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LinkedIn We Have A Problem

There’s bad, there’s rotten and then there’s LinkedIn’s job board strategy. It’s like peeling an onion and the boys are almost in tears covering this story, as well as

  • game-changing news from Zoom,

  • Buy or Sell with Fetcher, Unicorn Lattice, and Visage,

  • a 28-year-old earns $300k+ on Fiverr doing what?

  • Goldman Sachs continues the beatings,

  • while CitiGroiup optics soar.

  • ... Wait did we mention rumors on iCIMS and Mya the chatbot?

Get comfy and enjoy another Jobvite, JobAdx, and Sovren powered podcast.


INTRO (1s):

Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.

Joel (24s):

Oh, yeah. Say what you want. But Chad and Cheese have never even been to the Suez canal. You're listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast, boys and girls. I'm your cohost Joel "filibuster" Cheeseman.

Chad (37s):

I'm Chad "chief impact officer" Sowash.

Joel (41s):

Oh, that's going to get Harry on this week. Show LinkedIn we have a problem. Better up gets Harry and better than the sweet 16 it's time for a little buy or sell.

JOBADX (54s):

Job advertising is pretty simple, right? Write a good ad. Find the right channel, run tests, research others translate data, optimize. Okay. Maybe it's not that simple, but there is something that helps bring it all together and put it in autopilot for you. That's programmatic job ads with JobAdX. JobAdX gathers hundreds of channels and their job seeker audiences into one place so that your ads reach far and wide without having to create a ton of new accounts, create ad campaigns with no minimum spend or results focused and based on engagements from candidates. Have full control of your job ads using the JobAdX self-serve platform. Welcome to uncomplicated job ads. Find out how you can start attracting and engaging candidates with your ads in three steps at get-started-today, that's

Joel (1m 45s):

So I'm finally getting my shot on Friday, which is when people will be first listening to the show. So you and I are well on our way to summer of love, baby.

Chad (1m 55s):

Oh yeah. I've got the second shot. My second shot happening at 11:20 on Friday.

Joel (2m 2s):

And then promptly going on vacation for a week, I think is that, is that the plan?

Chad (2m 6s):

I'm getting the fuck out of town.

Joel (2m 8s):

Just drive. Just drive.

Chad (2m 9s):

Just doing something, doing something.

Joel (2m 11s):

Spin it, spin an arrow and then just go whatever direction it says North, South, East or West.

Chad (2m 16s):

It could be at least, maybe depending on what's open up in Fountain Square, come up there and, and check out the NCAA action. If there's any whatsoever.

Joel (2m 26s):

There you go. So apparently two weeks after your first shot, you're kind of not going to die. Like you, you may be in like, is it that's my understanding is like two weeks to kind of kick in on, the first one. Like, you'll get sick potentially, but not hospitalized and die and shout out to our poor friends in Canada who aren't getting shots apparently.

Chad (2m 47s):

No, but I think that's interesting. Didn't we send them shots? I thought we sent them?

Joel (2m 51s):

Like we sent them the AstraZeneca, which no one else wants. I think that's why.

Chad (2m 56s):

The ones we haven't approved. Yes.

Joel (2m 58s):


Chad (3m 1s):

Ah, so NCAA has been shit from a bracket standpoint, not to mention, we've also seen that they don't treat the females quite the same as the males. Have you seen this?

Joel (3m 12s):

Yes. And I'm I'm, I'm so glad that that was a Texas versus Indiana thing. Cause if it was Indiana who looked like, you know, a set of five pound weights on a rack versus Texas, I would have been really hurt. But yeah, it was, it was good to see it was Texas and not us.

Chad (3m 29s):

So first and foremost, the men got the PCR test, the really expensive COVID test and the females got the rapid antigen. Right. It was like, Hey, here's the cheap stuff to go ahead. And it, yeah, you're good. You're good. Then the men got, you know, like a million dollar weight room and yeah,

Joel (3m 47s):

They got, they got the lifetime fitness with the sauna and Whirlpool.

Chad (3m 51s):

And the women got a fucking weight rack. I mean, and again, if Texas can fuck anything else up, just continue. Okay, continue. This is your year, Texas. Continue to fuck. It's just ridiculous.

Joel (4m 5s):

And then it's like next to a fold-out table. Like, is that where they were getting taped up? I don't understand what was going on there.

Chad (4m 12s):

I don't know. I don't know.

Joel (4m 13s):

Here's your bench press.

Chad (4m 15s):

Fucking five and dime down there in Texas. Jesus

Joel (4m 20s):

Don't mess with Texas baby. Let's talk about rumors real quick.

Chad (4m 25s):

OOo rumors.

Joel (4m 26s):

So, so we're not going to report on this, on this show, but this is potentially upcoming hot stuff, hot stuff. So the first rumor that I've got was given to me by two really reliable sources. And it's that iCIMS is soon to be filing their S1, which means IPO time at iCIMS. So be on the lookout for that.

