Episode Search

Recorded live at the HR Tech Conference from the Fuel50 booth in Las Vegas, this episode features Larry McAlister, a three-time CHRO and author. We discuss his book "The Power to Transform," which serves as a field guide for building a human-centered, tech-enabled work culture. The episode also covers various topics, including the importance of HR technology, the need for HR professionals to embrace technology, and the impact of generative AI on the industry. Larry emphasizes the importance of self-care for job seekers and offers advice on how to make oneself more marketable in the evolving job market. The podcast also touches on the potential ethical issues and risks associated with AI in recruiting. Larry can be found on LinkedIn or at his website, LarryMcAlisterBook.com, and his book is available on Amazon. To learn more about Fuel50, visit https://fuel50.com. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps support and educate your workforce through disability awareness and inclusion training. Chad: Coming to you live from the Fuel50 booth at the heart of HR Tech, it's the Chad and Cheese Podcast. We are diving deep into the world of HR technology, tackling workforce challenges with innovative solutions. And we'd like to give special thanks to Fuel50, the science-based talent marketplace that bridges skills gaps, unlocks hidden potential and supports better retention and engagement. Let's do this. Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: Oh, yeah. What's up everybody? It's your sportsbooks favorite podcast, AKA, The Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheeseman joined as always, the Bellagio to my Venetian, Chad Sowash. We're recording live from the... Chad: All about the balance. Joel: Fuel50 booth At HR Tech in Las Vegas. And we are just giddy to welcome Larry McAlister, three times CHRO and bestselling author to the podcast. Chad: He owns a sandwich shop, doesn't he? McAlister? [overlapping conversation] Joel: They have a great roast beef, yes. Larry: That one has two Ls. Joel: Great roast beef. Larry: I only have one L. My dad said only the rich one got two Ls so that's why it's one. Chad: Oh, okay. So you had to back off a little bit. Joel: A lot of our listeners don't know who you are. Give him a quick Twitter bio about what makes Larry tick. Larry: Yeah. So I worked for Fortune 500 companies doing transformation, a technology transformation making sure... Joel: Do you want a name drop? Larry: NetApp and Equinix were the last two I worked at, the biggest data center company in the world and NetApp is now a big cloud company. Changing the way that managers and employees work together and completely transforming how HR acts inside a company. And people told me, "You should write a book, you should write a book, you should write a book." I was like... Chad: A book? Larry: Okay. I'll write a book. Chad: Okay. Larry: Good idea. Chad: I'll write a book. That's a lot of work, Larry. I mean, you... I'm sure we're already... Joel: Talking into a mic is much easier. Chad: Yes, it is, right? Just transcribe that shit. So there's a lot of research that I'm sure you had to do for the book, but you were probably already doing that. Talk a little bit about what researching for the book actually brought out that you just didn't know before. Larry: Yeah, that's great. So what I try to do is not make it a research theoretical book. Chad: Okay. Larry: It's called "The Power to Transform: A Field Guide." So I want to just tell you how I did it. Chad: Gotcha. Okay. Larry: If you know me and you read the book, you're like, that's Larry's voice. Chad: Nice. Larry: I want to... Third grade level reading, that's my goal and I cheated a little bit. Chad: I think you're having to drop down a level for Cheeseman. Joel: That's my... Were there cartoon pictures as well? Larry: There are some photos in there. Joel: Yes. Larry: You can point and... Chad: The coloring book. Larry: Draw all it in a book. Chad: Yeah, Joe likes the coloring book. Larry: So the idea is just to help people say, I could do transformation. I don't have to go pay some big company a million dollars to help me do it and then they leave and you're left with nothing. Just follow this book, follow these 300 pages and you can do transformation for yourself and put HR on the map. Chad: Yeah. What's the biggest piece of transformation that is not happening today? 'Cause transformation is a very long process. Larry: And a big one. Chad: There are many steps, 300 and some odd pages for God's sake. Larry: Yeah, yeah, 280. Yes. Chad: What 10 pages in there is the most important that just isn't happening? Larry: I think I call it the golden loop. Everything has to be connected. So you come to HR Tech, you go buy a piece of technology, turn it on and have this idea, build it and they will come. They will not come. You have to have an established digested talent strategy that technology propels. So there's no way you just turn it on. So I say, "Hey, how do you activate yourself? How do you activate the team? How do you activate the enterprise and how do you activate the future?" Those are the four tenets of transformation. Build technology to go all around that. Fuel50, I write about in the book, they were our enterprise-wide solution. Everyone in the company felt they could grow during the pandemic from their kitchen table. Thanks to technology that supported the strategy and not just something I turned on and said, "Ho get them, guys." And at the time, we were the number one fastest adopter of Fuel50. Joel: Yeah. I feel like there's a little bit of a backlash on technology in that there's so much noise. We're here at HR Technology. Rows and rows... Chad: It's hard. Joel: And rows and rows of companies that will change your life. Chad: It's a sea. Larry: It is a sea. Joel: I feel like the reaction is let's just keep our LinkedIn licenses. [laughter] Talk about the clutter and what companies are facing with that 'cause I think it's a real problem. Larry: I agree with the noise. So generative AI is going to be the fastest and most impactful technology in our lifetimes, probably since Fire. Joel: Are you saying more than QR codes? Larry: More than QR codes. Joel: Wow. Larry: More than the internet, more than your phone. Joel: Mind blown. Larry: So the good news is, wow, you can just go, if you have an AI and an API, you can build a booth here. The question that you have to solve is you're not shopping around to figure out what people have. What are you trying to solve? What is the problem you as an HR person is trying to solve? Define your problem. Then what I did is I had an HR tech parade. I brought in 16 vendors and said, here's the three problems we're trying to solve. Joel: That sounds fun. Larry: And we just brought them through technically. Chad: It sounds more like a circus. Larry: A little bit, but one, you're like, oh my God, I don't know anything. My mind was blown, but two, you get to compare and contrast right next to each other all day long. So that's in the book as well. Find out what you need, what's the problem? These guys don't sell solutions a lot of times. They just say, "Hey, look how cool my baby is. I'm the founder. Look at my pretty baby." I'm like, "I don't care about your baby. Solve my problem." Chad: Or it's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist or it's not a priority. Larry: Or a priority. Chad: Yes. Larry: So you're like, wow, this is cool. If you buy the shiny object, it's going to get dull very fast. Chad: Yes. Larry: If you're solving a problem you've already identified and talked about to your employees and say, "Now, we talked about growth in your career. Here's the tool that's going to help you do that", that makes it much more powerful... Joel: The people you're talking to, are they wanting one solution, one ring to rule them all? 'Cause we see a lot of companies trying to do everything for everybody. Chad: The easy button, baby. Joel: But then obviously we have integrations and I have my favorite text recruiting solution, I have my favorite chat bot. Is that what people are leaning toward or are they looking for the one solution for everything? Larry: Maybe next year there'll be more people coming together. I know a couple of these guys are selling together, three different companies selling on the same piece of paper, but you need a tech stack. There is no... It used to be go get people soft in the old days. Those days are over. These guys in this place here can innovate way faster than a Workday or an SAP, so you have to build a tech stack absolutely. Chad: So around that tech stack, one of the things that we've seen over the years is that there is so much redundancy because many of these core systems, these applicant tracking systems, they're acquiring companies, they're adding things and then they still have point solutions that are redundancies. When, and it is, is there in your book a point where you say, look, start with a clean sheet, blow this whole damn thing up and build from the ground up? Larry: Absolutely. So you're always going to have your basic HCM. People data are always going to be there. Chad: Core, core. Yeah. Larry: You have to have that. Chad: Recordkeeping, the things that you have to do. Yes. Larry: And with all these companies pull the data from, and give you ideas of what to do with your employee. So there's going to be a moment when you're going to say, all right, I have to get onboarding done. You have to do it. You buy the onboarding tool, it fits into your story, and then a year later, you're like, damn, there's someone better now. You're going to face it. There's no way that you're going to pick a solution now that's not going to be leapfrogged in a year or two, but you got to solve the problem today. What is your bigger problem? Chad: But we don't do that though. We keep what we've had forever and we close our eyes. Larry: It's over. Chad: And we say we've got it all figured out, but tech is fluid, the market is fluid, but these companies have not been fluid. So how much of the time should CHROs, VPs of TA, how much time should they be taking to reassess? Larry: Double what they're doing now. Chad: Okay. Larry: Double what they're doing now. Joel: So two minutes. [laughter] Chad: High five. Larry: High five. Perfectly delivered. Joel: Like a high five. Larry: No, it is good. So when I said generative AI is changing the world, it literally is and the bots aren't going to take your jobs. It's the people who know how to use this technology who are going to take your job. So if you're not thinking of a tech augmented reality, tech augmented leadership, tech augmented organizations, if you're not thinking that, you will be bypassed, your employees will leave you. Think about people coming out of college right now. They think that... They walk into a company and that's old antiquated HR technology we have to deal with. This is horrible. I have a free app at home that is 10 times faster than those. Chad: Yeah. Larry: So we have to as HR folks be... If you are not an HR person anymore, you are a technologist who sits in the CHRO seat, so be a technologist, be a transformation expert, start breaking glass. Some of it you're not going to be able to sweep up, but you have to start breaking glass today. Joel: Are you calling for term limits in the CHRO position, 'cause I feel like that's where you're headed with some of this? Larry: Yeah, I think absolutely. Even boards have to start thinking about, what are you doing to move the needle on those? Chad: Well, that's the problem though, I think, Larry, is that our CHROs are looking at themselves as cost centers, not the beating heart of the organization and when they need to go get that, they need more money to build the tech stack to be able to get the talent that the company actually needs, they're afraid to go ask. Larry: I agree. Chad: And they shouldn't be afraid. They should be bold but we're not. Why? Larry: Because people don't realize we're in the golden age of HR technology. We have caught up to everything else. Remember Salesforce, everyone went and spent all this money on Salesforce. We can do it now. Our people technology now is as good as any other technology. And if you're worried about getting budget, then you're worried about the same old stuff you're always worried about, what's our turnover, what's our time to fill? You can solve all of those problems with generative AI now. So I think the idea is build a strategy, bring in the technology to enable that strategy and that's true transformation over the long-term. Chad: Yeah, but the problem I think though, Larry, is that those metrics that you just talked about, the C-suite, they don't give a shit about that. What we should be doing is demonstrating how that impacts the bottom line. Larry: It's so easy to do that now. Yes, Fuel50, I also work with BetterUp. They're able to show... For BetterUp is coaching, right? Chad: Okay. Larry: They show salespeople in your organization who were coached versus those salespeople who weren't coached have bigger sales deals, faster sales cycles. Chad: Do they retain? Larry: And they retain... Chad: They say less turnover. Larry: And they're more productive. You go straight to the bigger revenue. You can prove better revenue. How does that not get to the board? Chad: And if you've got less turnover, then you've got less open positions and open positions only mean lost revenue. Larry: Lost revenue, lost activity. Chad: And we're not talking about that lost revenue, right? Larry: HR can now walk into the board and say, "I can give us better revenue, I can have more productive innovation and get products out the door faster." We can now prove that. Chad: Hot damn, Larry. Hot damn. Larry: We can prove it. Joel: Are they going to have those conversations? Chad: That's the question. Larry: They have to. Chad: That's the question. Larry: They have to. Joel: Yeah, I think they have to. Larry: So technology first, CHRO second. That's where we are. Joel: Back to what you said on skills augmentation. A lot of listeners in the past 12 months have been laid off, whether it's downsizing, right sizing. We're automating your stuff, we're offshoring it, we're outsourcing it. If I'm at home right now, I've been unemployed, I want to get back into the workforce, what skills, what actions would you recommend they take to make themselves much more marketable than they were a year ago? Larry: What if you're laid off? It's about self-care, it's not about you. You have to care about yourself. Work out, do stuff for yourself, keep your head straight. It's not you that you're not getting the job, and a lot of times it's the company. That's just one. Always focus on self-care when you're laid off. Two is, I have a list that I've sent to 20 laid off people of ways that you can use generative AI to help with your resume, to control your interviewing, to practice your interviewing. You can get... One of the guys who's a recruiter who used to work for me and got laid off. He went and got his prompt engineering certificate. He's like, "I'm just going to learn how to do this." Chad: There's a certificate? Larry: Yes, prompt engineering. Joel: Was that a linkedin learning course? Larry: I'm sure they have it. Joel: I'm sure they have it. Larry: I'm sure they have it, but I think it was out of Kellogg or Yale or something like that. So you have to know what generative AI is. You cannot hide. Even if you're just playing around with ChatGPT, there's thousands of them, but you, no matter what job you're going into, no matter where you are in the world, if you're laid off, you need to understand generative AI and play with these tools and understand what it is. Chad: Bard, Claude, all of them. Larry: Yeah, but even Bard's a great one. Just figure it out and get certificated, if that's even a word, in some of these tools 'cause you can't... Recruiters aren't looking at your resume anymore. It's a freaking bot that's looking at your resume. Joel: Yeah. Larry: I had one woman who put a job description to ChatGPT, then put her resume into ChatGPT and said, "How do I make my resume apply to this more to make me the best candidate?" Resume, better. So what five questions are they going to ask me and how do I best answer them? Chad: Was she hired? That's the question. Larry: She was. Chad: There you go. There it is, there it is. Larry: That's the only reason I tell that story. It's the only reason I tell that story. Joel: Let's flip the script 'cause you brought that up. Look, there's a lot of news and buzz around new AI tools where I can apply to hundreds, if not thousands of jobs with my new bot friend. How is the community, the employer space going to react, adjust, evolve to handle this new reality? Larry: If you're faking your resume 20 years ago, you're still going to get called out. [laughter] So if you're faking your resume now, you're still going to get called out. You can just fake it faster. Joel: Yeah. Larry: So the idea of getting to an interview is still the most important thing and that's a human interviewing you. So generative AI and technology doesn't replace the human being. It gets you to this human interaction faster and with better data. So you can play around, but once you get to that interview and you're asked real questions, you still have to have the proof, you still have to have the proof. Joel: Yeah. Larry: So I think there's ethical stuff we're going to deal with. We're going to go inside and outside of Congress. Chad: Oh yeah. Larry: There's all that coming. Chad: We Just had the EEOC commissioner in this seat. Larry: Is that right? Chad: Yeah, exactly. Larry: They're scared. I saw a lawyer... Joel: A tough act to follow, Larry. Larry: Yeah, I know. [laughter] I saw a lawyer... Joel: That's one hell of a fluffer. Larry: At a different... [laughter] A lawyer at a different commerce just stood on the stage and said, "You're at risk." That's how we started, "You're at risk." It's always on you. It's not about the technology. Chad: I mean, yeah, it was... Larry: But we're always at risk. Chad: Always at risk. Larry: But I see you have a question. Chad: So what's the name of the book again, Larry? Larry: It's called "The Power to Transform", and it's a field guide to building a human-centered, tech-enabled work culture. Chad: And that is Larry McAlister, everybody. Joel: Thank you, guys. Chad: Larry, if people want to actually connect with you... Larry: Just come to LinkedIn, larrymcalisterbook.com or LinkedIn, 1C1L. We're the poor ones. [laughter] We don't have extra letters. So that's how you can find me. Larry McAlister on... And our LinkedIn's the quickest way. Joel: And I'm guessing Amazon has some... Larry: Amazon has the book. Joel: Yeah, there you go, there you go. Chad: Amen. Larry: Buy it now. Joel: Buy a used copy at a discount, everybody. [laughter] Another one in the can, Chad. We out. Chad: We out. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of The Chad and Cheese Podcast, or maybe you cheated and fast-forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back, valuable time you could've used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey, or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckle heads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

The world is a volatile place. Inflation, conflict, elections and AI, to name a few, have meant a lot of things in business are taking a pause. Mergers and acquisitions are no exception. However, things are still moving, and signs of new life are everywhere. That's why we invited Georgios Markikis, managing partner at Venero Capital Advisors to the Textkernel booth in Paris at UNLEASH World to chat about the state of M&A. From the recent Clevy acquisition by Fountain to the current thawing of markets to how hungry private equity is at the moment to make things happen. Turns out, there's a lot of dry powder out there, which not only makes this interview interesting, but necessary for anyone who makes their living in workforce businesses. TRASNCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls, it's time for The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: Oh, yeah. What's up, everybody? It's Marie Antoinette's favorite podcast, aka The Chad and Cheese podcast. Chad: She lost her head over this podcast. Joel: I'm your co-host, Joel Cheeseman. Joined as always, the Gérard to my Depardieu, Chad Sowash is in the house. And we are just giddy, live from Unleashed World, from the Textkernel booth to welcome a show favorite, Georgios Markikus. [laughter] Georgios Markikus: Hi guys. Good to be back. Joel: He's the managing partner at Venero Capital Advisors. Welcome to the podcast again. Chad: Welcome back. Georgios Markikus: Yeah, thank you. Third time and then I can say that I'm a regular. Joel: Your fifth show you get a red velvet smoking jacket. So keep doing it. Your mom... Chad: With our big heads on the back. Joel: Your mom will be proud at some point of your accomplishments. Chad: We still have to get... We have to get Quincy's out. Joel: That's right. So some of our listeners don't know you. Chad: What? Joel: Give us a little Twitter bio about you and the company. Georgios Markikus: Yeah, so I'm managing partner at Venero Capital Advisors, so we are an M&A advisory firm focusing exclusively on HR tech and the future of work. We're the most active advisors in the space. So yeah, keen to talk about what's happening right now. Joel: And Chad says you have the most beautiful head of anyone that we've ever interviewed. Georgios Markikus: Oh, stop. Chad: It's a good looking head. Joel: It is. Georgios Markikus: Thank you. Joel: You guys can trade shaving techniques later. Chad: Yeah, you can't pull this off with a funky shaped gourd like yours. Joel: I know. I know. It's awful having a full head of hair. Anyway, anyway. Chad: So okay, so let's talk about this. Today versus two years ago, the market is so much completely, I mean it's like flopped, right? So tell us a little bit about what you're seeing in the market right now, differences, where you're excited, where you're seeing... Where is it going? Georgios Markikus: Absolutely. So two years ago, we were having boom time and then... Chad: Sugar rush. Georgios Markikus: Yeah. And then COVID hit and everything just collapsed. After COVID, we had what we call the post-COVID boom. So you had a surge in investment and a surge in M&A. Joel: Free money. Georgios Markikus: Free money. Seriously. Record levels. And then what happened? 2022, the markets collapsed, markets crashed and a lot of uncertainty in the market. Recession is coming perhaps, interest rates are going up. So what we saw is HR tech from an investment perspective wasn't affected dramatically day one, but over the months and the quarters we've seen a steady decline in investment. And Q3 just closed, we had the lowest number of funding rounds... Chad: Wow. Georgios Markikus: Since late 2018 and then lowest volume invested in the space. Now the question is what's been happening? And there's two things that have been happening. Number one, VCs, yes, they have been more diligent about who they invest in, but the interesting thing is that companies themselves have also not been coming to market as much. Why? Because over the last 18 months, they realized that they need to get to profitability. They've been reading the same headlines. They know that funding will be hard to get, debt financing is getting more expensive, so everybody has been coming leaner, right? Everybody has been focusing on cutting costs. Chad: Which is a good thing, right? Georgios Markikus: Yes and no. Chad: Okay. Georgios Markikus: Why? Good thing because everyone's been extending the runway, right? But what's happening to growth? You cannot be cutting costs and not affect your growth. So I think next year we'll be looking back to 2023 and 2023 will be a slow year for a lot of folks because they've been cutting costs. Chad: Sure, sure. Georgios Markikus: Alright, so it's interesting. Pros and cons to cutting costs. Joel: What are we going to see in terms of, you mentioned the unicorns, I assume there are down rounds happening or will be, valuations are going to plummet. What's going to happen to these unicorns that we talked about between 2020 and 2022 or three? Georgios Markikus: Yeah, interesting. Joel: You're choosing your words carefully. Georgios Markikus: Yeah 'cause last year, there was some panic raising where valuations took a hit. This year, the panic has subsided. So we're not seeing panic investing anymore or distress investing. So I think for the unicorns, probably they'll do okay because investors will bet that they will be winners ultimately. So I think they'll do okay. Chad: Plus they already have investment in it, and they don't want to lose that investment if it dies. Georgios Markikus: Exactly. So they'll double down. Chad: Yeah. Georgios Markikus: Exactly. Now the people who hurt probably are the ones who are maybe in the middle. They've raised funding, probably high valuations, but they haven't quite hit their metrics. Now they're forced to cut costs. They'll see growth slow down and they will be impacted. I think the unicorns will probably do okay. Joel: My sense is that the most successful ones are chomping at the bit to go shopping. My sense is there's a clearance rack of companies that are ready to be bought, which I'm guessing is your wheelhouse. Talk about that. Georgios Markikus: Yeah, so M&A, interesting. Different story for M&A. M&A volumes have remained very constant for the last couple of years. So we didn't see the slowdown that we've seen in investment. We haven't seen that in M&A. Very consistent volumes. And the other interesting thing that happened this year versus last year, valuations picked up quite a bit. Chad: Really? Georgios Markikus: Yeah. Yeah. So last year, we saw a big contraction, 2022, about 40% to 50%. This year... Chad: Wow, that was huge. Georgios Markikus: Well, still in line with public markets. Public markets collapsed by 50%. Workday, from 12 times to six times. But this year... Joel: Don't get me started on ZipRecruiter. Don't even get me started. Georgios Markikus: They got hit badly, yeah. Chad: Yes, they did. Georgios Markikus: By the way, they're not the only ones. Everybody in recruitment got hit. But this year, something interesting again has been happening. Valuations have been going up. Why? For two reasons. Firstly, companies haven't been forced to go to market anymore because they extended their runway, they cut costs, so there's been fewer distressed sales. For the companies that have been forced to come to market this year, the multiples were low, low single digits, really low multiples. But the companies that have been coming to market are the ones that choose to come to market and their KPIs are very strong. On the other hand, you have private equity with loads of cash that they haven't been able to deploy for a couple, you know, for at least one to two years. Keen to do good deals. So for the right assets with the right KPIs, these guys pay really, really high multiples. Chad: So it's a thinner market, but it's more healthy? Georgios Markikus: Yeah. Yeah. Chad: Right? Okay. Which is not a bad thing overall. I mean getting ideas on the market's one thing but there are a shit ton of bad ideas that are out there that actually make it to the market. We see them and you see them all the time. Yes. Georgios Markikus: We've seen them. Yeah we see them all the time. So yeah, but it's very interesting because I mean it was IntelliHR that was acquired earlier this year and that played out in public. It was a publicly listed company. It started out, initial bid for that company started at four times revenue, right? Which is relatively low. There was a bidding war and the final price was north of, I think, 11 or 12 times. So the starting price versus the final price shows you that for the right asset, buyers are willing to, and we've seen this in other situations as well, for the right assets, buyers are willing to pay a lot. Chad: What are those assets? I mean, it's not just technology, right? What are those assets? Georgios Markikus: Great question. We get asked this. So what is a good, what makes an asset in demand? Well, a couple things. First of all, the KPIs need to be good, right? Growth needs to be good. Profitability is very important these days, much more than a few years ago. Rule authority, you keep hearing about that much more today than a couple years ago. But also, you need to be differentiated. You cannot be another commodity asset that's undifferentiated, that does what others are doing. So you need to be a bit, you have your own moat and your own competitive kind of advantage and those assets attract a lot of attention. If you're just another, ATS for example is an example of a very competitive, very commoditized market. Those probably struggle to get really high multiples, but some others can do really well. Joel: So I'm hearing a little bit of optimism, but a little bit of skepticism. We've been waiting for the IPO markets to sort of break for over a year now. What's your take on that? We have a Personio that just raised, it's coming to America, it's talking about an IPO. There are companies here at the show that have been talking about IPO, ISEMS, Greenhouse, et cetera. Chad: Kinda backed out. Joel: What's your take on the IPO market? Is that going to break open in '24 or not? Georgios Markikus: In '24 possibly. We had some attempts by ARM and others to float this year. Joel: BIRKENSTOCK was huge. Chad: Instacart. Georgios Markikus: So, probably some false starts, but I think maybe, hopefully, '24. Remember with the stock markets, they move before the real economy reflects the upturn. So hopefully, by next year, the effect of all the interest rates and everything will have played out and we will start to see the central banks returning to focusing on growth as opposed to shrinking the economy, so if that happens as soon as that happens the markets will open up before we actually see this play out and then IPOs will resume. Joel: Is anyone in this space that you're like I'm really rooting for them because we haven't had a good publicly traded company in my lifetime. Is that going to change? Georgios Markikus: Look, I mean we have some great companies that, you know, from Personio, I think UKG probably is going to want to IPO at some point relatively soon. So I think we have some really good former startups who became unicorns who eventually, hopefully will come to market. And if those do well, then I think it's going to be a very strong signal for everybody in this space. So I think everyone would be rooting for some good IPOs in the sector to be successful. Chad: So we're at Unleash. It is busy as hell. Joel: Buzzing. Chad: There are just as many startups as there was back when the sugar rush was on. So I mean, this to me seems incredibly positive. Do you think that this is a false positive? Or do you think that we're still moving in the right direction? Georgios Markikus: No, no, I think we're moving in the right direction as things are changing, right? So a few years ago we had, well, we at Venera called the period of rapid innovation. So you had a lot of companies pop up that were addressing point solutions and very specific problems and those have started to consolidate. I think now the companies that you see here probably are more nuanced. I think they probably tackle problems that are real and they probably do that in a more differentiated way. I think you start to see the non-differentiated copycats probably fade away gradually. We had a lot of those in recent years. So I think the ones that are now surviving and certainly the ones that are spending the time and effort and money to exhibit are probably ones that think, look, we have something here. Joel: So one of your more recent deals was Fountain acquiring Clevy. I'm curious with the AI revolution, everyone's talking ChatGPT here, what kind of deals are you seeing percolating from your point of view? What's hot, what's being acquired, what's being shopped for? Georgios Markikus: Yeah, so AI was very hyped, but that's not necessarily a driver for M&A today. It helps, right? But it's not that someone is looking specifically for it. I mean, there are a couple vendors, or even some big names, I'm not going to name names, but some big guys who want to acquire. Joel: Georgios never names names, everybody. Chad: Not on the mic at least. Joel: Yeah, not on the mic. Georgios Markikus: But largely speaking, AI is a feature that a lot of companies promote as having, but that's not necessarily the driver for M&A. What is a driver is what I mentioned earlier, offering a product that targets a very specific pain point, a niche solution that, when I say niche, it's something that the big vendors will not spend the time and money to build it out. Chad: So they'll acquire it. Georgios Markikus: They will acquire it, right? The workforce management is very hot these days. Health and safety and security compliance, those areas are very much in demand. Interestingly, multi-country payroll is also... Chad: Oh, hell, I bet. Yeah. Georgios Markikus: Making a comeback behind the scenes. Some companies... Some vendors have released their own features, but also from an M&A perspective, there's things happening there. Chad: Seeing big growth in EOR too, right? I mean, there's huge growth in EOR. Georgios Markikus: And those guys are looking to make bolt-on acquisitions that complement their offering. They want to have more things that they can upsell to their customers. Learning is big, combined with skills, upskilling, reskilling. So yeah... Joel: It's not just the sizzle and the steak sometimes it's the side of Fritts everybody. [laughter] Georgios Markikus: There you go. Joel: Georgios Markikus everybody. Georgios, for those that want to learn more about your company or connect with you where would you send them? Georgios Markikus: Website venerocapitaladvisors.com or you can find us on LinkedIn. Joel: Always a pleasure. Chad that's another one in the can, time for another cappuccino. Chad: We out. Joel: We out. Outro: Wow, look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt but save some soap, because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite western, you can't quit them either. We out.

If rubbernecking pertained to podcasts, this one might be at the top of the list. It's just one car crash after another, and you'll find it hard to look away as you figuratively drive by. Whether it's Stepstone stepping in it, again, or Xing thinking the job board business is a good pivot from its failed attempt at taking on LinkedIn, we have you covered. Appetite for destruction not quenched? Then how about an all-Sell round of Buy-or-Sell, that'll have you in stitches. In fact, it got so bad, it turned into a commercial for one of House of HR's businesses. Gotta love Lieven for always talking us off the ledge. Call your therapist, or grab a beer, at least, and tune in now. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. [music] Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up, boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. [music] Joel Cheesman: Oh, yeah, just three guys waiting around for next year's October Fest. You are listening to the Chad and Cheese Podcast Does Europe. I'm your co-host, Joel Bonaparte Cheesman. Chad Sowash: This is Chad Marble Arch Sowash. Lieven Van Nieuwenhuyze: And today I'm just Lieven Van Nieuwenhuyze. [laughter] Joel Cheesman: And on this episode, Stepstone goes moonwalking, XING goes job boarding and a little buy or sell. Let's do this. Chad Sowash: Yeah. Joel Cheesman: What's up, gents? Chad Sowash: Where has Lieven been? Lieven Van Nieuwenhuyze: Busy. Is busy a place? Joel Cheesman: I love it. He's happy hour in Belgium. He's got the Belgian beer. He's looking laidback. He's in the all-black Euro uniform. I love it. [laughter] Lieven Van Nieuwenhuyze: It's navy blue. It's not black. Navy blue. Joel Cheesman: It's midnight. It's midnight is what it is. Chad Sowash: He's gone full-Lieven on us. [laughter] Intro: He's gone full-Lieven on us. [laughter] Lieven Van Nieuwenhuyze: I know my camera died and that's probably... Well, never mind. But the sound's still okay, so that's important. [laughter] Joel Cheesman: Oh my God. [laughter] Chad Sowash: Let's hit the shoutouts... SFX: Shoutout. [overlapping conversation] Chad Sowash: Let's hit the shoutouts. My first shoutout foes to competition. That's right. Lisbon-based Aptoide, an alternative Android app store, announced on Thursday that it has secured €8.5 million in a funding round from Digital Turbine. Aptoide aims to expand its presence in the US markets. [music] Chad Sowash: When you allow competition to flourish, you get better products unlike Apple. [laughter] Joel Cheesman: Yeah. Android's so bad it has to have some competition. [laughter] That's what's going on with that, my friend. That's what's going on. Alright, so my shoutout, can I interest either of you two in a $12,000 bottle of Scotch? SFX Welcome to all things Scottish. Our slogan is, "If it's no Scottish, it's crap!" Chad Sowash: If you're buying. Joel Cheesman: Alright. So news this week, a hidden stash of scotch whiskey discovered in a 13th century Scottish castle dating back to 1833... Chad Sowash: Wow. Joel Cheesman: Is set to be auctioned. The two dozen bottles of the historic scotch will be available for bidding between November 24th and December 4th and are expected to fetch around $12,000 each. While it's not confirmed where the whiskey was distilled or if it's even a single malt, it's preservation in a dark, cool cellar environment over the past two centuries has kept it in good condition. The exact number of bottles has not been disclosed, but it needs to be above 80 proof to be legally labeled as scotch. Despite the tasting notes, the allure of this 200-year-old scotch lies in its historical significance, making it a must-have for whiskey enthusiasts. Chad Sowash: Must-have. Joel Cheesman: Let's go in on a few bottles, boys. Let's go in on a few bottles. Chad Sowash: Yeah, you get the first one. [laughter] Joel Cheesman: You should see the pictures of these things. It's like the cobweb, it looks like motor oil in the bottle. Yeah, it's gotta be good. It's gotta be good stuff. SFX: Welcome to all things Scottish. Our slogan is, "If it's not Scottish, it's crap!" Joel Cheesman: Alright, Lieven, man in the dark, what you got? Lieven Van Nieuwenhuyze: Okay. My shoutout goes to Work ID and that's ID, like identity, not like a great idea, even though it's a great idea, by the way. It's a platform which was launched by Federgon and that's the National Staffing Agency. No, it's the Federation of the Belgian Staffing Industry, something like that. But basically, the whole idea is for once our competitors, we also have competitors, and House of HR work together to realize something we thought the government should have been doing for a long time, basically launching a platform where all those people who are actively looking for a job can put their information on and then they can decide who they want to share that information with. So it's not only personal information, but also like your driver's license, your identity card, all the stuff you need to send copies every time you apply. Lieven Van Nieuwenhuyze: And now just... You own the data. You say, "I'm going to adopt this or that." And with one push on the button, you say, "I'm going to send this to House of HR. I'm going to send it to Adecco." Of course, not to Randstad, but maybe to Manpower or something like that. So the candidate is in charge and whenever you want to, you can make changes and you decide when to share what. And if you stop sharing, you can. You won't be bothered again by those agencies once you have a job. So it's a great idea and it will save people looking for a job lots of time. And for once, it was nice working with our competitors. [laughter] Chad Sowash: It's CV wallet for Belgium. [laughter] Lieven Van Nieuwenhuyze: Yeah. It's something like an easy apply, but launched by the staffing industry. That's cool. Chad Sowash: Oh yeah. But it houses all of, I mean literally, a person's information and it's theirs. They have it. So literally, it's like a CV wallet. Yeah. No, that's awesome. Lieven Van Nieuwenhuyze: It's a CV wallet indeed. Chad Sowash: Yeah. Joel Cheesman: House of HR doing some housing. I love it. SFX: Alright, alright, alright. [laughter] Joel Cheesman: Almost as good as Chad going to London... Chad Sowash: I was gonna say, I'm already in Europe, Jesus. Joel Cheesman: Next month. Yeah, I know you. Chad Sowash: Yeah, yeah. Joel Cheesman: Is London still Europe? Lieven Van Nieuwenhuyze: Yeah. Chad Sowash: TAtech Europe, baby. December 4th through the 6th, Kirstie Kelly and I will be MC-ing the show. Alex Chukovski will be presenting his latest findings on Google for Jobs. Hung Lee will be performing a Brainfood Live session. And Adam Gordon, Matt, that British guy, Alder, the lovely Julie Sowash, Andre Wade, and a host of other smart people will be taking the stage. If you don't have tickets and you're already in London, for fuck's sake people, what are you waiting for? Go to chadcheese.com/events, register today. Joel Cheesman: Did someone say Hung Lee? SFX: What are you doing, Stepbro? [laughter] Joel Cheesman: This thing is going off the rails fast. That's fast. Let's... [music] Chad Sowash: Topics! Joel Cheesman: Alright. Germany-based job board operator, Stepstone is laying off approximately 215 employees, which amounts to about 5% of its 4,200 strong workforce. The company's CEO Sebastian Dettmers explained that the move is aimed at centralizing functions, optimizing operations and increasing overall efficiency. The affected areas and countries were not specified. Stepstone owned by Axel Springer generated about €1 billion in revenue in 2022 and the company operates in 30 countries under various brand names and is considering an initial public offering, or what the kids call IPO for Stepstone, pending market conditions, of course. Chad, times are tough for job boards. What are your thoughts on the layoffs at Stepstone? Chad Sowash: Yeah. I mean, on this week's show we talked about Indeed's latest market troubles. They're really a global force, right? Stepstone, not so much. I mean, they're mainly only prominent in Germany, correct me if I'm wrong. But Stepstone has more of a single prominence, which means the market lends itself to greater instability. This doesn't surprise me. Now, let's get into Sebastian's letter. In the letter that he sent to employees. CEO Sebastian Dettmers said many areas of the company had become "too complex and inefficient". Okay, my question is, who the fuck's fault is that? All that says to me is that during the time when it was good, Sebastian allowed the organization to become bloated. Chad Sowash: Now they're closing an entire office in Sweden and that's more than head count. So it's interesting. It doesn't surprise me, but it's just funny how they kinda like try to weave the narrative around inefficiencies. It's like, dude, you were the fucking CEO when all those inefficiencies were happening. So that means you mismanaged the organization and 215 people had to be let go. SFX?: 60% of the time, it works, every time. [laughter] Joel Cheesman: You mentioned, I think last week's podcast, and we talked about sort of a lot of job boards and industry players that released quarterly earnings and where things were going, and Indeed's parent company, Recruit Holdings said something very interesting. They said one of the reasons for the down earnings was, "evolving labor market". I talked about the four horsemen of the apocalypse for job sites and I think it goes for Stepstone as well. And those four apocalypse horsemen are, one, Google and LinkedIn. LinkedIn I think is right behind Stepstone in terms of market share in Germany. Google, obviously, we've seen it's a race to the bottom. Google's gonna commoditize job postings. And Google for Jobs isn't quite what it is in Europe than it is in America, but it is a sign of things to come for Europe. And I think Stepstone is at least seeing some of that. Joel Cheesman: I think automation is the second horseman. We're seeing obviously robots, whether it be software or actual robots taking jobs. And companies are certainly skeptical about what the workforce will look like in the future. Europe is no exception. AI, I mentioned interview with Elon Musk talking about a future where there are actually no jobs whatsoever. You gotta start taking some of that rhetoric into consideration. And the fourth one is the gig economy in Europe, we've talked maybe even more than we have in America in terms of a very diverse set of solutions that people can make money in the gig economy. All that spells insecurity, instability for job boards. And I think that we're seeing that with Stepstone. Now, the good news for them, they own a little thing called Appcast, which is arguably part of the future programmatic advertising. Joel Cheesman: They current... They recently bought Bayard Advertising, creating AppcastOne. So to me, the better play for Stepstone, particularly if they're going public, is in the Appcast brand, not the Stepstone brand. I doubt they'll do that. But in terms of a global brand, Appcast has a better shot at making waves than Stepstone. So the IPO will be very interesting what market they go on. Is it the German market? Do they go for the American market? Those are obviously different questions. But look, times are tough for job boards. They're not gonna get any easier based on the four horsemen that I outlined. Stepstone is not immune from what's going on and they're gonna have layoffs. I doubt this is the only one. This is only 5% of their workforce. I think more is coming. More pain is coming for Stepstone employees. Chad Sowash: Pain. Lieven Van Nieuwenhuyze: Pain. Maybe they're going to automate the firing procedure to make it more efficient in the coming years. Chad Sowash: Sure. Sounds German. Yeah. Joel Cheesman: They could sell it. They could sell it as a solution. Tell their customers. Chad Sowash: We've seen Appcast do incredible things in the US, but penetration isn't the greatest in Europe and the rest of the world. What do you think the long term is for that? Lieven Van Nieuwenhuyze: Now you're going to start promoting Appcast just when I signed with... I didn't actually sign, but I made an agreement with VONQ to work with them. And now suddenly it's all Appcast. No, no, no, we're going to work with VONQ. Joel Cheesman: Well, no, Appcast just happens to be connected to Stepstone. There are other programmatic solutions. Lieven Van Nieuwenhuyze: I know, I know, I know. First, got back to Stepstone. When I read the whole article, I taught for the first time in years, Stepstone is actually helping to solve our structural employee scarcity by putting their own people on the market, which is really nice of them. [laughter] Lieven Van Nieuwenhuyze: I can imagine cost-cutting is something they really needed and that's what they do right now and it might save them some time, but they're heading the same way Monster went. And... Chad Sowash: Yes. Lieven Van Nieuwenhuyze: You can buy some time by cutting those costs, but if you just... They're going to buy or they're going to invest in AI, they said. So they have an outdated business model. What are they going to do? Are they going to install a vacancy writer? Are they going to use some kind of a GPT-based matching engine? The same system will still be outdated. I mean, they have a job board when Indeed and Google for Jobs are playing. They just have a credit-based system which was pretty neat 20 years ago. So I don't think Stepstone has... The model they have right now, they will be able to save it, I don't think so. But as you say with Appcast, maybe if they're going that way, they might. But then like you said, firing only 5% of the people is just the beginning, I fear. They'll need a totally different team to do something like that. Joel Cheesman: And oddly, we have two Europeans on the show and only one American. You guys... We hear a lot over here about the German economy that they're in recession, that times aren't great in Germany. Can you guys speak to... So what you're seeing in Europe in regards to the German economy? Lieven Van Nieuwenhuyze: They're having hard a time since they are the biggest economy in Europe. So for example, for Belgium, it's a problem because they used to export a lot to Germany. And if things are going to slow down in Germany, the Belgians will feel it also. So it's a chain reaction. Also, Germany is having big problems with their cars and they're a major car manufacturer. The big luxury brands are German. They still are. Tesla, for example, is hurting them big time. And the fun part is they even opened a big factory in Germany. So Tesla is now a German manufacturer, but I don't think Mercedes and BMW liked it. So our German economy is going down and I think it will last very... I mean, a recession normally takes 12-18 months to recover. So we need 12-18 months to recover from a... I'm not sure if we see anything getting better real soon, maybe summer next year, something like that. But what is it now? 5% decrease, something like that. It's not the biggest recession, but it's one. Joel Cheesman: So I'm guessing that if they go IPO, none of us will be buying shares in Stepstone. [laughter] Lieven Van Nieuwenhuyze: No. Chad Sowash: Yeah. There's no way in hell. I mean, they bought some halfways decent tech. Obviously, they bought Appcast. But there's also Mya systems, right? It's almost like they're not creating products to be able to address what the market needs, to be able to get individuals engaged, candidates engaged better. 'Cause right now you need to be able to get the candidates engaged on the top of the funnel so that you can find out if they're actually fricking qualified for the jobs that they're applying for. Right? I mean, I just think there's some great services they could put in place to be able to really increase their value quotient. And I mean, that's the big key that we just saw from the AIM group that Indeed has overtaken Stepstone and overall traffic. So, this is not just a downward trend, I think for them, that they can easily come back from. It's gonna be hard. But they've got a lot of firepower. The question is, can they use it? I just don't know if they know how to use the weapons they have. Joel Cheesman: I think Lieven made a great point is they're Monster 2.0. And unless they make some of these big bets, they're gonna go down the same road that Monster has in Europe and elsewhere that they do business. So to me, that was very prescient that he said that. So Mya, that was... I fricking forgot that they acquired Mya. Chad Sowash: Yeah. Joel Cheesman: And this is what we do. They haven't done jack as far as I can tell with that technology. And I don't even think that AppcastOne has integrated Mya technology. 'Cause it's a perfect funnel to say like, "We'll get the jobs posted. We'll put people in the funnel. We'll pre-screen them with conversational AI." That makes sense to me. Chad Sowash: Yeah. Joel Cheesman: And maybe it will eventually happen, but it seems really disparate right now. Chad Sowash: They pushed it off to Total Jobs in the UK. I mean, it's... Joel Cheesman: Yeah. Chad Sowash: It's just really weird. They've got all of these... They've got some pretty damn good weapons that it just seems like they don't know how to use them. Joel Cheesman: We'll be right back. Alright guys, second verse, same as the first, almost. Sticking with Germany, XING, the Hamburg-based professional social network recently announced a pivot to a job board model. The revamped homepage allows users to search for job offerings using various filters and settings while integrated anonymized Kununu employee reviews provide insights into companies. Passive job seekers with complete profiles can be found and contacted by 20,000 recruiters and active members with regularly updated profiles can apply to positions using an integrated CV generator. Currently, XING has approximately 22 million users and 1.4 million job ads. Both XING and Kununu are owned by New Work SE, a publicly-traded company in Germany. Chad, your thoughts on the XING news? And that's XING with an X for everyone in the US. Chad Sowash: Who the fuck thought this was a good idea? I mean, Indeed switched from a job search engine into a job board and Recruit Holdings recently reported that Indeed's job posting revenues were down by what? 50%? Wasn't it 50% [laughter] Joel Cheesman: Yeah. Chad Sowash: So why in the hell would XING switch from a LinkedIn-like social media platform into a job board? I mean, LinkedIn has a job board component within the actual platform, so to me, this defies all fucking logic. Linkedin is a professional social network, which means it's more of a lifestyle platform, while job boards like XING is now are only used when you're looking for a job. FX?: That escalated quickly. Chad Sowash: You've officially lessened the need for me to use your platform on a daily basis, which dramatically lessens the products and services that XING can advertise or even develop and sell to the market. So who is making these fucking decisions? [laughter] Lieven Van Nieuwenhuyze: They had to do something, so why not that? [laughter] Chad Sowash: Yeah. Let's just go ahead and constrain the revenue opportunities that we have. Joel Cheesman: I mean, they should have just become a dating site if it was like you had to do something. Lieven Van Nieuwenhuyze: With webcam models. That's an idea. [laughter] Joel Cheesman: I gotta... I'm gonna go. This is a deep cut by me and if... Chad Sowash: Oh my God. Joel Cheesman: And if you're new to the industry, just fast-forward a little bit. But the deep cut here is Jobster's Jason Goldberg, I don't even know if you know this, Chad, so after Jobster, he created a company called Social Median. It was kind of a dig-ish bookmark social thing. Chad Sowash: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Joel Cheesman: XING bought it... Chad Sowash: Oh, Jesus. Joel Cheesman: In 2008. Chad Sowash: Oh, suckers. Joel Cheesman: And Jason Goldberg was the Chief Product Officer at XING for the year of 2008. He sold his company to XING for $7.5 million. Anyway, that's my deep cut on XING. Chad Sowash: Wow! Joel Cheesman: I don't know when we'll talk about him... Chad Sowash: Good one. Good one. Joel Cheesman: Again. So they were founded in 2003, basically when LinkedIn was founded. They were LinkedIn alternative to Europe. I think they wanted to be the LinkedIn of Europe. Of course, LinkedIn became the LinkedIn of Europe and social media... And XING became this sort of like, "What the hell are we?" They've had job postings I think for a long time. So it's like, "If we can't compete with LinkedIn, we might as well have job postings." But I think they're fourth behind Indeed, Stepstone, LinkedIn, some of those that we talk about, in Europe. Joel Cheesman: So they're like sort of middle of the pack for job postings. This is a Hail Mary, basically. I mean, they're a publicly traded company. The stock year-to-date is down 50%. So shareholders are like, "You guys better do fucking something or the stock's going to zero." So it's like, "What's the shortest bridge for us to start making some money? Well, job postings. We have people here. We have some people that have posted jobs. Let's just be a job board and roll with it." But this is a Hail Mary. This is a stinker. This is hot garbage. This is going nowhere. Chad Sowash: Yes. Joel Cheesman: This is just a big, big pile of shit. This thing's been around since 2003. It's a zombie company. They're gonna squeeze it for as much profit as they can, hopefully sell it at some point for some sort of profit. But this is, yeah, clearance rack at TJ Maxx type stuff. XING is going nowhere, baby. Close it up. Last person out, turn off the lights at XING. Bring back Jason Goldberg. That's a better strategy. [laughter] Chad Sowash: Oh God, don't do that. Jesus. Lieven Van Nieuwenhuyze: I mean, LinkedIn recently announced they have one billion users right now. I think one or two weeks ago, they said at one billion. And even my German colleagues which are pretty conservative, even they don't use XING anymore. They also made the switch to LinkedIn. So Germany was like the last stronghold for XING and they held on pretty long. But there was one other site in Germany, not XING... Oh, sorry. In Poland. And I keep forgetting the name because it's kind of complicated if you don't speak Polish to remember. They never really were into LinkedIn as well and I think they also surrendered now. So it's a lost cause. But you said they're trying to make some money out of it or maybe try to sell it, but who would buy it? I mean, if you buy something like that, you must at least have something to do with the recruitment business. And if you have something to do with recruitment business, you won't buy it. Joel Cheesman: Have Rica walk in with her platinum card and just buy the thing and just throw House of HR jobs on or something. Lieven Van Nieuwenhuyze: She has... SFX: Winning. Lieven Van Nieuwenhuyze: She has a policy about buying... Joel Cheesman: Garbage? [laughter] Lieven Van Nieuwenhuyze: The best in class. So she would be buying LinkedIn, I think. Joel Cheesman: Oh my God. Chad Sowash: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Joel Cheesman: If they're not a stronghold in Germany, it's over. Chad Sowash: Now. Joel Cheesman: At least be a German LinkedIn and be really good at German stuff. Chad Sowash: In the press release, they're talking it up. They're saying that, "Hey look, this is gonna be great... " Joel Cheesman: Oh yeah. Chad Sowash: "Because we've got 22... " Was it 22 million users? "We have 22 million users that we are literally going to fucking bombard with staffing companies." Lieven Van Nieuwenhuyze: They'll be happy. Chad Sowash: They're gonna lose. They're gonna lose their subscribers left and right. They're already not using the platform. Now they're going to go into the platform. So you're gonna start to see their usage go up. It's only so that they can delete their shit and get the hell out. Joel Cheesman: So moving on from the Dumb and Dumber portion of the show. Let's go to our Buy or Sell portion of the show. You know how it works, guys. We talk about three companies, startups that have recently gotten funding. I'll read a summary and each of us buys or sells that company. Are you ready to play Buy or Sell? First up, we have Empion. The Berlin-based company has raised €6 million in a seed funding round. They offer an automated headhunting solution using AI and cultural matching to connect talent with companies based on skills and cultural fit. The company previously raised €2.4 million in a pre-seed round. It has clients like Personio in their portfolio. Chad, are you a buy or sell on Empion? Chad Sowash: So €2.4 million in a pre-seed round, and then you get €6 million in a seed round? That's pretty legit cash and that's impressive. I'm really interested in the large language models and how we start to use large language models, but when I saw they were using matching for skills and, wait for it, culture fit, it just smells like there's too much bias in the air in this machine. So it's a sell for me. You drop the bias and I might be a buy next time, but cultural fit, a match for... Are you fucking kidding me? No. Joel Cheesman: Oh, that's a sell for Empion. Okay. So a little side note, the founders look like they belong in your favorite new indie band and not like running a startup. And literally guys, the company page, everyone is in a black shirt. It's like Sprockets on steroids, this company. But that's... Chad Sowash: They've all gone Lieven. Joel Cheesman: That's a side note for... Yeah, it's like very... It's so German, it's ridiculous. It's like, "Everybody, put on the black shirts and grease back the hair and whatever." So anyway... But they have PhDs. They're... I'm sure they're incredibly intelligent. I kid a little bit, but yeah, they look like your favorite indie band, not your favorite startup. So they're in this no man's land of they wanna be sort of scientific and technical and they wanna be kind of job board-y. And when you go to the site, that's what it feels like. But then they want you to fill out a test. So it's not search for a job. It's like take the test. Well, there's nothing I love more than taking a test when I go to a website, right? Let's see, TikTok, bug fights, or take a test on this site that I've never heard of. So unless they're gonna drop all these millions on, I don't know, I guess, Bundesliga advertising in Germany or whatever, however it's pronounced... Chad Sowash: Bundesliga, yes. Joel Cheesman: I don't see much of an opportunity to get into customers or candidates. It doesn't seem like a software that you can plug into an ATS or integrate it into something that people are using to apply. So for me, it's just like in this no man's land of expecting job seekers to do this lengthy test, but we're not quite a SaaS business. So for me, I'm very confused. Although I wanna listen to some indie music when I go to the site. For me, it also... It's gotta be a sell for me. But I'd love to have the founders on Firing Squad if they're out there listening. Lieven Van Nieuwenhuyze: I wanted to look into their pricing structure. So I went to the site and I saw they had some kind of a chatbot. And in these large language model times, I love chatbots, so I gave them a chance. And I couldn't actually type anything. I had to make a choice first. "What is your question about?" And I had four options. So I found pricing questions. Okay, made sense. I clicked pricing questions. And then it said, okay, another drop down menu, "How many employees do you have?" So I chose over 2,000. And then I immediately got an answer, "Great. I will connect you with one of our sales specialists. What is your email?" And then I gave up. I mean, they claim to have AI and they have a chatbot which just asked my email when I want to know what the pricing structure is. So no, if this is the way they work, then definitely sell. SFX: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Chad Sowash: That feels like this entire episode thus far, Joel. Joel Cheesman: Yeah, that's three sells. Dumb and Dumber and one sell. Let's see if the show gets any better. Alright, let's go to our next contestant, Netherlands-based Swipe4Work. And that's the number four in Swipe4Work, guys. They've secured €400,000 in funding. They plan to use the funds to enhance its product, integrate AI applications and expand the platform all across the Netherlands. The app, which connects employees and employers based on skills, personality and interests, eliminates the need for CVs and traditional cover letters. They claim around 10,000 downloads and aim to cover the entire country in the future. And here's the kicker, guys. They're looking to introduce visual elements in job listings such as company videos. Wooh! Chad, are you a buy or sell on Swipe, the number four, and Work? Chad Sowash: I agree with, I think the name is Niek Huizenga, the investment manager at G-Force who says, "In these times of staff shortages, the traditional job platforms are simply not good enough." And I totally agree. But downloading an app for job search is just fucking stupid. Job search isn't a lifestyle activity. I don't do it every day. I don't need it on my phone. Unless you make it more sticky, you make a part of the process, that's great, but I have to download an app to use this thing. It's a sell. SFX: Boo! Joel Cheesman: So I've met quite a few Dutch folk in doing this show, Chad, and they always strike me as some of the most sort of thoughtful, intelligent, polite people that I've met. They're kind of like the Canadian of... The Canada of Germany. They're kind of a nicer, humbler... Lieven Van Nieuwenhuyze: Dutch people? I think you're getting them mixed up with Belgian people. Joel Cheesman: I'm trying to be nice before I kill the guy. But they're thoughtful people, from what I've experienced. Can we agree on that, Lieven, or no? Lieven borders the Netherlands and they've probably been at war for a thousand years. So they don't necessarily like each other. Lieven Van Nieuwenhuyze: Flemish people are like the polite, introvert version of Dutch people. Dutch people aren't polite. You can say a lot of Dutch people, but they're not polite. They're very, how do you say it, noisy, very noisy, always when they enter a room, everyone will have seen they entered. No, they're not polite. But I love them. I love Dutch people, but... We have plenty of Dutch colleagues. Joel Cheesman: Alright. Enough with the Netherlands commentary. Let's get to the company. Alright. The name sucks. Dude, any name that has like a number in it sucks. Anything that's associated with swipe is dating now. So if you try to throw that into a work site, forget about it. I gotta download some shit to get to this. That's so 2010. Come on. Innovation is now videos in job postings? Come on, man. I know Europe's behind the times, but that's innovation? I just... SFX: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills! Joel Cheesman: Granted, they've only gotten €400,000. So it's a small bet at this point. There may be a feature somewhere down the line. Chad Sowash: They can fail fast. Joel Cheesman: Yeah, they can fail fast and go drink some Heineken and hang out on the waterfront. Chad Sowash: Yeah. Joel Cheesman: But this is a sell for me as well. Lieven? Lieven Van Nieuwenhuyze: No, they can't go back to being noisy. No, no, no, no. No, it's a sell for me as well. I'm not going to talk about it. [laughter] Joel Cheesman: He's not talking about it. That means crickets. That means a big sell rating, everybody. Alright, let's get to the last company in this train wreck of a podcast. Joel: Slinger. Joel Cheesman: UK-based Slinger is your favorite new heavy metal band. No, it's a startup in our space. They raised £500,000 in pre-seed funding. Slinger is a hospitality employment platform that aims to replace traditional CVs, where have we heard that before, with videos, where did we hear that before, and creatively written submissions. Job seekers are vetted in advance and shifts claimed on the platform are instantly secured. The funding round was led by Google for Startups Black Founders Fund, as well as some other Slinger plans to use the investment to expand the team and focus on mentorship, upskilling, interview preparation and work experience solutions. That's a mouthful. Chad, are you a mouthful on a buy or sell rating for Slinger? Chad Sowash: I'm gonna re-quote something that you said. "Slinger replaces outdated CVs with, with videos and creatively written submissions." In a world of better technology... Joel Cheesman: In a world... Chad Sowash: Verifications, simulations and automated processes, we don't need candidates for hospitality jobs to provide creatively written submissions. We need to ensure that people can actually do the goddamn job. So replacing a resume with a subjective and biased filled process is not the answer. This is a sell. Let's just get over it. This is a fucking sell. Joel Cheesman: So I wax poetic about the Dutch people I know. I won't go into the Brits that I've met... Chad Sowash: Thank God. Joel Cheesman: In the past five years or so. But I was expecting a little bit more than video integration in this stuff. I struggled with this one more than the other two because it does have the automated, the instant shifts. I like the diversity play. I like that Google got behind this company, which means there's something there. Again, it's a small bet. It's £500,000, which means Google's probably just got that in the couch cushions and they wanna throw it around to some businesses that fill their need, fill the prerequisites for them. This is a squirt gun in a gunfight. This is a big nothing burger. This is innovation dressed up as your favorite royal. I don't know. But this has been a real disappointing segment for Europe in Buy or Sell. I hope that you guys step it up in 2024 'cause this for me is the hat trick of sales for Slinger. Although I want a t-shirt and it better be like heavy metal-influenced. Lieven, save us from this disaster. Chad Sowash: Or a porn site. Joel Cheesman: They can sell Slinger domain to XING, and then XING can be a dating site called Slinger. There you go. I fixed everybody's problem. Lieven Van Nieuwenhuyze: Their domain is Slingerstaff. That's the one, right? Slingerstaff.com. 'Cause I looked for Slinger and I found 150 sites, but not one of them was into recruitment. So I think I found them, Slingerstaff. SFX: Oops. Winning. Lieven Van Nieuwenhuyze: You said something, Chad, I thought was interesting before about, you don't want something installed in your phone for a job because you hope you're not going to look very long for a job and then you won't need it anymore. So you don't need to install an app. And maybe it is the case with hospitality jobs because in many cases, it's something you do next to your real job. It's like helping out you on the weekends at a festival or something. Hospitality. And then an app might be nice to just find something to do during weekends, which is basically what NOWJOBS is doing and doing very well. So if you need an app for hospitality work, then you download NOWJOBS and you'll be very happy. There's no way you'll need Slingerstaff. [laughter] Chad Sowash: This turned into a commercial for NOWJOBS. Lieven Van Nieuwenhuyze: This is a commercial for NOWJOBS without any shame. If you need something, you'll use NOWJOBS. You won't be using Slingerstaff, which makes it totally ridiculous for me to buy it. So I won't. I will sell. Joel Cheesman: Sell Slinger, buy NOWJOBS, everybody. [laughter] SFX: Alright, alright, alright. Lieven Van Nieuwenhuyze: That's the whole idea. [music] Joel Cheesman: That is another episode of the Chad and Cheese Podcast Does Europe. We out. Chad Sowash: We out. Lieven Van Nieuwenhuyze: We out. Outro: Thank you for listening to... What's it called? A podcast. The Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology. But most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shoutouts of people you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese. Not one. Cheddar, blue, nacho. Pepper Jack, Swiss. There's so many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anywho, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way, you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It's so weird. We out.

Can we interest you in voice-driven AI algorithms to offer personality insights for the candidates you're looking to hire? Your current crop of employees? A start-up called Koios is betting that you will. OK, so skills-based insights are all the rage right now, thanks to organizations like Plum, HiringBranch and others, but personality insights? The boys are skeptical, but welcome Tom Sherwood, co-founder and CEO at Koios on Firing Squad to find out what all this witchcraft is about. Does he leave unscathed? Abracadabra, Holmes! You gotta listen to find out. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. Intro: Like Shark Tank? Then you'll love Firing Squad. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to put the recruiting industry's bravest, ballsiest, and baddest startups through the gauntlet to see if they've got what it takes to make it out alive. Dig a foxhole and duck for cover kids. The Chad and Cheese Podcast is taking it to a whole other level. Joel: Oh yeah, it's your bartender's favorite podcast, everybody, aka the Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheesman. Joined, as always, the crackers to my cheese, Chad Sowash is in the house. And this is Firing Squad. And we... Chad: You called me a cracker? Joel: Hey, hey, don't go there. Chad: You said it. Joel: We haven't even introduced the guest yet. Let's introduce Tom Sherwood. He's the co-founder and CEO of Koios. Tom, good day to you, sir. Tom Sherwood: Good morning. Good morning. Thank you for having me on. Joel: I love when the Brits are on 'cause, they get points for sounding smarter than us right out the gate. Chad: Which is easy. Joel: So, Tom, we go fast with Firing Squad. Let's get to you real quick. We'll talk about the company a second, but tell us about Tom. What makes you tick? Tom Sherwood: Yeah, so military veteran, five years in the artillery, and then joined the big bad world of recruitment that kind of opened my eyes to everything. But, yeah, what makes me tick? Sport, my family. I've got three young kids that keep me on my toes. I'm traveling this week, so I'm embracing eight hours of sleep a night. Joel: How do you have three kids? You're 15. How do you have three kids? Tom Sherwood: I am 35. Joel: I joke. I joke. Tom looks young, everybody. That's Tom. Tell Tom what he's wanting... Chad: Well, welcome, Tom, first and foremost. But this is how a Firing Squad is going to play out. At the sound of the bell, you're going to have two minutes to pitch, Koios. At the end of two minutes, we're going to hit you with about 20 minutes of Q&A. Be sure to be concise, or you might get hit with the crickets, which means tighten your game up. At the end of Q&A, you are going to receive one of these from both of us. Either big applause. Newton was hit by an apple. Chad: We predict that you're going to get hit by a huge bag of cash. Golf clap. You're no Einstein, but you just might be able to make this equation work. And last but never least, the Firing Squad. Even Bill Nye, the science guy, is turning his nose up at this stinker. Scrap it and try again. Are you ready for Firing Squad? Tom Sherwood: Let's do it. Joel: All right, Tom, your two minutes starts right now. Tom Sherwood: So, Koios is a psychometrics platform which has been built to remove the need for self-assessment in the world of psychometrics. We set out to change the candidate experience initially. So, previously, people would have experience where you have to complete a half an hour self-assessment. You answer some questions about whether you're the life and soul of the party, etcetera, etcetera. We set out to remove that. So, we leverage deep learning to predict personality based on the acoustic makeup of your voice. So, from just 90 seconds of free speech, we can build a completely personalized psychometric insight report on an individual. So, that could be used initially for your current workforce. Tom Sherwood: It's all hosted onto one platform where individuals, employees, managers, leaders, people leaders can all see the report. They can see how each other likes to collaborate, how each other likes to communicate. And we also just yesterday released Phoebe, which is our AI assistant. So, you can interact with Phoebe, have a chat with her about people's personalities. Tom Sherwood: So, for example, if you have an issue about someone's motivation in the workplace, as a manager, I think I can go onto your profile, Joel. Joel, and be like, got a meeting with Joel. He's underperforming. How do I best communicate this whilst keeping him motivated? And it will give you some actions about the best way to speak to you based on your psychometrics. And you can find out more details at getkoios.ai. Joel: Clearly, he wants a good score from me by telling me that I'm underperforming, Chad. That's not a good way to start. Chad: Everybody knows that, Cheesman. Tom Sherwood: I had to pick one of you. I was like, which one am I going to pick? Chad: Good call. Intro: All right. I always talk about the name. Yours is one of the worst ones, I think, that we've had on the show. So, Koios, did I say it right? Chad said Koios or something. Is it Koios? Tom Sherwood: Koios. So, Koios was the Greek titan of intelligence. Joel: Yeah, and his dad was Uranus or something, right? I researched that. So, anyway, that's good, Chad. That's good. All right. So, Koios, how do you spell it? Is it K-O-Y? Is it K-O-I-O-S? Like, I think there's some confusion in terms of a prospect or someone that wants to learn more about you. Koios.com is not owned by you. The URL that you've used is getkoios.ai. So, Koios.ai isn't even your URL. Like, not since gocanvas.io have we had a URL like this. So, help me understand and sell your name to me and the URL. Tom Sherwood: So, Koios is spelled K-O-I-O-S. It is symmetrical as well, so it's nice on the eye, according to branding experts. Chad: There's not another K on it, Tom. It's symmetrical if it would have another K. Okay? So, let's get beyond that. Carry on. Tom Sherwood: So, yeah, Koios.com obviously isn't owned by us. It's owned by a quite old-school software networking business. Koios.ai is owned by somebody, and we're in the process of looking to acquire that, because it's not being used. The certificates are out of date, so they bought it and haven't used it. So, we have getkoios.ai for the time being, and we are looking at getting the others. Joel: All right. It's not a great answer, but it is an answer. I'm going to go from sort of tough to I'm going to give you some credit here. You've got some rich experience in recruitment with some big brands. I'm going to drop Snap, Spotify, Apple. Joel: I think Korn Ferry is in there somewhere. Like you have some really rich experience with recruitment. So tell me about what you've learned in your experience that you can bring over to Koios that has helped build the company and the vision. Tom Sherwood: I think it's about really valuing the candidate experience. For far too long, internal teams and also as an industry, I think over the past kind of 10-15 years has changed significantly. It used to be all about the client and the candidate was just a commodity. Whereas actually the candidate experience is now at the forefront. And that was something that I learned when I was at Robert Half actually, not Korn Ferry. Joel: My bad. Tom Sherwood: When I first started there, it was about championing the candidate. The candidate is king the whole way throughout that. And I think that's something we learned to empathize as the candidate is kind of the customer. And they are the most important part of this. And if you're empowering the customer to have a great journey, and they're enjoying that, and as they onboard into a business, then they are going to be your future leaders. That's kind of what we're kind of using as a founding team. Alex, my co-founder, himself, he works in TA with McKinsey, etc. So we have a very similar perspective from that side. Chad: Okay, so you talk about... I'm gonna go back to the name real quick. When you guys were looking at Koios, obviously you, is it Koi? It's Koios. There it is. Joel: Koios, not Kayos. Chad: Koios, like the fish. Tom Sherwood: Like the carp. Joel: Very chaotic. Tom Sherwood: Like the carp. Chad: Koios, okay. Tom Sherwood: Yeah. Chad: So when you were doing the research on this, obviously, you wanted something strong, like Greek God. But one thing, how much research did you perform on how many companies are actually named Koios today? Tom Sherwood: Yeah, we looked into it. Yeah. The actual name isn't trademarked. There are a few companies trying to use it. I mean, to be transparent, we actually were originally called, before we came out of Stealth, we were called Culture Labs. And so it was a very, very kind of different business. Chad: Wait, two words I can spell. Wait, two words I can spell. Okay, carry on. Tom Sherwood: So we were originally called Culture Labs. And when we were speaking to our investors. Joel: And they were dot-com too, Chad. They were dot-com too. Anyway, go on. Tom Sherwood: It's 2023. Come on, guys. [laughter] Joel: It's HR. Come on, Tom. Tom Sherwood: We are changing the industry. We are trying to bring them into the 21st century. Joel: Carry on. Chad: Ooh, okay. So just so that you know, there are 13 companies just in Florida alone named Koios. Okay. Tom Sherwood: Yeah. Chad: So it's very popular, but you're not looking for popular. You're looking at trying to get discovered. Now back to your... Joel: Definitely a Google issue, Chad. If you just search Koios, they are not anywhere. Chad: Oh, God. It's worse than that. Joel: Yeah. Okay. Chad: And they had the dot-com. God, I didn't know that. I wish you wouldn't have said that. I'm about to explode right now. So you were in recruiting, which I think is amazing. So it gives that really great experience. But you weren't in psychometric testing. So why didn't you go more toward efficiencies, automation, those types of things that are incredibly cool? You talked about Phoebe, the assistant. Why didn't you go toward that versus psychometric testing? Do you have a background in psychometric testing? Why was this something that you thought you had to do? Tom Sherwood: I've always found psychology and behavioral psychology fascinating, whether that be in sport, whether that be in high performance business culture, whether that be in a military world. I've always found psychology fascinating from that perspective. And initially we actually set out to do it. It was to do with processes and automation. It was when I was at Spotify, they use testing for their hiring. And they were often taking candidates anything from half an hour to 45 minutes to do these tests. So there was a huge appetite for this information and there was clear value in it. Tom Sherwood: But the process itself was terrible, which was what we tried to solve initially, which was removing the need for self-assessment, which then evolved into what we're doing today. So we very much believe that talent isn't acquisition. It's not development. It's not management. It's actually that whole journey combined. So even though as of today, we are doing psychometrics for the current workplace. Our talent product is coming in the new year. And we very much see it from the first interaction that that individual has with a business, obviously the acquisition channel. And as they join a business into the talent development and into talent management. And we see that as a full journey that is potentially giving the best psychometrics. Chad: So all I've heard thus far is the real problem is time. Tom Sherwood: Yeah. Chad: Right? Because it takes so much time to complete this. So is that the only problem you're trying to solve for? You're using voice, which I thought is incredibly interesting. And we'll get into that. But do you think is time really the only thing that you're trying to solve for? Tom Sherwood: It's time, cost. Traditional assessments cost a lot of money. Chad: So you're cheaper. Tom Sherwood: Whereas ours are cheaper. And what that leads to is the democratization of access. So whereas previously, if you were to go and do a Hogan assessment or a Myers-Briggs or any kind of assessment such as that, you would go and spend a lot of time, spend a lot of money. And because it was expensive. L&D budgets or coaching budgets were often kept for managers and leaders. And we understood that the value of psychometrics is across the whole organization. If anything, the more junior members of staff, the intern, the graduates have a huge appetite for learning. Whereas if you're a C-suite and you've been doing it for 35 years, you kind of know yourself already. So actually the value in democratizing the information all the way down to the newest members of staff was what we were trying to do. So by reducing the cost, a company can have the whole organization complete their psychometrics and empower everybody to understand themselves. So it is time, but it's also democratization of this information as well. Joel: Well, time is money, Tom. And you guys recently raised about $550K in pre-seed money. You guys are not even out of diapers yet. You launched the company very recently from what I understand. What are you going to do with the pre-seed money? When is the seed round coming? And what are you kind of looking for? What's the growth plan in this? Talk about the money. Tom Sherwood: Yeah, I mean, cash is king, right? I suppose from a fundraising perspective, this round that we've just done has been very much focusing on taking our MVP to market. So we've released our beta. We're working with a couple of customers at the moment about rolling that out, developing Phoebe. Yeah, Phoebe was the first version that came out yesterday. So kind of getting that to market and essentially learning the sales journey, but also the utilization of the product within a business. So as we start to learn from our customers about how they're deploying it, we can then have a product-led growth as we go into kind of formal launch next year with the talent product, with the ambition to raise seed in Q1 next year. Joel: Okay. Walk me through the product. By the way, you said beta, which is beta for our American listeners. [laughter] Joel: Just so you know. Walk me through the product for Phoebe for example, if I'm the candidate, am I speaking through the microphone in my computer? Am I talking to Phoebe? Is she talking back to me? And then you're analyzing my voice. Walk me through how the product works from a candidate's perspective. Tom Sherwood: Of course. So essentially what will happen is so what I'll use the example of the current workforce because they're the people who are using it. So an employee will get invited to the platform. They'll receive an email from their head of people or their line manager. They go onto the platform and they log in, they create an account to put their details in and then they give it a prompt. So you can either record directly into the product. So, or you click through and you can record into it. And we need anything from 90 seconds of speech. We give a couple of prompts about what to talk about, just to give some people some direction. And/or if you want to upload something that you've prerecorded. So whether you want do it in a meeting room or you want do it on your walk home from work, you can then upload an audio file or for accessibility reasons. Tom Sherwood: So for example, if someone has to speech impediment or they're not comfortable doing speech, we also offer self-assessment as well. If they'd like to, but obviously self-assessment takes 10, 15 minutes. When they go on it, they then click through in the recording, they speak for two minutes. We ask them to speak about their career, what they like to do, what their ambitions are. We then take that data file and we run it through our AI. We then also extract the transcript from what they've spoken about and provide a personality report, which then personalized based on what they spoke about as well. So whereas previously most reports would be, you're an introvert or an extrovert, and here's your file. What we do is we actually take what the person has spoken about and we'll reference that in their report. So for example, if it comes back that I'm highly agreeable, it'll reference something that I spoke about as to why that's an indicator of me being highly agreeable. Joel: So it's not a skills assessment, it's more of a culture or behavior or demeanor assessment. You're not telling me I'm good at programming. You're telling me that I'm a nice guy who gets along with people and is highly motivated. For example. I'm simple... Tom Sherwood: Yeah. Joel: I'm simplifying I'm sure. But that's what we're looking to do, correct? Chad: Yeah. It's psychology. We use the big five psychology model, which is, openness, conscientiousness, agreeableness, extraversion, and neuroticism. So most people would've heard of Myers-Briggs. But, which is the MBTI, the 16 personality types, that the majority of companies have probably have heard of. But the big five is the more robust psychology model that's been the preferred method for psychologists since the 1990s. Joel: Yeah. Are those your competitors? And what does a typical client sort of look like? Or what do you hope a typical client would look like? Tom Sherwood: A typical client is an organization that's looking to invest in their people. Obviously, there's a lot of questions, a lot of conversations happening in boardrooms around how can organizations get more out the current people they have? So part of the way that our insights are delivered is all about enabling people to perform better. So it's not a selection tool. It's not to be used to say, this is a red flag, or this is a bad thing. It's this is their personality. This is how you get the best out of them. So it's enabling everybody to understand themselves and others to improve performance and collaboration, because ultimately within a business one of the or a key people strategy is turning relationships into productivity. Chad: So explain voice acoustic makeup. Tom Sherwood: Yeah. Chad: And what does that actually do, and what does that do for the test? Tom Sherwood: Yep. The way the model works is when you speak, it's kind of broken into two main areas. You have the transcripts of what you're saying and then how you're saying it. I'm sure everyone's heard the, what their parents used to say growing up. It's not what you say, it's how you say it. It is actually scientifically true. So we break that down. We break that down into two parts. The transcript is cut off, so we can personalize the report, but then we analyze actually how you're saying it. So that's then broken down into two parts as well. So you have the acoustic side, so the volume, the rhythm, the tone, the key that you're talking, and then also the linguistic makeup of the sentence. So the ums, the uhs, the adjectives that you're using is a real key indicator. And there's about 2000 data points that our models are analyzing, and then it produces a prediction of the big five based on that. Chad: So how do you not see that as a bias method of perspectively trying to classify somebody? Just because I have a different cadence than somebody else does, doesn't mean that we're not the same kinda mindset. So how do you not, especially from females who might be more high pitched, versus like a Joel who seems a little bit more calm. Joel: Damn sexy. [laughter] Chad: But could have a crazy streak. So talk about that. It seems like we're actually injecting bias into the process. Tom Sherwood: So I'd actually counter that and say it's completely opposite. So the way that we've trained the model is, we've actually done it via academic research. We've gone out and actually paid every respondent, over and above their minimum wage of their country respectively. So it's been trained on anybody who speaks English worldwide, that's not English language from London, that is anybody who speaks English as a first, second, third, or fourth language. They then complete the traditional assessments, so we have their core base personality assessment as if they would've done a questionnaire, they then send us an audio file, which is between, five and 10 minutes long of them talking about themselves. And then Martin, our chief data scientist, who's an absolute genius has built the model to be able to map out the complete structure of the audio of their voice and then their assessment. And that's how we picked up the trends. So with thousands and thousands of hours of data, with these 2000 data points, plus there are key indicators of different personality traits displayed in your voice. Chad: So how would Stephen Hawking do in this test? Tom Sherwood: In that, it's just because he had a speech impediment, or lack of ability to speak. That's why we offer the self-assessment for accessibility reasons. Chad: He could still speak through his computer. So I mean for me, again, it seems fairly subjective from not to mention you're not just talking about human beings and how we speak. You're not just talking about languages. You're talking about somebody from the Midwest speaks entirely different than somebody from the East Coast, west Coast, or the South. So how do you discern between that? Because for me... Chad: Again, it seems like it's just injecting bias. And I'm not talking about worldwide or gender, I'm just talking about regions. Regions of, let's say just the United States. Tom Sherwood: Yeah. So when we collect the data, we also collect, the demographic data so we can analyze the performance of the model in that instance. So because we have people with different dialects, different accents to your point entirely, we can, we'll be self-testing the model constantly with this training data. So we'll see, for example, if somebody were, a certain demographic from the Midwest and the model was performing, below where it should be, we can then train more data in into that. And we're completely transparent about all of this ethical use because we know there'll be questions about diversity. So on our website, we actually share all of our data, how we do it, to that extent, to be fully transparent. Chad: So is this open source? Tom Sherwood: The model itself isn't, but how we've trained it is. So all of the data we've collected, the process that we've used, so yeah, we're fully transparent around that. Chad: Okay. So which is a available to anybody so that if they go through audits or anything like that, they can actually use your model. Okay. Tom Sherwood: Yeah. You can, as I said, you can go onto our website. We know there's gonna be, there are serious questions about the application of AI, within people strategy. And we're also working quite closely, with the British Psychology society as well as we've got attorneys in the US we're working with AI-EU regulation as well, because we wanna be so far ahead of this and be transparent from the word go, rather than people ask questions down the line around how have you done this? We're gonna be, we're on the front foot to show exactly how we've done it. Joel: Did you mention that text is a way that you can analyze someone? I know Chad said Hawking speaks through a computer, but there are people who just can't speak at all or will type. Is that an option? Tom Sherwood: Yeah, so you can do self-assessment. So you can actually do the old school version of answering the questions of are you the life and soul of the party? How do you feel in this situation? So the traditional method, we also offer that as an option if somebody isn't comfortable using voice. Joel: So I know that, Europe and the UK aren't as litigious in nature, but the US has a great reputation of suing everyone, for everything. [laughter] And this feels to me like a lawsuit just begging to happen, not waiting to happen, but begging to happen for candidate or for prospects in the sales process that come around and say like, this looks like it's just too dangerous in terms of getting me in trouble. Because at the end of the day, recruiter, employers, their job is to keep the company out of court. And this feels like a real minefield to me. Convince me otherwise. Tom Sherwood: So there's one key, really key indicators to this, and there's a law in New York, and also it's part of the EU regulation of the application of AI. Its AI cannot be used for selection purposes. So our model and our report quiet clearly don't give any indication of why you should or shouldn't hire somebody. All it does is show this is their personality and this is how you work with them. It isn't about this is a negative trait, this is a positive trait. It's about unlocking that person's potential. So we're super aware of that. And there is a lawsuit actually happening at the moment to do with a pharmaceutical company in the US that use psychometrics for selection using the old school method, and are currently being sued because an individual unfortunately committed suicide after being rejected for a job by using psychometrics. So we're aware of that and that's why we're about enabling decisions, decision makers to understand the individuals rather than to select them based on... Joel: What do you want to be when you grow up. In other words, is this an acquisition play? I guess I'm assuming the answer you're gonna gimme is like, "We're just trying to build the best product ever and how things roll out is how... " but is... Do you have an end game on this? Is this a feature? Is it a product? Are you on a three to five year track to get acquired? And if so, who do you think would be a good acquirer? You mentioned some big names, that are McKinsey, I think and some others that are doing this. Is that the play? Talk about the future, the roadmap. Tom Sherwood: The future is, I mean, big picture is to change the way that psychometrics is used across the whole industry. So, there are the big players such as your Hogan assessments, your Harvard, your Thomas & Co, which are huge. We wanna be the world leading platform for psychometrics and coaching. And if that means that we end up acquiring them, and so be it, and I think there's an opportunity for us to really change the way that this is used and really bring the whole industry of psychometrics into the modern world. Chad: So talk about your target market. Who is the perfect client for this product? Tom Sherwood: In theory, any company that has people in, we can work with. I know that's [laughter], that's a pretty... Joel: The world, Chad. Tom Sherwood: The world, yeah. We're gonna take over the world, at the moment it's, SMEs we're actually working. And we're having a lot of interest within the recruitment industry actually, of recruitment agencies who are trying to squeeze the best out of their current employees. So for managers who haven't managed before, it's enabling them to make better decisions and to coach their teams more effectively. So initially, as of today's SMEs, anything from 50 to 200 employees where they have small L & D budgets, and they can use this technology to empower their leaders to do better. And as we move into next year and we're able to train more languages, so we have demand from South America, we need to train it in Spanish and in Portuguese, obviously as we go into the enterprise world. And we'll start working with larger enterprises next year, hopefully. Chad: So SMEs that's a hard market to penetrate, so how are you going to penetrate that market? Tom Sherwood: So initially it's come through founder sales and we have some very strong relationships, myself, Alex, Martin, obviously through the portfolio of our VCs we're working with. We also got some very strong investors as well, who have angel investors both in the, in Europe and in US. But essentially it's about understanding that companies are quite budget restrained at the moment, and how can they get more out there people with less. And because our technology is cheaper, well, it's more cost effective than anything else out there. And it enables companies to actually perform better. That's part of our strategy is kind of tapping into that, to give them a better future. Chad: What about geography? You talked about, obviously training more languages, although right now, where's your main focus? What market geography are you trying to penetrate? Tom Sherwood: UK and US. I'm obviously here at the moment in New York, meeting with a number of customers this week because there's a big appetite over here. Joel: Chad, this sounds really fucking expensive. [laughter] Joel: Tom. Talk about the pricing of the product for us. Tom Sherwood: Pricing is gonna be changing this week. Actually. [laughter] We've taken some feedback. We're changing the pricing. We're gonna have a free tier which is individual use. As an individual you can do your own assessment you can see your report and that's and that's the limit of it. But then the premium product which the ability to create teams. You have your Phoebe assist, your assistant and will be £10 per employee per month. Joel: One last one from me is retention a selling point of this product? You've talked about saving time but I'm trying to get to like what kind of what pain are you solving for companies? Tom Sherwood: Yeah. I think retention is a very clear indicator of effective use of behavioral psychology in organization. Once we have the metrics we'll be able to start showing case studies around that. Joel: Okay. Okay. I got it. Oh man, that's the bell, Tom. Are we ready to face the firing squad? Tom Sherwood: I'll Just have a sip of coffee first, go on. [laughter] Joel: All right, Chad warm up while he sips his coffee and let him know what you think about Koios or Koios or Koios or whatever you called it. Chad: Well my first piece of advice would be to rebrand to culturelab.com. [chuckle] Chad: Two words that I can understand, that I can spell. It makes it much much easier. I love the fashion forward usage of tech. I mean voice acoustics makeup. I've never heard of that before. I thought that was incredibly cool. I also thought facial recognition was cool until HireVue got smacked with regulation from the state of Illinois right? Trying to solve problems. Time is is definitely a a big problem because you're you are talking about being able to get those in individuals to take the test. And if they're taking 45 minutes to take a test it's just not gonna happen. In many cases you're gonna have high ejection rate right? But cost, today with what you guys are doing most of those companies it's gonna be a race to the bottom if you start talking about cost right? Chad: Because everybody can scale, it's tech right? It's not paper and pencil anymore. It's tech. So I think the there are more problems that you guys need to dig into to really start to create that business case. Because testing is an incredibly lucrative space but it is also which you already know, probably one of the most competitive because it is so lucrative. So at the end of the day I love that you're looking at the fashion forward stuff. The thing is you are going at a very very high rate of speed. You might want to dig in while you're in New York and have some conversations with some EEOC people. They can give you some possible education. But until then my friend I still feel like this is a HireVue facial recognition situation. We're so early into the tech, not just, not actual tech itself but for us from an adoption standpoint and it's all about adoption because if you can't sell it, obviously it's not gonna get adopted. So until then you guys are still early, you're in diapers. But until you can get a little bit more than just time and cost, I'm gonna have to go with the firing squad my... Joel: Ouch. Ouch. All right Tom my turn. Tom you're a sports fan. Do you like baseball, cricket? Tom Sherwood: More of a cricket fan. [laughter] Joel: Or is it rounders in the UK? Is it rounders? Is that... Chad: Cricket. It's Cricket. Joel: Cricket's. Not baseball. Give me a fucking break. All right. So. Chad: It's pretty much, it's pretty much the equivalent. Joel: Quick lesson in baseball Tom. You go to bat and you get three strikes meaning you swing the bat and you miss the ball. At strike three you're out and you gotta go to the dugout, right? And you get three strikes in an inning. I won't go into all that. So I'm gonna give you three strikes about this company that to me says you got your work cut out for you. Number one, your first strike is the name. We've already been over that, we've beat that dead horse. I'm not gonna say anymore about it. You can change the name. So that's the good news. And you're so early in this journey that you can sort of fix that, hopefully acquire koios.ai and remedy some of this. Strike number two, this thing is hard to understand man. I don't wanna say snake oil but voice to know person's personality. Joel: And I know there's science behind it, like to get my head around this and I'm not the smartest cat in the room, but it's sort of challenging for me to get get my head around how my voice and how I speak can give you data on who I am as a person. That's a little hard for me to grasp. I also don't know what pain really you're solving. Look recruiting budgets are getting slashed, recruiters themselves are getting cut. Everything's getting automated which may be something that you can look into if you automate this whole process in interviewing and what a person's like, maybe that's an angle for you to pursue with the business, but it's not like a skills assessment where it's really cut and dry. You're we're hiring people based on skills. This is a personality trait thing. Joel: So strike two for me is sort of difficult to understand what exactly pain, what pain are you solving or resolving for me? And number three, Chad touched on it, the diversity, inclusivity issue. Whether you eloquently in a British accent told me why that's not an issue. But I'm telling you people are gonna be scared shitless to use a product like this just because of the fear. People are gonna be so scared of getting sued to oblivion by this product that they're gonna just stay clear of it because the benefits aren't good enough for them to be like I'll risk going to court because I can do this. That's the bad news. Tom. The good news for you is you need to pivot this shit into being a dating app ASAP or make it into like a dating API where I can get an analysis on someone I might swipe right on based on hey they're a nice person. They're agreeable, they open the car door. Like what dating app. This screams dating app to me. You won't have the legal issues. Someone like Bumble or whoever can buy you. Otherwise, you can go sell it to authoritarian governments or maybe any government for that matter that they can analyze their employees on a really strict basis of their demeanor. But otherwise I don't think this works as an employment app, workforce app. And I gave you the three strikes. Why? So just like Chad... It's nothing personal. Pivot this thing to a dating app and you got gold baby. But as it is man, I just I can't give money. Chad: It's a bigger market, that's for sure. Joel: Yeah. Like it's not personal. 25 plus years each experience in this industry. Take it for what it's worth. But yeah, you've got two guns on you... Tom Sherwood: That's Good. Thank you. Yeah, it's good to hear your thoughts. Joel: I love how the Brits stay polite. Well, Tom we wish you the best of luck. We hope that you can come back on the show in three years and show us how successful you are, that you sold for $100 million and tell us to fuck off. But until then Tom for anyone out there listening who wants to know more about Koios give them that URL one more time. Tom Sherwood: Getkoios.ai, which is spelled G-E-T-K-O-I-O-S. A-I. Joel: He spelled get for us, Chad. That's a gentleman. Another one in the can, Chad. We out. Chad: We out. Outro: This has been the Firing Squad. Be sure to subscribe to the Chad and Cheese podcast so you don't miss an episode. And if you're a startup who wants to face the firing squad, contact the boys at chadcheese.com today. That's www.chadcheese.com.

