EUROPE: Adevinta Smacks Axel Springer!
The European market is poppin' hotter than a dinner date between Angela Merkel and Vladimir Putin.
This episode, the boys invite the angriest Scot they know in Adam Gordon to come on the show and share a few thoughts. It helps counter Lieven's more laid-back, collegiate demeanor as they discuss topics ranging from Adevinta's latest acquisition of eBay Classifieds Group, making it a Top 3 classifieds player, to talking about growing pay inequality throughout the continent to opining about the current state of Swiss sex workers. And if that wasn't hot enough... soccer, er, football. Or is it futbol?
Such a complex place Europe is. Enjoy!
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by:
Chad and Cheese Podcast Does Europe Intro (5s):
Some podcasts, do it for the fun. Some do it for the fame, Chad and Cheese they do it for global effin domination. That's why bringing America to its knees was just the beginning. Now they have their eyes set on conquering Europe and they've drafted industry veteran Lieven Van Nieuwenhuyze of Belgium to help them navigate the old country and bring HR's most dangerous podcast across the pond to trash-talk like never before. Not safe for work in any language. The Chad and Cheese podcast does Europe.
Joel (38s):
Oh yeah. Guten tag, my Kinder. You're listening to the Chad and Cheese Podcast Does Europe. I'm your cohost Joel "I'll never be Royals" Cheeseman.
Chad (49s):
And I'm Chad, "show me some of that football" Sowash
Joel (53s):
On this episode, a major global reshuffle in online classifieds, wage inequality is a problem in all kinds of languages and Swiss sex workers. Still the world's oldest profession, you know, in case this whole podcast thing doesn't work out.
SFX (1m 10s):
Europe has a bunch of countries in it.
Joel (1m 13s):
Show number two, boys, how are we doing?
Chad (1m 15s):
You've forgot Lieven.
Joel (1m 16s):
I know Lieven. Lieven, forgot, Lieven.
Lieven (1m 20s):
I shouldn't be forgetting myself.
Joel (1m 23s):
Pretend you're the Germans invaded Poland in the future. That's how you got to work with us Americans. You gotta be bold.
Chad (1m 29s):
Probably. Probably not a good idea. So let's go ahead. Let's, jump into football right out of that. We invoked Adam Gordon's name a few times last week. So we have a special guest host, Adam Gordon on the show.
SFX (1m 43s):
Welcome to all things Scottish our slogan is if it's not Scottish it's crap!
Joel (1m 48s):
Is Adam still there?
Adam (1m 49s):
Yeah, absolutely. I'm excited to be here. Thanks so much for having me.
Chad (1m 54s):
Yeah, I bet you are. So the Scots and Walsh are out. Are you going to be rooting for England against Germany or is it anybody but England?
Adam (2m 4s):
Yeah, we've got a well-known acronym in Scotland, A.B.E. Anyone But England, I was really delighted with England's draw in the next round against Germany.
Joel (2m 17s):
Can they beat Germany?
Adam (2m 18s):
Because Germany always wins.
Chad (2m 20s):
No way.
Adam (2m 20s):
Germany always wins the weight on penalties and after like 300 minutes of play generally will still win.
Joel (2m 27s):
So I've done a little bit of homework, Adam, just a little bit. It looks like England's record in this tournament is better than Germany, but as Germany to spin in a tougher division, is that why you're predicting or Germany?
Adam (2m 38s):
I don't know. I mean, I don't, I'm surprised that England's record in this tournament's better than Germany's is. I don't think England's ever won it and I'm pretty sure Germany has won it. I really enjoyed 1996. I was at the game. It was the semifinal and it was England against Germany. And my dad and I were both there in our kilts. Unbelievable. The English fans didn't really appreciate us being there.
Joel (3m 5s):
What the hell does that look like? Lederhosen and a kilt? Wow!
Adam (3m 10s):
Probably a mix that should never happen.
Joel (3m 12s):
Lieven has a whole closet full of Lederhosen.
Chad (3m 16s):
You also have to realize that Germany was in the hardest group in this, in, in getting out of getting out of the groups.
Joel (3m 25s):
Yeah, that's what I meant. So they play five games, right? Something like that.
Chad (3m 28s):
Well, they, had to get through France, Portugal, and Hungary themselves. Now they're actually on the easy side of the bracket. If they get through England, the Netherlands have already done dropped off.
Joel (3m 40s):
If Lieven's a little quiet it's because he's hung over from the upset of Portugal.
Lieven (3m 44s):
Slight hangover, I told you.
Joel (3m 47s):
Is Belgium like a favorite now?
Lieven (3m 49s):
Yeah,
Chad (3m 49s):
They were a favorite before, Belgium was actually ranked above Portugal in this one. So.
Lieven (3m 55s):
Belgians ranked number one in the world. Number one football team in the world. And to me, Belgium is the second favorite, I think France is probably the favorite.
Chad (4m 2s):
What about Italy? Italy is looking pretty tough. They didn't look great the other day, but they're looking pretty tough.