Chad (4m 51s):

Or they've shown enough leg, so that Microsoft looks and goes, huh? Yeah, maybe, I ought to buy that?

Joel (4m 57s):

Yeah. They're going to pull a Glassdoor. They're pulling a Glassdoor. Like here's what we're valued. Here's how much our stock price is rising after our S1 comes on and like, Oh wait a minute, wait a minute. We have a buyer. We have a buyer, everybody psych. Yeah. So be on the, we'll be on the lookout for that. The second rumor Maya, our buddies at the, the chat bot solution there word is that they're, there'll be selling to a staffing firm and that the announcement is coming soon. My source also added that Maya has been trying to sell for quite a long time, but didn't have a whole lot of interest that may have been pandemic influenced or just the fact that the shit wasn't any good.

Joel (5m 41s):

But anyway, Maya and iCIMS should be main stories coming soon if these rumors are true. Yeah.

Chad (5m 49s):

Yeah. I got confirmation on that last one with Maya. Overall, I don't think it's that the tech is shit. I think it's at point you can just kind of wait it out, you know, you can wait it out and get a lower price later. So yeah, that's probably what smart buyers are doing. They're waiting for a little bit more of a clearance rack.

Joel (6m 8s):

Yeah. Fair enough. And let's be honest, Maya raised a shit ton of money, which means the money they had to get in a sale was going to be significant.

Chad (6m 17s):

That was that. Remember AllyO had like $65 and they went for $50. So they didn't even cover their bets. Right?

Joel (6m 24s):

Yeah. What did Maya raise about $70 or 80?

Chad (6m 27s):

$51 million

Joel (6m 28s):

Doubtful. They got the $500 million their investors were hoping for.

Chad (6m 32s):


Joel (6m 33s):

We'll see. If they don't announce the number, then we know it was not good

Chad (6m 38s):

Away from tech, but now talking about politics real quick.

Joel (6m 42s):


Chad (6m 43s):

The Senate on Wednesday confirmed Dr. Rachel Levine as Assistant Secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services, the very first transgender federal official to be confirmed by the chamber. Now the vote was 52 to 48 and the only two Republicans that actually crossed lines to vote for Dr. Rachel Levine was two females, Senator Susan Collins of Maine and Lisa Murkowski of Alaska who joined all the rest, the rest of the Democrats and voting for Dr. Levine, as assholes like Rand Paul continue fearing anything that is not a straight white male.

Chad (7m 26s):

Congratulations Dr. Levine, man. That's that's awesome. It's good that we can take that step because I don't believe we're the first.

Joel (7m 34s):

Making progress. And by the way, I don't have the names, but I remember seeing a story about ESPN had their first ever all female play by play on an NBA game. So we're making progress all over the place, baby. Power to the women.

Chad (7m 50s):

One day, this week, one day was Women's Equal Pay Day. So I'm probably going to step in it on this one, but what the actual fuck is this day for?

Joel (8m 3s):

And why is it a day?

Chad (8m 5s):

I mean recognition that females are paid less seriously? I mean, why, why don't we have a concerted effort on this cluster fuck. Instead of a fluffy recognition day, I don't understand days like this. If we focused on shit that actually moved anything because nothing's being moved. Like transparency, forcing companies to demonstrate that they're actually paying equally, there's equity. So these days that just come out of nowhere and everybody's like, today's equal payday. It's like, but you're not getting equal pay. I don't fucking get this.

Joel (8m 43s):

Well, thank God Prince Harry is going to be getting equal pay soon announcement out of Silicon Valley, a unicorn industry startup Better Up, which offers personalized coaching content and care, designed to transform lives and careers has announced Prince Harry as Chief Impact Officer. So no more poor house for Prince Harry. He's going to be making some bank, finally. Thank God for that.

Chad (9m 10s):

I wonder, I mean, the pitch for Prince Harry, because, you know, he had several companies coming after him to have him, you know, like endorse or be a part of.

Joel (9m 20s):


Chad (9m 21s):

Gotta wonder what the pitch was here. And obviously with, you know, with Better Up there's this altruistic kind of feel to making money. Right?

Joel (9m 30s):


Chad (9m 31s):

Maybe that was it.

Joel (9m 31s):

I feel like the attending, the SHERM conferences was probably the thing that sold Prince Harry on our industry. I mean, can you imagine finally, sales calls will be answered if Prince Harry is making, making the sales calls at Better Up, that'll be a nice change.

Chad (9m 48s):

They'll send out a send out a, just like these robotic Prince Harry voice mails. Yeah,

Joel (9m 53s):

Yeah. Harry's to everybody Lisa, Prince Harry's on the phone. No shit? The whole HR departments gathered around for the sales call.