Week Two of Chad & Cheese's back-to-back travels is a tour de force that finds the boys in Paris for Unleash - taking residency at the Textkernel booth - after a stint in Vegas for HR Tech. The recruiting news never sleeps, of course, so the boys are covering alerts out of LinkedIn, Stack Overflow, The Martec, Yardstik and Citibank this week. Additionally, there's an extensive list of shoutouts from their European adventures and a few special birthday announcements. Grab a baguette and a chunk o' fromage, Pierre! There's a podcast révolution goin' on up in here! PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's Most Dangerous Podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: Oh, yeah. Recording this week from UNLEASH in Paris with a residency at the Textkernel booth. You are listening to the Chad and Cheese Podcast, I'm your co-host, Joel, Joel Cheesman. Chad: And this is Chad, T-shirt and underwear, Sowash. Joel: And on this week's abbreviated episode, we're talking UNLEASH LinkedIn layoffs. Chad: Layoffs? Joel: And sandwich sacking and who'd you rather. Let's do this. We got McGrath. Chad: Oh, dude. [chuckle] Chad: That intro was so loud. Oh, that was so loud. Joel: Was it? Chad: Oh, so loud. My head hurts. Joel: Like bad recording or bad... Chad: No, like my head hurts. Joel: It's just loud. Okay. If you don't know, Stephen McGrath, our favorite Scott. [chuckle] SFX: Welcome to all things Scottish. Our slogan is, "If it's no Scottish, it's crap." Chad: We love you too, Adam. And Mike. Joel: So dinner last night, Adam... Yeah, Adam and Mike's dinner with Scots. So we go out with Stephen McGrath, who's celebrating a 33rd birthday today... Chad: At midnight last night. Yeah. Joel: So as we record this. Yes. Yes, at midnight last night. We're in the final place to get drinks, both our wives are 80 sheets to the wind... Chad: Toasted. Joel: At this point. Chad: Toasted. Joel: Totally toasted. And I say, "Just get me a Jack and Coke." Jack's easy to drink, 80%... Like it's easy. It's like the Bud Light of whiskeys. [laughter] Joel: I come back, I'm drinking this thing, dude bought me a triple shot Jack and Coke. That's what we're dealing with here in Paris. Thanks, Stephen. Thanks, Stephen. Chad: Oh, dude. Yeah. No, Julie was... She was out after all the wine. Her and Christine obviously were out drinking earlier while we were working, and then they just carried along. And yeah no. So, yeah, we got McGrath. Joel: I'm fine. Chad: Yeah, Julie's like... Joel: I'm fine, let's go. Chad: He's an enabler. I'm like, yeah, yeah, go ahead blame McGrath... Blame Stephen. Joel: He's just Scottish. He's not an enabler. He's just Scottish. Chad: That's who he is. That's who he is man. Joel: Happy birthday though to him. We obviously love him. Chad: Yes. Yes. SFX: Shout out. Joel: All right, so let's get to it. We got a short show. We got to get back to UNLEASH and all the things that we have. So first shout out... Or just show some love, Textkernel, we were in Textkernel 's booth yesterday, got some great interviews that will be dropping in the coming weeks. But thanks to them, they were very hospitable. Love Gerard, their CEO, he's always great. So first shout out definitely to them. Chad: Yes. Joel: Second one for me, Talking Job. The startups here are great and they have a competition, which I think your daughter... Chad: Yeah. Joel: Helps set up. Chad: She actually runs it. Yeah. Joel: Yeah, runs that thing. So Talking Job, if you don't know... I'm not sure where they're out of, but their basic premise is that you apply through voice and it transcribes everything, as opposed to messaging or texting which is paradox... Chad: Yeah. It's sexy. It's sexy. Joel: Someone would do. Yeah, like the kids like talking, they like talking, Siri, Alexa, whatever. We've been talking about voice for a while. So these guys won, so congrats to them. I've already mentioned Adam Gordon, Stephen McGrath. Thanks for a great dinner and a good time last night. And also, hi, Bob, had a party, rooftop party here that was really crowded... Chad: It was. It was. Joel: And really popular. So shout out to them. By the way, headquartered in Israel. I checked with them and they said all of their employees were safe and sound, so that's good. Chad: Excellent. Joel: Good. Good to hear that from them as well. What do you got? Chad: So a shout out to all the fans out there and the people that we see at shows that we don't get a chance to hang out with. I mean, we get texts all night, that type of thing. We can only be in so many places at once. It happened last week in Vegas. It's going to happen wherever we go. But we... Amazing time. And again, the rooftop, we got to see a bunch of people hang out for a little bit. But again, if we didn't get to hang out with you here, hopefully maybe the next place we might be able to hang with you. So shout out to all of our fans and our friends who got the Chad and Cheese shaft last night. Joel: Yeah. Yeah. And as an abbreviated show, we're not gonna do travel, we're not gonna do like fantasy football from our friends at Factory Fix. But you will be in London in December, which is our final end of year travel. So the only chance you get to see us this year is Chad in London at TAtech. Chad: Early December. Joel: How great is France? Chad: France is amazing. Joel: Probably like your whole life you've heard, French are rude. Chad: Oh, no. Joel: They hate Americans. Like they're just miserable people. Chad: No. Joel: They're just... They're great. France is so great. Everything about... Even the shitty parts of France are pretty good in my book. And by the way, I was introduced to French coffee, similar to Irish coffee, but instead of a Jameson, you throw in some cognac. Chad: Nice. Joel: So if you haven't tried a French coffee, please do so. And it really helps if you have the French whipped cream on top, the homemade stuff, which is really nice. Chad: And a little biscotti on top. One of those, yeah. Joel: Yes. Yes. Little dessert all day doesn't hurt. You can do that in France. Chad: And talking about that, we're not doing birthdays, but I do have to give a shout out to my... Our middle kid, Emma, who turned 22 last week. 22. Jesus. And my niece who actually got married. So congratulations, Hayley and Chris, which I had to do between Vegas, wedding, France. So, yeah, it's been a hell of a couple of week and a half. Joel: How's does it feel to have a 22-year-old daughter? Is it surreal? Chad: It so feels like a 12-year-old up here. So, yes, it is very surreal. Joel: So I'm sure like you and most people listening, Facebook throws out your memories. Chad: Yeah. Joel: And obviously, every day I get memories of Stella and my kids, and it's just... It's so surreal. Chad: It is. Joel: When they were young, and where they are now. Like, I can't imagine 22. And you probably look back when... She's probably still a 12-year-old girl. Chad: Yeah. Joel: At least I know Stella is to me, so anyway. Chad: Watching Kennedy run shit at UNLEASH is just like you were in high school yesterday dude. Joel: Dude, she's a girl boss. She's in control. [laughter] like, I love it. I love it. Quick rant 'cause we were talking about HR Tech. Chad: Yeah. Joel: And we'll get to UNLEASH takeaways here in a second. But I just have to point out Phenom. Who a company that a lot of people know, a lot of people probably use. They're pretty good at the fake advertising. [laughter] We talk about fake news. They posted on LinkedIn, the sphere. Which we got to see you too. We talked about most people have seen this thing on social media and online, but anyway, they took their logo and like put it on the sphere and made it move as if it was real. By all accounts, that was not a real ad. They didn't pay the $650,000 to have an ad on the sphere. And if they did, if that was their ad, they wasted their money. So anyway. Joel: That was shitty. Yeah. Joel: Total fake, total BS, if anybody fell for them advertising on the sphere, like you've been fooled. And you shouldn't do that shit. [laughter] I mean, if it was an obvious, like, Hey, haha, we're here, but they kind of made it look like we really are on the sphere. We're here at HR Tech. So anyway. Chad: And somebody in marketing thought they were geniuses though. I guarantee you. Joel: Who, yeah. Who Green-lighted that shit. [laughter] I dunno. [laughter] Yes. Let's fake, by the way, they also have like 60,000 LinkedIn followers as a employment software solution. A little bit unrealistic. I don't know. Maybe. Chad: Right? That's a lot of people. Joel: I'm not, allegations, allegations. Go see who's following them and see if they look real. That's all I'm saying. That's all I'm saying. Chad: That's all I got, it's all I got. Joel: All right. You ready for some UNLEASH takeaways? I wanna know what you think so far of the show? Chad: Yeah. Other than all the shots and rooftop parties. SFX: All right. All right. All right. Chad: Talked to Elliot. Even before we talked to the staff at UNLEASH, we noticed that there was something much different this week than there was last week. HR Tech was... HR tech is, as I said last week, HR Tech is HR tech kind of is like same as it ever was. Not for, not here at UNLEASH. The enthusiasm and excitement that we saw here was amazing. And you saw it as soon as you walked in the hall. I mean, people were early. It was just, it was amazing. Now, later we found out that they had record numbers, right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: So even though you little pussy Americans who stayed home because of the "bedbug" infestation, many who I talked to at HR Tech said, no, I'm not going to pairs because of that. Well, guess what? You missed out. And they had record numbers. It was amazing. It really was, it felt like a, it might just be me, but it felt like a new level of excitement for UNLEASH. We've been to UNLEASH before. We enjoy UNLEASH. We love the way that it's set up. You've got stages, integrated in with the expo hall. It's all like togetherness in, some form or fashion around community. But in this case, it just seemed like it was heightened tremendously. I don't know why. But it just did. Joel: Yeah. I think part of that is with COVID, COVID was over for America probably a little bit before it was Europe. So there's a little bit more pent up energy or demand to just get the hell outta the house. Obviously coming to Paris in fall isn't a bad thing. Look, there are two conferences that I look forward to every year. It's RecFest in London and it's UNLEASH in Paris. Part of it's location. Part of it is just the energy, the uniqueness of the show. I'm over the whole like, go away for an hour, sit through a PAR PowerPoint, come back for coffee, talk to a few vendors, go back out from the expo hall. Come in for a drink, like that. It's just so played RecFest. Totally throws that on its ear. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: But UNLEASH, like you mentioned, it's all together. The energy is there, there seems to be a mentality around Americans that we know it all. We know all the companies. [laughter] We know everything, there's a curiosity and an engagement with Europeans. That's almost a humility of I'm here to learn. I know that I don't know everything. There are Americans here, there are Brits here. There are so many different viewpoints. But I'm here to learn and ask good questions. Americans don't have that mentality. Maybe it's just 'cause it's America, but it's so refreshing to come here and have that engagement that I think is hard to find in America. Chad: Yeah. And it feels like we're just all business all the time too. Which is, it sucks and it's flat and it's stale. Right? We're here. It's not just all business all the time. And don't get me wrong, we see people, at the HR techs or whatever shows we go to in the US and, we have a good time. Okay. There's no question there. But when we're talking about business, it just seems like everybody, just wants to get down to business. Joel: Yep. Chad: Here, it's not that way. It's more about the relationship before it is the business. And that might actually have something to do. One of the key ingredients to the excitement that we actually see here. And also at RecFest, because these two shows, these two shows, my favorite shows, they're both European shows who came to the US and they bring an excitement that the other shows just don't. Joel: Yeah. The competitiveness that's going to come with RecFest coming to America. UNLEASH in America. Apparently HR Tech's gonna come to Europe in a bigger way. Like, yeah, the competitiveness is gonna be turned up to 11. I guess that'll at least be interesting. I don't know if it's good for business, but it will at least be interesting. My fellow Americans, if you haven't been to either RecFest in London or UNLEASH in Paris, you're missing out. Skip HR Tech next year. [laughter] And come to Paris. [laughter] Chad: Topics. Chad: Oh, that hurts my head. [laughter] Joel: Editing that one's gonna be fun for you. Isn't it? Chad: Oh. Joel: Okay. Alright guys. We got some layoffs on Monday, LinkedIn who is not at UNLEASH and was not at HR Tech. Chad: Weird. Weird. Joel: By the way, said it was cutting 668 people. The third round of layoffs at the Microsoft owned unit this year. Meanwhile, developer form Stack Overflow said it would cut its staff by 28%, which according to the verge amounts to 100 jobs. Last year's cuts were more a response to macro economic conditions as big tech firms cut in response to a downturn in ads and corporate spending on enterprise software while startups had to cut costs when venture funding dried up. Today's cuts seem to be caused by a narrower set of factors more specific to individual companies. Chad, what are your thoughts on the news out of LinkedIn and Stack Overflow this week? Chad: So I thought LinkedIn was interesting because we're talking about roles across engineering, product talent in the finance team. So notice how they didn't mention sales or customer service, that's a good indicator to me. Why? It's very telling from the standpoint that you're owned by Microsoft, you can allow the mothership to absorb some of those duties. Now, I'm not 100% sure that's the case, but it just makes damn good sense. The one thing that's most interesting is the product team. Now, we talked about on this podcast for years about how LinkedIn's product isn't evolving at a rate that, you would think that a market leader would evolve at. Will this be a pivot to Microsoft product engineers? I don't know, but I'd like to start digging in further to see, I mean, because this could be a turning point for LinkedIn in a very, very good way. Chad: This is all just a supposition at this point because we don't know. But if you take a look at it and you think about it, being able to dig into the core of the mothership, there might be some opportunities here. But the good, the good thing just from a market standpoint is that again, when you see the cutting of sales and customer service, there's an issue going to Stack Overflow, there's an issue. Significantly reducing the size of the go-to market organization. That's a problem. The go-to market sales team, that's a problem. And we talked about when Stack added talent as a product and thought, that might actually make sense because of what they actually actually do. It could be somewhat fluid but I'm not sure that it is. I think that Stack, which is a communication and efficiencies tools for teams, right? For actual organizations. Talent probably doesn't need to resolve or at least be in that platform unless it's a separate team that knows how to sell it. Because the teams, the communications, the efficiencies, the dev stuff that they do, from Stack Overflow, that is a much different product. Chad: That's a much different story. That's a much different sales pitch than talent is. So I think maybe they're trying to open that tam a little bit too much. It did sound like it, it seemed like it made sense, but I think what we're seeing here is that it just didn't make sense for Stack, which is good for organizations like the hacker jobs, the hacker ranks and whatnot. SFX: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Joel: So, layoffs at LinkedIn probably is from a suffering of or weakness in recruiting. Its biggest revenue source remains recruiting fees and a lack of a strong growth in advertising is probably part of that layoff round as well. LinkedIn may also be shifting employees to a market where labor is cheaper. CNBC had a story recently about LinkedIn "Ramping up hiring in India" Chad: How's that make any sense? Joel: Little offshoring could be the case. Interestingly this news came a day after the Financial Times published a piece about how great LinkedIn was creating a, "New breed of influencers." So usage remains strong although popularity doesn't translate into revenue, unfortunately. Chad: Right. Right. It should. Joel: It should. Linkedin should be better at advertising and providing better recruiting tools. Chad: They need better products. Joel: And better products. Yes, for sure. And if they're more job seekers, they should be using LinkedIn as well and paying them for those services. Stack Overflow's move, maybe the strongest sign yet as to how chatGPT is going to fuck around with digital businesses for the foreseeable future. Stack Overflow cut 10% of staff in May after doubling its workforce to more than 500 people last year. The sugar rush that you like to talk about, now that was before ChatGPT was launched. I remember that. It was the information who reported in April that Stack Overflow was one of several software companies that they thought was a danger because of the rapid rise of generative AI. As tech companies start to file quarterly earnings throughout October, it's gonna be really clear as to how deep and the reasons why these layoffs are happening. For now, the cut to LinkedIn suggests at least some big tech firms are being more careful and being more disciplined around labor costs. But until we get some earnings reports, it's gonna be hard to say for sure. Chad: Yeah. Agreed. I don't know that the Stack Overflow thing, has much to do with generative AI yet. I don't think we're there. I think it will. I think it will, I think we'll actually see more of the coding as it gets smarter, because we're in co-pilot phase right now. And the co-pilot phase is really just teaching the algorithms to do what we're doing. It seems cool. It's like, oh, I've got a co-pilot to help me out, but we're really just teaching the algorithms to do what we do. I don't think we're there yet. So I think we will be having that conversation. I personally think, when you take a look at cutting a go to market sales team, there's a product problem. There's a product problem, and they need to at least kill a product that was being supported by that go-to market team and then focus, narrowly focus on what they're actually doing well at. And again, I think we both thought that talent was gonna be good for Stack Overflow, but as you dig into it a little bit more, their product, their original product set, talent really doesn't fit within their original product set from a sales standpoint. So I think that's what's happening, but I think we will see the impact of generative AI down the road. Joel: Yeah. And GitHub, who is owned by Microsoft/LinkedIn hasn't had these kind of cuts either, so that's interesting. By the way, ICEMS launching a co-pilot this week at UNLEASH. Barely missed the cut for us to talk about, but I'm sure we'll be talking about co-pilots. Chad: On their high resolution screens [laughter] in the booth. [laughter] Dude, it was like, okay, so it was funny and we love ICEMS. Okay, but we gotta give them some shit. [laughter] They have these big ass screens. Big screens, right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: It's like, and they're showing the co-pilot and they're on these grainy ass, almost 1970s... Joel: Yes. Chad: Resolution. It was, oh my God. And we said something to some of the staff and they're, oh my God, I can't stop looking at it now. Joel: Yeah. I didn't notice it until you said something, but now I can't unsee it. Yeah. I was looking for the knob from the old... Chad: Yeah. Joel: '80s, '70s... Chad: Yeah. Oh God. Joel: Televisions. Chad: That was so fucking hilarious. You have the rabbit ears, it's like, oh, wait a minute. We can get this in here. Joel: Someone get the aluminum to clear up the picture a little bit on this thing. Oh, geez. All right. When we come back a little who'd you rather. Alright, Chad, let's play a little who'd you rather. Chad: Okay. Joel: I'm gonna talk about two startups that have recently gotten funding, and you and I will pick who we'd rather. Are you ready to play? Chad: Let's do it. Joel: Who'd you rather. In this corner we have the MarTech Sydney based. The MarTech has raised eight million in funding. The company employs AI to enhance personalized talent marketing. They count companies like Marriott, Vodafone, and Adobe as clients, leveraging employee advocates to create videos and stories promoting working for the companies, and then distributing them across various platforms for recruitment campaigns. They have offices in the US, the UK, and Australia. And in this corner, Minneapolis based Yardstik has secured an additional 12 million in funding. This brings their total to $24 million. The funds will be used to expand operations, broaden their business reach and enhance development efforts. Yardstik provides trust and safety tools and expertise for high volume hiring businesses to safely screen, verify and onboard workers at scale, particularly in the gig economy. They employ 42 people while the MarTech employs 29 people. So, Chad, Yardstik and the MarTech. Who'd you rather? Chad: I think they're both good names. The MarTech. MarTech, everybody knows marketing technology, but being the Chad of the Chad and Cheese podcast, I like the MarTech. Joel: Yep. Chad: Launching this year. That's what the article said. CrunchBase has a 2015 date is when they found it. And the CEO on his LinkedIn has 2018, so I have no clue when this thing actually started. Joel: They're Australian. They probably don't know either. Chad: Yeah. That's a good point. But I'm going with the momentum on this one. If you take a look at the MarTech, it's $8 million for an Aussie recruitment marketing company. Joel: Yep. Chad: That's a lot of money. Joel: Yep. Chad: For an Australian company. And especially in this space or this time right now, the MarTech signed, as you'd said, Sainsbury's, Marriott, Vodafone, Adobe. They've got some pretty big names that they have on already. Plus the, it seems like the CEO Raj has been in the marketing space since 2007. On the other hand, the Yardstik number one, I'm not a background check guy. That's your area. Number two, job seekers paying for their own background checks, you can just fuck off. Okay. I'd rather the MarTech all day. Joel: Oh, the MarTech. SFX: Aai, Papi. [laughter] Joel: Good one. Chad. Alright. So two very distinct businesses on this who'd you rather. Yardstik is trying to compete in the boring, settled, established market, known as background checks which has its Coke, its Pepsi, and its Fanta with the likes of Sterling and Checker. I hate the background check business, low margins with any margins. It's a race to the bottom. And I hate startups who think they can put a dent in this crusty old grandfather of an industry. Now, the MarTech, I'm not so big on the name, the, like the Facebook, they were smart enough to take the out of the Facebook. Chad: Give 'em Time. Give 'em. Give 'em time. Joel: If they could have just named it MarTech or something, that would've been better. But aside from the name, the MarTech is diving into a growing segment that doesn't really have a clear platform of choice. Talent marketing is a growing niche that companies have a growing interest in. How do we leverage TikTok? How do we leverage reels? We get it all the time. We come to these conferences and when we talk to people, I look at the MarTech almost as a do it yourself agency, a ad agency solution where you can provide your own videos and posts and they leverage job description marketing. It's sort of like a hoot suite for recruitment marketers. I think if you're a shaker or an agency, look at these guys really strongly and see is there stuff we can take from this and give to our clients 'cause I think what they're doing is really, really solid. There's also a ton of room to grow for the MarTech, whereas the Yardstik is gonna be fighting for every yard. Get it Yardstik, see what I did there? Chad: I get it. Joel: Even in hangover mode I got dad jokes. So it... Chad: Every inch. Joel: Yeah. Every inch they're fighting for... There's a ton of room to grow for MarTech as a result. I would much rather the MarTech over Yardstik. And by the way Chad, Yardstik was my nickname in college. Just a side note on that. [laughter] Joel: We'll be right back. Alright, Chad. Chad: Yes. Joel: Are you ready for a sandwich sacking? Sacking is what the Brits call firing, by the way, in case our... Chad: Oh yes. Gotcha. Joel: American friends don't know. Alright. The bank... Chad: Sandwich sack. Joel: Yeah. A banking analyst from Britain who was terminated from his job at Citibank for expensing two sandwiches and other items on a work trip to Amsterdam, has lost his legal battle for unfair dismissal. He claimed that he consumed the items himself while the bank suspected he bought them for his partner, launching an investigation while arguing that the expenses were within the bank's daily limit. The judge ruled in favor of the employer stating that the issue was about the employee's failure to provide a full and frank disclosure rather than the amount of money involved. The judge emphasized Citibank's commitment to honesty from its employees and considered the dismissal to be a reasonable response to the misrepresentation allegation. Chad, what's your take on the double sandwich dismissal? Chad: So he wasn't fired for buying a sandwich, he was... He was fired for lying is what they're saying, but still, I mean. Okay, we don't know the past of this guy. Okay, he could be a liar. And this is just a long stream of a paper trail of why they got rid of him, but because I can't think of something that's under $100 for a bank to actually get rich, banks are swimming in money, literally, they're swimming in money, so I don't know why this would be a problem other than they just wanted to get rid of a problem player, a problem child in the organization. That's all I can figure out here, but I think it's... To be able to get, in having Citibank's name tied to a sandwich sacking, that's not great for optics no matter what, whether you think the guy was a liar or not a liar. It doesn't matter. Joel: Are you saying Citibank should have better things to do than launching an investigation on sandwiches? SFX: 60% of the time, it works every time. Joel: Okay. First of all, let's not shame people for eating two sandwiches at a time that's just not cool and not that unusual, by the way, secondly, Citibank probably wanted this dude gone, if he was crushing it, they wouldn't care if he was ordering flaming yon and lobster for breakfast, lunch and dinner, let's be honest. Laying people off in Europe is usually tougher than the US, so this must have been the easiest route for Citibank to cut this guy loose, to blame it on the sandwich debacle and lying. Third, at face value, this is a lesson for all the kids out there, you can build a lifetime of trust only to have it all taken away because of one discretion, in this case, it was kind of a funny discretion, but nevertheless still a lie, if that little voice inside your head is saying, don't do it, it's usually a good policy to listen to that internal voice, and by the way, Chad, my inner voice is saying right now, why the hell are we recording a podcast. We're in Paris for God's sakes. Viva la France, we out. Outro: Wow, look at you, you made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back, valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell and enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey, or just watch Big Booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckle heads instead. Now, go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap, because you'll be back like an awful train wreck, you can't look away and like Chad's favorite western, you can't quit them either. We out.

It's Halloween time again, and as usual, this episode is full of tricks and treats from the world of work. We're talkin' layoffs at Bullhorn and Nomad Health, Radancy acquiring Brazen, Employment Hero claiming unicorn status and more. What's more, you ask? How about Amazon introducing human-like robots into its warehouses and Cruise driverless cars getting pinched by the government regulators. The biggest trick of all probably goes to all the Return-to-Office mandates dropping on the heads of unsuspecting workers, like moms and the disabled. Of course, we end on a treat, talkin' about adult film star Riley Reid's new AI girlfriend app, that promises to be as naughty as you want her to be ... virtually, of course. Carve a pumpkin, grab a glass of witch's brew and enjoy this week's episode of HR's most dangerous podcast. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. Joel: It's the Halloween episode of the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. [music] Joel: Oh, yeah. Two guys who will never be Speaker of the House. What's up kids? You are listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Gag Odour Violation Cheeseman. Chad: And this is Chad Kingmaker Sowash. Joel: And on this episode, we're talking Radancy acquisition, employment heroes, and intimate conversations. Let's do this. Chad: You cannot leave. [laughter] Joel: Yoh! Chad is back. Chad: I am back. I'm back in full force. Oh, it's glorious. It is glorious. Joel: Your costume this year, Euro Chad. That's what I'm going at for Halloween this year. [laughter] And every day until next year. [laughter] It's good to have Euro Chad back. Chad: It's good to be back. Joel: So I gotta throw something at you before we start. You probably didn't catch this, but this is blowing up with the socials. There's a new survey asking women where they do not want to be taken on a first date? Chad: Okay. Joel: And a lot of guys are chiming in and giving opinion on this. Have you seen this list? Chad: I have not. Joel: Okay. Chad: But why are guys chiming in? I don't understand. [laughter] Joel: So this is great. So this is a list of where women say, do not take us on a first date. Your ready? Chad: Okay. Joel: Yeah. Cheesecake Factory. Chad: Okay. Joel: Applebee's, Chili's, Chipotle. Come on now. Olive Garden, the movies, your house, any fast food chain, Buffalo Wild Wings, Wingstop, Red Lobster, any buffet. I guess that includes Vegas, IHOP, Denny's, the gym. Why would you go to a gym on a first date? Church, Starbucks, coffee dates, ice cream dates, family functions, movie nights I.e. Netflix and chill. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Somewhere that requires a long drive, bowling nightclubs, hookah bar, a bar for just drinks, Waffle House or sporting events. So where the hell else can you go? Like, coffee's out, sporting events, Starbucks, come on. Chad: Yeah. Well, I mean, this is why you don't look at surveys 'cause they're fucking stupid. [laughter] Chad: Ask her where she wants to go. Obviously, don't take her to a fucking franchise. I mean, gimme a break. And, Applebee's, are you kidding me? Joel: Yeah. Chad: Come on. Joel: I love the gym. Is that a thing? Let's go to the gym. Chad: Apparently. Fuck, I don't know. Joel: Apparently it's a thing. Chad: I haven't been on a date in a very long time. Joel: Yeah, yeah. I know. I know. Alright. Let's... SFX: Shout out. Joel: Let's get to some shout out. Shall we? Chad: Hit it. Joel: Alright, we talked about the MarTech. We did a who would you rather... Chad: Yeah. Joel: Some people chimed in positively and negatively. But I wanted to point out that the MarTech is doing marketing right. We talk a lot about companies. We're generally as complimentary as we are critical about companies. Chad: Yeah. Joel: If the media says something good about you, run with it, put it on social. Make a meme, make charts, do a soundbite. Do of it... Do everything you can to get mileage outta this. And the nice things that we said about the MarTech, they ran with it. Like you too... They put a image together, put your quote on the image, put your face on it. Had a big... Big long comment about it. It was great. So we have a lot of companies listening. If we say something nice about you, go with it. Get it for as much as you possibly can. So, shout out to the MarTech and their marketing team for getting it right when we said something nice about them. Chad: Yeah and Yardstick the one who was not the one we would rather, the CEO commented on my LinkedIn and said, "Yardstick here, I won't dwell on the items you got wrong about us on the pod care to have us on the pod to clear up the details?". And I was like, of course. Come on to firing squad. I would love to see MarTech and Yardstick on their own firing squads because a who would you rather is like a... It's 2:00 AM at the bar. Okay? Joel: Yeah. Chad: It's... I mean, you're picking up scrap at that point. In some cases. In some cases. Joel: Yeah. Yardsticks should be careful what it asks for. [laughter] Chad: Well, my first shout out goes to childcare at work. I guess UPS is expanding their emergency daycare after a pilot program, helped it avoid 120, count them. 120 unplanned absences and reduce turnover in the pilot program from 31% to 4%. Holy shit. Joel: Wow. Yeah. Chad: So UPS will expand the program to additional shifts in the California pilot site in some Pennsylvania facilities this quarter. Everyone cheers UPS While Patagonia has provided onsite daycare for 40 fucking years, kids. Shout out to companies like UPS are finally waking the fuck up, while Patagonia continues to be an example of giving a shit about their employees for decades, not just when it's fashionable. So shout out to childcare at work. SFX: Alright. Alright. Alright. Joel: By the way, I'm still waiting for our free Patagonia swag to come in for all these nice things that we say about Patagonia [laughter] Well from one company to another that we talk about quite a bit. LinkedIn. Chad: Oh, okay. Joel: Had some big layoffs last week that we talked about. SFX: Layoffs? Joel: And they finally reported. So things aren't exactly as bad as they seem. LinkedIn's revenue for the fiscal first quarter ending on September 30th increased by 8% year over year in constant currency reaching $285 million. Growth was primarily driven by the talent solutions segment, while the results exceeded expectations. LinkedIn continued to experience negative year over year bookings due to a weak hiring environment in some key sectors I.e. Technology. For the upcoming second fiscal quarter, Microsoft expects LinkedIn's revenue growth to be in the mid-single digits with a focus on talent solutions and marketing solutions. So a little bit of best of both worlds, are to tail two cities on that one. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: People are hiring less, but LinkedIn's still making a boatload of money on their talent solutions. Shout out to LinkedIn. Chad: Shout out to another company, Dollar General. This is not really a shout out. This is a, what the actual fuck were they thinking moment, which goes out to Dollar General, who was fined by the EEOC for requiring applicants at its Bessemer, Alabama distribution center to share past and present medical conditions of family members such as cancer, diabetes, and heart disease all according to the 2017 EEOC Case. Dollar General also required applicants to pass a post-offer pre-employment medical exam that screened out qualified individuals with disabilities. Holy shit. The EEOC said in a statement, "Dollar General rescinded job offers to applicants whose blood pressure exceeded 160 over 100, or who had less than 20,50 vision in one eye. Even if those impairments did not prevent the applicant from safely performing the job". This is a... What the actual fuck were you thinking moment out to Dollar General. SFX: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. [laughter] Joel: All I wanna know is why Dollar General wanted to know about my penis enlargement surgery. That's all... SFX: Ai, Papi. Joel: That's all I was concerned about. Chad: And that was not the cash was about, wasn't it? Joel: Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Joel: And restocking. Anyway, well we talked about Patagonia, who will never send us free stuff, but we at Chad Cheese... Chad: I love free stuff. Joel: Are always sending free stuff to our listeners. We're talking rum with plum. If it's your birthday, we're talking free beer from our friends at Aspen Tech Labs. We're talking about a bourbon selection from you and me from our good friends at Textkernel. Great seeing them in Paris last week. Chad: Yeah. Joel: And of course t-shirts by our friends at JobGet. But you can't win if you don't play. Head out to chadcheese.com today, click that free link, put in your information and following that will be free stuff from Chad and Cheese. What time is it? Chad: What time is it? Joel: It might be, it might be time. It might be time 'cause we mentioned Plum. Chad: Ah... SFX: Can you feel the tension in the air right now? Joel: It might be time for birthdays. SFX: I know I can. I can feel it all the way down in my plum. Joel: That's right. That's right. We miss birthdays 'cause we're on the road. So let's do some catching up on some birthdays. Celebrating another year around the sun, our friend Dennis Tupper, who needs a little birthday love because his fantasy team isn't doing all that great. We'll get to that in a second. Ryan Moffitt, Garrett Friedman, Sean Horton, Cammy Owens, Jonathan Stelling, Jeremy Roberts, Heather Cochrane, Dr. John Sullivan, Stephen O'Donnell, one of our favorite Scots out there,'cause we love the Scots and last but not least, born on Halloween. That's right, our friend Punkage. Chad: Oh. Joel: Pankaj Jindal Co-founder at Sense celebrates his birthday on Halloween. So everybody that's out there... SFX: Happy birthday! Joel: This week. Happy, happy birthday to everyone. Chad: Happy birthday. Happy birthday. Well, it's time for events kids, which is brought to you by Shaker Recruitment Marketing. That's right. Wherever Chad and Cheese go, we take Shaker with us. Joel: That's right. SFX: Ai Papi! Chad: So coming early December fourth to the sixth TAtech Europe is gonna be happening in London. And I'm going to be there MCing with, Kirsty Kelly. So if you're in London, you're gonna be at TAtech. Can't wait to see you there. Not to mention we're probably gonna stay about a week or so. So, let's take a look at some dinners, maybe some podcasts. Let's get some content out while I'm in London and we're freezing our asses off together. Can't wait to see you there. Joel: Love the deep content. SFX: Just the tip. Joel: Alright well. [music] Joel: That's right, fantasy football update everybody. Fantasy Football with Chad and Cheese, brought to you by our friends at FactoryFix. Here's the leaderboard, heading into I think week eight of fantasy football. Number one still stands strong, that goes to Michelle Sergeant Slaughter. [laughter] Joel: Number two, Marcy Playground Mall, followed by Dean Kane Ossner, followed by Joe Biden Dixon. Chad: Wow! Joel: Number five Spot goes to Chad Lowe Sowash, number six Jasper Jim Stone Span Jart, number seven Jagged Little Jill Patterson, who I think kicked your ass this past week. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: Number eight, Brent Crude Low Cie, followed by Funky Cold Medina Perro, number 10 crisscross Kristin Urban. Number 11, Joel Embiid Cheeseman. And... Chad: Oh 11! Joel: And number 12 spot Dennis The Menace Tupper that is... Hey, if I have to go two and four for the Browns to be four and two, well I can swallow that. [laughter] Joel: That's not the worst thing in the world, Chad. Chad: All I have to do is say, Jill, you got lucky. Last week I was in Paris and I totally spaced my lineup and I had two, I think at least two that were on a bi-week. So yeah, she kicked my ass. That's not gonna happen again. [laughter] Joel: Yeah. I lost it by single digits again, I think six points because fucking TJ Hawkinson decided to have the best Monday night football game of his life. Oh, well anyway. [laughter] Chad: And topics. Joel: We're having fun no matter what at Fantasy football. So before we get to the news, Chad. Chad: Yes. SFX: Layoffs. Joel: That's right. We got some layoffs to talk about. Bullhorn has laid off 9% of its workforce. CEO and Founder Art Pappas announced on October 19th in a blog post citing the downturn in the staffing industry following the "explosive growth", observed coming out of the pandemic. Also with layoffs is Nomad Health a healthcare staffing startup, in case you missed it. They've cut 25%... Chad: Wow. Joel: Of its staff according to Business Insider. They have previously cut 17% of its workforce, that was back in February. Ouch. This was a former favorite startup of mine Chad. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Any comment on what's happening with layoffs at Bullhorn and Nomad Health? Chad: There's a couple of things I think in the tech space for staffing companies, we need more competition. I really think we need more competition to be able to push the market even harder. We have... You have Bullhorn and then you've got everybody else. So I think we need more competition there, really to push the market harder. Yes. The landscape itself isn't great from a staffing standpoint, but that doesn't matter. You should be automating, you should be building tech stacks and you should be bolstering your margins. So, I mean there's that Nomad Health side of the house. This one is really confusing because we have, at least here in the US, we have a great need for nursing. Right? We have a great need for healthcare. I mean it's amazing that an organization like this, unless they're literally just trying to rightsize because they became bloated, which I could... I can understand. I can't imagine there aren't great opportunities still out there for Nomad Health. So maybe this is more of a right sizing because they were bloated. But again, you know how I feel about that. If a CEO cuts that many people, they should cut the CEO. [laughter] Joel: Yeah. I mean, this is one of those businesses, it's like trucking, right? If you can't make this thing work, it's time to take your ball and go home. Chad: Yeah. Yeah. Joel: Particularly with the flexibility that they were giving travel nurses and other healthcare professionals who want more flexibility, who want more of a gig economy. I really thought Nomad Health was gonna, was just gonna crush it and be a model for their businesses coming through. This is not a good sign. I mean, laying off 25% and then 17% earlier this year of that, that's really, really bad. That's either like super shitty management or this business just doesn't work because they're baby boomers getting old every day and they're not getting any younger that need healthcare. So some of the others that came out that do this, we haven't heard layoffs from them yet. So, we should watch this carefully. Some of the other sort of gig economies or flexible work platforms for healthcare workers, like, let's keep our eye on those and see if this is a trend. Otherwise, Nomad Health, what the hell are you doing? Geez. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Geez. Gets... Chad: Again, utterly surprised that a CEO... I mean, 'cause this is, if you take a look at it, it no matter what, it falls on the CEO's head period. And if you were cutting 17, 25%, I mean, you gotta get new leadership in there. It's, not that we don't like the guy for god's sakes, it's just there's gotta be ramifications for shit like that, for mismanagement. Joel: Does not look good. Not look good at Nomad hell. Chad: No. Joel: Well, speaking of news, Chad, let's get to Radancy the artist formerly known as TMP. They've acquired Brazen the fine purveyor of recruiting event software. In case you missed it, the terms of the deal were not disclosed. This acquisition expands Radancy's cloud-based marketing and technology offerings by incorporating brazen tools for managing virtual and in-person events, creating microsite, enabling live chat and automating candidate communication. Brazen was founded back in 2007 and had previously raised $13.2 million over 10 funding rounds. In case you missed it Radancy also acquired CRM vendor as unify and candidate referral solution First Bird in the not so distant past. Chad, what are your thoughts on the move by Radancy? Chad: So virtual job fairs, hey, Radancy 2010 called and they want their tech stack back [laughter] It's, this is fucking ridiculous. Brazen founded as you'd said in 2007. Why buy a product that puts us all back into Zoom fatigue after COVID? I mean, it just doesn't make sense. So acquiring legacy tech, like Brazen isn't the move I would have expected Radancy to make. I would've expected a company like Radancy to be looking at startups like vet, Taddeo hiring branch to just name a few examples of technologies that we think are more future hiring process. I mean, it's not virtual job fairs. I mean, that's not the future screening, interviewing, proving that a candidate has the actual skills that their resume says that's the future. And we can do those things now. So. Joel: Yeah. Chad: It just... It blows my mind and it almost feels like Radancy has lost their swagger. And here's an example. Let's look at how Radancy is currently creating narratives around positioning themselves in the market. Number one, Radancy's new byline is from high to apply. Okay? So from high to apply, it doesn't scream end-to-end hiring platform. Joel: No. Chad: It screams top of funnel point solution, right? So that's one. And that's just basic. That's basic shit. It's like that's not you. That doesn't make any sense. Here's another one quote from the press release, "Decreasing cost to hire by 30%, reducing time to hire by 25%." So how do those numbers impact the actual business as I've said on this podcast almost every fucking week, the C-suite and the board doesn't give a shit about those numbers. If you're reducing time to hire by 20%, how much faster are those people getting into the seats? Chad: Right? What impact does that have on the bottom line? How much actual revenue does that represent? Cost per hire in time to hire are acute little statistics. But if you want to help your clients vie for more budget, that actually ends up in your pocket, you have to get to the numbers. The C-suite and the board actually give a shit about EBITDA, margins, sales retention, wallet share. If you can't tie those numbers to those big corporate board types of numbers, then get the fuck out of the boardroom man. Radancy should be a much more evolved platform at this point. It just... It really feels weird as we take a look at their marketing and then you take a look at the actual... This acquisition in itself, it just, it's mind boggling to me. I don't get it. Joel: That escalated quickly. I'm gonna blame this all on Appcast, Chad. [laughter] Joel: Appcast buys Bayard, agencies freak out. They've always had this question of buy, build or partner. They tried to build in the early days, including TMP/Radancy. They realized that they don't have the engineers to keep up with the products of actual companies that are building this stuff. Chad: Yeah. Joel: So building wasn't really a thing they could do. So partnering was great. Let's partner, like maybe white label some shit. It'll be fantastic. And then Appcast happens, they buy Bayard, they become AppcastOne, all the other agencies freak out and go, okay, if we can't build it where like, partnering is a huge risk now, we gotta like buy shit. Let's go buy some companies. And Brazen, let's be honest, was probably on the clearance rack at TJ Maxx. Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: Radancy walked in and bought it for 50% off or whatever. [laughter] Joel: This is gonna be a trend that we see, I think. Chad: At Marshalls. Joel: Yeah. You're gonna see agencies like, "who can we buy? Who can we take off the table?" We've seen ATSS kind of do this with Text Recruiting and buying Canvas... Chad: Right. Joel: So like this whole like partnering thing is in question. And I think agencies are a little bit scared and emotional right now and Radancy, to me is an example of that emotional decision making. We're gonna see more agencies buy companies, they're gonna put more companies in their portfolio and have a brand of house or house of brands. Chad: Yeah. Joel: And this is gonna be something that you see going forward. If you're looking to build a startup for kids, build something that an agency just bought, and then create a copycat of that company. And in 12 to 18 months, you will sell to another competing agency at Top Dollar. So if you're looking to start a company, make a new Brazen or something else because agencies are looking to buy and they might be coming for you if you create the right solution. Chad: Don't do that. Don't do that. TMP/Radancy, I mean, they bought a programmatic platform after StepStone bought Appcast, right? So they've been reacting each time. I don't think this has any reaction whatsoever. This is, again, this is Legacy Tech. Why do you even buy a virtual job fair platform in the first place? There are so many amazing point solutions that are out there today that are like cheats to being able to get qualified, proven individuals into your candidate slates. Joel: Yeah. Chad: What does this do? This slows down the process. "Oh, we've gotta wait. We're gonna have a job fair next week. Can you come to our job fair?" "No because I have a fucking job by then." This is so old school. It doesn't make any fucking sense. I don't get it, dude. I seriously don't get it. And I really believe that Radancy has lost their swagger. Joel: And by the way, we mentioned Centrify in Firstbird. Does Radancy have any track record of integrating these new tools effectively? I haven't seen it. Chad: Employee referrals. I mean, employee referrals. Joel: I mean, it's a thing. Chad: It's a thing but companies trip over more employee referrals. I mean it's an agency that's buying things that seems like 2010 when everything was really hot. But they're not... The newer tech that's out there today is about automation, it's about quickness, it's about targeting, it's about skills, and which this has nothing to do with at all. Joel: Chad, this news just came over the wire. Recruitics has bought a QR code company. [laughter] Joel: It's crazy how this is happening already, already so fast. Geez. Chad: That was a joke kids. That was a joke. [laughter] Joel: Let's get to our next story. That's right, baby. The unicorns. Unicorns are back and they're coming from down under this time. Australian tech startup Employment Hero has secured nearly 140 million pounds in funding, valuing the company at over 1 billion pounds. The funds will support its expansion in the UK where it provides software for small and medium sized businesses to manage payrolls, employee integration and recruitment. The company's choice of London, as its European base, is seen as a vote of confidence in the UK's tech sector and is aligned with the government's effort to attract foreign businesses. Thanks, Brexit. Chad, throw some shrimp on the Barbie. Pop open a fosters and give us your thoughts on this news. Chad: Got some, I mean, some pretty impressive numbers first and foremost. I mean, getting that kind of cash is... That's pretty impressive. Two weeks in a row. I think we've actually talked about tech companies down under who have gotten funding. So, good for Australia. Employment Hero says that they have 300,000 companies across Australia using their product. Not too shabby. And already 20,000 in the UK. Chad: PE firm. TCV actually had past investments with Airbnb ByteDance, and now they're getting into hiring and payroll. [laughter] I mean, it just doesn't seem to be as exciting at all anyway. Building tech for the SMB market is much easier than building for enterprise. SMB doesn't require a ton of customizations like Enterprise. So you can build a standardized platform and the SMB market will just be happy that they aren't using spreadsheets anymore. So the hardest part about this though, is that being able to actually target those SMBs and get major market penetration, top of mind types of marketing. So in the financial year of 2021, over 365,000 new businesses entered the Australian market, right? So there's tons, tons of small businesses. By the end of the financial year, they had 2.4 million in total small businesses. And in the UK they generate around 700,000 new businesses a year. Chad: So there's some great opportunity that's there. The hardest part though, and you can see this with the ZipRecruiter of the world and whatnot, when you can't spend money anymore to continue penetrating the market. We as humans have very short memories. But hopefully, that 140 million pounds will give them a little boost and they'll be able to get some market penetration in the UK, which I also like that focus too. Going to the UK instead of coming directly to the US. I think it's a much easier market to dig into. [music] Joel: Alright. So in an uncertain world of war, political upheaval, I could go on. Inflation rates, money's not free. It's good to see our space raise some big bucks here in the last few months. We talked about HiBob. Harry recently and now these guys, apparently the one platform to rule them all is still really popular. This company's on a tear. This company is like Crocodile Dundee and in a big old oil can of fosters in them, because they have a lot of testiness go to their site. It's a party, go to their employment brand stuff. I mean, it's like, it looks like a fun company. They're partying. They're looking for a good time. In the last two years, they've increased headcount, 93%. They're all remote. You talked about their customer base, right on their website, it's like 300,000 clients, can't be wrong. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Something like that. They make claims of being the first, the world's first employment super app. Whatever the fuck that means. [laughter] Joel: I mean, they are living it. They're vim and vigor. They're kicking ass. Like it's fun to watch. Very Australian in demeanor. Australia's like America's younger sibling, you know, south the border. I think we have a lot in common. SFX: Rebellious. Joel: The question I have, I also agree with the European Focus. I think they're gonna run into Personio and HiBob and some others. So that'll be interesting to watch. The question I have is, who the hell ever comes out of Australia and becomes a huge success? Like recent memory, we got Vervoe. Chad: Atlassian. Joel: Cipia, VideoMyJob, even Seek, can't get the hell out of Apac. So if they can do it, more power to them, and at least from the looks of it, they think they can. It's gonna be fun to watch. I want them to come to America because they're gonna have a good time in the US. But until then, I guess maybe we'll have to see them at RecFest. Chad: Yes. Joel: At Knebworth to have a good time. But employment Hero baby give it to me. I'm down. [music] Joel: We'll be right back. Alright, Chad, from the party in Australia, let's go to the Amazon. Well, Agility Robotics is collaborating with Amazon to test its bipedal robot Digit at Amazon Robotics Research facility in Seattle. Digit is designed for logistics and can handle items in warehouses while working alongside employees. Amazon will initially use Digit for tote recycling, aiming to improve workplace safety and reduce repetitive tasks. The robotics tailored for human-centric environments. And this partnership expands their collaboration with Agility, already part of the Amazon Industrial Innovation Fund. Digit's initial deployment is expected in 2025. Well, from Amazon to Cruise, the driverless car company, Chad, the California Department of Motor Vehicles suspended Cruise's autonomous driving permit, effectively halting its Robot Taxi service in San Francisco. Joel: The DMV said that Cruise's vehicles aren't safe for public operation, and the company has misrepresented information related to the safety of the technology of the vehicles. Cruise is majority controlled by General Motors. So, Chad, your thoughts Amazon, Cruise, is this a win or a loss for humankind? Chad: Well, I mean, if you think about it way back in the lost in Space days, right? The black and white were robot. Everybody loved robot, right? And I think as humans, we really want to see robots, right? It's the sci-fi that we've all grown up with. But then we start talking about possibly infusing those humanoid robots with Gen AI. And then you've got a movie on your hands, right? All you need is Will Smith as lead actor. We've all seen this movie before. We're getting into iRobot territory here. The pace of algorithms are developing and evolving at an amazing rate. Chad: The thing is, can the hardware keep up with it, on the robotic side of the house? If it can, I think we're gonna see some amazing innovation. But then also at the same time, can we start talking about universal basic income for God's sakes? I mean, this is gonna be a need for some people in parts of the country, as we've seen manufacturing taking over by robots, they're going to be much like Italy. You go into southern Italy, they have a poverty problem because the government hasn't focused on economic development in that area to bring them jobs. So what did they do? They had somewhat of a universal basic income. So anyway, we're gonna have to be talking about a lot of these issues from an economic and a societal standpoint because of these sexy ass robots. Joel: Yeah. If you're listening, you can't see what we're talking about. But I encourage everyone listening to go to Google and search Amazon robots in the company that they partner with. 'Cause these are, you're right, these are like science fiction Robot humans lifting boxes, doing what humans can do. But doing it with metal and AI. So scary, yes. Which is appropriate. SFX: You cannot leave. [laughter] Joel: Because it's Halloween. But this is the future. This is like when we went to the sphere and said, Oh, this is gonna be a thing. Chad: Yeah. Joel: These robots are gonna be a thing. And by the way, Amazon has apparently run out of people to employ. We've talked about that before, that they can't hire any more people. They can't, like... Chad: Shitty jobs. Joel: They can't produce... We can't clone people to go work at Amazon. So robots are the next best thing. They don't take time off. They don't need breaks. They don't go on strike. They don't pee in trash cans. [laughter] Joel: Like, it's a perfect scenario. And probably what Bezos and company have been wanting to do for many, many years, it's finally coming to fruition. You can't look at it and say like, that's the future. And humans are kinda screwed if this takes hold, which it probably will. The UBI thing is really interesting to me. There's been a lot of studies recently about like, if you give people a $1,000 what happens? Oh, they spend it, they put it right back in the economy. Chad: Yes. Joel: Which is a good thing. And they tend to buy things like, you know, pay for rent and food and things like that now. Chad: Yeah. 'Cause Robots aren't gonna buy shit. Joel: Robots aren't gonna buy shit. [laughter] Joel: And I think it's gonna be a hurdle because we've also seen where people take drugs when you give them free money. So I don't know what kind of guidelines or posts or safety things you put in, like to make people not get drugs. If you give them cash, like, do you have to spend it on food? I don't know. But that's something I think that's gonna happen. The Cruise thing to me is just stupid. From what I can tell, they're in trouble because like, somebody fell out of a car and then they hit the driver's car hit that person, or it wasn't like a normal, I'm walking across the street and I got hit. It seems like an extreme example. Chad: That was a hit and run. So an actual human hit somebody, it threw that person into the path of a Cruise Vehicle. Joel: Into the car. Yeah. Chad: And then the Cruise vehicle ran him over. So, I mean, again, it was humans fucking things up in the first place. And then secondly, the company just isn't transparent enough with the government. I mean, if you're doing something like this, it has to be highly, highly, highly transparent. Joel: Yep. So the fraud thing is bad, like that should not happen. But in terms of the technology, they're gonna go back to the drawing board. Every extreme case, they're gonna like, try to program into this thing. Cities like Phoenix will continue to have driverless cars. It'll continue to grow. So I don't look at this as any sort of major hiccup that this is over, this trend is over. Driverless cars are gonna be a thing. By the way, quick note, you probably heard the UAW settled with Ford. I think at the 25% increase. Chad: First domino. Joel: Yeah, in salaries. So good news for the Ford workers. I'm sure Stellantis and GM are soon to follow as well. Chad: Yep. Joel: Well, moving on from robots good, people bad. Let's go back to, let's go to some work from home. Return to office news. Stick with me here. This is a little bit lengthy, but some heartfelt messages that I think we should share. So the percentage of US households with remote workers has declined to less than 26% down from the peak of 37% in early 2021. That's according to the Census Bureau household pulse survey. This trend reflects employers efforts to bring employees back to the office. Driven by concerns about dwindling profits and economic uncertainty. The demand for remote jobs outpaces the number of companies offering them, of course. And some states are offering incentives to attract remote workers, such as Alabama's $10,000 incentive program. Joel: While many large cities have high remote work rates. Overall office attendance in major US cities remains at around 50% of pre-pandemic levels. Now, in RTO news, Carrie Breckenridge shared on LinkedIn how she had to resign from AWS, thanks to their return to office mandate, saying in her post, "The day my manager called to tell me, the RTO mandate finally made its way to our team. I silently cried on the other end of the phone. I knew I wouldn't be able to manage to keep my children's schedule and appointments, keep up with my productivity at work, keep taking care of my stakeholders and customers the way I had done for five years. And more importantly, I wouldn't be in the best mental state if I did commit to the return to office policy. Not for me, my children, my stakeholders, my customers, or my team." Chad, what are your thoughts on the state of WFH and RTO? Chad: Yeah, I mean there's some major unintended consequences for return to office. So I'm gonna take a different angle here real quick. We've seen the lowest unemployment rates for individuals with disabilities because of their ability to do their jobs remotely. So instead of thinking of the segments of people with disabilities as charity cases, they've more than proven they are vital, a very vital segment of the workforce. Only now to be told, unless you can come into the office, you're worthless to us. So just think of that for a minute. Companies pounding the diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging drum over and over, and then forcing people back into the office who can't work from the office. And then what about women? We just heard that story. What about women in the workforce? Many women pulled themselves out of the workforce because of the lack of childcare benefits when they go into the office. Chad: So, again, DEIB takes over and it takes another shot on the chin because old white dudes want everybody back in the office like it's 1930. I really believe if companies gave two shit about diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, they wouldn't be focusing on this. They'd be focusing on being able to embrace remote, hybrid onsite childcare. For me, this really hurts the workforce. And not to mention, the relationship that somebody has with their employee, right? I mean, like, she was just talking about working not just with at AWS but with their clients, and having those relationships, right? And then also being able to have those relationships with her kids, which is incredibly important. Those are things that companies just aren't taking into account. Not to mention, obviously being able to really kill the individuals with disabilities. And then working women who really just need autonomy. It's not a good look or I think a good strategy for most of companies that are out there. Joel: Alright, dude, work from home was over as far as I'm concerned. When Zoom, Zoom told people to get their ass back into the office. You remember Elon Musk talking about this being a moral question. In the meantime of all this, stock prices have gone down. The market's tanking. Shareholders are talking about get shit back up to speed, layoffs, get back in the office. This is just, this is what's happening. This is just the world that we live in. The old white guys in the ivory tower can't be happier than to have this happen and get people back in the office. It's obviously a shame. People that were benefiting from work from home, whether it was mothers who, let's be honest, have suffered probably more than anybody with the work or going back to work. People with disabilities, this is hugely awful for people that were having a great time coding or doing whatever they were doing, can't make it in the office. Can't... Just can't do it, right? Joel: Just working. It's an incredible shame. To me, hybrid is not remote. To me, hybrid is, I still gotta live near the office. I still gotta go in, I still have to find transportation. So hybrid to me is not like a nice middleman. To me, it's either you're pregnant or you're not. You're either remote or you're not. And I think hybrid is just Latin for, we'll eventually have you back for five days a week in the office. So for me, this is a huge bummer. Chad: It literally makes no sense. Joel: But someone else happy about the return to work OnlyFans, which will take us into our next story. We'll be right back. Chad, are you familiar with Riley Reid? Chad: Not until this article came across my desk. Joel: Yeah. I've never heard of her either. [laughter] Joel: Yeah. Okay. So anyway, Riley Reid is launching clona.ai, an online platform that allows users to chat with digital versions of adult content creators and porn stars. These avatars are trained with explicit consent from the models creators, giving them control over the AI companions conversations. Users can subscribe for $30 per month to engage in "intimate conversations," with their favorite adult stars. Clona uses Meta's Llama 2 language model as a base and refines it to reflect the personality of the person it's based on while the AI can engage in explicit conversations, the extent depends on the actor's preferences, not the users. Despite ethical concerns, Riley Reid believes the sex industry will play a significant role in adapting AI into society. G, you think like Porn's had a big role in everything that technology is coming to her life. Chad, what are your thoughts on intimate conversations with porn star ai? Chad: I mean, the oldest profession, prostitution as an occupation, dates back to 2400 BCE in Mesopotamia, for God's sakes. That's right, kids. Sex has always been good business. And now women can step away from prostitution and stripping to scale a much safer sex selling business. AI to duplicate versions of yourself. Now that's fucking scale. And at $30 a month, or $360 a year, and let's say she has 10,000 subscribers, that's a cool 3.6 mil baby. Yes. The robots are the sex workers in this model, which is, again, much safer. She knows sex cells, and unlike the prostitutes of Mesopotamia, she doesn't have to worry about some fat dudes grimy mitts on her. So let the algorithm do the work and cash those fucking cheques. [laughter] SFX: You cannot leave. Joel: Okay. If you're OnlyFans, you acquire this company Or build this shit as soon as possible because Naughty AI is the future. And like, wouldn't you rather, instead of getting naked, like have a visual that is a human, and someone can bend it, do whatever it wants to do. You can have chats, talk conversations with Riley Reid. She's as naughty as you want her to be. To me, that's the future. But you have to be a big porn star to have an audience that people will pay $30 a month for that kind of access. While we were on planes this past couple weeks and those eight hour flights from Europe had, a lot of time, I watched the movie Her again. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Which is a 10-year-old movie which is pretty cool. So if you don't know, it's Joaquin Phoenix. Scarlett Johansson is the voice who should be the porn voice for everything, but I digress. Anyway, having conversations, relationships, like I'm dating an AI. These are things that's gonna happen. People are lonely, loneliness epidemic. People are gonna embrace this thing. It's gonna make a ton of money. What was really strange in Her was, and I'd forgotten about this... So he talks, she's Scarlett Johansson's in his ear. He talks to her like, wakes up. She laughs at all his jokes. She thinks he's super smart. So a real woman gets involved and she puts Scarlett in her ear and like a video thing. So she doesn't talk, but she's talking and Scarlet's in his ear, but she's doing the physical human stuff with I guess the equivalent of a prostitute. So that's how you get the physical, but still feel you're connected. It really scrambled my brain and fucked me up a lot. So anyway, if you're OnlyFans, to me, this is a big trick. [laughter] Joel: If you don't follow suit and buy this company. But if you are a lonely guy looking for love, this is a huge treat. SFX: [laughter] So bad. Joel: I love Halloween. I worked in a trick or treat joke at the end, Chad [laughter], have a good time in Portugal, whatever the hell they're doing in Portugal for Halloween. And we out. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast. Oh, maybe you cheated and fast forward it to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell. Enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey. Or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckle heads instead. Now, go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

Things tend to get a little kooky around Halloween, which the world celebrated this week, and the news around work was a bit discombobulated too. Our eighty-something president laid down an executive order regarding AI regulation, labor unions struck a big blow to The Big Three, and LinkedIn cuddled up to frenemies like Beamery, Eightfold, and Radancy. Plus, OnlyFans-inspired dismissals strike the same school twice, and an epic duel of Who'd Ya' Rather pitting Yourco's David against Traba's Goliath. The boys even throw in some KFC rejection letter entertainment, brought to you by social media, and the demise of WeWork. Thanks, internet! PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. [music] Joel: Oh yeah. Two guys just waiting around for a Frankie Goes To Hollywood reunion tour. What's up, kids? You're listening to the Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel, relax, Cheesman. Chad: And this is Chad Hot for teacher Sowash. Joel: And on this episode, LinkedIn goes deep. [laughter] SFX: Just the tip. Joel: Biden takes on AI, and somewhere, Jimmy Hoffa is smiling. Let's do this. Chad: Happy Post Halloween. Joel: Post Halloween. What is Portugal Halloween like? Chad: It's not the same, but here it's not a door to door thing. The kids, we've got two schools that are here in our little village of Cabanes. During lunch, they actually do like a little parade downtown, and they come into the different cafes and restaurants and whatnot. And then that's when they get candy and whatnot, so that all the people that are there, they give them stuff. That was really cool. So did you have a good flow of kids looking for full size Kit Kats? Joel: Decent flow. I'm curious, do the kids do a parade or is it the adults or the community? Chad: Yeah. The kids do a parade. Joel: So the kids are just parading around the street. Okay, that's interesting. Chad: They come to the streets, they go do their thing from business to business instead of coming to your door. Joel: That's a fat Tuesday for a bunch of kids [laughter] asking for beads. I mean, candy. Chad: Margarita, here you go. Joel: It was fine here. It snowed. It snowed, which whatever. Chad: Really? Joel: That's a thing. Yeah. So that meant hot cider with plenty of Jack Daniels... Chad: Which you have plenty of. Joel: In that. Yeah. [laughter] Jeremy is six. I got a 17-year-old and a 14-year-old. Here's the breakdown. 17-year-old went to his girlfriend's house, did the Texas Chainsaw Massacre outfit... Chad: Nice. Good for him. Joel: Which was really good. He actually had a real chainsaw with no chain on it. He went all out. [laughter] Wore a tie for the first time in his life, I think, had the fake blood. Chad: My God. Joel: My 14-year-old was too cool for school, didn't do anything, which was kind of a bummer. And then the 6-year-old, he was a Pokemon character I don't even know. Went to his friend's house. And the kids, the problem with 6-year-olds, they do an all-out sprint for like 30 minutes, to as many houses as they can. And then it's like, crash and burn the last hours, like kids throwing shoes at each other, candy at other people, tears, "I'm gonna sit down and meltdown." And then it's like, "Fuck it, let's go home." We do the whole thing with the candy at the door. My wife being the fun police is like, "Only take one." [chuckle] And then we have a ton of candy left 'cause everybody just takes one... Chad: Oh, Canadians. Joel: 'Cause they're scared to death, I guess. Yeah, Canadians. Yeah, yeah. Socialism on Halloween is always fun. But it was great. [laughter] It's nice 'cause I have a young kid. The older kids are done, but I get to travel back in time and re-experience Halloween with a 6-year-old. Chad: I had a new experience. We went to a Halloween party in Tavira. Julie and I went to... We dressed up as a goth couple, which I've never been in my life, and I wore... [laughter] I painted my fingernails for the very first time. Have you ever had your fingernails painted? Joel: I can't say that I've had my fingernails painted. No, that sounds... Chad: Well, being a girl dad, a lot of dads have their girls paint their fingernails, paint their toenails, that kind of thing. Emma was never really into that. She was soccer or softball, that kind of thing, so that never happened. So this is the first time I've ever had my fingernails painted, and I thought, oh, this is really cool. And it was good with the costume. The next day, it just bothered the shit out of me. I don't know why. It was so foreign and alien. [laughter] So, anyway. Joel: We have cardboard Chad, we have Euro Chad, and now we have Goth Chad. I don't know. Chad: Not a keeper. Not a keeper. Joel: I think it's a step too far, in my opinion. A step too far in my opinion. Chad: Mine too, mine too. Joel: Well, we got a lot of the show to cover, so... SFX: Shoutout. Chad: Excellent. I'm gonna go straight into Halloween shoutouts. So this is for... Shoutouts to Halloween treats. That's right. Thanks to Elena, Abby, and the Skill Scout team for sending Julie and I a Halloween movie night at home, I'm sure you got one too, an Amazon gift card for a free movie rental. I thought that was really cool. They gave us a... We didn't get a trick, we got a treat. SFX: All right. All right. All alright. Joel: Okay. So I had another shoutout, and then a news story crossed the desk and it got replaced. So aside from family, Chad, I have two framed pictures in my office. One is an autographed Larry Bird photo, and the other is a signed Bobby Knight picture. The General passed last night. We're recording this on a Thursday. So, as a kid from the Midwest who was a Teen Hoops junkie, coach Knight was godlike for me, won a championship at Ohio State, West Point, three National Championships, the last undefeated season for a major school, Olympic Gold medal. When college kids actually played, he coached Jordan, Patrick Ewing, Charles Barkley, all those guys from way back in the day. Chad: He has accolades. Joel: He's got a resume. He's got a resume. Now, it's complicated. It's complicated as many famous people's resumes are. So minutes after the announcement, my dad calls me, he's holding back tears, asking if I had heard the news. Really impacted my dad who's the same age as Bobby Knight. My dad was a coach in Indiana, which you and I both had coaches who thought they were Bobby Knight, who wanted to be Bobby Knight. He's a dying breed. We'll never see another one like him again. One of the first books I ever read that I remember was A Season on the Brink about the '83 season. If you haven't read that, I recommend it. Again, he was a complicated personality, but for me, his attributes far outweighed his negatives. His past players largely love him. He will be missed and impacted my life in a big way. Shoutout to the General Robert Montgomery Knight. Rest in peace. [laughter] Chad: Sounds like a confederate General Robert Montgomery Knight. The next shoutout is almost a Cheesman shoutout. You're gonna love this, because this is about KFC. SFX: I happy. Chad: KFC rejections. So on the socials, [chuckle] I saw a screenshot of a KFC job application rejection letter, which read like this, "Thank you for your application to team KFC. We're cluckin' delighted [laughter] you're keen to join the flock. However, at this moment in time, your skills aren't the secret recipe the Colonel is looking for. But we'd love to hear from you again. Give us a cluck if you would like to apply in the future. Best wishes, team KFC, Dublin." Which was followed by the user's posted comment, "Getting a rejection email with multiple fried chicken related puns is a new low for me." [laughter] Joel: Here we go. [laughter] Chad: Shoutout to KFC. Joel: That escalated quickly. Chad: They do great on Twitter, not so great on rejection letters. Joel: Oh, just give me a coupon for a Chicken Little. That's all I want. Just give me a coupon. You don't have to go through all the hoops. Chad: I want a bucket. Joel: Don't need all the hoop. Well, yeah, if you're gonna throw in a bucket, then some biscuits and gravy too. So my second shoutout, last one. So rest in peace to the General. Rest in peace, apparently, to WeWork. WeWork is planning to file for bankruptcy as early as next week. They had a net long-term debt of 2.9 billion. Chad: Wow. Joel: And over 13 billion in long-term leases as of June of this year. In case you missed it, WeWork was once valued at $47 billion back in 2019. Now, that number is well under $100 million. Meanwhile, a dozen large office leasing deals in Manhattan this week, ranging up to 250,000 square feet each are nearing completion by the end of the year. Pundits say these deals show signs of recovery for the Manhattan office leasing market. The end of WeWork, the beginning of a new boom in commercial real estate. I think this may be another nail in the coffin of the work-from-home movement, unfortunately. Chad: Possibly. And at this point, I don't know why Adam Neumann is not in leg irons, for God's sakes. Jesus, talk about stealing. Joel: He just got a ton of money from Andreessen. He's got a new startup. It's just crazy. Chad: What fucking idiots. I mean, what idiots. Anyway. [chuckle] Things that people do love is free stuff. That's right. T-shirts from JobGet. Joel: Oh yeah. Chad: Beer from Aspen Tech Labs. Love those guys. Whiskey, two bottles of whiskey. One from Joel, one from me, from Textkernel. And if it's your birthday, kids, yep, I got one of these handy, it's Rum with Plum. So if you go to chadcheese.com/free, register so you could prospectively win all of that. SFX: Do you feel the tension in the air right now? I know I can. I can feel it all the way down in my plums. Joel: That's right. By the way, some of the names connected to this month's winnings. Bourbon goes to Monica Evje, friend of the show. Saw her at HR Tech. Beer goes to Nicole Adamson, who I posted on LinkedIn. She texted back, "This is the best text I've ever gotten in my life." [laughter] That's what we're doing here on this show, we're creating miracles and spreading love. Chad: Changing lives. Joel: And one of our interview favorites, Andrea Derler won the Rum with Plum. So, it was her birthday. More birthdays from this week go out to Elizabeth Hill, Dale Grand, Graham Ferguson, Louis Gleaner, Jarvis Carell, David Roddy, David Yorg, Eric Clemens, Kayla Campbell, Libby Sartain, and Shally Steckerl. Those are our... Chad: Nice. SFX: Happy birthday. Joel: Another trip around the Sun for some fans of Chad and Cheese. Chad: A lot of Europeans in that list. Joel: Let's get to travel. Chad: A lot of Europeans on the list. Our event's sponsored by Shaker Recruitment Marketing, kids. That's right, Shaker Recruitment Marketing. Wherever we go, the sex goes with us. That's right. The sex, the sexiness of Shaker Recruitment Marketing. So I'm going to be at TA Tech in London, December 4th through the 6th. If you are in London, if you're close to London, if you're even, I don't know, contiguous states, I don't know, in Europe, you need to be in London at TA Tech. It's gonna be a good few days. Go to chadcheese.com/events. You can register there. I'm gonna be MCing with Kirsty Kelly and there are gonna be a long list of people that you wanna sit down and listen to, not to mention have drinks with. So come see us, chadcheese.com/events. Joel: Europeans love us. How much do they love us? Chad: They do. Joel: Almost as much as the Minnesotans, which brings us to an update from Minneapolis. [laughter] That's right, kids. You know the European show. You remember the Recruitment Marketing show, the Cult Brand Series. We got a new one coming, Chad. Chad: Yes. Joel: It's the Chad and Cheese Podcast Does Data. We're partnering with Toby Dayton from LinkUp. These guys are producing just kick ass in-depth numbers around employment, what the Fed is saying, what ADP is saying, et cetera. They got their own numbers. Wall Street's finest are tapped into this data. We're gonna talk to Toby once a month, figure out what's going on, bring it to the people, give it in terms that everyone understands. And I, for one, I'm really excited because I watch CNBC and Bloomberg, [laughter] and some of these commentary on the numbers is really confusing, and I'm not quite sure, I'm Googling stuff. I'm excited to have Toby on the show to kind of straighten us out and get us on a level playing field with some of Wall Street's finest. Chad: Yes. And just so that everybody knows out there, remember we're on YouTube and this is going to be a YouTube exclusive. That's right. It's not gonna come out on the audio. We got way too much content that's happening there as it is. Plus you wanna see Toby and you wanna see the charts and graphs that he's going to be going over every single month. So as soon as the jobs data comes out, which is on a Friday, that next Monday, we're going to do the show so that next week, you're going to get that wrap up of the Chad and Cheese Does Data with our friend, Toby Dayton. Joel: Yep. That's youtube.com@chadcheese. Subscribe so you don't miss an episode. I'm excited, almost excited as Chad... [music] Joel: About a little fantasy football update. I'm moving up the charts, baby, and I'm excited. But here's our leaderboard again. FactoryFix sponsors our addiction to fantasy football. Number one goes to, again, Michelle Obama Sargent. She is kicking ass... Chad: Killing it. Joel: Seven in one, I think is her record. Yeah, just killing it. Chad: Fuck, yes. Joel: Number two, Marcy Malware. Number three, Joe Mason Dixon Line. [laughter] Number four, Jasper the friendly Ghost Banjart. Number five, Dina Plum promotion Perro. Dina got promoted at Plum this week, so another congratulatory... Chad: Very nice. Joel: Message for her in that. Yes, we are plummed out today. If you're not watching on YouTube, you gotta check it out. Following her is Dean Blizzard of Ossner. That's right. That's an Ozzy Osborne reference. Number seven, King of the Jill Patterson. Number eight, Joel Osteen Cheesment, or Joel Ostint? Osteen. Osteen, yes. Chad: Osteen, yeah. Joel: Number nine, Chad not-just-a-country-in-Africa Sowash. Number 10, Brent Spinerlosey. Number 11, Dennis Tupper Lake. Number 12, Kristen Urband in the USA. And that is... [music] Joel: The leaderboard of Chad and Cheese. And that brings us to... Oh my God, we got more. SFX: Layoffs. Joel: That's right. Some layoffs. This is a quick one 'cause we're gonna talk about it on the European show next week. So, tune in for that. But Germany's StepStone announced this week that it was laying off roughly "215" employees or about 5% of the company's 4,200 strong workforce. StepStone, a huge influential company there in Europe. So we will definitely talk about that. But that's a decent chunk of people whose lives will be impacted... Chad: It certainly is. Joel: Those are layoffs. [music] SFX: Topics. Joel: Alright, let's get political. President Biden has issued an executive order aimed at addressing the threats posed by artificial intelligence. The order seeks to prevent the misuse of AI for developing destructive weapons and supercharged cyber attacks. It also calls on Congress to pass data privacy legislation. The executive order establishes regulations such as requiring AI companies to conduct safety tests and share the results with the federal government. Industry standards, including watermarks for AI-enabled products, were introduced to enhance transparency. Government agencies will implement changes in their use of AI with a focus on addressing racial bias and civil rights abuses. Chad, your thoughts on Biden's executive order? Chad: Yeah, so it's really interesting as I start going through it to glean it. And there's a lot that's been written on this in a very short amount of time. I I think we should bring some people on the regulatory side of the house in so we can start talking a little bit more about this. It seems like we're always talking about this, but it's important. We're starting to catch up, I think, slowly to Europe who's really been aggressive. I mean, they were back early this year starting to formulate what they wanted to do around AI and being able to create guardrails. A couple of different points in the executive order. 7.3, which is strengthening AI and civil rights in the broader economy. So within the next year of the date of the order, they want to prevent unlawful discrimination from AI used for hiring. Chad: The Secretary of Labor shall publish guidance for the federal contractors, which we actually talked about before. What was the easiest way to make sure that this shit starts happening? Whether it's anything, I don't care if it's bias, it's AI with bias, you go after the federal contractors first 'cause they're the ones taking money from the federal government. They have higher standards that they have to meet, and it just makes sense. So that's one of the things that they're doing, but they're also looking at, which I thought was interesting and smart, increasing AI talent in the government. They actually are starting to put together a plan which will focus on... We all say small government's good. Not everybody does, but in this case, we need more boots on the ground, AI boots on the ground for governments. Chad: So they're looking at actually trying to build AI teams in all the different segments of government. I think that is incredibly important and smart. And then as the AP article says, we looked at social media and we allowed it to go unfettered, which fucked us. And it's continuing to, and we're starting to see, whether they're intended consequences or unintended consequences, it doesn't matter. They're still fucking consequences. We need to try to skate to the puck on this one. We need to look around corners. We need to try to figure out how this can be best used and how it could prospectively be used for evil. And that was one of the things that Biden was focused on. What can we do on the good side and how can we protect against the bad, deep fake kind of shit that will... It will happen. Joel: The road to hell is paved with good intentions, someone once told me. Chad: Always is. Joel: I was interested, you mentioned some pros and comments. Our buddy Ryan Steelberg at Veritone, CEO and President, posted on LinkedIn, "President Biden's recent AI executive order marks a significant step towards a future where AI becomes inseparable from ethical and responsible considerations rather than just a technological advancement. You talked about social media, you talked about... You should have talked about the internet. The internet for a lot was like, "Let it go, baby. Let it roll. Let it roll. See how the chips fall." Chad: Try to herd those fucking cats. Jesus. Joel: Obviously, that was a difficult one. Now, the internet's obviously more global than just the US, and I feel that AI is similar. We're in a political year. A year from this month, we'll be electing a new President. Biden's favorables aren't great. He's entrenched in two wars. He's entrenched in some inflationary issues, and so things are challenging. The political cynic in me says, what's the political reason to this? I think to take Big Tech to task, Google... Look, that's who this is going to impact; Google, Amazon, Microsoft. And they've been under pressure in terms of free speech and regulation. So I don't know if it's like a work-around with what he thinks the Republicans will do on Big Tech. I worry about how much teeth this is going to have. You mentioned federal contracts, so there is some precedent to say, hey, if you're doing work with the federal government, these are regulations you're going to have to deal with. But I don't know, is Congress going to finance this? Are they going to pass laws around this? Is there a new department that's going to be created, the AI regulation department? Joel: The CEO from Workday was quoted as saying, this is going to be a tremendous amount of work, a cost to us to provide data and report back to the government. And you're going to hear that more and more. But smaller businesses, are they shielded from reporting? There's a lot of stuff to be worked out around this. And at the end of the day, China, Russia, Iran, North Korea do not have to abide by any of these regulations. So, that concerns me. Are we going to hinder our development of AI while they run wild with it and innovate beyond what we're doing? So I think it's a great first step. I think it's some great bully pulpit setting the stage for what we should be and how we should be looking at AI. I just think the devil's in the details on this. How is it going to be played out? Who's going to be put under scrutiny of this? How are they going to report to it? What's it going to cost? Who's going to finance this? Who's going to actually police? Joel: Because in talks with our buddy Keith Sonderling at EEOC, if you don't have the money and the resources, it's really hard to regulate and take people to tasks. And even if they do, you and I ongoing conversationally talk about, wow, that was coins in the couch cushions kind of fees, right? So are there going to be real teeth around punishments around AI abuses? Are there going to be people in orange jumpsuits? These things all have to play out. I think the rhetoric was great. Everyone seems to be behind it, I just think, externally, and the details around this are going to be really hard to iron out. We're just going to have to wait to see what it looks like. But it's a great first step. Chad: Yeah. I think the interesting thing is you talked about Biden's favorability rating. The only ones lower are, I think, Trump's and Congress. And Congress has the shittiest fucking favorability rating that's out there. We're not entrenched in two wars. We are funding, but we're not actually losing American lives. So watch your rhetoric around that, if you would, please. The two segments of AI is incredibly important. And I think you're right, but I think these aren't two things that happen together. First and foremost, China is already creating guardrails around their own AI for their own society. Now, for the other society, the way that they attack from a defensive and/or from an offensive standpoint, they're going to have entirely different rules for that. And I think we will as well. So I don't think this is going to hamper us at all. And all of those companies who are making record profits and they want to make more money off of AI, well, these are the things that you have to do to ensure that it happens without having a Cambridge Analytica moment. I mean, these are all the things that we have to do to stay responsible. We can't just do this in an unfettered way. So yeah, I get it. Companies don't want to spend more money, but they want to make more money using the AI. Well, you're going to have to spend money to be able to make money. That's all there is to it. Joel: So I'll backtrack my entrenched statement and say, divided over two fronts, I guess. I'm curious, politically, do you think there's a reason to do this politically? Chad: The AI piece? Joel: Yeah, to come out with a statement and to take sort of the lead role on regulations around AI. Do you think that was politically motivated or no? Chad: I don't think there is from a political standpoint. I think there is just from the standpoint of social responsibility. It's our responsibility and it's our government's responsibility to take care of the citizenry, which did not happen on the social media side of the house or the internet side of the house. We didn't look to try to get around the corners. We just thought, "Oh, wow, this is a really cool toy we get to play with." I'm sure there are some political angles, but getting the president to do an executive order means it's incredibly important to him because he shouldn't be doing this. The Congress should be doing it. The problem is our Congress right now is in total, complete disarray. Joel: Yeah. I mean, we're just now starting to talk about social media and regulating kids, and it's 15 years hence of social media. Longer than that, but... So how long is this going to take? Geez. Chad: I don't know, man. Joel: And based on what I'm hearing in terms of how fast AI will ramp up in terms of being smarter and smarter and smarter, I don't know if government can keep up. It'll be interesting to watch. Chad: Yeah. Well, and we also had one... A Google executive said that general AI is within five years, which is fucking crazy, because we're talking about sentient AI. The generative AI that we're dealing with right now, nothing, nothing compared to what general AI is going to look like. Joel: Be afraid. Be very afraid. Well, from one AI bully to another, I don't know if that was the right transition or not, but let's talk about LinkedIn. They're launching a new hiring integration called CRM Connect set to be available in early 2024. This integration connects LinkedIn recruiter with candidate relationship management systems to simplify and streamline the recruiting process. It allows for sharing of data between these systems while respecting LinkedIn's members' data privacy settings, or so they say. The integration is launching with partners like Avature, Beamery, Clinch, your favorite Eightfold, JobVite, and Radancy, enhancing efficiency for LinkedIn recruiter seat holders who use these particular CRMs. CRM Connect promises to reduce the time spent switching between systems, provide recruiters with accurate and up-to-date candidate insights, and improve the ability to nurture candidates effectively by centralizing the information. Chad, this is not just the tip, this is LinkedIn going deep. SFX: Just the tip. [chuckle] Joel: What are your thoughts? Chad: It seemed interesting just from a connectivity standpoint, but what's the best way, as they say in the article, to "reduce time switching across systems? What's the best way to do that? The best way is to become the fucking system. So I don't think this is a technical exercise with partners because it feels more like an audition. Seriously, we all know that LinkedIn is like crack for recruiters. So, build out the CRM functionality or just acquire one that you've already connected with so that you can expand WalletShare for a more robust offering. So, while auditioning, keep your competition close, pull in their massive datasets, and maybe even unleash a little Open AI to the data to better understand aggregate recruiter behaviors, messaging, and anything else that you think the LLMs might be able to dig into. So no, I don't believe this is purely about connecting to Avature, Beamery, Clinch, JobVite, and Radancy. I think this is an audition. And I do have a funny follow-up here. I was speaking to a friend of mine about this to see what they thought about it, and they had one comment; "Eightfold is the Theranos of talent acquisition in a complete laughing stock. Plus, Beamery has no future ahead." So apparently, they don't think Eightfold or Beamery have a chance in hell in making the LinkedIn Microsoft team through this audition. SFX: 60% of the time, it works every time. Joel: So you think this is an audition for an acquisition? Chad: Yes. Joel: Essentially. Okay. All right. I'll take that a little bit, but spin it in this way. LinkedIn's new CRM Connect product is both defensive and offensive. It's defensive because they see CRMs as a threat to attention, and thus a competitor to their business that wants you to be on LinkedIn all the time. They want to keep you there, making all your CRM data available, and LinkedIn accomplishes that. To me, that's a no-brainer. They should have done that a long time ago. However, I do think this is offensive. You think it's an audition. I think it may be just a straight-up theft that we're looking at. [laughter] Remember the API playbook. Give third parties access to your platform, learn all about them, then shut them down by launching a competing product. LinkedIn used to make access to profiles pretty easy, then they throttled it, then they killed it. Then companies like HiQ who wanted to scrape the data got sued into oblivion. If you think the same thing or something similar isn't happening here, then I've got a bridge in Brooklyn that I'd like to sell you. Partner with LinkedIn at your own risk. Buy is definitely an option, but so is, let's just make it ourselves once we understand what customers want, what they're using, what they search for. You're going to open the kimono, LinkedIn's going to get a good view, and they're going to crush you. Or at least, that's the playbook, I think. Chad: I just don't think... We just saw LinkedIn, they just had a layoff, so they're starting to come down. I think from a resource standpoint, especially when you're the size of LinkedIn, you don't build something like this. You go ahead and you see, much like marketplaces that we talk about with applicant tracking systems, you see which ones work the best, which ones get the best traction and the best data flow that you can have back and forth. I think this is a pure audition for an acquisition play. But I agree, there's definitely an offensive-defensive mode that's here. I think, to me, when they put this article out and I was reading it, I'm like, I'm reading between the lines here. There's a lot not being said. Joel: Did it surprise you as much as it did me that SeekOut in some form or fashion was not included in this integration? Chad: No, that's a good point. I didn't even think about that. That is a very good point, especially when it comes to the data and the tech and obviously Anoop's connection. Joel: The relationship. Chad: Yeah, Anoop's connection with Microsoft. Yeah. Joel: Yeah. I don't know if that bodes well for SeekOut, but either way, LinkedIn is dangerous and beware. Beware, kids. We'll be right back. It's crack. Joel: Chad, how about a game of, who'd you rather? Chad: Yes! Joel: You know how we play the game, kids. We talk about two companies that have recently gotten funding, and then Chad and I will tell you who we'd rather. Well, in this first corner, we have Miami-based Traba. They've secured $22 million in funding in a round led by Peter Thiel's Founders Fund. Many of you will know the name, Peter Thiel, and if not, go watch The Social Network. Traba focuses on the light industrial staffing sector and focuses on challenges like outdated processes and low fill rates. They report a 99% fill rate and less than a day to fill open positions with above minimum wage average pay. The latest investment brings total funding to $43.6 million and positions the company for nationwide expansion. They employ 75 people. And in the opposing corner, Yourco, an Indianapolis-based startup, has secured $2 million in seed funding. The round was led by Ground Game Ventures with Ground Game Venture's managing partner and friend of the pod, Aman Brar, joining Yourco's board of directors. Joel: Yourco offers a text messaging platform for employers to communicate with non-desk employees such as those without work-related email accounts. The funding will be used to hire engineering and marketing staff. They employ 10 people. So Chad, I love a good David versus Goliath. Who'd you rather? So who'd you rather between Yourco and Traba? Chad: So Traba feels like a localized model of FactoryFix. Obviously, they're going to expand out nationwide, but they feel kind of FactoryFix-ish. And you know how much we love the boys over at factory fix. So trying to fill light industrial roles quickly can be performed faster than using staffing agencies. And I think that that is the big key, and that's their big market advantage. Yourco is a very, very young company, no question. But at this point, they're nothing more than just a basic platform feature. They're not a business. Communication is big, but this is one aspect of a platform that needs to wrap into technology like a Traba or factory fix, which connects you to your current staff and/or the external marketplace. So I see companies like Traba and FactoryFix are the future of staffing, because as I said earlier, it's about speed of identifying, notifying, and filling shifts, which is why I would Traba all day. SFX: What are you doing, step bro? Joel: All right. So this is almost a who'd you rather between Peter Thiel and Aman Brar, who we love, by the way. Chad: I would not go that far, 'cause I would have picked Aman. Joel: Peter Thiel has companies like Facebook, PayPal, Stripe, Reddit, Quora and the like in his portfolio, so that's pretty tough... Chad: That's a little bit of money. Joel: To go against. Aman is great at bootstrapping companies and then flipping them for 10X for a reasonable amount, à la his company, Canvas, who was acquired by JobVite. So while I think they're both going to be winners and I want to go with the home team from Indianapolis, I think if I want to make a billion dollars, I'm going to go with Thiel. If I want to make $25 million, I'm going to go with Aman. So while I'd rather both of them, I think that the money, Chad, is going to win out, and I'm going to go with Traba. All right. That is another episode of, Who'd you rather? Now, let's get into some union news. The United Auto Workers or the UAW as the kids call them have struck a deal with Detroit automakers. The agreement includes significant benefits for UAW members, such as a 25% compounded raise over four and a half years, increased 401k company contributions, and enhanced profit sharing bonuses. The contracts also include an immediate 11% raise and massive pay increase for those lowest paid workers. Temps hired this year, for example, will see a 150% wage increase over the four and a half years of the contract. Joel: This is happening in light of recent news around pay transparency laws saying the growth of advertized wages for new hires is slowing and even reversing with some companies now posting lower pay ranges and around 30% to 40% of employers not complying with laws requiring salary ranges at all. Chad, what are your thoughts on the news from Detroit and the pay transparency update? Chad: So I really feel like it's finally the time of the worker. Joel: Oh, do you? SFX: I want all of you to get up out of your chairs. I want you to get up right now and go to the window, open it, and stick your head out and yell, "I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take this anymore." [chuckle] Chad: So we've endured four decades of bullshit economic policies where the dollar stayed in the ivory tower and didn't trickle down. We have assholes like Josh Berson and Johnny Taylor driving anti-work sentiment, saying companies will go out of business as the C-suite and their boards buy more vacation homes and yachts and their compensation grows by 1500% compared to the people on the front fucking lines actually doing the work, getting 18%. So the UAW is striking a narrative that is counter to the pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps narrative that we got suckered into back in the Gen X days, because it's fucking hard to pull yourself up by your bootstraps when you can't afford fucking boots. We're also seeing, which is really cool, outside of GM, Ford and Stellantis, that Kaiser Permanente, CVS, Walgreens, Mack trucks, they're all starting to strike as well because they're seeing what is happening here, and that, again, they're mad as hell and they're not going to take it anymore. That, to me, is exciting. Chad: On the pay transparency side of the house, I watched the interview and I read some of the articles around this and they're talking about, "Oh, pay transparency isn't working." No, dumb asses. Companies are just pulling down... It's a negotiation thing. It's kind of like Berson said. Oh, yes, I would like to have a four-day work week. Well, yeah, asshole. It was a part of the negotiation, something that you can actually pull off the table. If you put the salary up at the level you're actually paying people right now, that's the starting point. So what do they do? They bring it down so that the starting point is down. So yeah, all of this is literally just a mirage, and for all of you idiots that are out there that don't understand how to negotiate, this is going to be really surprising for you. For all of us who understand business and we've been doing this for fucking years, guess what? It seems normal. SFX: All right, all right, all right. Joel: I'm shocked, Chad. I'm shocked that they got this done. When we first touched on this months ago, I said, they're a paper tiger, they're going to move jobs to Mexico, they're going to automate everything. I am impressed and shocked that this got done. Big win for workers. Big win for labor. Holy shit. Chad: Yes, yes. Joel: You're going to see more unionization. You're going to see stress from Tesla workers and right-to-work states want to unionize, or they'll just fucking go to Detroit. If you want to see an increase in applications to the big three of talented people, this is it. This is incredible news for unions, for workers that have been getting kicked in the nuts, proverbially, for decades. It's a big win for Joe Biden. I said early on when Joe Biden went to go visit, I said, look, both of these candidates need to try to elbow their way into getting this deal done. Trump went to a non-union shop. Biden went to Detroit and picketed for, I don't know, 28 seconds or something. But at least, he was there and the photo op was great. He can claim victory. He's going to be on the campaign trail in these swing states like Michigan, talking about union wages and the rise of unions and the common man and the working man and woman. So, big win for Joe Biden and the Democrats, in my mind. Joel: Loss for Tesla. They're going to have a hard time keeping unions at bay, I think. Obviously, some shareholders will probably take it with greater salaries expenses. We'll see how that goes. So far, early on, stock prices haven't declined much. So, Wall Street for the most part is okay with what's going on, or at least price it in. But I'm ultimately just shocked that this happened. And it proves once again, if you have leverage, you can get this shit done. If you're UPS and people need their packages, if you're making cars and people want to drive new cars, then you can get what you want. But before you strike and do all this stuff, have leverage and have the numbers to do it. They did this really strategically. They rolled out the closings of plants. They tightened the screws more and more slowly. It was just brilliant. I am super impressed with union leadership. I think they totally stuck it to the leadership of these companies. The workers won. If you're a Democrat, you're happy today about Joe Biden's prospects of being president. Joel: I'm shocked. The only cynic in me is that the car company said, "Okay, well, it'll take us five to seven years to automate. It'll take us that long to get to Mexico. Let's just give them what they want now and have a slow roll into oblivion. But let's make them happy today." But until that happens, this is a huge victory for unions. The pay transparency thing, look, if you're an employer, it is a good thing to put salary ranges in your job postings. You get better applicants, you get more applicants. Their retention at showing is better. It's just so stupid what we're seeing in pay transparency. Chad: I know. Joel: Companies just need to suck it up and do it. If you're not going to do it, Chad: Agreed. Joel: Is going to do it for you anyway, so you might as well fucking get on board [laughter] with pay transparency. But totally impressed with the union. I'm blown away that they got this done. Good for them. Chad: And I got to tell you that Shawn Fain, who literally took that position because the other guys got put in jail, and there's more transparency around the UAW today, and it has to be. I think this is like a new movement for collective bargaining and unions and hope to see this move through. And again, you mentioned Tesla. There are so many industries that are out there today who really need representation because the little guy is getting battered left and right. So yes, I think this is a very big one. And I'm excited for not just those workers, but workers throughout the entire United States. Joel: Big, big applause for the union there in Detroit. [applause] Joel: Very well done. Very well done. Let's take another break. Talk about OnlyFans for the first time on the show. [laughter] Just kidding. We'll be right back, everybody. Joel: All right, Chad, how about a little OnlyFans news? Chad: Imagine that. Joel: That's right. Megan Gaither, an English teacher and varsity cheerleading coach at St. Clair High School in Missouri was put on leave after it was revealed that she was selling explicit content on OnlyFans to supplement her income. Gaither, 31, cited financial struggles and the need to repay over $125,000 in student loans as the reasons for her moonlighting job. Her total income last year, including a coaching stipend, was about $47,500. Gaither said she had deactivated her OnlyFans account after a student left a note under her classroom door, hinting that they knew about her secret. Her colleague, Brianna Coppage, a former teacher at the same school, resigned after it was discovered that she was running an OnlyFans page with her husband. Chad, more OnlyFans drama. What are your thoughts on the latest? Chad: So, I automatically thought of Van Halen's Hot for Teacher, the video, when I started reading this. [chuckle] Because if you think about it, do you know how much more attentive I would have been in class as a teenager with these teachers? SFX: Just the tip. [chuckle] Chad: But seriously, what did those ladies do that was illegal? Nothing. Then why are school systems allowed to fire them or push them into actually quitting? If I'm not doing something illegal, then you can just fuck off. Plus, did it hamper the teacher's performance? It's amazing how we shame women for doing things that are not illegal, or we make them illegal, like, I don't know, healthcare choices for their own damn body. If I were them, I would sue the pants off of these school systems. See what I did there? Joel: I like that. That's good. [chuckle] That's good. That's not too bad, Chad. Chad: I don't get it, dude. I just don't get it. They don't make a lot of money. Joel: Well, we finally found the killer app for OnlyFans that's going to put it under is Joe Biden's student loan forgiveness. That's going to put OnlyFans out of business, if all these student loans get excused. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding, kinda. Chad: Doubtful, doubtful. [laughter] Joel: Let's go back to last week's Clona.ai, Riley Reid's new venture. By the way, I reached out to Riley Reid's people for an interview. We'll see if they reply. So far, it's crickets. So Riley, call us. Chad: I appreciate that. Good. Joel: Call me, Riley. Anyway, I think OnlyFans is going to be disrupted by cheaper, naughtier options like Clona. I really don't think... Chad: AI. Joel: We're going to be talking about OnlyFans in 10 years in the way that we are today. AI is going to take this over. VR is going to be a thing, body suits with vibrating condoms. Who knows what the future holds? But it's not good for OnlyFans unless they make some serious acquisitions. But the girlfriend experience is coming and it's not in the form of teachers moonlighting with booby pictures. Second thing is, can we start paying teachers like the rock stars that they are? Look... Chad: That'd be great. Joel: It's an election year. I want to hear some governors talking about six-figure salaries for entry level teachers. That's what I want to hear. You want to see states start outperforming every other state, you want to see kids from all backgrounds start to outperform their peers, you want to see best-of-the-best college grads go into teaching? Well, start paying them like the badasses that they are. And that's why Chad and I are running as co-governor in the State of Indiana this fall. That's right, kids. Chad: Jesus. Joel: Vote Chad and Cheese. Vote Chad and Cheese. We're running for [laughter] co-governor of Indiana. Oh my God. Coach Knight, rest in peace. We out. Chad: We out. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back, valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey, or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now, go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

