Looking for an episode as spicy as Nashville hot chicken sandwich? Then you’ve come to the right place. Heading into Day Two of Recfest, the boys keep things tight this week, thanks largely to hangovers and healing vocal cords. Topics include a rundown of Recfest, parties hosted by yours truly and insights into all things Nash-Vegas. There is news too, however, and the boys are covering stories from Grindr (yep, they’re back on the pod), Uber taking on TaskRabbit and a certain CEO in Australia saying the things about workers that all other CEOs are thinking. Grab some BBQ sauce, pour a glass of Jack and enjoy this week’s show.
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Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's Most Dangerous Podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast.
Joel Cheeseman: Oh yeah. It's National Double Cheeseburger Day. But when you're in Nashville it's Double Hot Chicken Day. You are listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. This is your co-host, Joel, pass the sweet tea, Cheeseman.
Chad Sowash: And this is Chad, someone get me a fucking aspirin, Sowash.
Joel Cheeseman: And on this week's abbreviated show from RecFest, CEOs get quiet, Grindr is back on the show and Uber chases a rabbit. Let's do this.
Joel Cheeseman: And my voice is tore up.
Chad Sowash: Feeling it, feeling it, feeling it.
Joel Cheeseman: Too many parties, yeah, shouting over everybody. Geez.
Chad Sowash: There's been a lot of shouting.
Joel Cheeseman: And it's not over. We got one more to do man. The pontoon booze cruise tonight.
Chad Sowash: Yeah, I don't think that one's gonna be as loud. There's not gonna be a band on board.
Joel Cheeseman: There is. Well, not a band but we have music. Yeah.
Chad Sowash: Okay. Music's fine.
Joel Cheeseman: Yeah, music. Everyone signed waivers. It could get ugly, dude. I don't know what's gonna happen.
Chad Sowash: It's gonna get ugly.
Joel Cheeseman: This may be the last episode that you'll ever hear.
Chad Sowash: It's gonna be ugly, yes. So three and a half hour drive down, we did the Tin Roof with Aaron app and with our friends over at Plum. We had about 40 people, 65 on the wait list who were literally in the bar. We had like this little roped off section.
Joel Cheeseman: Yeah.
Chad Sowash: And that just went completely off the rails after that. It was just like too many people. So just come on. Come on, come and enjoy.
Joel Cheeseman: Yeah, yeah. It was wild. I mean I don't think it's too ambitious to say that the two best parties that are gonna happen at this show are ours.
Joel Cheeseman: I don't think that's too ambitious. I really don't.
Chad Sowash: No, no. We actually had people leave another party that was happening while ours was happening, and they came to ours, and they were like...
Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. A corporate party.
Chad Sowash: Yeah. They were like that one was pretty lame. This is fucking rocking. Like well, we're on Broadway. We got hot chicken, free booze, again.
Joel Cheeseman: Oh, hot Chicken, we have hot chicken lollipops dude, come on.
Chad Sowash: Yes.
Joel Cheeseman: Doesn't get any better than that.
Chad Sowash: Little Plum love all the way through man. And then Dina Piro, as soon as we show up she starts rubbing my nose and beating me on the first week of fantasy football. Don't worry Dina, it's a...
Joel Cheeseman: Oh, I can't believe you brought up fantasy football, for the mere fact that you're in last place.
Chad Sowash: Yeah.
Joel Cheeseman: And you scored the lowest amount of points by a lot. Oh, man.
Chad Sowash: In both my leagues. I didn't hit a hundred points in either fucking league, dude. It was a bad week. It was bad.
Joel Cheeseman: Yeah, yeah. I got beat, but I'm happy with my team. I had like 130 or 40 points. [laughter] Look anyone that has the team that I played is gonna be tough to beat. There's a receiver in Miami who's pretty good. I don't know if you've heard of him?
Chad Sowash: Yeah.
Joel Cheeseman: Yeah, he's pretty good. But it's week one. It's a long season Chad, you can flip that last place to first place.