Chad (10m 1s):

Prince Harry's on Zoom. That's what it is. So this week I had a great time with Madeline Laurano talking more in depth about the research she did and programmatic it's called State of Programmatic job advertising covered a couple, you know, areas. 40% of job advertising spend is wasted due to obviously the old way of doing job postings versus programmatic, which actually has a 90% customer retention rate, which I thought was fucking ridiculous. I mean, that's awesome. Anyway, we went pretty deep into the, the programmatic research can find it at to download the entire report.

Chad (10m 45s):

That was a good time. And to think that all of pretty much talent acquisition, they still can't spell programmatic. Let alone know what the fuck it is.

Joel (10m 54s):

He said really deep. Let's just talk about free shit for a second. If you haven't signed up for free t-shirts, free bourbon, free beer. What the hell is your problem? Head out to it's towards the end of the month, we'll be announcing announcing new winners very soon. Make sure that you're on that list to win good free shit.

Chad (11m 17s):

Amen. And one last shout out to Torrin and Julie at Crazy in the King. Julie's on the road this week, she had a road trip with Tristen. So I filled in as guest host on the show. So this week it was appropriately renamed Whitey and the King. So go check it out. You're going to love it.

Joel (11m 39s):

Would Cracker in the King, be too inappropriate?

Chad (11m 41s):

I can call myself whatever I want. Right?

Joel (11m 42s):

Okay. We have officially, both stepped in it and we're 12 minutes into the show. So that's good. That's it. Let's get into topics.

Chad (11m 49s):

I can call myself whitey. Topics!

Joel (11m 53s):

LinkedIn we have a problem. So our friends at Jobiak, or as you like to mispronounce it, Jobiak apparently, and, their job search engine, all jobs, they did a little research or a little recon after our topic about LinkedIn aggregating jobs. And they found some pretty interesting information.

Chad (12m 14s):

Yeah. So last week we talked about the LinkedIn jobs

Joel (12m 20s):

Product or problem? Products.

Chad (12m 22s):

Okay. Both. Yeah. It's a both in this case, their product and or problem, relying on employers to claim their jobs so that they can clean up this shit pile of a job mess that LinkedIn has. So pretty much they're saying, Hey employers, we've got shit over here that needs cleaned up. Can you come do it for us? So Vencat was like, this sounds interesting. Let's jump into it and he found some data. The findings are based on the analysis of 52,000 companies, jobs on LinkedIn.

Joel (12m 55s):

So not a small universe. They did some real deep data diving in this one.

Chad (13m 0s):

Not at all. So approximately 60% of LinkedIn jobs were coming from job boards. Over 50% of jobs did not have direct links to employer career pages. Jobs are being associated with the wrong company. Come on man. As an example, Jobiak found six jobs linked to its name none of them were correct. Coinbase, a company that has a total of 200 jobs on their career page had 2000 jobs on LinkedIn. So I mean,

Joel (13m 36s):

Sorry about that extra zero. Sorry about that extra zero.

Chad (13m 39s):

What the Fuck man? I mean, this is just ridiculous.

Joel (13m 44s):

So to remedy this is my favorite part. LinkedIn is relying on employers to claim their jobs, which as Jobiak highlighted is unrealistic and a cause for major concern. LinkedIn, come on, man.

Chad (13m 60s):

Yeah. So Alexander Jakawski on LinkedIn. He's been scraping jobs probably for about 10 years, if not more, he posted this and the Coinbase example of actually 200 jobs and 2000 on LinkedIn and what are the product managers or something said responded and then said, you know, it's not as easy as it looks.

Joel (14m 20s):

Well, no shit.

Chad (14m 21s):

I'm paraphrasing, but it really to be quite Frank, it is if you know the source and you don't take jobs from everyone, that's the problem. They're opening up to everyone. And the question is, are they doing this from the arbitrage standpoint? Or are they doing this so that they do create a mess? So that employers feel like they have to come back, clean up that mess. And then re-engage with those employers, that's a shitty way to drive leads. I don't see that somebody actually threw that out to me, LinkedIn. I was like, that's fucking stupid. But overall it is easier when you white list companies. And if you're taking jobs directly from applicant tracking systems and you're not taking them from job boards, you have to look at the source.

Chad (15m 6s):

We started doing this at Direct Employers before we were Direct Employers in like 2002, right? And Indeed took our feed, Simply Hired, took our feed. You know why? Because they knew it was a trusted feed of only corporate career sites. Right? So this can be done in a very easy way. I quote unquote "easy". There's a lot of maintenance to be done. The biggest key, if you're a LinkedIn, you go to the applicant tracking systems. LinkedIn has a big enough name to be able to interface with the applicant tracking systems and actually make something like this happen.