Ya' down with LLM? How artificial intelligence is leveraging Large Language Models to power solutions like ChatGPT is redefining how recruiting and hiring is done. The problem is, its early innings, which means the masses don't quite understand the ramifications and how to harness the new tech in order to take their staffing strategies to a new level. That's why we invited Textkernel CEO Gerard Mulder on the podcast to make sense of it all. Textkernel’s LLM Parser, powered by GPT-3.5, represents a groundbreaking fusion of Textkernel’s proprietary industry knowledge with ChatGPT, making this dynamic combination the next generation in parsing technology, offering recruiters and HR professionals unparalleled levels of accuracy, efficiency, and insights into candidate data. Yeah, it's kind of a big deal, and the boys grill Mulder on the benefits, competitive landscape and potential threats. We also cover Textkernel's recent acquisition of Joboti, and dive into what potential moves the company might be eyeing in the future. Recorded live from the Textkernel booth in Paris at Unleash, you won't want to miss this conversation with long time Chad & Cheese sponsor. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps support and educate your workforce through disability awareness and inclusion training. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls, it's time for The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: Oh yeah, what's up, everybody? It is your prime minister's favorite podcast aka The Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host Joel Cheesman. Joined as always, the Jacques to my Cousteau, Chad Sowash... Chad: Amen. Joel: Is in the house. So we're recording live from Unleash World at the Textkernel booth... Chad: Wow! Joel: And what better first interview to have than CEO of Textkernel, Gerard... [applause] Chad: Gerard Mulder. [laughter] Joel: Mulder joining us. Gerard, welcome to the podcast, for the third time? Gerard Mulder: I think it's the third time. I did send you guys some recordings... Chad: You get a... [laughter] Gerard Mulder: So maybe it's four times? I don't know. Joel: You get a red velvet smoking jacket. Gerard Mulder: If he's named Jet, then I'm Gerard right now, right? Joel: Gerard. Gerard. Gerard... Chad: Gerard. Gerard. Joel: A rose by another name smells just as sweet. Chad: Like Textkernel, yes. Joel: What do you prefer? Gerard, Gerard, Gerard? Gerard Mulder: I'll do my official pronunciation on this show once and then I... Joel: Give it to us. Gerard Mulder: You can just... Gerard. Joel: Gerard. Chad: Gerard. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Gerard. Joel: Gerard. Yeah. Alright, so you guys are making things happen. You're moving and shaking. Some news that recently came out. The Textkernel LLM Parser... Chad: Oh my God, here we go! Joel: Give us the skinny on this release. Gerard Mulder: Yeah. So like with every development in machine learning over the past two decades, roughly we're also embracing large language models. And the great thing about these large language models is that the start that you have is already at a very high bar, it's better than anything that's come before. What the great thing about our capability now is that we're combining this large language model with our proprietary deep learning models. And by doing that, we can actually get it even more accurate, but also we're able to solve for a really big problem, which is the speed of the parsing. We're basically breaking up with our deep learning parser, the CV into bits, and then sending that into synchronous separate calls to a large language model. And this way, we can actually get to reasonable speeds still. I must say it's for our high volume customers. It's not the recommended solution right now because it's going to be too slow. But if accuracy is really important to you, it's great. And we're super excited. Chad: Practical use. One of the things that cracks me up is we've been talking about large language models and ChatGPT this and Bard that and Claude, and we're not hearing real practical reasons to be using, literally, from a business standpoint. And this is probably one of the first. Other than going and putting your job descriptions into ChatGPT. It's just, it's one of those things where it's really cool to be, you guys are the market leader in parsing, matching all the way around. And now, instead of just staying still and waiting for the market to do something, you're doing it yourself. Gerard Mulder: We were the first to release deep learning-based parsing engine. And now we're the first real supplier to deliver a large language model parsing engine. And we'll continue to also test different large language models. We're definitely going to jump on top of LLaMA, for instance, from Facebook, because... But the great thing they do... Chad: Why not? Gerard Mulder: Is they're making it open source, so that creates a lot of possibilities for us. That's great. And I believe that we're still scratching kind of like the surface of where AI or where digitalization and automation... Chad: Well, you're just starting though. Right? You know what? I think most people don't understand is you don't just plug in an LLM and it just works at the max and best efficiency and/or capacity, right? Gerard Mulder: No. Chad: This is a learning type of prototyping, type of a thing. And so, I mean, it's going to get better over time, speed-wise, accuracy-wise, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Gerard Mulder: Yeah. And what's most exciting about it actually, is kind of like where we're taking it next, which is sort of like, you have to imagine, you can ask anything, basically, you name it, we got it. It's actually a project we did during Innovation Week, the title of that, where we're using basically a large language model and we're letting you, kind of, on the fly, decide on the data model of your outputs. And where I think the value of large language models will come in is that you can combine what's in the profile of a candidate with the real world knowledge that's inside such a large language model. But the question is, how do you do that in an easy manner and also a scalable manner? We're figuring that out, basically. Joel: And I appreciate Chad mentioning what you guys do 'cause we didn't ask at the beginning. We all just assume we know Textkernel and what you guys do. Would you add anything to the parsing side of it, in terms of a general view? Gerard Mulder: Oh, totally. So, parsing, it is how we started. Just like Sovren did, which we acquired, definitely, with confidence, I can say we have the best matching engine in the industry. We have a sourcing application that help recruit our search easily on external sources and pulling the data into our ATS. We deliver the most comprehensive insight in the labor markets, demand side of the labor market through our jobs data products. Just to put a number out there, we've analyzed 1.6 billion jobs. And you can analyze that job history and job trends historically real-time based on scale. So for every company there is in the US or Western Europe, I know what skills they're hiring for, what was the first time they were looking for somebody that knows Hadoop. Chad: You probably know better than they do. Gerard Mulder: Yes, we do. Actually, we do. Chad: Yeah. [laughter] Gerard Mulder: No, it's so funny. It's funny that you say that, because I recently... We once had a customer, and they were talking about kind of like how to get more control on what they were writing in job descriptions and also, kind of like what everybody was hiring for. And I said like, "Don't you know?" They said, "No, we don't." And I said, "Well, let me show you. And I can also show you where it was published. And I can also show you the context, people that are mentioned in these contexts." And they were like, "Wow!" [laughter] Joel: Long story short, we're biased, but Textkernel is awesome. Check them out if you need to. I want to get back to the LLM, the new technology. And so many times, a company in your position has to worry about disruption, has to worry about the next new company startup that shows up. How much of what you're doing is, we want to make sure that if we're disrupted, we disrupt ourselves? Is there a chance that this becomes the new foundation of Textkernel? Will this always just be a feature add? Is it a way to scare off the competition? Talk about the disruption and how you think about it. Gerard Mulder: Yeah. Textkernel is very innovative, basically from the start. We have this competition we do called Innovation Week, where we actually promote bottom-up innovation. Everybody in the company can pitch an ID. And it's not like a hackathon. It's actually a one week where we close the entire company, and it's not just for developers, anybody participates in such teams. And so basically, in the spirit of that, and also a little bit inspired by Google, we started Textkernel Labs. And with these large language models, or you could say the capabilities... Joel: I'm sorry, Textkernel what? Gerard Mulder: Labs. Labs. Joel: Labs. Okay... Gerard Mulder: Labs. Joel: Sorry, Labs. Got it. Alright. Gerard Mulder: Yeah. Labs. Is my pronunciation not correct? Labs? Joel: Labrador Retriever. Labs. Gerard Mulder: Labs. Joel: Got it. Okay. Gerard Mulder: So what we're doing in Labs is building prototypes really quickly to solve problems that our customers sometimes come up with or create solutions that we think of ourselves, and we make them available to our customers for a particular portal. It's not for all customers, it's some customers that get access to it. They provide feedback. And when we say like, "Hey, this is actually really interesting and it solves a big enough problem," we then start to productize such things. So I think that's a really good way of starting to actually really test the waters with all the capabilities of large language models and generative AI in general, figure out, hey, what actually really works? Yes, I agree with you like you said, like a job description builder, how much value is it? Still, we had to build one, but we did it in two weeks. Joel: People love the magic trick, Gerard... Gerard Mulder: Yes, they do. They do. Joel: They love the magic. Chad: Pull the rabbit out of the hat, Gerard. Gerard Mulder: That's in there, but like automated, reach out messages to candidates. Now, where we can add value in those types of things is because of our capabilities to analyze both a job description and a profile, and our kind of like our knowledge on the labor market, when I think about job descriptions, we know what your competitors are offering, what skills they're asking for. If you write a job description for a particular role, we can provide you that information and give you... Chad: Because it's all public data. Gerard Mulder: It's all public data. And we can give you suggestions. Actually, the job description builder was kind of like just a finger practice for us. But now customers are actually saying, "Wow, we want that, actually." And our partners are as well. So by building these things, we can also help our technology partners innovate faster at a very low cost. Chad: So, you're like crowdsourcing prototypes at this point? Gerard Mulder: Yeah, a bit. You could say that. Yeah. Joel: Yeah. Innovation is a core part of your business but also more and more are acquisitions. Everyone who listens to our show knows about the Sovren acquisition, one that was very recent was Joboti and I think there was another one... Chad: Excuse me? Joel: Yeah. Excuse me... Chad: Joboti? Joel: Let me get a Kleenex on that. Chad: So, talk about... Gerard Mulder: I actually use that internally, Joboti... Yeah. Joel: You used that? That's nice. Gerard Mulder: So I said like, "Let's shake our booty and party, that goes... " [laughter] Joel: I'm glad I'm making a positive impact on the world. Chad: That's what you're giving to the world, Cheesman. Gerard Mulder: Now we party like Joboti. Joel: Big booty Latinas and Joboti, shaking booties everywhere. Talk about the acquisition strategy, the companies that you've acquired, what kind of companies are you looking for? Are these acqui-hires? Talk about that strategy. Gerard Mulder: Yeah, so basically the strategy is two ways. On the one hand, we want to consolidate some part of the market because if we are on a bigger scale, then what we innovate and the innovations we bring to the market have more impact. So we can basically invest more in innovation that way. So that's one aspect of it. And the other aspect is actually acquire functionality that we haven't built ourselves, where we believe like, hey, this would really be a good add-on. So, Joboti or Joboti, well, it's actually pronounced, it's a very good example of that. If you look at Textkernel traditionally, we're building too many systems, like matching engines, parsing, data. But after the match, it stopped. We can automatically recommend great candidates to a job, but we don't control what happens after. Usually, not so much happened or it wasn't done in the right way. I wouldn't call Joboti the way we position it as a full blown candidate engagement platform. It's not, but it is the logical next step on what happens after you do a match or when a candidate comes to your recruitment side. Chad: Yeah. Candidate data gathering and you guys are a data company, so therefore, you can, it's a better engagement to gather more data, and then you crunch more data and you give out better output. Gerard Mulder: Yes, exactly. And like, hey, I found you a hundred good candidates automatically, now I've reached out to those candidates and 10 of them actually want to make an appointment, and we're making that appointment for you in your ATS as well automatically. That adds a lot of value. But what you are talking about is actually really interesting because the way I look at it like right now, many of our customers have huge databases. Some of them even with 20 million candidates in them. Chad: Well, they've spent how much money building that database. Right? Gerard Mulder: Unimaginable. Right? Chad: Yes, yes! Gerard Mulder: Yeah. Over years. Joel: Unimaginable for Gerard is a lot, [laughter] just so everyone knows. That's a lot of money. Gerard Mulder: Yeah. It's a lot of money. Yeah. But sometimes we do ask our customers, if we dare to be a little bit challenging, say like, "What is the value of your database actually? Or your people data?" Chad: Yeah, that's a great question. Gerard Mulder: In our Innovation Week, actually, we did a project where we started to create a dashboard and a dashboard would show kind of like what the potential value of a candidate database for a particular staffing company might be and what it is today based on the engagements of that company with their talent pool. And automation and the chatbots, and other like services around that, or analytics on your people data can significantly increase the value of the candidates database and can help you engage in a more relevant manner. And so, that's really where we're going and what we're building. Future acquisitions will also kind of like be in this path of trying to kind of like create a more automated flow and better communication with... Between companies and people, actually. Joel: And one of the things I've always been impressed with is the moat that you've built at Textkernel and obviously buying Sovren really consolidated that moat and made it even more intimidating than it was before. But you do have competition, you do have companies trying to get stronger that have been around a while. I don't see a lot of startups. You can comment otherwise [laughter] if you do, but talk about the competitive landscape. How do you think about it? What do others have that you wish that you need to build better? Are they stronger? Are you just the 800-pound gorilla [laughter] and everyone else is just renting space in your jungle? Chad: The big swinging gorilla. Gerard Mulder: We're way too modest to ever say we are. Right? Joel: You're way too Dutch. Gerard Mulder: Way too Dutch. Way too Dutch. Chad: Wait a minute, yeah. Come on. Come on. Gerard Mulder: So here's the thing. This is kind of like our, has been our kind of like go-to market strategy. We're an API business and we deliver point solutions. Sometimes, APIs are point solutions as well but what I kind of mean with point solutions is say we build an integration into SuccessFactors to solve a sourcing problem and we actually build it but our API business usually gets integrated by suppliers ourselves. From the outside, it looks like some companies, I'm not going to name any company right now, looking at one over there, might be actually seen as a competitor, but they're also a customer. So we are... [laughter] Joel: I love when that happens. Gerard Mulder: We are as a company, we believe very much in this composable product solution sets and what we're trying to do is give everybody in the industry, and I know, these are big words, we're trying to give everybody a leg up because we're trying to solve the hard problems that other companies can build on top of. When you look at competition, I have my traditional competition like XRI, for instance. And I appreciate them because we're kind of like the same age, started on the same bases. I'll never say any negative about them, but we have evolved beyond what we both started at and we're kind of like further ahead right now. We offer way more products [laughter] and solutions than they do. Joel: Well, certainly competition is good for business. I don't think you'd want to be the only guy in town. Gerard Mulder: Exactly. Exactly. And I think like I said, we're scratching the surface. There's so much possible. This market is still growing much faster than competition is coming into the market. And in the end, after that, it will consolidate, which could be a good thing for lots of people as well. Right? Chad: Well, from the outside looking in, for many companies or many prospective clients, let's say, they see the parsing matching side of the house as there are many companies that are out there that do it, but they don't understand that you guys are actually the guts behind a lot of those other companies, some unicorns that say that they parse and match, and you guys are doing it behind the scenes. Gerard Mulder: Yes. Best kept secret in HR tech. Chad: Yes. Which is always, I always thought was genius. Right? Joel: It's not a secret anymore. It's all on Chad and Cheese. Chad: The white labelling... Yeah. The white labelling... Gerard Mulder: Yeah. Well, we're not labelling anyone. Right? But yeah, you're right. Chad: It's smart business for them though, because it's hard work doing... It's like one of the heaviest lifts in the industry is what you guys do. Parsing, matching, being able to contextualize data is fucking hard. Gerard Mulder: Yeah. Building taxonomies, maintaining those. Yeah. Chad: You know better than I do. Yes. Gerard Mulder: Yeah. Ontologies. It's horrible. It's horrible. But we love it. Chad: It's horrible! [laughter] It's horrible. But we love... I wake up in midnight sweats all the time, but I love it. Joel: If it was easy, everyone would do it. Right? We talked about partners, competition, startups. We're here at Unleash. What are some of your takeaways of the conference? What are some of your goals here by exhibiting? What do you hope to get out of this week in Paris? Gerard Mulder: Yeah, regrettably, I'm only here for one day. It's just two days. Primarily happy I'm talking to you guys, of course. Chad: Thanks for being here, Gerard. Gerard Mulder: And having you on our booth. So that's cool. Yeah. For me, it really is a networking event and it's just like, and I just like, interesting company right behind our booth that's... I forgot their name, but... [laughter] Sorry about that. It's just like a new company and we're just talking about kind of like what are their biggest hurdles in development? And that's actually, skills and ontology. And they're like, it's such a big lift for them, but they have a great product to help people progress their careers. And just like in a regular conversation, you suddenly have a new potential new partner that will use your product. So for me, it's networking, just understanding what people are building... Joel: I think he's going shopping is what I'm hearing, I'm hearing. Chad: Yeah. If you take a look at it, all the startups that are around here, if they need data and 99.9% of them need data, they need somebody to parse it, contextualize it. It's like, this is shopping from a couple of different aspects... Joel: It is dating, yes. Chad: Number one, new clients in the prospect of, who knows, M&A one day. Gerard Mulder: Yeah. The other day, like many of the exhibitors here, are somehow using a software component of ours. The other day, some time ago, I was at the Borne event and I didn't expect it, I felt like, okay, this might be more competitive actually. They're more focused on staffing, of course. But even there, I suddenly noticed, probably 30% of the suppliers here use either like Sovren or Textkernel type of technology. We're trying to be nice to everyone basically, of course... [laughter] Chad: Smart. Gerard Mulder: And help out where we can. Joel: Yeah. Your brand is not one of animosity and fear... Gerard Mulder: No. [laughter] Joel: It's a loving touch that I get here... Chad: It's the red light district of the HR tech. [laughter] Gerard Mulder: Okay. Yeah... Joel: Everybody's wel... It's like, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa... Chad: It's very inviting! Joel: Now you've gone too far, Sowash. Chad: It's very inviting. Joel: Now you've gone too far. Gerard Mulder: No, but we'll take anybody on our booths, on our Textkernel booths. Whether you're a competitor or partner or a customer, we don't care. We'll take you around and you'll see. Joel: That's right. There's an electric bike and a pair of wooden shoes for everybody... Gerard Mulder: Yes. [laughter] Joel: At Textkernel. Gerard, thanks for your time. Thanks for letting us camp out here in your booth... Chad: Yes. Gerard Mulder: Yeah, you're welcome. Joel: For all of our listeners that don't know you, that want to connect and learn more, where do you send them? Gerard Mulder: Www.textkernel.com, of course, and you can also hit me on LinkedIn, Gerard Mulder. It should be easy to find in Amsterdam. Joel: Absolutely. And the best coffee is here at the Textkernel booth, by the way, as well. Chad, that's another one in the can. We out! Chad: We out! Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back, valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey, or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now, go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

Did you happen to catch ERIN at the SHRM show this summer? If you did, you’re probably wearing a Chad & Cheese T-shirt right now. You also probably learned about a start-up in the employee referral space who just raised millions for their business. In case you missed it, employers say referrals are their No. 1 source of hire. For these reasons alone, we had to invite Mike Stafiej, CEO at ERIN, on the show to break it all down for us. We also make fun of Cardboard Chad. Confused, gotta listen. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps forward thinking employers create world class hiring and retention programs for people with disabilities. Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Hey guys, cheese here. This is an interview I did with ERIN, CEO live from SHRM in Vegas. Unfortunately, my mic had some issues, so I've rerecorded my questions for this edit. Don't worry, the answers sound fine, but there may not be as organic a feel as usual. Enjoy. Mike: I'm here. This is me. Joel: You do exist, you're not just a sloth herder in Pittsburgh, which is nice. Some of our listeners don't know you and they don't know ERIN. Give them the elevator pitch. Mike: Yeah, So ERIN is an employee referral and internal mobility platform. We make employees, recruiters, I mean, that's our pitch. The outcome of what we do is more hires from employee referrals. So that's what we sell. Joel: So what's your background? Mike: So actually a nerd gone, sales guy, gone business guy. So degree in computer science, but like super blue collar, mix that all in as well. My dream, and I'm not, I'm not like exaggerating here. I was gonna go to college and I was gonna be the guy that replaced keyboards for people, because I thought you could make some good money doing that, like working in a big business. Oh, like Mike, my L key doesn't work. And like I show up and swap it out and they're like, you saved the day. Like, that was my mission. I was good at fixing computers. Right. Joel: And how Old were You? Mike: I mean, that was college. Like, I was gonna graduate college and like go, my internships were for Fortune 500 companies, like doing back office help desk stuff. Joel: What Did your parents do? Mike: Nurse and like machine room, right? So like oh, this is a college educated boy doing computer stuff. Joel: And your dream was to replace the L Key. Mike: Now you got to remember this is like, two, the L well, it's this L key specifically. Yeah. But there were other keys that I had my eyes on as well. The, this is like 2009, right? So like graduating college, like you can get a good job like helping people with tech. Now that was short-lived, so I had some internships, got a, basically from there on the abbreviated version is got some really cool jobs at startups and I only worked in startups, essentially my whole professional career. And I got to see companies go from nine employees to 250 employees and be part of that, right? So I started essentially as help desk, like dream come true, right? Like making 45 grand a year. And I made it like that... Joel: Going to one Steelers Game a year. Mike: Ah, dude, Pittsburgh, 45k in 2009. Like, I mean, that was a good out of college job. Like I was not complaining at all and benefits or excellent benefits. So anyway, I get in there and I quickly realize there's a lot of dumb people out there. So the, if you can talk about complicated things in a way that doesn't make people feel dumb, like that's something that people rewarded. And that happened at the startups I worked at. So I became a sales engineer. So I eliminated the technical hurdles on a sales cycle. Eventually quit to become a salesperson 'cause I wanted the glory. And then I realized sales is way harder than everybody thinks. I mean, extremely, extremely hard. It's fun to look at... Joel: People think it's easy... Mike: Everyone thinks it's easy 'cause like their perception of what sales is is what we're doing right now. Drinking in Vegas, hanging out expense cards. Like yeah, they don't realize the average sales person's life expectancy is like 16 months at a company, right? So like, it's high pressure but fun. And then eventually got into to starting a few companies and now we're here at ERIN, right? Joel: So what was it about employment that made you say, oh yeah, I want some of that. Mike: My dad, when I was younger was stiffed out of the referral bonus and I said, I'm gonna fix that. I'm kidding. I'm basically Batman, right? Like it's, honestly, the story is kinda unique. I was helping a lot of startups. So again, so I had a lot of startup experience through various companies and kinda like a triple threat in the tech background sales guy, with a touch in marketing, right? And I was working at, call it like a venture builder, it's like a fund that wanted to start companies. And they had several companies and they made the mistake of hiring a bunch of high up people out of big banks. And they're like, here is a company, run it. And they're like, okay, great. They have all these ideas, like now who does the work? And I come in and be like, you have to do the work. Mike: Like this is how you do it. And then through that, like recruitment became a focus for us. And eventually, like ERIN was just something I designed like on the side and it became its own thing. Like, so, all the reason we started, it's kind of different than a lot of people out there. It was still like a, I mean I designed every pixel from day one. I just went out there sort of talking to people in New York. I'm like, Hey, like we're gonna do blockchain referrals. This is 2018, right? So like, so blockchain and AI were things we had to say. Now it's funny because in 2023 you still have to say AI, it has like come back the pandemic, put it on pause. But like, it's like, no, no, no, we'll sell it again. But, so I'm out there like blockchain AI, like displaced recruiters and people are like, I don't know what you're talking about, but if you can give me more employee referral hires, I'll pay for that. And then so really just zeroed in on that problem and then built a solution around it. Joel: The name ERIN? Mike: Yeah. Joel: Talk about that. Mike: Okay, so the, it's an acronym, Employee Referral Invitation Network. ERIN Right? But the real reason I remember specifically, my kid was like two years old and I'm putting him to bed. And I get this email from one of the guys at the Venture Builder, right? And he's like, it's an article about how companies with human names have higher investments and higher customer satisfaction ratings, right? And it like cited like Marcus, Casper, all these things. And the, and part of their premise was is that it felt like a person and like a more of like a thing rather than like work, right? Like, so if I was like employee referral business, right? Like who gives a shit about that? So anyway, I got this article, I started just thinking of like HR-type names. Like what's like a fun person in HR, so the first one was Layla, right? Layla, like Layla app. Sounds cool. Sure. Layla.com is just like tons of porn. So like, couldn't use that one. So... Joel: So ERIN not as much porn around the name ERIN. Mike: Significantly less porn on ERIN. So then the name kind of ERIN popped in my head. And then like, the ER was an obvious like employee referrals and then kind of worked the acronym backwards from there. But it worked out. So we got there. Joel: Clearly Why Ask Jeeves is still the number one, search engine in the world. People really connect with those names. Mike: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're great example of the success story with ERIN. Yeah. Joel: Yeah. Obviously. [laughter] Joel: So you mentioned competition and standing out. The referral business, obviously, there's no public company in this business that has struck it rich. Many have come and gone. I don't need to turn the pages on those history. But you look at Firstbird that was acquired recently, Teamable, WorkTaps, which I got from Google I actually don't know if they're... Mike: Don't even know if they're... Don't give them any credits, 'cause they don't exist. Joel: Yes. So how are you different? Because it seems like companies buy the stuff. They don't like it. No one uses it. They try someone else. How are you guys gonna cut through that? Mike: I think there is a few layers there. And maybe to flip just one page back in the history book, we were super naive when we started. It was not like I came out of an HR office and I was like, "Referrals can be better." We were just trying to build a solid business and solve just a legitimate problem. "If you get me more referral hires, I'll buy that." That was what everything was based off of. So actually, when we started, there was a whole bunch of other companies and the gimmick back in the day. And we didn't even know about half of them. Like, we were ignorant. So the gimmick back in the day was like, "Connect your network. We'll tell you who to refer." That's actually the whole premise that got the company started. Without that idea of, "Connect your network. We'll make it easier to refer," we would never have started the company. That was our whole pitch back in the day. We've gotten off that because we realized, one... Mike: So there's about five other companies that did that back then, Teamable, Boon, Drafted. All of them have gone under fire sales or something like that, and it's because they stuck on that. So where we shifted pretty quickly is, through the pandemic, we realized that referrals is an enterprise problem. The bigger you are, the harder it becomes to get the numbers up. And we solve that at scale. So the value exponentially is bigger. What got us through... To just go off track for a second, what got us through some of that up and down on the pandemic is just large enterprise deals. And once we were able to solve that problem for enterprise, we were able to work backwards from there and then educate the lower end of the market on like, "This is what you need to go from 10% hire from referrals to 30-35." And then we could start making some big claims about like, "Look, here's your business at 10%. At 35%, this is what it looks like. Go tell your CFO that." So the difference, I think coming full circle on this, is we're truly an ROI-driven product. We talked earlier today, we had a little session here. I said, "If you cannot save money by hiring more employee referral hires, you should not invest in employee referrals." So obviously, we know that you're gonna save money. The trick is, is how do you get there? Right? Mike: And part of that play where I think people have missed is, one, that they actually didn't listen to their customers. So the superpower we had, and somebody told me to stop saying this, but I'm gonna keep saying it, is since we had no preconceived notion about what the solution looks like, we just listened to our customers and built what they needed, and then we were able to sell that to other people. So some of the things that we're doing, specifically for enterprise, but that, again is trickle down to mid-market, our competitors don't even touch. They don't even say the words that we're saying on their sales call. So I feel like we have a little bit of an advantage there. But maybe to wrap it up, when you look at a lot of the acquisitions that have happened, it's definitely been because they're like, "Oh, this is a good feature of something bigger." And they bring it in. And look, that could naturally happen to any startup. I think as soon as you get success, somebody wants to make it part of their suite and they're good. But where we're really... Where I'm personally really excited about the future is I think HR tech and AI and talent acquisition altogether are kind of in a weird spot right now. And what I mean by that is... Mike: I mean, realistically, in 5-10 years, you're gonna have less people in talent acquisition than you have today. They're being replaced by AI plays and efficiency plays. We're not here to replace recruiters, but we're here to keep humans involved in the process. And I think as the dynamic of a talent acquisition team changes, meaning you have more sysadmins than necessarily recruiters, keeping humans involved in that process is a really appealing thing to the future. That's not just referrals, there's a lot of things you can get out of that. And so we really look at it. We're an employee-first product. And now that we're in the employee's pockets with 2 million employees using the system in 100 countries, what else can you do for that employee? I will buy into, "You cannot be an employee referral product forever. If that's all that you ever do, there's a ceiling that you'll run into." But I think we have a good foundation for some pretty appealing plays, especially because of the mobile play that we have. Joel: Is it fair to say that companies do not have more than one referral solution? Mike: Yeah, that's a pretty safe bet. Joel: Okay. So you're replacing generally what someone already has. Is it like the ATS where everybody hates their ATS, everyone hates their referral program and they're looking to change? And how hard is that change to make? Mike: Yeah, it's a great question. But honestly, it's actually not... Replacement would be a big word for it. Because the ATSs have a feature that allows referrals, but they don't get deep. It's just like, "Oh, here's a share button." That's really what it is. And then you can see the sources, a share. Or on the application, "Hey, how did you find out about us?" And they say, "Oh, somebody referred me." That's the extent of the ATS referral programs. We go way deeper about that. And the problem with those solutions, so we don't necessarily look at those as competitors, but somebody that doesn't give a shit about raising referrals from 10% to 35%, they're fine with that. But they're not our customer anyway 'cause if they don't care they hire more than 10% hires from referrals, why would they even talk to us? So they're cool with the out-of-the-box tech. But if you wanted to be at 35%, none of those solutions can get you there. The real difference is creating that experience for the employee, because the employees don't use the ATSs. Those are candidate-focused products. We're an employee-focused product. Joel: You did not say the death of recruiting, or the recruiter. I wanna make that perfectly clear. But this feels a lot like a marketing tool to me. Do you see more of what you do and more of what marketing does bleed into recruitment? And are you sort of in the pole position to take advantage of that? Mike: Yeah. Yeah. So with the large customers that we work with, they'll have a recruitment marketing initiative, whether they outsource it or I mean they have somebody dedicated to it. So it's interesting when they get pulled into the conversation, because it's definitely like a communications issue at first, like one of the biggest problems for why referral policies fail today is 'cause nobody knows about it. Then the second is that nobody knows how to participate. And then the third is that it's a bullshit experience. You have no idea what happens after you participate. So communications is a big part of solving all three of those problems. So it's starting to get blurry there. And honestly, where I see the business headed is a lot more recruitment marketing as well. But like through the employees, I'll give you a simple example. We were talking earlier about newspapers and whatnot, like a billboard to advertise jobs, like maybe effective in some markets. Mike: But what's really effective is when you have somebody make a 10-second video on TikTok and they have 50,000 likes, and nobody wants to see an ad there. They wanna see real people quick hit stuff. So how do you get your employees... Your employees are the ones that have to do it. You can't manufacture that. So how do you really tap into viral and you got to get through the employees to do that. That's where I see referrals maturing with technology in general. It's like with consumers and especially in certain industries. Like, we were talking earlier if... It's one thing, if you're looking for a bunch of accountants, but high volume retail, hospitality, things like that, you're not... Billboards aren't gonna work. Mike: You need to be more in like the current tech. Glassdoor reviews, super popular. So why can't you reward your employees for helping you with those things? So employee referrals traditionally is like, get me a hire. It's actually not that it's share this job, push it out there, let the world know that we're hiring, help us with that. And our whole take with the current product is that you should reward that behavior. So if you're sharing a bunch of jobs for me, I should give you something for that, whether it's a gift card or a giveaway or whatever it may be. So the same thing goes with Glassdoor reviews, viral videos, those are things that should be rewarded as well. Mike: And the other thing people don't think like the first part of the gig economy was employee referrals, right? It's no different than a, "Hey, go drive me here and I'll give you a couple of bucks." Employee referrals is the same thing. "Hey, go be talent acquisition for a day and I'll give you two grand." Like tapping into that. And I think really pulling back that experience and then breaking that down and spreading that across tens of thousands of employees, you're going to see a lot of roles within a company, not just talent acquisition, I think kind of like, decentralized, we'll say, and split up like, " Hey, I'll give you 50 grand a year to do this job, but I'll give you an extra grand a week if you do this job." I think there's going to be a lot of how the world changes in the next 10 years. And I hope to be able to capitalize on it. Joel: Yeah. It has always felt more marketing to me than recruiting. Like commission junction was the original or Amazon's affiliate program, training people to have a unique URL, share it with the world and everything bought that always seemed like a natural fit. And it always seemed like that would be something marketing would understand. How do we get more hires, more exposure to opportunities through that mechanism? There was a company... Part of me thinks this is generational. There was a company called H3 before the car that did this. Mike: I only know about them because of your podcast. Joel: Because of the podcast. Mike: Otherwise I'm like, "Who the hell is that?" I Googled them, I can't find them. Joel: H3 and the founders, a friend of ours of the show. And I had conversations with him about why wouldn't this work? Because I actually joined the service. I knew someone that wanted a recruiting job. I referred them. They had sort of the unique URL. They tracked it through the, I guess, ATS at the time. And then I actually literally got a check in the mail because I referred that person to the job. And that seemed like an amazing business to me. Like if you could somehow harness that, it didn't work. Mike: Yeah. Joel: And when you talk to... Hans is the guy's name who founded it. When you talk to Hans, he says that social media wasn't there at the time, but more importantly, there was a generational cultural opinion that you don't just shotgun jobs. It's something you don't just shout from the mountaintops. Is it your opinion that Gen Z, younger millennials, they don't give a fuck. They'll share the shit. Mike: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why would they? Joel: I want to get paid. Mike: Yeah. Yeah. And I'll tell you, this is a great point 'cause we have this conversation with customers all the time. One of the questions I'll ask is like, "Well, if they're sharing it on social, do we want to give them the same amount of credit as if they refer them?" I'm like, "Well, what problem are you trying to solve?" Start with that. And if the problem is that you don't have enough candidates, then who gives a shit. Get them any way you can. And usually they're like, "Yeah, you're right." And I was like... And I'll tell you what, once you hit 35% hires from referrals, scale it back. Part of the problem, going back to your earlier question, where people were just missing is that the nuanced details of actually taking their paper policy and then putting it into software is really hard to scale, right? Joel: Yeah. Mike: And what I mean by that is, do you want to treat a social share different than a direct referral? Your program better be able to differentiate that and handle that and it should be able to have the analytics on that as well, so that you can make those decisions. And that's really what we do. That... When I say like your ATS doesn't touch that, your ATS doesn't go that deep. We go literally as deep as you can on this topic. And everything we've ever built has been designed from our customers. Not to get too abstract, jumping back here. I think that is a little bit dated in a mindset, but I also think it's always, again, what problem you are trying to solve, what outcome you are trying to drive. And if you're having a hard time hiring, I'd say who cares how you get the candidates, as long as they're quality, and then have the ability to scale that, calibrate that as you go. So that if you are getting spammed with a bunch of junk, then maybe that's not part of your plan. Most customers don't care about that right now. Joel: Yeah. So your product is primarily employees that work at the company to empower them to market, share jobs, etcetera. It's not for the world at large to find out, "Oh, Microsoft has a job." I know I'm not an employee of Microsoft, but I know someone who might be good for this. I'm gonna share that. It's not part of that as I understand, is it going to be, do you have an opinion on keeping it in-house versus letting the world know about these opportunities? Mike: I mean, this is, and that's kind of going back to your H3 question. Honestly, that was the original ideation of this product, which is like anybody can be referred, actually a great use of a decentralized thing, which is logging on the blockchain. And I mean... Was it hired.com that they basically did this. Joel: Yeah. Mike: Like, Hey, anybody can be a recruiter and then they still charged charge the same bullshit fees that an external recruiter would charge which is a huge miss. Right? Like... Joel: Yeah. Mike: So one, I mean, look, marketplaces in general are hard. B2B is a lot different than B2C and you're essentially talking about mixing both together and it takes a lot of money, a lot of time, a lot of presence to really build that, I do have an opinion that it pulls a little bit too far away from the quality at that point. But the biggest thing, 'cause we've tackled that specific problem with some other people and we've allowed them to do that in certain ways. The biggest thing is taxes. Like, how do you, if you're giving a real bonus for that or anything worth value, which you need too to catch anybody's attention, the paperwork is not worth it. 'Cause I already have 10,000 employees, why do I need 350 million? Right? Like, the 10,000 can do it better than the 350 million and I don't want to have to get 1099s for all of them. Right? Joel: Yeah. Mike: So like, at least in our customer base, like they're struggling enough as it is in terms of like resources. So then like, handle the paperwork for non-employees is, would be a nightmare. That's usually what kills that conversation. Joel: Interesting. Mike: We can do it, but usually they decide, our customers decide not to do it. Joel: Got it. Mike: Because it's just not worth the headache. Joel: Got it. So you raised $5 million late last year? Mike: Yep. Joel: What has the money gone toward? Or new raises. Mike: Do you see these Chad and Cheese T-shirts? Joel: Obviously the Chad and Cheese. Mike: Yeah. I mean, like, these are nice ass shirts and they're like, so most of it went to the shirts. Big part of it went to the Chad cutout. Joel: This loss and the cardboard Chad and the T-shirts. Mike: Yeah, the high, it's a nice cardboard though. And it's stands up. Really it's a... Joel: Oh, it's a top of the line cardboard. Mike: So... Joel: As only Chad would would want it. [laughter] Mike: So we had early success through the pandemic and right after. We're not like some like instant success story. It was two years of grinding it out and then the pandemic created a situation where people wanted to invest in more nuanced ways of recruiting. Joel: Yeah. Mike: And referrals has always been the gold standard. We got it. So we were able to build enough of like really product market fit over the last two years that drove the round. And that round was based on what we are today and also what we can become. Going back to some of the other stuff that I just shared with you. So that said, I mean, mostly growth, right? Like, say like, you see here, we have the bigger booth. I mean, we're not gonna be like HR tech, crazy big booth. Joel: Few more people on the booth. Mike: Yeah. Few more people. So we hired salespeople, marketing people. We doubled the size of the company in the last, six months. But we're still, I'll tell you, raising money last year was a really cool experience because like, we were profitable and then raised money and just advice for other entrepreneurs out there. It's 2023. If you did do not have a path to profitability or you're not profitable already, you're not getting the money you want. Joel: Yeah. Mike: So like, that has to be a number one focus. So while we're spending that to grow faster and it's been working, we're still like super cautious of just like, what's next and what's the world gonna bring to us? And we want like our growth to kind of, to fund that more than anything. Joel: Yeah. Mike: So the round has been awesome. It's given us flexibility, but more than anything, like our customer base has been growing the business. Joel: So are you actively looking for new funding? It's sounds from your comments. Mike: Yeah, yeah. Joel: That it's a much more challenging environment. Mike: This shows you like half, I said wolves and I'm a little sheep. Right. Like, they're just like circling me. Like there he is. [laughter] get him, get him. I think part of a CEO's responsibility is always fundraising. Whether you need the money or not, you should always have options. The time we're in right now is the that people that need the money, the people with it don't wanna give it to them. And the people that don't need the money, the people with it want to give it to them. We wanna be in that second category, right? Joel: Yeah. Mike: So we operate our business as if we're never gonna raise another round again. However like look, I just, I told you the 10 year plan, which is there'll be less people in talent acquisition. They'll have different roles. It's like when ATMs came to banks, right? Everybody thought, oh, like we're never gonna have tellers again. So no, like the jobs are still there, they just did different things, right? So AI's coming in and that's your ATM, I think the space is gonna change pretty dramatically over the next 10 years. And I like the fact that so many businesses have done referrals and have failed. And one thing investors always start with is like, HR techs are crowded space. I'm like, it's a crowded space with a bunch of bullshit. It all looks like crap. None of it integrates or works the way you think it does. So when you get good products in there, there's actually a lot of, there's a ton of potential from this space. Joel: Yeah. Mike: And we wanna be on the not only the cutting edge that's saving the bleeding edge of that at some point. So referrals is a pretty safe and traditional play. Joel: Yeah. Mike: But I see a ton of potential. So our future rounds of funding would fund these bigger efforts. And like I said being a referral product forever, like our story could be that we just get gobbled up like the others have. Or we could drive some really cool shit in the future. And really cool shit takes a lot of money. Joel: I like cool shit. You mentioned integrations. How important has that been to your growth? Mike: 100%. So listen, I'll tell you, I didn't know what an ATS was when I launched this company. [laughter] Mike: That's how outside I was. I'm not kidding. And I'll tell you, I'm trying to think of all the assholes that told me no in the beginning. Like, there was a list of ATS, they were like, you ever seen, remember this show, was it Billy Madison? Joel: Yeah. The movie? Mike: Yeah. Or the movie. But when he calls the one dude and he is like, Hey, I just wanted to apologize for being a dick to you in high school. And he like crosses him off the kill list. Like, that's like, that was like me with ATSs back in the day. I'm like, these are all the dudes that told me no, right? We're not gonna touch your startup. You can't integrate with us. And then I did it anyway. And then they came back and they're like, oh, like you actually know when people are unhappy with a product because they're investing in things that we do poorly. Joel: Yeah. Mike: Which is referrals. So maybe we should actually be friends with you. So like I love having relationship with some, but critical, I mean like every, we have one customer that's not integrated. Joel: Wow. Mike: Every, so not only ATSs, we do the full tech stack at this point. So as our product evolved, we realized you needed, like, it's not just about candidates, it's also about it, Hey, like employees in like eligibility. That stuff's not in the ATS, it's in the HRIS system. So we integrate there, we integrate with single sign-on. So it's really the whole tech stack. But out of our own ignorance, the way we did that was basically out of those systems into ours. So it's made these integrations a lot more painless than people expect. Joel: Yep. Mike: So that we can come in and like, look, if you're a Greenhouse customer, you plug in the API and it works. If you're Workday, it's like, here's the RAS report we need, and like they're, okay we already did that for our website. Joel: Yeah. Mike: So we keep it pretty standard and that's allowed us to streamline that and make it, honestly, probably the easiest like full tech HR tech stack integration that people have done. Joel: You said referrals were the gold standard of recruiting. Why? Mike: There's a few reasons for it. And one, I mean. They... When you think about starting a company, really what you're looking for is something that's done on spreadsheets today. And you want to make it better, right? Because if they're doing on spreadsheets, that means they're doing it and it's important to them. But I mean, everybody's had a referral policy for decades. The referrals are the gold standard because one, it's a faster hiring cycle and it gives you a better quality candidate, and that's measured really by retention. And the biggest reason for that, people don't always think about this, is that when you get a referral, they actually know shit about your business, that your job description's not telling. The dirty laundry's been aired. It's like, here's how it works and here's what the job really is. And when you get a high quality referral that comes through that they know what they're getting into and they already have some people inside the business. So they, culturally, it's easier to fit in faster. Everybody listening to this has either hired, been hired by a referral or have made a referral before. This is my buddy, they're a good person. I worked with them before. You're basically putting out some credibility for them and you're putting your reputation within the company on the line. So that creates overall just a better candidate for everybody. Joel: One of the criticisms of referral programmes... Mike: Is this DEI. As soon as I said it, I'm like, oh. I know... Joel: Come on, man. I'm trying to sound really smart with my question, which never works anyway. But yes, if I just empower my employees, they're all going to look the same because they all know people like them a 100%. You clearly don't agree with that, but why not? Mike: So you're basically saying you're anti-DEI on your employee base, which is kind of fucked up. But I hear the premise. We actually, so we talked about buzzwords, right? So 2018 was blockchain and AI. 2019 was DEI. Do you remember that? Joel: Sure. Mike: If you didn't have a DEI product. Joel: We got a show. Mike: Like, oh dude, we were early stage startup. We had a DEI in play. And it actually worked. So what we did is we had, it's a diversity hire incentive. So you can plug this into anything you want. If you want to hire a woman on the sales team or veterans, whatever it may be, essentially. And now we didn't source any data on it. We just said, hey, if you want to reward people actually participating in your DEI effort, here's a way to actually do that 'cause the problem with DEI is that it's limited to just the talent acquisition team in marketing, obviously. So what I mean by that is it's easy to say, we have a DEI initiative, but to actually get your company to do that at whole, you actually have no way to do that. So when you say, hey, but we'll reward you and pay you to participate in that process because that's important to us as a business, so much so that we'll pay you double the referral bonus if you give us a DEI higher, then we'll be good. Mike: So what we did is essentially if the ATS tells us this person is qualified, that we do nothing to source 'cause it's just a slippery slope right there. But basically, and it could just be a recruiter checking the box at the end of the day, it then triggers a bigger bonus amount for that employee. It notifies them, hey, you've participated in the DEI programme. Here's a bigger bonus. So I'll give you a simple example. We had a customer in Spain, so all the people in legal right now are just licking their chops, like, got to go after. So this is in Spain, they're not in the US And I always tell people, we got to talk to your legal team before we do anything. We're just the product. Their sales team was heavily male dominated, so they double the bonus if you refer a female to work in the sales team. So a simple example, but it's effective and it says, this is what we want to do as a business and we'll pay you for it. Joel: There are a lot of people here at the SHRM National Show, it's a general show. You're getting a lot of people that are in their 20s or just getting started out in the profession. For the listeners out there who are new to referrals, they're just starting to look at companies and solutions. What kind of question should they be asking? What kind of things should they be looking at to justify who they pick to run their programme? Mike: Yeah, yeah, look, I think it's the very first thing is what's your policy look like? And if you're going to work with a vendor like Aaron, can they actually automate every part of your policy? Because the whole point is to eliminate manual work. And by eliminating manual work, you can actually give real time feedback to your employees. So it's not just making your job easier, it's making the experience better for everybody. So eliminating that manual work is key. The second thing is most people approach this from a one size fits all solution. But the reality is, especially if you're a large enterprise, it's like you're going to have hundreds of thousands of locations in multiple countries. And usually the policies are broken down that way. And whether you want to maintain that or not, the reality is some areas, locations, branches, countries, they're going to perform better than others. Mike: And not only does the product need to be able to understand that structure, but it needs to be able to give you analytics 'cause look, tech is tech. You need to know what's working and you need to double down on that. So by getting analytics broken down and saying, hey, it turns out nursing in Manhattan, we're getting through the roof referrals for it. But in Pittsburgh we're getting none, why is that? Maybe it's a manager problem, maybe it's a communication problem. But if you don't have that data point, you can't make that decision. So regardless of how good the tech is, it needs to break down the data in a way that you can ingest that and make decisions. 'Cause it's like you launch this thing six months later, you got to relaunch it, right? You're going to take what's good, double down on it, take what's bad and cut it out. So those are the two big things. Automate the policy completely and then make sure that it's set up to structure the data in a way where you can get intelligence that you don't have today. Joel: And how is your pricing structured and how is it different than maybe some of your competitors? Mike: Yeah, so early on when we launched, we came out, I mean, role point was they were big dogs back in the day. It's fun 'cause immediately we launched and we're competing with the big dogs in the space, a 30 employee company like man. So we went head to head with them. They got bought up on Jobvite, and that kind of cleared the space. There was a bunch of other players in the space, and we actually brought their pricing down because we got so effective so early on, and we were just kind of desperate for sales. I'm not going to lie that it dragged everybody else down to them for them to price match us as our product outplayed theirs. So when that happened, it kind of set the standard. We do it based on number of employees that you have. So whether you're using the product or not, it's how big of a company are you? And part of that is because we have features that are focused on all employees, marketing to them, getting them, onboarding them into the system, processing their eligibility data. Mike: Giving you analytics on it, even if you have, 15% using it. So we base it on your size, we take that into account and then now we have different things that you can add on. We fully white label our product for our enterprise customers. So that's a small extra fee. We don't, we try to say like, we don't make any money on it, but it's more work. So, but it makes adoption easier, right? So something we want, we really encourage our customers to do, but it's essentially how big are you and what features do you want? But the foundation is the size. Joel: So you're saying size matters at ERIN? Mike: You know what, thankfully this is not... Joel: I'll get to the next question. Mike: This Is not the case in college for me, but now size does matter. [laughter] Joel: I'll let you out on this we're hearing the ERIN Booth, we're giving away Chad Cheese T-shirts. The only thing more popular than the Chad and Cheese T-shirt is the Sloth. Mike: Is the Sloth. Joel: Tell me about the Sloth. Mike: Yeah, great, great question. Scrappy young startup. We actually, coming to our first SHRM a couple years ago, they moved it multiple times 'cause of the pandemic. They ended up putting us up front, we had this awesome booth spot and where the question was what are we gonna give away? And my past experience in startups, I'm like, nobody wants your garbage. Like they're gonna throw it out. They throw away the cheap t-shirts. That's why we had to do the higher quality. You wrestled us into the $11 T-shirts instead of the $6 ones. I liked the scratchiness of the $6 ones, but whatever. Joel: Hey, you can have all the beefy tees as well as far as I'm concerned. Mike: But it's like, what are you gonna give away if somebody actually will keep and not like, just throw away? And the real answer to that is something they can give their kids. So we got these sloppy arms sloths people they ate them up, I mean lines around the booth and it just kind of became our thing. So like where the Sloth people now, we have t-shirts with sloths on it and the company culture, like it's really good to anchor early stage startup 'cause look, you're gonna work yourself like 60 hour weeks. Everybody is busting their ass. Anchor the culture in something silly. And it's sloths. Like we have sloth posters in the office. I told you earlier, all our conference rooms or sloth like movies replace with sloths, instead of jaws. It's claws and sloth man prophecies. Joel: Clever. Mike: So and not only that, like our customers really enjoy it as well. So we'll send them care packages. It's crazy how much sloth shit you can buy on Amazon but it's all over office. And it's like we needed a coat hanger and I'd search for sloth coat hangers and they exist, right? So Yeah, it's just anchored in, it was like just an innocent thing. Joel: Was the fact that that sloths are slow put into the equation. Mike: It's just like we came with the name and worked backwards on the acronym. It's like we make your slowest, recruiters fast or slowest. Joel: I like the no pressure, the no stress. Yeah. I get that. Mike: Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll use that one moving forward. Yeah. So anyways, so the sloths mean like no pressure, no stress. Things like that. [laughter] Joel: All right. Good enough. Well Mike, thanks for hosting us here at SHRM. For our listeners that wanna know more about you or the company, where would you send them? Mike: They will go to erinapp.com. E-R-I-N-A-P-P.com. Joel: I can dig it. And we have closed down. The lights are going out. Mike: They got dim. [laughter] Joel: At SHRM. Another one in the can. Thanks for sitting down with with us. We out. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Chase podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way. There's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could've used to buy in nutritious meal at Taco Bell. Enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey. Or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back like an awful train wreck. You can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

Employee retention. Ever heard of it? It’s kind of a big deal. See, employers would rather hold on to the existing crop of workers than have to go back to the well year after year. Ever heard of the gaming industry? Yeah, it’s kind of a big deal too, and hold onto those employees are particularly tricky. Good thing we ran into Madeline Laurano, the founder and chief analyst of Aptitude Research, while we were in Paris at Unleash, because she actually gave a presentation on the topic and decided to hangout with your boys in the Textkernel booth for some knowledge droppin’. TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Oh yeah. What's up everybody? It's Emmanuel Macron's. Favorite podcast, AKA, the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host... Chad: Is that true? Joel: Joel Cheeseman joined as always. The French to my fries, Chad Sowash is in the house and we are recording live from Unleashed World in the Textkernel booth and we are just giddy to welcome. Madeline Laurano, founder and chief analyst at Aptitude Research to the show. Madeline, welcome. Madeline Laurano: Thanks Joel. Thanks Chad. I'm excited to be with you all in person. Chad: Yes. Joel: In person? Chad: She's probably one of the people who can say that she gets the velvet robe for being on the show. Joel: Have you been on Five Times? Madeline Laurano: I think so. But this is my first with you, Joel. Like normally it's just me and Chad. Joel: We really have to do this velvet thing, 'cause we're kind of talking ourselves into it. It's the old SNL. Chad: I think it is. Oh yeah. Joel: Once you've hosted Five Times. Chad: Big Chad, Cheese heads on the back. Madeline Laurano: Oh, I like it. Chad: Velvet. It should be purple I think. Madeline Laurano: I want a T-shirt though. Joel: A nice pipe. Madeline Laurano: I need a T-shirt. Chad: You don't have a T-shirt yet? Madeline Laurano: No. Madeline Laurano: I want a T-shirt. Chad: That's 'cause we don't have extra small, that's why. Joel: Oh what a nice... Madeline Laurano: Oh that's nice. I like that answer. That's like the best answer ever. Joel: Okay, so a lot of our listeners know who you are, some do not, give us a Twitter bio. Tell us about Aptitude Research. Madeline Laurano: Sure. I'm an analyst, so I study HR technology, give opinions and write research reports. So there's a lot of comments. I know you wanna say right now. Joel: She's given that before quite a bit. So you presented here at the show? Madeline Laurano: Yes. Joel: Tell us what you presented, what maybe some of the feedback was. How hot was the topic? Madeline Laurano: I really liked this topic. So it was not me presenting anything. It was me interviewing a company, Ubisoft, which is a big gaming company. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Uber stank? What? [laughter] Madeline Laurano: They have 20,000 employees and they, are using talent intelligence and Eightfold and Skills to be able to retain, that's their issue retention. So it was around retention, but retention in the gaming industry, which is really, really interesting. Chad: Big names like Assassins Creed. Madeline Laurano: Yes. Chad: Far Cry, Tom. Oh my God. They've got some kick ass games. Who would not wanna work for them? Madeline Laurano: So it's, and gaming is very insular. So it's people that get into the gaming industry stay in gaming. And typically before COVID retention wasn't an issue. Like you'd stay with the company because games take three to five years to develop and create. And then you wanna see your name on the credits. Like that's the big thing. Chad: Is that like part of your resume? Madeline Laurano: That's my new resume. Chad: Is it? Okay. Madeline Laurano: And then if you're young and you're coming out and your name is up there and you tell mom and dad and whoever else that you're on this game, It's awesome. Chad: And Gotrude everybody. Madeline Laurano: Yeah, exactly. Everybody. Joel: I was young and coming out at one point. But that's a different podcast. Chad: That was college. Joel: Now acquisitions are a big deal in this space. Madeline Laurano: Yes. Joel: Obviously Microsoft and Activision, is in the headlines quite a bit. Is that from a retention tool? Is that when the rats scatter and go elsewhere? Talk about the acquisition and what that means to poaching. And these people working elsewhere. Madeline Laurano: I think acquisitions change the culture, it's like the company culture changes, people have more opportunities and they look to go elsewhere. For this company, the interesting thing was a lot of times people leave 'cause of compensation, especially if you're young. You're like, you're gonna make more money, you could double your salary. And if you're in your 20s, that's like life changing. So for them it wasn't compensation, it was internal mobility. Chad: Ah, okay. Madeline Laurano: So they wanted to like gamers wanna know they have career development opportunities. Chad: Doesn't everybody though? Madeline Laurano: I think so. I think so. Chad: I think aren't we seeing that more? Madeline Laurano: More and more. Chad: And one of the reasons why attrition is like exploding in many of these big brands. Is because they just don't know where the hell they're gonna go next. Madeline Laurano: They don't know where they're gonna go next and they wanna feel like there's some investment in their careers from their employer. It's so funny 'cause I think about like when I started interviewing at companies when I was in my 20s, I would never have asked that question. Like, what are my... They would ask me that question. Where do you see yourself in three years? You wouldn't ask the employer. And now that's shifted. People are asking that in interviews. Chad: Which is great. Madeline Laurano: It is great. Joel: I think another thing that we didn't have. Coming up in the work world was the option to work from home. And I would think that these are highly intelligent individuals that like working at a computer, and programming and coding. What is the typical outlook at gaming companies when it comes to hybrid, remote all the time? Get your ass back in the office and how is it impacting retention? Madeline Laurano: Oh. This is such a good question 'cause this came up and I would've thought exactly that. I would've thought it's work from home is what they would want. A lot of them might seem like introverts, but they found the productivity was going down so much with a work from home. So the games, the cycle for the games to come out. Was taking and is taking generally longer in this industry, in the gaming industry than it ever has before. And they think they're attributing that to work from home. So hybrid is definitely where they're at finding that balance between letting people have the flexibility but they need people in person collaborating, brainstorming together, face-to-face. Chad: Is that because they're so young at this point? Madeline Laurano: Possibly. Chad: Because at that point, when you've matured, you understand you gotta get shit done or you might not have a job. And you've got a house and kids and all that stuff. But when you're young, you're just kind of flying all over the place and you're not, you really don't have the discipline to work from home. Madeline Laurano: Yes. Chad: So is the demographic for their workforce fairly young? Madeline Laurano: Yeah. Madeline Laurano: It's younger. They definitely have senior roles and they're balancing like how do they balance both? But yeah, I think that that's a big part of the work from home conversation. The other interesting they said about the generational piece is like generative AI can replace so much of what happens in the gaming industry, but they don't wanna replace entry-level roles. And that's what a lot of people are talking about. But they can't do that because you have to grow in this industry for the company. And they have to have the entry level roles. Chad: Your pipeline, your senior pipeline for five years from now. Joel: That's fascinating. I assume that's part of the messaging. That grow your career here, you're not gonna be automated out of a job, and you'll eventually be that person that can't be replaced. That seems like a fantastic recruiting message, [laughter] but I'm sure Ubisoft and everyone else is doing. Any recommendations around that or tips? Chad: I can stick behind it. Yeah. Madeline Laurano: I Know. They're using technology for that internal mobility. So it's basically matching them with opportunities as they continue in their career. Joel: How do you pitch that story to investors? Because they're looking to cut costs, they're looking to be more automated. Madeline Laurano: Yep. Joel: I assume those are diverging viewpoints. How does a company talk to their investors? Madeline Laurano: They are. Yeah. And I think it's enhancing the role instead of replacing it. It's kind of satisfying both. Like telling your investors this makes them do their job better. Productivity is enhanced. Ultimately could the games come out every two years and not three to five years versus we're replacing. But it is, it's balancing what your employees need versus what your investors want to hear. Chad: Is that what we're looking at. Madeline Laurano: I think so. Chad: I think in the near future, in the future is really just the balance. Madeline Laurano: Yeah. Chad: Because you made a big, big point. You can't have senior people on the team if you don't have junior people on the team to be able... And if they don't... If it's not transparent to know what the actual path is to get to the senior positions. And for years there was no transparency. Madeline Laurano: Yeah. Chad: There was no transparency. You weren't sure where you were gonna go and so people were just ejecting. Being an analyst, you see a shit ton of technologies. What technologies are you seeing that are making those pathways more transparent and making it easier for companies to retain? Because we all know attrition costs more to a company. Because obviously the hiring and whatnot. So what are you seeing? What kind of platforms. Madeline Laurano: And it's all industries. Everyone's impacted right now by this attrition conversation. Chad: Exactly. Madeline Laurano: So I think you're gonna love this answer is the skills, the talent intelligence. I do think if you're using... Chad: Did you just say talent intelligence? Madeline Laurano: I did [laughter] I knew I was gonna... Joel: She's leading the witness Chad. Madeline Laurano: I knew I'm leading the witness. But if you're using a skills-based approach, you're seeing the individual for the full picture and the complete picture, not just experiences that you find on a resume. And not just what you find in an employee profile. So everyone's got an opportunity to kind of own their own career. Chad: Looking at those, there are plenty of assessments that are out there. And we've seen so many pseudoscience, there's just so much that's happening and it's so hard for HR and TA to look out there. And every I/O psych person that is on staff or what have you, how do they cut through all of that to find out what is actually working for them? Or say for instance, competitors or other people in the market. How... Where do they go? Where's the bible for that? Madeline Laurano: It's so hard. There was a session recently at a conference where it was Spectrum and they were talking, they had their I/O and their head of talent acquisition who are both amazing and the work that they have done to get insights into that retention piece is incredible. But a lot of it's manual, so they're doing it all on their own and it's mind blowing... Chad: Oh. Madeline Laurano: But if you don't have the expertise on your team, how do you do that work? And I think what we're seeing with a lot of the tech providers now is, you can get those insights, whether it's assessment providers, whether it's talent intelligence platforms to be able to get a better understanding of your workforce without having to do all of it manually. Chad: Well, 'cause you have to... You can't scale that. Madeline Laurano: No. Chad: That's just... Madeline Laurano: And it's constant, you have to consistently stay on top of it. Chad: Yeah. Madeline Laurano: And you just need dedicated roles to do that. It's a lot of work. Chad: So did they do that just because there were so many variables from company to company to company, from client to client to client. And they felt like the only way to do it was manually? Madeline Laurano: Through tech. Or through Spectrum? Chad: Yeah. Madeline Laurano: Yeah. And they have a lot of brands that they were bringing together. And retention's a big issue for them too, so yeah. They were... And they have the skills to do it. They have Laura Fields is their I/O and she's brilliant. You should have her on the podcast. She's really good. Joel: Hey, this is our show. [laughter] We'll decide who's on this show. We'll decide. Get your own podcast. Chad: I'm gonna look her up right now. Madeline Laurano: Yeah. [laughter] Joel: How important is... Google made 20% time popular. They've since gone away from that, from what I understand. But it seems to me like gaming would be prime for free time experiment. Throw stuff at the wall and that leads to greater retention. Talk about that and other companies doing it well. Madeline Laurano: Yeah I think it's such a good point because gaming especially, it's that combination of creativity and tech. Well you don't see that in a lot of other industries. It's like both things. Chad: Yeah. Madeline Laurano: It's really unique skill sets, but it's exactly that. And this didn't come up in the session, but I do wonder how much of that is free playtime on your own, at your own time. Two in the morning, whatever that might be... Chad: That's creative. Yeah. Madeline Laurano: That's creative versus set nine to five work from home conference meeting. And at what point is there burnout with that too? If you're balancing both things. If you're making everyone come to the office in meetings all day nine to six and then they've gotta do creative time at home on their own. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Do we just go back and we've been talking about this hybrid is the answer possibly. But it feels like there's been such a huge push to push everybody back into the office. It's hurting attrition. You've got... It's hurting retention. But it's also hurting something that I don't think we think enough about, the individuals with disabilities... Madeline Laurano: Yes. Chad: Actually have the highest rate of work right now. Madeline Laurano: Yeah. Chad: That hurts that community in a very, very big way. Not to mention it also hurts diversity programs. Madeline Laurano: Absolutely. Chad: So why are we not hearing more about that? Madeline Laurano: I don't know. Chad: Because I think that would almost shatter a lot of these big brands. Saying that it's literally just an attack on their diversity efforts. Madeline Laurano: Absolutely. Even you saw it with the schools too, for a lot of kids that needed some extra support or where diversity, equity, inclusion was part of those school programs. The home environment was actually better for them. And then you're just forcing all the kids back into the school system where it doesn't always work for everyone. And we're doing the same thing in the office. And we're not thinking about that. I don't know if you're seeing this too, but I feel like there's been this trend where we're talking less about diversity, equity, and inclusion... Chad: Oh yes. Madeline Laurano: Than two years ago. And... Chad: Easily. Madeline Laurano: You've got this whole work from home thing happening and this hybrid forcing everyone back into the office and yet we're not talking enough about diversity, equity, and inclusion. Yeah. I think it's such a good point. Why isn't this not a main topic? Joel: We're here at Unleash World, you talk to everybody, company-wise. What companies here are you excited about? What startups are you peaking your interest? And most importantly, can you describe to Chad and I what Eightfold does. Chad: Oh God. Madeline Laurano: We'll start there. Chad: Dude wait. We need a full podcast for that one. I think. Joel: I think Madeline can do it. I think she can break it down for us. Madeline Laurano: I'm going to do a sentence summary. Chad: Okay. Madeline Laurano: And then we can do a follow-up podcast on this. I do love Eightfold. Joel: She wants that jacket, doesn't she? Madeline Laurano: I do want. I want a t-shirt. A Chad Cheese t-shirt. And I'm going to wear an Eightfold sweatshirt with it. Joel: The t-shirt's easy. Just go to chadcheese.com/free... Chad: Yeah. Joel: For your free t-shirt. Madeline Laurano: Oh really? Oh my goodness. I'm gonna do that. Chad: We're going to have to order a special though. Madeline Laurano: So if you have a system of record, like your ATS or whatever that might be, that's collecting data. A talent intelligence platform or a system of intelligence draws insights from that data. It takes the data from the system of record, but it's also feeding the insights back into that system of record. Joel: So I can tell by your voice, you're excited about Eightfold and... Madeline Laurano: I like Eightfold. Yes. Joel: What they're doing. Madeline Laurano: What else? Joel: What are some other companies that you're excited about? Madeline Laurano: Well, I always love Paradox. Every time I hear more Paradox examples, I get excited. I just talked to GM today at this conference. Chad: Yeah. Madeline Laurano: And they had this great example of an interview schedule that they had to do. Chad: Oh yeah. Madeline Laurano: And the candidate was French. And they just had a little blurb in their resume or their profile or whatever it was about how their first language is French. And that recruiter would never pick that up. It was a tiny little thing. Chad: Yeah. Madeline Laurano: But the scheduling tool picked that up and it started to communicate with this candidate in French. And it was such a good feeling for this candidate... Chad: Wow. Madeline Laurano: And so much personalization. So I loved hearing that story today from Cyril George. And I will admit, I have not visited the startup... Chad: Pavilion. Madeline Laurano: Pavilion yet. Joel: Startup Pavilion. Madeline Laurano: And I need to do that. That's what I want to do. That's what I get excited about. And I haven't done that. Joel: Are there any you want to make sure that you touch base with that you know is here? Madeline Laurano: No, what recommendations do you guys have for me? Chad: I say go there in every corner and then just keep your distance 'cause you will get attacked. Madeline Laurano: Okay. Chad: So keep your distance, read the cards and then whatever excites you, then go into those. Be pointed. Madeline Laurano: Okay. Chad: But yeah. Joel: I can tell you, poetry. Madeline Laurano: I have to very care... Oh poetry. Joel: Is the best dressed. Madeline Laurano: I haven't seen adam. Joel: Is the best dressed kiosk that's out there. Madeline Laurano: Adam is always the best dressed of every thing. Joel: The Spider-Man kilt looks pretty traditional. Madeline Laurano: Is he doing that. Chad: And the puffy jacket. Joel: And the puffy, yeah. Madeline Laurano: Oh, I love Adam. I just am excited for poetry. Joel: Lots of good stuff. Lots of good stuff. Madeline Laurano: That's my favorite in the startup Pavilion. Joel: Madeline, thank you for sitting down with us. We know you're a busy, busy woman. For our listeners who want to know more about you or connect, where do you send them? Madeline Laurano: So you can go to aptituderesearch.com. We have lots of free research and no t-shirts, but I wish we did. And I'm on LinkedIn and Twitter and all that fun stuff. Joel: I know a guy for t-shirts if you want to talk later. Madeline Laurano: Oh good yes hook me up. Joel: Chad, that is another one in the can. The velvet jackets are on order. Chad: We out. Outro: Wow, look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Chase podcast, or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back, valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey, or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now, go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