Adam (4m 8s):
They're a dark horse. They're a young team and they've got, they've definitely got a chance. So it'd be an upset. It'd be a surprise if they won. It would be very cool!
Lieven (4m 18s):
When play against Saturday. Is it Monday?
Chad (4m 20s):
Yeah. It's soon. It is very soon. I mean, and again, Belgium got screwed in the upper left-hand quad. It's going to be like a slaughter house. Whoever gets out of that, will have France to deal with in, the semi's. Right? That's ridiculous. How were the teams actually picked? Because that didn't look like a fair draw at all.
Adam (4m 41s):
No it's out of a hat. They put all the, they put all the teams into like a big bowl and then they have a big ceremony with like hundreds of people getting prompts, sandwiches and coffee cups of tea and their suits and ties. And then they get a model or a pop star or somebody who fills out the names and that, yeah. You're right. Sorry. Yeah. Joel, when you said that, you know, England's got a better result in this tournament. That's because England had the easiest possible group. Alpha Scott. They had Scotland. Yeah. They had the Czech Republic, Croatia and Croatia. Pretty good. Czech Republic actually did very well. The other night beating the Netherlands.
Lieven (5m 18s):
Exactly. They killed the Netherlands yesterday.
Chad (5m 20s):
Well the red card didn't hurt. Right? When you get a red card and get a dude booted. Yeah. That's that that's gonna, that's gonna help out a little bit, but what about Hungary, man? They had 67,000 plus attendees in the stadium. You've got the Delta variant, like running mad from what I hear throughout Europe, is this gonna continue to happen? I mean, everybody who came in had to have a COVID passport, I guess. And they had to beat, they had to demonstrate that they had their shot. But do you see full stadiums continuing during this tournament?
Lieven (5m 57s):
Yesterday, they weren't full that much as I saw, they were empty, sometimes.
Adam (6m 2s):
Different countries, different rules, different rules in different countries. We're all in different phases of coming out of this or,
Joel (6m 8s):
Or, yeah. They're like, they're like states. I think Americans just think Europe is one big unified place. Cause you call it the Europe unification or the EU. So yeah.
Lieven (6m 18s):
Yeah. That was really, really looking forward to it. Russia versus Ukraine, two countries on the verge of war.
Adam (6m 24s):
Where are they playing? Are they playing in Crimea?
Chad (6m 26s):
Playing in Crimea? Yeah. That's a good idea.
Joel (6m 29s):
Yeah. Did you guys have any, did you guys care about the Biden/Putin meeting or was that sort of a yawner?
Lieven (6m 35s):
Oh, we watched this.
Joel (6m 36s):
And did Biden perform as a Europe had hoped he would.
Lieven (6m 39s):
He doesn't insult Putin this time, so we were a bit disappointed. He wasn't insane. He was a killer and et cetera. So yeah,
Joel (6m 47s):
He also didn't give him a tongue bath like our last president did.
Chad (6m 52s):
He gave him more than a tongue bath.
Adam (6m 55s):
But it would have been so much fun though. Cute. And it just guy, a wrestling match and said, right. Okay. You, you and me, you guys go and like full wrestling over.
Chad (7m 4s):
Come on man. Surprised he actually came to the press conference with a shirt on, to be quite Frank. I thought he would have come in on a horse. Yeah. With no shirt on, you know.
Joel (7m 19s):
He looks. So put out for that meeting. Like he was so mad to be there.
Chad (7m 23s):
He was because he generally doesn't have to answer questions from press, unless they're, I mean, if they're his press and you know, they're going to ask the questions that he allows asked.
Joel (7m 33s):
Speaking of not happy, I got a lot of flack for my Beamery commentary about there recent fundraising.
Chad (7m 40s):
What kind of flack?
Joel (7m 42s):
Well, I was kind of negative on the company and Adam in particular was quick to tell me that I sucked and he's a huge fan.
Adam (7m 52s):
I'm not sure I've said anything other than I completely agree with all of it, that you said. The only thing is, I mean, I don't think they're going to be losers, which is what I think you said. I don't think that, absolutely. Sure, they're not going to be as a CRM because the world does not need recruitment CRM as a category of technology. So, you know, you've got applicant tracking systems that are building their own folders effectively. So you don't need a CRM if you've got an iCIMS or if you've got a Smart Recruiters, you just don't need a CRM. Where it's still adding loads of value, I guess, is if you've got to work are a success factors, but both of those have either built or are in the process of building the same type of functionality.
Adam (8m 34s):
But what Beamery has to be using is not what it was or what it is today.
Joel (8m 39s):
So I think when you raise that amount of money, you know, as from my perspective, you know, bells go off and say, look, when you raise that much money, you either have to go and you have to go IPO, or you have to sell your, the number of buyers that can gobble you up becomes much smaller. So, I guess my perception or critique of a company changes when they raise that much money, do you, as a European Lieven and Adam, both, when you see a company raise that much money, do you guys think the same thing? Like, oh, they have to have a liquidation of intercut you get bought by a very few number of companies, or do you think something different?