Joel (15m 42s):

I think a lot of it was early hubris. I think, early on they thought every recruiter uses us. Every employer uses us. So of course they're going to post all their jobs on our site, right? And then the world sort of went away from this manually posting jobs world and went into sort of a XML file, scraping whatever. And LinkedIn wasn't built for that. They were built for like, Hey, your link, your job is connected to a profile or a company and everything's native and you're putting it in it within the walled garden of LinkedIn and programmatic throws this whole other variable into the job search and job promotion world, and companies just want jobs to show up.

Joel (16m 25s):

They don't want to post them manually. And they've just what they wanted it to be isn't what it is. And now they're trying to like backtrack and figure out how do we fix this? How do we get all these jobs to be native jobs? And that's not working. So they have a real fucked up situation over at LinkedIn.

Chad (16m 41s):

They're showing just how ancient their technology is right now.

Joel (16m 45s):

It seems like they should have some brain power in the house to help them with this problem. Maybe not.

Chad (16m 51s):

If they wanted to figure this out, it could be figured out fairly quickly, but they don't have, they don't have the expertise.

Joel (16m 56s):

Just, just write a check to Vencat dammit, just write a check and be done with it.

Chad (17m 2s):

I love Vencat to death, but looking at his stuff, I don't think he's got to figured it out either.

Joel (17m 7s):

And we'll talk about that on next week's show, stay tuned, kids.

Chad (17m 12s):

Now it's time for some buy or sell.

Joel (17m 14s):

Well, I love me some buy or sell. All right we have three startups. They all have one thing in common, of course, which is, I guess the pandemic. We'll start out with Visage, hopefully I'm saying that correctly, San Francisco based Visage as a hiring platform, using the power of the crowd. Think of it as like 4,000 sourcing nerds in one place to find you the right candidate. So they raised 7 million in series A funding. First analysis led the round and was joined by investors, including Urban Innovation Fund. You can find out more and I love this. I'm just going to throw this in there. URL is, which is the only vendor that I can think of that uses a .jobs domain. So good on them.

Joel (17m 55s):

This sourcing technology blends 4,000 sourcers and AI to find diverse talent within hours. Buy or sell?

Chad (18m 4s):

Yeah. Unlike Fetcher, I like that Visage, isn't trying to bullshit the market yet, they're using humans as a part of the model. What I would not like as a perspective buyer is the valuation of a tech company instead of a service company. Right. So if it's valued as a tech company, it's overpriced, I'm selling. If it's valued as a service company I'm buying. So the platform could turn into the Uber of RPOs, I think, but overall there are way too many cogs that could, human cogs, that could fall out of the machine to make it its valuation good for tech.

Joel (18m 48s):

Yeah, so if this had been a company launched 15 years ago, it would have been hailed as revolutionary as fuck. But as most of our listeners have heard us talk about over the years, you know, sourcing is becoming more and more automated. The idea of thinking like, let's post a wreck and have 4,000 human beings weed through it and place people, seems really antiquated and it seems prime to be totally disrupted by, I don't know, automation and automated sourcing, which a lot of companies are doing now. So unless they're looking at a big pivot to get off the human beings, I'm going to have to sell this thing.

Joel (19m 28s):

I mean, I like the idea of these sourcers having something to do because companies are letting them go at at record paces. So that's nice. And I guess they can milk this for a while, but you know, I think sourcing is going the way of the Polaroid camera, maybe at some point.

Chad (19m 43s):

Well, it seems like it could be almost like a niche Fiverr for sourcing.

Joel (19m 48s):

That's basically what it is. I mean, crowdsourcing was big again, back in 2010, if this company was, you know, 10 years.

Chad (19m 56s):

Oh, Fiverrs big. Yeah. It's crowdsourcing not to mention also this is kind of like an Uber app. Think about it. Uber's crowdsourcing vehicles and people. Right.

Joel (20m 5s):

You can crowdsource it, but can it be automated? I think is the question. And I think most of what Visage does can be automated.

Chad (20m 13s):


Joel (20m 13s):

All right. Let's go to number two. Fetcher. You gave a tease on that, you're not a huge fan or maybe you are the New York-based recruiting automation platform focused on diversity raised 6.5 million in Series A funding late last week. G20 Ventures led the round and was joined by investors, including K fund, Accomplice and Slow Ventures, Fetcher automates your repetitive top of funnel tasks. So you can focus more on candidate engagement and team collaboration, buy or sell? Fetcher?

Chad (20m 44s):

Yeah. So is anybody not pimping diversity these days?

Joel (20m 49s):

It's like AI was a year and a half, two years.

Chad (20m 52s):

Diversity's the new AI. Yeah, that's it. Okay. So now you, you know how much I love me some matching technology, right? That's my favorite, but I'm not a fan of said matching. If it's founded in outsourced humans, performing the matches. I understand Fetcher is more than matching, but that is the biggest and most valuable lift and technical asset for me and it's vaporware. So I am selling.