Chad Sowash: Day one of RecFest though was beautiful. It was about 80 degrees. We're gonna go ride the bull today. Okay, we couldn't yesterday. We were on stage pretty much all day yesterday. But that was, it was a great time. I kept hearing from people, I was like, What did you like about today's show? And they kept talking about I'm hearing new perspectives. Which is really weird, because they we go to so many shows. But getting RecFest into kind of like the groove here, into the mix here. There is gonna be new perspectives, new ways that people present just being at RecFest, versus all the other shows, which they all have their own personality. And that was really cool. And there are a lot of Europeans here by the way.
Joel Cheeseman: Do they have their own personalities though?
Chad Sowash: I think so.
Joel Cheeseman: I mean most of the conferences I go to the setup is pretty similar. Like go to a session, go get coffee in the expo hall...
Chad Sowash: The voices are different though, don't you think?
Joel Cheeseman: What I'm saying is RecFest is unique not just in the voices.
Chad Sowash: Oh, yeah.
Joel Cheeseman: And I don't think that those shows are that different. In fact I would say one of the major selling points of RecFest is it's not HR Tech, it's not SHRM talent, it's not the typical conference. And we knew that going in 'cause we had experience in London. But Americans, this is their first time. And we asked a sellout standing room only session that we had, who's been here before. It was about three or four. Like who's been in Knebworth? And there are very few hands that went up.
Chad Sowash: Nobody, yeah.
Joel Cheeseman: So this is gonna be new to a lot of Americans that are coming over. You're right. Weather's great. I think Nashville no one's owned it. I think it's a great hip town. I know we've talked politically that it's a little bit of a minefield, but we've talked like name us a state in America where nobody...
Chad Sowash: There's no such thing.
Joel Cheeseman: No one's gonna get pissed off.
Chad Sowash: There is no such thing.
Joel Cheeseman: Until we starred in some conferences in Bangor, Maine, which should be great for our show 'cause it'd be great one-liners, but until we have the Bangor, Maine conference, you're not gonna go anywhere in America where someone's not gonna get pissed off.
Chad Sowash: No. No. And I mean Nashville is very diverse. Yes, Tennessee is, it's got its problems. Hell, Texas, Florida...
Joel Cheeseman: Florida.
Chad Sowash: I mean all the different states that you would even think, Denver, right?
Joel Cheeseman: Yeah.
Chad Sowash: That you would think that you would want to go to. You're always gonna find problems. Just find where your vibe is. And I'm telling you man, this is a RecFest town.
Joel Cheeseman: I agree. I agree. Now, in terms of differences I wanna know your, get your take on what you saw that was different. So one, few things I need, I think they need to work on. So I asked about the Ferris wheel. Apparently with the Ferris wheel you have to drive huge nails into the ground, and there's like a water duct or something under the...
Chad Sowash: Irrigation system.
Joel Cheeseman: They were like, We would flood the whole city of Nashville if we put in the the bolts and whatever for the Ferris wheel. Also Ferris wheels in America are a lot more expensive than they are in England for whatever reason.
Chad Sowash: Not surprising.
Joel Cheeseman: Like 10x, 10x the cost. So they realize the visual aesthetic that a Ferris wheel brings. And they're gonna try I think to do something in the future that's similar to that. The other thing is like the paid bar, the bar should be open like it is in England. I don't know what the differences were, so you had...
Chad Sowash: Sponsor, they just need a sponsor on that. Yeah, I mean I think this is the first year.
Joel Cheeseman: You had Hackajob... Here's, let me paint the visual. You had Hackajob giving out tokens for free drinks. Okay. So you had one line at the bar which was like 20 deep, and then you had three cash registers for the cash bar which no one was in. So you had this huge single file line for people with tokens. So you gotta figure out the free drinks. Get a sponsor, get everyone lushed up by between three and five o'clock, because most people left before the band started. There were two bands last night. And I think most people probably bounced before that. If you have the the skyline of Nashville behind your conference, that's cool. But it's also a lure to get people out of the conference into downtown Nashville.
Chad Sowash: Broadway baby.
Joel Cheeseman: When you're on a farm in England, you're not going anywhere anytime soon, you're kind of stuck there.
Chad Sowash: No. You are.
Joel Cheeseman: So they kind of need to figure out how do we keep people there. Getting them lubricated with alcohol is one. And then kind of start the music early. Maybe get a DJ to get the vibe going. They need to figure that out.