Lieven (9m 14s):
Oh, it depends.
Chad (9m 15s):
Depends on what?
Lieven (9m 15s):
I guess depends on what the type of company, and their ambitions, what they plan to achieve.
Chad (9m 20s):
So take a look at Beamery and you, I mean, House of HR, you guys have done four acquisitions this year, so take a look at Beamery and give us kind of like your honest assessment on, you know, your thoughts around that space, being CRM, moving to ATS, what are your thoughts on it?
Lieven (9m 38s):
They claim to be a talent operating system, and it sounds a bit like a disc operating system, but less eighties, but when Microsoft launched it back, then they ended up pretty well. So I think choosing the name, right? I guess talent operating system does sound cool. I've been trying to figure out what they're up to, but I have no idea.
Adam (9m 57s):
I want to know what talent operating system is. Does it operate the talent? So it actually controls the people. The individuals is that what talent operating system is?
Lieven (10m 8s):
A fancy name for like a full service agency, something like that I feel.
Adam (10m 12s):
To me, It's a terrible, terrible name to call any type of technology is that it operates the talent. I don't know who came up with that, but they need fired.
Chad (10m 21s):
Well, if you take it, take a look at Eightfold who came out with the tip, talent intelligence platform world, right? And then you've got Phenoms candidate experience, and then you've got Beamery with this operating system thing. They're all trying to come up with new names, or new ways not to say applicant tracking system.
Adam (10m 41s):
Whomever came up with a tip. Whoever came up with that, they also need fired. There is an established talent intelligence is an established process within recruitment, which, and they do not do talent intelligence. So that was the wrong description again. The toss and the tip both needs tossed into the tip.
Joel (10m 59s):
Toss in the tip.
Lieven (11m 2s):
I tend to agree with Adam, if you say Talent operating, it's like it's too harsh. You can nurture talent, but to operate talent does sound a bit fancy, almost.
Chad (11m 14s):
Tell me what you think about the convergence though, because we have now all of these quote, unquote CRMs and or matching platforms or whatever they are. They are taking a shitload of cash, which means they have to broaden out and they have to converge on the applicant tracking system. What are your thoughts around that?
Lieven (11m 29s):
Exactly. So it's like a very red ocean. I mean, I was a veteran company, launched an ATS system last week, a free one just to enable our clients to post our jobs better. So there are so many layers on the markets. And if you want to make a difference, you'll have to come up with something great. And then 138 million might help, but I'm not sure how they are going to do it.
Adam (11m 54s):
There's a third option. So you said that you said they either get bought by somebody, but at the end of the number of companies that buy them, do it starts to become smaller because of the amount of money they've raised, or they go for an IPO. The IPO option is something that they might do, but there's a third option, which is, they just become a walking zombie. That's very, very possible. If they've got game-changing ideas that they're going to spend that $130 million on, they've got a brilliant chance of being a huge player, you know, a big, big market player within recruitment technology. If they're out of ideas, they're a zombie, they're becoming a zombie like slowly.
Chad (12m 31s):
Well, everybody has ideas. It's all about prioritizing. And then being able to execute on them without getting too, too wide. And when you start taking money like this, you have investors coming in and pressing you to be able to do things that are on the fringe of quote-unquote vision. Right? So how do you stay disciplined to do what you need to be that expert in that one space, as opposed to be really shitty at everything else?
Adam (13m 0s):
Well, with $130 million, you don't. You have to go broad. You have to, the convergence that you've been talking about past the app, but they have to take in take over the applicant tracking system area because you know, the one doesn't, the world does not need recruitment CRM, all the ATS's are building it. Even Workday is building it, which is really interesting as well, because what, they obviously invested a lot of money into Beamery. So, I mean, the supposition was that they were going to acquire Beamery at some point, which they haven't done. And they're literally going to probably 138 million. Now they can still buy it, but thought they had done it, <something Scottish>, rather than somebody else investing.
Chad (13m 38s):
You would have thought so. Right? Well, what do you think Lieven?
Lieven (13m 40s):
It's just too easy today to get money. There's so much money in the markets. And sometimes I feel those investors are actually looking for someone who they can spend it on. Our own company, for example, when the whole COVID experience started our management dots, eh, we're going to get all the cash we can just to make sure. And we ended up referring that million. And now we have a big fund to do some acquisitions because maybe we just saved the bit on the expenses. And when we got some credits, so now we are on the lookout as well. And as you mentioned, we did four M and A's this year, plenty more to come. It's just the perfect day today to get money and to buy companies.
Lieven (14m 24s):
But I'm not sure how long it will last. And as you say, with companies getting that much money too easily, if you become a zombie company, it's easy to get paid for a few years before the investors, get to know it.
Joel (14m 37s):
And speaking of a lot of money.
Chad (14m 40s):
TOPICS!