Joel (21m 22s):

Yeah. Just on the promotional copy that I've read. I mean, I liked the idea of automating repetitive top of funnel tasks. Obviously we talk a lot about that. So I'm going to go ahead and sell this one as well. I do however, love the fact that they actually engage with us when we post. I posted a shred on this and I got followed by like 28 Fetcher employees and people that were like, thanks for talking about us, which is also not a great sign that their employees have all the time to like follow, follow me and thank me for that. But anyway, all right, we got two Sells. Let's see if we have a buy in our third competitor, Lattice: a San Francisco based HR management platform raised 60 million this week valuing it at $1 billion, unicorn alert!

Joel (22m 10s):

Tiger Global led the round. The new series of the investment brings Lattices total funding to $158 million, since its founding in 2013, so not quite as startup. Lattice has grown its teamed over 225 employees and serves more than 2,500 businesses, including Slack, Asauna and <inaudible> over the course of 2020, the company has doubled in size due to the increased focus on people-centric thinking in businesses. Lattice is the people management platform that enables people leaders to develop engaged high-performing teams. Lattice, buy or sell?

Chad (22m 47s):

Pandemic, say what? Yeah, we're going to stay remote and or hybrid, right? So we have to have technology in to be able to manage that much better than we have over the years. So Lattice in their investors understand now is the time to build and grab market share quickly. Organic growth is great, but when the weather is right and you have access to funds, you launch that rocket ship baby, because I'm buying!

Joel (23m 14s):

Right. Yeah. I agree. Like we, I talk all the time when we do these about catching the right wave, right? There's no doubt that the pandemic and work from home and hybrid office and et cetera, is going to mint a lot of companies that focus on this problem. Is Lattice, the company that strikes at big or one of the companies that makes it big? I don't know, but they're riding the right wave. So for me, this is a big buy Lattice, even though it makes me think of lettuce, which I don't like so much, let's Take a quick break and get into some more.

Chad (23m 49s):

Hot topics.

Sovren (23m 51s):

You already know that Sovren makes the world's best resume CV parser, but did you know that Sovren also makes the world's best AI matching engine? Only Sovren's AI matching engine goes beyond the buzzwords. With Sovren you control how the engine thinks with every match the Sovren engine tells you what matched and exactly how each matching document was scored. And if you don't agree with the way it's scored the matches, you can simply move some sliders to tell it, to score the matches your way. No other engine on earth gives you that combination of insight and control. With Sovren, matching isn't some frustrating "black box, trust us, it's magic, one shot deal" like all the others. No, with Sovren, matching is completely understandable, completely controllable, and actually kind of fun. Sovren ~ software so human you'll want to take it to dinner.

Joel (24m 51s):

Nationwide is on your, Oh no, wait. That's not the right nation.

Chad (24m 55s):

I don't think it's that one. I don't think it's that one. Yeah. So this next story is pretty amazing. Just from the standpoint of, we've been talking about hybrid? Retracting the footprint, right? And Nationwide tells 13,000 employees to work anywhere. We're putting our employees in control of where they work from, inviting them to quote, locate for their day, depending on where they need to achieve. So apparently they can work in a branch office. They can work at home, they have this kind of like ability to move around and just get work done.

Joel (25m 29s):

Yup. Yup. So under the plan Nationwide is closing three offices in Swindon, wherever that is in the UK with 3000 staff, either moving to the nearby HQ, working from home or mixing the two. Other UK staff may be able to work from their local high street branch if they prefer rather than travel to offices. A survey of employees, 57% said they wanted to work from home full time, that's a lot of people who never want to go back to the office again.

Chad (25m 55s):

Fuck Yeah!

Joel (25m 56s):

More than a third 36% said they prefer a mix of home and office based work. A move toward flexible working will see a change to the configuration of offices. I don't know if that means there'll be casinos or what, but they claim that there'll be more collaboration spaces and fewer meeting rooms, as well as introducing quiet areas, oo that sounds nice, and designated walking and cycling routes. Quote from the higher ups, "Our offices will become hubs where teams can meet for creativity, social connection, and collaboration." That sounds sexy. Good for you Nationwide.

Chad (26m 33s):

Yeah. Quiet areas to you means nap areas.

Joel (26m 37s):

That means my bed. It means my couch that's what that means.

Chad (26m 40s):

So also a Santander, I guess is how you say it. They're going to be closing 111 branches. So another company also retracting their footprints. Again. I just think this fiscally, is a very smart move. Yeah.

Joel (26m 59s):

Yeah. And they talked about like, you know, climate footprint and all the good things that come around because of this. And this sort of started in a big way with Salesforce who announced a few weeks ago that, Hey, this is the model it's like, you can work from home, you can do half and half, or you can come to the office, you know, all the time. Workchew, which we talked about last week, a startup that basically partners with restaurants and hotels to let people yeah, to let people sort of by passes and then go and have unlimited, you know, coffee, tea, chips and salsa or whatever. This is the way the world is going. And to me, the thing that caught my attention was we're going see con a reconfiguration of offices because these companies still have this real estate.