The low standards around child labor laws in America are enough to make anyone think they're taking crazy pills. Shockingly, many states and local governments are going backward when it comes to protecting our most vulnerable, particularly in agriculture. That's why we invited Reid Maki, Child Labor Advocacy Director at the National Consumers League and Child Labor Coalition on the podcast. It's a sobering discussion on the state of working kids and immigration failures throughout the country and its heartland. It's also discussion, however, about how change can happen for the betterment of everyone. We are failing our kids and it's high time we make a change. Knowing is the first step. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts, complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel Cheesman: Oh, yeah. It's your starting quarterback's favorite podcast, AKA the Chad and Cheese podcast. I am Joel Cheesman, your cohost, joined as always, the Taylor to my Travis, Chad Sowash is in the building, and we are just excited, so welcome Reid Maki. [applause] Joel Cheesman: Child Labor Advocacy Director at the National Consumers League and Child Labor Coalition. I bet that works really well with the girls at the club. Doesn't it? Reid Maki: They look confused when they hear that. Joel Cheesman: We look confused, although we always look confused, so don't take it personally. Reid, a lot of our listeners don't know who you are. Give us a Twitter bio of what makes Reid Maki tick. Reid Maki: Well, I've been working on these issues for about 30 years. I started with a farmworker organization in DC. I went to school in California for a long time, probably longer than I should have, and I'm playing ice hockey at a very advanced age and I like to sail in the Chesapeake Bay and go to movies and hang out with friends. Joel Cheesman: This is audio. Advanced age could be a lot of different ages. Do you care to share your age? Reid Maki: I'm 65 years old. Joel Cheesman: Wow! Reid Maki: And I'm not..., and I'm not the oldest member of one of my teams, so. Joel Cheesman: Rocking the ice at 60. Wow. Chad Sowash: And we're talking about low to no contact. Right? Joel Cheesman: Are you Canadian? Like what historically did you play in college? Reid Maki: I grew up in Massachusetts watching Bob, a guy named Bobby Orr play. It is low contact but we have incidental contact that can be pretty violent. Chad Sowash: No hip checks. No hip checks. Reid Maki: Exactly. Joel Cheesman: Is there a doctor onsite just in case there is a hip check? Reid Maki: Well, we have a lot of professionals on our teams, so there's probably a doctor on a couple of my teams. Joel Cheesman: Listen to the humble brag. There's some professionals that show up. In their 50s. Chad Sowash: We gotta keep it tight. We gotta keep it tight at 65. Okay. Okay, Reid. We're gonna dive right into this, my friend. The topic of rolling back child labor laws has come up a lot. Right? So states like Minnesota, Missouri, Ohio, Iowa, Wisconsin, and more are trying to roll back child labor laws, and these state politicians say it's because of labor shortages, which have impacted industries like meat packing and construction. So how did we get here? Can we start at the beginning? Why did we enact child labor laws in the 1930s in the first place? So okay, let's start there. Reid Maki: Yeah. I think that... You know what? It was an understanding back then that children are special, the phase of their life is developmental and they need nurturing and they need to be educated and learn things. And in the early 1900s, the country had rampant child labor in all kinds of awful spots like coal mines and factories, and kids were working 10, 12 hours a day and getting mangled in equipment and getting killed in coal mines and just all kinds of horrible situations. We were losing like thousands of kids and adults. I think back then, we were losing 5000 workers a year. Joel Cheesman: The good old days. Reid Maki: Yeah, and well, then the Fair Labor Standards Act came along and it eliminated most forms of child labor in the US. It has a glaring exemption for kids who work on farms. And that's a big concern for us because we see a lot of migrant children being exploited, kids who are only 12 years old, they're allowed to work on limited hours on farms as long as they're not missing school. So we see kids in the summer working like 80-90 hour weeks, and it's backbreaking labor. Chad Sowash: Well, how in the hell can you do that and go to school at the same time? Because I go looking back and why we started it to your first point, education. Right? Our kids are our future and we want to be able to educate them to be able to obviously take over one day, not just at the farm, right? To build rockets, to be able to do some really cool shit. So when it comes to education, how can kids work even 40 hours a week, let alone 90, and still be educated? Reid Maki: Well, yeah. During the school year, we see the migrant kids, they're required to go to school. The truancy laws are pretty good, but sometimes they'll work before they go to school. Sometimes, as soon as school's out, they go back to the fields, putting in pretty long hours. And this is actually a problem that we're quite aware of now because kids have moved into meat packing, which is an illegal form of child labor. And they came out of a DOL investigation earlier this year. The kids were working the night shift in a meat packing plant, cleaning it, and then they were going to school. And of course, they were falling asleep. You would expect that. So we don't wanna see kids sacrificing their future for a few years of income when they're teenagers. And we know they're from desperately poor families and they need money and we're okay with them having a job, a part-time job, but we don't wanna see them working a night shift in a meat packing factory for sure. Chad Sowash: Well, you're talking about... We're talking about poor families here. Right? You're not gonna see a bunch of rich kids working in meat packing. Joel Cheesman: Is that code for "immigrants," by the way. Chad Sowash: I would say somewhat. I would say there's probably a mix, but there are a lot of immigrants, correct. Reid Maki: Yeah. In the meat packing situation, we're actually seeing a lot of unaccompanied minors who are kids that come over with no close relatives. And there's been a surge in that population in the last four years. And that's one of the reasons why we're seeing all of these stories about child labor in factories and meat processing plants. The kids are completely vulnerable. They are here with maybe a distant relative or a family friend, and they've really got nobody watching closely over them. And they're desperate for money. They've left behind family in Central America or Mexico who are in desperate poverty. They'll take anything basically, and these jobs are illegal and they're horrible for kids. I mean they're not too great for adults. But yeah, it's how they're ending up there. To the point of, yes, the unemployment rate is quite low and there are labor shortages, but we really can't balance a labor shortage on the backs of some of our most vulnerable workers who are teenagers, and especially putting them into dangerous situations. That's just not something we can do as a society. Chad Sowash: Well, I mean the basic economics around this is, today the average meat packing salary in Iowa is less than $25,000 a year. Why so low? Reuters reported that Tyson Foods, Global Foods, JBS, National Beef Packing Company, and Seaboard Corporation financial statements showed a 120% collective jump in their gross profit since the pandemic and a 500% increase in net income. So these companies recently announced a billion dollars in new dividends and stock buybacks, and on the top of that, these companies paid more than 3 billion to shareholders since the pandemic has actually begun. So these companies have the money to invest in higher wages to draw in more workers and even invest in automation, so why are we even having this conversation? Reid Maki: Yeah. I think you're absolutely right. If you're having trouble attracting adults to do your work, you have to raise wages, you have to make conditions better and raise wages. It's a pretty simple formula. You don't hire 13-year-olds to work the graveyard shift using caustic chemicals. And by the way, the only way this scandal came out was that one of the kids was in a classroom and a teacher noticed they had chemical burns and said, "What happened?" And then the kids told them. And that teacher didn't do what so many people do, which is nothing. That teacher called USDOL and reported it. Reid Maki: And that launched an investigation that found basically that this was happening in 13 facilities around the country, in eight states. And kids were getting hurt. There was a recent article in the New York Times, there's been a few exposes in the New York Times about this this year. And they profiled this one kid, Marcos, who when he was 14 got his arm caught in chicken-processing plant equipment, basically almost tore off his arm, and he was bleeding out, they thought. His coworkers looked at him and said, "He's gonna die." They called 911. And when the 911 operator kept asking them, How old is the person who's hurt? They got so flustered, they hung up on 911. Somehow, the kid survived, but he has a useless arm right now with a mangled... With a hand that's in a claw. The arm can't be used. And I mean it just goes to show you what's really at stake in some of these jobs, that there can be like horrific, traumatic accidents. Joel Cheesman: Yeah. Reid, I wanna preface this by saying it'll be the most important question that I ask you. Chad Sowash: Oh, God. Joel Cheesman: Is that Ava Longoria in your LinkedIn profile picture? Reid Maki: Yes. I was in a... I had the pleasure of being in a press conference with Ava Longoria once, about 12 years ago. Joel Cheesman: And kudos to you for humbly putting her in your profile picture. Chad Sowash: Keep that around my friend. Yes. Joel Cheesman: Yeah. Keep that one around. It's probably an 8 x 10 in your office. Help me understand. So my family is... I have a bunch of farmers in my family. I'm not one of them. And there was a time where this stuff made sense. People had eight to 12 kids, it was free labor. I remember my 13-year-old cousins driving around John Deere tractors that they probably shouldn't have been, but they were. That's why it was legal. And when you said, Agriculture was exempt for some of these laws... But people are having less kids now, it seems like these laws are being bastardized to include immigrants, illegal immigrants, kids that aren't family. Oddly, to me, states are now rolling back age limits on farms. Help me understand politically, commercially why all this is happening or how it's happened. Reid Maki: So there has been an exemption for children working on their parents' farm, and that goes back to the beginning of time, basically. And that's something that US law, follows. Our work is focused on kids, like migrant kids who are working for wages and these basic exemptions that allow them to work as early as 12. And we actually see kids working before that 'cause there are exemptions on top of exemptions, and there's a thing called the Small Farm Exemption. So even if they're working for wages and it's not their parents' farm, but it's somebody else's farm, if it's a really small farm, then there's no rules that apply. And you can see an eight-year-old or a five-year-old picking berries or... A lot of the work is hand-harvesting fruits and vegetables..., and another loophole is that in the US, if you work, you have to be 18 to do work that we know is hazardous, but on farms, which is actually one of the most dangerous sectors, and it accounts for more than half of the deaths of children, of child workers, even though only about 3% of child workers are children working in agriculture. So that's how dangerous it is, so. Chad Sowash: Wait a minute, wait a minute. 3% of the overall, and 50% of the injuries and deaths? Reid Maki: Yes, 50% fatalities are on farms. It's quite... It's really dangerous that you're with a lot of... I mean I just told you that the farm kids are not covered by these protections, but in some ways, they're the most vulnerable because they use the most machinery, and they're the ones who have the most traumatic injuries. But the migrant kids, they use razor-sharp scissors and implements and it's a lot of musculoskeletal issues. And a lot of pesticides. We see a lot of cancer in farmworker families, and the kids don't really know the risks that they're engaged in. We also see kids working on tobacco farms. You're legally allowed to work on a tobacco farm at age 12. You can't buy cigarettes in the US until you're 21. That changed a couple years ago. You have to be 21. But we will put a kid in the field, and the kids get the nicotine residue on their skin. It absorbs. So they wear black plastic garbage bags. They punch a hole for their head and their arms. And that's to try to diminish the amount of nicotine absorbing into their skin. But tobacco states, the main tobacco states like Virginia and Kentucky, Tennessee, North Carolina, they're very hot in the summer. So you have a kid... You have a kid, maybe 12 or 13, wearing a black plastic garbage bag in 100 degree heat. And it's hard, it's very hard work, the plants go over their heads. So yeah, it's just like a... It's kind of a Dickensian world out there for child labor. It's not benign. Joel Cheesman: And by the way, if you're working at night, going to school all day, sleep deprivation tends to add to the dangers of working in these areas. I'm wondering, Reid, if you had a magic wand, how would you fix this? Would you change the laws? Would you change the tax structure? Would you change immigration? All the above. If you had a magic wand, how would you fix this? Reid Maki: I know it's very controversial, but I do think immigration reform is probably part of this because the adults are having trouble getting into the country, and the kids, because of immigration rules, have been able to get in. I wouldn't change that. I mean I think that they deserve to have their asylum looked at. But if you need adult workers and Americans won't do some of these jobs, then having a supply of adult workers coming in makes sense. I think we need much better enforcement of the laws 'cause the laws are pretty good for like the factories and the meat packing facilities, but there's only 800 federal inspectors at USDOL. For a country of our size, it comes out to 200,000 workers per inspector. And that's a lot of workplaces. I think it's like 11,000 workplaces per inspector on average. Joel Cheesman: Wow. Chad Sowash: So how do we amp that up? How can the United States government amp that up and actually have more people to identify when things are going wrong, as opposed to that very small cohort of enforcement agents? Reid Maki: Yeah. The main thing is to get an appropriations level that's substantially higher. Joel Cheesman: Which is really gonna be easy. That'll be easy to do. Reid Maki: There's no problem in congress right now. Right? But to his credit, Joe Biden has recognized that there's a crisis going on here that needs to be addressed, and so in his supplemental funding request that came out a few weeks ago. Along with some disaster aid for hurricanes and things like that, he included $100 million of additional money for USDOL, enforcement of child labor. Now, that has to get through congress still, so chances are it might not, but it would be a great start. It would be a great start at hiring those additional inspectors. One of the things that they are doing though is... We have a lot of meat inspectors, food inspectors in factories. They are being trained now to look for child labor because there were inspectors that were seeing very young children in these plants and knew they shouldn't be there, but said, "Oh, it's not my job to look at that." And so they did nothing. But now they're being empowered to actually do something, make the calls, bring in the DOL inspectors to deal with it. Chad Sowash: So being able to amp up and get more eyes. I mean, these are people that are in these facilities anyway, so to be able to give them the opportunity just to identify if there are other problems. Right? Reid Maki: Yeah. Yeah. It makes total sense. And some of the other things that we really need, we need higher fines. Chad Sowash: There we go. Joel Cheesman: Orange jumpsuits. CEO of Tyson Chicken in a jumpsuit. That might fix it. Chad Sowash: Yeah. [laughter] Reid Maki: When the meat packing scandal broke, basic DOL found the supplier of these cleaning crews, that these all-night cleaning crews hired so many children. That company was called PSSI. And they were fined $1.5 million. Now, that company has annual revenue of something like 450 million. So they were fined basically like one day of revenue, which is not enough. It's not enough to really cause much fear. And so the other thing is that... And DOL recognizes this, they realize that they have to hold accountable the companies that benefit. So the companies hire the staffing firms and the staffing firms don't have enough due diligence, and enough to look at the IDs and say, "This is fake," or, "This kid looks 12 and he's saying he's 34." So we need to hold the JBS' and the Tysons and the Purdues accountable. DOL said it will do that moving forward, but when it announced the results of their investigation in February, they didn't do it then. So so far, none of these giant companies have been held accountable, except for reputational damage. Chad Sowash: Let's talk about the... There are 16-year-old kids that are dying. A boy from Guatemala who was just killed at a job at a slaughterhouse in Mississippi, as reported by the New York Times. Two other 16-year-olds died on the job in the US this year, one while working in a sawmill in Wisconsin, while attempting to unjam a wood-stacking machine, he was pinned up and crushed. Then another 16-year-old died in Missouri while working at a landfill. And pretty much the same thing happened. He was caught between... He was pinned between a tractor trailer and rig itself. So we're actually seeing deaths, but we've got these little-bitty fines and we don't have CEOs in orange jumpsuits. The enforcement agents, they've gotta feel like they're doing nothing every single day other than looking for spare coins in the corporate couches, for goodness sakes. How can we... Do we need to stiffen the laws? Number one. Number two. Is the answer just stripping the states' rights away from this and just putting in a federal mandate? The states can have all the rights that they want, but they have to... They have to at least meet the federal mandate. Do we put a federal mandate out there that makes us not back in the 1930s? Reid Maki: Yeah. Well, and this is the context. You described it really well. This is the context through which states are trying to weaken the laws. Chad Sowash: Yes. Reid Maki: But there's an understanding... I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that if there's a protection at the federal level and at the state level and they conflict, whichever is more protective is what is supposed to have weight. And that's getting lost in all of this discussion, as the states are weakening protections and extending the hours that kids can work. That's getting lost because basically they're in violation of the more protective federal law, which is pretty good. The federal law says that kids can't... Except for agriculture, federal law, when it comes to like meat packing, says, "Kids can't do it." When there's a conflict and the federal law's supposed to take weight. But that's not being recognized by the people in the states that are enacting these laws, so there's a lot of confusion for employers. They're gonna think that they can... Like in Iowa, the federal law says that... The federal law says that kids can work three hours on a school night. Well, Iowa has just changed that to six hours on a school night, so every employer in Iowa is gonna think he can do that, but technically, they're in violation of the law and could get a serious fine from USDOL. So there's all kinds of rampant confusion that needs to be cleared up. And I agree with you, we should adhere to the... There should be a general recognition even with the public and business community that we have to adhere to the federal standards. Chad Sowash: Well, it's interesting 'cause there is a dynamic here. Right? Most of these states, if not all of them, are pretty much conservative-driven, so they're on the Republican side of the house. And Republicans are always looking for smaller government, which is really a code word for "less enforcement." I mean we get to do whatever the hell we want no matter what the laws are. And we're starting to see those rollbacks. I mean it seems like a code for being able to, again, operate within my own means, let alone having to worry about state or federal government. Reid Maki: It's not universally true. Like New Jersey last year did extend hours for teen workers, and they had a Democratic governor, but for the most part, it has been in conservative states. And it's really concerning. And there was some recent reporting, maybe two months ago in the Washington Post, that found that there is a conservative think tank in Florida behind some of these state laws. They're actually drafting the legislation and handing it off to conservative legislators. Chad Sowash: Is that AlEC? Reid Maki: It's not AlEC, but it's called the Foundation of Government Accountability, which sounds like an innocuous name, but it's not an innocuous group. And there's some concern that they're basically trying to undermine labor rights of the most lowest level workers of the bottom tier, including teenage workers. And they have a cadre of like a hundred lobbyists to help them enact these loosening of protections. And I think it's shameful. Apparently, they're financed by a right-wing billionaire, who's a privileged member of society. And they're going to great lengths to weaken protections for people at the bottom. Chad Sowash: Wouldn't happen to be a Tyson. Would he? Reid Maki: I don't think so. Chad Sowash: Okay. Joel Cheesman: I asked about your magic wand, Reid, and two of the things that I thought you might mention, but you didn't, I want to get your take on them. One is automation, and the other is increasing the minimum wage. What impact would you see having that on this issue? Reid Maki: Yeah. I think minimum wage is a big thing. One of the problems with agriculture is that the kids who harvest fruits and vegetables work under a system called the piece rate, which is basically the more buckets they fill, the more the family gets paid. And if those kids all got the minimum wage rather than the piece rate, then I think we'd see some of the younger kids... Like I've met nine and 10-year-olds in the field, some of those kids would not be hired if they were... If they were being paid the minimum wage because they're getting paid a subminimum wage. And the piece rate is an inhuman form of work incentive, it's basically... Joel Cheesman: Slave labor, to some extent. Reid Maki: Yeah. It's asking people to work at the limits of their capacity for like long periods of time. It doesn't make sense. Yeah. And as far as automation, I do think that that will happen eventually in agriculture. It may take 20 or 30 years, but the attempts to automate fruit and vegetable harvesting have usually fallen short because the fruits and vegetables are so easily bruised, and so you need a robot, a robotic machine, basically, that has incredible delicacy. And they're making advancements all the time. I think that they will get there. In two or three decades, we'll see it pretty much all over the country, I think. But for now we've got all these... We've got hundreds of thousands of kids working with their parents, 12-hour days. It's just not right. Joel Cheesman: And I want to get your take, this is some news outta California, I think, this week. A new bill signed on will require schools to teach students about child labor, workplace safety, and rights to organize. Thoughts on that? I don't see it happening in Texas, but is this something that may happen? I mean unions are having a moment, dare I say kids could unionize and make changes, or their parents. Where do you see this going? Reid Maki: Yeah I think this is a good idea because I think that the young people don't have really any... Hardly any knowledge of the workers' struggles in the country over time. I do think where unions exist, we don't tend to see child labor, like a first thing a shop steward would... If he saw a kid working on a processing plant, he would file a grievance, he would blow the whistle. So I do think that unionization could play a pretty nice role in this. And in some of the meat packing, basically what was happening is JBS agreed to unionize some of those cleaning crews, and that's the outcome. That's the outcome we'd wanna see, like higher wages, adult workers. So I do think this is a great idea. Chad Sowash: So how does that actually have to happen though, Reid? I mean do they have to organize within or is there a body right now, a unionizing body of poultry workers, meat packers, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, that would actually go into these organizations to be able to push? Because as Joel had said, the unions are getting their mojo back. We've seen so much went from UPS, SAG AFTRA, with UAW. I mean there's a nice push. Right? 75,000 Kaiser Permanente workers walked off the job. That's historic. How do we start to push more for these unions in these different workplaces? How does that happen? Reid Maki: I mean there's a recognition by... I think JBS realized that their reputation was at stake. They've had a lot of reputational issues in the past and they were looking really, really badly, and so they said like, "This is a way to fix this." I think UFCW, I believe, is talking with them about how to bring about the actual unionization of these workers. I think we just need more pressure. Consumers have to exert more pressure, that these workers need to be paid better and should have access to unions. Chad Sowash: That's hard. Joel Cheesman: So a lot of people listening are saying, "This is horrible, this is awful, but what the hell can I do? I'm just one person in my daily life." Reid, you mentioned more consumer pressure, but against who? What industries should people be writing checks? To nonprofits that are fighting this? Should they be writing their congress person? Like what can the average person do listening right now to make a change? Reid Maki: All of those things? Yeah, I think they... In congress right now, there are at least four bills that would increase child labor fines. And they can write to their member of congress and say, "Hey, I learned about child labor, fines need to be increased. Let's provide more money through appropriations for enforcement agents and let's raise fines." Then their member can then cosponsor those bills. Once they get enough cosponsors, then leadership sees them as viable bills, and then has a chance to pass. So yeah. And I think... I mean if people like to write letters, I think writing a letter to the presidents of Tysons and JBS and Purdue and all of these meatpacking, then... That does seem to be a sector that has been particularly hard-hit. Last year, we saw that they were funding kids and suppliers to Hyundai. I mean Hyundai did seem to take the situation seriously. But yeah, writing letters to corporations and saying, "I'm a consumer, consumer. I buy your product. I'd like to think that you're producing unethically, let's fix this." Joel Cheesman: Is there any documentation of like what politicians, what members of congress are fighting for this issue? If people do wanna write a check or get behind a candidate, is there something that they can go to for that? Chad Sowash: Like on your website or... Have you guys published anything? Reid Maki: We have a fact sheet that lists the bills, and with a click, a link to congress.gov, where you can see like who introduced the bills. There is a brand new... This is something that hadn't existed before. It's a child labor prevention task force in congress, so it's congressional members. The leadership on that seems to be Dale Kildee in Michigan and Representative Shelton, also from Michigan but there are half a dozen members or so of congress that are on that, on that task force. There are a number of members of congress, especially on like the agriculture side. We've had bills for two decades that haven't really moved, but they could move and they need our... They need the support of the public as well. Chad Sowash: Yeah. Well, Reed, we appreciate you taking time out of the day to talk to us about this incredibly, incredibly important subject. If you would, if you could, can you tell our listeners where they can find out more about you, about this cause? And then also, how can they connect with you? Reid Maki: Yeah, so you can visit stopchildlabor.org, which is our website. Learn about the Child Labor Coalition, 35 great groups that come together to fight, to reduce child labor. If somebody wants to send me an email, they can email me at reidm@nclnet.org. Joel Cheesman: I'm gonna make a TikTok chat and I'm writing a tweet to Elon Musk, that'll fix this whole thing. It's gonna happen. Reid, thanks for joining us. Reid Maki: Sure. Joel Cheesman: Chad, that's another one in the can. I feel smarter, but I wanna jump off a ledge right now. Anyway, another one in the can. Thanks for your time, Reid. And we out. Chad Sowash: We out. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast. Oh, maybe you cheated and fast-forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back, valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey, or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

When asked why he robbed banks, Willie Sutton simply replied, “Because that's where the money is.” The same might be said for JobIndex's lawsuit against Google for copyright infringement, claiming the world's most popular search engine is taking their content and publishing it to Google for Jobs without permission. Anyway, the boys dig into this claim and voices, tempers and hilarious soundbites commence. But wait, that's not all. They also dig into cover letters and why AI either does or doesn't make a bit of difference. (Spoiler alert: There's a story about a perfume-drenched CV.) Then ending on a high note, it's Who'd Ya' Rather with CareerFairy and Mintago. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: Oh yeah. No, Parisian bedbugs were harmed in the making of this episode. This is the Chad and Cheese podcast does Europe. I'm your co-host, Joel "Infestation" Cheeseman. Chad: Chad "FlipDog" Sowash. Lieven: I'm Lieven "Teaching AI to the HR masses" Van Nieuwenhuyze. Joel: And on this episode, more Jobindex drama, who'd you rather and a tasty Marmite sandwich. Hey, it's gotta be better than Surströmming, right? Chad: Oh God. Joel: Let's do this. Chad: Anything's better than Surströmming. Joel: [laughter] Oh, God. Oh, bedbugs and Surströmming. We just lost about 80% of the listeners. Chad: Oh yeah. [laughter] Joel: By the way, YouTube's Surströmming, if you don't know what it is, it's worth it. Chad: It is. It's worth the laugh and the gag reflexes that everybody has. Anyway, anyway. Joel: Oh, all the videos are like, they take someone from another country and they feed them stuff from other countries. And then they get their take on it even or if it's like, Irish taste bourbon for the first time and then they give their take on bourbon as opposed to Jameson. Always entertaining. Chad: Always. Always entertaining. Joel: So the world noted a new war since we last spoke. It will be advanced a little bit when people hear this, but over the weekend when watching the news, I think everybody, Israel declared war on Hamas. Now we have a 20 year war veteran, or not war but Army veteran on the show. And we have a European on the show, most of which Americans don't have access to. So I'm just curious, any thoughts on the impending conflict in the Middle East with Israel and Hamas? Make a noise. Chad: That, did you feel anything this weekend at all, Lieven? Lieven: I think the biggest impact will be the way people look at the conflict between Israel and Palestine. I know America is very supportive to Israel, but in Europe, people kind of felt sorry for those poor Palestinian people in Gaza. And they, many people thought Israel was being very harsh on them and they shouldn't be. But now, sentiments has changed, have changed. So I feel, after looking at those terrible images from people shooting, mass shooting dancing youngsters on a festival, this kind of terror is, there's no reason good enough to do something like that. So I think, from now on, Israel has a lot more support here in Europe also. And of course, in Belgium, where I live, there's a very big Jewish community. Antwerp, I'm not sure if you know it, but it's one of the biggest I think, in Europe, live in Antwerp. Germany also have them everywhere. Chad: They're also being supplied by somebody because they don't manufacture any of that themselves. Obviously, there's always been huge conflict between Iran and Israel. So that this is something that could spin out of control. Let's hope it doesn't. I mean, we already have enough with Ukraine trying to drive its own sovereignty, for God's sakes against Russia. The last thing the world needs is another war. Outro: Shout out. Joel: All right. Well, I'll take a little more time to focus on a shout out to our Israeli brethren in the industry, although it's not technically Europe, they do business in Europe. They do business in the US and these are people that frankly, we count as personal friends. So a lot of companies do business out of Israel. Hi, Bob. We talk about a lot. We'll see them at conferences coming up. TaTiO, Chad I know you mentioned you're close with them. ZipRecruiter has a strong AI office over in Israel. Spetz, who was acquired by Paradox, Wilco, who we've interviewed for Firing Squad. Veritone got executives over there, we're close to them. A company called Perfect and Team Me. So there are a lot of businesses and organizations and frankly, just people that we touch that I wanted to focus a light on. I hope stay safe. I hope you're well, your families are well. And hopefully we'll see you soon and things will calm down and we will find peace. We'll see. But shout out to them. Joel: Can only hope. Lieven? Lieven: My shout out goes to the European AI Act. 'Cause as you probably know, the European Parliament came up with a proposal for the first global version of a comprehensive law on the use of AI. And they are negotiating details with a bunch of countries Europe has, and with a bit of luck, they'll reach an agreement by the end of this year. And they defined three different risk levels on the use of AI, usage of AI. It's like, the unacceptable risk, the high risk and the limited risk, and I'm very happy to tell you that so far the use of AI in employment and worker management is only considered a high, but it's not a totally unacceptable risk. So we're still in the game. Chad: We're still in the game. Joel: Still in the game everybody. Chad: It's not psychological warfare, which is obviously much above a high, the unacceptable risk. What is incredibly psychological, in a very good way, is the 2030 Football World Cup has been announced. That's right kids, get ready. It's going to be in Portugal, Spain and Morocco, who will be hosting. And I have from news reports out of Portugal that the Benfica, Sporting and Porto FC stadiums are going to be used for the World Cup. So 2030 baby, can't wait. Coming to my hometown. Joel: That's right. Who wants to sponsor Chad and Cheese World Cup adventure from Portugal where we're taking bids now everybody, we're taking. Taking bids. Chad: A little early, but it's okay. You can you can still go ahead and lock it in. Joel: Do we want to talk about travel? Chad: Yeah, we've got TAtech happening in early December, that's in London. I'm gonna be MCing the stage with Kirstie Kelly so the TAtech Europe events, which I believe is like two and a half days long. So check it out, go to tatech.org. You can register there. You can go to chadcheese.com/events. Not to mention yes, it's next year but still pretty excited to go to Amsterdam to see... Joel: Yes sir. Chad: To see Lieven and crew. And Rika. Hell, we haven't seen her in forever. SFX: All right, all right, all right. Joel: Love House of HR. Chad: E-recruitment converse, baby. Lieven: Yeah, March 19th next year. Counting the days. Chad: Put it on your calendars. Go to chadcheese.com/events and register register register. Joel: See you there. Topics. All right guys. So last time we recorded, Jobindex, a job site based out of Denmark was suing Google for copyright infringement for taking their content and publishing it to Google for Jobs. The CEO has been corresponding with Chad on some of the details. So let's dig into what Chad found out, if anything. Chad: So first and foremost, I definitely like to thank Kaare, is that how you say his first name? Is it Kaare? Joel: Kaare or Kaare. Chad: K-A-A-R-E Kaare Danielsen. Joel: Mr. Danielsen, how about that. Chad: Kaare Danielsen. Yes, founder and CEO of Jobindex for the correspondence of the past couple of weeks. He provided us with a document that laid out his talking points around the lawsuit with Google and it's Google for Jobs product. Kaare states "Jobindex has asked not to be a part of Google for Jobs and we do not give any of our content to Google. Nevertheless, Google still copies a lot of the job adverts from Jobindex through some of their partners." So now as you dig deeper, you find out in fact, Google is not scraping Jobindex's jobs. Rather, other job boards like JobGrab from Singapore and jobdanmark.dk from Albania are scraping those jobs and having job seekers directly apply to their sites instead of Jobindex. Chad: So this isn't Google scraping Jobindex as they would have you believe. In effect, Jobindex is suing the wrong company and/or companies. So JobGrab and JobDanmark are stealing the Jobindex content and passing it to Google to drive more traffic to themselves. This is an old trick by the way, kids. This has been happening for a very long time. Jobindex is really in a bind from the standpoint is that they can't shut off the scrapers from Google. Why? Because Google owns over 93% of the job search market in Denmark. If they did that, they'd be committing traffic suicide at that point and then Kaare provided the document that tells the real tale, I think. And and he writes, "For Jobindex, this means increased advertising costs since the organic traffic from Google has dropped 20%." Chad: So he's specifically citing that they're paying for Google search engine marketing on one hand and they're denying free traffic from Google for Jobs on the other hand so do you want traffic from Google or not? Remember? I started out the statement from Kaare with a "Jobindex has not... Has asked not to be a part of Google for Jobs and we do not give any of our content to Google." Now, Google for Jobs is a product of Google, but you still are providing access for Google to index your jobs. You need and you want that and you're actually talking about having to pay more to Google for search engine marketing, right? Chad: So do you want the traffic or not? I mean, that's as you take a look at it, it is so contradictory and I reached out to a couple of people who are in the search market and this is all I heard. It's a PR stunt. They want to be able to go after a big name and they want to escalate their brand in the EU and you know, going after Google right now is is kind of you know a trend in the EU, so why not. Joel: Lieven, you have a bit of a counterpoint on this? Lieven: Right, at this time, I don't really totally agree. I looked into what Kaare was writing and he said writing a job advert takes on average five to seven hours, thus this is a piece of high-quality writing that has required a lot of work and should be subject to copyright. First, if you spend five to seven hours on writing a job advertisement, you should be or fired or nominated for a Nobel Prize on literature. But anyways, this is irrelevant. If Jobindex doesn't want to get listed in Google for Jobs, that's their decision. Whatever the reason they don't want to get listed and if Google is listing Jobindex's vacancies without their consent, then Jobindex definitely has a case and they're right. There is IP, intellectual property on vacancies also, why not? They have handwritten them, so to speak, so there's an IP on it. And if they take the copy from and with they I mean Google, if Google takes the copy from obscure scraping sites without checking if there is an IP infringement... Lieven: That's Google's problem. That's not Jobindex's problem/ Jobindex shouldn't be proving that their vacancies were or shouldn't be complaining that their vacancies are taken by Google. Google just shouldn't take them. And by the way, scraping is more or less legal, call it a gray zone. But scraping of commercial databases and spreading the content is a very very black zone in Europe and this is actually what Google is doing right now. They are scraping commercial databases and use it for their own commercial profit and this is definitely a black zone and there Google is wrong even though they claim we don't scrape directly, we do it through a intermediates. Lieven: Solution. They should be checking if they are not spreading content which should be IP protected. And they don't, so they're wrong. And I think they have a case. And I think Jobindex could make lots of money out of this. SFX: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Joel: Okay, let's dig into the psyche of this guy a little bit. I don't know him, but from the interview that I had with him, he's very adamant about, we've been doing this for 27 years. We were doing this before Google. The only competitors in Denmark are us, LinkedIn, and the government site. So, it sounds to me like for 20 some years, this dude has had green pasture to probably charge as much as he wants for his job postings. He hasn't had to deal with outside interference. He's not a big market where, Monster, Indeed are probably a big deal. And along comes Google, who by the way, I'm sure he was enjoying some free traffic and continues to enjoy free traffic from Google. And then they launched this Jobs thing. And then he starts seeing a bite come out of his traffic, which he admitted on the interview. He says, "I don't care about Google." But then he goes on to say, "I've had a 20% drop in traffic since Google for Jobs." So what is it? Chad: And I'm having to pay more for it. Joel: Either you don't care or you do care. I'm guessing he cares. And this 20% means he has to lay off people. He can't charge as much. And in fact, if you look at some of their LinkedIn data, their company data, they've slashed sales headcount, some design workers and HR to the tune of about 5%. And I'm sure that he's saying that that could be a lot bigger if this trend continues. Lieven: He might even have to sell us his third boat. [laughter] If he has been in this business for 27 years, he's been making a lot of money. Joel: Let's agree he's not a 20-something startup guy. If he's been doing this for 27 years, he's probably looking to get out. He's probably got some lawyer friends that he had lunch with and said, "Hey, this whole Google thing, they're pissing me off." And they said, "Look, Europe hates Google. Google wants this stuff to go away. I think we can get them to write a check for whatever just to make this go away." So the guy says, "Sweet. I got some friends down at the Danish media group. Why don't I get them involved? So there's like a big name. And then we really scare the shit out of Google. We all make a nice little sum of money." Look, he can shut off Google. You look at his robots text. There's nothing there. There's no strategy around do not index our site, Google, which is super easy to do. And he's saying that these sites, these foreign sites... Chad: Singapore and Albania. Joel: Yeah. Taking his shit, making it their own, and then they're loading that shit up into Google for Jobs. But there's no... There's clearly no strategy around how do I block these countries and or these sites from scraping our site? Look, there are clear ways technologically to take sites that are taking your stuff and restrict them, redirect them somewhere else, make it difficult. And granted, look, these sites are scraping everybody. If Jobindex turned off tomorrow, I'm sure they could give a shit. What is it? A couple thousand jobs, maybe. I don't know. But they probably wouldn't even notice. But there's no effort to, like, restrict these companies and these sites and countries from visiting their site. So he could clearly, from a technology standpoint. Joel: And by the way, they have 538 employees, according to LinkedIn. They must have some tech people in that company that know how to do this shit. This is not a two-person mom and pop they're at their residence running this site. This is a real business. And they have people that should be able to restrict these spiders from getting their stuff. If they want to cut off Google, they can. They obviously don't. They just want a payday. They want some PR. This guy probably wants to retire. He probably wants a big check from Google. And then he can maybe sell the company to somebody. And he can go retire and live the good life and have his employees, 500-some strong, still be employed, still be relevant, and be able to set off into the sunset. Lieven: We'll see. Joel: The danger is Google will have to write a lot of checks because these little job boards will come out of the woodwork and everywhere, nook and cranny in Europe, and want money. So there is a good chance that Google says, nope, we're going to fight this shit because we don't want to pay every Tom, Dick, and Harry job site $10,000,000 to go away. Lieven: Because it's the only source of income those little job sites still have. But it's like suing Google. And I agree totally with Joel and with Chad, but from a legal point of view, it's irrelevant. I mean, you say they could block Google. They could block those robots.txt. They could use it to block those scrapers. It's like saying if you don't lock your house, it's your own fault when people break in. And that's true. Maybe it's true. But still, it doesn't justify breaking in. And if he doesn't want to be listed in Google, that's it's right. Chad: But he does want to be listed in Google. This is so contradictory. It's total bullshit, Lieven. He's bitching and moaning because he lost 20% of traffic. And now that he has to pay more to get more traffic from Google. That's bullshit, contradictory stuff. Okay. You take a look at everything that's in that document. And at the end of the day, as Joel said, they've been around for 27 years. He keeps harping on that. Well, then you should know better. You should have tech people who can block IP. You should go into Cloudfire, toggle it on, right? There are so many things that he can do, not to mention he's suing the wrong people. It's like, if you're going to create this narrative, then you've got to do it right. And these guys, they're all over the place. They're contradicting themselves. I don't care about Google, but wait a minute, I lost 20% traffic. Oh, now we've got to pay Google more. Oh, I don't want, it's like, dude, just make up your fucking mind. Do you want Google traffic or not? Joel: He is suing the right person, Chad. When John Dillinger was asked, why do you rob banks? He said, "That's where the money is." Chad: That's where the money is. Joel: The money is in Google. Lieven: He also tried to at least talk to the people from jobdanmark.dk, which sounds very legit but it's basically the job site which is owned by a Mr. Intel in Tirana in Albania. So those people don't react. And there's another site which happens to be in Africa, but they didn't specify where in Africa. So it could be anything. Chad: Block IPs. Lieven: Probably it's Russia. Chad: You know when there's a load on your servers, okay? I was in the indexing game for a very long time, guys. Okay? We've been blocked. I mean, when I was with DirectEmployers, we first started this, we got, we had the whole FlipDog thing that was going on that was bad. You can block IPS, you can do all of these. This should be normal for what they're doing. Normal operating procedures. But yet, no, you know what the normal operating procedure is? Let's go try to get money out of that big hill of cash called Google. Lieven: So what do you say? It's like some photographers which aren't very good photographers, they just take tons of photos, they dump them on the internet and hope someone's going to copy paste them, use them somewhere, and then they use software to track who's been using my photo. And then they send them a bill. Joel: Now what's happening is these sites out of Africa, Albania, wherever are stealing these jobs. They're posting them on Google as their own, and then traffic's going to them, and then they're making money on traffic, ads, banner ads. Chad: He's mad because those job sites are getting the traffic off of his IP, which I totally get. But that is why isn't he going after those job sites? Just because they can't find them. Okay, then go ahead and block the IPs. Lieven: Yeah, but if Google wasn't providing Google for Jobs, those job sites wouldn't be there in the first place. So Google for Jobs is the reason. Chad: That I think you're stretching that. We've had this problem well before Google for Jobs, Lieven. Well before Google for Jobs. Lieven: But Mr what is his name, didn't have this problem well before Google jobs. Chad: Back in 2008, right? When we were like in the thick of this with indexing and whatnot with DirectEmployers, this was the same problem. There were these things popping up all over the place. This is not a new problem. Lieven: Okay. And I agree from a normal point of view, you're totally right. But from a legal point of view, I think he might get a case because of the spreading of a protected database for commercial reasons, and they're using it and they shouldn't. When House of HR has an app it's called Swap, you swipe through jobs swap. And we also scrape jobs and we had a very big lawyer agency looking into this because it's, as I said, it's a gray zone using other people's content to get traffic and to find candidates. But, and they said, you'll get away with this no problem, as long as you don't touch commercial job boards. As long as you don't touch commercial databases, then there won't be a problem. But the moment you start using job vacancies from commercial databases, you'll be sued. And I think this is what's happening here. Joel: I think this is where Europe and US kind of diverge in that. Lieven: Maybe. Joel: Like we have pretty strict rules around FTC FCC, whatever, that if you're a search engine, you can only show so many characters unless or else it's stealing and you have to link back. And like, there's certain laws in this country that are probably more stringent in Europe. Because if your lawyers are telling you don't touch commercial property, just touch the government stuff or the association nonprofit, then there's a probably a reason why. Whereas America, I don't think that's an issue. Chad: And again, they've been in the game for 27 years. They know how to stop this. They don't wanna stop this. Joel: I'm not sure they wanna stop it. I think they want that check, baby. They want that check from Google. Lieven: Probably. Chad: I don't know. Lieven: And I don't think they want the check from Google, but I think Joel is right. And he's going to, he's looking for an exit. He wants to sell his company and now there's the big threat of Google for Jobs and the value of his company suddenly dropped because of Google for Jobs. So now he wants to have a case and Google, you shouldn't be touching me. So my company gets its old value back. Something like that. Joel: Think about if he's in talks to sell the company and whoever the buyer might be is saying, you know what? This whole Google thing scares us. Your traffic's down 20%. Like we're gonna just hold tight. You don't think he's pissed as shit, he had that deal maybe on the table. And then Google comes in. It's personal now, he made it personal. Chad: Joel's coming up with fantasies right now. Joel's coming up with fantasies that there's this fantasy deal on the table. Okay, let's just talk. Joel: He wants boats and hoes, baby. That's what he is looking for. That's what he wants. Chad: We know for a fact. We don't know that there was a deal on the table. Joel has a fantasy deal. We know for a... Joel: I said, can you imagine, can you imagine? Chad: Which is what I'm saying, it was a fantasy. So we do know specifically his traffic dropped 20% and he's mad that he has to pay to be able to get that traffic back. And yet he says he doesn't want to play with Google for Jobs, right? So much contradictory bullshit that's happening here. I don't understand what the guy wants. Joel: He may not know what he wants at this point, except... Chad: Cash. Joel: That Google money, baby. And speaking of money, let's take a break. Hear from a sponsor or two, I don't know. And we'll talk about who we'd rather. All right guys, before we get to who'd you rather, we'll end on a climactic note, if you will. Let's talk about cover letters. 'Cause we never talk about that. Dubliner. Chad: There's a reason. Joel: James Malley recently shared his thoughts on AI's role in creating cover letters that piqued our interest, referring to them as the Marmite of the application process, meaning some like them and some do not. Malley said, "AI isn't yet able to extract the why piece of an applicant as the data crumbs you have left in the past can't articulate why you envisage human skill, that is, this role and why it's perfect for you." Chad, thoughts on AI in the role of cover letter creation, and more importantly, are you thumbs up or down on Marmite? Chad: So why are cover letters still a thing? I mean, I just don't understand that. I mean, these are truly a vestige of a bygone era. Back in the day when you handed somebody your resume and you had a cover letter, because at that point we hadn't scaled and people weren't getting a lot of resumes. So you could actually take time to look at the resume and then you could look at the cover letter. We don't have that anymore. This makes no sense to me at all. I mean, it's like horse-drawn carriages and Marmite, which I think is fucking horrible by the way. The only thing worse is Vegemite. Joel: I wanna listen to Men at Work right about now. [laughter] Joel: The Australian band, not European. Yeah. Look, Chad touched on the history. I'm gonna go a little deeper in that. Like, we're both old enough to remember the days where you went to get the Sunday paper, you looked at ads. They had an address, phone number, whatever. And then you would, in a big envelope, you'd go to Kinko's, you'd get your resume printed up on really nice like gray... Chad: Nice paper. Oh yeah. Joel: Or manila paper. And then you would literally write a custom cover letter for that job. Chad: Yes. Joel: There was no like copy and paste. You had a word processor. Some people had a computer. You'd actually go to Kinko's where they had a computer. You'd write up your cover letter, they'd print it out for you. Then you mailed the thing. If you were smart, you sent it via like FedEx or UPS when you knew they got it and you wanted to make a splash, and then you were alerted that they had it. Then you called and said, "Hey, did you get my shit? When can I come in for an interview?" And then like the whole process of calling, ghosting, all that stuff happened. The internet made it feasible to blast your resume to hundreds, if not thousands of companies if you wanted to. Which made cover letters obsolete. And frankly, most recruiters that I know don't look at cover letters. They're looking at skills. I guess if it's a writing job, you wanna look at some of that stuff. Joel: And now we have ChatGPT, which can write it for you. They're already writing letters for recruiters, whether it's thanks for playing but we went somewhere else, or like, this is gonna be mainstream. Why in the world is anybody writing a cover letter? By the way, there are new tools that we're gonna be talking about on the show, that people can blast their resume. Like go through the pre-screening process, right? Like we set up these pre-screening tools to stop this mass application. We like, "Oh, let's put some gatekeepers up." Well, guess what? The new AI is gonna be able to like, go through the pre-screening, answer questions. Like it's gonna be, you're gonna see applications happen like you've never seen before. Chad: Already does. Yes. Joel: Yeah. Ghosting is gonna go through the roof. No one's gonna give a shit about cover letters. It's gonna be like, "Oh my God, how many applicants did we just get? How do we control this? How do we stop this?" And if you just say, "Hey, it requires a cover letter." Who cares? It's gonna be a ChatGPT. Everyone's gonna do ChatGPT, they're gonna get around any whack-a-moles that you wanna say, who's ChatGPT and who isn't. Like, there are bigger problems than is your resume written or your cover letter written by a robot or an actual person? They're gonna be much bigger problems with automation and how people are gonna be applying to jobs in the future than the cover letter. And I've never had Marmite, so I can't comment on that. [laughter] Lieven: It stinks. It really stinks. Chad: You're lucky. You think it'd be good 'cause it's the yeast... Joel: It looks like chocolate. Chad: From beer. Joel: It looks like a candy. Chad: Oh yeah, not for me. No. Joel: Lieven, cover letters. Do you guys still get them at House of HR? Require them? What's up? Lieven: First up with Marmite. [laughter] Lieven: I tried it during COVID because suddenly it was all over the news that the British were very anxious about Marmite not being in the stores anymore because of the, during COVID there was a problem with the, how do you say it, delivery problem. Chad: Yep. Lieven: So stores were out of Marmite and this was a big thing. And I never heard about Marmite. So then I went to my local store and I found Marmite and I tried it, and I was really happy about it. This must be really good. And I opened it and it smelled, it stink. And I tried it, and it tastes maybe not disgusting, but just not good. So I think, to get back to the point, I think cover letters are going the same way for me as Marmite. The last one I remember was one, and actually this is true, which was perfumed. I loved it. [laughter] SFX: Ay papi. Joel: No way. Lieven: Yeah. Joel: What was the job? Lieven: Yeah. Just someone working on my team in a creative job. And they made it as a love letter and I loved it. And it was perfumed. Yeah, it was creative. Chad: Was her name Candy? That's the question. Joel: Yeah. [laughter] Lieven: It should have been Candy. Damn. It probably wasn't. Joel: Well played, Sowash. Lieven: I would've remembered. [laughter] Lieven: And I also remember a cover letter which was inserted in a balloon with helium, so you know a flying balloon. And they hang it to my office, the opening... Chad: The door? Lieven: I'm not sure what the word is in English. Yeah, the door. Chad: The knob, the doorknob? Lieven: Yeah the knob, the doorknob. That's the one. And there was a balloon hanging up my doorknob. And someone put a letter inside and I had to cut the balloon and read the letter. But those were the two only letters I remember. And I don't think I've seen many since. But I used to like motivation mails because it gave me a very quick idea about the intelligence of people. Being able to write a short mail with the essence was a way to say, are people able to tell me a story which is convincing in short amount of time, which is an asset. But now, as you say, with ChatGPT, I'm definitely not going to read whatever has been written by ChatGPT. It's just, it's no use. So now this is gone. Once again, a nice memory from back in the days. [laughter] Joel: I love the delivery. Like there is something to be said for zigging when everyone else is zagging. So if there are job seekers out there, like, yeah, it's not the cover letter, it's the presentation, the delivery. Lieven: Definitely. Joel: The creativity is what's gonna get you noticed. Lieven: The most creative one I think was and probably this is a classic, but this is the only case I know. Someone bought my name as a Google advert thinking all those agency workers, those managers at agencies have big egos and they Googled their own names, which of course I did. And I saw, Lieven Van Nieuwenhuyze, I want to work for you. And I clicked on the ads and that was someone's application. And this was so cool for a digital agency and the guy was hired. So that one was a nice one too. Chad: It works. Lieven: But of course, it works only if you are applying for a very creative job. If you're looking for a, let's say if you're applying for an accountant job, we don't want our accountants to be too creative. [laughter] Lieven: I don't think you would be hired then. But for those agency jobs, I liked it. Joel: Perfumed resume. Lieven: Yeah. Chad: Better than Marmite, my friend. [laughter] Chad: Better than Marmite. Joel: Jesus. Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. Well, on that note, let's play a game of who'd you rather, everybody. Here's how we play it. We read two companies that recently got money and we choose who we'd rather in our assessment, starting off with. Joel: Zurich based CareerFairy, a live streaming platform connecting students with employers. Think, virtual job fairs and stuff like that. Has secured an undisclosed yet significant investment from Dublin-based Mediahuis Marketplaces. The funding will support CareerFairy's global expansion, focused on other DACH and Benelux regions, touting a workforce across multiple European locations and 200 paying clients. CareerFairy believes their future is nothing but up and to the right. Founded in 2019, the company employs 25 people. And in this corner, Mintago. London's Mintago has raised $4.75 million in funding. Founded in 2019, the company provides a financial wellbeing platform designed to help employees tackle their most pressing financial needs, such as managing pension contributions. The company intends to use the funds to further enhance its platform and accelerate its growth across the United Kingdom. They currently employ 42 people. That is the face off. Chad, Mintago or CareerFairy. Who'd you rather? Chad: Yeah. So Mintago, to me, it, seems like it's definitely a problem, but I don't think it's a big enough problem, where CareerFairy can be seen as a necessity because identifying candidates earlier is key for most organizations today and in building their talent pipelines. So to me, this starts to solve a talent pipeline problem. The employer understands and they will pay for it. So I am all in for CareerFairy over Mintago. SFX: What are you doing step bro? Joel: Well, I hate the name CareerFairy. First of all, it's a horrible name. Chad: It's two words you can spell. Joel: It's a little bit memorable, like your cologne or your perfumed resume. But I generally hate student, connecting students with employers companies. They come and go, handshake, like it's just a shitty business. You gotta stay cool and relevant to the kids, which is not easy. There's always a new company that wants to come into the career services. We've got a cooler TikTok account or we've like, whatever it is, students are fickle, targeting them is just a bad historical, or bad business historically. However, let's look at the financial health of employees around the world. According to BenefitsPRO, financial stress costs US companies 4.7 billion per week. Imagine that on a global level, and particularly in Europe, there's a low percentage of savers. Only 20% say they have basic financial literacy. Most people don't have $1000 in the bank for an emergency. My kids aren't taught finances in school, and it's a big problem. If they're not gonna learn it in school, they might as well learn it as an employee. By the way, it's most of these kids that are going to CareerFairy, they're gonna have this crazy debt on their head for going to college that will need Mintago to help with their financial stress. Chad: Not in The UK, but in the US. Carry on. I think you forget what show you're on. Go ahead. Yeah. Joel: Yeah. I know how much apartments are in Paris. Anyway, for me, this is pretty obvious. I hate businesses targeting students. This one is... SFX: Just the tip. Joel: Mintago all the way. Lieven. Lieven: Do I really have to choose one? Joel: Is it neither or you like both of them? Lieven: No. It's neither. No, no. But, I think about Mintago can be very short. I mean, the easiest way to save money is not to spend it on Mintago. So, that's done. And then we have, CareerFairy. I like the name but probably for different reasons. But I feel, it was launched in 2019. Live streaming was the perfect activity during COVID and they probably gained some ground, but now we're post-COVID and they're still hanging on to the live streaming. But because of COVID so many companies as ours, they had their own streaming studios installed. So they don't need companies like that anymore. Three years ago, four years ago, 2019, if I would've liked the professional streaming, I would've used a company like that one. But now we have our own streaming studios, so we don't need them. Lieven: And getting in touch with students isn't that hard. We do campus recruitment, we need it, but we don't need a platform like that. The only reason why I might prefer CareerFairy over Mintago is because Mediahuis, they're Dublin based. But in fact, the holding above Mediahuis is a Belgium company which I happen to know very well, and they are a newspaper publisher and they have very good newspapers in Belgium and the Netherlands and some other countries. So they might use that as a leverage to launch CareerFairy on a bigger scale so it could work. Otherwise, I would never invest my own money in it. I wouldn't even invest House of HR's money in it. Joel: Lieven breaks the tie, the win goes to CareerFairy. Chad and I are coming to Europe. If you're listening to this, you might be at Unleash in Paris, right about now. Make sure you stop by and say hi. We'll be in the Textkernel booth. Until then, we out. Chad: We out. Lieven: We out. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of The Chad and Cheese podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could've used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell. Enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey, or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

Mind Games was a song penned by John Lennon. This interview has nothing to do with the famous Beatle, but up-skilling your workforce through the power of gamification is all the rage right now. That’s why we invited Geri Morgan, chief people officer at Intellum, an Atlanta-based learning technology company, on the show. Turns out, Geri is doing some amazing things with gamification that every employer could learn from. You probably won’t get Pac-Man Fever, but you’re likely to practical tips on how to improve retention and empower your workforce like never before. TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts, complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: Oh yeah, it's your parole officer's favorite podcast, aka the Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheesman. Joined as always, the Skeletor to my he-man, Chad Sowash is in the house, and we are excited to welcome Geri Morgan. Chad: Geri! Geri! Geri! Joel: Chief People Officer at Intellum, an Atlanta-based learning technology company. Geri, welcome to the podcast. Geri Morgan: Thank you. Super excited to be here. Chad: She's glowing, people. She's glowing. Joel: Yeah. It's four o'clock. She's had a few. That's why she's glowing. We won't tell her boss. We won't tell her boss. Geri, for those that don't know you, give us a Twitter bio about you, and then we'll dig into the company and all that boring corporate stuff. Geri Morgan: All right. Awesome. So, I've been practicing HR for about twenty years, and started my career with The Kroger Company, Cincinnati-based business, and just love doing the people work. I'm one of those people that didn't fall into HR, I chose HR on purpose, and have a lot of fun doing what I do. Some things about me on the personal front, I've got three kiddos, two, nine, and sixteen, so I have... Chad: Wow! Geri Morgan: Every emotion and every age represented. Chad: That's a spread. Geri Morgan: Yeah. It's a lot of fun in our house. And my husband and I, we've been married for thirteen years now, so, yeah. And one thing that not a lot of people know about me is that after college, I auditioned to be on MTV's The Real World. Joel: That escalated quickly. Geri Morgan: Unfortunately, I was not selected, but my opening was the Geri, Geri, MTV pick me. Joel: And they didn't pick you with that? That's... Geri Morgan: No. Chad: So, what was the process? Did you just have to send in like a tape? Was it like a VCR tape? Was it a... Geri Morgan: Yes, that's absolutely right. Recorded a three to five minute video about yourself and why they should select you, and then you had to fill out a handwritten application. I couldn't tell you what the next steps were because I didn't make it past that point. Joel: So, you mailed in a VHS tape? Geri Morgan: Yeah. Chad: You do not look old enough to actually have been alive during the VHS Betamax era. You just don't, Geri. Geri Morgan: Thank you, Botox. Chad: I love it. I love it. Well, let's go ahead and move on. Move along. We've got stuff to talk about here, kids. So, today we're here to talk about closing the skills gap, leadership training, and trying to curb, churn, and retain our employees longer, which all drives more revenue to the bottom line. So, starting with the skills gap, here's a quick definition. A skills gap is the difference between the skills the employers need and the skills that the employees have. So, I've got a three-part question for you, Geri, right out of the gate. Joel: Ease her into it, man. Chad: Why is there a skills gap, number one? Why does the skills gap still exist since we know it's been there for decades? And what are you personally doing to close the skills gap at Intellum? Geri Morgan: So, the skills gap, you know, I think that businesses are evolving at a pace that's more rapid than our team members can keep up with. And so, that's just a known fact. You know, organizations are moving at a pace, technology is moving at a pace that our internal tools and the resources to prepare and ready our team members is lagging behind a little bit. Some of, and I already forget question number two. Chad: Why does it still exist? Because we know it's there. Geri Morgan: So, you know, I think that the insights and the way that we can be proactive and help prepare the businesses for the next bend and the next turn. So, some of the strategies, some of the things that we're doing are gamifying the skills gap and gamifying the education experience, driving more excitement and energy and making it fun, while at the same time, being able to get some insights around what that means for the business and augmenting our staff to overcome where we have gaps. So, having some data and analysis around where our talent is, and then knowing where we need to fill in. Chad: Well, it seems like many companies aren't spending the money on training to be able to close the gap, right? And it sounds like you guys are. Talk a little bit about the gamification piece. Does that help? How have you seen it help? The interaction, the engagement. Tell us a little bit about that. Geri Morgan: Yeah. So, you know, gamification, I think that all started thanks to Candy Crush. Then we started, people realize that we're motivated when you turn things into a game and you make things fun. We had a lot of the consumer applications started to blow up. You know, you're getting streaks and badges for reading and walking. And my favorite streak to be on is the good sleep streak. So, you know, you can get motivated and incentivized to do lots of things. Joel: Is that at work? Because I would nail that one. Chad: That's only you, Joel. Joel: I'd nail that one. Chad: And I got to tell you, I stopped using a device because of the sleep because I was so competitive about my sleep that I would get every single night. I had to stop. I was stressing myself out 'cause I wasn't getting as much sleep as I thought I was supposed to get. I'm one of those, I'm one of those. Joel: Only so Sowash. Only so Sowash. I think the Boy Scouts might be offended that you said gamification started with Candy Crush because they've been giving out badges in Boy Scouts for decades. [laughter] You touched on strategy. Give us some tactics. I mean, it's not Candy Crush for like the boss's face and you like. Talk about a real world example at your company of someone getting badges or rewarded in a gamification setting. Geri Morgan: Yeah. I mean, I think some things that we're working on now are like just on a daily basis. How do you conquer your to-do list? How do you complete tasks and feel good and achieved on a short-term basis, getting achievement badges for hitting certain milestones. But really where we're going is more of the skill-based piece. So how can you be recognized for being a task master, a top communicator, problem-solving machine, an innovation guru. And so building out reputation-based, and I think that's the key, is getting out of this mindset that just because you did an activity, you earn a badge. It's making it more meaningful, something that you want to aspire to achieve. And so that can help spark those friendly rivalries, encourage people to step up their game and helping with more strategic work like succession planning, leadership development, and then knowing where you need to build out your education strategies based off of kind of the health and the skill level across your organization. Joel: And using DOPA hits to do that, right? Chad: Yeah. How do you publish? Is there a dashboard somewhere? Is there a literal like pens with stuff? Like how do you publish it? How do you spread the word that someone is getting badges? Is there a vendor, a third-party software that you swear by? Talk about that. Geri Morgan: Well, Intellum is all things education. So we drink our own champagne. We're using our platform. And so our platform does allow for the reputation-based gamification. So we do it for skills as well as core values and being able to earn those and level up in those. Even recently, we're preparing for all employee retreat. And so we're getting people excited about going to this location together and going through the process of preparing and who's ready and excited about the event. So it can help with the team building element as well as kind of the more strategic skills development. So looking for the right vendor and platform that can help facilitate this. And then, of course, with your badges, there's always that cherry on top. Is there an incentive or something in addition that can motivate them to be valued and feel valued. But to your point, Chad, everyone's not that enthusiast or super competitive. And so you do have to be mindful. And so coming up with the right strategy on your gamification is key. And connecting it to business results is where you're going to see the best buy-in. Chad: That's what I want to hear about. Business results. So when you were starting to create these games, do you have a business result or at least one that you've envisioned to try to hit, like a goal that you're trying to hit with all of these things? And they are something that does pretty much translate to a business result because that's all the C-suite cares about in the first place. So talk a little bit about that. And when you do create these games, you're focused on ensuring that not only you're creating something that has a business result, but you can articulate it to the C-suite. Geri Morgan: Yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, that strategy needs to be beyond just the compliance. Certainly you could tie this in to your basic compliance trainings. You get your badge when the compliance is, the learning is completed and your ROI is avoiding fines and penalties, but it's more powerful than that. And so it can really help lead to better outcomes and deriving some insights that can help with the conversations and managing your team. I think of a great example is a high potential team member that was positioned for a leadership development program. And so we signed the program and monitoring the learning activity. And we realized that the individual was spending time in technical training and not doing the leadership coaching and development work. And so this insight and being able to develop a program that gave us some data helped us have a conversation with the individual, learn and talk about career paths. And instead of losing that person because they wanted to go in a technical track, we were able to have that information sooner to be able to position them and just redirect where they're taking their career. Geri Morgan: So I think that the ROI is going to be retention of team members. It's gonna be helping us to get them and keep them engaged and looking at the connection between the or correlations between engagement and your education and learning strategies and performance, I think is really another powerful way of looking at gamification and how we're engaging. And really it's learning is our new marketing for our internal team members. Chad: You mentioned retention. Is there any number, like people are here longer or express more satisfaction or our glass door rate, you know, rankings have gone up. Any data around the retention piece? Geri Morgan: Well, I mean, I think there's lots of reports and data out there. I mean, when gamification and those elements are used, it is found that 90% of employees feel more productive and a 48$ increase in employee engagement. We're seeing some of those results in terms of our overall employee engagement. We're higher than the benchmark. We benchmark ourselves against other similarly sized technology companies. And so we are 10 to 20% on average higher than other peers in our space. I think the glass door rating would be another way of looking at that. We really look at employee engagement internally. You look at retention as well. And the other piece that I think is layered on is your internal promotion rate and through your learning initiatives. Are you preparing individuals to be promoted and grow their career or do you have to bring an outside talent? Joel: So leadership training, I've always had a pet peeve being in the military for 20 years. Whenever you get promoted, you have to go through leadership training. If you don't, if you don't complete it, you get demoted. Right? But on the corporate side, why isn't leadership training standard for every organization? Number one. And number two, you know, what have you guys and what kind of impact have you seen from leadership training within your organization? Geri Morgan: It's crazy how lacking this is across the corporate world. I was reading an article recently. It was less than 5% of businesses have leadership development programs at all levels implemented across. Chad: How does this happen? Geri Morgan: So we're again, we're in that natural state of just being reactive and instead of proactive with preparing our leaders to navigate situations successfully. I mean, I think there is a budget, you know, certainly that's an area that is easy. And one of the first things that sometimes gets cut, which is unfortunate, the budget piece. And, you know, it's hard to do it right. There's so much, you know, the canned content out there. And so this perception is, is that it's difficult to do. And so I think maybe that's why organizations, you know, don't do it. But I mean, the ROI, you're absolutely right. Like it's the career growth and progression and employee retention are some of the key drivers. The millennial workforce is looking for growth and development opportunities. And so if you're not providing that, you're going to see that turnover every 18 to 24 months, especially from that generation. If you're not satisfying that expectation of employment these days, our workforce is 65% millennial. And so this is a big part of what we talk about in creating that culture of learning. Joel: You talk about retention, which is very important. I'm curious about two other R's. One is recruiting. We know that applying to jobs suck. We know that ninety some percent bail before they complete the task of applying to a job. Are you guys currently doing anything to gamify the application process or the recruiting process? And if not, is it something that you don't want to do or something that you just haven't gotten around to? The other question is around referrals. Do you have a badge for someone referring someone? And is that a big badge? Because it should be. Geri Morgan: I love that idea. I think the recruitment piece itself, I think that's brilliant. It's not one that we've currently taken on as an idea, but I have. Chad: New product for your teaching. Geri Morgan: Yes, I think it's fantastic. Joel: I'll take 15% of all these profit. Geri Morgan: Let's keep working on this, but you're absolutely right. I mean, we want to stand out and be a unique company. There's a lot of competition for talent. And so we do want to be a top destination where people want to work. And so we try to showcase and highlight our culture in unique ways and have a very collaborative selection process and do some things that are very personalized to that individual. And in terms of that selection process, talking about things that matter to them and making sure that they have time to vet us fully so that it's a mutual fit. But I think that this could be really fun to work on a gamified recruitment experience and prepping candidates for successful conversations and the vice versa. So interesting angle there. And the referral piece is something that we do track and monitor. And I like the idea of badges for that. And then there's like a master badge. And then once you have so many referrals, you're hired in HR as a recruiter so... Joel: Honorary recruiter. Geri Morgan: A whole new career path. Chad: I want to. I want to. We don't need no stinking badges badge. That's that's what I want. Joel: That's for the Eeyore at the company that just doesn't care about anything. Chad: So we talked about curbing attrition and retention. So a report was leaked that Amazon was losing nine billion dollars in revenue due to attrition. There are multitudes of reports of loss in productivity. All throughout the globe, not just the U.S It seems like curbing churn via career pathing upward/internal mobility is is really the major answer. So have you seen an uptick in companies actually starting to gain traction around around these areas and understanding that churn to the extent that we've had it has not good and is probably the biggest reason why productivity has dropped so much. Have you seen some traction around that? Geri Morgan: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's certainly being in the technology space. It is an area where we're seeing a lot of growth and extra conversations around employee engagement and and retention and how strategy needs to be a core piece of business strategy and having plans to understand and learn why retention is happening. I think that's where you have to start. It's not, you know, the one size fits all. It's not one answer that is going to address and provide a solution for every business. You got to start with listening and understanding why that activity is happening within the organization and then coming up with solutions. And so, you know, again, starting with a plan and a strategy, the business outcome is everything. Don't rush out crap, you know, don't you have to make it good quality content. And so if you're not putting that thought in the first part and creating the strategy and really knowing who your learners are in this case with career development and opportunities for growth and development within businesses, then it's not going to have the buy in and the meaningful impact if you're not starting with understanding your learners and mapping out what that business connection is. Joel: Now, you're headquartered in Atlanta and you're in Cincinnati, so I'm guessing you have remote workers, which leads to my next question. How can you best harness the gamification aspect when everyone is in a different office, working from home and particularly if they're on the road? Do you guys leverage mobile as part of your gamification? So if I'm on the go, I can still have my gamification aspects in my hand as opposed to opening up my laptop. Talk about remote and mobile. Geri Morgan: Yeah, yeah. So we have been a fully remote and remote first organization for 23 years now. So we've been doing this for a while and you're absolutely right. Gamification can help support the employee experience and create community. So it is a tool that can bring people together and facilitate team building, helping create those connections. You can do that through challenges. So, you know, trivia is like right now. We're currently celebrating Intellum's 23rd birthday. So... Speaker 5: Happy birthday! Geri Morgan: It's our Jordan year. So we are all Jordan themed. We've got company trivia going on and some fun prizes that are custom Jordan jerseys. Chad: Nice. Geri Morgan: So, you know, gamifying celebrations and moments that can bring people together like this. And then you can also just create and foster community through platforms around common interests. And so we have groups and individuals that are connecting on, you know, gardening and parents, which, you know, got that covered and other interests that bring people together in a way that create those relationships at work. So that's just kind of an added bonus that you can use this to help facilitate and address multiple different people strategies. Chad: So as we're talking about gamification, let's talk about cheat codes. How do companies get past the mistakes? What are some of the biggest mistakes and what are some of the biggest cheat codes for them to get to better results faster? Geri Morgan: I think starting with knowing who your learners are and then what those learning objectives are and then thinking about how what does that drive in terms of actions? What are the results? So you don't always have to be so monumental. Start with the small things. The other thing that we do is we pilot. And so we get people together. We call them spark sessions. And so sharing, hey, I'm working on this. What are your thoughts? What's your reaction? And so start small and get feedback, get engagement. And then you're going to get people that are excited and become the ambassadors of the program when you launch. So I think that is really a big opportunity that people just try to skip over. And then being able to promote, I mean, it's a whole marketing effort. And so the launch of it, getting the leaders all informed and excited about what you're doing and connecting that to your business outcomes is gonna be the way that you can set people up for successful gaming or learning initiatives in general. Chad: Are you getting marketing support around this internally? Geri Morgan: Yeah, yeah, we do. We have our marketing team that provides some exceptional resources. And if you don't have that, you don't always have that. You know, like with our culture council work with Intellum's birthday, we were able to use Canva and AI and some other tools to help us put together the marketing resources that we needed. Chad: ChatGPT, baby. Geri Morgan: Yes. Yeah, there's AI for that. So leveraging that as much as we can. Joel: I mentioned Eeyore, but in doing some research on this topic, there was a wired story a few years back giving some pushback on the gamification trend. And I'll read you a quote here from the story. "Gamification is unhelpful and can even be harmful if people feel that their employer is forcing them to participate in mandatory fun." Have you run into employees that aren't into it? Do you give them an opt out? Like what tips would you give companies who have sort of a stick in the mud, if you will? Geri Morgan: Yeah, yeah. So that's something that we're real passionate about. Is not making it mandatory, not making it required, is creating an experience that people want to be part of and then going in with the right expectations. You're not going to engage 100% of your workforce. So establish what's realistic. So is it 80%? Is it 60%? So knowing that you aren't going to achieve and be able to appeal to everyone. But I think where you really gain some of those Eeyore's is when you have the reputation based element to it. And so when there is, it's not just for earning the badge. When there is a skill or a mastery level that you can get connected to what you bring and the value that you have, that's when you have your audience and your learners and employees engaged is when there's kind of that level of achievement that is based off of their reputation or skill or value. Chad: Well, too bad, Cheesman. Mandatory fun is always going to happen with the Chad and Cheese podcast. That's Geri Morgan, everybody. Geri, Geri. Joel: Geri. Chad: So, Geri, where can people connect with you? Where would you send them to connect with you to find out more about the company and some of the things that you guys are actually doing? Geri Morgan: Yeah, please connect with me on LinkedIn or find us through Intellum, through LinkedIn or intellum.com. And it's been really fun to talk about how we can level up productivity. And so I just encourage everyone to game on. Joel: Geri, you have officially won the Chad and Cheese podcast badge. And with that, another one is in the can, Chad. We out. Chad: We out. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast, or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey, or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

Intro: Like Shark Tank, then you'll love Firing Squad. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to put the recruiting industry's bravest, ballsiest and baddest startups through the gauntlet to see if they've got what it takes to make it out alive. Dig a foxhole and duck for cover kids, the Chad and Cheese podcast is taking it to a whole other level. Joel: Oh, yes sir, it's another Firing Squad what's up everybody? It's your favorite average white guy podcast, AKA the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheeseman, joined as always the chips to my salsa, Mr. Chad Sowash is in the house... Chad: Oh yeah, light... Joel: And today we welcome... Chad: Crispy. Joel: Amber Wanner founder and CEO of Vette. Amber, welcome to Firing Squad. Chad: That's Amber Winner to you. Joel: Not a whiner, she's a winner. Her name is Amber Wanner. Amber Wanner: Thank you so much for having me. Yes, my name is Amber and sometimes it's autocorrect my last name to winner but it's Wanner and I am a Philly girl and I moved recently to Boise, Idaho where I am building my company Vette. Joel: Fantastic, fantastic. Chad: You don't hear that much. Joel: Are you an Eagles fan? Amber Wanner: Absolutely, through and through. Joel: Absolutely. Amber Wanner: Everyone in Boise is gonna be an Eagles fan when I'm done. [laughter] Joel: Fixers, Flyers, like you're total Philly to the bone in terms of sports. Amber Wanner: All of it. Joel: That's awesome, that's awesome. Chad: Yeah. Very nice, yeah now... Joel: Didn't we talk to someone from Philly the other day whose favorite team was the Cowboys? I found that very odd that that was... Chad: That is very odd. It seems like a transplant at that point. Joel: Yeah, I don't know what's going on there. Alright, Chad. Chad: Which is like Philly in Utah. Yeah. Joel: Tell her what she's won today. Chad: Well, Amber, welcome to Firing Squad, this is how it's gonna play out. At the sound of the bell. Joel: That's not the bell. Chad: There it is, you're gonna have two minutes to pitch Vette. At the end of two minutes, we're gonna hit you up with about 20 minutes of Q&A, be sure to be concise or you're gonna get the crickets, that means tighten up your game. At the end of Q&A, you're gonna receive one of the three from myself and Joel, big applause. Uber for phone interviews my ass, more like the rocket ship for phone interviews. Yippee Ki-Yay motherfuckers, you're getting acquired, golf clap. This ain't a rocket, but it still might get you a good exit without hitting warp speed and last but not least, it's the Firing Squad. Joel: Oh boy. Chad: It's the penis rocket that prematurely exploded on launch. Get back to the drawing board, 'cause this ain't it, that's it. Are you ready for Firing Squad? Joel: It's like throwing snowballs at Santa Claus in Philly, you ready, Amber? Amber Wanner: Yes. Joel: Pitch in three, two. Amber Wanner: Awesome. So Vette is a platform that utilizes the gig economy to phone interview applicants on behalf of businesses. So basically this allows an applicant to interview the moment that they apply to a job or express interest. So we're talking about that moment of intent where you have a quick moment to be able to capture that applicant and move them forward in the process. Our veterans are stay-at-home moms, retirees, military veterans, people with disabilities and a lot of HR professionals who are doing this in their free time. Our platform has the script so they know exactly what to say, it's a data-driven interview, so there's no bias and it's really having that, we call it instant human connection, where someone's able to really have a genuine conversation with a human. And yeah, we then, work with companies to put the data back into the ATS and move them along the process. We consider it, the hiring journey, which is the moment of intent is the applicant, the moment of conversion is the candidate and then the moment of retention is the employee, and so we're tracking that entire journey from the moment of intent. Okay, that's all. Joel: That sounds like she was done, a little early, a little early that time. Alright, Amber, I always ask about the name. Amber Wanner: Yes. Joel: Obviously Vette, I think of Corvette just 'cause I have a whole Armada in my garage. Little known fact about me, kidding. But vette.io, vette.com is a shockingly a car site. Amber Wanner: Yes. Joel: With a chick in a bikini selling Corvettes. So like that may be some confusion in the marketplace, but how'd you come up with the name, was there a number two that almost made the cut? Talk about that. Amber Wanner: Yeah, so it's funny that you said vette.com because, it is really funny 'cause it's a bunch of Corvettes, a guy with a bunch of Corvettes bought the website in the 90's and he's selling it for a decent amount of money. And so when we hit our first million, we're gonna buy a Corvette and the high heels. I dunno if you saw the high heels on that website, but no Vette is really, like you're vetting, you're vetting someone. And so it applies to any kind of aspect of that hiring process when you're vetting someone. Joel: Did you secure like vette.net or vette.ai to redirect or is it just the io? Joel: We do have vette.ai, but originally it was vette.io, which is where it is today but we do also own vette.ai. Joel: Got, it. Okay. You are a two-time founder. Talk about your previous startup and maybe how it compliments the current company. Chad: And how can you do that? 'cause it looks like you're only 12. I mean, come on. Amber Wanner: Thank you, I just turned 32 and I'm like, I don't even know how. Chad: Oh stop. Joel: Amber. I would be triggered at a comment like that. Tell him to fuck off. Amber Wanner: I used to lie about my age 'cause I wanted to be older like forever and wear high heels so I could look older... Joel: Same me too. Amber Wanner: And everything. But my first company, it was called Candidate. So I ran that for about five and a half years. It was a tech recruiting company and the idea for Vette part of it came out of that, I was having software engineers vetting other software engineers, and it was just part of my process. It was a challenge that I had, but prior to that I actually was in staffing and so I was in frontline staffing, and my sole job was to smile and dial applicants that applied the day before, the night before and no one would ever pick up or get back to me because they applied at that moment of intent when they were available. And so I thought there had to be a better way. Joel: So you've raised about, what is it, a little over 2 million, 2.4 million in seed funding, you were founded in 2020. What have you done with the money? What do you plan on doing with it? Is there another raise coming in the near future? Amber Wanner: Yeah, definitely. So I launched the company right as COVID was happening, which I think was a really great opportunity because I didn't have employees that I needed to let go. Like I could really hone in on understanding the market, the industry, doing market research, testing stuff out. So originally it was supposed to be software engineers vetting other software engineers. But I found a matrix that said the higher the skill, the less on-demand something could be, the lower the skill, the more on-demand something could be. So I pivoted the business to virtually anyone can interview like a warehouse worker or a fast food employee, and so I brought on all my friends and family to be the vetters sitting on call. A lot of them were military veterans, a friend of mine had a physical security company in Philly. Amber Wanner: And I was like, as soon as an applicant applies on Indeed or wherever can I text them and say, Hey, I saw you apply this job, would you like to interview now? And so the data just came in. The applicants were like, wow, that was so fast. I can't believe that I'm talking to someone so fast. And so I was like, okay, I think we have something here. That was before we had raised our pre-seed. So built out a proof of concept, I like to call it our bubblegum and tape version of the product, tested it out on a staffing company on their use case, learned a ton and then with that data, we were able to raise, our seed round and then we launched to the public last year and we are, hopefully Q1 of next year, gonna be going for our series A. Chad: Awesome, awesome, love getting the family involved, that's all great. [laughter] Amber Wanner: It passed the mom test. Joel: And they're probably all from Philly, I bet that was a fun pre-screen. Chad: The whole alpha/pilot. So okay, so beyond that of getting family involved, where are you finding your vetters now? You said individuals with disabilities, veterans, giggers. Okay, great, but where are you finding them to actually pull them in to do this? Amber Wanner: So we have done zero marketing and it's all been word of mouth and we have hundreds of vetters on the platform. We've started tracking how they're finding out, it's word of mouth, word of mouth, word of mouth. Like one veteran is telling another veteran and so right now we actually have a wait list of 600 vetters, and it's all on top of the 500 that we already have on the platform. And because it's a supply demand situation, we need to make sure that we're managing that so that way the vetters are making enough money to continue to come on and then there's enough jobs coming in, but it's been so great because we've been really understanding the vetter behavior and when they go online, when they go offline. We have teachers over the summer, all summer we had a lot of teachers on the platform. But yeah, it's just been so incredible that the flywheel for the vetters have really kind of gone, it's cool. Chad: So do you have like a specific amount of Vetters that you want on the system at all times? And if it starts to shrink down, you start to invite other people into Vette. How does that work to ensure that you have enough vetters at specific times, especially high volume times? Amber Wanner: Yeah, so we actually go off of Erlang C's call center model to make sure that we always have coverage. So we also offer to companies where their internal team could take that first Vette request that comes in and if they're not available, then it goes to the Vetter network. So there's always coverage and like you said, if there's any times that are lagging, we'll bring more on, but what we found is that when Vette requests are coming in, vetters are online 'cause they're making money. Chad: Gotcha, gotcha. So how are they trained? How are the vetters trained? Amber Wanner: Yeah, so technically we can't train because it's gig work, but we could provide best practices. So our vetters vet new vetters coming on, so we use our own product to vet them coming on. And then we provide all the best practices, the feedback loops, everything very similar to like an Uber where there's ratings and so they're able to get that feedback. Chad: Okay. So how do you do QA/QC moving forward? So you vet this vetter, you put them on, that's great, but that doesn't mean they're always gonna be amazing. How do you continue to provide QA/QC to ensure quality? Amber Wanner: So we're working towards sentiment analysis for the vetters to be able to save the energy level and whatever else. And we can provide that feedback as data. So I always say cash is king, data queen, and data really, everything is about data. We're utilizing humans, but get it, it's for the data that they're... Chad: Okay. So are, are you recording and that's how you're getting sentiment analysis and then you're doing transcriptions, tell me a little bit about that process in itself. Amber Wanner: Yeah, so all the interviews are recorded, and they are transcribed as well. We're able to go off of that. After the interview is done, an applicant gets a text message saying, how would you like to rate, how was your interview experience? Rate it on a scale, so they can rate it that way and then customers can also provide feedback on the vetters that they... Favorite vetters and whatever else. Chad: Process-wise, the transcriptions are then, and recordings are pushed into the applicant tracking system, is that how it works? So that then the recruiter can jump onto it to review? Does the review happen in Vette or does it happen in their applicant tracking system? Amber Wanner: So, yeah, so in the actual interview, if this, then that. So if they answer this way or if they answer this way based on what the company puts as their deal breakers and whatever else will determine if they're the right fit or not. And then after the interview is done, the text goes out to them 10 minutes later letting them know if they're moving forward or not and what the next steps are. Chad: 10 minutes? Amber Wanner: 10 minutes. Chad: 10 minutes. Amber Wanner: And on average, applicants went for getting that text message. So the way that that it works is an applicant will apply to the job. The moment that they apply, they get a text from us saying, Hey, saw you apply this job, would you like to interview now? We've eliminated scheduling. No scheduling at all, so if they're available now or whenever, it's a link that looks kind of like Uber, they don't have to download anything, they just hit interview now, a button, and it searches who's online applicants are interviewing on average within one minute and 28 seconds of getting that text message, and then 10 minutes later they're getting their feedback about what their next steps are. So our conversions have been absolutely insane and it's funny 'cause I just know what we're building, but the industry standard it's really cool to see kind of how that is working. Chad: You're skipping a step. Amber, you're skipping a step, that's not fair, you're skipping a step. Scheduling. Joel: Amber... Amber Wanner: We're also reducing companies Ad spend because we're converting leads faster, the applicant's faster. Joel: Amber wait lists, Philly accents, working moms in Utah, this all sounds very inefficient. Can't we just automate this whole thing with AI? Are you gonna stick with this human model? Amber Wanner: I love that you said that. Any investors that I talk to that want to replace the human entirely with AI, I don't want them to be our, necessarily our investors. And I'm fine saying that, and I've spent countless nights, like after ChatGPT and all that stuff came out, I spent countless nights trying to really understand why that works and why the results are showing. And I kept coming back to this word, moment, we're capturing the applicant right at the moment, and what moment is, is it leads to momentum, and so if you think about the physics behind momentum, it's mass and velocity, so when you could capture an applicant in the moment and show them that they matter with a human, that's what's leading to conversion and that momentum, but companies can't do that right now because they don't have enough people. Amber Wanner: So basically they're pumping more velocity, which is the technology, but they don't have enough people, and so by utilizing the gig economy, we're giving them mass people in their time, and so in terms of now the AI part, like the psychology behind it, the difference between AI that could sound like a human and whatever else, is the relatability factor, it's the, "Oh you grew up in Somerset, New Jersey, did you go to the Bridgewater Commons Mall? I went there with my grandpa growing up." It's that relatability, that human to human connection that I will stand on until I'm blue in the face, and if AI takes over entirely, I don't wanna be a part of that world and I will continue building that until, yeah. Joel: Alright, so you passionately will die on that hill. I get it. Amber Wanner: I will. Joel: But do you have any data or anecdotal evidence that that's what your customers want? I get that the job seekers want that, but do your customers demand it as well. Amber Wanner: Well, the customers are coming to us and a lot of our AI competitors, which we love AI, don't get me wrong, 'cause it basically AI, I believe that AI getting you to the human is the way that it goes. Creating more efficiencies there. But our AI competitors are actually asking to integrate with us because their customer wants the human aspect. Joel: Interesting. So from the looks of it, it looks like most people who apply talk to somebody, at least from your website, that's what it looks like. Is that the case? And how do you manage that? If you're doing like high volume positions it seems like 600 wouldn't be enough to handle that. Amber Wanner: The interview is about five to seven minutes long, it's up to 15 interview questions and/or statements. And you can get a lot out of a conversation out of a moment in five to seven minutes. And so a vetter does an interview, we wanna make it so that a vetter can do about six if they wanted to, per hour, which is again is that Erlang C's call center model. But yeah, and as we start getting more and more companies on, we just add more vetters one by one. Joel: And how much can a vetter make? I mean, do you find yourself competing with DoorDash wages and what they could make doing other gig things? Is that a separate competition? What can a vetter typically make? Amber Wanner: Actually, it's funny 'cause how did we first start getting vetters? I would recruit all my Uber drivers, I would be like, oh, I'm doing this. But the great part about vetters is that you need to leave your home. You can do it from the confines of your own home, from wherever you are. And that's the beautiful part about, our vetters are distributed all across the country. I think we have two states where we don't have vetters, I think Hawaii and North Dakota, I think, the last I checked. But we have vetters all over and they can do it from, right? They don't have to spend gas money, they don't have to do any of that, it's literally having a human to human conversation, and the purpose and the mission and vision behind Vette is that we're having strangers show other strangers that they matter. Amber Wanner: And we're working with a grocery store and when it started getting me thinking that the applicants are the customers and so when... It is such a beautiful thing, it's that like loving your neighbor thing where like that better could be your customer, that applicant is your customer. And that's one of the reasons why also having that human to human connection for right at the moment in of intent rather than AI, you're building that rapport and that trust, and guess what, who is that person gonna shop at now? Your competitor down the street or the company that they're vetting applicants for? Joel: I'm sorry, can I get an applause for recruiting Uber drivers to be vetters. I think you hear a lot about hustling as a startup and that is hustling, quick applause for that. Chad: And big applause for Philly Love, Philly Neighborly love. So let's talk about market segment. What types of companies and positions is Vette really perfect for. Amber Wanner: So high volume hiring. So originally when I first first launched the product, again, we haven't done any marketing or anything yet, which is why probably a lot of people haven't heard about that. But we started off saying, okay, we're gonna do... Like this customer's interested and then this type of customer is interested. So we work with assisted living centers on CNAs, RNs, LPNs, housekeepers, line cooks, jobs. But then we're also working with a physical security franchise that is recruiting security guards. And we also have car rental who's doing like drivers and some salespeople We also have a hair salon that's doing like hairstylists and it's interesting, it's really any company that needs to capture the applicant at that moment of intent before you lose them to your competitor. But I will say that I pivoted from the highly skilled, like the software engineers, doctors, lawyers for a reason. And that was because there's not thousands of node engineers readily available to vet someone's applicant on demand. So I want people like my mom and your mom and your sister and your brother and our neighbors and everyone to be able to use the platform to earn a living. Amber Wanner: I have a situation where a friend of mine, she was having a hard time paying her rent, and I don't want anyone... Have you ever seen The Pursuit of Happyness. I recently saw that. Chad: Yes. Amber Wanner: And it was like, I don't want anyone to ever feel they don't have an option. And with this, they have options, you don't have to starve and you don't have to not be able to pay your rent. Chad: Amber for President people. Okay, so when we're talking about being able to get these vetters ready for new positions, new companies, those types of things, is it easy, is it hard if they're already in the system, but yet it's something that they haven't questioned about before types of positions, is there any type of training that needs to happen? Amber Wanner: So that was the question, and that was when we first weren't sure 'cause the vetters would be like, well, can I have the script before hand? We're like, no, it's right when it pops up, so we started testing it out, and you find that it is like, you pick it up so... It is such a seamless, the way that we've developed the platform, I developed it for someone like me, I don't like complex systems, and I need something that's super easy to figure out, and it's so easy, it's a script that the first part is generally started the same way, there's consent that the call is being recorded and whatever else, and then it goes into... It's a conversation and we want it to be a conversation, we're okay if vetters go a little bit off-script, and as long as that human-to-human connection is there and you're doing that data that you need. But yeah, there's a couple of questions they had to be tested there, we constantly are doing A/B testing on stuff, and we learned from that. Chad: Okay. So what about staffing, you said that you tested this with staffing, this seems like the perfect opportunity for staffing to start to build more margin within what they're doing possibly. Are you working with any staffing companies at all? Amber Wanner: Yeah, we actually are. So we're working with staffing companies and RPOs have been reaching out to us to use the technology and then to use the overflow for the times that they can't get to speak to the applicant. Chad: Right. Amber Wanner: Because even call centers and RPOs are limited. Chad: Yes. Amber Wanner: Because they're based on seats or the limited availability of the one single person, and so with that, it's not limited, it almost in a way defines the macro economics of being able to have the resources to do something and so... So yeah, we're working with some staffing companies and RPOs, I've been reaching out to us to use the platform. Chad: And again, taking macro economics on the podcast, she's definitely running for president, so we're talking about a US target right now, are you working within the entire US? I would say yes. Are you looking to be able to go beyond that. Canada, Mexico, and then beyond Europe? Amber Wanner: Yeah, we have definitely gotten requests, some people have reached out and been like, I heard about Vette, I'm like, how did you hear about Vette, I don't even know how, but it's really... It's cool to hear that. So yes, we also are working on an option where if an applicant wants to interview in Spanish or in a different language, that we could prioritize the vetters that could interview them in whatever language that it is that they want, as well as any specific industry, they'll be prioritized, so if someone has a nursing type of job, they could have a nurse be the one that vets them, it's priority, it's not guaranteed, but we could prioritize based on that. Joel: You mentioned chatbots and some others that are competitors, are there any other competitors that you would consider that maybe we are, and you mentioned, is there anyone doing this globally that you know of, anyone outside of chatbots that are competitors? Amber Wanner: No, I don't wanna... Here's the thing, I'll never say no, there's not a competitor out there because who knows who was me building something in their studio apartment, building something, I don't wanna ever take that away from anyone, but as far as we know, and I do keep an eye on what's going on in everything, no. We do have a mode that we have in our... Chad: Got it. Amber Wanner: Back pocket, but, yeah... Chad: And who would the ideal acquirer, not acquirer, ideal partner be for this business, if they called up? Amber Wanner: Yeah, I waiting for the point where we can acquire companies. But no, so I would say partners with us would be maybe the RPOs or some AI companies. Honestly, ATSs, the ATSs are definitely one that... What we found our data, because we're converting applicants faster, that it'll only make the ATSs better. So we do have automations and everything, integrations with ATSs, but partnering with a Workday or Oracle or any, would really be something that I think would make sense and also help them out and their partners and their customers. Joel: This sounds really freaking expensive, Amber. Chad: Hello. Joel: What can a customer expect to pay for such a price-sounding solution? Amber Wanner: Yeah, so it ranges. If a company wants to use it internally for the platform, and we also give data on what times of day interviews are coming in, so we can fully equip them with that, so it's anywhere from $89 per seat to $59 per seat for internal and in external, it could be anywhere from $20 per vet to $15 per vet. Joel: Okay, okay. All right, Amber, that is the bell meaning the Q&A session is over. Are you ready to face Firing Squad. Amber Wanner: Yeah. Joel: Come on give me some Philly like bring it on. All right, Chad get her. Chad: All right, so one thing that chatbots have demonstrated is that instant gratification is something that... And I think we've all known that it's what America is built on these days, like it or not, we created this experience monster and now we have to feed it. That being said, not every company will want a chatbot texting experience when they have an opportunity for a human touch point. And in some hiring companies, they might feel that the human touch point will actually give them an upper hand in landing the talent and then the optics of giving a human white glove experience. So it gives them that market experience, not to mention, you're also being able to skip a step where everybody's talking about, oh, we do scheduling so much better, there's no scheduling, we're skipping that all together. The hard part, obviously, you might see as you start to grow this, 'cause you're still really in your infancy, is scaling the workforce, the vetters for the new areas to interview, and then obviously growing aspirationally, growing globally and being able to do that in foreign languages. Chad: Right? That's where it gets scary. Although we've seen generative AI uses a co-pilot that can index information much faster and better than humans alone coupling that with a multi-modal large language model, and the near future kinda puts human-powered platforms in a redundancy kind of scenario. But guess what, we're not there yet, and I think Vette has time to get acquired and or explore those avenues themselves, which is why I believe you're headed down the right path. You're doing all the right things. You've got the right experience. I'm a big fan. This is a big applause. Amber Wanner: Yay, that's the Rocky. Yeah [laughter] Joel: I love it. The little corner of her mouth was starting to smile as you were leading to the applause. Alright, Amber, don't get too excited now 'cause I still have a turn in this thing. All right, so when we do these Firing Squads, I research the company, what they've raised, and I come with the questions that are pretty standard, and then I come up with what I think without meeting the founder, as nice as they are or whatever, 'cause that way, I try not to be biased in my decision. So I write up a commentary of what I think without meeting you, what I would say. And I was ready to kill this company, I was ready to say, this is a commodity, this is gonna get AI'ed to death, and I said, unless she tells me they're gonna automate this thing and go, AI, you didn't. You zagged and I zigged, you said there's no way in hell that we're gonna go automation, we're gonna be human being till the end, and one of my points was that you're being the Uber for employment or Uber for interviews or whatever it is. I wrote it down in Uber for phone interviews, and I was gonna say, even Uber is looking to automate all their taxis, robo taxis were just approved in California, this is where everything is gonna go. Joel: The difference is, if I'm an automated robo taxi or a taxi with a taxi driver, I don't really care 'cause I don't talk to the taxi driver, my experience and a taxi is no better if I talk to a driver or not, I just wanna get where I'm going. Searching for a job is different, these are people who are looking, they may have been laid off, they may be depressed or defeated in some way, I gotta think, if I'm looking for a job and I'm in that head space and I apply and talk to a human within minutes. If not seconds, I feel a little bit better about life. I feel a little bit better about, oh shit, I applied and I got a person, a human being on the line and your right to say, we're a long way from, hey, I'm from Chicago, like, oh, did you see the Bears game last week? Or to have that kind of nuance in context, I think we're way off from anywhere near that. I love that you have a mote of Vetters, you should write a white paper on how you're able to grow Vetters with no marketing whatsoever. And I think it goes beyond just talking to your Uber drivers, unless you were taking Ubers for 24 hours a day, in multiple cities. Chad: Hoping from Uber to Uber. Amber Wanner: Yeah [laughter] Joel: And I also think. We had a story recently about a customer service company that laid off 90% their customer service people. Good for them, that's the direction I wanna go, but that's also Vetters for you to cherry pick and grow your mote, if you will, of people that can provide a human touch through the job search journey, I believe humans will always have a place in this world, held there still classified job postings and newspapers, you may have a small percentage of the overall market, but it's gonna be a really big market, and you may be the only fish in that pond, and I think that's a good place to be in. And for that as well, it's a big applause for me, and you know what happens when that happened, Amber. You get a little careless whisper in the Firing Squad. That's just how good... You obviously have survived and thrived in the Firing Squad. How do you feel? Amber Wanner: Amazing, I could breath now [laughter] Joel: I can breath now. Amber Wanner: Thank you so much that means a lot to me, it really does. Joel: You're welcome. You're welcome. Chad: Thanks for coming on. Joel: Such a pleasure. Good luck to you. Obviously, you're early in this journey, let us know when you get that series A, Let us know when you're making moves overseas. But until then, Amber let our listeners know where they can find out more about Vette. Chad: Yeah, so we actually created something for Chad and Cheese, and so its vette.io/chadandcheese, and then you'll actually be able to listen to a real call, a real vet and book a demo to see the product. And, yeah. Joel: That escalated quickly. Chad: That deserves a big position applause in itself. Joel: You want applause for that all right. Amber Wanner: Yes. She is forward thinking on all of this, I love it. Just another way... Joel: Atleast she didn't volunteer us to be Vetters for those demos. Like you guys will be getting calls for demos of that. Chad: Wait till we get off the recording, she'll be at... Joel: That's right. That is vette.io everybody. Chad another one in the can, this one was fun and we out. Chad: We out. Outro: This has been the Firing Squad, be sure to subscribe to the Chad and Cheese Podcast so you don't miss an episode and if you're a startup who wants to face the Firing Squad, contact the boys at chadcheese.com today. That's W-W-W.C-H-A-D-C-H-E-E-S-E.C-O-M.