Chad Sowash: I think you have that, but you just use what you have here and that's Broadway, right? And maybe you cut it off a little bit early. You have some music that's playing, all that other fun stuff. But you tell people to go out and enjoy themselves on the town and they'll come back tomorrow, right? I mean just, you can't fight it. You can't fight the magnetic lure of Broadway. And you shouldn't, because that's what makes Nashville such a great I think event town to be in, so yeah. One thing I do have though is I think the vendors that we see in London, they really put together like the games and I mean they really go all out. The vendors are gonna have to step it up here in the US, right? They are just not making muster like they do from the London show. It was funny 'cause Plum, I think they probably had the most traffic, because every female in the place wanted to go get their hair braided, get their hair done, get a little tinsel in it or something like that. And it was like that was like a huge draw. But we're used to like games and fun and all this stuff all over the place. There was that. It just was muted compared to that of London.
Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. I don't know how you get the... Some vendor needs to step up, Hackajob in London had the double decker booth, the exclusive party on top, the mixologist, someone needs to step up in that way so everyone follows suit, but yeah, the vendors need to get on it. This is not HR tech, this is not hangout in the exhibit hall. This is a party and the vendors have a big part in that. So you took the words right out of my mouth. The vendors need to step it up for next year.
Chad Sowash: Yeah. Well, and I gotta give it to Hackajob because they're going to be the booze cruise sponsor. They're the ones powering the booze cruise. So what they lacked in their double decker on the actual event, they're making it up for the booze cruise. But yes, we definitely wanna see that ratcheted up.
Joel Cheeseman: Yeah, no doubt. No doubt. We'll see you next year RecFest for sure wherever you are, we will be here. Allegedly 1,200 people got tickets, and they're hoping to ratchet that up to maybe 15, 1,600 next year. I think that's easy. I think this will go up to two. There's just too much FOMO, too much word of mouth, too much stuff going on. People will continue to to show up.
Chad Sowash: Oh, easy. Easy.
Joel Cheeseman: And these changes will be made. So if it's not obvious we're slightly hungover. I'm enjoying a coffee. If you're watching on YouTube Chad is wearing sunglasses. This is going to be an abbreviated show. We're nixing the birthdays, we're nixing the regular shoutouts, we're nixing the fantasy football leaderboard.
Chad Sowash: We'll get back to it, kids.
Joel Cheeseman: And anything else that you're used to, but yeah, enjoy this shortened show. Actually I need the news soundbite for that, don't I? Let's try this again.
Chad Sowash: Topics. Oh, you had it. Okay, I get it, okay.
Joel Cheeseman: I had it, I had it. I just pushed the wrong button.
Chad Sowash: No, no, it's good.
Joel Cheeseman: Hang over, hang over. Like I said, hang over. Okay.
Chad Sowash: I get it. I get it.
Joel Cheeseman: I wanna push the step bro sound bite so bad but I don't. Okay, so quick update before we get to topics Chad, we called it, we called it. What's up?
Chad Sowash: Yeah, no. Deel, this is from the information who actually we were talking about last week, Deel who is embroiled in a government crackdown on online trading sites have paused providing payout services to several businesses in that category as it conducts a review of their operations. End quote. Yes, we called it. These types of "trading companies" represent less than 1% of Deel's revenue. So it's best for optics and business. And remember to all those startups out there, we know you're moving fast. And sometimes like in this case you break shit. The key is cleaning up your mess after breaking. And that's what Deel is doing right now. So kudos to Deel.
Joel Cheeseman: Yep, yep. No doubt. Look they were highlighted in the Information, which is a subscription only online publication. Very influential. They're typically writing stories about Google and Facebook. The fact that Deel was in this was a big deal. Rippling, a competitor followed suit and said we're nixing all these prop trading firms from our portfolio. Deel followed suit, we called it. But it wasn't a real, it was kind of obvious that it was gonna happen. It happened quickly though. So kudos, kudos to Deel. Alright let's get to our first story.
Chad Sowash: Oh, this is fun.