Joel (27m 44s):

They still have to make these payments. So they have to do something with these spaces. So what does collaboration space mean? I don't know. It's going to be every company figuring out what the new office looks like. I got to think this is a bad thing, if you make cubicles for a living and probably really good if you're like a furniture store, because there's going to be some really rethinking about what an office is. And to me, that's going to be pretty interesting.

Chad (28m 10s):

Yeah. Being able to figure out what's going to sell in the home office versus the cubicle office.

Joel (28m 16s):

And being really creative around urban areas. And how do you work in a, you know, a one bedroom studio apartment or whatever. Like those will be challenges.

Chad (28m 29s):

Food trucks. That's the game right there. Right. Food trucks. That's what I want to see. I want to see more Food Trucks.

Joel (28m 36s):

And companies reserving entire food trucks to come to their office certain days a week.

Chad (28m 41s):


Joel (28m 41s):

And then that day, you know, taco Tuesday is when everybody comes to the office because well, Tacos.

Chad (28m 47s):

Well, if you're smart though, and you're like a small downtown, like Columbus, Indiana here, or maybe even a larger downtown, like Indianapolis, you have like Food Truck days. So you're pulling people downtown into communal areas, those types of things out of their homes and offices. So I think, you know, there's opportunity for different behavior, but a better behavior that's more work-life balance.

Joel (29m 12s):

Yeah. Test kitchens, ghost kitchens. There's going to be some real rubbing together and getting sticky with the food industry and the corporations of the new post pandemic era. Speaking of pandemic companies, Zoom everything this week. So announced by one of our favorite video solutions. Zoom now has an SDK for putting Zoom into other things, Oh God, did we predict this? Or what?

Chad (29m 43s):


Joel (29m 43s):

I think we did. Zoom has released a new SDK meaning software development kit. For those who don't know to help developers build Zoom into their software. According to the company, you can build your own video based applications and websites. Did I hear video recruiting solution? On top of Zooms platform and can more easily incorporate Zoom's video and audio features directly into your apps? The company envisions developers, utilizing Zoom's chat functions, and a number of different settings from social media and gaming platforms to virtual retail apps. Quote from the company "Using our video, SDK developers can drive customer engagement and provide new opportunities for revenue without being tied to the Zoom meetings user face."

Joel (30m 31s):

And every video recruiting company now is shaking in their boots. Right?

Chad (30m 37s):

I wouldn't go that far. Although I would say that companies like Talk Push and Paradox saw early on, that instead of building their own quote/unquote "video platform," integrating Zoom, Teams, Google Meet was really the way to go because those were the quote unquote "preferred platforms" of said companies, right? Said clients, so if your client uses Zoom or they use Meet or they use, you know, Teams, whatever they use, you want to be able to have some form of SDK to plug into it and integrate that into your platform itself. So it makes it easier for not just recruiters, but also hiring managers.

Chad (31m 22s):

You know, they don't, they're not in it every single day. So being able to provide them with a video solution that they're already used to, and they're already hooked up to, and they don't have to go through, you know, single sign-ons and all that other bullshit. But zoom will have to start doing more of this to get aggressive as Google meet and Microsoft teams continue to gain acceptance by users. So this is a move, but they have to get more aggressive. Sure.

Joel (31m 49s):

So I'm gonna take, I'm gonna take our listeners back in time a little bit. We need some like music. So, in 2003, four, five, six, YouTube was becoming a thing. And you had a ton of video competitors. I think Vimeo is the only one that's still around, but you had a ton of like Josh T, Justin TV or something. You had like Zoom Cam and, or XY cam, whatever. You had a bunch of stuff. Right. And inevitably our industry said like, we're going to make our own video player too. So the one that sticks out in my mind and partly, just probably because they bought my company a few years later is Jobbing Video.

Joel (32m 30s):

Do you remember Jobbing Video?

Chad (32m 32s):

No, no.

Joel (32m 32s):

Nobody remembers. But Jobbing Video literally had a staff of videographers personality. They would go into companies, do video, really progressive stuff. And they had their own video player. So they stored the video. They played it. Well over the course of a few years, YouTube, wasn't just this weird sort of quirky video upload thing. They started adding things like, Oh, I don't know, HD. They started adding things like, you know, no buffering and closed captioned and all these things that there was no way that employment sort of solution was going to keep up with the innovation that was happening at YouTube. So they dumped Jobbing Video and started just putting in YouTube videos, embeds into, into the solution.