Joel (14m 43s):
Big news apparently out of Europe, out of Adevinta. And I'm apparently saying that correctly because our European guests told me so. The Oslo-based marketplace, operator last week announced it has completed a $9.2 billion cash and stock acquisition of eBay Classifieds Group. The biggest deal in the history of classifieds, everybody. The transaction has created a company with annual revenue of around 1.6 billion euros. That's based on 2019 results. Adevinta now becomes a whole new company that almost doubles in size. Here are a few of the other highlights. This deal catapults Adevinta from number 11 in classified revenue globally to number three, thereafter, Recruit Holdings are buddies who own Indeed and Glassdoor and fiftyeight.com.
Joel (15m 33s):
I believe out of China, this also based on 2019. It establishes a near dominant classifieds company across Western Europe with the leading horizontals in each of the big five economies. It also ends any ambition process, which we've been talking about, making a lot of acquisitions lately. Any ambition they have to become a major player in Europe and a truly global operator across both emerging and developed markets. And it also ends Axel Springer's ambitions to become the European leader in classifieds and brings a new level of competition to its home territory in Germany. So, yeah, it sounds like a pretty good, pretty big deal. What are the Europeans on the show?
Adam (16m 14s):
It's great for European companies that they're buying American businesses because normally it happens the other way around people, what some people, especially in America, but people don't realize is Europe has twice the population of the USA in half of the land space. So it's a very, very complex territory. And so as a result and because there's so many different languages and things like that. As a result, there's so many business opportunities here you can, that you could, you know, you can target different countries. You can target different professional interests, personal interests, there's all sorts of ways of slicing it up and then you can slice it up a bit more so, the opportunities are probably bigger than they are in the USA for a few different reasons.
Adam (16m 56s):
Adevinta is a company that I know a little bit about because they, one of my customers, generally people have not heard of them because they're better known by their brands and in the UK, they're not very well known because I think their main brands are in Spain and France and Germany and other places so they don't really have an awful lot of presence in the UK.
Joel (17m 14s):
What are some of their bigger, more well-known brands in the, in the continent and particularly job search ones in particular? Are there any that stand out?
Lieven (17m 21s):
Info jobs in Spain, that is the one I know. And another one is <inaudible> in the Netherlands, but that's mostly just classifieds, but it's really a fragmented. I think jobs is just a rather small part of what they're doing.
Joel (17m 36s):
So on the US side, it was eBay classifieds anything that you guys thought about when you advertised or looked at competitors?
Lieven (17m 44s):
Not me.
Adam (17m 46s):
No, no. Here either no
Joel (17m 49s):
Impacts Canada on our side with Kijiji, which is a huge cost of flights online there in Canada. But I guess Kijiji, wasn't a thing over in Europe?
Adam (17m 59s):
No, no time.
Chad (18m 1s):
They have a very diversified portfolio. I mean, if you take a look at it across geographies, verticals, notably Germany, France, Netherlands, Spain, Canada, Brazil, I mean really didn't have anything at all in the US. This is a big impact. The big question is, do they start reaching out into the job space at all? Or is that not even relevant to them because they're more into selling other things
Joel (18m 27s):
Personally, I think it has to be, I mean, classifieds online, whether it be, you know, whatever industry jobs is going to be a component of that. And I think that when you look at, you know, Recruit Holdings is in that list of the top three, I think it would be in Adevinta's best interest is to start getting into recruitment. And I wouldn't be surprised from our perspective that with the new money and sort of, you know, gravitas that this company will command is that if, you know, they don't maybe go gobble up a Beamery or an Eightfold or make a big impact or big acquisition, maybe a ZipRecruiter to really sort of stake their claim in the employment sector.
Chad (19m 7s):
Is that where Axel Springer starts to really hedge and they start to gain more market because they focus on the job side of the house where it seems like Adventa is a kind of, they have a blind spot right now?
Adam (19m 21s):
Is Recruit Holdings number one, did you say in the world for classifieds and Recruit Holdings, do they only do recruitment?
Joel (19m 28s):
It's based on classified revenue? So, yeah. Recruit Holdings is number ones too. Obviously jobs is their number one. I don't even know if they're in anything else, but in revenue, that's the list.
Lieven (19m 39s):
Adevinta and Glassdoor are the companies you can compare to this one, than, they might be big, but it's, in my opinion, something different. You can't compare Indeed with, let's say Infer Jobs in Spain.
Joel (19m 52s):
But does Adevinta sort of make some big moves now with the enhanced revenue to make a big move in recruitment? I mean, is there anyone in Europe that you guys would say, wow, if they bought them, that would be a huge deal?
Adam (20m 5s):
Yeah. If they bought Axel Springer. Step and then total jobs and all that, but again, it's very like probably a bit, unlike the USA, it is much more country focused. So the, the biggest, like outside of Indeed the biggest job boards in the UK are not anywhere else. Like read is I think probably number one after indeed. And then I know there is nowhere else. It's only in the UK to full jobs. I'm pretty sure it's the biggest in tech and I'm pretty sure it's nowhere else inside the UK and it'll be the same. We're Levin is and yeah,
Lieven (20m 43s):
It's really a very fragmented and there are many local players who are dominant just in their own region and you have a few global players, like Indeed, for example, but not that many.