Joel Cheeseman: This is mainly a soundbite that we're gonna play and comment on the other side. But I do want to give some context to this. This is Tim Gurner. Tim Gurner is CEO of the Gurner Group. So he probably owns the place or his dad did or something, there's some connection there.
Chad Sowash: Yeah, probably.
Joel Cheeseman: They're in Australia. They're an institutional grade private development design and lifestyle business, with a $10 billion portfolio that focuses on transforming landscapes and environments where people can live their best life. So basically it's a service for rich people to make them feel rich and remind them that they're rich, and probably have a lot of service people that work for them that cater to these rich folks. So we're gonna play the soundbite here and comment on the other side. Here we go.
Tim Gurner: I think the problem that we've had is that we've, we have... People decided they didn't really wanna work so much anymore through Covid. And that has had a massive issue on productivity. You know trainees have definitely pulled back on productivity. You know they have been paid a lot to do not too much in the last few years. And we need to see that change. We need to see unemployment rise. Unemployment has to jump 40, 50% in my view. We need to see pain in the economy. We need to remind people that they work for the employer, not the other way around. I mean there's been a systematic change where employees feel the employer is extremely lucky to have them, as opposed to the other way around. So it's a dynamic that has to change. We've gotta kill that attitude, and that has to come through hurting the economy which is what the whole global... The world is trying to do. The governments around the world are trying to increase unemployment to get that to some sort of normality. And we're seeing it, I think every employer now is seeing it. I mean there is definitely massive layoffs going off. People might not be talking about it, but people are definitely laying people off. And we're starting to see less arrogance in the employment market. And that has to continue, 'cause that will cascade across the cost balance.
SFX: Oh, fuck!
Joel Cheeseman: Alright Chad, take a breath and let us know what you think about Mr. Gurner's comments.
Chad Sowash: So I mean they're saying the quiet part out loud, and you know that every CEO is thinking this, right?
Joel Cheeseman: Oh, yeah.
Chad Sowash: It's just that some have much better optics and they're better at narrative. So here's the quote. You heard it. I'm gonna go over it again. We need to see unemployment rise. Unemployment has to jump 40 to 50% in my view. We need to see pain in the economy, end quote. We need to see pain in the economy. So those are his words. And now you know he isn't alone. He he didn't just conjure this up one day. This is what is talked about in rich people's circles. How do we get the peasants back in the fields? Pain. Pain is the answer. And let's get this straight. What pain actually is kids, unemployment rates rise. You don't have a job. No job. You go into poverty mode. Poverty equals pain, period. Right? And how do we strip the "arrogance" away from them? He's framing a living wage benefits, people wanting to be treated like humans as arrogance.
Chad Sowash: And this is something that rich people have had the money to really prop up, with the likes of the Milton Freemans of the world over the years, right? To have these people as kind of like their voice boxes. Now, they're coming out and they're saying the quiet shit out loud. And this kids is what every single fucking board of directors is talking about right here. This is it.
Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. You know I'm guessing the Gurner group is not publicly traded, because no public CEO would say some shit like this out loud.
Chad Sowash: Doubtful. No.
Joel Cheeseman: He's also Australian which mean he'd...
Chad Sowash: He felt comfortable.
Joel Cheeseman: Which means he survives 90% of the world's venomous animals. So he doesn't give a shit about what anybody says. [laughter] This is, let's be honest, the powers that be have hated the last two to three years. They've hated the power going over to labor. They've hated the work from home movement. The structure that they've gotten comfortable with of ownership and capital got screwed for the last two to three years. And they're taking it back. And this guy's comments are exactly what others are thinking. Look in case you missed it, Zoom, the work from home company is getting people back to the office. To me that's the quintessential sign that this shit is over. What is fascinating to me is that workers are somewhat fighting back. The UAW negotiations right now with with the auto workers, which I think is gonna be really tough for them, because of something called Mexico, and Mexico is opening up manufacturing with cars.
