being able to create all those types of things and really getting back to those areas of what agencies are good at as opposed to creating technologies that are going to be outpaced.
Joel: I would bet a lot of employers out there have already gotten calls from Indeed reps, Glassdoor reps, agency reps, to talk about, how do we enhance your brand on these sites, and agencies are probably foaming at the mouth thinking about all the campaigns that they could run on Indeed and Glassdoor to make that happen.
Chad: Yeah, well talking about brands and ones that have taken some hard hits, they've got some-
Joel: Can I interject?
Chad: Go ahead.
Joel: Let me inject real quick. Shameless plug, next Wednesday, Ratedly, my little side company, I'm doing a free webinar on Glassdoor plus Indeed and what it means to employer branding and what you should do to prepare for the impending doom of what's coming on, so for listeners who wanna join in on that webinar, you can just go to ratedly.com/glassdeed and I'll spell it out for you. If you're having trouble, just go to ratedly.com and check out our blog post and you'll find the post about the webinar.
Chad: So, how come I wasn't puled on as a guest to heckle you? This is bullshit.
Joel: You can register and I may unplug your mic. Who knows?
Chad: Such an asshole. Okay, so we've seen some of these big brands like Wells Fargo, Facebook, and Uber with these "so sorry" campaigns. We're so sorry that we fucked up.
Joel: Yeah and this started, at least for me, with Domino's. So a lot of people remember Domino's used to be wet cardboard with cheese on it.
Chad: Bad pizza.
Joel: And they went out and had a whole ad campaign with a CEO saying, we know we suck, we had some real chefs come in, we've improved our pizza, we're gonna get better, and then no one said sorry for a long time and then now everybody's saying sorry.
Chad: Yeah, dude.
Joel: You like one in particular better than others. Talk about that.
Chad: So, Wells Fargo. They did some pretty shady, nasty shit and you can look it up. I'm not gonna delve deep into it, but Wells Fargo's a name that's been around since back in the stagecoach days. So they've got this awesome ad that actually sets up what they've been doing to earn the trust of their customers for so many years, for decades, and then it says, "It's how we earned your trust until we lost it." It's this point where it's like they say, look, we know we fucked up and we're sorry and this is how we're going to earn your trust back at Wells Fargo. It was done incredibly well.
Chad: I don't know who the advertising agency was who did this, but they did an amazing job. I saw it on the TV. Very first time and at the end of it I was like, kudos, man. That was well-spent money.
Joel: I like how you said I saw it on the television.
Chad: I saw it on the television.
Joel: I saw it on the moving picture box. One of the things that got to me is all of these ads are sort of employment related subliminally. They're all saying, we're good people, we treat our employees well or we're focused on building a better world, we're getting it right. I think Wells Fargo in particular, it's a pretty quick cut but an employee at Wells Fargo who's in a wheelchair as part of the ad. There are lot of different faces, male and female, lot of different shades that you see in the ad. Was that your takeaway as well 'cause you're sort of our go-to compliance diversity guy.
Joel: Or was it more pandering?
Chad: There's all of that, but it fit within the actual context of we're here to help everybody and earn your trust back. We know this big group. We've gotta earn the trust back. So, again, it's all about actions, but that story was incredibly impactful and that's what advertising should do. Especially when it comes to somebody who screwed up this bad.
Joel: Now, for me I'd say Facebook was my favorite. I think with the Russian stuff
and the hacks and the fake news.
Chad: Too soon for me. Too soon.
Joel: Facebook has way more penetration than Wells Fargo does. A lot of the country doesn't even have Wells Fargo including here in Indiana. There are very few Wells Fargos.
Joel: If any in our neck of the woods. Even though they have investment services, so I'm sure people use that and mortgage services et cetera, but Facebook, huge penetration, and it made me remember my first experience with Facebook. That first time, add a friend or add as a friend and to me that was more impactful and I think from an employment standpoint, I think that Facebook and Silicone Valley has taken the toughest hit because from what I understand is people, developers, are a little gun shy to go work at Facebook because of the Trump connection and the Russians and the blah, blah, blah, and they're choosing other employers instead of Facebook.