Adam (20m 52s):
I mean, StepStone, for example, must be number one, the number, number one, European like job board, but I'm pretty sure it's not in the UK. It is certainly not one that any of my customers use regularly.
Lieven (21m 5s):
And young people just don't know StepStone anymore. It's not as bad as with Monster, but one out of two has never heard about StepStone, graduating now. So it's also old school.
Chad (21m 14s):
Wow. That that's, that's big. So 50% of the people that are actually graduating don't know StepStone, is that what I just heard?
Lieven (21m 21s):
But I can only speak for the Belgium market in this. I'm going to do more research on the surrounding countries, but I can see why it would be different than the Netherlands or Germany, but, Germany may be. Yeah, it's our biggest market. So they're advertising a lot, but to young people graduating now, they never heard about StepStone here because they don't advertise anymore. It's just too expensive.
Joel (21m 43s):
So Adevinta's move would be to gobble up a bunch of smaller fish is what you're saying.
Lieven (21m 48s):
It's what they already for our brands. So come buy a few more and act local.
Adam (21m 54s):
It depends if they think recruitment is a strategic opportunity for them.
Chad (21m 58s):
Because there's money there.
Adam (21m 60s):
Yeah. But a lot of media businesses think it's so fickle and it's such a, it changes, it changes too much. It's non predictable. It's not easy to control. It's completely linked to economies which are out of their control. So it kinda kind of depends whether or not it's a strategic, you know, priority.
Lieven (22m 19s):
I agree like recruitment is difficult because you have no, no loyal candidates. People are looking for a job. They find a job and they hope never to be having to look for a job again. So when you're a newspaper and you can convince someone to become a reader, then you can have them for years. And if they reached the classifieds for the cars, et cetera, they can buy several cars and whatever. But with jobs it's difficult, you constantly have to focus on new potential candidates, new clients. So, it's really expensive to keep advertising
Adam (22m 53s):
Investors. I mean, talking to, for my own knowledge of talking to like VC firms, I probably one and two VC firms I've spoken to, but investing in my company over the last couple of years, I've said, yeah, recruitment is just of no interest to us. It's of no interest to, and I've asked them why and they've often said, it's because it's unpredictable, it's too fragmented. It's difficult to predict what's going to happen with it.
Chad (23m 16s):
That's why you diversify. Right. I mean, that's what it's all about. And then you take a look at like at Adevinta's their portfolio. It's incredibly diversified. So my question is, are we looking in the wrong space? Are these organizations really looking long-term to challenge Google, to have all the classified information instead of like Levin said, you know, we're not always looking for jobs.
Adam (23m 39s):
That's right.
Chad (23m 40s):
But all with all the other classified information, this could become closer to a lifestyle platform then just going over to Indeed for jobs. Right. So do you think this could be perspectively a play to be able to gain Google share?
Adam (23m 54s):
Again, as a board, as a boardroom, that's a boardroom question, but given the amount of money that's going into it, there's a definitely a strategy which is around data.
Joel (24m 4s):
I mean, Chad, we've talked about, you know, talent.com, which is now, you know, a top 10, if not, top five now trafficked job search engine. And I know Jubal is a player globally as well. I can certainly see Adevinta looking at Recruit Holdings, strategy of getting, you know, sort of a job search platform that's growing and already has a ton of traffic that is probably affordable for them and making a move like that.
Lieven (24m 30s):
Maybe we should just talk to them.
Joel (24m 31s):
Well hat takes work Lieven, come on, man.
Lieven (24m 35s):
But it's interesting to see where they came from. They used to be part of Shipstats, which was a major, and still is a major newspaper publisher in the Nordics. I think Norway I'm sure. And when I was writing for a Belgium newspaper company 20 years ago, and I worked for job ads, which is still is the biggest job site, the local job site, we looked at Ship Stats and they were the most innovative people back then. And they launched Adventa and they let it go someday or better apparently did it. Well, you have to reckon those were the days when people and newspaper companies were still thinking, no one is ever going to read a newspaper on a screen, but they believed in it.
Lieven (25m 16s):
And they launched all those platforms and the end, they were totally right.
Joel (25m 20s):
We'll go talk to Adevinta when they fly us to Oslo. How's that, how's that sound?
Chad (25m 24s):
I'm in for that.
Joel (25m 25s):
I'm in for that. All right. Let's get into some wage inequality issues there in the UK. You remember last show, we talked about the UK having issues with workers, primarily from an immigration perspective. And now Germany is a, in the news big time. So a lack of staff across Europe is hampering the reopening plans of hotels, restaurants, and bars, which threatens to hold back an unexpected economic rebound as vaccinations accelerate, and COVID-19 restrictions are eased further. Some managers in the sector say they may raise wages to attract workers. What a concept? What are you guys seeing in terms of broader European pay inequality and staffing issues across the continent?