The boys are snapping necks and cashing checks this week from the HR Tech Conference in Las Vegas from the Fuel50 booth. After giving some much-deserved love appreciation to Friends of Chad & Cheese that we’re in attendance, the boys dig into the latest news from show sponsor Harri, covering the latest round of funding with the company’s CFO, who jumped in during the show. If that’s not enough for a shortened roadshow, the guys discuss takeaways from the conference and wonder why startups in certain parts of the country have a tough time with naming their companies. Oh yeah, and a breakdown of U2 at the Sphere goes down. It was a beautiful day, indeed. TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark snack. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: Oh, yeah. Recording live from the HR Tech Conference in Las Vegas from the Fuel50 booth. This is the Chad and Cheese Podcast... Chad: This is tight. Joel: Weekly show. I'm your... Yeah. Chad: This is tight. [laughter] Joel: I don't know what to do with my hands. I don't know. Alright. I'm your co-host, Joel the Edge Cheesman. Chad: And this is Chad "I can't fucking believe we went to the Sphere last night" Sowash. Joel: I know. That's exciting. And on this abbreviated episode of the Chad and Cheese Podcast, we're talking HR Tech Conference news and... Chad: Stuff. Joel: Interesting stuff. Chad: Stuff. Joel: We're talking Harri. Let's do this. So how are you feeling, man? Day two and a half, I guess? Chad: Yeah. And I gotta say, it's hilarious because we come here and... I mean, HR Tech's HR Tech. You see the Startup Alley... Joel: Yes it is. Chad: You see the big names, companies getting funding, which we'll talk about. It's same as it ever was to some extent, but it's more exciting because of all the AI aspects of it. Joel: Yeah, yeah. Chad: And then we got lucky last night and scored some tickets for U2. Joel: Yeah. Let's talk about us 'cause I feel like that's what our listeners wanna hear about. So this has been an incredible trip. Chad: Yeah. Joel: I got a few shoutouts, thank yous. Plum is on the list. Chad: Oh, hell yeah. Joel: Sponsor of the show. Chad: All you need is Plum baby. Joel: Rhyme with Plum. All you need is Plum. [vocalization] Joel: They always do a great job of creating a theme around a promotion. Chad: Tying shit together. Joel: All you need is Plum. The Beatles love imagery... Chad: That's amazing. Joel: T-shirts, stickers. Joel: Yellow submarine. Joel: They went full-in. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: Drinks before. So if you haven't done the Love at the Mirage, Cirque du Soleil show, if you love The Beatles, even if you don't, I think you're gonna know a lot of the songs no matter what. Chad: Pro tip, pro tip, take a gummy before you go. Take a gummy, about 10 milligrams. It'll rock your world. Oh yeah. Joel: Yeah? Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: Yeah. But you didn't do that. You're just... Chad: I didn't. Julie did. But I did last night for U2. And that... So yes, pro tip. Joel: Okay. Well, let's not jump ahead. So pro tip on the gummies, thanks. Not for the kids out there. Don't you... Chad: Yeah, not these gummies. Joel: Just say no, kids. Chad: Yes. Joel: So then last night, we get a, basically falls in our lap, tickets to the Sphere. If you don't know what this is, it's basically a huge digital ball in Vegas that has digital... Chad: You said it earlier... Joel: Animatronics... Chad: It's the future... Joel: Animation is the future. Chad: It's Fifth Element shit. Joel: So We get to go, to see U2 at the Sphere. Great Tickets, great seats. Paradox, another great sponsor, shoutout to them for hooking us up for that. Chad: Amazing, amazing. Joel: What were your thoughts on the Sphere, U2, all that? 'Cause I think we were both blown away by it. Chad: Yeah. No, it was funny 'cause last week I was actually showing TikTok videos to my daughter... Joel: Yeah. Chad: Of the Sphere and I was like, "Isn't this the coolest thing ever?" and she was like, "Well, are you gonna go?" I'm like, "Sweetheart, I mean, tickets are like 1200 bucks. I doubt it." Joel: Right. Chad: Right? Joel: Right. Chad: And then last night we were on our way and I called her. I'm like, "We're going to the Sphere." [laughter] I felt like a little kid. But we got there. We were outside, not even inside the venue yet, and it is this humongous digital ball and it is just... I was awestruck. I took one picture. That's all I could do. I had to get inside. I got inside. It was really easy to get in. I was... It holds 18,000 people, this ball. It holds 18,000 people. We got in really easy. Got beers pretty quickly. And I mean, the experience in itself, as soon as, U2 got on stage, I've never been in such an immersive experience in my life. I believe this, in many cases, will replace that of what we've known as VR. Joel: The arena show. Well, okay. Chad: The arena show and VR too. Joel: Okay. So you would go VR. Chad: Yeah, yeah. Joel: None of this in your living room experience. People are gonna wanna be here. AI cannot replace... Chad: No. Joel: What happened last night to us. Chad: No. And they can't replace doing it with 18,000 of your closest friends. I mean... Joel: Yeah. The energy can't be replicated. Chad: And that's what it feels like. Oh, it was amazing. Joel: Yeah. When you have... The intro to Streets Have No Name, how it just goes up, and then everyone starts jumping, boom, boom, boom. Yeah, you can't replace that with VR. So when I saw this thing getting built, I had no idea it was gonna be like this digital eyeball in the center of Vegas. Chad: We saw it from the high roller from UNLEASH. Joel: Yeah. I saw it getting built and I'm like... Chad: It's just like this black ball. Joel: Okay. It's 18,000 people. How are they gonna fill that? Because usually when it's Celine Dion at the whatever, it's like 5,000. It's pretty easy to fill. This was a big... I'm like, how are they gonna do that? Just 'cause it's a ball? Big deal. And then when I saw the digital thing, I thought, "Oh, that's really cool." Chad: Yes. Joel: And then you go in and we start seeing the TikToks of all the digital, just stimulation. I was blown away. It had like... It must've been like Romans going to the Coliseum for the first time. Chad: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Joel: That must've been what it was like. Chad: The quality of the video though was... Joel: And the sound... Chad: Amazing. Joel: There were scenes, and we don't wanna spoil it, but where like the Edge is on guitar and he's looking at the camera and you feel like every little nook and cranny of his face is there. Chad: Literally, he looked like a true giant, almost like 3D. I mean, it was amazing. Joel: Remember when the ceiling light looked like it was coming down? Chad: It was coming down, yeah, like it was gonna crush us. Yeah, it was pretty fucking cool. Yeah. Anyway... Joel: Yeah. I was telling you that there are a few episodes in my life where I thought that's the future, the internet, digital camera, smartphone. This was one of those moments. This is the future of entertainment. We talked about boxing fights, sporting matches... Chad: Oh yeah. Football, yeah. Joel: Obviously more music. This thing is gonna be in every major city. Big acts are gonna wanna play there, smaller acts. I guess the dome can be as big as you want. It could be 5,000 people if you want. Chad: It could be. And it could be just aspects of like domed screen, right? 'Cause we're seeing Dallas Cowboys Stadium, for God's sakes, the whole fucking place is a screen anyway, right? This is just beyond that. And being able to integrate some of these technologies into it, I think that myself is where we're gonna see arenas going. Joel: Yeah. Yeah. We don't make stock picks on the show, but it is a public company. Chad: Oh, I'm picking this. I am picking this. [laughter] Joel: And when you lose your shirt, call Chad. Don't call me. Don't call me. Chad: I said, I'm picking this. I didn't say anybody else should picked this. Joel: I know. [laughter] Joel: So we mentioned Plum. We mentioned Paradox. A few other thank yous I wanted to mention. Our friend Omar at Job Pixels took us out for a great night. His wife is a saint. Chad: Oh my God. Joel: A baby that doesn't sleep. And then there's the baby. I'm talking about not Omar, but the actual baby. She's got her hands full. Shoutout to her. Keith Sonderling, friend of the show, four-time-now guest... Chad: Yeah, amazing. Joel: EOC, commissioner. Shoutout to him. He was at the show last night in the pit. I wanna know if he was wearing a suit. Chad: No, I don't think he was. Joel: Okay, no suit. Chad: 'Cause he actually said he was gonna go change. I told him we got tickets and he's like, "Oh shit." And then he went and he found tickets. Joel: He found tickets. Yeah, yeah. And Shane Gray was there last night. He was posting pictures. That was great. Chad: Good time, good time. Joel: Plum I said, Paradox, obviously. Shoutout to Rich Wilson, our friend at Gigged.AI. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: Gave us some scotch. Gave me some scotch. We'll get to how I got that. Chad: Kilted Yoga. [laughter] Joel: Kilted Yoga. How deranged are our fans that they thought to bring a kilted, was it hot yoga or just yoga? Chad: No, just kilted yoga. Joel: Kilted yoga. Chad: Just kilted yoga. Joel: Yeah, yeah. Chad: We're gonna do that. We're gonna do that in Scotland. Joel: They know the audience. Yeah, we're gonna go to Scotland, drink some peated lovely golden liquid. Chad: Nothing like doing downward dog in a kilt, in a kilt. Okay. Joel: Underwear, optional, apparently, on some of that stuff. So shoutout to him. Also Joe Wilkie, who brought over some bourbon, which you were... Chad: Yes, I got. Yes. Joel: Able to keep because you're not the biggest scotch fan in the world. And really just some of our fans. Colleen DeGeorge... Chad: Oh dude. Joel: Loves us, and messaged both of us, I think, to just, belts and suspenders that she was gonna get in front of us. She came by. Chris Brevik, who we didn't know necessarily, he comes by, says hi. Dude's got a Chad and Cheese t-shirt on under his Oxford. He's incognito from his company. And he said, "Hey guys, I just wanna show you," he's got the shirt. So we got him on social media. We still have a few more hours here at the show. I'm sure we'll run into more people. But yeah... Chad: Of course. Joel: Love seeing old friends. But that list there for me was a special list of thank yous and shoutouts. Chad: Yes, that's amazing. Shoutout to Loom for getting acquired. Joel: Yeah. Let's get into some of the news here. Yeah. Chad: Fucking, almost a billion dollars. [laughter] Who would have thought? Little Loom. I mean, seriously. Joel: Little Loom. Chad: Little Loom. Joel: Little Loom. Chad: A billion dollars. Joel: Yeah. We had some people come over and say hi and talk about this. Talk about an un-Moatable business. They're saying like a case of Red Bulls and we could create Loom in about a weekend. So I'm not sure if that billion dollars... They must have one hell of a roster of clients that are using it or have some really interesting plans. Chad: They've got great adoption though. I mean they've always... I think Loom... And again, to kind of like be first to the show gives you that advantage. And I would assume they've got a hell of a portfolio, not just from a Fortune 500 or Fortune 1000, Fortune 2000, but just dudes like you and I going and doing the transactional side of the house. So they've got the transactional, and then they've got the big account. So I would assume that they were worth it. Joel: Yeah. They were one of the sort of... Everyone was talking about Zoom back in the pandemic and Loom was kind of quietly, were this remote demo, take customers through the product solution that I guess sort of flew under the radar until now when someone wrote a big check for them. So shoutout to Loom for sure. Chad: Talking about big checks. Should we talk about a big check? Joel: Big decks. Chad: Oh yes. Joel: Checks and decks, yes. Stay tuned for some great episodes from our time live here at the Fuel50 booth at HR Tech. I have a shoutout for Candidate.fyi, not candy-date. It's actual candidate, how you spell it with FYI. So these guys, it's an ex-Googler, and I know that the history of ex-Googlers creating companies in our industry aren't great, but these guys are creating... It's kind of a secret project, but they raised a pre-seed of $1.3 million, which isn't too shabby. Chad: That's legit. Yeah. Joel: Pretty legit. They're in invite-only mode. So if you're interested in checking it out everybody, you gotta go to... Chad: That is always so sexy when they do that. Joel: Yeah. People love the scarcity. They wanna get into the party. The velvet rope is always attractive to people. So Candidate.fyi, if you wanna go check that out. Apparently, it's creating experiences during the hiring and interviewing process, which sounds very Gen Z to me. I'm excited to see what the hell this thing is gonna be, but shoutout to creating some mystery. Chad: Yeah. Who knows. It could be gerbils on a wheel for all the fuck we know. Joel: Some mystery from an ex-Googler. Candidate.fyi, everybody. Should we get into some real new stories? Chad: Yes. I wanna talk about money. Here's some money... Joel: Let's talk about money. So the big story this week, Chad and Cheese sponsor, Harri, that's H-A-R-R-I, has raised 43... Chad: Can I buy a vowel? Joel: Yes, you can. You can buy a vowel. Vanna's been sick lately. I don't know if you've seen this. Chad: Yes. Joel: She's got the COVID. Well, that's what they're saying anyway. Chad: That's not good. Joel: She's been out a while. Chad: That's not good. Joel: Anyway, get well soon. Chad: Yes. She's not a young buck. Joel: Still hot 40 years later. [laughter] Alright. Yeah, no spring chicken. Okay, so our friends at Harri have raised $43 million in a Series B round. This brings total funding to $112.2 million. Chad: Wait a minute, wait a minute. I think I see one of the... Is that Jack? I think that's the... Jack, come here. Come here, Jack. Wait a minute. We've got another... Joel: This is the luxury of the live show, everybody. Chad: Oh, this is amazing. Joel: We get to just pull in... Chad: Come on, take a seat, man. Take a seat. Joel: Pull in high-profile, highly paid executives... Chad: Look at that. I mean, look at his jacket for God's sake. Joel: Randomly hanging out. So I could say the news, but why don't we hear it from you? What's going on at Harri with the release this week? Jack: I'll keep it tight. Chad: Keep it tight. [laughter] Jack: Not a lot. Not a lot, actually. Yeah. No, we've got a lot going on in the platform, but we're excited to announce our Series B raise. We raised $43 million, fueling growth and super excited. So led by Atalaya Capital Management who's a credit-oriented fund and follow-on investment from Golub Growth, who's been a great partner for us. They were in our A round and now they're in our B round as well. So yeah, a lot of stuff going on, fully capitalized. Money, or cookies are in the bank, as we say. And yeah, we're super excited to let... Chad: So what are you gonna spend that money on? Wait, what are we doing? Joel: Hold on real quick. Chad: What are we doing? Joel: What's the valuation now? [laughter] Chad: Wait a minute. Jack: So we're not disclosing valuation, not disclosing... [music] [laughter] Jack: This is gotcha, right? No, we are... [laughter] Joel: Have you heard our show? Jack: Yeah, of course. No, we're excited. It's a nice up round for us, especially in this market... Chad: Yeah. Joel: To be able to announce an up round, not disclosing valuation, but again, with Atalaya, super excited for the partnership. They've got very deep pockets and are gonna continue to invest in us, we believe. Chad: Amen. That sounds nice. Joel: What are you gonna do? What are you gonna build? How many more people are you gonna hire? What geo-targeted... [overlapping conversation] Joel: World domination... [overlapping conversation] Chad: Are we taking over other countries? Yes, what's going on? Jack: So the mantra for us is capital efficiency. So we're bringing in 43 million, but we're gonna be... Joel: You must be the CFO, capital efficiency. Jack: Smartly deploying that capital. Joel: Let's put everyone to sleep. Jack: Yeah. [laughter] Joel: Capital efficiency. Jack: If you've ever met a banker around here, they probably tell you the same thing. But we've been trying to avoid them. Yeah. So our platform particularly around talent acquisition is really well-bulletproofed. Workforce management, which is the second sort of product that we launched, has a little bit of work to go, so we're gonna deeply invest in that system of record, system of operations, contiguous data flow, all that costs money to build. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Yep. Jack: And so we're gonna continue to invest in the platform. Our go-to market team continues to scale. And as you guys know, I'm sure many other SaaS companies, particularly in the HR space, go-to market is challenging right now. Chad: Yeah. Jack: The deal cycles are taking longer. There's more decision makers at the table. And so we find that investing in go-to market... Joel: Money's not free anymore, from what I hear. Jack: Money is not free. And yeah, so when the decision is a five and a quarter T-bond or open up your wallet and invest in the companies, there's some real decision-making... Chad: Yeah. Jack: Process that goes into that. So, which is another reason why we're so thrilled to get this thing behind us. Markets are gonna continue to be crunched. Capital's gonna continue to be scarce. So yes, we're happy for it to be behind us, but companies who are coming to market now, they're gonna have some challenges, we think. Chad: How many countries are you guys in right now? Jack: So we primarily operate in the US and the UK. When customers pull us into more markets, we'll go with them. So we're across, I think, 25 countries now. Chad: Is that the expansion? I mean, is that the expansion strategy? Because as you get those bigger clients, they're gonna drag you into... Jack: That's exactly right, yeah. Chad: Yeah. Jack: So the large enterprise system tends to be concentrated in one country, but then they'll pull throughout. Chad: Yeah. Jack: Especially the franchise space that we operate in and large hotel chains, so Radisson for example, have pulled us across mainland Europe. And we're exploring things in APAC. APAC is very difficult to do business in in some of the countries. And so we... Chad: Can't imagine. Joel: It'll get easier with all the peace time... Jack: Yeah. Sure, sure, sure, sure. Joel: That's all going around. Jack: Yeah. There's nothing going on over there right now, but we try to move with our customers. So that's regional expansion. Vertical expansion's sort of the same. We're not actively approaching new verticals, but if verticals come to us and are interested in taking our product with very limited new dev... Chad: Yeah. Jack: We're happy to engage in those conversations. Chad: So focused. Jack: Exactly right. Yes. Joel: So, you mentioned Radisson, your press release talks about McDonald's, Subway. For those out there that don't exactly know what Harri does, what are you doing for a McDonald's or a Subway? Jack: So our elevator pitch is we are the end-to-end human experience platform focused on the frontline worker and vertically focused in the hospitality industry. Hospitality for us means restaurants and hotels primarily. Joel: Yep. Chad: And so for McDonald's, for example, we're gonna be their workforce management system and we will... Time and attendance, scheduling and compliance is big in our industry. Joel: Sure. Chad: Oh yeah. Jack: So we have a layer of compliance that weaves through both talent acquisition and workforce management that helps our clients defray the risk of significant litigation and regulatory risk. Joel: And will the new money, the new funding, will you expand that? Will you look at healthcare, any of those other sort of high frequency? Chad: He said focused. [laughter] Joel: Well, I'm just poking the bear to see... Jack: Making sure we're listening. The healthcare industry right now, it's a buzzword... Joel: Yep. Jack: Particularly in SaaS. We believe hospital, healthcare, and acute healthcare is a very difficult market to operate in. Chad: Yeah. Jack: And we're not necessarily interested in expanding there. Non-hospital, non-acute healthcare, nursing homes and things along those lines, we're exploring and dipping our toes in. We're not interested in big bang vertical expansion. We go into a vertical very focused... Chad: Yeah. Jack: Ensure that we can actually operate there... Chad: Nice. Chad: And there's not regulation that we don't know about, and then we'll double down. So some of the money will likely eventually go into new vertical expansion, but smartly focused deliberately. Joel: No banging, Chad. No big banging... Chad: No big banging. Joel: Is what I'm hearing. Chad: I don't know. Joel: What else do you wanna say about Harri or what's going on with the funding? Are you looking for more money? Is the IPO coming? What breaking news do you wanna drop on us today? Jack: Let us pop the corks first, please. So we closed our round on Friday. We announced it on Tuesday of this week, as you guys know. So we have no plans to raise additional capital at this point. We're gonna take that 43 very deliberately invested, and at some point in the future, perhaps there's an opportunity for additional liquidity or capital market transactions. But we're gonna enjoy it for now at least. I mean, we're in Vegas, so yeah. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Yeah. So you're gonna throw some on the blackjack table is what I'm hearing. Jack: That's right. Well, if you put it... Yeah. If we double up quick, then we'll never have to come back, right? Chad: Then it'd be fun, yes. Jack: But as a fiduciary, of course, we're not doing that. [laughter] Joel: He's good. He's good. He needs to be on the mic more often. Jack: We do, we do. Joel: Fiduciary, capital efficiency. Jack: Yeah, too many buzzwords. If you walk around here long enough, you'll hear them all. [laughter] Joel: He's sexy. He's sexy. S?: Unfortunately, Jack's not a... Joel: More big bang, less capital efficiency. For our listeners who wanna know more about Harri or the raise, where do you send them? Jack: Harri.com or reach out to us directly on any of our social platforms. Chad: Excellent. Joel: And that is H-A-R-R-I... Jack: Correct. Joel: Not Y dot com. Jack: Yes. Chad: And it's busy for you. I know you've got all this money coming in. You've got all these people who wanna talk to you. We appreciate you stopping by... Jack: Yeah. Chad: And actually taking a little time with us. Jack: Of course. Joel: Too much money's better than not enough money. Right? [laughter] Jack: That's right. Joel: As a fiduciary. Jack: Exactly right. I appreciate it, guys. Thanks for your time. Joel: Alright, man. Get out of here. Enjoy the show. Go make some more money. Chad: Later, dude. Joel: What a nice guy. Chad: I know. Joel: The British companies always have such nice... Chad: They do. Joel: Cerebral folks that always like... It's the Scots that we have to worry about. The Scots are the ones that... Chad: Oh, they're the ones we have to worry about. Joel: Drag it down. Chad: I don't know about that. Okay. Joel: Thank God. Okay. So that's Harri. Do you wanna take a quick break? Chad: Yep. Joel: Maybe hydrate a little bit? Chad: Yeah. Joel: And we'll come back and talk about some more news from the industry at HR Tech, Fuel50 booth. We are back here from HR Tech live. Chad: Oh, I need some water. Joel: Day two and a half. Chad: Need water. Joel: We're dragging a little bit. Dragging a little bit. Now, there's no rest for us because we head out to Europe when we get home for the UNLEASH... Chad: Ooh, yeah. Joel: In Paris. Somebody... Chad: Everybody feels so bad for us right now. Joel: Yeah. Chad: "Oh, they're turnaround. Oh, they're going to Paris." Joel: "Oh, Portugal." Chad: "Oh." Yeah. I don't know. Joel: "Oh, Switzerland pit stops. Oh my... " Chad: We do this for you, people. Joel: Yes. Chad: We do this for you. Joel: All the wine is for you. Our death by liver pollution is all to you, people. Chad: Amen. Amen. Joel: To you, people. Okay. So I had a news item from the Shred. By the way, the Shred was loaded this week. Chad: Really? Joel: Loaded with a lot of like one million, two million... Chad: Like your nachos are usually? [laughter] Joel: That's good. That's not bad. That's not bad. And my potatoes, by the way. Chad: Oh, yeah, loaded potatoes. Yeah. Joel: And my soups and... Yeah, pretty much everything I like loaded. But yeah, if you haven't listened to the Shred, it's only subscribers to the podcast. You can only listen to it on a... Chad: Yeah. You don't have to pay for it. You don't have to pay for it. Joel: Platform, podcast platform. You don't have to pay for it. Chad: No. Joel: But anyway, a lot of news this week, a lot of funding and whatnot, but one that stood out to me, and I'm gonna withhold the name... Chad: Okay. Joel: 'Cause I really just wanna talk about the name, but the news is pretty significant to resist. Chad: Okay, go ahead. Joel: So this is a Middle East company, which we don't talk about very often. Chad: No. Joel: They closed a $30 million Series A funding round, marking the largest Series A investment for a software as a service company in the Middle East, which I think is pretty significant. Chad: Okay. They've got money over there. Joel: So they provide HR tech solutions such as recruitment, management and payroll processing, pretty much one of those platform to rule them all. Chad: Yeah. Joel: They have over 3,000 clients. They've been around since 2016 and have about 200 employees. Now, that's pretty cool news. Chad: Yes. Joel: But I wanna talk about their name. Chad: Okay. Joel: Their name is Jisr. J-I-S-R. Chad: Oh. Joel: Who is making these company names like Spits and Jisr? [laughter] Joel: When they come to the US, how hard is that for salespeople to say, "Hi, this is Joe from Jisr"? Chad: Yeah. Joel: "I'm sorry, what?" Chad: Yeah, yeah. "Excuse me?" Joel: "Jisr?" Chad: "Excuse me?" Joel: "Jisr." Chad: "Excuse me?" Joel: "Jisr." Chad: "Jisr. What?" Joel: "I'm sorry." Chad: No. Joel: "We don't want any." "What?" [laughter] Joel: Anyway, so big news... The Middle East obviously is a hot zone. Chad: Yes. Joel: We obviously would love to see companies, more capitalism, more commerce, more... Chad: Yep. Joel: More capital flow into the Middle East. This is a great story not just for companies in the Middle East, but the fact that this is a human capital company... Chad: Yes. Joel: In the vein of like, maybe an Andela, HiBob, et cetera. The Middle East is an interesting place to be. Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: And this funding round certainly showcases that. Chad: So much news, man. So much news. Joel: "This is Chad with Jisr. How are you?" Chad: Oh, God. Ugh. [laughter] Chad: I just don't get it. Joel: I don't get it either. Chad: I just don't get it. Joel: The names of these companies. Names of these companies. Chad: Anyway, moving on. Jesus. Joel: Yes, yes. What else do you wanna talk about? Chad: We really didn't get a chance because we've been here in the Fuel50 booth... Joel: Yeah. Chad: Doing some pretty amazing interviews. I was very surprised, let's just say that. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Because usually, we'll get interviews that are thrown at us and we have to kinda like... We have to do a lot of work to make them good interviews. Not this time. I mean, Fuel50 gave us some really good, I mean, good people to talk to. Joel: Yeah. Chad: So we're gonna be having some of those and they're like 15 to 20-minute podcast episodes that are gonna be coming out over the next few months. Look for those. Joel: And the topics are a variety of... Chad: Oh, very much. Joel: Specifics, EOC, AI, big data. We had capital people that are giving money to these companies, writing checks. Chad: Yeah. Joel: So it was a really nice variety of interviews that we did... Chad: Yeah. Joel: This week. I wanna talk a little bit about some of the conversations we've had with some of the head, the higher-ups at some of these companies. One in particular, and we won't mention names, was really painting a dark dire picture for towards the end of October. [laughter] Chad: That's because he was around during 2007. I'm not, I'm not. Joel: Don't give it away. You're gonna give too many clues... Chad: He's been around since... Joel: To who said this. Chad: 2007. Joel: Which makes his opinion... Chad: Yes. Joel: Have some weight. Chad: Important. Joel: Yes. Chad: Important. Joel: Do... Chad: Indicators. Joel: Are you seeing... Are you envisioning some dark days ahead? Do you think that's a little bit of hyperbole? What's your take? Chad: I think any founder who is not thinking that there are dark days ahead is one that's gonna spend way too much fucking money. Right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: And right now, from what we're seeing, and what I'm actually hearing from founders around check writers is they're actually writing checks now... Joel: Yep. Chad: Is that Q4 is starting to open up, it's starting to kinda like they've opened up the wall a little bit more. Joel: Yep. Chad: And I think what's happened is that we've heard in the news all this, "Hard times are coming, get ready." Joel: Yeah. Chad: Recession, recession, recession. And everybody just... They just tighten up, right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: Everybody tightens up. And then they're not spending money. Now, since it hasn't happened, the Fed has done a goddamn good job, right? I wish we had more tools... Joel: Yesh. Chad: Than just raising fucking interest rates. But other than that, they've done a good job. And now I feel like fourth quarter's coming around, there's still money to be spent. There's still money to be spent. Joel: Yes. Chad: Fans everywhere. Fans everywhere. Joel: Yeah. It's warm and fuzzy here at the... This is why we love to travel. This will never be replaced by VR either. One of the things here from the show that I wanted to talk about in terms of negativity on the show... Chad: Yeah. Joel: Is a lack of buyers, a lack of people who are looking to buy... Chad: Are they here? Joel: Yeah, at the conference. Chad: Yeah. Joel: I guess we're talking about HR Tech in this segment of The Weekly Show. But if there's one negative... And I would say that we both agree that it's a good crowd. Traffic's been steady. I don't know if it's pre-pandemic levels at this point... Chad: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Joel: But clearly, things are loosening up. There are buyers here, but it doesn't seem like there are enough of them. One of the creative ideas, and I gotta give credit to our boy, Evan, your friend Evan, Mr. PR whiz, is that they should have a scholarship. HR Tech should have a scholarship where we're gonna bring buyers, we're gonna bring people that write checks, we're gonna pay for their flight, we're gonna pay for their hotel and we're gonna get you, the vendor, more people who are buying products and services as opposed to more or less being a partnership, a raise money, a sell the company kind of show. Should it be more of a buyer show? Chad: I personally don't think so. One of the reasons why I like HR Tech is I know what it is, right? Joel: Yep. Chad: The animal that it is is strategic alliances driving revenue, not just direct to brands, and then also investors, right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: I think that's really the wheelhouse for HR Tech. There are some practitioners here, there's no question, but the big focus is technology and making those deals and making those revenue-generating deals that, again, aren't all direct to employers. So I think every event who wants to be all things to everybody is nothing to anyone, right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: So I think HR Tech is... They're doing well what they do well. If you want practitioners, you're gonna go to UNLEASH, which will be next week, right? If you want practitioners in teams and learning events and all day, all-hands meeting type, you go to RecFest, right? They're different animals. Joel: Yeah. Chad: So yeah, I don't agree with that personally. Joel: I do think saying that though, the content from what I've seen covers everybody. It's not like the sessions are, how to build an API into whatever, or how to get more traffic to your SaaS company. Chad: Yeah. Yeah. Joel: So if you are a decision maker, a buyer, a practitioner out there, I do think there's a credible value. Not... I mean, just the content alone. But also, you should know about these companies. You should know about the technologies that are here because there are some really cool technologies... Chad: They're really a lot. Joel: Really cool experiences. So I know we have a lot of practitioners who listen to our show. HR Tech should be on your radar for sure. Don't just stick with the sherms and don't just stick with... Chad: I do agree. And I think to some extent you can kind of like fly under the radar because most of the companies who've been here, most of the vendors who've been here understand the animal of HR tech, right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: And then as a practitioner, you can come in and you can learn, and there's not as much kind of like pressure on you. "Are you a check writer? Are you a check writer?" You know what I mean? Joel: Yeah. Chad: Because the whole intent of the team that they send isn't really focused on sales to direct employers. Joel: Yeah. And I think it's a lesson for... You and I love the Startup Alley or whatever the hell they call it. This is a kiosk. You get a little bit of real estate. But these are the most energetic, passionate, excited companies out there. I think maybe they come to the show thinking we're gonna sell a bunch of stuff. And you need to pivot your expectation. This isn't a, we're gonna sell 50 grand of stuff. This is a, you're gonna get your name out there in the community. You're gonna build relationships and integrations with companies. So maybe that's where a lot of the pushback comes. The old veterans, the Paradoxes, the iCIMS... Chad: Oh, they know. Oh, they know. Joel: They know that they're not gonna get a huge ROI. They're gonna build brand and touch base with people... Chad: Exactly. Joel: And a great time to do that in a place like Vegas. Long story short, we're gonna keep coming back... Chad: Oh fuck, yeah. Fuck, yeah. Joel: To this conference because we love it so damn much. Chad: And again, thanks to Fuel50 for allowing us to crash, gave us a nice place. Look at these comfy chairs. I mean, it's good time. Joel: I need a comfy chair, Chad. Chad: You do need a comfy chair. Joel: My ass needs a comfy chair. Chad: You're so spoiled, so fucking spoiled, I swear. [laughter] Joel: Alright. So we're... Paris, if you're listening to the show and you're gonna be in Paris, we'll be at the Textkernel booth doing just this. Come by and say hi. Bring us goodies, whatever. My wife is joining me and she loves chocolates. She loves the European chocolates. So feel free to drop some of those by. But otherwise, no rest for the wicked. You and I are headed out to the airport today. I get like a few hours of sleep and then we turn around and head out to Europe. Chad: And I've just been informed we have two more interviews. So we have to wrap this up and get back kids, 'cause you love this shit. Joel: And the good news is this will fill all our stuff staff for the holidays. So I can catch up on all my naps over the holidays. [laughter] Chad: Like he's ever missed a nap. Joel: Yeah, never missed a nap. Chad, this has been a fun week. I'm excited for Paris, but this has been great. Another one in the can. S?: We out. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese Podcast, or maybe you cheated and fast-forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back, valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey, or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back like an awful train wreck, you can't look took away. And like Chad's favorite western, you can't quit them either. We out.

When Google launched their job search engine, dubbed Google for Jobs, a lot of people scoffed, remembering past failures from the world’s largest search engine dipping its toes into employment. Hello, Google Base and Google for Hire? Well, no one’s scoffing now. Google seems to be all-in, with a pay-per-click (PPC) offering coming soon. Optimizing for search results can be challenging. That’s why we invited Alexander Chukovski, founder at Crypto Careers, to take a look at the ins and outs of optimizing for Google when job postings are in play. Crypto Careers connects professionals and businesses building digital assets and blockchain technology, so Alexander knows how to tackle the tough segments. If your jobs are on Google - and they probably are - then this is an episode you don’t want to miss. TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts, complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel Cheesman: Oh yeah. It's your high school gym teacher's favorite podcast, AKA the Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheesman and joined as always, the O to my J, Chad Sowash is in the house. And we are happy to welcome Alexander Chukovski. Chad Sowash: Oh, he's excited. Joel Cheesman: Founder at Crypto Careers. Alexander Chukovski: Guten Tag. Joel Cheesman: Alexander, Guten Tag. Chad Sowash: Long-time listener, first-time caller. [laughter] Alexander Chukovski: Yes. Thank you for having me. Such an honor. Joel Cheesman: And what bunker are you calling in from for the podcast? [laughter] Alexander Chukovski: Oh man. I'm calling from this weird country called Bulgaria. Probably no one has heard of it. It's somewhere in Eastern Europe, around Turkey, Greece, somewhere there. Just pick up a map. Joel Cheesman: Pick up a map. Yeah, I'll go to Borders and get me a map and find... [laughter] Chad Sowash: I love that Alexander thinks that Americans are so stupid, they don't know Bulgaria is a country. [laughter] Joel Cheesman: Pick up on that. Chad Sowash: I appreciate that, Alexander. Joel Cheesman: So Alexander, they don't know Bulgaria and they probably don't know you, so let's get a little Twitter bio about you and what makes Alexander tick. Alexander Chukovski: Alright. So I run niche job boards in Web3, crypto and soon AI, and at the same time, I consult companies in the HR tech space around topics like SE optimization, Google jobs optimization, job classification with machine learning, AI programmatic job advertising, product development, anything you can think of for HR tech. And before that, I don't know, I worked in all kinds of roles in TA tech. I've been in this industry for 15 years. Chad Sowash: Why? Why'd you get into this industry? Why? Why, why, why... Alexander Chukovski: Oh man. Chad Sowash: Poor kid. Alexander Chukovski: Oh, it was just pure chance. I didn't know that this industry actually existed. So I started working as a student at a German job board called Experteer in 2007. So think about that. And Experteer was a paid membership, only white collar, high-salary jobs. Something like the Ladders, but cool. I promise you. It was cool. [laughter] Hey, what's happening to the Ladders? Do these guys still exist? Joel Cheesman: Who gives a shit? People in the US are listening and they hear Crypto Careers, this dude in the eastern block and they think shady as hell. So help us, bring us back to some level of legitimacy with crypto, it gets a bad rep, blockchain. Get us up-to-speed why we should trust this industry and what you're doing. Alexander Chukovski: Well, Crypto Careers is like the top three job boards in crypto. It's been around for five years now. We have had over, I don't know, 25,000 jobs. People think that the crypto industry is very shady. And I mean, partially it's true, [laughter] but whenever... Joel Cheesman: But not you. Alexander Chukovski: You're in a bull market. No, not me. But whenever you're in a bull market, hiring just explodes. And we built it a little bit from a job board to like a placement agency. It's been going great. So, there's a lot of money to be made. Joel Cheesman: So I would guess it spiked in '20 to '22 and it's crashed since then. Am I wrong about that? Is there still a hot, hot stove for crypto jobs and careers? Alexander Chukovski: It's picking up right now again. Joel Cheesman: Okay. Alexander Chukovski: So in summer it was pretty bad, pretty dire. But now jobs are still coming in. I think we have about 5,000 jobs open in crypto companies around the world. So at the top of the market cycle, I would say it was 10,000 in 2022. That was like the best time. Chad Sowash: So hyper niche. Alexander Chukovski: It was amazing. Chad Sowash: Hyper niche, which is to be quite frank, not a bad place to be because there aren't gonna be many competitors that are out there, obviously. Top three. Top three. That's awesome. But today kids, we're talking about Google for Jobs. That's what we're talking about. Why? Because Alexander knows a little bit about this, okay. So Alex, let's talk a little bit about a basic intro for Google for Jobs. What is it for anybody who's been locked up in a closet for the past five years? A little bit about the basics of Google for Jobs right out of the gate. Alexander Chukovski: Alright. So if you're a recruitment marketing professional, I would say this is this nice thing out there where if you play well with Google, you put some schema on your jobs, they'll send you high quality converting job seeker traffic to your jobs for free. So you're not paying anything for that. You just have to play by the rules, optimize them a little bit and you get traffic. And if you're a job seeker, it's just this thing that pops up after the sponsored search results when you type in something like retail jobs near me. So, it gets a lot of attention from job seekers, right? And people are really focused on optimizing this 'cause it's really good traffic. Joel Cheesman: So if I could add to that, historically, you searched sales jobs in Google and you would get a bunch of links to websites that have sales jobs on their websites. Alexander Chukovski: Hopefully. Joel Cheesman: Today I search sales jobs, it automatically locates where I am and gives me the actual job listings and then where I can go to apply to those jobs. So it's basically vertical search takes out some of the middlemen of the job board going to that site, you can go directly to the job posting. Just wanted to add that. And you've been putting your jobs on Google for Jobs since it began, 2017? Alexander Chukovski: Yeah, pretty much. The crypto job board has been there since start. It's been going pretty well. Joel Cheesman: And I know Chad and I, when it first came out, I was like, "This is kind of shitty." [laughter] Talk about what it was then and how it's evolved and maybe where it needs to go from here to even improve from now. Alexander Chukovski: Oh, man. I can write a book about this one. But [laughter], let's focus... Chad Sowash: I think you have already on LinkedIn. Jesus Christ. [laughter] Alexander Chukovski: Yeah. So I mean, in the beginning, everyone thought that Google is going to go all-in in recruiting 'cause they had an ATS, they had a job-matching product and they had Google Jobs, and then suddenly they got slapped with this monopoly suit from 2017 and that was confirmed in 2019. And pretty much the whole team disband. Everyone left. And then Google Jobs... Chad Sowash: That's not the reason why they did it, but yeah, that was external pressure. They did it because they were short on resources and Google Cloud was gonna make a hell of a lot more money than fucking job postings. Joel Cheesman: Yep. Alexander Chukovski: Yeah. And some of the key people left and then they joined other companies. Yeah. But eventually there were a lot of promises and I think all of us went to conferences and were like really scared what these guys are gonna do. And I would say when it comes to what they promised to build, we're probably halfway there. They do release new stuff now and then. There was a large update, I think October, 2022 when they introduced new metadata into the schema. So if you follow these, these are of course, nice ways to optimize your performance. But to me, it feels like the product is stuck in 2019. That's where it is, unfortunately. So there was always this existential threat that they're just gonna turn it off. But I think we're past this point now. I think it's here to stay. Chad Sowash: So talk about your clients, what you're seeing, traction. I mean, is it even worth it? Because I remember back in the day, and this is, I think even before 2007, I could be wrong, but Google Base came out and they were asking everybody to put their jobs in the system... Joel Cheesman: Spam. [chuckle] Chad Sowash: And then it just... It was spammy, it was nasty, it was horrible. So tell us what you're seeing through the data that you're collecting from your clients. 'Cause that's the big key right now. Alexander Chukovski: I think the big key is that if you already have a good domain ranking, technical SEO is fine, you're most likely getting traffic and that's good. And there are always like ways to optimize this. So you can probably get a few clicks per job per month on top of it. S?: Yeah. Alexander Chukovski: What got really hard in time was that if you have a lot of jobs, from let's say Appcast or Zip Recruiter or like any type of backfill and you try to push this into Google Jobs unless you have like very high domain ranking, it gets really hard to get indexed, right? So today if I start a new job board, get a feed from Appcast and then just start blasting them into Google Jobs, probably not gonna get any traffic at all. I mean, it depends a little bit on the country and a little bit on the niche and if you have a little bit of content on the site, but it got really, really hard, especially in the US. Chad Sowash: Duplication is hard. Joel Cheesman: Is that because the algorithm is really good at your site, is nothing and this is duplicate content, and so you're not gonna go show up? Or is it because users didn't click on options that they didn't trust? They're clicking on LinkedIn and Indeed and the corporate site? What was it that pushed out the spam? Alexander Chukovski: I think it's a combination of both. So on the one hand, Google rolled out these E-A-T rules on content quality. So if you start a job board today that doesn't have any content at all, like zero blog posts, no contact, no about us page, you're actually probably not going to get indexed at all. Just forget about the jobs for a second. And that's kind of what made it hard on the one hand. And on the other hand, I mean, Google tracks every click, they know what people like to visit, they know where the high domain rankings are. They're not going to send people to some shady websites. Alexander Chukovski: I think probably the beginning of 2020, there was this one company that got a very nice site. So they were blasting Appcast jobs into Google jobs from hundreds of sub-domains from these small local radio and TV stations in the US. That worked for a while. They probably made a lot of money. But Google found out about this and they killed it. So today I would say cheating is really, really hard. What I see is that if you try to send a lot of sponsor jobs from Appcast, because they have very short life cycles, they come in for two hours, then they disappear, Google thinks about it as a spam, and then they're just gonna cut you off and you're going to get zero traffic. That's what I see. Chad Sowash: So from the standpoint of actually getting traffic, and then also let's just talk about SEO at first. Indeed got SEO really, really quickly at really high ranking on the search pages. We find out later the attribution was the amount of content that they... Not just the amount of content, but how quickly they were getting rid of old and pushing in new. Right? So they were like firing off feeds to Google, new jobs to Google very regularly where many other sites would do it like maybe once every 24 hours. Right? So it was very fresh content. And that's what Google saw, which is one of the reasons why Indeed boosted up the rankings. Today with Google for Jobs, is that... Do you think that's a part of the algorithm too? And talk about the traction and type of traffic that your job sites are actually seeing and your client job sites are seeing? Is it worth it? Alexander Chukovski: I mean, let's put it this way. If you have a good domain ranking and you are not on Google Jobs yet and you have some good content, so let's say stuff like long tail jobs, jobs from direct employers, jobs that don't have a schema that it's kind of hard to find. And if you push this into Google and you play by the rules and you have some good technical SEO, you will get traffic. It's gonna work out. It's gonna be really nice for you. But if you don't have this and you have zero good content on the side, zero blog articles, it's just not gonna work. Google sees this and for them it's just another job site. Why should they give you traffic? Why should they send a job seeker to you and not to Indeed or any of the other guys that are already proven? Joel Cheesman: So early on, Indeed said no to putting their jobs on Google for Jobs. They've obviously reversed that trend. What are you seeing in terms of your own traffic? Is Indeed funneling a lot of folks from Google to Indeed? And also, we thought when this came out that the corporate site would be sort of the king in terms of where people went to apply to the job. However, that sometimes ends up in a 45-minute painful experience of applying to a job whereas Indeed, LinkedIn who I already have an account, it's a lot easier. What are you seeing in terms of where are people going and your response to Indeed getting into the game? Alexander Chukovski: There's a lot of inconsistencies, right? So Google introduced this direct apply thing which if you read it carefully, does really not fit into Indeed's apply flow because they ask for your registration in order to send you to jobs. Chad Sowash: Yeah, mandatory registration. Yeah. Alexander Chukovski: Yeah. So why do they still rank? But they rank very high because they have very high domain ranking. That's one of the key factors out there. So they're very good on technical SEO and they're kind of riding on this. And that works very well for them. It's not gonna work for other people that are just joining in right now, the party. They are... They're too late for that. Chad Sowash: To Joel's point, do you think that Google right now is weighting the experience higher than original content? Because to be quite frank, they should be weighting all of the content that's coming from corporate career sites much higher than any job board. 'Cause that's the original content. That's where the job actually originates. Alexander Chukovski: Yeah, but what is the applicant flow on the original application form, right? Chad Sowash: Well, that's the question is, is it experience? And I know I'm talking to a job board guy and all, [laughter] but it's the experience versus the original content, right? And if I'm just looking at trying to make it easy apply for job seekers to go in and just apply to jobs to a job board versus the original content to the actual brand who's doing the hiring, it seems like Google right now is weighted more toward the experience than original content. And that's not where Google's always been, right? They've always weighted original content much higher. So why is that? Alexander Chukovski: I guess we scrape Google, right? We scrape Google Jobs and we see who ranks where for certain search terms, also for my clients, in order to know how they perform. And the truth is that job boards rule right now. It's not the ATS. It's not the career page. It's the job board that rules. And I guess it's just that some job boards offer a better application flow than these career pages. That's kind of my takeaway. Not all of them, right? Workday, [laughter] not really, but Greenhouse, Lever, pretty nice sites, very easy to apply. They do rank very well, but again, Indeed, Zip, they decimate all these results. So they get a lot of traffic. Joel Cheesman: I mean, tell me if I'm right or wrong on this, is that if I'm a job seeker, I don't know Greenhouse from ICIMS, from Smart Recruiters, from anyone else. So to me, clicking on the corporate site is a box of chocolates. I might get a quick apply, but it also might just be... It might waste my whole afternoon. So if I know LinkedIn, I know Indeed, I know Zip, I've applied through there, I know it takes this amount of time, so to me, it's like, I know what I'm getting with Indeed and LinkedIn. I don't know what I'm getting if I click Salesforce.com or Eli Lilly or a corporate site. Am I right on that or no? Alexander Chukovski: You're absolutely right on that. I see it the same way. And you already have your data on Indeed. You already have your profile. So you just know it's like one click apply and you're done. Why should you go to this weird page that it's called Workday? Joel Cheesman: Yeah. Alexander Chukovski: What is that? Why would you apply there? So ATSs have lost the battle for sure. Joel Cheesman: Which is a shame. Can they come back or are they screwed forever? Chad Sowash: Well, first off, let's clarify this. I don't think the ATSs have lost the battle. I think the HR department and talent acquisition has lost the battle because they took something that was simple, the ATS apply process, and they've created this mon-fucking-strosity of an apply process of saying, "No, we need to have this and we need to have that." This should be a signal to all talent acquisition and recruiting professionals that you guys fucked this up. [laughter] The applicant tracking system did it. Joel Cheesman: Yeah. Alexander Chukovski: Yeah. But I don't have any ATSs as clients or employers that are interested in Google Jobs optimization. [laughter] Alexander Chukovski: So let's leave it like that. Joel Cheesman: Well, what sucks is a few bad apples ruin it for everybody because some of them are doing it right. But if a job seeker doesn't know what they're getting into, they're just not gonna go 'cause it's uncharted waters for them in most cases. Alexander Chukovski: Although there is this guy, I don't know if you know, Jerry Lee's like an influencer, career coach type of guy on Instagram, does these crazy videos, "Apply 200 jobs in two minutes" and stuff like that. That's kind of his niche. And he's actually doing a lot of advertisement for Lever and Greenhouse and all the nice ATSs, has two million audience. I think he's helping them, he's helping educate people. So I'll bet that in maybe one year, we'll see that Greenhouse, Lever and some of the other nicer ATSs probably outperform job boards for certain niches that they're very strong. Like crypto, for example, is very Lever and Greenhouse-driven. Chad Sowash: Yeah. Alexander Chukovski: They get a lot of traffic. So we compete with them. I don't compete with Indeed on Google Jobs. Not at all. I compete with Greenhouse and Lever. Chad Sowash: So a quick commercial, 'cause Alex and I are both advisors for this company. I think CV Wallet will probably be the heir apparent 'cause we really need... And this is something that Taleo tried back in the day, they had the universal resume, right? And because they were so big, they thought they could pull it off. The problem is nobody else wanted to use it because Taleo, much like Indeed is today, was the big bully in the room, right? So you need kind of like an honest third party who's out there to be able to provide this type of service. Do you think this could be something that Google actually thinks is attractive, or do you think they even give a shit? Alexander Chukovski: I don't think they really care about it. I think that's a great use case. It's the only use case for blockchain in recruiting. There are no other ones. Whoever tells you this, anything else then just shoot them or run away. But I mean, Google can actually verify people, 'cause most people have a Gmail address. Do you remember the login with Gmail thing? Chad Sowash: Yeah, yeah. Alexander Chukovski: That's a verification. That's a profile verification. So that's kind of a competitor to what we do in this other company that you just advertised. Chad Sowash: The challenge is which Gmail account you wanna use when you verify your identification. [laughter] Alexander Chukovski: BustyLatina69 is mine. [laughter] Joel Cheesman: BBL71. Yeah. Chad Sowash: BigBootyLatina69. Alexander Chukovski: Yeah. Joel Cheesman: Alexander, you're an SEO and it's pretty clear from this interview in the green room that you pay a lot of attention to rankings and what that means to your traffic. Do you have any sense for, if you look for a job on Google for Jobs, you have like maybe three or four job boards that you can choose from, do you have any sense for what that number one position is for traffic versus number two, three, and four? 'Cause I know in SEO for regular results, they know that 97% click that first ranking or that first result, and then it goes down significantly from there. Do you see the same thing with Google for Jobs or is it too early to tell? Alexander Chukovski: It really depends on the country and on the niche. Right? So if we stick with the US, 'cause you don't care about Europe anyway, I would say the first place is really like a hardcore between Zip and Indeed. Joel Cheesman: But do you know what percentage of the clicks go to the first result versus second, what's beside that? Do you have any sense for that right now? Alexander Chukovski: Oh yeah. It's about 80% on the first click. Joel Cheesman: Okay. Alexander Chukovski: 'Cause that's what we always optimize for. We always say that we wanna get clients on the first click and everything else is not important. Joel Cheesman: That's great information. And what do you need to do to get to that first position? Is it an SEO game? Is it like, I need people to click that over everything else? Or both? Alexander Chukovski: It's mostly like an SEO game because it's part of your optimization. It's everything. It's like page speed, it's your current technical SEO, it's your domain ranking, it's your job ads page, how is it structured, anything that... Joel Cheesman: Page of the domain, all kinds. Alexander Chukovski: Page of domain. Yeah. When was the job updated? Joel Cheesman: Yeah. Chad Sowash: So give me an idea. What kind of traffic, from one of your sites or one of your clients' sites, what kind of traffic are they seeing from Google as a percentage from overall traffic? And then also, what kind of boost does a company, if they do this right, what kind of boost could they see from Google for Jobs? Alexander Chukovski: Well, I can give you like direct figures from one of my job sites. So with inventory of about a thousand jobs, only 500 of them are relevant for Google because of location and stuff like that. Chad Sowash: Yeah. Alexander Chukovski: We get about, what is it, 10,000 clicks every three months, organic clicks. Chad Sowash: Okay. Alexander Chukovski: So it's 3,300 clicks per month. Chad Sowash: On 500 jobs. Alexander Chukovski: Yeah, yeah. Chad Sowash: Yeah. 'Cause that's a very small sample size. Right? Alexander Chukovski: A very small sample size. Chad Sowash: Yeah. So that's a lot of clicks on a very small sample size. Joel Cheesman: Yeah. Not too shabby. Alexander Chukovski: Yeah. Then I have another European customer as a comparison. I would say 16,000 jobs in inventory, Northern Europe, probably get about, I would say close to 60,000 clicks a month. So... Chad Sowash: Okay. Alexander Chukovski: Pretty good. But I have a very strong local authority. And then there are these clients that I start working with, they have 200,000 jobs and they get 30 clicks per month. [laughter] Chad Sowash: So, those companies are probably gonna wanna get into Google for Jobs ads. So can you give us kinda like a basic intro into the Google for Jobs ads, the ad product that they came out with? Alexander Chukovski: Yeah. I mean, isn't this a secret? I don't know. Am I allowed to talk? Is Google listening? They're gonna blow up my laptop. Joel Cheesman: They are listening. Chad Sowash: They're always listening. Joel Cheesman: And a lot of people already have signed agreements not to disclose stuff. Alexander Chukovski: Yeah. I mean, I haven't signed anything, so I can just talk. Well, we've been waiting for this since 2016. Probably it's gonna come out in the US around the end of this year. And what we know is that it's just going to be another class of ads, right? It's going to be shown on top of the sponsored job ads, so on top of the sponsored links. So, you have sponsored Google Job ads, then you have sponsored display links, then you have Google Jobs, and then you have organic search. So, very important product. It's going to give you a lot of visibility. It's going to be a direct click out, so no intermediary page. So you can think about that in terms of performance. Chad Sowash: Oh, nice. Alexander Chukovski: And I think it's just going to send ripples through our industry. It's gonna have a huge impact. Joel Cheesman: Have you seen screenshots or things in the wild that would tip you off to that sort of visual? Or is that just your best guess? Alexander Chukovski: Well, we all saw the screenshot from Tom from Appcast. [laughter] Chad Sowash: Yeah. Alexander Chukovski: But if you now browse Google, occasionally there are days where they would alpha test this and beta test this. I think it's now in a beta test stage because I have been able to see a few of them. What's really interesting, in Europe we have this one small fragment on top of the Google jobs results, which says "See similar... Find jobs here and there," and it has the small levels of job boards where you can find jobs. You don't have this in the US, but in the beta of Google job Job ads, you have this in the US. So that's gonna be a major change I think when it comes to capturing the whole search page as a brand. So if you're Indeed, not bad for you. Joel Cheesman: So just to be clear, it'll be at the top of the job search results, there'll be direct links to that job. So it won't be, "Here are the results," and then that first spot, that first link, I assume that would be like paid and it would say ad. That's not what we're looking at. You're not buying the first link in a job posting. You're buying display ads basically, or ads at the top of the search results. Alexander Chukovski: Yeah. You're buying display ads on the top of search results. It's gonna be three or four, like a carousel type of thing. And that probably's gonna be connected to your bidding and what you're willing to bid. It's gonna be the first thing that people see on mobile. Chad Sowash: So if, you know Google Shopping, if you've ever gone through that experience, then they have tried to assimilate that user experience from what I've been told and the screenshots that I've seen. So if you haven't tried Google Shopping, go try it out and then you'll get kind of like a flavor for that. So you have actually said Alex, that you believe that this Google for Jobs ad component is going to be a supreme, supreme product. Why do you think that? Why do you think it's gonna be better than Indeed or any of the other major sites that are out there? Alexander Chukovski: Well, it's probably five reasons, but let's focus on the two main ones. So user intent recognition. If you think about Google Jobs, the way it understands that you're searching for jobs and it knows what kind of jobs you're searching for, this is based on the technology that Google built for job-matching. There was this product in 2017 called Google Cloud Talent-something, I don't anymore. They changed the name so many times. It was a supreme job-matching product, right? So it had a very extensive in-house developed taxonomy, 250,000 occupations, three different layers, 50,000 skills relationships between them. Very good products. No idea why it never actually managed to work out. But... Chad Sowash: Money. Alexander Chukovski: That's what they use on Google Jobs, yeah, to understand what the search intent of users is and to show them corresponding jobs. And that's gonna be the same technology that's going to power Google Job ads. Chad Sowash: My conspiracy theory was they were using that in their large language model. As you started to get all that information from all of those areas and they were pushing in, they were using it in a large language model to be able to actually hone their own algorithm. Joel Cheesman: Conspiracy theory. [laughter] Alexander Chukovski: There's this other theory that they just assume that they can translate the whole thing with natural language... Chad Sowash: Yeah. Alexander Chukovski: And the language models, but it didn't work out. 'Cause labor markets are complex. You cannot just translate them. Chad Sowash: Yeah. Joel Cheesman: Do you anticipate it'll be a penny a click to start and the market will drive prices up from there, similar to how pay-per-click came out in 2002 or '03? Alexander Chukovski: I think that there will be some, let's say, arbitrage opportunities in the markets until everyone really jumps on the opportunity. So definitely money to be made. Joel Cheesman: But do you think Google will charge as little as a penny, or do you think they'll have a higher threshold coming out the gate? Alexander Chukovski: I think it will be higher out of the gate. Joel Cheesman: Okay. Alexander Chukovski: And I mean, they'll do the bidding for you automatically, so yeah. Joel Cheesman: Some people don't know this, but Bing does get a lot of traffic, and they've basically copied the format of what Google's doing. They used to do only LinkedIn 'cause they own them, but now it's a competitive product. Are you getting your jobs onto Bing? Do you have any data on that or experience? Or is there a reason why you're not on it? Alexander Chukovski: Well, I mean, Bing had a nice jump in performance during the whole generative AI phase. That was great. Joel Cheesman: Yeah. Alexander Chukovski: It wore off. So right now it's at the same level as it was before. You can get a couple of clicks. They do have a sponsored job product. But in order to get in, you need cooperation with Microsoft. And no one in Microsoft knows how to actually get in. I've asked so many times. So right now it's probably mostly reserved for LinkedIn. [laughter] Chad Sowash: Imagine that. Imagine that. So let's talk a little bit about impact globally. You talked about before some of the pressures that are actually happening in the global market against Google and they've been fined dramatically, which is... I mean, it's good. It's good for the bully to get smacked around a little bit every now and again. Do you think that this is going to be rolled out carte blanche and then it's gonna be global? Or do you think they're gonna be pretty much dead zones in the globe, like the UK or something like that, where they're just... They really just don't wanna play in that sandbox. Alexander Chukovski: Yeah. I mean, they're probably not going to roll out in France, right? [laughter] No, I mean, joke aside, so US by the end of the year, for sure. UK, I don't see an issue there 'cause UK is not part of the EU anymore. So... Chad Sowash: Yeah. Alexander Chukovski: Who cares? It can go wrong. And then about Europe, I think we'll see a subsequent launch on a country by country way, the same way they did it with Google Jobs. Chad Sowash: Sure. Alexander Chukovski: There was a new lawsuit announced in Denmark against Google, again, because of Google Jobs and some competitiveness and copyright infringement and that kind of stuff. So I think that's probably going to hold them off a little bit 'cause there is a potential lawsuit there. I mean, it's going to be such a great product. If you think about a country like Germany, where people pay €1,600 for a job posting to StepStone and suddenly they have this alternative where for 50 bucks, they can get, I don't know, five amazing job applicants, that's gonna be problematic for some of the job boards. And I'm sure they'll try out something against Google. Joel Cheesman: Speaking of lawsuits, let's talk about Elon Musk real quick. A little bit off-topic, but you listen to our show, you know that X, the artist formerly known as Twitter, is rolling out job postings. Companies that are sort of verified companies can post jobs. I assume those jobs will eventually make it over to Google for Jobs. Have you seen any evidence of that? Just overall thoughts on Twitter/X getting into this game. Alexander Chukovski: Well, obviously, Elon Musk needs money. I mean, that's kind of clear. So he wants to dive into recruitment marketing. I haven't seen anything on Google Jobs. And I think Twitter is becoming a more closed platform now. So the whole tweet indexing anyway is a hard stuff. So imagine getting jobs indexed. That's gonna be even harder. But I don't know. I just don't see it as a big game changer in our industry. All the problems that I can think of with regards to your brand to advertise on Twitter, why would you do that? That's like suicide. Chad Sowash: Yeah. Alexander Chukovski: God, I hope he's not gonna sue me. [laughter] Joel Cheesman: The guy from Crypto Careers says putting your shit on Twitter is a bad move, everybody. [laughter] Chad Sowash: Well, Alex, we could talk to you all day, my friend, but we're gonna cut it off here. We're gonna have you back when this is all real, it's live, it's not alpha, beta, any of that stuff. But until then, if listeners wanna connect with you, where would you send them? Alexander Chukovski: Just go on LinkedIn, type in Alexander Chukovski and connect with me. Joel Cheesman: Alexander, stay out of my search history. Chad, that is another one in the can. We out. Chad Sowash: We out. Outro: Wow, look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast-forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back, valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey, or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite western, you can't quit them either. We out.