Joel Cheeseman: I know I think Mercedes and Volkswagen have just opened up some facilities in Mexico. That's gonna be a nuclear option that I think Ford and GM can use. Popular culture. You have a song called Rich Men North of Richmond that if you haven't heard it, take a listen. It's basically about the rich fuckers that are screwing us over and the workers' opinion of that. Ultimately rich people have money and poor people have votes. And the sad truth is like no politician on either side is really talking about workers and labor unions and cutting off Mexico or making it painful to do. We're stuck in this rut of talking about indictments, ageism, you name it. And maybe that's what the power structure wants. They want us kinda looking over here and not thinking about the real issues of workers and poverty and things like that. So this guy said it. Everyone is thinking it on the power end of things. And unfortunately unless people vote and put in people that are gonna protect their jobs, the money is gonna win here. And data says young people don't vote. Most people don't vote enough and money's gonna win if they don't vote. Period.
Chad Sowash: Yeah. But I think they can vote with their feet too. We'll talk about that at Grindr in a minute. But, the UAW they've actually talked about how the CEO got a 40% raise. And that was a fuck you to the employees, right? Especially after the employees and the union, literally, they capped salaries during COVID, during the hard times, right? So they capped and they kept everything low because they knew that there was a problem and they wanted to help out the car companies. And then guess what? The car companies stab them in the fucking back. The CEO takes a 40% fucking increase, right? And the funny part is we talk about the Rich men North of Richmond. Again, it's a division kind of a thing. What about the Rich men South of Richmond? What about the Rich men East and West of Richmond? This is all a ploy in trying to get the peasants to fight each other. I mean, it just, it drives me fucking crazy. And the horrible part is, what he's saying is true. The tools of government have to deal with inflation, with literally caveman like... I mean, they're using rocks and scissors for god's sakes. Raise interest rates. Well, who does that hurt? Does it hurt an asshole like this? No, it hurts people trying to buy cars, buy homes, you know, the common people shit.
Joel Cheeseman: Milk, eggs, bread. Yeah.
Chad Sowash: Yes. Instead of cracking down on the other side of the inflation problem with investigations on companies gouging. It's pretty simple. Just look at those companies quarterly profits and the calls where they are bragging about over-inflated profits. We aren't doing what we should to be able to ensure that these assholes like this understand that he's not the one doing the work. The people on the line are doing the work. They deserve pay, they deserve living wages. And another quote from The Guardian, which you will love, he's engaging in the ancient neoliberal habit of dehumanizing working people. It's almost like that guy who came down the escalator and called Mexicans murderers and rapists. Right? Breed division among the non-rich people. And then allow the peasants to fight it out themselves while assholes like this Watch from the safety of the ivory tower. It just, it drives me crazy. And the thing is, fucking people listening to this whole Rich men North of Richmond thing, they like that, that fear and that conflict. And it's like, guys, you're fighting the wrong motherfuckers.
Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. It's also fascinating in regards to leverage that workforces have, like we talked about the UPS drivers. People need packages. There's not a lot of competition to do that. Car companies, you have the EV revolution. You have a car company in Tesla that is not unionized. So it's not, it's not a level playing field, whereas it is for the UPS workers. So, this dynamic is gonna play out. And if you have leverage, you do. If you don't get your ass back to work, you're lucky to have a job is basically the mentality.
Chad Sowash: Well, that's the mentality. The problem is if jobs remain plentiful in the market, there's nothing they can do about it, other than do the stupid shit and lose great talent, and then say that that great talent was arrogant. So they left. They weren't arrogant. They just wanted fairness. That's all they're asking for. And watching, again, UAW CEO getting a 40% raise, while all the workers who are doing the hard backbreaking fucking work, they agreed to keep their wages low and now they want a piece of their own. And I get it, man.
Joel Cheeseman: Yep. Yep. It's going to Mexico. And mark my words, you're gonna hear political rhetoric around anti Mexico, or like cut Mexico off from these jobs. I think you're gonna hear that in 2024. We'll see.
Chad Sowash: Yeah. It's not gonna be focused on any CEOs or boards or any of that shit.
Joel Cheeseman: It's Mexico's fault.
Chad Sowash: It's all gonna be the little people. All the little people, baby.
Joel Cheeseman: Oh, man. I love that this is a theme show. This is like dark side of the moon. The whole theme is on this whole thing.
Chad Sowash: It is.
Joel Cheeseman: So we'll be right back, and holy shit, Grindr is back on the show everybody.