Joel: So, for me that was the most important employment ad even though it wasn't an employment ad because it was saying to job seekers, hey, it's okay to come work for us. We're fixing this problem. We're gonna get it right. Maybe you could be one of the ones who comes on board and helps us make sure we keep it right.
Chad: I think it's important to understand that companies, I believe, are starting, especially these sort of companies because we're talking about Wells Fargo, Facebook, and Uber, who ... they're all service oriented companies. They know that people who perspectively might work for them are also are their customers. So, at the end of the day, I think there's more of a holistic understanding of what employment means that candidates aren't candidates. They are customers, too, and these three companies actually go it and it's one of the reasons why I'd really like to just see the employment brand, let's say, kind of fade because it's so important to understand there's more of a holistic feel.
Chad: Yeah, you gotta be able to talk about how it feels to work there, but it's more than just that. It's about the product, it's about the mission, the objectives, the culture, and I think these ads did a good job, but that was because they were service oriented or product oriented.
Joel: I agree, and you know who else is service and product oriented?
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Joel: Is this the tagline or is this your own?
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Joel: Yeah, I like that. Like that. Let's go a little dumpster diving in our next talk in the irrelevant category. Your old stomping grounds. Directemployers and .jobs. USNLX. What's up?
Chad: So, it's interesting. I had an email forwarded to me and it seems like this is about the time frame that the Employ Media, which is the company who owns the .jobs domains, the entire top level domain of .jobs, and Direct Employers ... they had an agreement going.
Joel: Can you give us 10 seconds on the history of that because you were a part of it.
Chad: Yeah. So, Employ Media really wanted to focus on driving really, corporate content through a, corporate content meaning jobs, through their .jobs domain because it just made sense and they felt like if you could get pure, good, non-duplicated, non-spammy content, that Google would love it. So, we had starting out 40,000 domains and we spun up 40,000 .jobs domains. Boston.jobs, indianapolis.jobs, sales.job, indianapolissales.jobs, et cetera.
Joel: Employ Media, by the way, has the license to sell .jobs domains. So when you're buying a .jobs domain, their licensing that to you, right?
Joel: So they partnered with Direct Employers to basically do what you just said.
Chad: Yeah, and it seems like it's probably around the time where the agreement is over because I've just seen an email that was forwarded to me that says that Direct Employers is moving their job site us.jobs, which is ... that's a pretty damn good domain, US, United States, .jobs.
Joel: It's been around a while if nothing else.
Chad: Yeah, it's been around for a while, and they're moving it to usnlx.com. We always give organizations shit because the .io and the ai.io.ai, whatever, but in this case they've had that job site on that domain for at least five years, around there. Probably even more.
Chad: So there's history and trust that they're just blowing out the window when it comes to google and SEO and obviously search engine ranking.
Joel: And also, we talked about find.jobs, right?
Chad: Oh, yeah.
Joel: Which was sort of their own Indeed backfill thing. So, there has been divorce, I guess, happening gradually here on some levels. Would you say that's true or not?
Chad: It looks like it. I don't know that it's true, but I would say from all of these different moves that we're seeing. They're moving from an awesome domain that they've had for years entirely, completely, brand-spanking new domain that's gonna take a very long time to be able to earn trust and, obviously, to have history, but we're also seeing privateservice.jobs, landing.jobs, we're seeing all of these job boards popping up on the .jobs domains, which didn't happen before.
Chad: So, it seems to me that everything is happening around the severing of a relationship and they're going their separate ways.
Joel: So, USNLX, just for those who don't know, is US, United States, National Labor Exchange, correct?
Joel: Which is so intuitive. It's just so obvious. I wouldn't agree with you that us.jobs was a great domain. I doubt that if you went to a thousand people in the street and said, have you ever heard of us.jobs, that they would say yes, but I'll defer to you on terms of SEO and search because you we're seeing the metrics back in the day and you could gradually see where it goes ... where it would be today. Also interesting, we got wind of a new site or service that Direct Employers launched. I don't know if we heard about it at their annual meeting that happened recently. I love the logo. The name not so much. Recruit Lobster. Recruit Chicken. What was it? Recruit Rabbit?
Chad: Recruit Llama.