This episode could've been a double album it's so full of amazing content ... Chad & Cheese: The White Album, if you will. We're talkin' layoffs at Snagajob and Meta, Indeed telling customers, "There's nothing to see here," LinkedIn embracing its inner Guns 'n' Roses, OpenAI taking aim at Apple's iPhone, Tesla getting nervous about the UAW strike, Who'd Ya' Rather with Hiring Branch and Transfr and Chipotle's "cobotics," collaborative robots that work with, rather than replace, humans. It's a nice compliment to Chipotle’s Chippy and Autocado automation. Drink it all in, because the boys are travelin' for the next 2 weeks, so we made sure this one was the Big Mac of podcast episodes. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps forward thinking employers create world class hiring and retention programs for people with disabilities. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Oh, yeah. We sail around the world and go port to port every time. Hey kids, you are listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. This is your co-host, Joel, bags-packed, Cheeseman. Chad: And this is Chad, speaker of the house, Sowash. Joel: And on this week's show Indeed clears the air, open AI takes on the iPhone and Cobotics at Chipotle. Let's do this. Alright. Is the Portugal jersey a subliminal message that you're ready to get out? Get the hell out of the US? As we sit in a rainy Indiana as we... Chad: Yes. Yes. Wait a minute. My dogs are going crazy. Joel: The dogs even wanna go. That's right. The dogs... Chad: Oh my God, my dogs want to go to Portugal. [laughter] Yeah. They want to go to Portugal. Unfortunately, they're not gonna go to Portugal. I'll be back. There's a cat. Joel: There's a cat. And we're back. Chad: Luckily we went through COVID and everybody's used to that shit now. So it's all good. Joel: Okay. Chad: As a matter of fact, I gotta do this. It's been one of those days, dude. It's fucking October. Yes. And you're right. One of the things that I am excited about is being on the road and finding myself on the beaches of Portugal for all of Q4. I can't fucking wait. Joel: So a lot of news around bedbugs in Paris, which scares me a little bit 'cause we're going to Paris, but they haven't made their way to Portugal yet. No bedbug issues... Chad: No. Joel: In Portugal. Yeah. This is scary stuff. We got riots in Paris. We got bedbugs. Chad: You always have riots in Paris. Joel: That's true. Always a revolution in Paris. I see videos of like don't sit down in the metro. It must be bad. Chad: Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. I reached out to our Airbnb and said, we need to ensure there aren't bed bugs there. And they said that they've been doing the refreshing checks and whatnot. So I do love taking the metro while I'm there, but I'm not sure that I'm going to this time around. I think I might just stay close to home on this one. Joel: As long as there's no outbreak of the Vonk in Paris during UNLEASH. Chad: There's gonna be an outbreak of the Vonk, I can almost guarantee you. Joel: Oh shit. That's gonna be scary. Chad: I can guarantee you. We're gonna need shots again for that shit. Yeah. No kidding. No kidding. Fuck! Joel: Oh, I can't wait to get out though. Can't wait to get out. Can't wait to get out. Vegas next week we get back and basically I get a, a two hour nap and then it's off to Europe that next week. So shows will be interesting for the next couple weeks everybody. So enjoy this sit down, boring, well prepared for, long show 'cause there's a lot of stuff in the news. Chad: Lots of content gonna be coming your way kids. And that being said, let's go ahead and hit a little shout out action. And I'm gonna start out with Terry Baker. You might've heard of him before, who was just named the new CEO of Daxtra. Terry is an industry veteran with deep CEO and CRO experience in this space. Prior to this position, Terry was the CEO of Pandologic, prior to their acquisition by Veritone. He was there for a little bit after that. And I forgot that Terry was with Adicio for six plus years. Joel: Wow. Chad: Remember Adicio? Joel: Yeah. Chad: Yeah. What a blast from the past. Anyways I personally felt that Daxtra was given a knockout punch by Textkernel after Textkernel acquired Sovereign, but apparently Daxtra has a new sugar daddy. They've got some money. This is gonna be the first swing I see is Terry jumping in and we'll see if they can make some noise. But Daxtra was, they were around and they were in the conversation for years prior to COVID. It's almost like they caught COVID. They never came out of it 'cause they went silent. Apparently they're back. So, we will see what kind of ammunition they have, because I'm gonna tell you right now. Yes, Textkernel is a sponsor of the show, but I'm gonna tell you right now, kids, they are the world fucking leader in this space, especially after buying Sovereign. So they're forced to be reckoned with. So good luck to Terry. Joel: Yeah. I'm just happy that Terry's working for a Scottish company, which means there could be bottles of scotch show up at my house randomly. That's... Chad: Yes. Joel: That's what I'm excited about everybody. Chad: Yes. Joel: That's what I'm excited about. Well, speaking of companies with a lot of money, Jamie Dimon gets a shout out from me. I know how you love a good Jamie Dimon. Shout out. But anyway, I digress. JP Morgan Chase, CEO Jamie Dimon expresses optimism about the benefits of AI predicting it will lead to a shorter work week and enhance various aspects of the bank's operations. Dimon said this week in an interview with Bloomberg, "Your children are going to live to a hundred and not have cancer because of technology." And literally, they'll probably be working three and a half days a week. Of course, if they're working for JP Morgan Chase, all of those days will be in an office. Shout out to Jamie Dimon. SFX: All right. All right. All right. Chad: On the other side of that spectrum, shout out to unions who seem to be getting their mojo back. Since UPS, SAG-AFTRA and the UAW started making waves, more unions started following their lead. This week Kaiser Permanente had 75,000 workers walk off the job, which is the largest healthcare workers strike in history. The American workers have taken lower pay year after year, after year, while profits reach record levels, executive take huge pay increases and stock buybacks occur and they're becoming the norm. The rich get rich richer off the backs of the people who are actually performing the work. And this makes the union mojo even stronger. So here we go kids. Shout out to Union Mojo. SFX: That escalated quickly. Joel: Yeah. Unions are having a moment, but I hope they're not having too big of a moment while we're in Vegas because apparently the service folks want to strike. And if I can't get a Laphroaig at the bar, I'm gonna be really upset in Vegas. Chad: If I have to serve myself, I'll be okay. Joel: It is not gonna be... Chad: I'll be fine. Joel: Not gonna be good. You know who needs a union, Chad? It's all the AI actors... Chad: Oh Jesus. Joel: That are going down recently. This week Tom Hanks, the real Tom Hanks warned fans about a fake advertisement using an AI generated version of his likeness without permission. Sharing an image of the ad on Instagram and highlighting the issue of deep fake technology. But wait, Chad, there's more. Zelda Williams, daughter of the late Robin Williams criticized the use of AI to recreate her father's voice this week, expressing concerns about consent and the impact on living actors saying, "These recreations are at their very best, a poor facsimile of greater people, but at their worst, a horrendous frankensteinian monster cobbled together from the worst bits of everything this industry is." Me thinks this is just the beginning of AI's weird dance with Hollywood, Chad. Chad: I agree. I hope that AI doesn't get into the free stuff business. That's all I gotta say, because while we are at it, you can go to chadcheese.com/free where you can win beer from Aspen Tech Labs. Whiskey from Textkernel, t-shirts from JobGet. And if it's your birthday kids, you could win rum from plum.io. Go there and get your assessment done. SFX: Really? Can you feel the tension in the air right now? I know I can, I can feel it all the way down. Joel: Oh, that's right. Everybody as Chad Chugs another beer. Let's celebrate another trip around the sun with... Chad: Oh that's good. Cheers. Joel: Some birthdays of fans this week. And by the way, I put in I think two or three weeks in our birthdays 'cause we're probably gonna miss them next week after Vegas hangover. So celebrating, is that a Great Lakes? Very nice. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Cleveland style. All right. That's good. All right. We got Daniel Brian Fellows, Mark Jenkins, Gary Gray, Denise Adams. Cheryl Callaway, Jameson Stark... Chad: Yes. Joel: Tom Kenny, Ryan Beck. Gareth Feevu, Tom Hannon, Brandon Pointer, Carla Dewey Goings. Does that sound... Dewey Goings? That sounds fake to me. Chad: I love it. No, it does sound fake, but I like it. Joel: Carla Dewey Goings, Todd Duclose, Tom Stonelink. And our favorite Scott Steven McGrath, all celebrate another birthday. SFX: Here we go. Happy birthday. Yes! Joel: We'll see Steven in Paris. Maybe he'll show up with a little, little liquid gold for us down there in Paris. Hint, hint, hint, hint, Steven. Although it's his birthday, maybe we should be the ones bringing something. Chad: That's not how this works, Joel. Joel: I know. Chad: That is not how this works. Joel: We're the podcasters. We don't pay for shit. Chad: When you're talking about events, we've got HRTech next week in Vegas. If you're going to be at HRTech, where can you find the Chad and Cheese? Where can you find t-shirts? Where can you find, I don't know, beer and food? Or where can you bring beer and food? That's a good question. At Booth 1125, we will be in the Fuel 50 booth where they're allowing us to crash. I don't know why they're doing that, but they're allowing down by the river. We're gonna be there doing interviews. SFX: I'm happy. Chad: Saying hi, doing pictures. They've got like professional headshots that are going on there. I think you do a professional headshot and then you do a professional headshot with Chad and Cheese. So come to the Fuel 50 booth. Then as you had said, Joel, we got to hop on a plane, come back home. I actually have to go to Ohio for a for a wedding. My niece's wedding. Then I've gotta come back. Then we've gotta go to Paris. Then we're going to Paris for UNLEASH, which is always fucking amazing. Who doesn't love Paris? Sands bedbugs, obviously but Paris, just a staple of products, services, practitioners and great content. Chad and Cheese are going to be in the Textkernel booth. It feels like a Textkernel show so far. So come out there and then December 4th through the 6th, I'm gonna be in the London for TA Tech Europe where I'm going to be MCing. So it's gonna be a good time. We've got a lot of stuff going on. And fuck guys, we're in Q4. Come out, enjoy the rest of the year and do that at HRTech, UNLEASH and TA Tech. Joel: So let's touch on this pictures with Chad and Cheese at HRTech. I wanna start a new LinkedIn profile pick trend. I wanna see a bunch of profile picks with Chad, I and whoever is taking the photos. I think that's a trend we can, we can all get behind. Unlike the trend of my record in fantasy football, Chad. Chad: You suck. Joel: It is a tough, it's a tough... Chad: An A player baby. Joel: It's a tough first quarter of the season. Our fantasy football is sponsored by our friends at Factory Fix, which they've apparently thrown a ringer into the mix 'cause their number two on the leaderboard is Joe Dixon. But number one... Chad: It's early. Joel: Number one is Marcy Mallrat, who I think is in her fourth week now. Oh, I guess third week at number one. She's kicking ass at four and O. Joe Mama Dixon. Number two, followed by Michelle Sergeant Pepper, Brent Berry Losie at number four. Dina Freeman Perro, number five, number six, Chad Sweet Sowash, sweet spot, he's right in that middle. He is not showing off. He's not falling behind. Just like Castanza. Number seven, Jack and Jill Patterson. She's got an MBA I know. 'cause it's in her name on LinkedIn. Number eight, Dean Ozzy Ossner. Number nine, Kristen Bell Urban. Number 10, Jasper Indiana Sponge Art our European guy in the mix. Number 11, Joel Blue Cheeseman. It's blue 'cause I'm kind of blue that I'm so down the line at number 12 in the caboose again. Dennis, last year's champion, terrible tupper rounds out our fantasy football. Chad: Dude, I almost knocked Marcy off the fucking top. She had 27... Her defense scored 27 downs defense. 27 points which is like three times the normal amount. So I thought I had her. And then Dallas played, and I knew I was fucked. Joel: I, every week have a component who has someone who blows up. This past week it was McCaffrey. McCaffrey had like 50 fan... Dude scored four touchdowns. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: And I lost by four points like that. I still feel good about my team. Chad: It hurts. It hurts. Joel: When I played you, it was Keenan Allen who had like 40 some points. Every week someone blows up the tanks. Tanks my team. But it's a long season. Half the league is at two and two. So there's, still hope. I gotta perform this week. But... Chad: It's okay. Joel: But otherwise, yeah. It's not, not been a good season for me at all. Alright. Let's get into... SFX: Playoffs. Joel: Let's play some layoffs here. Chad: Layoffs? Joel: To start the show. Snagajob is on life support. The company who says they're the country's largest marketplace for hourly work and who had a round of blowoffs in August 22, has laid off, "Many workers." That's according to a post on LinkedIn by a former employee. Also according to LinkedIn, the company has hired pretty much no one in 2023 and has seen a 33% reduction in sales and engineering in the past 12 months. In the past 24 months, there's been a 38% reduction in head count. They currently have 216 total workers. We'll see how much they have a year from now. I talk about CareerBuilder and Monster getting acquired by European Sugar Daddy, screw that. Job and talent, if you're listening, Snagajob is on sale now at your local TJMaxx. Don't walk, run to get this on the cheap job board in America. Chad: Don't do it. Oh my God. Don't do it. These companies and the ones that that we talk about that are definitely, they've just fallen off the cliff for god's sakes. When you see salespeople being pushed out the door, that's a huge fucking identifier. That's a huge signal that things are fucked up, right? Yeah. So I did see many salespeople on LinkedIn saying that they were part of the purge. All I can say is we should play taps right now because they're dead. Snagajob is pretty much dead at this point. Joel: Yeah. Taps, I'll see your taps and up you a... How about that? But that's not all Chad. Meta, your favorite social media site is planning to lay off employees this week in the unit of its metaverse division. That's according to Reuters. We don't know how deep the cuts will be, but 600 employees work on the Metaverse project. I wonder if they'll be laid off in person or in the Metaverse. Chad, what do you think? Chad: I think that Mark Zuckerberg obviously doesn't know where the puck is going because where he's skating, is not working, is not working. And I don't know how many times we've talked about CEOs where they can reach a certain level. And you've got your, your, your startup CEO then you've got your take it to the growth stage, CEO and so on and so forth. He's been around since day fucking won. He just needs to go find a fucking yacht, be chairman of the board and give somebody else the reins 'cause this motherfucker does not know what's going on. Hey, go have your cage match with Elon. Go train for that. Go train for that, but get the fuck outta Meta because you are fucking things up, dude. Joel: I guess that means you're not gonna buy their new RayBan augmented glasses. SFX: Hasn't anyone noticed this. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Joel: All right. Well, that is our layoff segment of the show. SFX: Playoffs. Joel: Let's get to some real news, shall we? Chad: Yes. Joel: Two of our favorite companies are in the news this week, Chad. First up, Indeed says there's nothing to see here. They've apparently resolved initial issues with its pay per apply system. Raj Mukherjee, a senior executive at Indeed mentioned during a marketing conference that employer satisfaction has improved since the PPA rollout. The company plans to continue with PPA while also offering pay-per-click with daily budget limits for the foreseeable future. They're also getting into AI in a big way, soon to be using it to enhance matching and messaging technologies for employers, including drafting email responses, creating job seeker profiles, and improving response rates. Chad, what are your thoughts on the news from Indeed. Chad: So Indeed is trying their nothing to see here, as you'd said bit again. Joel: Yeah. Yeah. SFX: Alright, move on. Nothing to see here. Please disperse. Nothing to see here, please. Chad: Okay. It's funny because they sprinkle AI into this, which is a total diversion. It's like, oh, look over there. Nothing to see here. Look over there. Raj Mukherjee or whatever the fuck his last name is. Joel: Rob M. [laughter] Chad: Said employer satisfaction has improved considerably with the pay-per-application product. So remember Indeed was charging companies at like around 10x. The system was going out of whack, right? So improved considerably is a fucking low bar, Raj. Okay? That's a low bar. It's improved considerably. Okay. Let's get back to the basics here again, they're trying the diversion of AI. Don't bite on that bait. On the SMB side of the house, small companies will have to pay higher rates for a wave of unqualified candidates with a new shade of lipstick on the Indeed Pig called Pay for Results, which is the exact same as pay-per-application, right? Pay-per-apply, exact same thing, but they put a new shade of color of lipstick on the Indeed Pig. On the enterprise side, pay-per-started-apply is another new shade of lipstick on the same fucking pig. Pay-per-started-apply is what used to be called pay-per-click back in the olden days, just like 10 years ago. Chad: So don't be fooled, kids. Indeed is just applying a new shade of lipstick to the same old pig and they're asking you to pay more. It's the same thing, only at a higher price. Don't be a sucker. Don't be a sucker. Don't fall for the AI games. Don't fall for the new lipstick shade on the same fucking pig, guys. Also on the trusted network side of the equation, and this one's from the AIM Group, they did some really good reporting on this "Indeed now reaches 350 million job seekers each month worldwide and has ongoing relationships with 3.5 million employers. Both numbers up 40% in the last 18 months." Okay, so all of you vendors that are out there that are pushing job seeker traffic to Indeed and you are responsible for that 350 million job seekers. I want you to listen up. Indeed crushed Monster and CareerBuilder without having forced registration processes in place. They crushed them without that. Now Indeed forces job seekers to register, which means they are actually siphoning your talent pools. If they now own your talent, what the actual fuck do they need you for? So you're going to be squeezed and squeezed and squeezed until you're dead. Or just zombie companies like CareerBuilder and Monster. But remember, kids, there's nothing to see here. Joel: Is it any coincidence that Indeed started putting their jobs on Google For Jobs about 6 to 12 months ago? Do you think that maybe they realized they were having their annual meeting and wanted to juice up their numbers? And putting jobs on Google might help with that 40% increase that you mentioned... Chad: Doesn't hurt. Yeah. Joel: From the AIM reporting. Is that a coincidence? I don't think so. Chad: No. Doesn't hurt. Joel: At least we know now their next magic trick. [laughter] Their next shiny thing over here. Oh, it's AI everybody. Chad: AI. Joel: AI, we're going to be launching some AI shit that's going to blow you away and keep you on the heroin drip that is Indeed. So. Yes, Chad is right. You guys keep falling for this shit. It's incredible, amazing. But their next show... Chad: Everybody does. Joel: Their next show, and we will be tuning-in and talking about it endlessly and ceaselessly is the AI magic trick. And we know about magic tricks, Chad. SFX: 60% of the time, it works every time. Joel: Oh, yes. But there's someone else, Chad, that's getting into the AI game. And this one might be for real. Not to be left behind in AI. LinkedIn also made news this week. The company has introduced new AI driven products to enhance recruitment and employee training. The new recruiting tool leverages data on over 950 million professionals to identify qualified job candidates beyond traditional sources I.e. Job boards allowing recruiters to describe ideal candidates in natural language and suggest expanding location skills and remote work options to widen the talent pool. The tool also relies on candidate provided insights like their willingness to work and company values alignment integrations called CRM connect linked recruiter with existing Candidate Relationship Management System. These products are currently in pilot stages with select customers. Chad, are you ready to board the LinkedIn AI train? Chad: See, now, when Indeed says AI, it's a total fucking diversion. For LinkedIn it's not a fucking diversion. They have many more signals from job seekers. Not just signals, not just daily signals, not just interactions and engagement, but they also have history, right? They've got crazy amounts of it, they are 21 fucking years old, which just blows my mind. They're legal to drink, which I need another beer here in a minute. But here's a quote from the TechCrunch article. "LinkedIn is not entirely new to the AI rodeo. It has, in fact, been a heavy user of AI over the years. But until recently, most of that has been out of sight." Okay, so let me get this straight. Chad: LinkedIn's job matching algorithm has been shit for years. It still is. And now they're telling us that that's been AI, I really, really hope, and this is my hope for LinkedIn. I hope they can get their shit together when it comes to not all the fluffy bullshit stuff that they... They won't talk about AI coaching and whatnot. Don't fuck with that. Fuck with the things that you have already. The data that you can grind into that AI, those large language models can eat. That's what you need. That's exactly what you need. Go after that. Give us a better relevance, deliver better job postings, deliver better content, and focus on those things first. Then the rest of it will just come in line. I really want to see LinkedIn do well here. I think they have a better, a much better opportunity than Indeed is, but at the end of the day, they gotta prove it. Joel: Chad, I got to admit, I was pretty excited about this news... SFX: What are you doing step-bro? Joel: So welcome to the party, pal. Oh, by the way, your boy Josh Burson calls this exciting, and that's probably enough for anybody in terms of what this is. Chad: How much does LinkedIn pay Josh Burson to say that it's exciting? That's the question. Joel: I don't know, but he's excited. Chad: I don't either. Josh, Josh, how much do they pay you? Joel: Whatever it is, he's incredibly excited. SFX: Aai, papi. Joel: All right. LinkedIn has a new appetite for destruction and everyone should start looking alive. Okay? Not surprisingly, LinkedIn also announced that jobs mentioning AI doubled in the past 2 years. This is what a billion dollar investment in OpenAI by your sugar daddy, Microsoft, means for LinkedIn. You mentioned the rich get richer, and it could not be more true. While Indeed is concerned about packages and playing magic games, LinkedIn is moving it at hyper-speed. Look, we're moving beyond job search. It's like, let Google have the job posting. LinkedIn owns sourcing and soon to own AI. Look, SeekOut, better have some life alert. They better have that little necklace with the life alert. I'm very nervous if I'm competition to LinkedIn, which by the way includes just about everybody that we're going to see at HRTech and UNLEASH World in the next couple of weeks. Appetite for destruction. The big dog is hungry, everybody, and OpenAI is dangerous. Chad, it's on son. Chad: Indeed's fallen and they can't get up. Is that what you're going for? Joel: It's on. SFX: Alright, alright, alright. Joel: I got kind of juiced then, I need one of your beers, I think. All right, let's go to our next new story. OpenAI versus Apple. That's right more AI everybody. OpenAI is reportedly exploring the development of an AI hardware device. Sam Altman, OpenAI's founder, has had discussions with Jony Ive, renowned for designing Apple products, about this endeavor. While specific details about the product remain limited, it suggests a potential next generation consumer electronic device that integrates AI into your daily life. Sounds like it's about time to dump the Android, Chad, what are your thoughts on this development? Chad: So I got to say Apple is the only big player that's not in the generative AI product game, right? Joel: They're doing something. They got stuff going on in the background, don't you worry? Chad: Okay. Okay. Okay. We'll hope that that's the key. Well, if not, that means that they have an exposed flank as Google and Android will probably integrate Google Genesis into their operating system with, while Apple does what? They're going to have to lean heavily on Microsoft or Amazon at some time. So this is a very, very big signal to Apple that they can not sit back and watch. We've talked about Amazon last week becoming a much bigger player in the generative AI game by dumping $4 billion into Anthropic. More importantly, this is Sam Altman signaling to investors who have sunk billions and billions and billions of dollars into OpenAI. Apple isn't a purveyor, I mean they, I think, have a great opportunity to get in the game late and still dominate. Joel: That's what they do. Chad: But they have to get in the game. That's the thing. Now being able to actually create a device, whatever that AI device is, it's going to have to be a mobile phone. It's going to have to be, 'cause this is what we're used to. This is what we're addicted to, right? So it has to be something like this. If you create something else like, I don't know, VR-Headset or something, it's just not going to happen. Right? And you can't fit a GPU into this, right? So he has to figure out how AI works with something that is not going to be AI. It's going to have to be a conduit to AI. So it's gonna be interesting. And smarter people are going to be answering this problem and we get to sit back and watch. And I'm excited because these are big fucking companies, kids. And let me say this real quick. The big names are NVIDIA and AMD, because none of these companies, these AI companies will exist in the future without these companies producing their GPUs. Joel: Yeah, yeah. Chad: Period. SFX: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Joel: So, Chad you know that I'm prone to the occasional SEO-geek, article, podcast, etcetera. And I always wonder, what's after, what's today? What's after search, what's after this phone in your pocket? There's got to be something next. And when I heard this, I thought, okay, what the hell does this look like? And I was listening to sort of a future of SEO, search and how this would work and so right now, all the major publications, authors are suing OpenAI for their data and taking their data. Now, assuming that they either win that case or that case is in court for the next decade, what do those companies do to protect themselves, to protect their business models? And what this one pundit thought was, there are going to be walled gardens everywhere, and we're all going to have co-pilots, assistants, whatever we want to call them, and we will ask our assistant questions. And the assistant will basically ping all these walled gardens that you either have a membership to or a subscription to, or somehow you've connected with these content providers. Chad: Yeah. Joel: They will go out, seek the answer, and bring you back the answer to your question as best as they possibly can. Because... Chad: If you have access. If you have access. Joel: If you have access. Chad: Yes. Joel: So right now, search is becoming like, we'll give you the answer. I don't know if you, I know you use Google on a regular basis like if you ask Google a question... Chad: Oh, yeah, the generative AI search... Fucking awesome. Joel: It's there. You don't have to click any links anymore. Well, that's going to come to a head at some point. So when I think about, what does this device look like? I think about the movie Her. I think about a co-pilot, in Her's case it was a date, I guess. But we will have these assistants and they will get answers. Is it audio? Is it visual with glasses or contacts? Is it a speaker in your house? Is it all the above? Maybe your TV? I don't know. But if anyone's going to do it, Johnny Ive has certainly got the chops to do it. Carrying a big phone in our pocket is pretty stupid. Like, if you think about it, like. Chad: Don't tell me I need a chip in my head. Don't we do that shit. Joel: That may be an option. You might have to wear the contacts, Chad. Chad: No. Joel: I don't know. Chad: I could do that, pretty cool. Joel: But something it's going to come to a head. I think it'll be incredibly interesting how content providers protect their stuff from AI, who they do deals with, who can access their information. The legal process is going to take forever. It's going to be a hell of a lot of fun to watch. But what we have now is not going to be what we're going to have in 20, 25 years. Chad: No. Joel: And this is our first glimpse into what the future could be. Chad: Yeah, I totally agree. And I definitely agree. With regard to the walled gardens piece, you're going to have to pay to access the data so that you can actually get answers from any of these different sources. Right? So that's going to be one way. And then the rich obviously are going to be able to have access to everything. So they're going to have co-pilots and assistants that can answer just about anything that they want or need. Then we've got to think about the multimodal piece of it. So it's audio, it's video, it's text, it's everything. Right? That's the next leap of generative AI is not just text. It's much more than that. So I think that's awesome. But the hardest thing that and I think the dumbest thing is to get somebody away from this because we are addicted to this. Chad: And if you're not watching the video on YouTube, sorry, kids, but I'm holding up my phone. The phone has become it's like the ball and chain, dude, I can't go anywhere without this fucking thing. And it's behavior and human behavior. So how do you break that human behavior for a entirely different device? I don't know. I think it might be like an Alexa, which can have more hardware in it that you can have in your house, in your car, right, with these new electric vehicles. And then maybe once the tech gets to the point we don't have to have like, 1980s huge ass block cell phones. We can have the same types in size of cell phone that we have today with GPUs that are actually installed. Joel: Yeah. And you talked about Apple. I know you don't use Apple products, although you watch Ted Lasso, which makes me question your... Chad: Julie has an Apple phone. Joel: Yeah. Okay. Julie has it. So Apple, we know, has a deal with the Music, the record companies, they've had for a long time... They have Apple Music. They have Apple News, which I subscribe to, which gives you access to Wall Street Journal, a lot of... I share articles on our feed. And you're like, Apple News sucks because I can't get to it. But it is a walled garden that I pay for that I can get access to. So when you think about Apple, they are building these bridges to content providers and providing a way to monetize that for everybody. So Apple is a little bit in an advantage state there, as opposed to, like, Google or Facebook. Chad: I think... Joel: All of them could write a check tomorrow and get the same content, I'm sure. Chad: Apple when and if they move to micro payments, they could outflank Twitter. I don't think Twitter's longevity is there. And I think Apple could kill it, could crush it in an instant. Definitely with micro payments, especially around access to great content. Joel: The way they do it now is subscription. I pay a base fee for the whole family. Chad: But that leaves me out, right? Joel: It's news, it's music, it's Apple TV. Well, I don't care about you. Chad: You don't, but Apple does. Apple wants my money and they're not fucking getting my money, right? Joel: Yeah. Similar to how the iPod back in the day integrated with Microsoft. That was like a huge deal when it happened. Well, it worked out pretty well for Microsoft. Let's take a quick break. A lot to digest here, everybody. But please listen to the ads, because there is no show without our sponsors. All right, Chad, who's in the mood for a little Who'd You Rather? You know how the game is played, right? We talk about two companies that recently got funding, and Chad and I decide who would we rather? SFX: Aai, papi. Joel: You know what I'm saying? All right, first up, we have Transfr. That's T-R-A-N-S-F-R, kind of like Flickr from back in the day Chad, you remember Flickr, a New York City based company has raised 40 million in Series C growth funding, bringing their total to $90 million. They offer Immersive Simulation Training for various careers, I.e. VR with trainees using headsets to engage in real world skill development and practice. The funds will be used to expand the executive leadership team, scale the platform and develop new training simulations covering a wider range of skills and scenarios, including Espanol. They are currently deployed in over 1000 locations nationwide across various industries. And that is Transfr. But let's go to our next corner. We have HiringBranch straight out of Montreal. Chad, one of our favorite cities in Canada. SFX: Take off, will you? We're doing our movie. Don't wreck our show, you hoser. Joel: HiringBranch has secured $2.5 million. The company plans to use this funding to support its growth and expand its AI capabilities. HiringBranch measures and assesses soft skills required for different roles. Their approach includes benchmarking top performer skills and creating tailored scenarios to evaluate candidates, resulting in what it says are improved hiring quality and efficiency for their clients. So, Chad, two companies. Only one can survive. Who would you rather? Chad: First off, a little love for us. Are you talking about foreign languages? Chad and Cheese have almost 50 episodes that are in five different language. Obviously, we've got number one, English. Then we've got Spanish, French, Portuguese and German. That's right. You can find the Chad and Cheese podcast in five different languages. Believe that shit? Okay, on the Transfr. Joel: We did it before Spotify, Chad. Chad: Way before. Joel: We did it before Spotify. Chad: Way before Spotify. So I believe the only real practical application for VR/AR goggles today is for training purposes, which is what Transfr is doing. But in general, companies who continually whine about the skills gap, they still have done nothing to close it. Generative AI is the new tech darling which has pushed any platform with a VR/AR goggles further down the rabbit hole, plus as we talked about earlier, Meta is actually laying people off. HiringBranch on the other hand, now we're friends with the Ckanuck up in HiringBranch, but nonetheless, I'm a big believer in work simulations and assessments as proof of a skill, instead of just believing a resume. It's a practical step forward in assessing talent, which is why for all practicality, this is something that will be adopted. It's practical HiringBranch, I'd rather HiringBranch all day. SFX: All right, all right, all right. Joel: If my T-shirt is any indication of where I'm leaning on this one, Chad. Chad: Fuck interviews. Joel: Little story back in the day, I'm gonna say circuit 2005. I met with a company called Life Agora. Chad: T hat's a horrible fucking name. Joel: It was very awful, especially when some shit... Chad: I hope they had the.com. Joel: Some shit was available back in the day, they went with Life Agora. Anyway, the company was video interviews pretty early on, and they would literally send job seekers a web cam that was branded with the company they were interviewing with. So the company had to pay for the web cam, the job seeker would get to keep the web cam. Chad: Sounds like Green job interview. Joel: You know where this is going. Chad: Yeah. Joel: They went to a total shit show of shipping, camera doesn't work, how do you turn the audio on? It was awful. Long story short, devices and getting into that business sucks, unless the device is ubiquitous, everyone has it like cameras now, video interviewing makes a ton of sense 'cause there's a video camera on every single computer and phone, etcetera. It's not the same with VR, it's not the same with headsets. Companies have to buy this shit. Who are they gonna use? Shit's broken. Does the company get involved? It's a pain in the ass. And like you said, with the Metaverse doing layoffs, the jury is still out on VR. Is this kind of thing be embraced? I think there's a place for it, medical, industrial, maybe service some other places, but it's not a huge, huge market, unlike HiringBranch who yes, aside from having probably better T-shirts [laughter] is a better deal. Let me count the ways as to why it is. 300% customer expansion growth within Fortune Five companies. Number two, they cut interviews by 80% for one of their clients, and number three, 90% lower hiring costs and under 1% bad higher rates for another client, and more than anything else, the TAM, the total addressable market for hiring branch is far bigger than it is for their opponents. And who doesn't love a good Canadian company Chad? You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying? So for me it's a clean sweep for HiringBranch everybody, and that is another episode of Who Would You Rather? Chad: I can't believe you didn't go with VR. Joel: I'm down on it and I'm down. I love the Canadians, you know that. Chad: Literally, yes. Joel: Can't get enough of the Canadians. SFX: Take off, will you? We're doing our movie. Don't wreck our show, you hoser. Joel: All right. Next story is the ongoing strikes by unionized workers at GM, Ford and Stellantis have drawn the attention of non-union auto workers at rival companies like Tesla. Some non-union workers support the UAW's demands while others remain skeptical particularly when it comes to concerns about job stability and perceptions of unions. Despite the challenges the UAW is looking to expand its presence and influence in the auto industry, particularly in non-union plants. Unions are having a moment, Chad, like we've already covered, but what are your thoughts to their expansion. Chad: I think, again, they've gotten their mojo back, and this is something that scares the shit out of the Elon Musks of the world. But before we get into that, let's dig into some of the workforce equation around how we move to electric. Because the first thing that we talk about is that the automobiles are going to need 20% of the parts that a traditional combustion engine needs. So that being said, so many people, and if you take a look at, so many people have honed in on the 32-hour work week proposed by the UAW, that was done for a reason. The four-day work week is one of the mechanisms to try and combat the need for fewer bodies throughout the manufacturing lines. Cutting from a 40-hour work week leaves eight hours unaccounted for each week. Will the automakers just close up for those eight hours? Chad: No, of course not. So if you do the math for every four employees that are taken down to 32 hours, that creates another full-time position. That's one step in being able to create a more full workforce answer to this, it doesn't answer it entirely. Now, the parts manufacturing landscape will change immensely, only needing 20% of the parts. What do you do to boost the jobs numbers? Well, you bring those jobs back to American shores for the cars that are manufactured here, and you create parts manufacturing jobs. Our biggest supply chain issues during the pandemic, and even today are a lack of redundancy. When your company only makes a certain part in Wuhan, China and nowhere else. Your supply chain was broken. Chad: So I really believe we need to legislate redundancies. And since electric vehicles will provide much larger margins and the auto companies are already making record profits as it is, that's one of the only ways we can shore up supply chains while creating more jobs for where the vehicles are actually sold. And here's some real quick data around that, Tesla's profits nearly $10,000 per vehicle, which is five times more than GM. And GM are still making record profit. So don't believe the millionaires who are sitting on their super yachts drinking Bubly, saying that this is going to implode them. That's not gonna happen. The future is electric, higher profits, better margins, more jobs is definitely electric. SFX: That escalated quickly. Joel: Look, we've talked about this for weeks, labor has been getting their ass kicks for 40 years. It's shocking it took this long to happen, I think it's a matter of automation becoming real for people in a way that it hasn't ever been. I think inflation, I think the pandemic was an eye-opener for everybody. This is a window for labor to basically get theirs. Because I think that Mexico is the new China, there's a threat of near-shoring obviously, politically, we can... Chad: Tariffs. Joel: Deter some of that tariffs. But the future is automation, if you look at a Tesla plant, there aren't a lot of people there. If EVs are the future, then there are gonna be less workers no matter what in the long term. You have the added kick in the nuts in that the government is pushing for EV vehicles which says, Hey, our window may be closing faster than it should be with the $7500 tax credit. More and more people will be looking at EVs than they have before. So I think that's why that's politically dangerous, 'cause you have Biden on one hand, pushing The Green agenda of EVs and pushing incentives to do that, but then you also have him on the picket line talking about unionized workers should be getting paid what they are worth, etcetera. Ultimately, what I'd love to see happen, and I've mentioned this a couple of times, is the government stepping up with a fair living wage, a minimum wage increase. Joel: We know what it is now, increases have been anemic make it 25 bucks. Have exceptions for maybe teenagers or certain rural areas or maybe startup companies or small businesses, but if the government just says, hey, here's the level playing field that we're all gonna play on, it's fair for everybody. We don't get in these states versus states, we don't get in these political battles and all these things that are headaches. A living wage by the federal government is the ultimate union, and I'm surprised that in an election year, we're not hearing more about what the government can do to make labor more prosperous. They seem to be playing politics with the union workers and treating them as a swing vote as opposed to looking at the bigger picture, which hopefully we'll see come out in the election in 2024, but I'm not super optimistic on that one. Chad: Well, I mean, the United States only works from quarter to quarter anyway. We don't look five years down the road or 10 years down the road, and the Green Agenda, let's just be clear, is a life agenda. This is trying to make sure that we have great lifestyles moving forward, and the whole oxygen thing is pretty important too. But if we take a look at a living wage from state to state, and then if you open a plant in Alabama, which you've seen companies do because it's much cheaper to get talent there, the thing is if you still force the living wage job, it's much more of a level playing field, but the thing we really need to focus on, and I think we'll drive wages up is if we put legislation or a cap in place to say, look, CEOs can only make 30 times that of their lowest wage employee, if they wanna make more, they gotta move everybody up. We've talked about the rising tide that's been bullshit for decades, the only way we get a rising tide is to cap the dollars on the top to be able to raise everybody up else up with them. Joel: That is a great point. I doubt it's a Chad original, but it's still a great point. Chad: No it's not. It's not. [laughter] Joel: If you own in a small business, if you want a 401k plan for your business, the more you can pay yourself more or put more away, the more you give your employees, so to me that makes... It's already kind of being done, we just have to do it on a salary and to say, hey, if you want X amount what your lowest person is paid, you have to bring yours down and bring theirs up if you want your... That seems like an equilibrium that we could aspire to. It is funny although by the way, how quiet our friend Elon Musk has been about this issue. He's just hoping that he can be quiet and that the whole thing just goes away, I think that. Chad: He does not want this to happen. Joel: No, he does not. Chad: That's why he has profit margins that are just exploding, one of the reasons why, right? Joel: Yeah. Well, let's take another quick break and we'll get to one of my favorite topics, but you gotta stick around to know what it is. Alright Chad so let's get to some real news, shall we? SFX: Oh my God, I love Chipotle. Chipotle is my life. Joel: I was waiting for that. It's like we've been doing a podcast for six years together. Alright, yeah, your Chipotle burrito will be rolled by human, but its guts may soon be assembled by a robot, the fast casual chain announced this week a new automated digital makeline, get it makeline, that uses machines to build bowls and salads to customer specifications. Human employees are then expected to incorporate the robot assembled ingredients into burritos, tacos and quesadillas. The shift is part of Chipotle's foray into cobotics, collaborative robots that work with rather than against humans. For now, at least, Chipotle's Chippy Autocado and other Cobotic efforts will work alongside their human co-workers to get orders filed. Chad, what are your thoughts on Cobotics at Chipotle? Chad: I'm only thinking about universal basic income at this point. Because they say with, the robots work with humans until they can take over the human jobs. So at the end of the day, we used to have, you and I, when we were growing up, much different than it is today, we had to go find a job. And for the most part, we went to work in fast food, I worked at Burger King, I worked at Mr. Hero, I did those things 'cause I had to. 'cause if I wanted money, my parents weren't just gonna give it to me, I had to go and make that money. So today, it's different. We evolve, I appreciate that. We don't have kids doing those jobs as much, and it's much harder to find individuals, especially with the constraints on immigration that we do have, in some cases. These companies have no choices, especially when it comes down to this. Now, when it comes to fast food, I would love to see that industrial complex shrink dramatically, just as long as Chipotle is not a part of it, 'cause I do love some Chipotle. Joel: I do, and just in case you didn't know my policy, when there's a burrito in my hand. SFX: Just the tip. Joel: Oh no, it goes all the way in. Look Chad at there's no way around it, there are going to be fewer food and burrito prep workers at Chipotle. Assuming the quality stays the same, I don't think consumers are gonna care whether a human being or robot makes up their bowl. On the flip side, Chipotle needs to hire more workers to deliver food. Right now, DoorDash, I think brings me my Barbacoa Bowl but there should be a Chipotle branded delivery person, and they should combine it with their rewards program of which I'm a proud member, Chad. After so many orders, for example, I should get a free trucker hat or maybe a T-shirt [laughter] with that delivery. It's less about the automation and more about the UX Chad, it's all about the UX, and that's why we're launching our new Chad and Cheese experience, we're going to automate this podcast so we can randomly show up at listeners offices and homes for a new way to engage the brand. Maybe we can order some Chipotle... Chad: No we're not. Joel: While we hang out with some of our fans Chad. SFX: Oh my God, I love Chipotle. Chipotle is my life. Chad: We out. See you in Vegas. Outro: Wow, look at you. You made it through an entire episode of The Chad and Cheese Podcast or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt, you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a bottle of your favorite whiskey, or just watch Big Booty Latinas and bag fights on TikTok. Now you hung out with these two chuggle-heads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off on the guilt but save some soap because you'll be back like an awful trainwreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite western, you can quit them either. We out.

The European show is typically filled with one or the other: An American company in Europe, or a European company in America. This week, lucky listener, includes BOTH. America’s Uber, on the heels of dealing with similar legislation in California, now finds itself juggling an EU who wants to treat giggers as full-time employees. (Cue the higher-rates, longer waits fear mongering!) On the other end of the continental expansion is Deutschland-HQ’d Personio growing its footprint in America with an office in New York City. What’s more? How about a lively conversation spurred by the latest round of Buy or Sell, featuring Heyu Works, Recrubo, Freework and Kenjo. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. INTRO: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. [music] Joel: Oh yeah. It's International AJ Day, which I can only guess is followed by International BJ Day. This is the Chad and Cheese Podcast Does Europe. I'm your co-host, Joel Unwanted Kiss Cheesman. [laughter] Chad: And this is Chad "What Is This Rugby Thing" Sowash. Lieven: And I'm Lieven "Not Stuck in Traffic Anymore" Van Nieuwenhuyze. [laughter] Joel: And on this episode, Uber warns Personio grows and buy or sell. Let's do this. Chad: What are you doing in traffic? You're in Europe. You've got all this great public transportation... Joel: Well, Lieven's way above public transportation. Chad: Flying cars, I mean, that kind of... Lieven: I really don't like the public parts. Joel: Audi 5, whatever. Yeah, he's not... Lieven: Five-five? It's an eight. Joel: Eight. Yeah, exactly. Lieven: It's an eight. Lieven: There's just too much public on public transportation. [laughter] Joel: He may or may not have a driver as far as I know. He... [laughter] Chad: Well, he needs one apparently, because he was just stuck in traffic. And that's a bunch of wasted time. Lieven: Over two hours. My commute is two hours. Joel: Geez. Lieven: Yeah, I know. Chad: Your commute? Is that normal? Two-hour commute? Lieven: Yeah. Normally, it should be one hour and 40. Joel: You shouldn't have bought a country house so far away from the city. You should live in some two-bedroom apartment with the rest of the commoners. Chad: With a garden and a pool and a tree house. [laughter] Lieven: Who told you? [laughter] Joel: The helicopter was out of service. Lieven: Anyway, it's topics. Joel: Helicopter was out of service. Lieven: Topics. [laughter] Chad: I think we have shoutouts first. Lieven: I have shoutouts. Shoutouts. Joel: Shoutouts. [laughter] Chad: I got it, I got it. I gotta do this one first. Shoutout. I got a message over the weekend from Adam Gordon and he's doing his damnedest to try to make me watch rugby. Now, Ireland did defeat South Africa this week, so big props to the Irish. But they got beat by... The Irish did get beat by Ohio State, by the way, in college football. But at the end of the day, you just cannot compare, and people try to all the time, rugby with NFL football. Never the two shall come together, shall cross. So, Adam, I appreciate you love your rugby, but I'm gonna stick with my American football. Joel: Yeah. Rugby. [laughter] Lieven: As someone who's living in a country which isn't interested in rugby nor in American football, rugby is without the helmet and the medieval protection and American football is like... Joel: Medieval protection. Yes. The battle ax... Chad: The armor. Joel: And the strong bows. Lieven: So basically... Chad: Mason Morningstar. Yeah. Joel: I do respect that rugby... Lieven: So basically... Joel: Players aren't all dead. There's a gentleman's agreement that they don't kill each other and there's an inside rule thing of like if you hurt somebody, you're gonna be... It's kinda like the baseball, you hit us, we're gonna hit you back twice as hard. So I do respect the level of gentleman behavior in rugby. I think I would like it if I embraced it. Adam should focus his energy on making the meat head of the podcast between you and me. I'm more likely to engage with rugby than you are, Chad. Chad: But it's like cricket. It's like a worst version of baseball, right? Joel: No. No. Chad: Rugby is a worst version of the American football. [overlapping conversation] Joel: That's not cricket. You like the finesse sports and the positions. Chad: No, no, no. My my point is they try to run parallels. Cricket, baseball, no parallels. Cricket sucks. Then rugby and American football, to me, again, it's a taste, it's something that I enjoy. My taste is American football. I just think rugby sucks. Joel: Lieven, break the tie. Rugby or soccer or football? Chad: He doesn't care. Lieven: I don't care. But actually, I think if I just hear it like this, rugby is for men and American football is with a helmet on and "Don't you hurt me," and the shoulder, Epaulette, we call it in French, like the shoulder protection. Joel: Yeah. I do love the European sentiment that football players are weak, scrawny dudes. I challenge any European to get hit by a 380-pound lineman at full speed and tell me how... Chad: And runs faster than all of us. Joel: Yeah. And tell me how feminine the sport is. Chad: I'm gonna go ahead and make this real easy for all Europeans. If, if Europeans and rugby was so hard and their athletes were so damn good, they would get paid more by being in the NFL, number one. The only people we see in the NFL who have crossed over and they make more money, by the way, are punters. Joel: That's true. Lieven: Are what? Chad: Punters. Joel: Kickers. Yeah. Chad: The ones who stand and they kick the ball and they hardly ever get hit. Those are the Europeans and Australians who are so tough. You don't see running backs. You don't see offensive linemen. You don't see linebackers. You don't see any of them who would get more money. And if they were such great athletes, they would get more money in the NFL, but they're not. Joel: And by the way, the fact that not every Mr. Universe or these dudes who lift weights all day aren't playing football... [laughter] Chad: Throwing cables. [laughter] Joel: I don't know where that disconnect happens, but why football scouts aren't going to Mr. Universe competitions and strong man competitions and recruiting these guys to be on a line somewhere. Yeah, I don't know. Chad: Dude, it's not easy. That's why. Joel: I know it's not easy. But these guys have a headstart. Holy shit, we're off on a tangent here. Alright, so... Chad: My bad. It's Adam Gordon's bad, actually. Joel: Yeah, it's Adam Gordon's. Chad: It's your fault, Adam. Joel: Fucking Scots, man, always fuck everything up. Alright... Joel: Scottish. All the time. Joel: I'm gonna bring this back to a gay wedding. How about that? So my shoutout... Chad: Okay! Joel: My shoutout goes to Molly and Martina. Molly is my niece I know very well. It's my sister's daughter. So Christmas is holidays. I've known her since birth. This isn't some distant cousin or niece somewhere in another state. So Molly and Martina got married this weekend. This is my first gay wedding that I've ever been to. We talk a lot on the show, Chad, about lack of progress, nothing's changing, we're moving backwards, all of which are relevant based on whatever context we're throwing out there. But when you go to a gay wedding and you see two people who love each other, you see, regardless of man, woman, whatever, love is love. Joel: These people are happy. They have every chance as heterosexual people do to be as miserable in marriage as everyone else. Shoutout to Molly and Martina, proof that there is some progress, there is some change in the world. However, Chad, something that will not change, my ability to do dances that were popular back in the '80s. We're talking the Running Man. We're talking the Kid 'n Play. We're talking the Cabbage Patch. They were all out on display for the young people at the wedding and they were very impressed, obviously. Some of them may have gotten on camera. I don't know. If you're connected to me on Facebook, there may be some visual treats coming soon. [laughter] Chad: Save us, Lieven. Save us with your shoutout, please. Lieven: I just wonder, were you the drunk uncle, Joel? Joel: Oh my God. Okay. Yes. Lieven: Every wedding in Europe needs a drunk uncle. Joel: I was not, but I got to tell you about the guy who was. Alright, so a guy shows up with a mullet. That was the first like, he's going to be the guy. Chad: Well, and this is in Indiana, right? Lieven: Which means? Joel: Louisville, Southern Indiana, yes. By the way, a gay wedding in Indiana isn't like a gay wedding in Oregon. It's a little bit more of a purple squirrel. But anyway, my man showed up in a royal blue shirt with some green pants. He had a really blonde hair, Chad. You know the kind that like bleaches the shit with Clorox? Mullet... Chad: Yes. Yeah, yeah. Joel: And I was like, "This dude, this is the guy. This is the guy." So sure enough, a couple hours into the show, the shirt gets unbuttoned. Oh yeah. The shirt's unbuttoned, untucked, okay. He's giving everybody a hug, giving high fives. He's doing the whole, that thing. And then towards the end of the night, a couple hours later, he's showing around an empty bottle of Maker's Mark. And I'm like, "What? Why?" Well, he was bragging that he had consumed the entire bottle of Maker's Mark to everyone. And he was dancing with the Maker's Mark, shirt unbuttoned, mullet blowing in the wind. That was not me leaving. I was classing it up with my Running Man to Vanilla Ice, but this guy... Chad: You're just giving Lieven more bumpkin ammunition right now. Lieven: It could have been you, Joel. Joel: Full disclosure, Chad... Lieven: It could have been you. It sounds like you. Chad: Chad, you and I both, and who we married to some degree are all backwoods, like there are elements of that in all of our families. So full disclosure... Chad: Oh, easily, yes. Oh, easily. Joel: Yeah. So we are Americans, Lieven. We're not caste system, royalty, European, like some of the people on this podcast. We are the riff-raff and the bumpkins of the world. Lieven: Riff-raff, oh nice. Joel: And this is what you get, man. Lieven: Joel, I promise if you ever gay marry, I'll be there. [music] Lieven: Especially for you, I'll be coming to Indiana to join your gay wedding. Joel: I hope to God my wife isn't listening to this show 'cause I'm gonna have some explaining to do based on that comment, Lieven. Thanks. Chad: She's Canadian. She's very tolerant. Lieven: She's open-minded, of course. I mean... Joel: She's tolerant to a point. She may draw a line in that one. Chad: Lieven, shoutout. Save us, Lieven. Save us. Lieven: Okay. Back to serious business. My shoutout goes to Meta for launching a new AI chatbot actually this week. It was announced they're going to launch it this week. And they're focusing on young people using 27 different personas. So I read the article and I thought, okay, normally you go to Facebook to talk to your friends, but if you don't have any friends, Facebook is providing 27 different virtual friends, which is so sad. I mean, why would someone young go to Facebook to talk to a virtual chatbot, knowing it's a virtual chatbot? I mean, it doesn't make any sense at all. So I... Chad: Have you seen the movie, Her? Lieven: No, but it sounds like Joel's wedding. No. SFX: Hasn't anyone noticed this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills! Lieven: No. Joel: I'm sorry, I need to back this up. So we're shouting out the creation of 27 fake personas on Facebook being launched? Lieven: Yeah, yeah. And... Chad: Fake friends. Joel: And this is the company that's doing this? Lieven: Facebook is doing this. They're launching a chatbot with 27 different personas. So if you want to talk to a surfer dude you can. So if you're really sad and feeling lonely, you can. And that's actually the whole idea. You can go to Facebook and talk to someone with a personality you want at that point. But I think it's utterly depressing if you read it. If this is the future, I don't wanna be part of it. Joel: Now, if it was Only Fans launching this, would you feel the same way? Lieven: That would be something totally different. SFX: Alright, alright, alright. [laughter] Lieven: Of course. But it's not. It's Meta. [laughter] Joel: Oh my God. Chad: Maybe Meta will be at UNLEASH in Paris and we can talk to them about this. I would really enjoy that. That's right, kids. We're gonna be in Paris in October. Go to unleash.ai to see when that's actually happening. If you're in Europe, you should definitely be there. Stop by. Chad and Cheese are gonna be somewhere, somewhere. More than likely we're gonna be at the Textkernel booth at least on day one, but we're gonna be bopping around all over the place. Lieven: And there are plenty of bridges, so under the bridge somewhere on day three, next to the Seine. But it's Paris, and Paris is nice, even if you have to endure an HR Congress for it. It's nice. [laughter] Joel: Oh my God. I'll save us this time. S?: Topics, finally. Joel: Alright. Lieven: Finally. Joel: Uber's top executive in Europe, Annabel Diaz, has cautioned that the Brussels' plan to classify gig workers as de facto employees could lead to the shutdown of Uber's services in hundreds of European cities and result in price increases of up to 40%, a 50%-70% reduction in work opportunities and longer waits for riders like Chad and Lieven when they're in Europe. The proposed EU legislation aims to grant giggers the rights of full-time employees by default, potentially changing the current self-employed status of many platform workers currently in Europe. Despite industry concerns, EU officials argue that such rules aim to ensure fair treatment and protection for gig workers. Chad, what are your thoughts on the news out of Europe and Uber? Chad: So, from The Financial Times, Nicholas Schmit, the EU Commissioner for Jobs and Social rights said, "This is about establishing clear criteria and looking at the facts. If the platform is in fact an employer, then the people working for it are entitled to the same rights and protections as workers in the offline world." So if a company can't provide basic benefits while providing a living wage, it's not a company at all. If a government can't allow its citizens to choose between full-time employee work and side hustle status, well then you're doing it wrong. I see the answer is in the middle here. It's more of like a gray area that they're not having conversations around and allowing side hustlers who don't need additional benefits to select they are Ubering as a side hustle, and those who are using it as an FTE, their only source of income or their main source of income, there should be benefits that are attached to that. To me, it seems like we're having a black or white discussion and there's nobody meeting in the middle for this kind of option at least. S?: That escalated quickly. Joel: So the one thing we have to compare it to here from the US is there's a California law a couple years ago that started called Prop 22 that essentially resulted in, after an appeal, that contract workers would continue to be contract workers, they were not gonna be full-time employees, which was a win, and still is a win for Uber, Lyft, DoorDash, and all the other gig platforms. One of the big differences in America and Europe is healthcare. And one of the big arguments in terms of Americans being full-time employees is that there are usually benefits in terms of healthcare that come with that that contract workers do not get. If you're a contract worker, you're pretty much on your own in America. Europe is unique in that you get healthcare as a citizen. So even as a gigger or a full-time employee, you get healthcare. Joel: And if that's the big sort of hurdle as to whether somebody should be a full-time employer or not, if you take healthcare out of the equation, I agree with Chad that it becomes a gray area of like, well, does it really matter because we're taking care of people from a healthcare's perspective? I assume retirement and all those things are also on the table in Europe, whether you're a contract worker or you're a full-time employee. I think that labor unions have a major concern with the gig economy. I think the more contract workers there are, the less union members there are, and the less union members there are, the less member dues that come in, the less power that union has. And by and large, unions are more powerful in Europe than they are in America. We're seeing that kind of play out with the Auto Workers Union here in town. Joel: I think it's a little... It's equally unfair to say if you wanna be a contractor, you wanna work when you wanna work, you wanna live the life you wanna live, you can't do that. You have to be a full-time employee. I think that's almost as unfair as saying you can't be a full-time employee or you can or can't. I tend to land on the freedom of choice. If you're gonna get healthcare anyway as a European citizen, I say it's even more so right for you as a worker to say, "I wanna be a contractor," or "I wanna be a full-time employee." I would like to see this fall on the side of the contract workers. I would like to see this fall on the side of Uber. And it's not about wait times. It's not about the number of of cars that I can get in Manchester next time I come to town. I think a lot of people do wanna work on their time clock, when they do what days they want, they wanna work as much or as little as as they please. I hope this goes contractor. We'll pay attention to it. But, yeah, I tend to lean on the side of freedom on this one. Lieven: That's actually a very interesting point of view from a European standpoint, I mean. Joel: How so? Lieven: We feel like if you're paying them like employees without giving them the benefits employees get, those people are getting screwed. But you are totally right. I mean, they get healthcare and if they choose to do a job like that, it should be their choice. Then again, problem is I feel most of the people who are doing this for a living don't have much choice. These are the only jobs they get. And then there is a problem. It's totally different if you are like a student and you're saying, "I'm gonna side hustle a bit to get some extra money to go out," then you have healthcare, you have insurance, you have probably a whole future ahead of you because you're a student. But if you are 40 years old and you have a migration background and you have to drive around with your bike earning 10 Euros an hour without getting any employee benefits, then you are totally screwed. Lieven: So in Europe, this is... I don't think it's the same system like it's in the United States. And when I read the article, I thought, basically the people from Uber say, "If you are forced to treat our workers decently, we will have to close down shop." That's what they're saying. "If you make us pay them decently, we'll have to close down." So I looked into it and I thought, but what if they're right? What if they actually have to close down because they don't make enough money out of it? Then there is something fundamentally wrong with the whole delivery system. And then this is just a business which have to close down. If it's true what they're saying, then this is just not sustainable. Or you have some students working for you and that's okay. But you can't force full-time employees to work for something like this. S?: Right. Lieven: And then it's a problem of the system. And I totally agree that Europe should intervene, but I totally agree with Joel as well. And I think this is something you can't just compare Europe with America with. It's totally different mindsets. Chad: No. Lieven: It's interesting. Chad: And again, I think it's in the gray area because you're 100% right, we're talking about... I don't care about flexibility. I'm talking about the amount of hours that you work, right? Are you a full-time employee? You can choose your own hours. That has nothing to do with it. Are you working 30-40 hours a week? Right? The big question for me is, and I think you might be able to answer this much better than we can, Lieven, is how taxes actually get paid into the system to ensure that you're supporting that healthcare infrastructure versus being a contractor or FTE. And I think that, and I could be wrong, but let me know, that most of these governments are saying that companies are getting away without having to pay into the system, to pay into the infrastructure, because of this. It's almost like a loophole, right? And they want them to pay into the system because, again, you guys care about your entire citizenry, not just the ones who have jobs. Lieven: Yeah, true. And the problem is the whole contractor thing, I mean, I'm a contractor, the whole top management of most companies are people working as an entrepreneur, they call it, independently, because they have some kind of, I'm not sure what the name is in English, their own company... Chad: Contract? Lieven: And they just send bills to. But those people make lots of money and then they can get their own insurance. They can have their own pension funds. They take care of themself. And the only reason why they do it like this is because they don't have to pay that much taxes. They can optimize everything. This is why top management in Europe is having their own company just to optimize taxes. Let's be fair about this. Otherwise, in Europe, you're being taxed to death. I mean, you have 55% taxes. It's just unfair. But, okay. The problem is, if you don't get the money to pay your own insurance and you don't get the money to pay your own car and your own whatever, then you have a problem with this kind of statutes. Chad: Yeah, the numbers don't align. Joel: Lieven, how do you think it would... How would it play out if you could choose, let a worker choose if they wanna be full-time or contract? How would that work? Lieven: To be honest, if you don't make 500 Euros a day, you'll have to be employee, or they should choose that. Then again, for me, for example, I like it having a client instead of a boss. I mean, if you're independent, you sent a bill, you have a client, and if your client is unreasonable, that's something totally different. And having a boss, I would never be unreasonable... Chad: Yeah, but you're not driving Ubers though. Lieven: Of course not. [laughter] No, no, but indeed it's a different system. I was thinking about in Belgium, and I don't think it's the same in all European countries. In Belgium, we have something called flex jobs, meaning if you already have a job like four out five days working, you can take a flex job on the side which will allow you not to pay any taxes or... Yeah, I really think it's not any taxes at all. And you can make some extra by working more, because we need workers. We have a lack of workers. And this is a very good way to work for Uber, for example. But then you have the benefits from your full-time job, from the other job, and you have your pension and you have everything being arranged for you and you make some more money, which is nice. But if you have to get a life out of the 10 Euros an hour, sorry, no way. Joel: But I did not know that upper management were contractors. Did you, Chad? Chad: Country to country. I think that differs from country to country. But yeah, I didn't know that about Belgium. No. Joel: Look at them taking advantage of the loopholes. S?: 60% of the time, it works every time. Lieven: That's a fact. Joel: Alright, let's take a quick break and we'll play Buy or Sell. Alright guys, who's up for a little buy or sell? You know how the game works. We mention four companies. It's usually three. We did four 'cause we had an extra one. We read a summary and each of us will buy or sell each startup. Are you guys ready to play? Chad: Yep. Joel: Buy or sell. Alright, number one, London-based Workfree has secured $400,000 in pre-seed funding. The platform aims to streamline freelance hiring by eliminating traditional high commissions for freelancers and relying on a community-vetted talent network to enhance trust and quality assurance. Freelancers, community advisors and non-institutional investors collectively own 25% of the company, which says it will support over 10,000 freelancers and 100 paying clients by the end of 2024. Chad, are you a buy or sell on Workfree? Chad: All of this sounds great. And since Workfree is focusing on specific talent communities like digital agencies and tech companies, they might just have a chance 'cause they're really being incredibly focused, and then they can broaden that TAM later as they start to get traction. But I'm just not close enough to understand the market's appetite for another freelancing platform with only an estimated 7.2 million people in the UK who are identifying as gig workers. And then when you are successful, where do you expand to? Europe, as we've learned through this podcast, is not easy to expand from country to country to country, right? There are huge obstacles going from the UK into Europe. And I mean, the UK's not even a part of the EU right now. So for all of those reasons, unfortunately, it's a sell. Joel: Alright. I was totally confused by this whole 25% of the company owned by the freelancers, the community advisors. Who the fuck are these people? The institutional... Like this whole... Chad: Advisors? Joel: Decentralized movement, this blockchain, nobody owns this shit, crypto craziness that goes around, I'm gonna lump these guys in that same, just hallucination that this company isn't owned by anybody, it's owned by the people that use it. Like, fuck off, man. Look, this company is totally BS. Like Chad said, it's a smokescreen to make you forget the fact that they're competing with these huge businesses that are established and profitable with these kinds of workers. Freelancers have many places that they already know about by telling them that, "Hey, you'll own part of this company. Come over to us, use us." And then five years from now when the company's out of business and your ownership of the company is worthless, then you'll be like, "Why the fuck did I get on this bus?" So for me, this is too much risk, too much competition. This is an easy one for me. This is a sell. Chad: That's surprising. [laughter] Lieven: I think you Americans can't handle the whole idea of a community-driven company. S?: I'm happy. [laughter] Chad: An open source, yes. Lieven: In fact, there are many companies like that in Europe. In France, for example, you have those winemakers, and they have all their own vineyards, but they buy the machinery they need to produce their wine together and it's called... But it actually works. And you have the same with farmers who are in dairy. That's the name, dairy, yes? Milk? Chad: Dairy. Yep. Lieven: And then they... Yeah. I think those are just very modern and you're not ready for it. I would buy, but I already have shares in Fiverr and they're not doing very well and I'm not going to do something like that again. So, no. S?: No! God! Lieven: It's a sell, but I do like the idea and I think you Americans are not ready for it. S?: No! God, please, no! No! No! [laughter] Joel: I love that we aren't open-minded enough. And he's mentioning thousand-year-old businesses around wine and dairy. [laughter] We're so not progressive. Let's get on the dairy trend, everybody. Lieven: Yep. Chad: I wanna get on the wine trend. I like that. Joel: Our second contender, Berlin-based HR tech startup, Kenjo, has raised 8.8 million Euros in a Series A funding round to expand its HR and employee engagement software solutions targeting SMBs and Latin America expansion. The startup supports efforts around attendance, shift planning and recruitment among others while remaining compliant focused on businesses, industrial service and commercial sectors. Chad, are you a buy or sell on Kenjo? Chad: If you're not Personio and you have hundreds of millions of dollars in funding and you're going after SMB market, I think you have little chance. Secondarily, if you are in Germany, France and Benelux currently, and you are taking this money to expand into Latin America, Latin America, not the rest of Europe, but Latin America, okay? [laughter] If you wanna move into Latin America, do it organically through your portfolio and wallet share growth, not new funding. This, to me, there was nothing that I saw in this organization and their go-to-market that I would ever get behind. So easy enough. Sell, sell, fucking sell. SFX: Take off dude, we're doing our movie. Don't wreck our show, you hoser. Joel: Alright. Unlike Chad, I like Pilotfish. I like surfers that are on really great waves that may be mediocre surfers. Now, Personio is the apex predator, and we will talk about a few others in Buy or Sell, I believe, going forward. But look, I love Latin America. Money's moving out of China. Money's moving over into locations closer to the US where shipping and things can be shipped more easily and efficiently to America. I'm only mad that it's not American companies that are taking over South America. How on earth are we letting German companies come over and invest in South America? It should be us doing it. So I love emerging markets, Africa, South Asia, and I also love these guys, which makes this one for me... [music] Joel: A buy. That's right. Chad: What do you know about the SMB market in LatAm? Joel: I once bought some Mexican candy in Cabo. Chad: That's what I thought. That's what I thought. Okay, carry on. Carry on. Carry on. [chuckle] Joel: The Brazilian market's blowing up, Chad. Come on. Everyone knows that. Chad: Yeah. 'Cause they speak Portuguese. Carry on. Lieven: Is it me now? Alright. So basically, to follow Chad, I don't know anything about South America, but I feel if a company is investing 8.8 million in Kenjo, they must have done their due diligence much better than I have and I trust them and I follow. If a serious company is investing 8.8 million of their own money, who am I to go against that? And I'll just try to walk behind them and get something out of it. For me, it's a buy just because I don't know anything about them. I'll follow those who do. S?: Alright, alright, alright. Joel: He's a follower, everybody. That's our Lieven. We love him. Netherlands-based... Sorry. Let's get to our next startup. We got a little bit off-track there. Netherlands-based Recrubo has secured 600,000 euros in a seed funding round. Recrubo promises to simplify job applications using WhatsApp and AI, streamlining the process for candidates and employers. The platform is already serving companies like Sodexo and aims to help five million career entrants over the next five years. Chad, are you a buy or sell on Recrubo? Chad: Recrubo. [laughter] Recrubo. Okay. So all of the conversational AI players that have been in the space for more than five minutes already integrate with WhatsApp. I think this is bad timing. Everybody's getting into the generative AI space and they wanna try to find their niche. There's way too much noise and there are way too many veterans in this space who survived. The ones who already got kicked out, ALIO, the Mayas, those, we were able to learn from them. So I think it's just bad timing for Recrubo right now. It's a sell. Joel: Alright, let's get back to my Pilotfish commentary. [laughter] This too is a Pilotfish. If Paradox is the great white shark ready to eat most of the market share, there's certainly gonna be some left for the pilot fish out there that are serving up the crumbs from the predator that they are enjoying the ride. So for me, yes, you had Maya and many others. Zoro we haven't heard from in a while. Are they still around? Anyway, I don't know. Maybe these guys learn from the sins of the father. They've done a lot cheaper. Certainly, the amount they've taken, can you turn 600,000 into six million? Yes, I think that you can and if that is your calculus for success, then this too for me... SFX: Alright, alright, alright. Joel: Is a buy. Chad: Cheesman's on a buying spree. Lieven: Yeah. Alright. And I've been stuck in traffic and I'm a bit grumpy and I'm not buying. But anyways, I don't know anything about South America, but I do know the Netherlands. And I don't know Recrubo, which isn't a good thing. So if we didn't buy 'em, then we must have had a very good reason not to because normally, if it's good and it's in the Netherlands, we buy it. And with me, I mean House of HR. [laughter] Lieven: So that isn't really speaking up for them. And I looked at their site and it says, "Recrubo's AI recruitment solution ensures that your vacancies are always felt." This is bullshit. Yeah. And so it's a sell. Chad: Bullshit. Lieven: I mean, even we can't ensure your vacancies are always felt, almost always, of course, but not always. So no, no Recrubo for me. Joel: Alright. I'm feeling really lonely on this buy or sell episode. Let's see if we can all come into agreement on the next one. Another Netherlands-based recruitment platform, Heyu Works, Heyu Works, that's the name of the company, has partnered with Otto Holding, receiving a significant yet unnamed amount investment to support growth. Heyu Works matches professionals with companies based on personality and skills assessments. Over 4,500 professionals have joined with plans to double this year and potentially reach 35,000 by 2024. Chad, I dare you to get the Pink Floyd classic out of your head and buy or sell Heyu... Chad: Yes. Or... Joel: Standing... Chad: Hey Jude. I'm a big fan of the funding because it's coming from Otto, and since they could be a great option for portfolio penetration and then the prospect of acquisition, I like this a lot. Heyu says they would, or they want to use the undisclosed amount of cash to take their current candidate user base from 4,500-9,000. That was pretty telling. As a closer partner with Otto, she would explode their candidate in client base dramatically. So with those projections, it doesn't seem like Otto will be giving anything more than just cash to burn. So for me, that, again, it's a sell. If you're going to focus on driving numbers that matter, then yes, but these numbers just don't matter. Joel: Yeah. Alright. How do you say plum in Dutch is my question? [laughter] Chad: Don't you dare compare these guys to plum. Don't you dare! Joel: Let me keep going. Alright. So the website says, "Heyu helps you find out more about yourself and your career." Maybe this is some warm and fuzzy European shit. But I was confused by this because this isn't a business-to-business solution where you say, "Okay, take your candidates, give them assessment, let 'em know how they did and put 'em in your database." This was more of... To me, this is more of a LinkedIn job board style like, "Hey, do your assessment, we'll tell you about yourself, where your strong parts are, points are, where you're weak." And then do they transfer that data into job postings? It looks like they're trying to sell the data to companies that come in like as pre-assessed. So are they taking on LinkedIn? Are they becoming a job board? Is this the hook to get people to apply to jobs? I don't know. I was really, really confused. I think some of it is lost in translation. Look, unless this undisclosed amount of money was a $100 million-plus, they're not gonna be able to scale this to a ton of consumers to make it relevant. Chad: No. [laughter] Joel: So for me, this was a pretty easy... S?: Hasn't anyone noticed this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills! Joel: Pretty easy sell for me. Lieven? Lieven: I agree. I like the idea of taking a test and having a different way of doing job matching just by saying what's interesting to me and which kind of, whatever you like. But there are just so many companies doing the same thing. We have 40... No. 53 companies within the group, and I think at least 10 of them are doing something similar, but they all have different suppliers. So there's just too much competition on this market to become really big, I think. And now with AI, there soon will be a whole new kind of matching, I feel. And this will be outdated before it's making me money, so I'm not going to buy it. [laughter] Lieven: Sorry, Heyu. Sorry. If we bought you recently, then I take my words back. Joel: That's three sells. And I apologize, plum. I apologize. Just for that, I'm gonna play this sound bite just for you. SFX: Can you feel the tension in the air right now? Chad: I can feel the tension after that. SFX: I can feel it all the down... [overlapping conversation] Lieven: Plum is kind of a fruit right? Plum? Joel: Yes. Chad: Yes. Lieven: It's plum in Dutch. Joel: Good to know. Good to know. Chad: Plum. [overlapping conversation] Joel: It can also be used as iconography around body parts. I'll just leave it at that. And that is... Lieven: In Dutch as well. In Dutch as well, but I wasn't going to say so. but indeed. Yeah, it's in... Chad: Allow the bumpkins to do it for you. Lieven: I think the wedding you went to would be enthusiastic about it. [music] Joel: That's right. Okay, gang. That is another round of Buy or Sell. Quite a bit of disagreement this time. But it's always fun doing that. Alright, let's get to our last news story. Munich-based Personio is expanding its presence in the US by opening an office in New York City. [music] Joel: That's right. That's right. They plan to double the US workforce by the end of 2023 by double. The company valued at $8.5 billion, currently has 40 employees in the US and intends to hire across various departments. Bodhi Mukherjee, former engineering director at Google, has been hired as the vice president of engineering and will lead the New York office. While Personio aims to tap into the US talent pool, the company says it remains committed to serving European SMEs and is considering an IPO possibly in 2024. Founded in 2015, the company employs 1,903 people. Chad, your thoughts on Personio coming to America. And please pronounce Bodhi's name if it's much better than how I would pronounce it. Chad: No, I don't want to because that's the funniest shit. Mukherjee. I love it. I love it. I would call him Mukherjee from now on... S?: Hi, papi. [laughter] Chad: So earlier this year, Personio changed its legal form, which allows companies to carry out business activities more easily throughout the EU and member states, obviously also looking to target the US. I think this is incredibly telling and awesome. Last week on the Friday show, we talked about hiring. Companies like Salesforce and Facebook and a lot of companies are actually trying to get some of that talent back that they laid off 'cause they over-hired and then they overlaid off and now they're trying to get the boomerangs back. This is where Personio goes in and says, "Fuck those guys. You come work for us." Chad: Tech layoffs, sales layoffs, customer service layoffs, these brands who will have a national footprint, I think this is the perfect time, perfect time for Personio to come to the US 'cause there is so much fucking amazing talent that just got chopped for no fucking reason. And guess what, kids? You're gonna have a great German company. I think this will be probably one of the best invasion stories we're going to see from Personio. S?: Alright, alright, alright. Joel: Look, I think we should pat ourselves on the back a little bit. We kind of called this Personio, HiBob, job and talent growth coming to America influence. I think we should pat ourselves on the back a little bit for calling that. But look, while we talk about oyster on the weekly podcast as well, Chad, some of the bigger unicorns in the US are, if not floundering, challenged to say the least. So to see this story by Personio, to talk about HiBob on the weekly show, some of these European countries across the pond are really crushing it and I think it's a ton of fun to look at. I know quite a few, and I think Chad, you do as well, people in the industry that are looking for new opportunities. Either they're unhappy with what they're currently doing or they've been laid off, or they're at threat of being laid off. Joel: Take a look at these companies. They're hiring, they're looking to grow and they're clearly doing something right on many, many fronts. My question is, if they're gonna go IPO, come on, man. One of you guys buy Monster or CareerBuilder, or just do it. Just one of you guys... Chad: Don't do it. Joel: The Germans at Personio need to go down to Randstad... Chad: Don't do it. Joel: They need to write a check... Chad: Don't do it. Joel: And get Monster. 'Cause they're a sourcing tool. They could do sourcing, Monster, the whole thing, dude, and go public with Monster in the portfolio. Come on. Come on, do it. Give it to me, Personio. Chad: Don't do it. Joel: Give it to me. Come on. Chad: Don't do it. Joel: Please. [laughter] Lieven: The only reason why I would not buy Personio is if they bought Monster. Come on. Seriously. [laughter] Chad: I'm with you... Lieven: Who would be... Okay, I'm not supposed to be talking about Monster now. We're talking about Personio. But I think in this case, the Germans... SFX: Just the tip. Lieven: Are right to take a shot at America. Someone has to tell you how it's supposed to be done. And I like that their website, they offer 50%, how do you say it, discount to nonprofit organizations. So that's so, so nice of them. So it's a buy. And also because they're going for an IPO and I think that's where the big money is. So if you buy now, then we could make something more. Chad: So do you think in 2024, we're gonna see some successful IPOs in this space? In our space? Lieven: StepStone has been announcing their IPO in 2022 and still fine. I didn't hear anything about it anymore, but they were supposed to go IPO in 2023. I can imagine the market isn't exactly right now, but if the situation in Ukraine is stabilizing, then suddenly there will be lots of interest for IPOs, I'm sure. And the market is ready. There's so much money. But people are a bit... They have cold feet about investing it right now. So it's just becoming more and more money and it needs to find a way. IPO is a big idea. But we'll see. We'll see. I go for Personio. Joel: Well, the podcast where there are never cold feet, that is The Chad and Cheese Podcast's Europe. That's another one in the can, boys. Fun as always. We out. Chad: We out. Lieven: We out. [music] Lieven: I didn't get a call from one candy, not one. [laughter] Chad: No, no call from a candy? Lieven: No candy at all. No. [laughter] Lieven: I mean, candy, candy, candy, I can't let you go. I mean, if I don't have a candy, I can't let her go. Oh, well. Joel: We out. Lieven: We out. [laughter] OUTRO: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the The Chad and Cheese Podcast, or maybe you cheated and fast-forward it to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back, valuable time you could've used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey, or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckle heads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite western, you can't quit them either. We out.

The news this week is hot. In fact, in the time it took to write that sentence, the news got a little hotter. We're talkin' picket lines, Josh Bersin trash-talkin', LinkedIn is your new crazy uncle NOT. We're talkin' Amazon is droppin' billions to invest in generative AI companies, job boards are bailin' on ChapGPT job searchin', Getty Images sealin' its content from AI hot. And we're talkin' NFL stars goin' into porn after football HOT! Someone get us a cold beer and a fire extinguisher!!! TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: Oh yeah... Nachos and lemon heads on my dad's boat. Hey kids, you're listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. This is your co-host, Joel Brennan Cheesman. Chad: And this is Chad Mambo Number Five Sowash. Joel: And on this week's show, job boards have a prompt problem, employers have a Big Brother complex, and LinkedIn has a weirdness issue. Let's do this. Alright dude, you and Berson. Chad: What? Joel: What the hell? Chad: I just had the challenge his bullshit. Okay, so after last week's show, a listener forwarded me a tweet from Josh Berson's Twitter account, and Berson's messaging was totally anti-union and anti-worker, so I took a screenshot, posted it on LinkedIn with a few choice words and I got a shit ton of activity on the DM side, which I thought was incredibly weird, and Josh even DMed me. He said he would love to hear more about the UAW wage issue. And then he points to two articles in The Atlantic that he's using for a base of reference, not data points, no BLS, not wage calculators, but a couple of fucking articles. So anyway, I was like... And then he asked me where I got mine from, I'm like, Dude, give me a fucking break. You're a global analyst, BLS data, wage calculators, there are tons of data sourced, well sourced data that's out there, I'm not your fucking research assistant. Okay, anyways then, no shit, I get a DM from another listener who asked me if I had heard his last, Josh Berson's last Podcast episode, which totally trashes the UAW. Joel: He's got a podcast? Chad: Yeah, apparently, apparently. Ramblings of a crazy man. Anyway, I hadn't... So I listened to it and I had to listen to it three times because it was surreal. We have a global industry analyst that sounds like a drunken uncle on Thanksgiving Day. I mean, nothing but lazy nebulous mentions and babblings about nothing. Then I'm just sitting here, I'm absorbing this, I'm not saying anything, I'm just absorbing it. Then I get a... And then I get tagged in a LinkedIn post by Dr. Jim, which outlined and somewhat trashed the very same podcast episode I was just talking about from Josh Berson, and let's go ahead and paraphrase Dr. Jim's post. SFX: What you just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have I've ever heard, at no point in your rambling, incoherent response, were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought, everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. Chad: And I listened to it three times, so therefore, my head was spinning, so I've gotta push myself away, but that was it, man. I mean, it's just... You've got these industry leaders who say stuff, they have a pulpit, they have things to say, I totally get that, and I understand that, but don't come with this fucking weak sauce if you're going to have data, which you should have shit tons of. Chad: Not your own data, because you just manufacture that shit, I'm talking about things that real research firms do have... Take a look at that, BLS source data, that kind of thing, wage calculators, MIT, Harvard Business Review, that kind of stuff, right? Use that and then start to create a narrative around that and then we can have a discussion, but just the crazy ramblings, I just... I don't have time for it. We're podcasters, we're supposed to crazy ramble, right, but we come with the fucking data, I mean, I just don't expect that from guys of his "caliber." Joel: And doesn't he have staff to find out some of the stuff for him anyway? Chad: I think he's got research assistants. Most people write the shit for him for God sakes, I mean, which I get. Joel: PhD students and shit working for him, I don't know. Chad: Yeah. No fucking clue dude. Joel: Everybody, this is Chad like when he's been in America for too long, and it's time to get his ass back to Europe, like Chad is at ultimate saltiness right now, everyone stay clear of pissing chad off 'cause this is what you're gonna get, you're gonna get, you're gonna get the salt. Chad: And I wasn't mad, I just... It's unnerving, man. And then all of these people, this is the thing that drives me the most crazy people that are afraid to actually speak truth to power... Joel: Chad my mother, my mother always said the clothes don't get clean without the agitator, and you and me, my friend, are a couple of agitators, but the clothes won't get clean otherwise. You know what I'm saying? Chad: They won't. SFX: Shoutout. Joel: Alright, Jeez. We've spent a lot of time on that. I gotta shoutout the US News and World Report, remember that magazine? I'm sure you subscribed to it back in 2002. Chad: When I was 10. Joel: Anyway, they're still around, and they just published their best HR software of 2023 report, here's how it broke down for solutions that our audience cares about... Alright, best overall, technology goes to Rippling, the best budget goes to Deal... The best deal is a at Deal, if you know, I'm saying Chad. Best for small businesses goes to Gusto. Best for remote teams, ConnecTeam, best recruitment and application tracking goes to Workable, maybe Gem will win it next year as they're launching an ATS here pretty soon, but that is my first shoutout. One, the US News and World Report is still around, so shoutout to them, and secondly to all the winners of their the illustrious best software tools in HR for 2023. Chad: The worst. SFX: Just the a tip. Chad: US News and World Report has come out with a list, that's saying something. Chad: Alright, shoutout to bad presentation titles, companies still can't understand why viewers don't show up to webinars and or their presentations at in-person events. Here's one key factor, your title sucks. So this week's winner of The worst presentation title goes to drum roll, please... Employ. That's right, Employ with their "Augmenting AI and Automation with Human Ability: Striking the balance in your hiring approach." A horrible God-forsaken title. This week's winner is Employ. Now, you might say be saying to yourself, How can I take such a horribly rambling title and make it better... How can I do that Chad? That's a very good question. That's the exact same question I asked three of my new AI buddies, here's their best shot at these titles, ChatGPT answered with "Balancing AI and Human Skills in Hiring." Nice, concise. Our friend Bard's top answer was "Human-centered: Iring in the age of AI." Joel: Oh, I like that too. Chad: Yeah. I do like that one. And our new friend Claude, who were gonna talk about later in the show, came up with "Human-centered Hiring in The Age of AI." It's the exact same thing is ChatGPT. The only difference is they went with human ability instead of human skills, so people, if you're gonna talk about using AI, especially if you're gonna do a fucking presentation about it, use AI, make your shit better at least give yourself some options. Joel: Keep it tight. SFX: Just the tip. Joel: Alright, by the way this goes for conference titles for presentations and discussions. Chad: Yes, Oh, my God! Joel: Because you and I as the disruption stage MCs, have thrown many titles back to people and say, fix this shit 'cause it's not gonna work. Chad: This is bad. Joel: No one's gonna come to this thing and that... Chad: And don't get mad at me if they don't. Joel: Exactly, exactly. And if you pay money, take extra time to make sure that it's a title that someone might actually... Chad: Come on. Joel: Might actually come to. Think of it as clickbait. What would make people wanna come? Click find out more, and go from there. Well, my shoutout and this will end our shoutout goes out to dress codes, gag and looking at me, you know I'm one to adhere to the dress code. Chad: I can see. I can see. Joel: But the senate unanimously passed a resolution to reinstate the formal dress code requiring senators to wear business attire on the floor. This comes after Senate Majority Leader, Chuck Schumer, told members that he was relaxing the Senate floor's dress code, leading to Pennsylvania Senator John Fetterman to embrace his trademark shorts and hoodie uniform within the halls of Congress. Formality does have a place in this world, Chad and both parties can agree that the Halls of Congress is such a place, shutout from me to dress codes. Chad: That escalated quickly. Chad: There are reasons for dress codes, don't get me wrong, but I think one of the things, especially in politics today, is that we are so divided and we feel like obviously, the politicians are in an ivory tower. You take a look at a guy like John Fetterman, you don't think that, especially when he's in a hoodie, and it's almost like throwback to the Zuckerberg days, right? When you're just a developer. And that's who he was, and that's who he was gonna be... In this case, you know. Yes, if there is a uniform, you definitely have to go buy a uniform, if you're in the military, you've got a uniform... If you're working for Cintas, you have a uniform. There are uniforms. There's no question. The big question for me is, what do we do? If it's dress, it can't just be dress, but I think around being able to seem more like a normal human being because politicians don't... They don't, and you know what they could be doing? They could be going to chadcheese.com/free, registering for a free T-shirt and wearing that on the Senate floor. Joel: Now that's something all parties can get behind Chad. Chad: I kow. Yes, and JobGet would love it, obviously, because they're the sponsor of the t-shirts, plus these guys love alcohol, so they can get free beer from Aspen Tech Labs. That'd be awesome. Whiskey, two bottles of whiskey from Textkernel and if it's your birthday, which it is this week for a very big name that we know we'll get there soon, I'm not gonna spoil it Joel, Rum with Plum. You could can win Rum with Plum. SFX: Can you feel the tension here right now. I know I can. I can feel it all the way down to my plums. Joel: By the way, Chad, speaking of dress codes, I may or may not be wearing pants on this week's show. Chad: I did not need to know that. Joel: I'll let you use your imagination for that. Chad: I did not need to know that. Joel: That's right, folks. Another trip around the sun for some of our biggest fans, shoutout goes to Kevin Grossman, Ling Wu. Chuck Geonadi. Liam Mcguire, Brett Farmallow, Gavin lamb, Andrea Darla, Karl Cruck, our European brother in podcasting, House of HR's Lieven Van Nieuwenhuyze. And last but not least, Chad, Stella Cheesman celebrates her birthday this week. My daughter is celebrating 14 years on planet Earth as my daughter. SFX: Happy birthday! Chad: You forgot Google turned 25 yesterday. Joel: Yeah, you posted that. You posted that. Some good screenshots from back in the day, do you remember when you first used Google? Chad: I do, and I also remember my executive director asking me, "What the fuck is a Google?" That was funny. "Why are you spending so much time on Google?" Like because it's the fucking shit anyway, anyway, anyway if you wanna take a look at new and cool tech, well, we've got events to talk about. First off, I wanna talk about one past event, Shoutout to Gem for having us at their virtual talent summit, where we discussed embracing the AI shift, the evolution of TA with Dr. Mona Sloane, she's amazing. EEOC, Commissioner Sonderling, love that guy. And on the day of the event, we had 2300 people watch the discussion for an average of 43 minutes. It was a 53-minute long presentation, 40... That just blew my mind. Joel: That's good. Chad: So needless to say, there is an amazing appetite for the topic of AI, you can go to the Gem website and watch it today or wait, and we will be dropping it in probably about 30 days or so on our YouTube channel. Joel: Then wait a minute, Boats 'n Hoes is in Vegas, baby. We've got HR Tech in Vegas, we're gonna be hanging out at the Fuel50 booth at the expo hall. Come visit us, bring a six-pack, some snacks, get a selfie, maybe get yourself a t-shirt and you know take a selfie with our dumb asses then... Oh my God, we're gonna go to Unleash World in Paris. We're gonna be in the Textkernel booth on day one, stop by. SFX: Alright. Alright. Alright. Chad: I think Joel is arranging a wine and cheese plate, if I could get a Charcuterie board, Joel, that would be amazing. Then I'm gonna be chilling like a villain in the Algarve until early December when I head off to London... That's London, England kids, not London, Ohio for TA tech Europe. So if you're in the UK, hell, if you're in Europe, hop on a plane train or the tube, and come and see me at TA tech Europe, see it, say it sorted at chadcheese.com/events, register. Joel: To London, see a far more relaxed and happy Chad Sowash in Europe... Joel: Alright, now let's talk about fantasy football, although it hurts my heart to talk about the leader board this week after losing a humiliating week to you. Thanks for playing Joe Burrow, I appreciate that. Chad: Gotcha! Joel: Could have set out, but he didn't. Alright, here's your leaderboard. As you all know, fantasy Football is sponsored by our friends at Factory Fix. Number one for the week goes to Marcy playground Mall. Number two is Smoking Joe Dickson followed by Michelle Despicable Mehan. And number four, Brent muss-burger lossy. Chad making strides to number five at Chad fucking Keenan Allen Sowash. Joel: Dean O'spot Osner. Number six, Seven, funky cold Medina Peril.Number eight, Gill went up a hill Patterson. Number Nine, from out of the seller, Jasper the friendly ghost Panjart. Number 10, Kristen Kringel Arburn, number 11, Joel rope-a-dope Cheesman. That's right, I'm just lolling everyone to sleep before I make my move, and Number 12 again, Dennis, it's getting comfortable down here, Topper. Round out. Chad: Michelle Sergeant. That's the second week in a row you got her name wrong, Michelle Sergeant. Joel: What did I say? Chad: Not Mehan... She's our other friend over at Plum, but... No, it's Michelle Sergeant. Sorry about that, Michelle, I got you. Joel: Well, what kind of Nickname am I gonna do for that? Okay. We'll come back next week for that... Sorry, sorry, clearly I need a break in Europe as well. Chad: Yes, you do. Topics. Joel: Alright, Chad, let's have a little UAW strike update or just strikes in general, seem to be spreading around the world. A few updates here, and we can comment Biden became the first sitting president to join an auto workers strike. Trump spoke to a non-union auto factory, Shawn Fain, the UAW boss hates Trump, but isn't yet endorsing Biden. By the time you hear this, the strike as likely expanded to other cities, there are probably... Or there are more layoffs, and there probably will be more as time goes by. Tesla shareholders are apparently a little nervous, the stock is down 7% in the last week as shareholders are fearful that Tesla workers will get a little squirrely and unionize on their own, and the Hollywood strike is over. That might be air quotes, and Vegas service workers that's in Las Vegas are striking, although details are a little sparse at the moment, just in time for us to go to Vegas, that could be a lot of fun if all the service workers are striking in Las Vegas. Chad: Not cool. Joel: Chad, any thoughts on all the striking going down... Chad: Yeah, I think so SAG-AFTRA, everybody was predicting that this was just going to drag out until everybody ran out of money, it didn't happen because I think the big names were lulled to sleep in thinking that they had enough content to wait this out, and then they look behind them and thought, Holy shit, Netflix is pulling all of this content from all over the world, it wasn't US content, but it was great content, and they have a pipeline and we don't have a pipeline. Fuck, so they got out flanked to some extent, but I think this is a nice plank indicator for unions. Chad: This is we still need a collective voice, and when you see a lot of these companies, when they're talking about the union, they're trying to break unions up, so that you don't have that power, that total consolidated one voice, hundreds thousands of people in one voice kind of power, they don't want that they wanna be dealing with you one by one in their office, so... It's interesting, I think it's incredibly interesting that last week you said that Shawn Fain was playing a political card, well, if he was, he laid all that shit down on the deck because Biden was there, Trump wanted to be there and he told him to fuck off. Joel: If I were him, I would have kept Trump at least in the purview of saying, Hey, whichever one of you idiots can get us the deal that we want, at least put it out there that we're gonna be supporting you as president in the next election. He's basically taken Trump off the table. Trump talking to a non-union shop... I don't even know what to think about. It was like the signs that people are holding up or like pro-union, It was just really weird. Chad: And nobody was in the union in... Joel: No no. Chad: No. Yeah. Joel: That was just weird. That was all optics. I don't even know what to think about that. But he's clearly put his cards with Biden, maybe Biden has told him, Hey, look, we're gonna get this done. I'm gonna get your folks what they need. And if Biden can do that, I think he's the next president. Because I do still think that the auto workers, particularly in the States where they operate Michigan in particular, are swing states, to put whoever gets them what they want into the White House. So hopefully Biden has what he wants. Biden was there for like, not a long time. There wasn't a lot of Q&A. It was like, show up, get photos, sound, say your sound bites, and get the hell out of town. The real pudding will be in that is if this deal gets done if Biden hopefully is behind the scenes working with this, the car makers and the union, like how do we get this done and promising things in the future. Joel: Really interesting that Tesla is concerned about unionization. They've, I think, strategically gone to states where unions are not really welcome. We'll see what happens there. Those are mostly right to work states, so you don't have to join a union as I understand it. So we'll see what happens. But if union workers see the big three get, $20 more an hour, there's gonna be a little bit of pushback on that. Ultimately, automation is gonna take a lot of this stuff, which I think is, this is the time to move, on more funds. Automation is gonna continue to happen. Offshoring or Nearshoring to Mexico is gonna continue to happen. So right now is the time for the auto workers to get what's theirs. They've been fucked over and since we've been alive. Chad and good on them I hope that they do that without bankrupting the auto companies, which... Chad: They're at fucking record profits dude, that's so much bullshit. Bankrupting the fucking... Joel: We'll see, companies go out of business. I don't know. I don't think it'll be the workers though. It'll be Tesla that does Tesla and Toyota. The Vegas thing is gonna be interesting. I can't imagine Vegas if this, all the service workers go on strike. It's gonna be a meltdown, in Vegas if something like that happens. So we'll be watching that as well. Overall labor's having a moment. Whether it's UPS getting what they want, some are when it, you need leverage to get what you want some are like head fakes. I think the Google tech unionization has been sort of a dud. We talked about grinder workers getting unionized and we'll see what happens there. But union is unionization and unions are having a moment. It's fun to talk about some with leverage are winning others not so much, but they definitely are thinking that we need to get ours 'cause we've been getting effed over with inflation rising and everything else going on. We need to get paid. And this is a reaction to all that stuff. Chad: And UPS in a very smart way, got their people back to work because why? What, time of the year is it Joel? Joel: Christmas. The holidays, packages. Yep, yep and we continue to talk about companies hiring. I know Dick's sporting goods, dicks.com, one of your favorite sites Chad, you gotta go out there for that. And, yeah. Companies are announcing a lot of seasonal hiring, so that's all great. Also, a lot of generative AI news out there, Chad, which we wanna talk about. Some bumps in the AI road this week. However Amazon, who is mass hiring, who should also be able to develop some homegrown AI is investing $4 billion in AI firm Anthropic to compete in the AI industry and enhance generative AI for its online platform, amazon.com. Chad, what are your thoughts on Amazon's big bet on Anthropic? Chad: So Open AI plus Microsoft, they have ChatGPT, Google has Bard, and now Anthropic plus Amazon, they have Claude. Who the fuck is naming these chatbots? There's no way in hell that marketing had anything to do with the naming. And when Bard is the best name of them all. Joel: It might be Employ based on their webinar titles, they might be the ones naming all these AIs. Chad: That's a very good point anyway, anyway, anyway. I guess they aren't sweating the small naming stuff because the big stuff, this was inevitable as Cloud providers like Microsoft, Google, and Amazon will make loads of cash offering companies currently using their Cloud infrastructure to easily adopt generative AI. Amazon doesn't want a huge client leaving AWS for Google Cloud because Google can provide a shit hot product that Amazon can't. So Claude was already available in AWS before this, but this cements Anthropic's focus on their new sugar daddy, Amazon. So that's the enterprise side of the house. On the transactional side of the house you know, Google and Amazon wanna drive more purchases through their platform, and generative AI can help with better shopping or recommendations and results. It's all about getting that stuff that people are yearning for in front of them so that they spend the dollar. So it will be interesting to see how Facebook and Elon Musk compete with these gigantic organizations. Joel: 4 billion is no joke. That's a lot of money. I don't know the terms of the deal, but certainly they're getting in bed with Anthropic in a big way. I think where the benefit to Amazon comes from is that Claude says it ensures speedy and friendly resolution to customer service request saving costs, and increasing customer satisfaction. So if you look at something that Amazon needs and can get better at, it's that customer service piece. And by the way, this could help eliminate some human beings from the customer service department, which obviously saves Amazon a ton of money. Amazon also has to worry about Shopify, a lot of retailers and people who just sort of sell Etsy type sellers are looking at their own stores. Shopify's having a moment. Amazon wants to keep those folks on their platform. Joel: This is a way to sort of help them do that if they can create their own customer service product for their store owners, that's obviously a big plus. And if they keep it out of the hands of Shopify, they stick it to a competitor in the process. So to me, it makes sense. Hopefully eventually, if there is an acquisition, they're gonna get the talent that's add Anthropic and add extra value. The AWS play, I think is really interesting as well. How much does this play into that product? I know there's some talk about spinning off AWS from the Amazon platform. Does Anthropic become an arm of AWS and AI solutions that you can plug in, your business into that? Joel: So I think it's a pretty smart buy, time will tell. It's a lot of money but it is certainly where things are going so thumbs up for me at least on Amazon's move into AI. Amazon is not the only one though Chad, that's having a moment with generative AI. On the job search front, an industry vendor alerted us to the fact that his site has temporarily scrapped their ChatGPT like job search because it "wasn't producing the results that users needed in." Chad, your thoughts on this impact on the job board industry? Chad: I appreciate the attempt, but you have to remember that AI is like a puppy. It's gonna shit on the carpet until it's trained not to. So you're going to get shitty search results right out of the gate. But if you want to see something that's actually working, Google is augmenting their traditional search with generative AI, not making it one option. Right. Just being able to add it as a part of the experience. Then you take a look at Google's Bard, which is now in Gmail, Drive, docs calendar, etcetera. That product is going to be shit for about six months while it trains. So vendors and users, remember AI is like a puppy. Feed it, clean up after it, just keep training it and don't give up. That's you can't expect out of the gate that generative AI is going to be shit hot. It's gonna take some time kids. Joel: I think you're saying it's not 100% Chad. SFX: 60% of the time, it works every time. Chad: If you're lucky, 60% of the time. Joel: Yeah. In addition to that, you know, I don't know, I didn't do a search with their solution. I can kind of visualize what it looked like, in addition to the results and what you're gonna get back. You know, people don't like change and we've spent 25 years training them on what a job board is supposed to do. You're supposed to put in a search, query a location, click go and see results. You mentioned Google earlier in the show, and you and I are old enough to remember when Google first came out, the brilliance of Google was that it wasn't Yahoo, it wasn't a bunch of links, a bunch of banner ads, a bunch of flashing lights with the job search box being kind of hidden with everything else you went to Google it was Google and a box and search, or I feel lucky. Chad: I feel lucky came later. Joel: Yeah. Even later. Right. Depending how far you go back. But they knew that no one has any idea what this is. We need to make it as simple as possible. They only have one thing to do. Type something in and go search and job boards have spent 25 years training people on this is what you do on a job search site. If you throw some ChatGPT stuff at them, they're gonna be a little bit freaked out and confused and it's not like they don't have other options. They can just click the back button on Google and go to the next site in the search results. Chad: Yeah. Joel: So if you're gonna like retrain job seekers, redo your site in terms of what that all looks like, you have to tread real lightly on what's going on and ease into it Chad, you know, don't get laid on the first date. Buy your visitors a drink or two to get them acclimated to what's going on. I think it's probably the future where this is going or just, we're gonna do the search for you, like put in sales and we're gonna Chat-GPT this thing and kind of do it for you. But don't freak people out. It's just too much too soon for a lot of them. Chad: Give them what they're used to, but then give them a little advance copy and that's exactly what Google if you're using the Google Labs version of the Google search, you'll see that, the bar generative AI is already in the search. But it doesn't change your experience, it just adds to the experience. Joel: And for listeners of the show, you know this is the time where we take a break to hear from our sponsors, and please listen to the ads because there is no show without them. We'll be right back. Joel: All right, Chad, let's talk images. And you know what I'm talking about. Chad: I do. Joel: Getty. Getty Images is partnering with NVIDIA, or NVIDIA, sorry, two launch generative AI allowing users to create images using Getty's vast licensed photo library with full copyright protection. The tool is based on NVIDIA 's edify model and can generate realistic human figures, but has limitations on certain image types and real world names. Generated images won't be added to Getty's libraries and creators will be compensated if their AI generated images are used for training. The tool is available separately from standard Getty images subscriptions with pricing based on prompt volume. Chad, your thoughts on the latest move by Getty Images? Chad: Yes. Acquisition, acquisition, acquisition. That will be the path for many of these companies to drive the next generation of their business. Why? Because Getty is using their massive database of art and photos of which they own and or they share with obviously licenses and using AI to generate variations of those works. But the models only train off of what Getty currently owns. Chad: So if Getty has a bigger database of content through acquisition of companies like Shutterstock, Paxels, iStock, and others, the ability to create better and more variants go through the fucking roof. So this is a model for the next generation. Access more data, build bigger databases for models to train off of and continue adding content/data to those models. Could be pictures, libraries of books, film scripts, and the possibilities just keep coming. So it's exciting to see, but it's also alarming because the companies with the most money will have the best computing power. Chad: Like you said, NVIDIA, it costs $40,000 to get one of NVIDIA's newest GPU chips, right? And most of those we saw and we reported on a few weeks ago, are going to the big players, the fangs, right? So if you're a little guy, it's gonna be incredibly hard to break through. You're not gonna have the computing power, you're not gonna have the money for acquisition unless you're in a niche domain like some of the vendors in our space, and you've already been training models for years and you've been training and you have data that's automatically flowing into your system from candidates, from employers, etcetera, etcetera. So it depends. But in some of these models, it's gonna be incredibly hard for smaller organizations to compete. Joel: Yeah. I would say the number of organizations that have the money to create these models is very limited. The rule of law is what's going to come into play for all these cases. We talked about the New York Times, walling off their content there's a lawsuit, I think this week from a lot of authors, that are popular, that have basically sued OpenAI in any kind of generative AI from taking the content of their books and basically coming to a point where they could rewrite new books by Michael Crichton in his voice. Create entirely new works based on what he's already done. And he's not even involved. Images is another one. Dolly is OpenAI's image producer. If Getty starts lose, if you can just make an image of Tom Cruise on a plane, [laughter] you don't need to go to Getty Images or any other photo app. Joel: So I don't think they have the money to create their own. I think this is a lot of head fake to say, look, we're building this ourselves. We're walling things off when in their back of their minds, they know the chances of them winning a court case or winning the court case that says OpenAI has to pay and this all goes back to the fair use laws that are in place that basically say you can take a snippet of something. You can't take the entire thing OpenAI thinks they can. We'll see what the law thinks. We talk about Google on this show, when you search Google the number of characters that you see in a search result if they go past that, they start treading the line, of violating fair use laws. So there's gonna be a court case probably next year that says, no OpenAI they can't do this without compensating, which is probably where it's going. Joel: And then they're gonna have to figure out a model where everyone gets paid. Just like music and everything else. And everybody will be happy but until then, I think these companies are saying, how do we close this off? How do we scare OpenAI to get what we want? But ultimately it's gonna come to the courts and how they resolve this is gonna be judiciously not opening up the bank accounts and the wallets to create their own stuff 'cause they don't have the pockets to do that. Let alone authors, people like you and me with a podcast if we're gonna train AI, do we get paid? Should we get paid? And how much we get paid is what's gonna come down to, I think. Chad: Exactly. And then we just saw news that Spotify is going to do what Chad and Cheese have been doing for months. They're going to clone voices and they're gonna start flipping those English and or other languages into additional foreign languages. I mean, you know, again we were first to do this shit but, you know, Spotify's gonna make it easier. Joel: Such pioneers. Chad: If NVIDIA is pushing cash their way, they've got the AI operating system on top of those GPUs. I mean, there's a good opportunity that's there. The big question is, is there going to be, let's say, for instance, an acquisition of Getty by somebody like NVIDIA or Google or what have you, to be able to train their models? 'Cause Google and Gemini AI is multimodal. So that's the next big step. Not just text, but being able to get into like a mid journey kind of scenario or Dahlia kind of scenario. Joel: I think the tech companies are gonna pay. Chad: I agree. Joel: Whether they like to get away with it or not. All right. Let's go to, another company that may have to pay or should be paying, LinkedIn. Chad: Yes. Joel: A story from Business Insider entitled, "It's not just you. LinkedIn has gotten really weird," caught our attention this week, though. Traditionally a platform for professional networking and job related content, LinkedIn has seen a surge in personal training, personal sharing, and unconventional posts in recent years. The author says the shift towards personal sharing on LinkedIn can be attributed to evolving social norms, the blurring of work-life boundaries during the pandemic, and a generational shift among younger users who are more open about sharing their personal lives with colleagues. However, the trend has also sparked debates about what is considered professional behavior with some users pushing the boundaries of what is appropriate to share on a professional network." Chad, is LinkedIn getting too weird for your tastes? Chad: So a question for you, because you believe in kinda like the buttoned up, pieces of the world, like the Senate and making sure that John Fetterman wears a suit. What do you think about this? Because you've been on plenty of different social platforms, what do you think? Joel: So I think in the early days of LinkedIn, it was sort of considered buttoned up. It was work only things that were relevant to work, right? Keep your social stuff on Facebook and now there's other things that you can put fun things on. I think what really changed that, I don't think it's as much the pandemic or younger people getting on LinkedIn. In my opinion when Facebook and TikTok became algorithmic, became here's stuff for you that isn't necessarily stuff that you signed up for, but we're gonna serve it to you because we know your behavior. We know you like World War II history. We know you like big booty Latinas. We know you like bug fights. Like, so these, the social networks that just be, that used to be, Hey, what's Chad doing? Hey, what's my sister doing? Joel: Hey, what's my dad up? Like that sort of out the window. I get very little content about, what I wanna see in people who I follow. So the default for that now is LinkedIn. LinkedIn is now, oh what are people that I hang out at conferences or follow up companies? What are they doing? And it's less about share an article from the Economist and more about what's going on. I think that work has become more social. I think LinkedIn has become the place because there's nowhere else to go for sort of, here's just people you follow and what they're doing or companies that you follow. The minute that LinkedIn becomes, "Hey, we're just gonna serve you stuff that we think that you like based on your preferences," then, where do you go? I don't know, maybe like just little networks or groups. Joel: But I think it has more to do with just, we have nowhere else to go, that we can decide what we look at and see than LinkedIn. I'm all for it. I'm all like, I'm here, you know, you and me on this podcast. We don't have bosses. We are who we are. And we bring that to LinkedIn and people like that authenticity, they like that, that we are who we are. And I think that that is really what's coming out on LinkedIn. I don't think it's weird at all. Joel: Now, the creepy stuff with dudes hitting on women and you know, that stuff is probably way out of bounds and shouldn't be happening no matter what. But just the typical, "Hey, what are you doing with your kids?" Or what's, you're on holiday? Like, I don't, that doesn't matter I'm cool with that because these work people are friends and I wanna see what they're doing on a personal level. It's like, Joe Shaker always says, make a friend, make a deal. [laughter] You can make friends a lot easier and make deals a lot easier in that way if you're yourself on LinkedIn and not some buttoned up caricature of what you think people wanna see. Chad: It comes down to, especially in LinkedIn or any social media, you can de-friend anybody, you can hide some content in some social platforms. It's not like this guy was trying to spread propaganda to fix an election or anything. I mean this isn't Cambridge Analytica? If you don't agree, comment and start a conversation. If it's a troll, unfriend them. Too much thought and effort is taken by people who don't work at LinkedIn on the subject. Let LinkedIn worry about this kind of shit. Right. Their user, their usage. Chad: Not to mention, you take a look at a lot of people who actually left Twitter because they didn't like what it was turning into, maybe they didn't wanna pay. Maybe they didn't like Elon Shenanigans. Well, they need an outlet to be able to do these things. They're familiar with LinkedIn. Right. So I think for us, it's fairly simple. Just be who you are and allow other people to be who they are. And you know, if you disagree or you'd like to challenge people, do that there's nothing wrong with that. But also be ready to be de-friended and that's all good. Joel: Yeah. I think what you and I don't appreciate is, you know, people who do have a job, people who do have a boss, people who do have a brand that they represent and there's a line that they can't cross or don't think that they can cross. The good news is more and more companies are letting people be themselves and they realize that that is a good thing. Like, that's okay. People aren't gonna launch bombs and grenades online. They're just gonna be people. And that's what your company's made up of. So I think as companies get more used to it, people are getting more used to it. Joel: And articles like this are being written because people are letting their hair down and be who they are. But there is a limit of being who you are Chad and our friend Tyreek Hill is treading on that line. We'll talk about him right after the break. Joel: That's right Chad. Some of us wanna retire to Portugal, many of us may never retire, but one NFL wide receiver has a unique perspective on life after football. Miami Dolphins wide receiver, Tyreek Hill, recently surprised fans by revealing his desire to pursue a career in the adult film industry after retiring from football. During a Twitch stream with fellow NFL player, Mike Evans, Hill expressed his aspiration to become a porn star and asked Evans for his opinion. Evans seemed unsure how to respond to Hill's statement. Something tells me you might have a response Chad. Chad: So I watched the video of all of this happening, like the Twitch video. And I really thought at first that Hill was fucking with Evans. Evans didn't know what to say. I mean, he was like really taken aback. He was like, I mean there was this long really uncomfortable pause and Hill was like, what? You don't think so? I mean, come on. So I almost think that he was fucking with him. But, you know, at the end of the day, allow Tyreek Hill to do Tyreek Hill, much like we're talking about on LinkedIn, you do you on LinkedIn. Okay. Tyreek Hill, you do you in life. Joel: Yep. Yep. I got two words. Two words Chad VR and AI. A day is coming where we can watch anyone famous or not do the dirty online with AI. And if you want the sensation of actually having sex with said person, there's going to be a VR headset with your name on it. The good news... Chad: So Creepy. Joel: Tyreek can go ahead and license his image for some virtual freaky dicky and hope the courts uphold that license. [laughter] Chad, I sense you and I will not have similar opportunities to license our image for such pleasantries. Did I mention that I may or may not be wearing pants for this episode? Chad: We out. Joel: We out. Intro: So creepy. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell. Enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey. Or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back like an awful train wreck. You can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