Chad Sowash: Again.
Joel Cheeseman: I know. Alright Chad, Grindr is back on the show, Chad. Grindr's return to office policy led to nearly half of its staff leaving. I'll say that again. Half of the staff leaving, the policy required employees to relocate to designated hub cities or leave with severance following a unionization effort. Grindr United Union filed unfair labor charges after 80 plus workers faced forced resignations due to a return to office policy following unionization alleging retaliation and silencing by the company. Remaining staff continues organizing. Chad, your take on Grindr news.
Chad Sowash: Have employers just lost their fucking minds? I mean, and not to mention Grindr is wanting now to try to start helping other companies with their hiring. Right? But they can't even get their own fucking house in order. Many of these workers who you'd actually said, they were hired to be remote workers, and now they're being forced to relocate. Is this a layoff in disguise? Could be, because they probably know that most of these remote workers are literally just gonna go ahead and take the severance. Right? And they're gonna say, well, didn't align with corporate culture. It was really just a layoff. Right? It was really a layoff. But even if this is a layoff tactic, you can't expect to know who's going to eject and who's gonna stay. And if you're getting rid of great top talent, I mean, this is just not how business is done.
Chad Sowash: Companies thought that they had a productivity problem before. This is just gonna exacerbate that problem. Low productivity has little to nothing to do with remote work. On the contrary, remote workers work more, the productivity problem lands squarely on the shoulders of leadership. They're losing people left and right. They can't fill positions fast enough. And the staff that have stayed behind are stretched way too thin, and they're doing everybody else's job who left. Right? So you are having a productivity problem, has nothing to do with the people working remotely, has to do with your stupid ass leaders who are playing these control issue games.
Joel Cheeseman: I blame Elon Musk. Elon laid off 80% of the tech support staff at X Twitter. And by most accounts hasn't lost a lot in terms of serviceability. At least that is the popular sentiment. Other big tech companies followed suit. And now we're seeing the Grindrs of the world. The app makers of the world follow suit. However, people hate the headline layoffs. They can avoid the headline of layoffs if they do this bullshit, if they say, we're back to the office. You gotta live in these hub cities. Sorry, I don't know if they offered relocation. Probably not. Just said, Hey, the party's over. You need to live, within a certain radius of a hub or a headquarters. And this is a very popular strategy. We're seeing this on a regular basis. It's very convenient. People just leave. You don't have, I mean, they're paying them severance, which is great, but a lot of companies aren't.
Joel Cheeseman: They're saying, good luck. Thanks for playing. And in the process, they get to reduce headcount. They make shareholders happy because they're following Elon's lead of being a much leaner tech company. And this is what you get. So the good news is startups are getting money. I mean, I look at the news every day, not just for employment, but who's getting money. Like we predicted, AI is gonna create so many more opportunities. A lot of these people are gonna start their own companies, their own apps. It's gonna be painful in the short term, but I think heading into next year, we're gonna see some exciting companies, some really great Startups that couldn't afford the talent that was working at Facebook and Apple. They're gonna start bringing these folks in, making them owners of the company. And we're gonna see some really exciting things happen. There's just gonna be a lot of pain for the next six to 12 months for a lot of workers.
Chad Sowash: Well, and we've talked about it. Those companies, the Facebook, the fan companies, they over-hired, they were literally trying to starve the market because they had so much fucking capital. Right? They're trying to, and this is, if you have the money, if you were a rich company like a Facebook or a Google, something like that, your profit margins are such that you can waste cash, right? And starving the market, your competitors of great talent is a way to do that. It shouldn't be legal, but how are you gonna fucking enforce something like that, right? But that's what's happened. And I agree a hundred percent. These people are gonna come back in the market. They're gonna work for startups, they're going to, they're gonna start their own companies. And we're just gonna see a lot of innovation come out of it.
Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. So our buddy at VanHack, Ilia, who's a big fan of the show, and I know he is listening for sure. Hi, Ilia. Talked to him. His job is to basically, bring tech talent and companies together, focused in Canada, which we all love. But he commented that he believed August was like the bottom in terms of hiring tech, and he thinks that from here on out, not necessarily hockey stick, but it's gonna trend up significantly. And I think, our sentiment, reflects that. So good times ahead, hopefully. And yeah, there's gonna be some real exciting stuff, I think in terms of new companies.