Adam (26m 7s):
Well, the UK is a bit, a bit different to most of mainland Europe in that we opted out of being part of something that was actually really successful for us. And, Tim Martin. I really like this. Tim Martin, who's the founder and CEO of a big pop company in the UK called Wetherspoons. He was one of the, sort of a big voices advocating that the UK should leave the European Union. And now he's one of the big voices advocating to changing the immigration laws so that we can get more people from the EU coming into the UK to work in his bars, a bit of a bit of an irony there. But our challenge definitely is in the UK that we don't have as many really talented and brilliant people coming from the EU as we did.
Chad (26m 54s):
So in, I mean, in the U S we have, obviously we have this big issue that we don't have pay transparency. And thus, it it's really hard to focus on pay equity if you don't know where the problems are at. Right. So I was actually on, on Twitter this weekend and a business leader from Europe actually tweeted, I don't advertise a salary. I think it's limiting until, you know, the candidates, what they value and how the job might be shaped to their strengths and purpose. Now, right out of the gate, this, I thought the guy was from the U S to be quite Frank, because that's how we've engineered inequity for years.
Chad (27m 39s):
I was surprised to see this come out of Europe. And there's also a new proposal by the European commission on transparency. Now that I would assume is not going to encompass the UK now that the UK is doing the Brexit. But what about Europe overall? Is there a movement to transparency in some, in some countries? Is it mandated? How does, how does it work and how do you guys deal with that? How do you navigate all that?
Lieven (28m 9s):
It's weird that you say, because we always look at the US as an example of equity.
Chad (28m 14s):
We suck.
Lieven (28m 15s):
And it's weird too, because if you look at Glassdoor or Indeed, or the other sites, whenever there is mentioned wage or a, how you call it a fork with a less, from this salary to that one.
Chad (28m 27s):
Yeah.
Lieven (28m 27s):
Always in the U S we don't do it in Europe, we're starting to do it now. And one of our companies is actually pushing it because people would like to have it published everywhere, but in most European countries, you will never see a salary in a job advertisement. So it's hush, hush, people don't talk about salary, which is easy for HR, of course.
Chad (28m 48s):
You're seeing that on Glassdoor though. And Glassdoor actually artificially injects salary range into most of those jobs that was not put on the actual job description by the company.
Lieven (28m 59s):
Yeah. We actually started filling in those ranges because of Google for jobs and because of, yeah, so they did a good thing.
Joel (29m 8s):
That strikes me as strange because I think most Americans consider Europe very progressive. And over-regulated probably in the fact that there's never been legislation created to require salaries or salary ranges on jobs is kind of surprising to me.
Lieven (29m 24s):
There is a minimum wage, and that's a very good thing, but there's not a maximum one.
Joel (29m 29s):
Yeah.
Lieven (29m 30s):
That's a good thing too.
Joel (29m 31s):
And Adam, it sounds like the UK issue is more about, we don't want to pay people more. We just want to get more people that will take less into the country. Whereas maybe the mainland Europe, is more, they might have to raise salaries because they already have the immigrants. Am I right about that or no?
Adam (29m 47s):
The UK has got some problems, as I think everybody knows, and one of those problems to my mind is that it's becoming more like the USA when it comes to aspects of employment. And so that person, I'm not surprised that that was somebody in the UK who said, look, I don't want to advertise my salary because I want to see what the people are bringing and then I'll decide what I want to pay them based on who's bringing what. That would be a, probably a small company view of what to do. So I would be surprised if that person was not running a small business. And so, you know, they're looking at those kinds of details on a hire by hire basis, rather than having set policies.
Adam (30m 28s):
They probably don't have any policies in that company. I do think in general, and I'm not taking this upper level in terms of the subject, but, we in the UK are taking capitalism a little bit too far. And we've got scenario where the richer are richer than ever and the poor are poorer than ever.
Chad (30m 45s):
Join the club.
Adam (30m 47s):
That's not acceptable. And it's becoming, yeah, exactly. It's becoming very like the USA. And I don't like that. I like the way that things happen in certain parts of Europe, in Scandinavia and places like that, where, you know, there are better protections for people, there's less inequality. I think some countries like Denmark take it a bit far, Germany and France have taken a bit far in terms of their employment kind of employment rights. You can't really fire people, stuff like that. I think in the Netherlands is a little bit like that as well, but I am slightly concerned about the UK becoming too, too much like the USA when it comes to capitalism, although where I live in Scotland. They don't really want the majority of people don't really want that kind of ideology.
Chad (31m 30s):
What about unions? And I mean, because I know that here in the U S where we we've been busting unions for decades now, Belgium from a report that I read actually, 50% of the employees are in unions. Finland's like 74% Sweden 70%, but overall the EU average is 23%. So what do you think that has to do collective bargaining ensuring, you know, obviously equity, do you think that has a large impact as well? And has the UK also been busting unions?