Joel (33m 19s):

So my prediction is I think that you're going to start seeing startups and going to be implementing Zoom. And because Zoom is going to have all this shit, one is people will have an account, they'll hit critical mass. They'll have like background custom backgrounds that people can use for whatever. I mean, they're going to use all the cool technology that Zoom has and claim it as their own using the SDK. And by the way, because they're not like hosting, powering, producing, all that good stuff, taking the content or transcribing stuff like Zoom will probably have that available as well. At some point, like they're going to be companies recruiting, video companies powered by Zoom, and they're going to be cheaper, they're going to be better.

Joel (34m 2s):

And they're going to push the other companies to really rethink how are we doing video?

Chad (34m 6s):

So you just said pretty much HireVue is dead.

Joel (34m 9s):

Note to self, it may take 10 years and we'll be retired from this podcast, but, but that's my prediction unless they take that AllyO acquisition and really make it awesome.

Chad (34m 22s):

Right, okay. So last one in this segment, we're going to talk about Goldman Sachs versus a City Group. This is interesting because Goldman Sachs, it seems that they had an employee survey that got out and the BBC published it. So the BBC understands that the survey was conducted by a self-selected group of US based first year investment banking analysts among themselves. But here's the information that they got that was actually available by Goldman Sachs slides. On average, you're going to love this, first year analyst work over 95 hours a week and sleep five hours a night.

Joel (35m 7s):

My days are reversed by the way, I work five hours and sleep the rest of the night. Yeah,

Chad (35m 12s):

They get to sleep around 3:00 AM. A hundred percent have seen the job negatively impact, their relationships, family, family, and friends, duh go figure. 77% feel victim to workplace abuse. 75% sought counseling slash therapy, a hundred percent feel like they have a unrealistic deadlines and 83% experience micro management. These are all first year investment banking analysts, who we know just historically, are treated like dogs, right? But apparently through the pandemic, it's gotten worse.

Joel (35m 51s):

I have a lot of questions about this survey. So according to the news, this was a survey among 13 employees, which is not a lot of employees, Goldman Sachs employees, a lot of people. Now, I'm not saying that life isn't hard for first year, Goldman Sachs employees. In fact, I would say like, if you go into Goldman Sachs thinking, you're not going to work like a dog for a few years until you prove yourself and move on to something else, like you're probably in the wrong business anyway. So part of it is I think this is real, but I also think that part of it is maybe whining by a small group of people. And the media has grabbed hold of this and really, really run with it. My company Poach, which we don't talk a lot about a lot, but we basically can look at data and then create sentiment scores and whatnot around this.

Joel (36m 38s):

So I conveniently put in Goldman Sachs into our little AI machine to see what would, what it would spit out and overwhelmingly sentiment is very positive at Goldman Sachs. And if you look at, if you go to Glassdoor, which most people would say is sort of the, you know, the gold standard for, for happiness at a company, they're four out of five stars. The CEO who I know got a lot of Slack on, I think, New York Post or wherever saying, let them meet Saturdays, which I thought was great. He has an 89% approval rating. So to me, this is an outlier. I agree, it makes great headlines and great press. And I think additionally, what City Group did and we'll talk about that in a second, it was a really good chess move in light of the news to make themselves look better and look like a much better employer.

Joel (37m 27s):

So for me, I know it sounds bad, but the data and the bigger picture doesn't show a company, that' you know, I don't know, a sweat shop and a horrible, horrible place to work because a lot of people apparently do like working there.

Chad (37m 42s):

Yeah. I think it's funny by now. You don't think that those algorithms can't be gamed because a company like Goldman Sachs with the kind of cash that they have, you know, that shit's being gamed.

Joel (37m 52s):

It's a big company with a lot of employees.

Chad (37m 55s):

This is how Goldman Sachs does business. And if that's how Goldman Sachs does business. Okay, great. If you don't want to work 95 hours a week, you don't go to Goldman Sachs.

Joel (38m 7s):


Chad (38m 8s):

DJ Soul, and the investors are greedy white dudes who give zero fucks. That's what it is, right.

Joel (38m 14s):

You're not going to Goldman to save the world, and you're not going to Goldman to like, you know, have a work-life balance and have kids, like you're going there to make money or have a springboard to a better, you know, better opportunity because you put the time in, at Goldman Sachs. I mean, it's boot camp at the Marines for Ivy leaguers.

Chad (38m 33s):

Wouldn't quite got that far, but yeah, it should be expected right? Now, I think you're a hundred percent correct when we're talking about chess moves. Citi Group CEO is probably 180 degrees different from good old DJ Saul. Yeah. Citi Group CEO, Jane Fraser told staff that she is banning, banning internal video calls on Fridays, encouraging workers to set boundaries for a healthier work-life balance and instituting a firm-wide holiday called Citi reset day, which is actually May 28th.

Joel (39m 12s):

That's clever.