Chad Sowash: Well, and you've got this other asshole that we were just talking about who was like, we need pain in the market. You've got Marc Benioff who told MSNBC, "I'm a remote worker. I've always been a remote worker. My whole life. I don't work well in office. It just doesn't work for my, with my personality." We're going to see companies, some companies continue to treat their employees like adults, right? They're going to hold their feet to the fire with project deadlines, with goals, with all these things that we all as adults understand. And if we don't meet those marks, then we have the opportunity to get our ass fired. Right? But if we overachieve those, again, we're giving the people that we hired, we trusted them, we hiring them, we trust them in our company. Now we have to just allow them to do their work. And the problem is, most of these iron fist CEOs and management that's out there, they don't know how to manage this, they don't know how to manage it. And that is a problem of management and leadership, not of the employees.
Joel Cheeseman: Right. You know, there were a lot of tools early on that were supposed to solve this whole engagement and tracking and monitoring. Apparently they're not working as well as they promised. My hope is that all the new startups that are founded by these folks commit to remote work. Like they've been burned. Like they're gonna commit to not being in an office or having an office. And I think we're headed towards a two class company society where you're either, you're in the office or you're not. And we'll see, we'll see who wins that as it shakes out.
Chad Sowash: Well, I think there's a hybrid variable that's there too, where you allow somebody to actually say, Hey, look, when are you gonna come again? Cummins Engine Company in Columbus, Indiana, they have, they downsized their footprint from an office space standpoint. And you have specific days that you check in to say that I'm going to come into the office to work. Right? So that they know that they have enough space, there's a space management, those types of things. But they trust their employees enough as adults to say, look, when do you wanna come in? You know when, you know when your meetings are, you know when you should be in the office to do these things. And then when you don't, it's just, and that's been happening for years with Cummins.
Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. I think we have to get to some resolution to what work, like back to the office is, or return to office. 'Cause to me hybrid is back to the office. If I have to go to the office two, three days a week, that means I have to live within an area that I can get to the office.
Chad Sowash: Yeah. I agree.
Joel Cheeseman: Remote work to me is, my company is in Chicago, but I have a van and I just travel the country and set up shop at Airbnbs. Like, to me, that's remote work. If you go to the office at all, unless it's like, oh, once a month, we're gonna fly you into town and you're gonna work from the office. Like, to me, that's not remote work. So anyway, resolution in terms of what office is, office is at least one day a week that you have to be in an office. You're not a remote worker.
Chad Sowash: Yeah. If it's a mandate. Yes. I agree a hundred percent. Because if you can just, let's say for instance, I do work close to the office, but I do, like you said, I go to Portugal, work out of my place there, or an Airbnb, somewhere on the East Coast or West Coast or something like that. If I have the flexibility to do those things, that to me, again, the autonomy as an employee, as an adult, I think that that to me constitutes, remote work. But yes, if there's a mandate that you have to come into the office one time a week or what have you. Yeah. That is more of a return to office.
Joel Cheeseman: Right. Right. Maybe Uber will save us all. When we get back...
Chad Sowash: Oh, Jesus.
Joel Cheeseman: News out of Uber. Chad, have you taken an Uber since you've been here in Nashville?
Chad Sowash: Lyft. I've taken Lyft.
Joel Cheeseman: Lyft, much cheaper. Yes. I cost compare.
Chad Sowash: Yes.
Joel Cheeseman: And Lyft always is cheaper, so if you can do it, Lyft tends to be the selection. Anyway, rideshare app Uber is reportedly working on a service similar to TaskRabbit, allowing users to hire people for various tasks beyond driving and food deliveries. The potential new service code named Chore was discovered in the hidden code of Uber's iPhone app. Users can hire a tasker for a minimum of one hour. Specify the task duration and preferred arrival time, and the app will calculate the cost based on the task's time requirement. Chad, what's your take on Uber taking it to the rabbit?