Adam (32m 7s):
Unions have been getting eroded in the UK for a long time. There are going to think like the power of the use to, and one piece of evidence of that is that the, the unions control the labor party, which was for a long time, the number two political party in the UK. And I don't know what it number is just now, but you know, they're getting the votes from anybody really, but I personally support credit unions, and I think they ensure that companies treat people, right.
Joel (32m 40s):
So one of the big issues here in the states is sort of, you know, federal funds have been going into unemployment benefits for awhile where they typically don't, it's typically a state benefit. And a lot of the critique of not being able to fill jobs has been linked to, well, the fed just keeps spending money on people why would they want to go to work? So quite a few states in the country, seven recently, mostly red or conservative states have cut off the sort of federal funding for that hoping that, that would send people back to work. I think it's still a little too early on exactly how that's going to play out.
Joel (33m 21s):
But do you guys see in Europe, a big initiative to cut off unemployment funds that were linked to COVID what's the situation there? And do people think that cutting off more federal funding will lead to more people coming into the workforce?
Adam (33m 36s):
Well arguably unemployment benefits are generous in the UK. You've got parts of the UK where you've got 3, 4, 5 generations of unemployed, people that have never worked, and they're going to college in order to just to tick the right boxes so that they can continue to not work.
Chad (33m 53s):
How much do you guys give them a month in the UK? There's no fucking way an American can live off the shit that we get? Well, how much do you guys get?
Adam (34m 2s):
This is the thing I've been listening to your show the last few weeks. And I've been listening to this problem with getting people working in the U S because the unemployment benefits to do with COVID and I'm thinking, well, yeah, I mean, that's just like the status quo in the UK. You don't, you can earn as much for doing nothing as you can in most service jobs, you know, most service jobs are construction jobs or, you know, those types of roles.
Joel (34m 27s):
So what's the incentive to work?
Adam (34m 28s):
Pride, I guess, But also national insurance contributions. You, you get, you get national insurance contributions when you work and that contributes to your state pension and things like that. So there are, I mean, there are some benefits, but to working over not working, but it's not a terribly difficult life to not work.
Lieven (34m 48s):
You can't speak for the whole of Europe, but because it's really different and there are several legislations <inaudible> on the country. But just to give you an example, and I have to be very careful about what I'm going to tell you now, because unions and the temping industry are not the best friends. So I need to watch my language.
Chad (35m 8s):
Yeah. They're I mean, they're big in Belgium. I mean, the unions are?
Lieven (35m 11s):
Yeah, I'm good. Just one example, which I think I can tell. You know unemployment. How do you call it wages if you're an employee, okay. They are paid by the unions and they get a small percentage of every paid wage to just to be able to work. And the unions get some of the money. So they actually get better the more people are unemployed, that's something nobody's realizing, but the more people are unemployed, the better for those unions. So they protect their people and they don't activate them. If you're unemployed, if you don't want to work, they're not going to tell you, you should work because you're able to work and you're not getting money for doing nothing forever, they actually get richer the more people are unemployed.
Lieven (35m 58s):
And that's a terrible system in my opinion.
Joel (36m 0s):
Who is the toughest country, on people who don't work in Europe?
Lieven (36m 4s):
I think the toughest that I know of probably maybe, yeah. And on the Eastern European countries that are the softest I guess a France for example is <inaudible> they're going to strike it's. Something gets learned at school, I think. It depends. Did you in the US all the <inaudible jaunes> the yellow coats. It was like an activists,
Chad (36m 30s):
In France.
Joel (36m 31s):
Everyone in America thinks French don't work, but I don't, I don't know if they would think that the UK is, as Adam has portrayed it. I think that they probably think it's a little tougher in the UK. They already have written off France. And when we say socialism, it's usually connected to France in some way, if not Europe as a whole,
Lieven (36m 50s):
They kind of invented it. <inaudible>
Adam (36m 55s):
By the way, what I said about the UK, I don't want to say there's like masses of people who don't want to work. I mean, there are, if you don't want to work, it's not, if you don't want to work, you don't probably have to. But I think a lot of people who are unemployed they're unemployed because they can't work because they've got health issues or something like that. There are enough jobs for there's enough jobs for everybody. That's for sure.
Chad (37m 16s):
Plenty of jobs in Switzerland.
Joel (37m 20s):
Unless you're a sex worker. Apparently Chad, so our, our next story here. So Switzerland's highest court last week, rejected foreign sex workers, access to compensation for pay due to the Corona virus pandemic. I've said it so much in the last year, I can't even pronounce it anymore. Saying temporary workers were ineligible for short time work payouts due to their short stay. The court denied a request by an unidentified sex club operator in the Northeastern Canton of Thurgau, saying that maybe correctly, who's 30 workers were put out of work from March 17th until June 5th last year, when the club closed due to government measures to contain COVID.