Chad (39m 13s):

As a COVID pandemic fatigue takes a toll on employees. They have about 210,000 employees. I think once again, it starts to set up really the expectations for not every company is the same. I don't agree with brutalizing 95 hours a week, work, but overall that you know what you're getting into compared to Citi Group. Yeah. And look, Jane Frazier basically said, Hey, Goldman Sachs employees who hate working at Goldman Sachs, take a look at Citi Group, because we might be a much better place for you to find a career.

Chad (39m 53s):

So for me, like either it was really a just coincidental timing or one hell of a chess move to say, look, they're in the news as being a real shitty place to work, we're going to come out and say, Zoom free Fridays and work-life balance and mental health days and Citi reset, and like really clever marketing.

Joel (40m 14s):

And I'm sure a lot of people that at Goldman that said, Hey, we have, we do it does suck here. Like, what else is out there? So from a marketing standpoint, I mean, she looks like a much better CEO, a much better place to work. And it was a great recruiting move to get people from other places in her industry to, to come work for them. I mean, oddly enough, both of them in terms of like poach data, they're both very positive Glassdoor. I think Citi's like three and a half out of five stars and, and her and their CEO is like a 91 or so percent approval rating. So oddly enough, both of these companies show really high sentiment scores as well as really popular CEOs.

Joel (40m 58s):

But sometimes there's an opportunity and you can spin the marketing wheel and have two very opposing stories, which may be, we have here.

Chad (41m 7s):

Yeah. You better check your algorithm.

Joel (41m 12s):

That's what she said.

Chad (41m 15s):

Oh, we'll be right back.

Jobvite (41m 17s):

You know, Steve, it feels like we keep getting pushed to hire more and better candidates with no more budget. Right? I wish there was a way to get better results from what we're doing. Actually, I heard in episode of Chad and Cheese about this framework from Jobvite. Oh yeah. Evolve. It's a technology agnostic framework to help TA teams get better results from their recruiting efforts. And we don't even have to be a Jobvite by customer to use it. I bet we would get better results if we orchestrated all of our efforts. You mean like a centralized process and all of our channels working together? For sure, whether it's job boards, social, or even texting with candidates. Let's do that. I'll send you the link. Cool. I'm going to finish watching this episode of Bridgerton.

Joel (42m 2s):

We talked about Fiverr and you dissing on Visage with their five or like type of crowd source.

Chad (42m 10s):

It was a disage on Visage is what I did.

Joel (42m 13s):

Oh, that's very good. That's nice.

Chad (42m 15s):

That's our new title for the show.

Joel (42m 18s):

Yeah. Visage is not big enough for a title. Yeah, I know. So at 28 year old making $378,000 on Fiverr, how the fuck does she do that? She works really fucking hard is how she does it. So Alex Fasulo, she's in Brooklyn, she's a freelance writer and she looked around in the pandemic and saw everyone losing their jobs, new companies, going out of business, et cetera, and said, I need to find a new gig. And she went on the Fiverr platform.

Joel (42m 59s):

She's on the higher end version. The Fiverr pro you have to sort of earn your way into that. But once you get into there, you're a really trusted vendor. She primarily ghost writes white papers and books and eBooks and whatnot. She charges clients a thousand dollars for around the 10,000 word ebook. She says in any given week, she writes up to three e-books for clients. That's a lot of fucking books. She also said while so many people were losing their jobs. And so many businesses were going out of business. So many people were coming online to start selling products and services because it was the only way that they were going to make contact with other human beings.

Joel (43m 39s):

It wasn't make money, it was connect with other human beings, which I thought was interesting. This isn't easy money, by the way. She's obviously good at it because you got to get rated. You got to get reviewed. So she's obviously good at it. She's defined a need in her marketplace. So she's actually selling something that people want to buy. And according if my, and if my math is correct, she's turning out like 10,000 words every day, seven days a week. Yeah. So she's working hard for that $378,000.

Chad (44m 11s):

Yeah. So in May of 2020, she earned over $36,000. That was her highest earning month. So that if just the math, that's nine eBooks a week, that's 90,000 words a week. So she's got to have this down some, some way. Yeah. She's got to have system set up where she's kicking ass, taking names. She might have a staff. She might have a staff. I've heard of that before. Yeah. I've heard of writers that have, you know, sub writers and nobody knows about them. So yeah, she may have a system. Yeah,e she may have a system. I mean, she's according to the article, she's put around in a nice new Jeep and enjoying life.

Joel (44m 51s):

So it's hard for me to imagine she's burning the midnight oil, just writing thousands and thousands of words every day.

Chad (44m 60s):

And she moved to Florida because you can do that shit anywhere.

Joel (45m 5s):

And there's no sales tax. So it's all bright skies, baby, but you still got to live in Florida, for that. We out.

Chad (45m 16s):

We out.

OUTRO (46m 9s):

Thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast with Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of Shout Outs of people, you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any hoo be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. Is so weird. We out..


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