The world seems to be balancing a lot of good news with the bad news these days. At least that’s an improvement from the days of COVID when it was all bad. Anyway, that same balance impacts the recruiting industry, and thus this episode. The good news: Amazon, Salesforce are hiring and companies like HiBob, Druid, Catalyte, Betterleap and others are raising new funds. The bad news: Google just laid-off hundreds of recruiters globally and Oyster, who’s raised $224 million is going through its second round of layoffs this year. Then the boys cover the UAW strike vs. the Big Three, ask whether we really need CEOs when there’s AI and wonder why Elon isn’t turning X (formerly Twitter) into an OnlyFans competitor. Even Rep. Lauren Boebert would approve. Enjoy. TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level. Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for The Chad and Cheese podcast. [music] Joel: Oh, yeah. Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice. You are listening to The Chad and Cheese Podcast. This is your co-host, Joel "Boebert" Cheeseman. Chad: Chad "earth, wind, and fire" Sowash. Joel: And on this week's show, big hiring sprees, big funding rounds, and Detroit's big three. Let's do this. Chad: Man, we got a primer to the day. We actually had a chance to speak to VMware's entire Talent Acquisition Department, which I thought was pretty fucking cool. Joel: I love the corporate gigs. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: I love 'em. They're so refreshing, the questions are great. It's like, the foot soldiers, engaging with them, what's on their mind? I could do a corporate gig Chad and Cheese every week. [laughter] Joel: I love 'em so much. I love 'em so much. Chad: It does kind of like get you all pumped up and all excited 'cause these are the people. These are the recruiters, these are the managers, these are obviously the VPs who drive the entire business. You cannot drive a business without talent. Without these people, you don't have talent. So thanks to Kent, Samantha and the team over at VMware for having us answer questions and do our Chad and Cheese thing, we had a blast. [applause] Joel: Yeah, love it. And there's never been more questions and certainly like, "What the hell's going on?" In the 25 years or so that I've doing this. So that's great. Did you see the Lauren Boebert Beetlejuice play footage? Chad: You mean handjob? Joel: Yeah. [chuckle] Chad: I mean, what! Joel: The handie and the vaping. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: That was amazing. The vaping. Chad: So proud of our elected officials. Just so proud. Joel: So good. So good. Just for the kids out there, it's the people that protest the much... Protest the most that are the ones doing what they're protesting. So it's like the person that is like the big Bible belt, the Bible thumper, they're the one in chains and a gag getting whipped by S&M shit. It's the relationship like, I don't trust you. They're usually the one that should be not... Should be trusted less. Anyway, note for the kids, but I had a good time and if she ever wants to come on the show or come to a Chad and Cheese party like, [laughter] she's more than welcome. She can throw it down. She can throw down. That was a first date, Chad. Chad: Not surprising, dude. Just not [laughter] surprising. Yes, I'm gonna leave it at that. Joel: Oh my God. Oh my God. Well, are you recovered from Wreckfest? Chad: Somewhat. Somewhat. Had a blast. That was amazing and have to definitely say the Booze Cruise with Hackajob and then karaoke after where we both got on stage, not together but we both got on stage, it was a blast. And then we showed up the next day, and usually day two of a conference is it's like crickets. Because it's really hard to have somebody have a bunch of people go out drinking and then show up the next day, they had 80% plus return rate. Which I thought was ridiculous. Joel: That's pretty good. Chad: Yes. Good for them. Joel: That's pretty good. That's pretty good. And there wasn't even like a hangover station. Chad: There wasn't. Joel: Where people get IVs and get rehydrated. Chad: You know what? That can be a sponsored station next year. [laughter] Chad: Dude, if you've ever had an IV, oh, it just, it fixes things in a heartbeat. Joel: That would be a good sponsorship. And that would be noteworthy. That'd be social media gold, hanging at the hangover. Hangover. Okay. Chad: I have plenty of stories behind the IV, but we'll save that for later. SFX: Shoutout. Joel: We'll save that. We got a lot of stuff to do. Chad: Oh yes. We do. Joel: We got a lot going on this week. Chad: Let's push through. Yes. Joel: Let's go to shoutouts. Yeah. I'm gonna go first. Elon Musk. Chad: Oh Mike, really? Joel: Elon discussed plans for Twitter or now X during a live stream with Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu, boy that's a party, proposing a monthly fee to combat bots and sharing user metrics. The man who has disparaged transgender people, federal regulators, politicians, journalists, whistleblowers, critics of his companies, and short sellers told Netanyahu, "We can't do that if there's a lot of infighting and hatred and negativity," talking about being on social media. So Chad, are you ready to pay up for Elon's new? Chad: Nothing like killing the base even more than what it already is. His biggest problem is brand in and the problem with X right now is him. He needs to let Linda Yaccarino actually do her fucking job and he needs to go ahead and eject out and start focusing on rockets that aren't exploding in midair. Again, this is not an engineering problem, this is a people problem, and he is not a people person so he needs to eject because he's just killing this platform. It's horrible. [chuckle] Chad: It's horrible. Joel: I find it fascinating how it's been politicized. People are just losing their minds on social media. Twitter's really always been, for me, a marketing outlet. It's been a way for me to connect, tell people what I'm doing. And full disclosure, I do pay for Twitter. I don't have a problem with it. They verified my identity. Look, I think Elon's gonna... I'm along for the ride. I think Elon's gonna add stuff, it'll be interesting, there's metrics around it. But it's never been like a platform for me to be political or give my opinions, it's been a way to connect with people who follow me and give my opinions on stuff we're doing here on the show. But the way that it's been politicized and people get so fired up about this issue is pretty amusing to me. Chad: He's gonna politicize anything because he wants drama because that brings people. It's the Fox News Entertainment or any of the "news channel" entertainment way of drawing people in, and I got enough of that shit. I don't need it anymore, and you know what I'm not gonna do, I'm not gonna fucking pay for it, that's what's sure. But what I will do, hit it. [music] Chad: Is I will give a lot of love to my wife, Julie Sowash who today is our seventh anniversary. Yes, the 21st of September. And that's the day we met, or I shouldn't say the day we met, but that's the day when everything really started happening and we got married on that day as well. SFX: Alright, alright, alright. Chad: Happy Anniversary. Joel: Aww. My best to you guys. It warms my heart. Chad: The cockles of your heart, yes. Joel: To see pictures, it's just... Warms the cockles of my heart almost as much, Chad, as spicy nuggets. Alright, my shoutout goes to McDonald's. The goat of the McNugget kingdom is back at Nicky D's, [laughter] baby. You're probably unfamiliar with McDonald's spicy McNuggets 'cause you never go to McDonald's, but they were available about a year ago, and then they left. Well, they're back. They're back. Spicy nugs in buffalo sauce and maybe a pinch of ranch, and I'm in heaven, Chad. And the rumor has it, and I don't know how I feel about this, Canada's getting a leg up. SFX: Take off will you? We're doing a movie. [laughter] SFX: Don't wreck our show you hoser. Joel: Apparently Canada is getting the spicy nugs and a ghost pepper dipping sauce. Oh, Canada. Oh baby. Shoutout to the spicy McNuggets at McDonald's. Chad: Wow. That's weird. Well, one thing, you might have to pay for Twitter but you don't have to pay for free stuff at Chad and Cheese. That's right, you go to chadcheese.com/free, or just go to chadcheese.com, click on free in the upper right-hand corner, you're gonna get free t-shirt from JobGet. The possibility of winning free craft beer delivered to your front door from Aspen Tech Labs. Joel: We don't deliver this, Chad. We don't come to your door. Chad: UPS and those... They have air conditioning now so they can do that. Joel: Uber Eats. Chad: Whiskey, two bottles of whiskey. Not one, two bottles of whiskey from Textkernel, and then there's a little rum with Plum if it's your birthday, kids. Not to mention, did you see that Plum won a Stevie Award this week? Joel: And what's a Stevie Award, Chad? Chad: It's apparently this big award with... It's almost like the Oscars of town acquisition and technology. Rum with Plum baby, you get to win some rum, but you need some plums so go to plum.io, take your assessment, look internally, a little bit more about your self. Joel: I don't know if I wanna do that, Chad. Chad: Check it out. Joel: I don't know if I wanna do that. Chad: Yeah. And say unless you're Joel. [laughter] SFX: Really. Did you feel the tension in the air right now? I know I can. I can feel it all the way down my plums. Joel: Alright. Well, you know that sound means. Birthdays, Chad. We have a lot of fans 'cause we skipped last week 'cause we were in Nashville, but celebrating another trip around the sun. This week is Jim Lowe, Randall Emery, Eli Carstens, Lucas Roscoe, Eva Zils, Betsy Chuck Norris, Robert Saint-Jacques, Karen Heatwole, Mitchell Palermo, Katie Gentry, John T. Mehan, Kevin Lowe. Whether or not he's related to Jim or Rob, I don't know. Sean Luciens, Valerie Doyle, Joe Serio, Wendy Dodge, Zac Martin, Kevin Planton, Kelly Robinson, Katrina Kibin, John Sumpter, Shannon Seery, Casey Dockendorff, the best employment lawyer in Canada, by the way, celebrating a birthday, and my girl, Boston girl, Allyson Holbrook all celebrate a birthday this week. Chad: Nice. SFX: Happy birthday. Joel: That's a lot of love going around. Lot of candles on that cake, lot of candles on that cake. Chad: Well, here's some love right here 'cause we got wrecked at Wreckfest. That's right, the shaker. I love this shirt, Calli and the marketing team actually came up with it. Joel: They had to twist Joe Shaker's arm to get such a feisty message, get wrecked. Like you had to... The brand of that slowly to. He probably hates... Chad: It's sexy. Joel: Watching the Bears get wrecked every Sunday, and it kinda got home to him probably. Chad: That hurts, that hurts. But our events are travel sponsored by our friends at the Shaker Recruitment Marketing. Joel: That's right. Chad: Shaker.com. HR Tech's coming up, we're gonna be in booth 1125 and drinking, eating, wreaking havoc, and doing some interviews in the Fuel50 booth both days in the expo hall, thanks to the crew at Fuel50 for again, letting us crash at their place. I can't promise that Joe won't make a mess, although we're gonna be there no matter what. You've already agreed to it. Too late. Joel: Yeah, no promises. [laughter] No promises. Let's get into fantasy football, shall we? Chad: Yes. [music] Joel: Alright. Week two is in the books, we're heading into week three. Here's our leaderboard from Chad and Cheese Fantasy Football, sponsored by our friends at FactoryFix. Number one is Mercy Playground Mall, number two, Average Joe Dickson. By the way, Mercy got a D on her draft grade so she's doing pretty well. Number three is Dean Ragin Cajun Osner, number four Dina Pero for Paros. Number five, Brent I'm a Lucy baby. Number six, Chad So So Sowash. Chad: Yes. Joel: Number seven, Jill the Pounder Patterson. Number 8, Kristen The Warrior from Woonsocket Urban. Yeah, she's from Woonsocket, Connecticut, I think, wherever that... Maybe Delaware, anyway. Joel Stinky Cheeseman, 'cause I'm number nine, I'm not smelling real good. [laughter] Dennis, Dennis All-belt No Gas Tupper, who was last year's champion. And number 11, Jasper Hey I didn't sign up for this football Spenjar who had an A plus on his draft grade by the way, that is... Chad: Well, he was number one, A plus, and you had an A plus. Joel: I had an A plus too. Chad: And you're both at the bottom. Joel: Yes, yes. An A grade, you're not winning. An A plus grade, you're not winning. Chad: It's weird. Joel: Topics. Alright, we got a little bit of a... SFX: Play-offs. Chad: Layoffs. Joel: That's right. We got a big layoff. Oyster. Oysters raised $224 million per a CEO blog post this week. "The macro-economic environment has dramatically shifted creating headwinds for many businesses, including Oyster. These headwinds have dampened our growth expectations and radically changed the fundraising environment." They also had to lay off around about nine months ago, Chad. No word yet on the numbers of people that were affected by this. I'm curious of how their HR Tech booth will look. I'm guessing it might not be as impressive as maybe 8Fold's was. Chad: No. They paid for that a long time ago. HR Tech gets their money up front, you kidding me. [laughter] Joel: LinkedIn says they have 659 employees, which is kind of small for the Deels and the Remotes and those guys. So, yeah, Oyster, a big name, raised a lot of money. Another round of layoffs this year, shoutout. Not shoutout, but layoff update from Oyster. But there is hiring Chad, which brings us to our next story. We're done with layoffs. Chad: Give me the happy stuff. SFX: Playoffs. Joel: Alright, Amazon, your boys are hiring 250,000 employees for the holidays and making its largest ever annual investment in US hourly wages. The company will make a $1.3 billion investment this year to bring Amazon's average hourly pay to over $20.50 per hour across customer fulfillment and transportation in the US. Workers will also receive improved on-the-job safety training. But wait, there's more, Chad. Salesforce plans to hire over 3300 employees reversing previously layoffs driven by a focus on you guessed it, AI & machine learning integration into its services. Oh, and this just in, Chano Fernandez the former co-CEO of Workday, has found a new job as the co-CEO of Eightfold AI, that's beginning in January. Chad, what's your take on all this hiring news? Chad: Yeah, so Amazon is getting to be that time of year, go figure, they're going to be getting the hiring engines going. Oyster, macroeconomics, yes. Here's the thing, we all saw the sugar rush was happening. We all knew it was happening and we knew there would be a big fall off, so there's going to be some loss in staff. There's no question. But when you start, depending on the kind of percentages that you're talking about, we haven't seen, I don't believe many leave from Oyster. The Salesforce side of the house, so that's another big one. And they're looking for boomerangs, so you have to have a really good brand with your employees to after they quit to get them back. Right, the whole grass is greener scenario. The thing that bothers me the most about all of this is the new co-CEO at Eightfold. I mean, this guy is gonna make a ton of money for literally just re-shuffling deck chairs on the Eightfold Titanic. This guy isn't going to solve the current nebulous, what the actual fuck does Eightfold do, problem. Chad: I reached out to a bunch of industry experts, got some responses back. Here's the one I wanna share, "Eightfold's Talent Intelligence is a nice concept and story, but it's also our generation's HR tech snake oil. It's a mirage that's ripping off the industry by doing nothing that adds any real measurable value." That is pretty much what Eightfold has been since day one is a lot of talk and no walk. So this to me, co-CEOs, you're gonna spend more money on another CEO, what the fuck for? Joel: Overall, I love, I love this news. Amazon hiring a ton of people, Salesforce getting back people they laid off and realizing like, oh, maybe we over did it, maybe... Recession talk has cooled. Look, if you look at Google trends in terms of talk around recession, it spiked about a year ago, and it's gone down precipitously. Now, some people are still calling for it, and I think there is a level of recession some places and recession not in other places. We look at technology. I think talking to some vendors, that seemed to sort of bottom out in August and now it's gonna ramp up in the fall and into next year. Obviously the consumers are still buying things online, they're still looking for deals and keeping Amazon employees fat and happy. Healthcare continues to be huge money pouring into there, we'll get to the money in a little bit but in terms of some of this news, it's fantastic. Now, there was some bad news with Google talking about laying off hundreds of recruiters globally. I'm not sure how to exactly read into that, whether they're looking to automate all those positions. Joel: But look, some people it's the worst of times if you're in brick and mortar stuff, you're in some of the restaurants, cars, we'll talk about UAA or UAW in the car industry. But some industries are hurting, but others are doing really, really well and it depends on what side. The old adage is a recession is when your neighbor's out of a job and a depression is when you're out of a job. So it kind of depends on your perspective as to where you are on the fence, but overall, I love seeing the news of big hiring companies doing things like this. I think it bodes really well heading into the winter and into next year. I think we're gonna talk a lot more about big hires, particularly for technology companies who were the first to let everybody go and cut heads, I think. I'd love to see a lot more tech companies like Salesforce talk about AI machine learning, new products and features, and we're also talking a lot more about startups getting money, these are all really good things, and I think we've waited about six months for these kinds of stories to start percolating and they finally are. And I certainly applaud it. [applause] Chad: So news just came out, and I find this interesting because Amazon's getting ready to rev up their hiring engines. And news just came out that Walmart is going to start dropping their starting wages. So they boosted their starting wages, now they're gonna bring 'em back down. This is gonna be egg in their face because when they cannot find people to do the work that needs to get done... Joel: Yep. Chad: For them to make money because they're going to Amazon or they're going to all these other organizations because they didn't drop their starting wages, watch this one. Watch this one. Joel: Come on, Walmart. SFX: Boo. Chad: Dumb. Joel: See, that to me is, I think Amazon has done such a good job of delivering goods in a hours to days that people are being trained to, like, I just bought on Amazon, it's there that day or the next day. I mean, why my wife is an addict. Like she knows, oh, it's here. Like there's an alert on her app. Oh, it's here. Chad: Yeah. Joel: The idea of going to a store, a brick and mortar, like picking out stuff and Walmart has tried with, they bought Jet a few years ago. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Which is sort of a Costco online thing. That thing has gone nowhere apparently. Chad: Nope. Joel: Target's dropped the ball. So Amazon, to their credit has really changed, I guess, the behavior of consumers and they are obviously profiting from that while Target and Walmart are in pain from it. Chad: Yeah. Watch this though. When they start killing some of these bigger competitors, that same day delivery, that shit's gonna go away, kids. So again, like the sugar rush we talked about, this is how business works. They strangle the fuck outta their competitors. Joel: Yeah. Chad: And then when they're competitor, either they buy their competitors or they get off the market, then you're not gonna see the same kind of service that you've seen in the past. Get ready. Joel: Yeah. I mean, the last mile is still an issue. Who's gonna do that? I mean, they've done... Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: A good job with distribution centers all around the country. Chad: Yellow was the last mile like trucking company and they're fucking gone. Right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: So, yeah. I mean, we are paid, guys, to be watching all of this landscape shit stack up to be able to report it back to you or at least our opinions. Right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: And a little snark along with that. But yeah. Some shit's happening. Don't get used to that. [laughter] Joel: Yeah. A side note as well, a lot of talk on Wall Street and the sites that cover public companies that Workday is in trouble. Fernandez leaving for Eightfold. There's a lot of buzz about what the fuck is up with Workday. So we may be having some interesting stories about them in the weeks to come. Who knows? Chad: Here we go. Joel: But I'm excited, Chad, but I'm really excited because. [music] Chad: Here it is. Joel: That's right, that's right. Let's talk unicorns and mass investment in our space. The purse strings are starting to loosen up, Chad. HiBob announced 150 million in new funding, bringing its total capital raise to 574 million with a valuation of $2.66 billion. DRUID, a Romanian-based conversational AIS, AI solution has raised 30 million in a series B funding round, bringing its total to 50.6 million. Betterleap, who claims to have the largest database and the most accurate data in the recruitment market officially announced it's launch backed by 13 million in seed funding, not Series A and Catalyte, a Baltimore-based provider of what it's calling an AI powered end-to-end re-skilling platform raised 1.5 million in funding this week, bringing its total to $65 million. Chad, what is going on? Your take. Chad: So, HiBob. Okay. So whatever happened to expanding through organic revenues or maybe acquisition? I mean, why take so much goddamn money? At this point, they're going to have to go to IPO because there's no way in hell anybody is gonna buy these guys. I mean, they're just, they're not, unless they can get a Workday or somebody like that, or one of the acronyms. Joel: Oh, yeah. Chad: Right? You know, what your SAP or ADP or UKG to be able to buy them. I'm just not sure why this is necessary. I know why back in the day, like when LinkedIn started. When LinkedIn started, there was nothing on the web like LinkedIn, period, right? So they had to build it. They literally had no idea what productization and monetization was going to look like. So they needed the fuel, right? They needed it. HiBob, they, there's a whole segment of technologies that have been there and done that in that segment. So it's not like they have to create and re-productize and monetize. There's already a standard of how to do this. So I don't understand why they need to keep taking money. It's outta my mind. They've gotta be going IPO. Joel: IPO is interesting. And we didn't have this in our notes but we saw ARM go public recently. We saw what happened in NVIDIA, which isn't public but we saw Instacart go public and we're actually seeing Birkenstock. That's right, the sandal maker outta Germany go public. Chad: Yeah. Joel: So the public markets are opening up. I can't wait for Greenhouse or iSIMS or whoever to go public... Chad: Not for us, dude. Joel: To see how this thing shakes out. Chad: No way. Joel: We had some news. We had some news in THE SHRED today, and if you're not subscribed, you won't get THE SHRED. But we talked about Personio, another big European company who's talking already about an IPO in 2024. So the IPO stuff's gonna start loosening up. HiBob has no other option but to go public in my mind. We've talked about pub companies usually don't fail because they took too little money, they failed 'cause they took too much money. Chad: Yeah. Joel: And that does not bode well for Bob. But yeah, if the public markets open up, if whoever goes first in our industry does well, you're gonna see a flood of all these companies that are unicorns or were unicorns a year or two ago, start going public. And that's gonna be a ton of fun to talk about. HiBob will probably... Chad: Yeah. Joel: Be one of them. A few of the others, I mean, there's a fairly common thread with AI upskilling, a lot of the same themes that we've talked about for a long time. The one that really gets me is Betterleap. These guys are sourcing, basically sourcing circa 2017. They've apparently scraped everyone from LinkedIn to Indeed to everybody for a billion profiles. Who knows how fresh they are or how fresh they'll continue to be going forward but they got 13 million seed money. I mean, that's series A money and they got it out the gate. So let's watch them. That's gonna be a lot of fun because where they're in, the space they're in is not very very positive. I said earlier that they're gonna need 13 million just to fight, pay all the lawyers that they're gonna have to fight off Indeed and LinkedIn, everybody else for scraping all their data. Also add that what came through Bullhorn Ventures invested in Staffing Engine and Spark Hire acquired a company called Chally that's also in THE SHRED this week. But money coming, people getting hired, that's all good for the world and it's all good for this podcast. Chad: So Betterleap, their founders don't have, they have no experience in this space. [laughter] They're both product people. Joel: Yeah. Chad: To say that you have the world's largest database is one of the stupidest fucking things to do. You went to a data warehouse and you bought data from a data warehouse. Right? And anybody who's done anything in this industry for five minutes understands that most of that data house information is bullshit. It is fucking horrible. Right? So, I mean, to be able to boast those things, just to me automatically demonstrates that they are not mature enough to even understand our industry. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Or the history of our industry. The one that stuck out for me though was DRUID. Because 60% of DRUID's business is in the US and I think they're out of Bulgaria. Joel: Yep. Chad: I believe. Joel: Romania, sorry. Is Bulgaria in Romania? Chad: No. Joel: Okay. They're a Romanian company. Chad: They're Romanian company. Okay. Joel: You know, your Eastern block knowledge is much better than mine. Chad: So, 60% of DRUID's businesses is in the US. So really quick, just some quick advice to DRUID right out of the gate. That's a signal to stop growing internationally and focus heavily on where you get the most traction, which is the US. And then, those US companies will drive internet, international expansion when you go after more of the wallet share to be able to expand into those different locations under those same brands. Okay. So you're not a huge organization. Totally get that. How do you make the most out of the resources that you currently have? Focus on where you have the most traction and where the most opportunity is. Right now, that's the United States for you. So that would be my advice to you. 60%, that's the 100% of the time is perfect. SFX: 60% of the time, it works every time. Joel: Just like Chad's advice. Alright guys, we'll take a quick break. Please listen to the ads. Without the ads, there's no show. Listen to our sponsors. Listen to our sponsors. We'll be right back. Alright, Chad. We're barely into week two. If we're even into week two yet of the UWA or UAW battle against the big three. We're gonna start this summary with a soundbite, read an update and then we'll comment accordingly. This is I think GM CEO talking about... Chad: Yes. Joel: Salaries. Chad: Mary Barra. Joel: Yep. Here we go. Mary Barra: But if you are getting a 34% pay increase over four years and you're offering 20% to employees right now, do you think that's fair? Well, I think when you look at the overall, the overall structure and the fact that 92% is based on performance and you look at what we've been doing of sharing in the profitability when the company does well, I think we've got a very compelling offer on the table. And that's the focus I have. Shawn Fain: Wanna call 'em family when it's easy. They haven't been there, they haven't taken care of their workers. We went backwards in the last 16 years, backwards while the CEOs gave themselves 40% pay increases in the last four years alone. Profits have been through the roof. $250 billion in profit in the last decade, 21 billion in the first six months, the price of cars went up 30%. Our pay went up 6%. Inflation went up 19, we're going backwards and they wanna call us greedy. Chad: Yeah. That was Shawn Fain. Yeah, of the UAW. Joel: Union. Union leader, the big three killed my baby. That's right. The UAW strike drama is ramping up like you heard. Not even a week old, General Motors in Stellantis have laid off additional workers due to consequences stemming from the UAW strike. GM halted production in Kansas and Stellantis laid off more than 2000 employees at parts factories in Ohio and Indiana. The strike involves nearly 13,000 workers across multiple plants. Ford boss Jim Farley said the union's demands would bankrupt the company. [laughter] To that, the union responded by indicating that the CEO makes over $21 million per year. Did I mention that we're barely into week two in this drama, Chad? Chad: Yes. Joel: What are your thoughts? Chad: Yeah. This is royalty versus us, the peasants, right? So when the CEO of GM, Mary Barra says her comp is based on overall structure, that means she gets paid differently. But here's the breakdown of how she gets paid. She gets $2.1 million in salary, 14.6 million in stock awards, 4.9 million in option awards. Nearly 6.3 million in incentives, 1.1 million in other payments. Who knows what the fuck they are, right? That was her 2022. So Maria Barra made almost $29 million in 2022. That's over 650 times that of the average line worker for GM. Is one person worth 650 people that actually do the job? So let's dig into this a little bit more. The average line worker makes $41,523, not even $42,000. If you actually gave that line worker 34% raise, which is what Mary's taken over the last four years, they would earn an additional $14,118, which makes their salary 55,000 plus, not even $60,000. Chad: So in Detroit, this is from the MIT Living Wage Calculator, two adults with one child need nearly $67,000 a year for a living wage. One adult with one child needs over $80,000 in a living wage. This is, this shit drives me crazy 'cause Mary Barra is the highest paid of these three. But she's not the only asshole in the room. We talked about Ford's CEO Jim Farley total comp in 2022 was 21 million. Stellantis CEO Carlos Tavares total comp in 2022, nearly 25 million. We need to start talking about these CEOs, about ivory tower economics and then start looking at what it actually takes for a person, a worker, the ones who actually produce the cars on the line, what it takes for them to live every single day. And we don't do that. We need to break it down and do that more. SFX: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Joel: So this to me, this whole situation will be written in the history books as a fascinating study of so many layers of society. We have an EV revolution that says cars need to be electric. We have certain states saying, hey, by this year, no more gas vehicles can be bought in our state. We see countries over in Europe saying, no more gas automobiles. Now it's funny because the UK came out yesterday and said, we're going to extend the date on how much longer we can have gas cars. I suspect America's states will probably start doing the same. But in this revolution, let's be honest, the big three have not really hit it outta the ballpark with creating EVs. Most of 'em are ugly. Most of 'em aren't selling. I see very few. Everything I see on the road is Tesla, Rivian and I'll probably see more and more Fiskers as we evolve. Chad: Polestar. [laughter] Joel: So you have a government saying, we're going to encourage EV vehicle purchases. We're gonna give you $7,500 tax credit if you buy American made electric vehicles. Well, that puts Tesla right in the sweet spot of getting business by people who are looking to buy a new car. If everyone looks at Tesla as frankly a better looking car, better brand for electric, that's where they're gonna get gravitate toward, not the big three. An electric vehicle, as I understand it, takes less than 20 parts to make an electric vehicle. A typical vehicle today takes over well over a hundred, right? So the amount of workers it takes to make an EV is a lot less than what it takes to make a gas vehicle, as I understand it. And you can automate that a lot easier than you can making a F-150. Joel: Now you have politically, it's tough for Biden to be on the side of auto workers when he's the one giving the tax advantages to people buying EVs. On the Republican side, you wanna be progressive, but you don't wanna seem anti-business. Through all of this sit, all of this drama, the CEOs and the people that are making the big bucks, I think they realize the future of their business. And to me it feels a lot like a get the money while the getting is good. They understand like the future is not in favor of the workers. In fact, I would argue that they are more than happy about this strike because the strike gives them some cloud cover to start firing a bunch of people. They've already laid off 2000 people, and we're not even a week into this. If the unions keep ratcheting up the number of plants that they're striking, watch the number of heads that roll increase more and more. Joel: And I think ultimately the leadership knows that that's where the future is. If they can line their pockets, and by the way, decreasing headcount is gonna increase shock or share prices for these companies who frankly don't have a incredible valuation to begin with. Anyway, I'm rambling, but there's so many parts to this that when the history books are written and put the pieces together, it's gonna be incredibly fascinating. The sad part is yes, the workers for a decade, since 2008 when car companies got bailed out, got funding, federal funding but the workers have gotten royally screwed and I don't see that changing. I think this plays into the hands of the bigwigs, of the people in control and the politicians ultimately. Now, the one thing that's interesting is that the union could be the swing vote in 2024 for the presidential election. Chad: Yes. So Shawn Fain, the head of the UAW already told Trump he can keep his millionaire ass at home. So, which I think is amazing because he said you were the problem. People like you were the problem. We don't need you here. I think this is a great opportunity for all of the politicians to get behind the people because that's who they represent. They don't, I know that the GMs and the Mary Barras and the Jim Farleys and so on and so forth, they give a lot of money to campaigns. But at the end of the day, it's the votes that are gonna matter. This is where they're going to have to balance and be smart about it. And right now, most of them, you hear a little peep every now and again, but they're going to have to take a stand. Are you with the people who are doing the work and they're getting fucked and they have been for decades? Or are you with the ivory tower crowd who, like we heard last year, there has to be pain for the rest of everybody else except for us on our yacht for the economy to go the way that we want it to go. Chad: Yeah. I think there is gonna be... There are gonna be some politics that are definitely played here, but I love the UAW head. He's not taking any bullshit. He's calling it out exactly where it's at, and saying, "If you can take these types of increases in your salary and in your comp, then we deserve it too because we're the ones, we're the reason why you have that up and those profit margins." Joel: Yeah. To me, the chess he's playing, and he totally dissed Trump and he also put Biden to task, and they have not endorsed anyone for president. Whichever party, if they can do it, if they can resolve this and get the workers the raise that they ask for, that's the next president of the United States. Because the swing vote is the unions, and if... Whether it's Biden or Trump, Democrat, Republican, if they can broker this deal and get them paid what they want, they're gonna be in the White House again. That's the real chess he's making. The chess he's playing is he's gonna talk to Trump and Biden and whoever else and say, "If you get us this raise, I will deliver you the White House." That's the chess he's playing. Not the bullshit with the CEOs, he's looking at this at a much higher level, to me. Chad: Yeah. Well, the bullshit with the CEOs is all... It's the narrative. That is truth that Biden's been talking about with Bidenomics this entire time. The thing is does he have the balls to actually back up what Shawn Fain is saying because he legitimately is behind the people, so we'll see. Joel: Love it. Well, speaking of CEOs Chad, an article in Harvard Business Review or HBR as the kids call it, entitled "The Myth of the CEO as Ultimate Decision Maker" got our attention this week. It's author argued a common misperception about the CEO's role is that they are the ultimate decision maker, and that the prize of getting this coveted position is that you now get to make all the decisions. In reality, the CEO's role is much more about shaping rather than making decisions. This approach empowers teams and fosters agility ultimately driving organizational success. Business Insider highlighted the fact that the CEO of Polish drinks company, Dictador is an AI-powered humanoid robot named Mika. And they're not the first company to make a bot it's CEO. Last year, a Chinese gaming firm appointed an AI-powered virtual humanoid robot named Tang Yu as its [laughter] chief executive. Chad, [laughter] help us make sense of this issue. Chad: Tang Yu. So the AI boss named Mika told Reuters that it didn't have weekends and it was always on 24/7. Mika helps to spot potential clients and selects artists to design the rum producers bottle. So, here's the thing, we just talked about these individuals who are making a shit ton of cash. And to be quite frank, you could probably get rid of one of these CEOs. You can take Mary Barra out for about three months, six months or what have you. Would you even know she was gone? I doubt it. You take the 650 people her salary represents off the line, oh, you're gonna notice that shit, right? So why not just start infusing AI into the decision-making co-pilot of these companies? It's funny, we just had... We just talked about Eightfold has co-CEOs. Fuck that shit. Have a fractional CEO with a AI co-pilot along with it. Half the salary on that shit, and roll with it. It's just like this is where we should be starting. We should be starting at the CEO side, and you've got the QA/QC of a fractional person that's there, that's awesome but we don't need to be paying these crazy fucking comp packages to these assholes in the ivory tower. SFX: That escalated quickly. Joel: Yeah, I'm remembering an interview with Steve Jobs many years ago where they asked him sort of the CEO position and how stressful it is and hard. And he had a great answer like, "I have the easiest job in the company. In that, I just make sure everyone is on task doing what they're supposed to do." Now, he obviously helps create the vision of the company and he was a visionary, which let's be honest, most CEOs don't have the visionary thing. They're more managers and Harvard MBAs just sort of filling a seat and making the shareholders feel better. But Steve Jobs basically said, "Look, I touch base with my leadership, I touch base with the foot soldiers and make sure that things are going where they need to go, but once I set this ship on course, it goes. Once I get the plane up, it's auto-pilot to where it needs to go." I think we put way too much emphasis on CEOs not only for their decision making power, but they're, I guess, storytelling and the mythology. We spend way too much time on the idolatry of innovators, and these people must be smarter than us because they invented Facebook or Instagram, a picture app, they must be a genius. So I agree. Co-CEOs is stupid. You gotta go all in. What's this co-shit? [laughter] SFX: Just the tip. [laughter] Joel: I don't understand that at all. Look, it's like a married couple running a company. That's just gonna be just be a bad idea. So, I love this thing, these startups with AI CEOs. Look, how many founders do we know that aren't CEOs? They're not managers, they can't function, why not hand it to a bot? Why not hand it to AI? Like, "Okay, I made this company. Now what do I do? Okay. Let's hire people. Here's the structure." Why not give it to an AI? I'm all for it. And the money you save from it, shit, why not? Chad: Just imagine the amount of country club expense costs that you don't have to spend with an AI. Joel: We'll be right back. Oh yeah. Queue one of my favorite, favorite sound bites, Chad, you know the one. SFX: Ay Papi. Joel: Alright. OnlyFans is in the news again. A platform initially known for adult content has experienced staggering revenue growth. Some of the numbers are out, surging nearly 2000% in three years to reach 5.5 billion in 2022 alone. Shockingly, the US is its larger markets. Where have all the puritans in America gone, Chad? What is your take on the crazy growth of OnlyFans? Chad: I think you said it earlier, the puritans like Boebert. That's who they really are. And she probably, I don't know this for sure, but she probably has an OnlyFans channel out there somewhere. This, to me, again, this is pretty amazing. I'd like to see the distribution of gross revenue versus what their accounts actually make. So to be able to actually split that out and see like the top let's say, for instance, 10 accounts. Of that 55 billion or top 100 accounts, of that 55 billion, how much is being made in this creator economy? Because that's exactly what it is. So this is, again, providing a very safe environment for many people who were sex workers and maybe are, maybe this is a supplement, to be able to move away from the actual physical and do something that's a hell of a lot more safe. I would love to be able to see the breakdowns. We've heard from many through different articles and different publications that individuals are making $8000, $30,000 a month through these channels, these OnlyFans channels so I'm not surprised. And when you have a population like the United States, which is current puritan and religious, these are the ball gag moments that they just love. SFX: What are you doing step bro? [laughter] Joel: Okay. So, today the platform has 210 million registered users and more than 2.1 million content creators. Chad: That's a lot. Joel: Yeah. This massive user base continues driving impressive revenue growth for the company that's in the UK. I wonder where they sit as far as the... Chad, our intro featured Republican Congresswoman, Lauren Boebert and a story on OutKick declared she could make over $6 million a year conservatively on the platform. She currently makes $175,000 in Congress. Republicans love Elon so why isn't Elon taking on OnlyFans? And I say that you can start that initiative with getting Lauren Boebert on the platform on Twitter as they take on OnlyFans. [laughter] Joel: Now that, Chad, is a subscription model that we can all get behind. We out. Chad: We out. Outro: Wow, look at you. You made it through an entire episode of The Chad and Cheese podcast or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could have used a buy a nutritious meal on Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey or just watched big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now, go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

“Will AI kill recruiting as we know it?” On this episode, Chad Sowash goes straight for the jugular and doesn’t let up. Fortunately, Amy Butchko, VP of TA at Maximus, is light on her feet and takes everything the boys throw at her and counters like the true champ she is. This interview was part of ATAP’s recent online event and covers all things A.I. when it comes to hiring. From audits to legal minefields to messaging to budgeting and everything in between, this one’s got it all, including Q&A with the live audience of recruiting veterans. TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions provides full-scale inclusion initiatives for people with disabilities. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. [music] Joel: Oh, yeah. What's up everybody? It's your lunch lady's favorite podcast AKA... Chad: Yes. Joel: The Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheesman. Joined as always, the Barney to my Fred, Chad Sowash is here and we are super excited to bring in Amy Butchko, VP of Talent Acquisition at Maximus. Chad: Maximus. Joel: And I'd like you use your own imagination on what Maximus does. Chad: Maximus. Joel: If you don't know what they do, maybe Amy will tell us. Amy, welcome. Amy Butchko: Thank you for having me today, guys. Joel: Give us a Twitter bio on Amy Butchko. Amy Butchko: A twitter bio. So, well, you did really well. So, Amy Butchko. I am vice President of Talent acquisition at Maximus, and at Maximus we are moving people forward. We actually connect citizens to services around government entities around the world, and among other things. And I lead their IT talent acquisition practice. So that is my reason for being here today. Chad: So to humanize this AI session, okay? What do you do for fun? What do you do for fun, Amy? Amy Butchko: Well, as we were having our little pre-gaming sort of getting ready for this, I was thinking about the one thing that I didn't mention where I use a lot of AI, and that is in my fantasy football practice. Chad: Oh. Amy Butchko: So I think you're actually referencing the little red... Joel: Practice like she has a degree and she practices fantasy football. Amy Butchko: The red blob back there, which is where I take my red pottery bag to go and make pots on the weekends. But I do use AI and a lot of apps to help me with my Waiver Wire pickups and stuff. So we can talk about that. So those are two things that I do in my spare time. Chad: Great. Joel: So much swag. I think that would be cool. Like, just Maximus is different. Chad: Oh. Amy Butchko: It actually is pretty fabulous swag. I don't, I'm trying to see if I have any, I think I have. Chad: Is it like gladiator themed? Because I really feel like it should be gladiator themed. Joel: She she has a armor plate. She has a... Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: Whatever that hell... Amy Butchko: We'll save that for another podcast. [laughter] Chad: Okay. So let's go ahead and kick this off. Thanks for joining us kids. We're gonna talk about AI today and a variety of ways. We've got Amy on here because she has a deep understanding of a lot of things and mainly being a practitioner in this space. So let's go ahead and dig into it. So first and foremost, Amy, I'm gonna ask the question that everybody's been asking. We're just gonna hit it right out of the gate. Will AI kill recruiting jobs or is the jury still out? Joel: Oh my God. Buy him a drink first, Sowash, don't go right for the jugular man. Damn. Chad: Right for it. Amy Butchko: No. Chad: We only have 30 minutes, man. We gotta make this count. Joel: Ouch. Okay. Let's go. Amy Butchko: Okay. So, I will be relatively controversial here I think. I do not think it is going to kill recruiting jobs. I think that as long as we are still hiring people, yes, we will need people. I think you guys have some different perspectives though. So I can yield for perspectives. Joel: It won't kill recruiting, jobs, but will there be less recruiters? Amy Butchko: Maybe. It depends on if our jobs get more complex, because one of the things that we've talked about is the fact that being AI enabled makes us more capable in some ways. Right? It's like having a bionic partner. And when you do that, things can get more complex. Things in my world are already pretty complex [laughter] So far, we still need people to unravel the what do the people need to do? How do we find those people? How do we talk to those people once we find them? That's the kind of stuff that makes me doubt that we can dehumanize talent. Joel: Is Maximus adding or decreasing or stabilizing headcount in the recruiting sphere? Amy Butchko: In my space, we're pretty stable. Joel: Okay. Amy Butchko: And we haven't... I have been there for what? About a year? Joel: Are you increasing? Like is the ivory tower talking about increasing or decreasing headcount for recruiters in the next 12 months? Amy Butchko: The ivory tower doesn't typically dictate that in the world that I'm in. Typically the way, because... So Maximus is a government contractor in the United States. We do have a global presence, but the vast majority of the stuff that I do is based here in the US. And the way that I would describe my ever constant strategy for how I staff my team is it's always based on the business. So if we win a new contract, if we need additional resources to help support that we hire and otherwise we support the business that we have with the right number of recruiters and metrics play into that. I know we didn't really talk about this much in the lead up, but one of the things that really helps us is knowing from a data perspective and being able to aggregate the kind of data that we can get now out of recruiting systems about how many recs can a recruiter handle of a certain genre, and then really be able to know what your staffing levels are. So the ivory tower informed by whoever that is, informed by data. Joel: The great Oz. Yeah. Amy Butchko: Oh, well, let me know if that guy's around because he doesn't really work at Maximus as far as I know, nor any place where I've been. It's really about trying to figure out what your resources need to be to meet the demand of the day. Chad: Right. And let's dig a little bit more into that. 'cause that's fairly general with regard to whether you're gonna have more recruiters or less recruiters. To me, the discussions around being able to take some of the really menial tasks off the recruiter's plate by using technology. Number one, to make them more efficient, number one, now that AI, and again, we're talking about recruiting versus the full sphere of like the job market. AI in itself, if it is historically like every other technology, it's gonna create new and more jobs. So therefore you're going to need more recruiters to be able to fill those jobs within. So what you're looking at and just, again, this is just my vantage point is that you're gonna have more efficient recruiters, you're gonna have smarter recruiters who know how to actually utilize technology, and you're gonna need more efficient recruiters because you're going to have more jobs and different jobs to be able to fill. Do you feel like I'm in line there? Or am I too not dystopian enough like Joel? Amy Butchko: I think that some Joel Cheesman skepticism is warranted here. Chad: It's always good. It's always good. Amy Butchko: Yeah, I think you never wanna be the one that's wrong in the direction that you could be wrong, Chad. So I think that that one of the things that is missing from your hypothesis though, is that the complexity of the jobs that we are filling will also potentially increase. And when that happens, our ability to sort of unpack what a skillset would be to even fill one of those roles. Like what do I need if I'm hiring a data engineer? It's very different than if I was doing that from 10 years ago, and AI could help me know more about that as a recruiter in layman's terms and help me both speak to candidates and be more informed when I'm talking to a hiring leader who's probably very technical. So from that perspective, I think that that augmentation piece helps. Not ready to go full dystopia, but I wouldn't rule it out either, you know? Chad: Right. So, literally automation in AI, thus far, conversationally, whatever you'd like to call it has been great for high volume roles. So to be able to, again, to be able to scale right? To be able to scale the need which has given, in many cases, job seekers a much better experience. So instead of going into a black hole, they go into a bot for conversation for prospectively, scoring, scheduling and then getting into interviewing. Do you see, because high volume's much easier in many cases it's a heartbeat, and are you close to the job, right? In some cases do you see that scaling up to more to more complex positions? And how quick do you think we see that kind of scale in our space? Amy Butchko: We're not there yet, in my opinion. We are not there yet. I think that in the high volume spaces, yes. There are mechanisms and we have them here at Maximus. I don't run that team. There's an extremely talented group of people who does that here. But it is a different skill to do this at that type of scale. Joel: How are you guys, because upskilling to me seems like that is more important than maybe it's ever been when you talk about these new skills, these new technologies. How does your organization look at upskilling? What are you doing to sort of prepare for the future? What tips would you give other companies that are in the same situation? Amy Butchko: So, when I am evaluating a recruiter, or even myself, I'm looking at, are we using the tool set that we have today? So a lot of the stuff that you were just saying, Chad, about a great candidate experience with chatbots and being able to get instant answers and get outta the black hole. It's still not happening. We need to get Kevin Grossman on here to tell us about that, but go ask him. He would... It's not happening... Chad: It's not happening in general, but it is happening for some companies who are utilizing that. Amy Butchko: Who are utilizing the technology the way it is truly intended. And I think that Joel, to answer your question, I do think it's a skill issue. I think it is about training your recruiters. One of the things that happened when I got here was there were a lot of tools around and not particularly well utilized. There were some misconceptions that the tools work themselves, and they don't. There are some fantastic tools that can build a boolean strings, but if you give it junk, it's still gonna spit out a dumb string, right? And it's going to spit back bad results. Joel: Yeah. And there's a story we talked about, you mentioned upskilling and education, but also communication. Because we had a story a few weeks ago about a guy who applied to McDonald's, which uses a Chatbot or Conversational AI. The guy went through the process, talked to what he thought was a recruiter. It was a robot, but he thought it was a recruiter, which is good and bad in this case. Amy Butchko: Sure. Joel: But went through the process, scheduled it, showed up for the interview, walked to the front counter and said, I'm here for my interview. And they had no idea what he was talking about, and gave him a paper application to fill out when he showed up. There was no one in management that knew what the hell was going on. So talk about the importance of communication, of understanding like, Hey, everybody, we have this AI tool that is scheduling interviews, and when people come in, if they say, I'm ready for my interview, that's because we're using this service. That communication apparently is not happening. And what tips would you give for companies to start having those conversations and helping job seekers understand what's going on, as well as your employees who may not know what's going on? Amy Butchko: That experience, I think probably happens more often than we would ever imagine. I was actually just recalling when I went to Quest Diagnostics to go check in and go get my blood drawn, and I was supposed to be able to check in from my phone, and I was supposed to check in from the kiosk, but nobody told me that. So I sat in my car and then I came in and they were like, oh, yeah, that app doesn't work. And I was like, oh, cool. Can I still, okay, great. So it's that kind of stuff where the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing. And it's those human connections that still have to be made. And it's not that somebody from, I guess Oz or the ivory tower was supposed to come down and tell that McDonald's manager what to do. It was their systems and their people weren't connected. Joel: And who's responsible? Should the vendor be having onsite classes about what's going on? Is it the buyer that should be educated? Like who's responsible for filling the gaps in here, building the bridges? Amy Butchko: So who's responsible for making that hire? I think that ultimately it comes down to... Chad: Boom. Amy Butchko: To those people, it's us. We are the solution and we are the problem when it comes to that. Chad: And let me throw that out to you even more in a historical fashion. We had applicant tracking systems come on the scene fairly early, late 90s, early 2000s. They were very basic. They were, they were streamlined. And then we got involved, the humans got involved. And we started to make these processes more complex where it was a five-minute application versus a 30-minute application where they needed blood samples, social security number, everything. First born. So when we're talking about this, like the problem that Joel was just talking about, and then also the setup for the future. As a practitioner, what kind of guidance would you give to the other practitioners that are out there to be able to think more in simplicity versus complexity? Do you think that is incredibly key as we move forward or do you think that there's a necessity to be complex right out of the gate? Amy Butchko: So I think some of the best advice I've ever gotten as a professional is to simplify my communication. It's the advice I still give to everyone, including myself to make things easier. I actually, I take issue with the idea that the humans made the complexity. I run across far too many vendors who think that they've invented HR and they know how it should happen. [laughter] Amy Butchko: And I'm not, and no disparagement, I love tech. Love it. I love it. I love being able to layer technology on top of technology and figure out what the right workflows are. But ultimately, the idea that it starts with tech and then the people came in is absolutely backwards. So if you're designing for the human, so if you're thinking in your head, so in Joel's example, if we're actually thinking about that guy who just is looking for that job and working backwards from his experience, then you might have a system that works. Joel: Do we ignore the job seeker too much in tech? Amy Butchko: I think we ignore the job seeker. I think we ignore the recruiter. I've also found enough systems in my time that are geared toward communicating to whom they think what the executives want to know, which is also based on how people think recruiting is done versus how it is actually really done in the wild. So I think that's, yes. Chad: So when we start to talk about AI, it seems like there's all this noise. Is it AI, is it RPA, is it automation? And we're really focused heavily on the how, how is this being done versus the actual final outcome or the product. Should we be focused more on that outcome and then work our way back into the how or is the how really important just right out of the gate, because I don't think HR professionals have enough time to dig into what AI is, large language models are, versus RPA and automation, and they kinda lose sight over the final product. So what's your advice around that? Amy Butchko: Oh gosh. Well, that's a big one. And I think that it really goes back to trying to figure out what you are really solving for... If the idea is that you are... You think you need to solve hiring, you're gonna come out with a different outcome than if you are, how do we make a great experience for somebody who wants to go to work at a McDonald's in Indianapolis? It's just a different point of view. And I think being able to kind of shift your point of view could be helpful there. So to answer the question more specifically about the how and the what, when it comes to using chatGPT, I think on my team, I probably have maybe 50% adoption. [chuckle] Amy Butchko: And that's okay. It's kind of an infuriating tool if you ask it the wrong question or if you haven't figured out how to write the prompts to get the answers that you need. I have recruiters who are very sophisticated at it on the other hand, where they'll overlay a job profile in a de-identified resume to protect PII, because that's what we do here, and make sure that you are aligning skills to jobs, and then have the machine help you see the gaps more quickly. That is an example that one of my team members gave to me, which is fabulous, but how did she figure out how to write the prompts to make that happen? What questions is she asking? And that's where Joel skill becomes really super important. And it's still important when you're operating the robot. Chad: Yeah. But you said something there that I think is important and we're trying to solve hiring. And that's a big job. That's a big job trying to solve hiring versus what I think some of these technologies help us with are the tasks of hiring and being able to write better jobs descriptions, or at least give us a co-piloting opportunity to write better job descriptions sourcing, scheduling, interviewing, scoring. All these different things. Should we not just break it down into the tasks as opposed to hiring as a whole because it feels like an elephant and we're trying to eat the whole thing at once. Amy Butchko: 1000% right. That's exactly right. The complexity is both, it's the problem and it's the solution. Because RPA, robotic process automation is basically, it's zeros and ones, it's yeses and nos. If this do that, if not this, then do something else. That's your decision set. [laughter] So one of the other things that, when you talk about augmented capabilities on the part of recruiters, we did not talk about this in the prep, but this question reminds me of some Gartner research that I was looking at recently that was talking about how a recruiter can hold a certain number of racks on average to be, and that's pretty much like their, that's their ceiling. A recruiter can hold X racks. If you add a sourcer, assuming this is a person, add a sourcer, they're about 20% more effective if you add a coordinator, which to your point is about the scheduling and all of that stuff that goes behind the scenes, they can be about 50% more effective, which definitely speaks to the idea of how much time some of these "simple tasks" really take. They're not that simple, Chad. They're just not that simple. Chad: The nudging and the continued engagement, as we've seen some of the conversational AI platforms and some of the other platforms, one of the things that we've not done well as humans, because from a scale standpoint, we just can't do it. Is reaching out to every single applicant to be able to give them updates and/or remind them that, Hey, tomorrow you have an interview, or to remind them, Hey, tomorrow is your first day. Right? None of that's simple, it's just that from the human standpoint, we can't scale. Joel: Well, I think in lieu of this, I want to ask about Amy's filter and I don't want to go as far back as to say, like, let's just call, I'll go to rotary phones and ditch the technology. But I've been doing this for a long time, and every time I think, Okay, we've hit our max tech startup valuation ceiling, we bust through it and go towards another one. What do you look at with either buying a new technology, using a new technology? What questions do you ask to make sure it's useful? What are you asking your team, or what are you tracking in your team that would make you decide like, this isn't working, we're getting rid of it, this works, we need to do more of it. Do you have a process right now? Because I think a lot of companies are just inundated and overwhelmed with the amount of tools and you doing this as long as you have probably have some good tips on how to filter some of that stuff. Amy Butchko: Gosh. Filtering out all of that noise and complexity. And I need a robot to do that. I think that my spam filter is a great first cut to be a little bit more serious about it. I'm thinking about a couple of RFP processes that I've been involved in at different companies, and evaluating vendors alongside each other. And one thing for me that is a huge red flag is when I get the sense that the tech has been created around what would be cool or what an executive thinks that they need to hear, right? Yeah. Versus what is real. And for example, if you're thinking about talent mobility, which is a big topic in our industry right now because this is how do we work with the people who already are here who may have desires to do something different or where the business is shifting so fast. Amy Butchko: Some of what we are dealing with in industry right now is the fact that the jobs aren't necessarily disappearing, but they're moving over there and we've gotta figure out how to get the people over there. And if you start thinking about software to begin doing that, and then you start thinking you gotta like input all these really complex human qualities into it along with an ever increasing complex set of skills, it's dizzying. So when I think about how to do something like that with tech, I do try to kind of dumb it down and think, okay, if I've got this person and I've got this job, how would I make that transition as a human to help them? And then think about if the technology is mirroring that, because I don't think that we're gonna be able to do this in a way that's not intuitive to us as people. Chad: So we've gotta get to this because I think this is one of the most important questions for any practitioner that's out there. Amy Butchko: Yeah. Chad: If I do see a reason to buy this new tech. I don't get budget for it. I don't have budget for tools. I only have budget for what I have right now. How do I get new budget? I know that you've done this before and you have experience about getting budget, and most practitioners don't. They just sit there with their arms crossed and say, well, I just don't have any more budget. That's not the right answer. How do you go get more budget? Amy Butchko: Well, I think that the way I have done it is basically proving results with simple steps first. 'Cause some of this, I mean, you guys, this is not rocket science, right? I mean, we're bright, but this is not rocket science. So if you've got a problem that you can solve with a piece of tech that could potentially be done without a person, that's a great business case to make. Especially if you can start small with a license that doesn't cost that much. And then you prove your case, and then you can expand. Or if you've got other stuff laying around that somebody bought that maybe was there before you, that isn't working so well, maybe you can shrink that footprint a little bit and and really show value. So I think it could be both. Amy Butchko: It could be taking... Like there's some tool sets that, that are just outdated. And things in our industry do become outdated. We, we don't need to name names just go listen to your podcast you can hear all about them [chuckle] and find out which names are becoming outdated, but really think about what your existing stack is doing for you. And if you can start to cut first, great. Then you can repurpose. And once you've repurposed, you can incubate, prove your process and then expand. And that is essentially the logic that I follow. Joel: Yeah. Amy, I want to get you out on this. Governments are sort of freaking out about AI, particularly from the hiring employment side of the house. We've seen laws from New York, Illinois, California, companies are asking how do I make sure my AI is clean? I'm not gonna get in trouble by the Feds. What are some things that you wanna make sure questions you want to ask your AI or policies that you have to make sure that you keep yourself out of the cross hairs of the EEOC and other legal bodies? Amy Butchko: Easiest question of the day. I stay very tight with my privacy and my compliance and my IT departments. Know those people by name and have folks that you can call who are experts. I know at least five different experts that I can call within my company. And a few people outside that can inform me and I don't make those decisions. Joel: Delegate, delegate, delegate. Chad: So we've heard... Amy Butchko: Inform. Chad: Inform, yes. I think we've heard that companies have backed away from new technology and AI and saying, look, these things are just, these regulations are way too onerous. This new New York regulation says once a year you have to get your AI audited, which I think it's not often enough. But anyway, we've seen companies actually back away from using this new tech. Are they going to be able to compete for top talent or really just to be able to fill their roles if they don't use that new technology, the new tech in this new environment. Amy Butchko: We're gonna have to all adapt. That's my take. We're gonna have to adapt. I don't see us being able to go full on what I hear. We're not going back to the classifieds. We're not going back to old tradition. We're just, we're not. So finding how, and actually that's one of the things I love about where I am right now, is there's so many people that are smarter than I am about this, that I can be like, Hey, so explain to me how we can do this in the bounds and then we keep talking because every day it changes. Chad: Yeah. Well, and for me, that is the smartest thing that I have ever learned is that when I'm not an expert in an area, go find one because you're not gonna become one overnight. That's pretty awesome. Amy Butchko: Well, and if you were today on this topic, you're already outdated tomorrow. [laughter] So you got, I mean, it's the truth. It's the truth. Yeah. So we've gotta... So stay fresh. [chuckle] Joel: Outdated much like my wardrobe. Amy, we have one question real quickly and we'll close this out. Amy Butchko: Okay. Chad: Here we go. Here we go. Joel: Somebody wants to know, what is the title of the research from Gartner that you recruiter source or coordinator efficiency., there was a research that you... Amy Butchko: Well, I think it might have been that. I don't remember. It is in my Gartner thing, that is not on my other screen right now but you can reach out to me on LinkedIn. I think that Sue has my contacts and I will find it. Joel: And that answers my last question about how someone would connect with you. I am Chees. He is Chad. You can find out more about us @chadcheese.com. If you listen to podcasts, check it out because we dropped knowledge bombs just like we did today. Thanks to ATAP for having us. And as far as I know, this is the closing of our interview. Amy Butchko: All right. Happy TA day. Chad: We out. Joel: We out. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded it to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could've used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell. Enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuggle heads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back like an awful train wreck. You can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

The word audit scares most people. Hello, IRS? But sometimes audits can be your best friend for getting a good night’s sleep, especially when A.I. recruiting is involved. With laws being passed all the time that could put your company in jeopardy, you need some solid advice. That’s why we invited Guru Sethupathy, founder & CEO of FairNow AI to help us make sense this A.I. audit stuff. FairNow is a platform for simplifying and automating fairness compliance. They help businesses by auditing and monitoring AI algorithms in hiring. FairNow is on a mission to help companies build trust in their A.I. and if you’re looking at giving your vendors a deep dive to make sure they keep you out of the crosshairs of law enforcement, then this episode if a must. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for The Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Oh Yeah, it's your therapist's favorite podcast, AKA, The Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheeseman. Joined as always, the Kelcee to my Holmes. Chad Sowash is in the house, and we are excited to welcome Guru Sethupathy, founder, and CEO of fairnow.ai. Now, with a name like Guru, that's a lot of undue pressure. Is that tough to live with a name like Guru? Chad: Did you ask your parents, what are you doing to me? I mean, all this weight on my shoulders. Joel: He was born and they said he will run an AI company in 40 years. [laughter] Guru Sethupathy: The thing about Guru is like you could put that in any context. I'm out on a tennis court and they're like, what's your name? And you're like, Guru. Oh shit, you better... This guy must know how to play tennis. So it's kind of, in any context, you kind of have that pressure. So I gotta step up. Joel: I mean, I don't know your sexual preference, but I would think with the women, if your name is Guru, you better bring the knowhow, if you know what I'm saying. [laughter] Chad: We're gonna be packing the heat, anyway. Joel: Yeah, You better, you can't come with some weak shit if your name is Guru. [laughter] Chad: You better know how to date and whole nine yards baby, whole nine yards. Joel: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Chad: All right, Guru. So to get through this craziness, let's hear a little bit about you. Obviously, we just trampled all over you, but let's hear a little bit about Guru. Do you like long walks on the beach? [laughter] Chad: What makes Guru tick? That's what we want to know. Go ahead. Guru Sethupathy: Well, with a name like Guru, you had to guess, I started out in academia. So that's just... There you go. It had to happen. Chad: That's smart. [laughter] Chad: Didn't have a choice. Guru Sethupathy: Yeah, right. It was just meant to happen. So, now been... For the last 15, 20 years, guys, I started out in academia. I'm an economist by training. And, but that's where I cut my teeth at this space of both AI and human capital. That's kind of, those are the two things I've been interested in the last 15 years. And when I go for walks on the beach, I think about AI. No, I'm kidding. But seriously, so, those two things are what I've been thinking about. And so AI is really interesting. I don't know how long you guys have followed the topic. It's obviously, really sexy again. It used to be sexy in the late '90s, early 2000s, for those in the audience who remember... Who played Chess or Go, or... Chad: Oh, big blue. Guru Sethupathy: Different types of games. Yeah. There you go. Right? Deep Blue is what it was. Chad: Oh, yeah. Deep Blue and Kasparov, right? Guru Sethupathy: Yes. That was '97, 1997. And the headlines were like, AI is here beating... 'Cause Chess was considered the ultimate human game created. And so that was 25 years ago. And then AI went off the radar a little bit. There was other technologies. There was like e-commerce and internet and cloud. Chad: Cloud. Guru Sethupathy: Social media, and Facebooks of the world, and the Ubers and... Joel: QR codes. Guru Sethupathy: All this stuff. [laughter] Guru Sethupathy: Exactly. And so where was AI? It was under development all these years, but it was a very different methodology. And what changed was the volume of data out there. And so all of a sudden, the way that Deep Blue functioned is very different from the way ChatGPT functions. So... Chad: Well, and how we process it though, right? I mean, processors, we had all that data before... Guru Sethupathy: Exactly. Chad: And we just couldn't... We couldn't process it down. We were doing it with CPUs now we're doing with GPUs. I mean, things have changed. Guru Sethupathy: Those two things changed. The processing, exactly, the compute power and the volume of data. We had data back then, but the volume today, exponentially different. And so those things change and so AI is now back in the forefront, and it is like really, really having an incredible impact. And the other big thing that's really was a big deal with ChatGPT, it's impressive in some really cool ways. But for the first time, regular people, your aunt and uncle, your buddy down the street who doesn't know anything about tech, for the first time, they could interact with an AI system. Because again, AI has been developing the last few decades, but the average person didn't know. Now, they can interact with it, and that's just changed the whole conversation. And we'll see how that affects regulations, and we'll talk about it in a second, but I think that's just raised the awareness of people of, oh my gosh, this is a thing. It's happening. What's the implication? What's the implication for my job, for me? Well, how's it gonna change my work? How's it gonna change my career? What should I go study? Guru Sethupathy: Like, all of these things are super fascinating conversations. That's one thing that I think is happening. The other thing is just I've always just been fascinated by human capital, human potential. Why do some people succeed, other people less so? What determines people's careers? How do they go in and out of career? Skills, how are skills changing? All of this stuff. One of the things I've been thinking about a lot is the half life of skills. Like, if you look back at our parents and grandparents generation, they would kind of pick a thing, and they would just kind of do that for 10 years, 15 years, 20 years. Maybe they would have one other career, maybe two careers over their lifetimes. Now, people have four, five, six, seven different careers. And a lot of it is kind of warranted because things are changing so fast. Okay, you gotta go do something. And so how is that gonna evolve and what does that mean for people? I think the intersection of these two topics, AI and humans, is just kind of what I'm passionate about. Chad: So the impetus of fairnow.ai, talk about that. You obviously saw that there... This was happening, scale was happening faster, it was processing faster. It was moving faster. I even think that they're talking about Moore's law running much faster today than it was just even 6 to 10 months ago, for goodness sakes. So talk a little bit about that and being able to give us a little background of why you started fairnow.ai. Guru Sethupathy: I think it was a couple of trends that we saw that were happening. One is I've been bullish on AI for over a decade. And so I continue to think the technology, the sophistication, the capabilities are going to continue to improve. And the ramifications of that are pretty tremendous. It's going to be playing a bigger and bigger role in making important decisions. And we make decisions all the time in our jobs. Whether it's people decisions, whether it's business decisions, whether it's all sorts of decisions, right? Chad: Yes. Guru Sethupathy: So that's one thing. And at the same time, we don't know how these systems work, that's the fundamental thing. Even if you go and talk to an engineer and you're like, "Hey, why did it do that?" I don't know if you've read on ChatGPT and GPT-4, but it does some weird stuff sometimes. There was one example where a person was talking to it in English and it started responding in French. And he's like, what? Like where like... And there's so many cases like that. It's really, for instance, it's really bad at math and logic, which for us, it doesn't make sense because we tend to think like simple math and logic, like third grade level math and logic... Chad: Yeah. Guru Sethupathy: It's easier than high school level creative writing, for instance, right? Chad: Right. Guru Sethupathy: But it's better at that high school level creative writing than it is at third grade level math and logic. And so in our brains, that doesn't compute. Why... Chad: Does it... Guru Sethupathy: Why is that? And so there's a bunch of stuff like that where we don't understand how it works or why it works or why it does what it does. That's a big deal. You have to put guardrails around this stuff. You still need humans in the loop. You have to put guardrails. You have to worry about things like explainability and fairness and transparency and all these things, these things really matter. And so I felt both of these things were going to happen. Both AI was going to be more and more important, at the same time for this to really take off, you need to build trust in these systems, because it's very easy to get scared or weirded out and then boom, the whole system can be... You could just lose trust in the system and then, who knows what happens at that point? So to me, really, those two things go together. The advancement of technology has to come along with trust. And that was the impetus for fairnow. Chad: Well, Around the how, we'll get to that here in a second, but there are so many different types or classifications, let's talk about, around AI and it just makes everything so muddy. So you've got... Guru Sethupathy: Confusing. Chad: Artificial narrow intelligence, artificial general, artificial super. And then they even categorize... Like they break those out from there. So how much of your job is actually trying to educate and help organizations and literally, just human beings understand what the hell is going on out there? Guru Sethupathy: That is a very insightful point. I would say in these early days, more than half of our job is that, Chad. Like we have a technology platform, but more than half of my job is just educating, especially... We're primarily working in the HR space, talking to executives in HR and just educating them on a couple of different things. First of all, what is AI? Like literally what is it? How do you define it? When people say AI, what do they mean? And how would you think about kind of categorizing it? And so we even talk about two big buckets of AI. One is predictive analytics, like any kind of model that can predict, Hey, should that person get hired? Hey, should that person get promoted? Those are just simple predictive analytic models. Guru Sethupathy: And then the other one, which everyone seems to know about now is GenAI, which is generative AI. Which is these systems that can talk to you and have a conversation, etcetera. Those are the two big buckets. And then within those, there's subcategories that you can kind of cut into. But it's just good to know because for a lot of people, they just think AI, gen AI, they forget about the predictive models and those are really important too. So that's kind of one big bucket of things that people should think about. Guru Sethupathy: Then within that, another thing we educate on is, okay, what's going on in terms of laws and regulations? And that's a whole another thing. People are like, what is even going on here? I've heard about the New York City law. What does that law say? And then what about other laws? And so in the US we have a patchwork of different states coming together with their own laws, but then in places like Canada and the EU, it's much more top-down, it's much more kind of nationally, federally led laws as well. So that's bucket two. And then we talk about governance more broadly. Okay. Chad: Yeah. Guru Sethupathy: How do you do it responsibly? How do you do this well from day one? So you just don't have a bunch of data scientists going around building cool models, and then you don't know how this is all going to explode a year from now. It's almost like a science lab where you put the science kids in the science lab, we're going to run these experiments, but like, hey, let's put some controls around this. We don't want to blow up the science lab. And so what does good governance look like? So those are the three topics that we're educating folks on. Chad: So I think we get wrapped up in classifications and the how, as you talked about, but should we be more focused specifically on the what? And what I mean is the outcomes and the impact on humans. What does it do to the actual human? For these individuals who are qualified and they're getting negatively impacted, because that's the signal. That's really the end signal that we should care about the most. It's like the, how. I think we get really... We dig deep into it. It's like, well, how does this predict and well, it's like, but at the end of the day, it's who's being impacted and how are they being impacted? So talk a little bit about that because I do believe in the how. Don't get me wrong, I am a geek, I love this stuff. But I really believe the what happened and who is impacted is really the thing that most companies should be really feeling... Really focusing on mostly. What do you think? Guru Sethupathy: I think that's a great point. In fact, one of the things, both in our product and our platform and how we educate folks, we talk about risk levels. And the risk levels are exactly related to your point around who is being impacted and how are they being impacted? So for instance, let me give you two examples. If someone is being impacted because they don't get a job or they don't get an interview, that is a very different risk level than I'm just chatting with a gen AI system and it's kind of bullshitting. Those are two different levels of impact and therefore two different levels of risk and that requires different levels of governance. Guru Sethupathy: So our entire governance framework, Chad, is built on risk level, which is a direct function of the point you just made of like who is being impacted and how are they being impacted? So that is absolutely, absolutely, how we derive our governance logic. The other point I want to make though, and I think this gets lost sometimes is because there is a lot of attention around these AI systems and oh my God, what are they doing? Are they biased? All this stuff. Humans are biased too. And so one of the things I don't want people... Chad: That's how the AI got biased in the first place. Guru Sethupathy: Right? Exactly. Chad: It didn't just... AI didn't just say, hey, we're going to be biased. Let's go ahead and bias this. Humans, the human behavior and data is what made this whole system. And here's, I think the big thing, Guru, and tell me what you think about this. First off, the bias we, there's already been biased inherent in the system 'cause it's humans. So we take that bias we put it into AI and the big difference around AI is AI scales better than humans do which means we can negatively or positively, okay. Guru Sethupathy: Exactly. Chad: Impact. Guru Sethupathy: Impact alot more people in a millisecond. Chad: Yes. Yes. Guru Sethupathy: That's right, that's right. And that's the concern, that's the concern. But where we come from is this technology though, if done well, can scale things positively as well. And that's where we differ from some people who are like, hey, let's stop doing AI or let's kind of put a pause on... We think this can actually have really positive implications if you're building good governance and responsible governance while you're doing it. There's a really cool study that just came out that showed as a randomized controller trial, so the best kind of study that you can do. And they broke up men and women and put them in different buckets. And for one audience they said, you're going to be assessed and interviewed by humans. And for the other one it said you're going to be assessed and interviewed by AI. More women self-selected to go into the latter bucket. Chad: Oh yeah, because they already saw the bias that was already inherent in the system. Guru Sethupathy: You know that they know, for instance, the biases they did. Any woman that you talk to knows how interviews work and how that stuff works. And they know that biases that are already inherent to that, they believe the AI is going to be less biased. Chad: Wow. Guru Sethupathy: Right. If you're a company and you're not getting enough female candidates, you actually can do, get more, source more female candidates by having an AI system. Now, then you need to have, make sure that AI system is actually less biased. Joel: Unlike Amazon's. Guru Sethupathy: Yes, exactly, exactly, exactly. But there are ways of doing that and there are ways of doing it. So that's not impossible. There's ways of doing that and then there's a lot of research around this and but I do think that's the future. Again, if you do this stuff responsibly, it's almost like if you have a powerful car, if you have a Ferrari, you can go crash that thing in 30 seconds or you can use that. If you use it responsibly, you can get to your next place faster, in a cooler way, all that kind of stuff. So it's all about how you use a really powerful technology and that's what AI is, it's a powerful tool. Chad: That's how Guru picked up chicks, Joel. We just found out. Joel: Am going to say, you can use the name Guru with great responsibility, or you can abuse it. It's really up to you. How are you going to use that kind of Ferrari. Guru Sethupathy: Touché, touché. Oh man, that was good. Joel: Clearly our AI overlords don't want me to be on this interview. But I'm curious about the current system of auditing or what you think it's going to look like. A company looking to get an audit, where the hell do they start and where do they go? Guru Sethupathy: Yeah. Where they can start, where they can go, they can come to us, that's what we do. And So what one of our... Joel: And why do they trust? Why should they trust you or anyone else? Chad: Why should they... Yeah. Why should they trust anybody? Joel: Does the government give you a stamp? Do you have a little badge from the Boy Scouts. Chad: His name is Guru, come on. Joel: What is it that you have? Guru Sethupathy: I'm Guru with a Ferrari, right? So that's how it spreads. A couple of things. So one of the key things around these laws is they are asking for an independent audit, almost every single one of them. It started with New York City. And let me say one thing before I go further. New York City law, Chad, you and I talked about this very briefly. I don't love the law. There's a bunch of things that if you want, we can get into it. There's a bunch of things I disagree with about, I would have written the law differently. But the thing it did, which I am happy about, is it raised awareness and all companies now are thinking, oh shoot. Okay, we got to slow down here. There's going to be other laws coming in. It's not just New York City, it's going to be other laws coming down the pipe. And so we just got to slow down. We got to... So it just, at least raised awareness of people are thinking about this in a more thoughtful way. So I do wanna give them credit for that. Guru Sethupathy: Okay now coming to... Joel: They're scared shitless is what's happening. But yeah, okay, they're aware of it. Guru Sethupathy: Exactly. They are scared shitless. And then the second point now to your question, Joel is okay, what is an audit? And so almost all of these laws are asking for an independent audit. So what does that mean? That means like, if you're a vendor, you can't just go around and say, Oh yeah, I just audited myself and like everything looks fine, you have to go to a third party. Now, we're in the early days of this. So there is no, like, hey, this is like a verified vendor who does the audit, and like... It's not like fairnow has been Verified in that way or this other company has been verified in that way. So that doesn't exist yet. But here are a couple of things I will say, if we do audits and they don't work out well, that's going to negatively affect us. So there's an incentive and like a thing for us to be very, very, very careful how we do this. Guru Sethupathy: The other thing I'll say is I've been doing this for decades, so I kind of know what an audit looks like in the topic of fairness and algorithms. The other thing that's happening now, this idea of market standards. And this is where I want to talk about carrot versus stick. So the laws and regulations are the stick. Hey, if you don't get audited by an independent third party, you got to pay a fine, blah, blah, blah. Standards are these market standards that are coming out, like ISO 42001. But ISO I'm sure your audience knows is a very, kind of, common, well known international standard around certification of a variety of things. It could be a lot of things and they're doing it now in the... And a lot of them is technology oriented and now they're doing it in the AI space. And 42001 is specifically about certifying that your AI systems are responsible and they have a bunch of stuff. Guru Sethupathy: And in fact the NIST frameworks, the National Institute of Standard Technology, those frameworks are embedded in this standard. And there's going to be other standards. I'm sure SOC is going to come out with some standards. You guys have probably heard of SOC. The EU AI Act is going to have its own standards. So it's going to be a bunch of standards, right. And these standards, Joel, to your question, those are well known, those are well known kind of almost approved upon, agreed upon standards of saying, okay, gosh, if Joel's company has ISO 42001 certified AI, I know they're responsible. And So what we're doing in our product is saying, hey, we'll audit you, but at the same time, we'll embed these standards in there. And so if you pass these standards, boom, you don't have to trust us, trust ISO 42001. So that's kind of how we're working on this as well. Joel: So we're in the early stages of this, I assume I could be Joey Bag o' Donuts, throw up a website and say I'll audit your AI and approve you, whereas, they're probably... It feels like the background check business to me. You got your mom and pop doing stuff, you got like your multi-global, like huge corporations doing it. Talk about the competitive landscape, how does this thing shake out? Or is there a Coke and a Pepsi? And then everyone else is like, good luck with that. Like how does this thing shake out? Guru Sethupathy: I think you're right on a few fronts. The barriers to entry just for doing an audit, not that high. You got to know a little bit about how to do it. You got to understand the the laws. You have to understand EEOC laws, the existing laws, something Keith Sonderling talks about often. And I think you... I remember actually listen to your podcast with Keith. There's already laws on the books. The EEOC has employment discrimination laws around just human bias and discrimination and stuff like that. Guru Sethupathy: And so those laws still apply. It's not like those laws have gone away. So you do want someone who has expertise in this space at the intersection of employment law, discrimination law, bias, and how do you conduct an audit? For example, the four-fifths rule. Not everyone knows about the four-fifths rule. So there's some subject matter expertise here. So I don't want to say it's completely simple, but there's some subject matter expertise. So, there are gonna be folks who have that subject matter expertise that are gonna come into this space. So that's part one. Part two though, is, beyond just the bias audit, there's a whole level of governance, Joel, that I believe is important. So let me give you an example. Joel: Yep. Guru Sethupathy: We've been chatting with customers. HR executives, dozens and dozens. One of the first things I ask them is, hey, how many models do you have in your HR organization. Not one of them has got the right answer. Meaning, they don't even know how many models they have in their own organization. And I happen to know it 'cause I'd be talking to their folks in their organization and I'd ask them, hey, how many models here? How many models here? And they didn't know. And so the first level of governance, forget bias audits, just forget that. The first thing you have to do is just know what you have. You gotta know. You gotta inventory, you gotta know what you have. You gotta know what these models are doing, why they're doing it, who has access to these models, what data they're using. That's just basic governance 101. Then, as you get into more high risk models, then you do things like, okay, now we have to develop validation reports. Guru Sethupathy: We have to do bias audits, we have to do explainability reports. Then we have to do compliance with different laws. So we actually have a framework for different levels of governance, depending on the risk level of the model. And so, this to me... So yeah, you can do a quick bias audit. To me, a bias audit is like a bandaid. So if you go see someone and they're like, oh yeah, you have a scratch, let me put a bandaid on there. Sure, there's gonna be dozens of those. Joel: Doesn't make you a doctor. Guru Sethupathy: It doesn't make you a doctor. And I think that's what we bring to the table. And the reason we are able to do that is, me and some of my colleagues we're ex Capital One folks. The whole financial services lending space, if I can just digress for a second, there has been laws on the books there around, against discrimination and lending for decades now. And so any bank or any institution has had to be very, very well governed around the models that they use in lending and banking and so on. And when I was at Capital One, I learned about that and I said, wait a second, that's gonna come everywhere. That's not gonna be just in banking, that's gonna come to HR, that's gonna come to health, that's gonna come to insurance that's gonna come... It's gonna come to all these spaces and these spaces don't know how to do this governance. Joel: Yeah. Guru Sethupathy: And so to me that's kind of what's the different, that's gonna be the differentiator between just an auditor versus someone who's gonna, like you said, a doctor in this space. Joel: Yeah. We have a lot of vendors listen to our show. A lot of people that are building products, cool things that aren't necessarily thinking about bias or how it could impact or break the law. Should vendors reach out to you just as employers do and say like, hey, we've already been vetted by fairnow, we've already been vetted by A, B and C top, whatever. Are they doing that and should they do that and what would it cost? Guru Sethupathy: Yeah. We're already working with vendors. So we're actually working with both kind of enterprise customers who are using these things, as well as vendors who are building these things. And if you look at the laws, New York City is focused on the end customer but other laws like New Jersey, there's a law that's coming down the pipe that's focused on vendors. But if you look at most of the other laws, California, Massachusetts, the EU AI Act, like Canada, all of them are focused on both sides of the market. Both the end user and the company that builds the technology. So vendors should absolutely be concerned about this. And yes, absolutely. And we're already working with them on this. So yeah, they can come talk to us, we're already working with vendors. And I think one of the things there that's gonna be coming down the pipe, and we're already seeing this, is their customers are asking them these questions, Joel. Joel: Yeah. Guru Sethupathy: Their customers are starting to come and ask them, hey, wait a second. I didn't ask you last time when I signed the... Signed a contract. But now I wanna know what data are you using? What's your training data? Is there a bias? Have you had a third party look at it? They're starting to ask those questions and so that's where we can help. Joel: Here's the thing though, Guru, is that I can have, I'm a vendor and I go through all of the hoops, right? Guru Sethupathy: Yeah. Joel: But the problem is, as soon as I put that in front of a bias set of data, and then a company takes over and they try to make it more customized/bespoke, depending on what side of the pond you're on, then that fucks the entire system up. So you can be as, much like we've said for years, applicant tracking systems worked perfectly until companies came in and they started customizing the hell out of... Oh no, we wanna do it this way, that way, and the other thing. And now everything is bottlenecked, it's not happening efficiently like it should. Now, in this case, a vendor can go through all of those hoops, but a company starts to push all this infected, let's say, data into the large language model, that's not the vendor's fault. Who is responsible there? Because California wants the vendor to be responsible in some cases. Guru Sethupathy: And this is where... We're in the top of the first inning check, right? Joel: Yeah. Guru Sethupathy: There's gonna be so much that we have to sort through and figure out both from like a business perspective and from a regulatory perspective. So on this point around training data, so models, so when I say a model, I'm actually referring to two things, an algorithm and the training data that that algorithm was trained on. So sometimes the same algorithm could be five different models because every time there's a different training data, that to me, that's five different models. And four of those could be good, and the fifth one could be really biased data to your point, right? Joel: Mm-hmm. Guru Sethupathy: So that's point number one. Point number two is, we actually have come up with a pretty cool technique where we've developed a synthetic dataset, a proprietary synthetic dataset that then runs A/B tests on your model, it doesn't even use that dataset. I'm gonna say, Hey, forget about that dataset. Let's use this dataset and run a simulation on your model and test your model for that. And the laws actually allow for that. So the New York City law, there's actually a section there that says, hey, if you can't train on a historical training dataset for a variety of reasons, you can use an alternate test dataset. And so we've created that test dataset, so that way a vendor can say, hey, look, I don't know what training data you have, customer A, but based on this kind of canonical test data, our model is fine. And that's a valid thing, at least from the point of view of the New York City law, etcetera. The other thing that vendors should be aware of is how are their customers using their technology? It used to be the case that you're like, I don't care how you use it. Like, good luck to you, user error is on you, kind of thing, right? Joel: Yeah. You're on the hook. Guru Sethupathy: You're on the hook. And they still are on the hook, but where it starts to affect a vendor is now reputation. So now if, for instance, five different customers of theirs have been sued or audited. And they're all using this technology, their vendor technology. Again, they're probably not on the hook, Chad, but it starts to look bad. So I don't know if you saw this Workday lawsuit, no I don't know. Joel: Yeah, yes. Guru Sethupathy: Kind of as there's some debate there around whether that was a real legit lawsuit or if that was kind of contrived, but you know we can debate that. But the point being, it still looks bad on Workday, right? Joel: Yeah. Guru Sethupathy: And so Workday now has an incentive to make sure their customers are using their technology in the right way. And that's another way, again, where we can help, where we can say, hey, if we're auditing a vendor, we can also say, who are your customers? Let's go audit them. And so now you can make... And we can give them a score and so the vendor can know, hey, how are each of their customers doing. And, if they see one of their customers is scoring a D, for instance. All right, they're probably not using it correctly, let's go talk to them. So that's where, those are the kinds of things we wanna solve. Joel: Gotcha. I wanna switch real quick to the top-down versus bottom-up, states versus federal. Guru Sethupathy: Yeah. Yeah. Joel: And so what we did see, going back to your example, we did see financial institutions, the government relaxed on lending laws, and we broke the entire globe. The United States screwed the entire world because everything was relaxed from the feds going down. We don't have really anything in place, federally, the EU is putting things in place. So how much risk do we have in breaking the entire damn world again, if we don't put guardrails in place federally? I know the states are pushing, and I appreciate that, but does it really matter unless we do a federal mandate from the top-down. Guru Sethupathy: Yeah. Really interesting. A really interesting analogy that you're comparing it to kind of the financial system, and what happened in the late 2000s. A couple of things. One is just... I just wanna put this out there. We're just much more of a kind of state's right, type of place in America. And this isn't to get into politics or anything like that, but that's just how we were founded. I'm just going back to our founding and how we got started. We were a bunch of states, and this is part of our... Chad: That was over 200 hundred years ago. Joel: This is America, Chad. Chad: That was over 200 years ago. Back in the horse and buggy days, we... Continue, continue. Guru Sethupathy: No, no, But my point is, that's not the... Joel: He said, no politics, Chad, I know where you're going with all this. Chad: No, that was just a historical reference. Had nothing to do with politics, Joel. Joel: I know what you meant. Guru, go on, save us. Guru Sethupathy: It's just in our DNA. Our DNA is just very different from that standpoint, from Europe and other places. And so, I do think we are going to have, states coming out with their own laws. And they're gonna say we wanna regulate. Now, in some sense, that's good. The thing I like about that kind of stuff is experimentation. Hey, let California try what they wanna try. Let New York try, let Illinois try. And let's see what's working well. The whole idea of states is a laboratory for trying to see what's working and what's not. So that part is good. The part that sucks kind of is like, if you're a national company, your head is gonna explode with 20 different laws across so many different states. And you're like, oh my God, your head is literally gonna explode. Chad: Well, this just makes business good for you, Guru, because now it is so goddamn complete. Nobody can keep up with it, dude. If there was a blanket law, it'd make it a little bit easier... Joel: He's gonna bet on that garage for a few more Ferraris. [laughter] Chad: Maserati, just continue. Joel: Yeah. Yeah. Chad: Aston Martin. Guru Sethupathy: So, that is, I think, going to be the plus and the minus of how the US is gonna flip. Now, the thing that is interesting here, and you're already starting to see some federal guidelines. Now, they're not specific laws, but the NIST which is again, an organization that we are members of, and we are working with and partnering with National Institute of Standards of Technology, they've come out with a NIST AI Risk Management Framework. And that framework is going to... Is supposed to be something that states can borrow from, that companies can borrow from, and that they can start using it in building into standards and into governance practices. Guru Sethupathy: So again, I don't think it's going to be an all or nothing. Hey, is it only states doing stuff or is it only federal doing stuff? I do think in this case, Chad, you're gonna see both. You've already seen the White House put out a blueprint. The Congress is already talking about guidelines and guardrails. And so I do think you're gonna see kind of, high level guardrails at the federal level. And I do think you're gonna have specific laws at the state level. I do think that's gonna... How it's gonna proceed in the US. Joel: So let me throw in another curve ball at you. The globe, every country and municipality, and they're gonna have their own laws as well. That company with that satellite office in Belgium is thinking, what the hell? How are we gonna cover our ass on this one? What advice would you give them? And does your company cover a global footprint? Is there an association in the offering that will sort of keep track of all this stuff? Is lobbying in the future? Guru Sethupathy: One of the things we're seeing kind of in the early days is companies just turning off some of their AI systems. Joel: Yes. Guru Sethupathy: One thing I've seen as it gets complicated, they're like, you know what? Screw it. I'm just gonna turn off my hiring and my AI in New York City or in California, or whatever. Now look, that's not a sustainable answer, that's not how you build a business, that's not how you continue to do things over time. But that's kind of been a quick reaction from some companies. And so that's kind of part one of my answer to you. Part two is, yes, we help. In fact, that's kind of a big part of our value prop is like, there's gonna be 50 different laws, you are gonna have 50 different models, that's 2,500 different combinations, we're gonna keep track of that for you. So that is kind of, part of our value prop. Joel, because otherwise, like I said before, your head is just gonna explode. And 100% there's gonna be lobbying. When is there not lobbying when it comes to any law. So there's gonna be huge amount of lobbying. In fact, you're already... And I think a lot of lobbying is actually gonna from the big players. Joel: Yeah. Guru Sethupathy: I think it's the Googles and the Microsofts of the world that are heavily involved in shaping some of these things. In fact, if you look at Chuck Schumer, I think is convening a meeting on responsible AI. And if you look at the names on that list of people that are in the room, it is a who's who and the people that we've all heard of, these names. They're the CEOs of Microsoft and Google and all these really big technology companies. So there's absolutely gonna be lobbying, there's absolutely gonna be reshaping of this. And in fact, that's part of where it comes back to this carrot and the stick idea. There's gonna be laws on the books, but at the same time, there's gonna be some amount of like, not self-regulation, but market regulation. And so the analogy I'm gonna give you is SOC 2 compliance. And I think, Joel, you were shaking your head, you didn't know that one before, but Chad, I think you might. But SOC 2 is a thing. Joel: Thanks for throwing me under the bus Guru. I appreciate that. [laughter] Guru Sethupathy: I just was making sure. If you were like, no, no, I know this stuff, I would've just skipped on. I would've just skipped on. Chad: Guru, everybody knows Joel is just the pretty face on this podcast. Okay, so it's okay. [laughter] Guru Sethupathy: Well in 5 seconds, Joel, you're gonna know as much as I want. Joel: I was just doing sit ups, is why my head is nodding. Doing some crunches. [laughter] Guru Sethupathy: But the SOC 2 compliance is basically a way, a standard for making sure that you are handling your customer's data. Your customer's data, their documents, their... All of your information is called InfoSec compliance. That is not a regulation. SOC 2 is not a regulation, but it is now so prevalent because any time you are a vendor, you wanna sell a product to someone, SaaS product, they will, in their recruit procurement process, they will ask you, are you SOC 2, it just kind of covers your ass. And so my expectation is that will become a thing, that will become a... There'll be standards out there that you'll have to follow. Again, it could be ISO 42001, maybe it's a SOC 10 compliance something. There's gonna be something. And that is something that all companies will just have to follow. And that's gonna simplify things. That'll simplify the things from like, oh my God, 30 laws in 30 states to, hey, if I follow the standard, that should cover me 90% of what I need to do. And so, I think that's also something you're gonna see in the future. And that's also something we help with. Chad: Get ready kids, they're gonna be on RFPs all over the place when that happens. Guru, I want your commitment, my friend. This is just the start of this conversation. We need to have you back to continue this discussion because it is constantly changing from state to state, country to country the GPU to Google, Gemini. Jesus, it's all over the place. Guru Sethupathy: And both sides are just... Both parts of the equation are changing so rapidly. Chad: Yes. Guru Sethupathy: What I mean by both parts of the equation is the technology is evolving at such a fast pace. And so if you ever even wanna come back, have me come back and just talk about the technology and what it's doing, and what is it capable of, and what it's not capable of, I go into that too. What are some of the things that sucks at? We can even nerd out on that a little bit. So, but that side of things, the technology and how fast it's changing and where it's headed, that's one piece. And then the laws and the standards and that stuff is also changing very quickly. Chad: Because they go hand in hand kids. They go hand in hand. Guru, if somebody wants to find out more about fairnow.ai and/or they want to connect with Guru 'cause who the hell doesn't want to connect with a Guru for goodness sakes, where would you send them? Guru Sethupathy: Thank you. Yeah. So our website is the first and best place, www.fairnow.ai. And you can learn a lot more about our company and what we do there. You can reach out to us there on the website directly or email me. Happy to chat. Like you said, the very first question you asked Chad, I think was we're educating people on this stuff too, right? It's not just our technology. We're educating people, helping them think through the complexities here and how they can get started down this journey. So you can email me at guru@fairnow.ai. Joel: Love Guru, AI Guru or just plain Guru. Chad, another one is in the can, we out. Chad: We out. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of The Chad and Cheese Podcast, or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey. Or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now, go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