Joel (38m 3s):
Because the workers were permitted to work in Switzerland for only four months, under the rules, allowing people from the European Union, Iceland, Lichtenstein, and Norway to work in Switzerland for a short time, the court determined they were ineligible for compensation. Ultimately the court said sex workers did not fit the criteria of employment. Guys aren't sex workers people too?
Chad (38m 25s):
Is that just a transient job? Because it seems like only immigrants are coming in to do it.
Joel (38m 33s):
No, let's ask Adam and leaving about sex workers and how transient it is. Guys do do women and sex workers just coming to town for a few months and then leave. Is that the status quo?
Chad (38m 45s):
The Swiss way?
Adam (38m 46s):
My question about this article is the focus on sex workers, just clickbait, because surely applies to anybody who's basically working on a short term visa or something like that. I mean, they're also only, you know, if I'm, if I'm what can in, there's a lot of different jobs, if I'm where there's only a short amount of time that they're actually going to be in the country. So I think for me, the focus of the sex workers is just to put it onto podcasts and stuff like that. But as far as I'm aware,
Joel (39m 15s):
What are you saying Adam?
Adam (39m 16s):
Sex workers prefer to like build up a clientele, you know, where they are and so a bit of like, long-term sort of, you know, working is the right thing to do, unless they're taking this or Tim Ferris kind of attempt to traveling the world and having sex for money.
Joel (39m 39s):
From an American point of view. I mean, this, these are not like legal jobs. So there is no sort of government benefits for being a sex worker, because if you're doing it, if it's not in places in Nevada, it's illegal. So there is, there are no benefits. So I think that's why there's some level of shock to read this story as an American is that wow, sex workers actually have these rights and in Europe, apparently they do. It's just a matter of they weren't here long enough.
Adam (40m 6s):
Yeah. I mean it's not an actual job in the UK. It's not like a, I'll rephrase that. It's not a job. You don't get your national insurance payments for being a sex worker in the UK. You know, your contributions aren't part of that. It's not an official job. It definitely is in some countries, but.
Lieven (40m 22s):
In Belgium and the Netherlands, it is?
Adam (40m 24s):
Yeah.
Chad (40m 25s):
Yeah. So that's what I was going to ask Belgium, Netherlands?
Joel (40m 28s):
And Switzerland.
Lieven (40m 30s):
Germany as well. Switzerland probably too, yeah. But I thought the problem with the Swiss government was they just didn't consider it work probably because of the high fun factor.
Joel (40m 41s):
Is it legal? Is it legal in Switzerland?
Lieven (40m 43s):
I guess so I'm not sure.
Chad (40m 44s):
It said that there's no real employment contract between the club operator and the sex workers. It seems as if there was a contract much like we have contractors and quote unquote statements of work, which the sex workers decide themselves on what services they're going to provide. If they had a contract, it sounds like this would be, this would be null and void, that they would actually have an opportunity to gain some of these entitlements?
Lieven (41m 13s):
The problem is it's illegal to exploit people. So the job where you own a bar and you put people to work, that's illegal. But sex working on <inaudible> is okay. But maybe it's not okay, but it's not illegal.
Adam (41m 27s):
I mean, could you imagine what the contract says in terms of like services you'd have to, you'd have to have a proper under contract. I think you need a job description so that you can make the contract to that. So that in the case of unfulfilling your, you know, fulfilling your duties, what do they exactly involve?
Joel (41m 44s):
Were these jobs posted on Adeventa?
Adam (41m 47s):
Probably.
Lieven (41m 49s):
Yeah probably. Those are the advertorials read most.
SFX (41m 55s):
Oh, Hell no.
Chad (41m 56s):
You're thinking of Penthouse forum.
Lieven (41m 58s):
Those are the things people actually look at first when looking at those little advertorials.
Adam (42m 3s):
The only problem I have with this whole industry is the exploitation aspects of it. Because of course it leads to human trafficking and people doing things.
Joel (42m 11s):
Slavery.
Adam (42m 12s):
Slavery, and all that kind of thing. I mean, if somebody's underage, if also, I guess the health aspect keeping up, but because if they're doing it in order to pay for some sort of substances, which they shouldn't be taking either there's aspects of that, which are bad, but other than that, there's nothing wrong with that industry. Yeah.
Chad (42m 29s):
So I guess, Joel, it seems fairly simple Adam and Lieven and we're all on board. All we need now are real employment contracts for sex workers and we should be good.
Adam (42m 43s):
I have given them I'd have given them the COVID payments. No problem. That's fine.
Joel (42m 47s):
Is that, is that all you would have given them Adam, Adam?
Adam (42m 49s):
Yes. Yes.
SFX (42m 50s):
Europe has a bunch of countries in it.
Joel (42m 54s):
What a large, strange, complicated continent Europe is.
Adam (42m 57s):
It is weird. I mean, it definitely is weird. 44 years living in it. And I still think is weird. Absolutely.
Joel (43m 4s):
And with that.
Chad and Joel (43m 6s):
We out.
OUTRO (44m 3s):
Thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast with Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of Shout Outs of people, you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any hoo be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. Is so weird. We out.