Chad Sowash: The quest for Uber's continual profitability, you know, profitability, they're just trying everything. Let's throw everything at the wall and see what we can do. But I do believe an app like this, if it's done right, could kill companies like Thumbtack, Angi, and other service apps. Because again, many people use Uber. I know that when we're in a city somewhere, Julie will get Uber Eats if we just don't want to go out, right? So that is an add-on service. But if Uber really wants to do this, I think they buy a Thumbtack or an Angi or something like that so that they have all that contractor or gig base that's automatically there. And it's just add water and you put this app pulled together. And it's just a much easier way to do what Angi and the Thumbtacks of the world have been doing for years. And I mean, that's literally, it's just, it's lead gen is all they do. It's lead gen. This could be more than that, which I think would be really cool.
Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. TaskRabbit has the benefit of being owned, by IKEA, oddly enough.
Chad Sowash: IKEA, yeah.
Joel Cheeseman: We talked about that a few years ago. If you've never put together an IKEA couch, you know a little help can go a long way. Which I think was the precipice for, IKEA buying this app.
Chad Sowash: YouTube, IKEA and Ryan Reynolds. So YouTube, IKEA and Ryan Reynolds. Fucking hilarious. Go ahead. Sorry.
Joel Cheeseman: I have no idea what you're talking about. I'll google it later.
Chad Sowash: Oh, it's hilarious.
Joel Cheeseman: But these are mostly fringe companies, their kind of features, I guess. I don't think any of them, Thumbtack, Angi, are public companies. So Yeah, they seem...
Chad Sowash: Angi was, I don't know if they...
Joel Cheeseman: Angi was. There was Angi's list and then it...
Chad Sowash: 'Cause they were acquired. Yeah, they were acquired.
Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. So yeah, I don't... It's not my lane, but I don't think there's any takeoff success stories around this business. Look, Elon must have some serious envy about Uber, because Uber is what I think Elon wants X to be, sort of an everything app. I need something delivered. I need a ride. I need... By the way, I love scooters, Nashville full of scooters. I'm on scooter, scooter alert, everybody if you're driving the streets in Nashville. So they're becoming this sort of, whatever I need, I can go to this "super app" and get it. And to me, it makes perfect sense that they would add this option. I think any contractor they already know about Uber, they're gonna put their profile in there and we'll see can they strangle Angi out of business?
Joel Cheeseman: Can they strangle the Thumbtacks out of business? I guess we'll see. But I think that's Uber's goal. I think they just wanna suffocate everybody to where they're the only player and we go to them for all of our shit that we want, all of our conveniences. And this makes perfect sense. So how many drivers become furniture-put-together-ers? I don't know. There's gonna be some bleed over. But yeah, it's gonna be successful. People will see it when they get a ride. Like, Oh, now I can get someone to put my grill together on Uber, and I don't have to go to these other services. And by the way, Uber doesn't have to advertise like the other services do because it's so sort of ubiquitous with our daily lives and when we travel, so they don't have the marketing expenses that an Angi or a Thumbtack does. So yeah, I think it's a good move. If I'm Angi or the others, I'm thinking like, shit, what's our next move? What do we do now?
Chad Sowash: I'm Thinking, let's put in a really good bid to get bought, to get acquired by Uber. 'Cause I mean, those companies are legacy. They're old style lead gen. I mean, this is something new. It's much better. They just need a database like an Angi, because they have like the plumbers and the carpenters and the handymen and all those guys. Will drivers do it? Maybe. But I mean, you don't want to like hang your hat on that. Right? You want a database of these people right out of the gate. So if they go full steam, hopefully we see an acquisition.
Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. And I don't know who would buy some of those companies. I mean, they're so fragmented. They're so localized. It's sort of like Groupon, right? Like Groupon was huge locally, but like other services came along or are coming. So I don't know who would buy these guys. But that is an interesting, interesting notion. We'll keep our eye on it. But until then, Chad, my Uber is here to take me to RecFest for day two. I'm gonna get another cup of coffee. I'll see you on the booze cruise, my friend.
Chad Sowash: Yes!
Joel Cheeseman: We out.
Chad Sowash: We out.
Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forward it to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could've used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell. Enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey, or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now, go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap, because you'll be back like an awful train wreck you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.