Effective LinkedIn outreach can be the difference between a recruiter on Skid Row and one on Easy St. One start-up that promises to put headhunters on the fast track to champagne ‘n' cocaine is HyperJob, a solution that says it'll replace your plain-text job descriptions with interactive job microsites. The solution, founded by Janis Kreilis, CEO and co-founder, uses A.I. to evaluate LinkedIn profiles and craft individual messages with artificial intelligence from there. Hmmm, another start-up relying on LinkedIn for its success. What could possibly go wrong? Gotta listen to see if HyperJob survived the Firing Squad or not. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. Intro: Like Shark Tank? Then you'll love Firing Squad. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to put the recruiting industry's bravest, ballsiest and baddest startups through the gauntlet to see if they've got what it takes to make it out alive. Dig a foxhole and duck for cover, kids. The Chad and Cheese Podcast is taking it to a whole other level. Joel: All right, all right, all right. It's another Firing Squad, everybody. It's your favorite guilty pleasure, a.k.a the Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host Joel Cheeseman. Joined as always, the Barney to my Fred, Chad Sowash is in the house. And today we are happy to welcome Janis Kreilis, CEO and cofounder at Hyperjob. Janis, welcome to Firing Squad. Janis Kreilis: Hey, what's up Joe? Great being here. [laughter] Joel: He's excited obviously. Well, Janis, for our listeners that don't know you, give us a little bit about you the person, before we get into the company. Janis Kreilis: Yeah, sure. Born and raised in Riga, Latvia. That's the Baltic countries. US educated, spent four years in Philly, at UPenn, got my Bachelor's there. Two more years in New York, my masters there. In between those two things, I traveled across the world, was living in West Africa, Middle East, Far East, in a completely unrelated sector, the oil and gas. But then I came back to Latvia in, was that 2016, founded an NGO for networking with people like myself, you know, people who come back with this global experience. And through that segued into my first business, which was a recruitment agency specifically tailored to bring more talents to the Baltic countries. Yeah, I love music. I play pretty much the guitar, the keys, the drums. Now I have a wonderful one and a half year old at home, lovely wife. And yeah, that's, I guess the twitter bio. Joel: What is the most famous band from Latvia of all time? [laughter] Janis Kreilis: You wouldn't know it but, [laughter] We have a band called Brainstorm. It's basically like they've written half of the pop rock songs in the country. Joel: I like the name, Brainstorm. Janis Kreilis: Yeah, they've be going... Joel: I'm down. Janis Kreilis: Yeah, they've be... [laughter] They've be going for like, I don't know, 25 years now or something. Still super popular. Joel: I'm down. I'm down for Brainstorm. I'm down for Brainstorm. Chad: I'm down. [laughter] Joel: Chad, give him some Brainstorm and tell him what he's won today. [laughter] Chad: Well, welcome Janis to the Firing Squad. Now, this is how it's going to work, my friend. At the sound of the bell, you're going to have two minutes to pitch Hyperjob. At the end of two minutes, we're going to hit you with 20 minutes or so of Q&A. So be sure to be concise or you gonna to get hit by the crickets. That just means move along, tighten it up and be swift about it. At the end of Q&A, you're going to hear either a big applause, which means you've passed Hyper Speed, passed Ludicrous speed. Congratulations, you've gone Plaid, the Golf Clap. [laughter] Chad: Hyper Speed might be on the road map, but you're nowhere near hitting that velocity. Try harder, or the Firing Squad. No hyper speed for you kid. You'll be lucky to break the speed limit in the school zone with this satellite. Junk it and start over. That's Firing Squad. Are you ready? Janis Kreilis: Absolutely. That's great. Joel: God, I love a good Spaceballs reference. All right, Janis, pitch the company starting now. Janis Kreilis: So, Hyperjob allows companies to replace their plain text job descriptions with interactive and engaging job microsites. These microsites have helped our customers convert passive candidates up to... Improvement of either from 60% to six times. What I mean by microsite is basically each job description we move it from plain text, typewriter era, into a unique web page for each position that features everything about the company, that features multimedia such as images and videos, including a welcome video from the hiring manager. And then moving on to what is the pitch from the company. What are the requirements on the position? What is the team like, everything around, also the office? Hybrid, is it remote? Going into details like what's the hiring process like? Janis Kreilis: So, basically do you have a full picture of the position? And yeah, we have a great candidate feedback on that. So like I said, better, better improvement, kind of improvement in conversion ratios. On top of that, we're right now building a delivery mechanism to help companies engage with passive candidates better. So, in the kind of space of outbound recruitment, we have a CRM. We have our leveraging AI to help recruiters build short lists out of screen profiles on LinkedIn to reach out to candidates in an automated but personalized way. Yeah, so going for the full toolkit to engage with passive talent. Janis Kreilis: Finally, there's analytics. For employer branding teams, if you compare regular plain text positions, you can't really analyze much there. We have a full scope of any marketer would do on a landing page, visits, bounce rates, section clicks so that you can actually improve the conversion rates. The inspiration for Hyperjob comes from the realization that in many ways recruitment is marketing and sales, yet where marketers have great tools available to source and reach out to and convert leads... Joel: All right, Janis, your two minutes... Janis Kreilis: Yes. We need to bring this over. Joel: Is now over. All right, Janis, as we normally do on Firing Squad, let's start with the name hyperjob.io. Hyperjob.com is for sale. Did you investigate buying that? What's the story behind the name Hyperjob? Janis Kreilis: The story is, yeah, I guess the kind of illusion was with text and hyper text right? The old days of Internet where HTML comes in or you kind of move from analog, which is literally a typewritten document into something that has links, can be clicked, is digital. So we said, job descriptions and hypertext comes together in Hyperjob. So yes, that's the kind of the core product. We haven't bought the dot com yet. We don't really see the point just now, but we have looked at it. Joel: So have you explored the price tag? Have you explored like what it would take? [laughter] Janis Kreilis: If it was $500, it would be ours, but I think it was like 20K or something, so. Joel: Okay. Janis Kreilis: So, we're like not at this moment, but it's on the radar. Joel: All right, let's talk about money for a sec. You guys are largely bootstrapped. You founded the company a couple years ago. You raised about $587,000... Is a series A or a seed round in the offing, are you gonna continue to bootstrap it? Talk about funding? Janis Kreilis: Yeah, sure, so we've raised two accelerators by this point in pre-seed round. Right now, we are still actually evaluating two options. We will continue bootstrapping for a while, two reasons. We actually want to get more customer feedback and build the product out before we go into the seed round. And the second part is, well, it's no secret that the fundraising environment right now, especially in HR tech is amazing. SO, [laughter] I gonna maybe wait a bit more to actually have a better round. Joel: In Riga, Latvia, it doesn't have the price tag that a Silicon Valley headquarters might have. Janis Kreilis: Yes, that is saving us... Actually is making us way easier to bootstrap. However, that's a problem when it comes to raising from the US, because when we're doing the pre-seed round, American investors are like, "First off, what is a pre-seed round? 'Cause we do maybe angel rounds. And Why are you raising so little?" And I'm like, "Well, here's an explanation, it's just, it's not as costly to build something here and sell back to the US." So, yeah. Chad: So let's talk about experience here. You went from oil and gas, which is a slightly lucrative industry to a not so lucrative industry in some cases, HR. So why make that move? Janis Kreilis: I just love people you know. [laughter] Chad: Don't give me the bullshit answer, I want the real answer Janis. [laughter] Janis Kreilis: With all honesty, the oil and gas gig, I love the energy industry, actually, my Master's is in energy, I like it, but put it very bluntly, Latvia is a small country, we don't have that kind of an industry here. There's not a lot of opportunities. So I knew I wanted to come back here, and I just knew that, "Hey, this could remain in my background, but I need to find something else here." And yeah, I'm kinda HR for myself is kind of an accident, I'll be frank, I stumbled into it. The idea... How I got into this, as I was saying is we had this network, these meet-ups of globally experienced Latvians in Riga and I kind of also stumbled into that. And at some point, employers started coming to our meet-ups and saying, "Hey, do you have some good talent like people who are looking for work? And to me, basically a scream like, here's the business opportunity, we have a good network and there's a good demand for it. So, that's how the first recruitment agency was born and... Chad: Okay. Janis Kreilis: Yeah, I was a newcomer, and man, in the first year, I discovered every reason why there's so many different clauses in these like recruitment contracts. [laughter] Chad: So, let's jump into it. Let's jump into the company real quick. How many employees do you currently have? Janis Kreilis: We have six in the core team and two and a half freelancers, like two full-time and part-time... Chad: Okay. So, you have more products than you have employees because your product, at least a product list on the website, is source and match, attract and gauge, convert, which are your microsite, manage and nurture, analyze and improve, integrate and collaborate. That's the products or even services that are more staffing services. But those are some very extensive technologies in that list of products. You've only been around for two years, so why are you focusing so heavily on the Convert product? Which to be quite frank, it's just a microsite. Microsites has been around for well over a decade. Why are you focusing so heavily on that product? Janis Kreilis: Well, because it's actually a real innovation in the sector. In these two years, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but... Chad: Sure. Janis Kreilis: We haven't really seen of the same approach. The basically like the spotlight on, hey, you know what, your job description or job ads, job post, whatever you wanna call it, actually makes a big difference in the results or the performance of your outreach and how you can attract people. So, that's the first thing. And you know when you're... For example, [chuckle] we've done some A/B tests with some customers of ours. So, imagine like source 50 people and 50 people, get them the same kind of outreach messaging sequences, and in the test batch, you get two interviews and with Hyperjob you get 12 interviews and candidates are like, "Wow, this is great." Chad: But a microsite is different than your attract and engage. The attract and engage is, that's outreach. I'm talking about microsite. So let's not blur of lines here real quick. Have you ever heard of a company called Jobs2web? Janis Kreilis: No, I haven't, unfortunately. Chad: So, more than 10 years ago, they were actually bought by... Joel: SAP. Chad: Applicant Tracking system, yeah, SAP but it was... Joel: SuccessFactors. Chad: Yeah, SuccessFactors. This was a big trend more than 10 years ago, before you obviously got into the space. Most applicant tracking systems, most organizations have this type of "content management system" that's more of a cosmetic layer, but the problem is Janis, they don't fucking use it. So, how can you make it easier for them to actually use it and make it more practical so that they can get more qualified and relevant candidates? Janis Kreilis: Yeah, sure. So, behind the microsite, we have this builder, and we've made it very, very easy for people. It takes about 20 minutes to fill out information, check a couple of boxes, and you have that branded and ready to go. Chad: Twenty minutes per microsite? Janis Kreilis: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Chad: Okay. Janis Kreilis: Plus once you filled out the company profile, Again, it's about this content management. If you look at traditional job ads or job posts, they're all copies of each other. It's analog, messy text-based information. Here we have structured information, right? Once you've filled out let's say something on your company's profile, right? Right now we're like 300 people. In a month, we're about 400 people. I don't need to update all the job posts individually. There's centralized content management that we have. Janis Kreilis: And plus the ease is also, you'd never start with a blank page. You have a framework that you fill out in our builder, so your hiring manager can talk to recruiter and use that as a way to, "Okay, what is the assignment? What are we offering? What's the role like?" And you're done. Because otherwise, typically what ends up happening is you have an intake interview that takes both about an hour or so. It generates a lot of information. Then, in plain text, you never wanna like present a Tolstoy novel. So you kind of throw most of it out and then you hide it from your candidates, then you go back and kind of re-explain everything to people when they're actually kind of in the first intro interviews. If you use modern UI, you can have a wealth of info, and at the same time, don't overwhelm your potential candidates. So, I don't know if that answers your question, but... Joel: So, Chad went back in the day with Jobs2web, I'm gonna go back in the day with another one that Chad will probably know and you will not, company called VisualCV. The idea of the company was that instead of a text-only resume, you'd have pictures and screenshots of your degrees and videos, etcetera. It didn't take off for a variety of reasons, but one of the main reasons it didn't take off was because computers need to index your resume, so then it can go into an ATS and it can be searchable, and spiders can understand what's on the resume. When you start throwing columns and pictures, it gets really confused. Joel: Let's fast forward to today. You have Google for Jobs that needs to be sort of easily read a job. You have programmatic solutions, you have XML feeds of your jobs. And all this stuff is based on and founded in the belief that your text will be easily indexed, everything will go into the machine and get spit out in a standardized way. You're nodding your head very aggressively for the listeners out there. So, my question is, why do we need pretty jobs when we have Google for Jobs, programmatic, XML feeds? All these things go against what you're doing. Convince me that we need pretty job postings instead of standardized ones. Janis Kreilis: So, all of what you mentioned is addressing the job seeker market. It's inbound. You post your job, people apply, people who are looking for your jobs. However, with the expansion of the talent gap or the talent shortage, again, not talking about right now, but just two years ago, you would see a rise in outbound recruiting. When people... The right people don't apply, what do you do then? You have to go out and hunt for them, reach out on, let's say LinkedIn, other platforms. And here actually, you as a recruiter, you are the applicant. Because they get like 30 to 40 recruiter messages then every month. So then it's a question of how do you stand out? Janis Kreilis: And if you are trying then to sell and market to somebody, they're not coming to you, you are coming out to them, it plays a big difference from just plain text to actually having something that act as a sales material. So, that's the short answer. The analogy I would say, [laughter] given my background, and the unfortunate fact that I was a born in the Soviet Union, there were no products there. So there was no marketing. Whatever you would throw on the shelves, people would buy. It's the same way. If customers are coming to you like, "Hey, I want to work for you." It doesn't really matter that much. Yes, true. But for the roles you cannot close via your traditional channels where talent is becoming scarce, you need to fight for it, you need every tool needed. And that's why when... To answer Chad's question, why are we focusing so much on conversion? That's where conversion is really important, right? Joel: Yeah. Janis Kreilis: Give them a good pitch, find them in a better way, personalize the outreach, convert at every point of the way. Joel: It's a better hand out than most essentially. A piece of collateral essentially to pass to a candidate to get their attention. Yours is prettier. Janis Kreilis: Exactly. Joel: So, let's talk about sourcing for a second. So, a big part of your product suite is we go out to LinkedIn, we message folks, which I'm assuming is in mail and not trying to grab an email address or a phone number. You can talk about that. But essentially you're leveraging LinkedIn a lot to source. Now, we've seen a lot of volatility, to say the least in the sourcing business in the last couple of years. We've seen hiQ get sued to oblivion by LinkedIn. We've seen HiringSolved go out of business essentially, we've seen SeekOut pivot, we've seen Hiretual become hireEZ. I'm scared about the future of sourcing as a business. Convince me that you're gonna be bulletproof. Janis Kreilis: Right. Why is sourcing happening? It's because is basically a market response to a shortage of talent. And the two trends I'm thinking about is the shortage doesn't seem to be going away in the long term. If you look at the smart people at Korn Ferry, McKenzie, they've kind of evaluated that we're just not churning out enough skilled people in the IT space and digital services and so on. And the second thing is demographics, right? Boomers are retiring, Gen Z is a small generation, not gonna replace everybody. It just points to the fact that there will not be enough talent for everybody. Again, right now we're in a dip, it's a bit of a respite. Joel: Let me rephrase my question a little. So there's the future sourcing, and I do agree, like there will still be recruiters trying to find needles in the haystack. My fear is that the automation piece connected to LinkedIn, that scares me. So put my mind at ease that you're not gonna get destroyed by LinkedIn. Janis Kreilis: Hmm. Chad: What happens if they cut you off? Joel: Yeah. Janis Kreilis: Cut us off. [laughter] Joel: They identify the bots and shut you down. Janis Kreilis: Yeah. Well, actually. Joel: Is that not gonna happen and why? [laughter], Janis Kreilis: We're not really scraping LinkedIn in an automated way that would kind of say like, go... That would break the normal flow of somebody's work. Joel: But You are automating, going to profiles on LinkedIn, in-mailing people. You are automating that process. Janis Kreilis: Yeah, we're working on that. Joel: And LinkedIn has police that are looking at that and identifying it as a way to identify automation, which they don't like. So what are you doing to bulletproof yourself from LinkedIn's monitors? Janis Kreilis: You need to cap or basically you cannot give people weird superpowers on LinkedIn, right? Like send a message to a thousand people, right? So you need to cap their actions. So basically that... In a way, yes, there is an automated software run... Like doing the work, but it cannot do more than I would normally do in a day's kind of a normal workday. So you don't wanna break LinkedIn, right? It's more about playing by the rules and automating the stuff that... Okay, I need to message a hundred people, that would take me like two hours. I can run the script that does that for me, but it's not like I'm gonna do it in like one minute, right? That's the part if that goes into direction. Joel: So you're doing as much as you can to look like a human connected to someone's individual LinkedIn account so that you don't get flagged. Janis Kreilis: That's what you need to do. And... Joel: All right. Janis Kreilis: And also you don't want to enable spam, right? That break... Like that just breaks the industry for everybody. Chad: What's your plan? What's your plan B if they do cut you off? Joel: There are actually alternative sources. I mean, as you'll see, right? HireEZ of this world and SeekOut. There are alternative ways, and actually we... If you kind of look at the outbound recruitment funnel, right? There's the lead gen/getting the people's profiles, then reaching out to them and then conversion. And we see LinkedIn as a great source of profile data, but there are others who are actually actively working to replace LinkedIn. Chad: So. You don't have to reach out through LinkedIn to be able to have a conversation with this individual. So therefore, it's not going to prod LinkedIn to say you're a bad player. Totally get it. Okay. Janis Kreilis: Yeah. Chad: So on the actual website itself, it says pick the best matches without opening each profile. Go beyond LinkedIn search filters, yada, yada, yada. This is all focused around AI and scoring each profile. So a couple of questions. Who parses and matches these candidates? Is it a technology partner that you have or is it your IP? Janis Kreilis: So I'll be... Full disclosure, this is a pilot feature right now we're working on with a couple of pilot customers. What we are essentially doing is imagine a workflow where I've... Let's say I've used LinkedIn's filters to have a list of 200 potential matches, right? Chad: I totally get it. That's not my question. Janis Kreilis: Yeah. Chad: My question is, are you using a partner to help you do that or have you built the IP? Janis Kreilis: We haven't built it. We're actually leveraging GPT from OpenAI. Chad: Okay. That's what I wanted to know. Janis Kreilis: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Chad: So, who audits the scoring algorithm? Janis Kreilis: In terms of legal audit or in terms of the actual output? Chad: The actual scoring mechanism, right? So if you think about it, Amazon had an algorithm that went crazy that just kicked all the females to the curb, right? Because of its learning, the behavioral learning, right? What's to stop your algorithm from giving white dudes a 100% and females 50% [laughter]? No, what's the auditing answer there? This is, if you're working with an algorithm, especially when you're talking about OpenAI or what have you, this shit could go off the rails really quick. So what do you do to audit it to ensure that does not happen? Janis Kreilis: We actually don't enable the algorithm to do the full audit, the way you describe it. It's mostly about scorecarding and saying, answering questions for me. Like, Hey, please check if this person is also a freelancer at the same time. Please check if they're... They have like a PHP on their skills, but it was used only in university. And just go in and give me that information and it's not the AI that makes decisions. So we're not doing this, basically like, "Hey, AI, go out and find the people." And then yeah, you get into all sorts of really bad business, right? It's more about just look at it, look at each profile, and give me specific things that I'm looking for so I can take the decision then. Chad: Okay. Well, when you say use AI to score each profile on your website, you might not wanna say that if that's not exactly what's happening now. Janis Kreilis: Point taken. Thanks. [laughter] Chad: Yes. I mean, think about what you're actually saying to the people, right? And the perspective ramifications that are gonna smack you square in the face. So is the attract and engage product where you generate and send personal messages for each candidate, is that a product of OpenAI as well? Janis Kreilis: Yes. So what we're doing there, again, working on the pilots with the same customers is that we are looking at ways, again, not replacing recruiters, not automating everything, but having somebody's profile and having the Hyperjob page, right? We know the requirements and then combining those, leveraging GPT to write a good intro message. But again, we're basically giving them a first draft of like, "Hey, do you like this? Then use it. If not, you can always rewrite." It's not about like, completely replacing the recruiters. Chad: Gotcha. So are you going direct to companies on this, or are you trying to actually partner with staffing companies and or other tech companies to partner so that you can get penetration into their portfolio? Are you going direct or are you trying to go through partnership? Janis Kreilis: We are doing... Yeah, one is going directly for the internal sourcing recruitment teams. We are also starting to work with a couple of agencies who are partners in recruitment to see whether that partnership model works where they use the product and they onboard their customers. Chad: Okay. So what are you focusing on from a total addressable market when we're talking about geography? What is your focal area for geography? Janis Kreilis: Yeah, two of them actually. One is the East Coast right now in the US and the other is the UK and Scandinavia, because these are English speaking markets in specific niches. Right? Specifically tech, because that's where the talent shortage still is very much available. Joel: You talked about agencies getting this in front of them. What's been their response? Janis Kreilis: A mixed, I will be frank. Some of them, the more progressive ones who you can see, they're happy to adopt new tools, are quite excited, and they're like, yep, sure, let's have a trial. Let's get the candidate feedback. Awesome. And then there's also a more, I would say a traditional business who says, Hey, we've been in this, we're doing this for 25 years and we know how it's done and all is going well, and no thanks. Joel: Got it. And so agencies makes me think that you're targeting larger companies. What does a client usually look like, and particularly location-wise, you're in Europe, are most of your clients European? What size companies or who would you like to be in the portfolio? Talk about what the ideal client looks like. Janis Kreilis: Yeah, it's a bit of a smorgasbord to be frank. So on one end we have the German unicorn Personio, which is an HR tech company itself. They are using... Their entire sourcing team is using Hyperjob for more than a year now. So they're like a perfect customer. They have a lot of open positions, they do their own sourcing, they're very tech driven, analytics driven, really good. Here in the Nordic region, we have a global service center for one of the major banks, and their IT team is using this. So they need to hunt, right? So it's a completely different sector, but a similar need. So yeah. [laughter] that's like a couple. Joel: I guess what I'm looking for, are these enterprises that you need? Are these... Can the solo recruiter leverage your tool? What does that look like? I don't need specific companies, but generally, yeah. Janis Kreilis: Yeah. All the way... To start with these thousands of people all the way down to the single recruiter or down to a, I don't know, a startup, a scale up with just a couple of people... Joel: Okay. Anywhere in the world or English-based? Do you do other languages or? Janis Kreilis: Yeah, we do German as well, we implemented Swedish also. We're just like... They're hunting for people in the Western world mostly, we don't see us as like geography kind of constricted. Joel: Okay. So your TAM is large. It's restricted only by how fast you can add languages to it. Janis Kreilis: Yeah, pretty much. Joel: Another threat in addition to the LinkedIn police, I think the advent of video and automation, right? So recruiters don't actually have to do the follow-up, right? Bots can have a conversation through In-Mail or whatever. Is that in your roadmap for the product that you're building? Will it always be a human sort of mediation product? Talk about taking humans out of the equation or not? Janis Kreilis: I think, yes, we have thought about this quite a lot. The idea is [laughter], I'm gonna sound pretty corny, but you wanna automate the tedious and kind of personalize the meaningful. So yes, a true human connection I think we shouldn't take that out the equation. But things like scheduling, answering factual questions, emailing back and forth, a lot of that can be automated. So again, in the context of inbound, I think this automation will come much faster because then job seekers are... They want something from the companies. In the outbound space when you're trying to sell, candidates feel it very fast if you're being spammy or being like automating the process. So you want to keep this level of control. You wanna leverage AI's, let's say, write the first message, but you wanna check it anyway, right? You want have that conversation. So we're not going for a full a 100% like replace your recruiter in the next couple years, definitely. But to make them more efficient, to make them actually have more time to speak to people, yeah, that's what we'd like. Joel: Chad, I don't know about you, but this sounds really fucking expensive. Janis, talk about your pricing structure. Janis Kreilis: Right now we're charging 249 per recruiter seat per month. Yeah, the experimental features, we're still deciding on the pricing together with the first customers. 'cause yeah, we need to actually pinpoint the value there. Plus we need to pay GPT for it. Joel: All right, the non-answer answer, I love it. All right, Janis, are you prepared to face the Firing Squad? Janis Kreilis: Yes. I'm all Zen, I'm ready to face the squad. Joel: All right, Chad, get him. [laughter] Chad: Oh my God, Janis, I gotta tell you, man, I love automation. I love the idea of taking the mundane tasks away from recruiters so that they can actually provide more white glove type of time and experience to job seekers. I love the opportunity of giving the job seeker a much better user experience and providing better conversions. I love killing the candidate black hole, which we've suffered for decades. So at the end of the day, I really love what you guys are doing. Here are the aspects, here's where the but comes in. Timing, which is not great, and you said that. Not just from a funding standpoint. If you were doing this two years ago, for many aspects, you'd be ahead of the curve. Today you're not. Vision, I believe we need pretty jobs. Okay? I believe we need that. Chad: I totally do. It's a better experience with better conversions, but people won't take 20 minutes to create a single microsite, or they will just half-ass it, right? That's the problem. They just won't take the time to do it, which we've seen for decades in HR, which is why this hasn't worked in the past. Leaning heavily on LinkedIn is never a good strategy. Leaning heavy on Twitter or what have you, being able to lean that heavily on any platform, never a good strategy. The business model in itself, I believe, right out of the gate, should be really focused heavily on the staffing side of the house, because first and foremost, recruiting is their business. They understand the actual, if they can get better conversions, they get more candidates. And what are more candidates to them? It's money. That's what they care about, right? Chad: If they can do that faster, they can do it quicker, they can blow up margins, that's what matters the most. And they will take the time to actually build those things out. The TAM you're talking about regionally, US and the UK, pick one, my friend. You don't have enough money to do both. They're two entirely different animals. I will say it again, we speak English, but that doesn't mean a fucking thing, my friend. It doesn't. We are two entirely different animals. The UK staffing market incredibly different than the US staffing market, right? Same thing on the corporate side versus on both sides of the pond. And then threats. The biggest threat here is that everybody will be using OpenAI-like tech to pull this off. So these products will become features overnight, and that will be happening incredibly soon. So at the end of the day, I love everything that you're doing, but because of all those reasons, I gotta give you a Firing Squad, my friend. Joel: Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. Chad: Sorry, Janis. Sorry my friend. Janis Kreilis: Go in. I've been shot. [laughter] Joel: All right, don't roll up in a ball in the corner yet. [laughter] It's my turn. All right, so what I don't like, let's start with that. The bad news first. Chad underscored a lot of that. Look, this feels like a call that we did a time warp 15 years ago, talking about landing pages, pretty jobs, leveraging LinkedIn, maybe not a decade ago, but like the sourcing model is really volatile right now. Relying on LinkedIn is really volatile. Hopefully you're integrating with services where your email list or whatever database kind of becoming a HubSpot for recruitment that you're leveraging already existing candidates. I feel like that's probably where you're gonna have to eventually go. The fancy job descriptions, I do think if the... The point is simply, this is a brochure online that I can give to someone, that's fine. But people can't rely on this to make a lot of pretty jobs in their database and then leverage standardization. So I think you kind of get that, and this is a different animal. Those are the things I don't like overall. Joel: Let's get to what I do like. I like your education. You sort of, were really humble on that. You're Ivy League educated, you're smart guy, your resume and your profile show that. So I think you've got the wits in you to figure this thing out. You haven't taken really any money, let's be honest, in the big scheme of things. So you have a lot of room to pivot, you have a lot of time to figure it out. I'm guessing your labor costs are really low [laughter] from where you are. So there's not a lot of pressure to figure it out or go home. I do think you'll figure something out. I think the AI side of it, I like the fact that you're talking about ChatGPT and OpenAI. I do think a tool where you push a button, this whole thing automates candidate outreach and pretty jobs and video maybe you eventually get into, I think you'll figure that part out. Most of all, I love the vote of confidence from Personio. I talk a lot about them on the show. They've got a lot of money. Clearly, they have backing from investors that believe in what they're doing. And that my friend is your payday. If Personio loves you and doesn't write a check in the next 12 to 18 months, then shame on them because they missed the market. Joel: And if your goal here is to make a product where you make 10x of your investment, I think that is very doable with the money you've taken and the partner that you have apparently built and engaged with. In Personio, there are a lot of other whales in Europe that you can start knocking on the door, I think, getting attention just because you have the Personio relationship. So for that, the challenges are still there, and they stop me from giving you the full applause. I think you still have some work to do, I think you still have some pivoting to do, maybe some more bridges to build. But for that reason, I'm gonna give you. The Golf Clap. Janis Kreilis: Yeah. Joel: The Golf Clap. Janis Kreilis: Awesome. [laughter] Joel: So not your best day, but maybe not your worst day. How do you feel? Janis Kreilis: I feel great. I mean, I'd rather get honest output, right? Like honest feedback. I would love to hear, actually look into more of these things that you mentioned though. The things that were done 10 years ago in the first wave to actually learn from that. I appreciate the kind of words, Joel. It's... I don't go around bashing like, Hey, Ivy League, yada, yada, two schools and full scholarships. Joel: I'll do it for you, man. It's all good. Janis Kreilis: Yeah, thank you. Appreciate that. [laughter] But yes I agree there's still a lot of things we need to figure out. That's what I'm saying, a lot of pilots were doing. And yeah, a lot of challenges to overcome in terms of how do we automate the process? How do we make the creation easier? So yeah, thanks so much. Joel: Sounds good, man. Well, hopefully in a few years you can come back on the show, tell Chad to suck it, and you made a ton of money. [laughter] And then... Chad: I hope you do. [laughter] Joel: You guys can go have a Gin or whatever they drink. [laughter] Janis Kreilis: I'll just take Chad out with that. Joel: Where you're... Janis Kreilis: You know that. A load of money... Joel: And feed him to the fishes. Feed him to the fishes for all I care. [laughter] To be honest, our listeners that wanna learn more about you, where would you send them? Janis Kreilis: Hyperjob.io. Joel: Soon to be hyperjob.com. I'm sure. Janis Kreilis: Hopeful. Joel: With that chad. Another one is in the can, we out? Chad: We out. Outro: This has been the Firing Squad. Be sure to subscribe to the Chad and Cheese podcast so you don't miss an episode. And if you're a startup who wants to face the Firing Squad, contact the boys at chadcheese.com today. That's www.C-H-A-D-C-H-E-E-S-E.com.

In the past, we’ve been critical of SHRM investing money into startups. Seems like a big conflict of interest, but whatever. Since SHRM isn’t running to talk to Chad & Chelsea about it, how about the next best thing: The company SHRM gave money? That’s why we brought Jocelyn King, CEO of VirgilHR to the show. VirgilHR is an interactive technology that lets employees ask HR compliance questions in real-time. Seems like a company ripe for disruption from the likes to ChatGPT, but you’d be wrong (or at least that’s what Jocelyn says). The way that they chose their name is pretty cool too. Heck, it’s an all-around banger of an interview. Enjoy. TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel Cheesman: Oh. Yeah. What's up everybody? We're live from the Aaron Booth at SHRM National Las Vegas, Nevada. I'm your host Joel Cheesman, flying solo as Chad works on his savage tan in Portugal. And I am here with Jocelyn King, CEO at VirgilHR. Jocelyn, welcome to the show. Jocelyn King: Thank you for having me. Joel Cheesman: So I'm gonna embarrass myself here real quick and tell the audience that I forgot to push record when we first started talking to Jocelyn. So a lot of this is gonna be her humoring me with the same questions. We'll see if you give the same answers. That might be an interesting game to play. So for our listeners that don't know you, tell us a little bit about you and the company. Jocelyn King: Sure. So I've been an HR practitioner my entire career. I've worked predominantly for high-growth technology companies based in the US and international as well. And, because we were high-growth, we were hiring in a lot of states very quickly, either opening new locations or hiring remote workers. And it became increasingly difficult to track and comply with employment and labor laws, especially at the state and local level. There are thousands of them. They run concurrently, they supersede each other. It's a very complicated landscape. And now post COVID with a very dispersed workforce, it makes for an even greater challenge for HR professionals. So, coming from a tech background, I thought there's gotta be a technology solution out there that can address this because we're going on Google... Joel Cheesman: Sure. Jocelyn King: And we're googling these requirements online. Joel Cheesman: Yeah. Jocelyn King: Or we're talking to lawyers if we have the budget, it's either really time consuming and there's a high risk for error or it's expensive when you don't get the answers you need right away. So about a year and a half ago I decided to quit my job. At the time I was a VP of HR for a Series C Tech startup. Joel Cheesman: Yep. Jocelyn King: Out of the DC area. Learned a lot there. They went through a funding round at the time, so I learned quite a bit. Both founders actually are two of our biggest investors. They were really supportive through the whole process and made me quit my job to do this, so really fortunate for them. And now we've built out this solution and just launched it in March. Joel Cheesman: Yeah. So Virgil we have HiBob. We have MeetFrank. We have names all over the place. How did you come up with Virgil. Jocelyn King: [laughter] Yes. It is a very nerdy answer that I have for you. I was a philosophy major in college. I did my senior thesis on Dante's Divine Comedies. If you're familiar with Dante's Inferno, for example. That's the first. Joel Cheesman: Seven layers. Yeah. Jocelyn King: Yep, exactly. And Virgil, who is a real life poet, was a character in this poem and he was this beacon of wisdom and reason, and he was Virgil's guide and he took him through hell and... Joel Cheesman: Okay. Jocelyn King: Showed him all the things that, this is what happens when you do the wrong thing and tick him up, take him up to purgatory and then heaven. And I thought, well, you know, what compliance is pretty hellacious for HR and so we're a guide and we can show you, "Hey, this is what happens when you do the wrong thing and we're gonna take you to the right direction." Joel Cheesman: Got it. Jocelyn King: And it's a little pertinent, so. Joel Cheesman: Got it. Got it. Jocelyn King: Yeah. Joel Cheesman: Podcasting with Chad is my seven layers of hell but that's a different, that's a different interview. So you guys are brand new, not even outta diapers yet. You raised 1.5 million in pre-seed funding. Talk about that. What are you doing with the money? What do you plan on doing with the money? Jocelyn King: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So we closed that round in December. We were really fortunate, we have four institutions. We were part of that round, including Techstars and SHRMLabs. Having SHRM on board was really exciting because they've only ever done an outside investment like that with one other company. And it was the same time as when they invested in us. Anything else has kind of been through their accelerator, or through funds. So that was really cool that they had as much confidence in what we were doing and that they really felt like the product that we were bringing to market was something that was really needed... Joel Cheesman: Yeah. Jocelyn King: By the HR community. So we closed that in December and it was a great process. I felt really supported along the way. I don't think a lot of women in tech necessarily feel that way. And I certainly had my fair share of experiences where I was definitely treated differently because I was a woman. But for the most part just had an incredible journey and experience and met a ton of people who were really supportive. So that was good. And we've been spending the money, on the product side for sure. Joel Cheesman: Yep. Jocelyn King: But now that the product has launched, we're very focused on the marketing side in particular, so that's where our funds have really kind of been re-appropriated to more recently. Joel Cheesman: Okay. I'm glad you brought that up so you have a deep understanding of HR. Just go check out her LinkedIn profile if you wanna learn more about that. You have a tech background, doesn't really scream sales and marketing. So what's been effective for you in terms of the getting to market and letting people know and build the brand and ultimately get sales? Jocelyn King: Yeah, so we launched product in March and that's when we started marketing. We first went for the conference route. So we started the, conference train, I guess, and went through that and it was really good to us. We were really successful in these conferences. We started generating a pretty, pretty good pipeline, acquired customers... Joel Cheesman: Yep. Jocelyn King: Started generating revenue, et cetera. So that was really exciting. We've also been working a lot on content marketing and that's something that takes some time to build up, but we've been working on that quite a bit. Joel Cheesman: Can we see you karaokeing on TikTok as part of your marketing strategy or not so much? Jocelyn King: You know what? I have never been able to get into TikTok. [laughter] Jocelyn King: I. Haven't been able to do it, and nobody wants me to do karaoke. Joel Cheesman: Fair enough. Fair enough. They don't want me to do it either. They do not want me to do that either. Jocelyn King: Yeah. Joel Cheesman: So we've been critical of SHRM investing in companies on the show, and you're a real life example of a company that has gotten money. Is the criticism of saying SHRM shouldn't get in the business of financing companies that are exhibitors at their show or not giving money to people who are exhibitors. Do you get an unfair advantage by being a SHRM member? Do they give you access to the mailing list and things like that? Is it a fair criticism or not? Jocelyn King: Well, I'm not familiar with the criticisms you all have given on SHRM, but I can tell you just from my own experience. SHRM typically invests in funds. If they're investing in individual companies, it's either through their accelerator or in my case independently, VirgilHR and another company. And I think that at least the companies that I know who've gone through the accelerator and then the other company who they'd invested in the same time they've invested in me, these were companies that were... That are trying to bring a product that is very focused on the user, that really addresses a need and a pain point and is committed to ensuring the customer experience during the product journey. And that's been pretty consistent with the companies that they've invested in directly. Joel Cheesman: Yep. Jocelyn King: I don't get preferential treatment actually at all. Joel Cheesman: Okay. Jocelyn King: Being a company that's invested in by SHRM, I wish I did, but, yeah, no introductions to customers. Joel Cheesman: Okay. Jocelyn King: No discount on the booth, no mailing list access, nothing like that. Joel Cheesman: That's very refreshing to hear actually, our listeners will like to, to know that, what does a typical customer look like? Big companies, I figure they wouldn't be 'cause they can afford their own lawyers. Is it the small business somewhere in the middle? What does a customer look like? Jocelyn King: Yeah, so, we really work with companies that generally have 2,500 employees or under. There's some that are over, but for the most part it's 2,500 and under. And that's because they generally don't have internal employment and labor law counsel. Joel Cheesman: Yep. Jocelyn King: So they're having to, HR is having to go out and do all this work themselves, or they're using outside legal counsel and it's expensive. So we're helping displace some of the legal fees that they would otherwise be paying 'cause they're able to get this information at a fraction of the cost through our product. And we have, customers that have as little as 11 employees. So there's a wide range of customers that, we work with today, but across the board, they're all multi-state or they're in California, which is really a complicated state to deal with. And I think that you kind of, that's where you really start getting that level of complexity with employment and labor laws when you have to deal with so many jurisdictions. Joel Cheesman: Yep. Jocelyn King: So across the board that's pretty similar profile wise. Joel Cheesman: So a lot of state talk. Are you a global footprint? Are you restricted to the US English only Talk about that. Jocelyn King: Sure. So yeah, we just launched in March, as I mentioned. Joel Cheesman: Yeah. Jocelyn King: So we cover US all 50 states in the district. We do plan on moving into Canada next year, and then move on from there just based on kind of market demand and what maybe our current customers are asking for too. Joel Cheesman: So you're, you're a pre-seed. I would think that a little more money might make that global growth, opportunity more amenable. Are you looking to raise more money? How much? Talk about that. Jocelyn King: So we actually started our seed round last week. We're raising a $3 million seed round and, have just started having active conversations with VCs that invest in the future of work. So we're, very new to that process. Joel Cheesman: Yeah. Jocelyn King: And hopefully that gets closed by September because we do have some pretty aggressive growth goals and some goals in mind product-wise, like expanding internationally and bringing AI into our product. Joel Cheesman: Sure. So you have mentioned AI. When I toured the product, one of the things I initially said was ChatGPT is gonna destroy this company. [laughter] I know I'm wrong by the look on your face, but I want you to tell me why I'm wrong that ChatGPT can't replace what Virgil does for your customers. Jocelyn King: Oh, sure. So today, if you went on to ChatGPT and you asked it, what are the requirements for an employer when an employee's taking maternity leave in California? It will give you information about the CFRA, but it doesn't even tell you about the FMLA or PDL or if they're in San Francisco, PPLO, all these other, even the ADA, all these other laws that are relevant to that employee taking maternity leave that you have to comply with, which is really dangerous. So ChatGPT today can't handle the field of law. It's too complicated for it. Our chatbot is actually hand programmed by labor and employment attorneys. So they're looking at every single scenario pretty holistically. In the future, AI could get to that point. Joel Cheesman: Yeah. Jocelyn King: Where it could do that, and that's where we would be looking at incorporating some of that AI into our product. But along the way we're also working on a roadmap that builds out additional functionality, to risk and compliance, for example, once we close our seed round, we'll be building a predictive risk feature in our product where it will actually be able to determine percentage wise, level of risk you have in getting successfully sued for certain decisions you make, like terminating an employee or some form of disciplinary action or an accommodation, for example. And so we'll continue to build and grow and what we'd really like to be is taking hold of that compliance footprint and, go well beyond even just our chatbot today. Joel Cheesman: So did I hear you say that you created an assessment to tell a company, "Hey, you have a 50% chance of getting sued if you do this"... Jocelyn King: Mm-hmm. Joel Cheesman: I would assume that's pretty valuable. Now when I look at your pricing, which you publish on your site, so I'll applaud that for sure, but it seems kinda low. You're nodding that it is. Jocelyn King: Yeah. Joel Cheesman: I assume prices will go up at some point, but where did you come? 'cause I would think that you have to be lower than the cost of a lawyer, but you have to be higher than the cost of Googling. Was there some algorithm? 'cause I know you're a science person. Jocelyn King: [laughter] I'm not a science... Joel Cheesman: Somewhere. Well, somewhere in the 7 layers of hell did you figure out how to do pricing and how will that change in the future? Jocelyn King: Well, my spatial reasoning is limited. So there is no science involved. So we actually did an exercise when I was going through Techstars and interviewed about 75 HR leaders and asked them, how much are you spending today on this type of challenge, and how much would you be willing to spend for a solution that did X? And we took that information and then figured out, okay, this is how we wanna price it out by company size. In our case, our pricing is, kind of a mix between the license and the usage based approach. And that's to cater to, the size of a company essentially, and how often we would expect they'd be using the chatbot. So it is intentionally low right now. I'd call it early adopter pricing. Joel Cheesman: Yeah. Jocelyn King: Because what we are most concerned about today is business is product market fit, and showing that we can bring in customers. We're not as focused on the revenue side quite yet. Joel Cheesman: Okay. Jocelyn King: Once we get to that point, we'll increase our prices and, be a bit more competitive. Joel Cheesman: Do you think you'll be grandfathering in the current price to customers that hold on? Jocelyn King: I have not decided yet. Joel Cheesman: Okay. Jocelyn King: So I'm not going to answer that question. Joel Cheesman: So you're saying there's a chance, you're saying there's a chance, talk about the competition. Are there others that do this? This is a pretty new space for me, but, do you have others breathing down your neck? Are there established players or are you just the brand new kid on the block with nobody else around? Jocelyn King: No. There are absolutely other companies that have been trying to solve this challenge as well. Joel Cheesman: Okay. Jocelyn King: You've got companies like Mammoth or Expert HR, for example, I'd call them digital libraries websites. Joel Cheesman: Yeah. Jocelyn King: Where you can dig into the content they have and do some research and, and figure out, okay, this is the law that's relevant for X, Y, and Z. The problem is that it's very time consuming and, it doesn't always have the information you need holistically. And by that I mean, if you were looking at that maternity leave example in California, it might not say these are all the laws that you need to consider. Joel Cheesman: Yeah. Jocelyn King: And oh, by the way, if the person's in San Francisco, there's an additional law that you need to consider as well. So it's not comprehensive, but you have to look through a lot of stuff. Jocelyn King: And it's quite time consuming. Nobody else is really leveraging technology in the way that we are to make things more efficient and automate this process. And nobody is providing prescriptive legal guidance as well. So after our chatbot identifies what laws are applicable to a certain task and employee, we then give step-by-step guidance on everything that HR practitioner needs to do to be compliant with all applicable laws. Nobody's doing anything like that today. So then after you figure out what laws are relevant, you then have to go and figure out, okay, now what do I have to do to actually be compliant with each individual law? Joel Cheesman: Okay. Jocelyn King: And that's really time consuming. Joel Cheesman: Okay. Are you a feature or a product? Jocelyn King: I think that every HR Tech company gets asked this question and it's a little bit unfair. Joel Cheesman: Oh, okay. Jocelyn King: You know, I think that we are a company that is working toward being a product. Joel Cheesman: Okay. Jocelyn King: Maybe even a platform that's where we'd like to get to, but I do think that there is an opportunity to partner with HRIS, for example, and be an added commodity to their marketplace. Joel Cheesman: Yeah. Jocelyn King: As well. So, it's a good question. And I think at the moment we're just still too young to... Joel Cheesman: Okay. Jocelyn King: Truly have a definitive answer. Joel Cheesman: Why do you think it's an unfair question? Jocelyn King: Because I do think that in particular, it happens to HR Tech companies. HR Tech companies get asked that question. And so it's a little frustrating when you're in the HR Tech community, and I say this is just my experience of working with investors, because I know that that's not getting asked the same way in other industries. And it's kind of like, you could say almost any company's a feature. It just, I don't know. I don't like it. Joel Cheesman: Okay. Well, I appreciate you answering it, [laughter] and not telling me to fuck off. [laughter] As an unfair question, what do you want to be when you grow up? Do you want to be a platform? It sounds like you're not in it for the quick flip. It sounds like you're building something for the future, like obviously round A must be in the future and further rounds. Is that what we're looking at with Virgil? Jocelyn King: Yeah, absolutely. I, this is something that I wanna do for a bit. You know, I wanna spend some time on it. I think that there's a lot of potential in the compliance and risk management space that has yet to be explored by us and by others. And it would be very neat if we could be that one-stop shop, for these types of situations that HR practitioners go through. And if we can do it internationally, that would be incredible as well. Joel Cheesman: Yeah. Jocelyn King: So yeah, so I definitely plan on being around for a while. Joel Cheesman: All right. Well, I appreciate you sitting down with us. Best of luck to you. For our listeners that want to connect with you or the company, where would you send them? Jocelyn King: Yeah, I think, LinkedIn's a great place. Please find me on LinkedIn. But you can also always shoot us an email as well, jKing@virgilhr.com. Joel Cheesman: Awesome. That is another one in the can, everybody. We are live from the Aaron booth at SHRM National. Jocelyn, thanks for sitting down and chatting with us. We out. S?: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded it to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you'll wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could've used to buying a Nutritious meal at Taco Bell. Enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey. Or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuggleheads instead, now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We're out.

I once had a roommate who dated a stripper named Candy. Never thought that would be relevant to a podcast, but here we are. Strange days, but that’s Europe for ya’. On this episode of The Chad & Cheese Podcast Does Europe, the boys aren’t only (un)covering strippers, but also discussing Google’s latest lawsuit, alleging Big G unfairly competing against job board JobIndex, a new lie detection software that’s bound to be abused by rogue recruiters, and Elon Musk’s X Hiring from a European point of view. Did I mention these are strange days in Europe? Yup, gotta listen. TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level. [music] Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel: Oh, Yeah. It's International NFT Day. So, dust off your Bored Apes and your CryptoPunks. Chad: What? Joel: This is the Chad and Cheese Podcast Does Europe. I'm your co-host, Joel "Doodles" Cheesman. Chad: I'm Chad "Bang and blame" Sowash. Lieven: And I'm Lieven "Broadcasting from a real studio today" Van Nieuwenhuyze. Joel: And on this episode, Google gets accused of unlawful job aggregation, liar, liar, pants on fire and X hiring from a European point of view. Let's do this. Chad: Where have you been, Lieven? Lieven: Busy. Busy. Joel: I thought you said Europeans were back at work, you're still on vacation from what I can tell. Chad: [laughter] Lieven: I've been all over the place, all over the place. Busy, busy, busy. I know I've been neglecting you guys. I'm so sorry. Chad: It hurts, it hurts my heart. Lieven: Yeah, yeah. Joel: I'm only hurt that I didn't get an invite to the Brugge House of HR corporate event. That's all I'm upset about. Chad: [laughter] I wanna hold off for their big party. That's my thing. I wanna hold off for that. So, you can do the Brugge thing but I wanna hold off for the big party. Lieven: Be careful what you wish for because if Rika hears, she might invite you after all and then you're expected to take the plane and come over. Chad: Yes. Joel: I got some leather pants I wanna bring to Europe. [laughter] Joel: That's what I'm talking about. Chad: Well, they're actually assless chaps. But other than that... [laughter] Joel: Which I wish I was wearing on the mechanical bull at RecFest but that's a different conversation. So hot... Chad: Weak. Weak. Joel: Second degree burns on my thighs are not fun, are not fun. Holy shit. Chad: Oh, the trials and tribulations of sucking at riding a bull. Yes. Joel: Yes, yes. Chad: A mechanical bull. Joel: Shall we get to... Chad: The one that you asked for, by the way. SFX: Shout-out. Chad: Yes. Okay. I get the first shout-out. This is the fun one. Joel: Yep. Chad: 'Cause it's shout-out to beer after all of this last week of debauchery and Nashville drinking beer. Annual research by the Kirin Holdings Company, a Japanese beer company for all those who've never had a Kirin. Here are the top five... Joel: Ooh. Chad: Countries that drank the most beer per capita. Joel: USA. Give it to me. Chad: Number five, Poland. Joel: What? Chad: Number four, Romania. Number three, Lithuania. Number two, Austria. And number one, almost doubling Austria's consumption per capita, The Czech Republic, kids. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Wow. So, listen... Lieven: Was this a global list? Chad: It was global. Germany was number seven, the US was 17 and Belgium didn't even make it into the top 30, Lieven. Wow. Lieven: We sell our beer. We sell our bear. Joel: How is Austria so high? It's like the size of Connecticut. Like how much beer... Chad: It's per capita. Joel: Oh, per capita. Chad: It's per person, yes. That's where we try to make it fair. Yeah. So, if we just take a look at the all out consumption, China, obviously with the most people in the world and then the US. I mean, those are there but per capita, who by person drinks most? It's the Czech Republic. Now, Czech Republic beer is pretty good. I like it... Lieven: Yeah. Chad: But it's not amazing, that's for goddamn sure. [chuckle] Joel: It's not Belgian, is it? Chad: No, it's not Belgian beer. I think the next breakdown we're gonna have to check out is the top five global consumption of what brands of beer, what types of beer. Maybe that's next. Joel: I wanna see the list for meth usage. I think we'd fare better on that one as Americans. I think... Chad: Yes. Joel: I think we do better on that one. All right. Well, my shout-out... SFX: Ai, papi. Joel: All right, our industry has seen some pretty kooky names over the years, guys. HiBob, JobStar, Jobfox, I could go on but we may have a winner for worst name with the introduction of Candydate out of the UK. Chad: [laughter] Joel: When I say Candydate, what do you think of? Lieven: Ah, sounds great. Chad: It's like the new Tinder, right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: I mean, Candydate. Woo. Joel: Yeah, so... Lieven: I wish... Joel: It's supposed to read like candidate but ends up sounding like... And it's spelled like, my roommate in college, she used to hook up with a stripper named Candy. Chad: Yes. Lieven: Of course. Chad: It sounds like a stripper, like a stripper like dating app. Joel: Yeah. Yeah. Like, "Hey dude, you wanna go to The Chug for dollar pictures?" "No, man. I got a date with Candy tonight. I got a Candydate." Candydate is billed as an applicant matching system that leverages short videos. I'm not sure what's on those short videos. So, its... Chad: OnlyFans videos. Joel: Its tagline is, Recruitment sweet as candy. Oh, god. Are you serious? Lieven: Oh. Chad: That sounds like a Cheesman joke right there. Joel: Yeah, that's bad. That's bad. Recruitment as sweet as candy. Candydate gets a shout-out for just being awful, just being awful but making me laugh. Lieven: I do love the name Candydates. I should have come up with that one, Candydate. I love it in fact. Chad: [laughter] I love it. Lieven: Okay, maybe its a bit embarrassing but I love it. Candydate. Joel: Lieven, you got a shout-out, man, while you ponder how many girls named Candy you've dated in your lifetime? Lieven: Not one. I feel I'm missing out on something. So, shout-out to all the Candys in the world. I've never dated a Candy. Please face this one. SFX: Just the tears. Lieven: I think everyone should have dated at least one Candy in his lifetime. Chad: You might wanna check with your wife on that one, but okay. SFX: What are you doing, step bro? Lieven: Honey, I'll call you Candy. Something like that. She never ever listens to the show. She wouldn't even know. Chad: Oh, okay. Lieven: I mean, I asked her and she said, "That's the podcast, right?" And I said, "Yes." And, "I don't even know where it's listed". So then, I gave up. But, she has other qualities. Chad: [laughter] Joel: Well, maybe we can meet her because we're going to Europe pretty soon. Lieven: You are. Joel: Chad, tell us about that. Chad: Yes. UNLEASH World is coming, kids, in Paris. That's right, early to mid-ish. I guess you could say. October. Joel: 12th to the 14th. Something like that. 13th, 14th. Chad: Yeah, yeah. So, yeah. So, if you aren't registered, there's still time left, just go to chadcheese.com/events. I mean, this is one of the staples when it comes to events that you have to go to, not just because it's in Paris, but it's UNLEASH Paris. We've got a great startup competition. They've got startup alleys. It's really incredibly cool. So, come check us out. I don't even know what we're gonna be doing yet, Cheesman. Joel: Lieven, are you gonna be there? Is Lieven coming to UNLEASH? Lieven: I'm just going to drop by to give you both a hug and say hello and show you my candy. [laughter] Chad: And then go to Moulin Rouge. Joel: Bring us a Douville and introduce us to Candy. That's it. SFX: Ai, papi. Chad: I'm going to Moulin Rouge this time, dammit. I am meding up. Lieven: You should. Chad: I'm not catching the Paris flu this time. Joel: Well, we know where Lieven will be. Hopefully the House of HR event finally has a date. Lieven, tell us about it. Chad: Ooh, when is this? Lieven: Next year, 2024, March 19th. And it will be in Amsterdam this year. It's a beautiful location, beautiful location, walking distance from all the places you're not supposed to be except if you're with Candy, of course. But, it's really... The location alone is the reason to be there. But on our next episode, I'll give you all the details. The title, as I mentioned before, I guess, is The Digital Shift and it's about managing your digital teams. You have workers and you have coworkers and you have digital workers, and that's the whole idea. It's about AI, it's about digital and it's of course about Amsterdam. Chad: I can see a Chad and Cheese VIP party in the Red Light District. Lieven: I'm going to arrange you two boats because I saw RecFest gave you a... What was it? A boat? Chad: A pontoon. Yeah. Lieven: Yes. A drinking boat, it wasn't drinking. How did you call it? Joel: Booze Cruise. Chad: Booze Cruise. Lieven: The Booze Cruise. The Booze Cruise. I was so jealous. And I tell, okay, if they can give them a booze cruise, I'll give them two. Chad: Yes. Joel: Chad and Cheese, a booze cruise and Candy. SFX: What are you doing step bro? Joel: From Amsterdam next year. I'm excited. I'm excited. [music] CHad: TOPICS! Joel: All right, boys. Google is facing a lawsuit in Denmark for allegedly and illegally aggregating job listings from a rival marketplace. The case highlights potential limitations on Google's job ambitions and raises concerns about the influence of big tech on niche industries. Jobindex, who says it's the leading Danish job marketplace, claims Google violated copyright by republishing its listings. This legal challenge may set a precedent for other global recruitment platforms to go after Big G. Chad, does Denmark have a case or are they in dane in the membrane? Chad: So bad. So first and foremost, I'm not the biggest fan of Google and their ability to have a monopoly in search for many countries all over the world. But, this lawsuit to me makes no fucking sense. So, I have questions. Joel: Yep. Chad: Number one, I thought the job site had to elect to use Google for Jobs by adopting the Google for Jobs markup language. So, did they use the markup language? That's my first question. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. But, that was the standard for the US companies. Then number two, Google scraping content. I mean, Google is a search engine. It scrapes content and indexes content without asking for permission. Why are we having to even have this discussion? It feels like I'm explaining 1994 to a job board. And why isn't Jobindex stopping the scrape with their robots TXT file? Why not? I don't get it. So, my third one... Joel: Yep. Chad: Last but not least, copyright infringement. See number one and number two, for God's sakes. If you don't want your shit indexed, you have options. And I really feel like I'm talking to job board toddlers here, but Jobindex has been around since 1996. So, this is either a bullshit ploy or they're the dumbest job board in the world. The question was, which one is it? Joel: Yep. Chad: Then you look a little bit further and it's like, oh, wait a minute, I see exactly what's happening. Here's from the SIA Report, "Jobindex reported a 7.8% drop in second quarter revenue which is about 12.9 million." So, that was compared to the same quarter this previous year. This is a bang and blame moment, baby. It's a failing, it's a failing dog of a job board that now needs a reason to blame somebody and Google is the biggest bully in the room. So, why not? SFX: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Joel: So, this is a quote from the CEO of Jobindex. "We're willing to compete with Google but it must be on equal terms, not with Google for Jobs having products on its shelves that aren't theirs." So, is he saying that if all the jobs were on Google, he'd be okay with it? I don't think so. I mean, Google has been dealing with these litigious Europeans for over a decade. The US gets a bad rap about suing everybody but the Europeans are just as bad at suing companies. Look, Google's very careful about these aren't Google jobs, these aren't on Google. And I think that's a big reason why they nixed Hire because they knew if they had Google for hire and people were posting jobs on Google, that they were gonna face issues like this, most likely in Europe, which they are. These are listings that go to other job sites, it's a vertical search just like travel or shopping that sends you to another job posting on another site, whether it's the company site, whether it's Monster, whether it's whatever. Right? So to me, like this guy would do be doing a lot better if they put resources to hiring some SEOs to help them optimize their job postings to rank better on the Google for Jobs solution. Joel: We talked to someone recently, Chad, about how to optimize your jobs, what to do, what to look for. Apparently, Jobindex isn't doing that or people, maybe they have a shitty brand and people don't wanna click on it when they see it in Google results and they're not getting traffic that they want to, I don't know Jobindex enough to know if they're a shitty site or if they're spamming people or the job seekers just know that they're a bad site to go to, but they are doing it wrong. Most sites that know how to leverage Google for Jobs are getting an increase in traffic, not a decrease. Chad: Yeah. Joel: So, these boneheads need to figure out their marketing, need to figure out their brand. Stop blaming Google, stop looking for a quick paycheck from Google to help facilitate whatever lost revenues you have. Chad: Deep pockets. Joel: This is ridiculous. Look in the mirror, get your shit straight and fix it and you'll find that Google is your best friend, not your worst enemy. Lieven: I tend to agree with both of you. I looked into this. I feel if Google copies job ads to get enlisted in the Google for Job app and then links to the source in this case, Jobindex, I don't see a problem. They should be happy. Chad: Yeah. Lieven: They're helping them getting their jobs filled. If they would use job ads from Jobindex but link to a different source to finish the application, that would be something totally different. But in this case, I don't think it's the case. So, normally jobs got listed on Google for Jobs via an API, not by scraping. If the Danish company, if Jobindex, didn't connect their own websites to that API, they never linked it. But, Google is scraping and it's putting it in Google for Jobs, then they might have a case because normally, it's only through an API and you have to reach out to Google themself to have your jobs listed. They apparently didn't and their jobs are listed anyway, so they could have a point. And they claim, and that's probably the reason why they go to courts, they claim since Google launched Google for Jobs, we had a big drop in organic ranking, in organic traffic. And that's... They feel their competitive... They've got a competitive disadvantage. And there, they might have a case because if a small European company is trying to sue big evil Google, European lawyers might tend to feel sympathetic. Joel: But be clear, this isn't Google scraping their jobs and putting them on Google as Google jobs. This is Google sending them traffic for free. Jobindex can shut off Google in a second. Lieven: Yeah. Joel: All they have to do is put robots.txt... Chad: Yes. Joel: Like deny Google. So, this is so ironic that this company has their jobs on Google for free and then they're gonna go sue Google for the same reason that... I mean, it's just so stupid. Lieven: For not getting enough for free, something like that. Joel: Unless Google is just write checks... Lieven: That's ridiculous. Joel: Over nothing just by getting letters from lawyers. This is ridiculous. No court... Chad: Yes. Joel: Like no court in any industrialized world is gonna take this case. Chad: No. Joel: This is just ridiculous. Lieven: Maybe in France. [laughter] Chad: Possibly, possibly. But it's... Again, it's on Jobindex. If they... I mean, if they're getting their jobs into Google for Jobs, which they'd have to have the markup, number one. And that means that Jobindex would actually have to do the work to be able to get their jobs into Google for Jobs. Lieven: Of course. Chad: If this is just an SEO, your search engine ranking pages, you've been doing this for years and you know... You've been around since 1996. If you don't know how to robots.txt and get that shit either blocked by this point, this is on you. Right? This is what search engines do, this is what they've always done. Right? So, this is the dumbest lawsuit. Joel: And to be around since '96 and not understand SEO and how Google works, how are you still in business? How are you still in business? Like, it's just, it's just maddening. Chad: It's all about bottom line and drop in revenue and they've got to blame somebody and Google is the easiest target, especially now in the EU is the easiest target to go after. I just think this is the dumbest set of reasons to go after Google. There are some great reasons to go after Google, there are some amazing reasons to go after Google. These are not... None of these are reasons. Lieven: Yeah. Joel: Yeah. This is where this case is going. SFX: SFX. Chad: [laughter] Lieven: I suggest we follow it and keep reporting on it. Joel: We will follow this for sure. Yeah. Yeah, we'll follow it getting... Chad: Oh, this will be fun. I actually reached out to the... One of the founders of Jobindex or part of the C-suite to ask them to come on to explain this to us because as you can hear already, we think it's dumb. So, please help us understand why it's not dumb. SFX: SFX. Joel: Is is that what happened when you asked them to... Chad: I just reached out this morning. Give them time. Give them time. Okay. Joel: We'll give them a little bit of time. All righty, till then, well now they're never, they're never, they're never calling back. When we come back, a little lying... Chad: Yes. Joel: A little lying on the show. All right, boys. A new tool mysteriously out of Iceland promises to help anyone detect lies over video calls. That's right, LiarLiar.AI says it's an AI-powered lie detection tool that analyzes body language and facial cues during video calls. Chad: [laughter] Joel: It translates psychological indicators into mathematical formulas, whatever the hell that means, using real-time video feeds to detect potential deceit through subtle cues like eye gaze and heart rate changes. LiarLiar.AI promises real-time insights without invasive measures making it effective for truth-seeking during video interactions across various platforms while maintaining data privacy, privacy allegedly. Liar Liar is one of Jim Carrey's best films but is it a good tool for employers? Chad, your thoughts. Chad: So, Jobindex would have a much stronger case against these guys than they do Google. Okay? And they're probably not even connected to this LiarLiar system. This to me, I thought was a joke. Right out of the gate, I thought is this April Fool's Day? Do I wear a heart rate monitor? How do you know what my heart rate is? How do you know over video what my heart rate is? We've had this discussion before around HireVue who got smacked in the face where Illinois actually created a regulation that was specific to facial recognition in HireVue alone. To me, for this to be happening in Europe, this is gonna be stamped out incredibly fast. [chuckle] Joel: I wonder what the laws are in Iceland as far as you know. Lieven: But why do you think it's from Iceland? I thought it was from Bulgaria. Joel: Mysteriously, so, I did some digging. Chad: Is it Bulgaria? Lieven: I thought it was Bulgaria. Joel: The domain and everything looks like it's in Iceland. Now, it looks like they're spreading out a little bit. Anyway, it's kind of irrelevant to the topic but they are a little bit dodgy to say the least. This is not like... Chad: Sketchy. Joel: We got some VC and we're setting up shop in London. I mean, this looks a little bit dicey. So, Chad is dead right. Like, no legitimate company is gonna touch this with a ten foot pole in terms of recruiting. I guess some individuals in regards to dating or something may try this. What does scare me though... Chad: Ooh, Candydate. Lieven: Yeah. The moment that I asked Candy for a dinner or... Joel: Candydate's new functionality. SFX: Ai, papi. Joel: Okay. Chad: [laughter] Oh, that brings back memories. Joel: It's so cheap. HireVue is not a like, "I'm gonna go rogue. I'm a person recruiter and I'm gonna get this and my company doesn't know about it." This thing is cheap enough that there are gonna be some rogue recruiters download this on their computer, try it out, do interviews online and use it to recruit. And if that gets back to the company's hiring practices, then oh shit, then the company's in a world of hurt. So, whereas HireVue you're spending tens of thousands of dollars... Chad: Easily. Joel: And there's no risk of like an individual recruiter going rogue and like buying this product. LiarLiar is gonna get some recruiters that buy it and use it and if you're an employer, make sure that your recruiting team if they're off-site or whatever is not using shit like this because you will get pinched in a big way if it comes back that you're using this type of... Chad: Or staffing companies that you pay to do this because you're still liable. This doesn't just go to the staffing company or the RPO. This is something... I mean this is where it's really incredibly important that you understand the stack that the staffing company or the RPO is using to be able to provide the output of candidates in the candidate pool for you. And if anybody would know anything about this, it'd be Lieven... Joel: It would be. Chad: Because he does a little bit of technology in a pretty goddamn big umbrella of staffing companies. [laughter] Lieven: First of all, we wouldn't use a tool like this officially in our company, of course. But, I did try it out and I... For only 35 euros, I was able to become a founding client which will give me lifetime access... Chad: [laughter] Joel: There you go. There you go. Lieven: To LiarLiar.AI. Chad: Oh, god. SFX: All right, all right, all right. Lieven: Yes, for only 35 euros. I mean, I had to try it and then I tried to install it on Apple but it didn't really work out. And then I got some kind of help from ??? if I pronounce him correctly who happens to be the founder of LiarLiar and the company owner. And it's... I think it's one man company. He was really friendly, he helped me out on how to install it. It never worked out on Apple, but he promised me it would work like a charm on a PC. I didn't try it yet. I'm going to try it on a PC and next time, I'll tell you how it works. But, I looked into it and I... Joel: It says it integrates with Zoom and other video platforms... Lieven: Yeah. Joel: Have you tried it on Zoom? Lieven: And this just makes it so much fun. I mean, you see on your screen all these little ratings and you can share your screen and you can show the people in the meeting, "Haha, you were lying, detected." [laughter] Lieven: This is much fun. I mean, I'm looking forward to it. Joel: Your blood pressure went up. We can tell. Lieven: I Knew you were full of shit. Look, look, look. Yeah. And then, your eye was blinking. The system has seen it. And... Joel: Could you imagine an interview where at the end of the interview they show you the screenshot of your lies from your interview? Chad: Yeah. Lieven: I mean... Joel: Oh, my god. Lieven: It's a perfect way to test the resilience of a candidate, I mean. Chad: [laughter] Joel: Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. Yeah. Lieven: How will a candidate respond to being accused... Chad: Of lying. Lieven: Of lying by a tool like this? It's a great test. Joel: Do they have like an insurance policy if you're sued for using this, that they'll support your lawsuit and... Chad: [laughter] Lieven: Nobody believes it works, so you can't. I mean, it's a trick. Joel: I bet if you look in the terms, there's like a, "Not to be used for professional purposes, only for entertainment purposes." Lieven: It actually never mentions anything like hiring or something, but does look like a great website. The guy was really helpful and I happen to be very enthusiastic about it. Joel: You're enthusiastic about it. Lieven: We're going to give it a try, I'll keep you posted. Chad: It's like a new toy. Joel: I'm telling Rika that Lieven is going rogue and using a lie detector tool in his interviews. Lieven: I never do interviews with candidates anymore... Joel: It's okay. Lieven: So, I'm allowed to use it if... Chad: Like other vendors, right? Joel: I interview Candy... Chad: Yeah, yeah. Lieven: Candydates. If I date Candy, I'll use it. [laughter] SFX: SFX. Joel: Oh, god. How much time do we spend on that? Lieven: You have to admit it's a creative idea. Chad: Sure. Lieven: I like it. Joel: But, it's more like novelty. Lieven: Of course, of course. Chad: It's snake oil. Joel: Totally. Chad: It is total, total snake oil. Lieven: It's funny. Joel: Totally. Some dating app is gonna buy this and like tell you when you're... I'm not going there. [laughter] Joel: Okay, let's go to... From one tech that might work to another tech that works some of the time. Do Europeans like to play cards? Well, X, the artist formally known as Twitter unveiled job cards for displaying job listings in user feeds last week. These cards showcase job details and redirect users to external application forms. They work on desktop and iOS but Android support remains unclear. XHiring introduced in July aims to compete with LinkedIn offering job postings to verified X accounts which cost 1000 USD per month. We've discussed this on the weekly show from an American point of view but let's look at it from a pair of European eyes. Lieven, what are your thoughts on Elon Musk getting into the hiring business? Lieven: You do remember, I used to be a very big fan of Elon Musk. Joel: You love Musk. SFX: [laughter] Lieven: I used to love him. I used to love him, but then he screwed Ukraine and then I stopped loving him all of a sudden. So... Chad: That'll do it. That'll do it. Lieven: I'm an ex Twitter user. I'm not an X user, I'm an ex Twitter user. And there are so many people in Western Europe who really don't use, even never used Twitter at all. So, I think it's a much bigger thing in where you live and where we do. It's Twitter or X now. In Belgium for example, is something politicians are on. Some journalists are on to see what those politicians might tweet whenever they're drunk. And then, you have those extreme right people who are using it as a channel to talk to other extreme right people. But, the bullshit told there is not something one would proudly share with his employer and Twitter claims or Elon claims this might be a competitor to LinkedIn. This has nothing to do with LinkedIn. I mean, LinkedIn has a huge database with valuable resumes. But on Twitter or on X, people don't even use their real names in many cases and they shouldn't because you don't want to get confronted with the bullshit you tell on Twitter. So, it's something... It's totally different. I don't believe for one second this will work. Joel: You're a user, aren't you, Lieven, of Twitter/X... Lieven: Oh, of Twitter because I felt kind of... You're a user, I'm not, I'm not a user... Joel: House of HR has a ton of brands. Are those brands currently on X? Lieven: Most of them probably are totally not. I have an account but I hardly use it. Joel: Like, is House of HR on Twitter? Lieven: No. Joel: No? Lieven: No. We probably have an account just to keep the name so nobody else can tweet out of our own name, but we don't ever put anything on Twitter. No. Joel: So, not bullish on XHiring in your... Lieven: Totally not and our clients aren't. Some people are, of course, and some people like it. Compared to Facebook or even Reddit, Twitter is nothing. Joel: Yeah. Lieven: Or Instagram or even WhatsApp or Snapchat. No, Twitter isn't a big thing. And I should specify, I'm talking about our own main markets, Belgium, France, The Netherlands and Germany. It's probably something else in the Nordics or in Eastern Europe, but I don't think there is a big thing as well. But correct me if I'm wrong. Chad: I just don't understand why they're overextending themselves like this. I mean, you're talking about a market, the job market, the jobs market which is infinitesimal compared to the money that they've lost in the advertising market, right? Lieven: Sorry, but what does infinitesimal mean? Chad: Very small. Lieven: Okay. Chad: Incredibly small. Uber, uber small, right? SFX: Just the tip. Chad: So, it's so small, I don't know why you're wasting your time when you're losing hundreds of millions of dollars on the advertising side of the house. I mean, if he could just get his optics tweaked and quit being an idiot, I mean, he's lost so much money 'cause people don't want their brand on there. Now, here's the thing, if I don't want my brand on there and I stop spending millions of dollars in advertising, what the hell makes you think that I want to put my jobs on there? Again, it's a brand sentiment kind of a thing. So again, I think they're overextending and then we can get into the matching and relevant content discussion which it's gonna be hard as fuck for them. This is exactly one of the reasons why Facebook got out of it. So yeah, I think this is using a thimble to bail out the Titanic. It's just not gonna happen. Joel: Lieven mentioned the influence of Twitter/X in Europe. So, currently the numbers that I saw was in the U.S, there are about 77 million active users on Twitter. Europe is twice the size population-wise of the U.S, but there are fewer users of Twitter in Europe than there are in the US. So, it's a much smaller pool that Elon would be trying to tap into. The other thing is in terms of... Some of the markets, a thousand a month is gonna be no big deal to be a verified account and just throw up jobs. But, a lot of these markets, $1,000 a month is real money. So, the penetration in the UK, France, Germany, I think that's a discussion. But, when we look at Estonia and some of the smaller markets, like I don't think it's even gonna be a consideration. So, I don't see XHiring being a huge impact in the US and I certainly don't see it as a big impact in Europe. Chad: Or taking over LinkedIn. Again, we've talked about this before, Handshake, when they got their first... When they got their last big round, they came out hard in press saying, "We're targeting LinkedIn." That's how they got the money in the first place, right? They're like, "We can be like LinkedIn but only in this area." Twitter's doing the exact same thing. They're pointing at the big bully in the room, which is LinkedIn at this point, at least the big revenue share bully and it makes sense. But, we've seen this fail over and over and over and these guys, they just don't have what it takes. Joel: But, you know what they say about the stuff that Elon Musk does? SFX: 60% of the time, it works every time. Chad: [laughter] Joel: Boys, it's been fun. It's been too long. We're headed into fall. Lieven, we're coming to Europe soon and we will see you when we do. Another one in the can, we out. Chad: We out. Lieven: We out. Outro: Wow, look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese Podcast or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back, valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now, go take a shower and wash off all the guilt but save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite western, you can't quit them either. We out.

Text messaging, or SMS, first came into prominence two decades ago by voting on American Idol, but the technology is as hot as ever for employers. It’s starting to look like text recruiting is here to stay. That’s why we invited Rick Koerner, VP of unified communications at UPS on the podcast. Rick has been texting with job candidates for almost a decade, and he brings his best tips and takeaways to the podcast. Along the way, he throws in anecdotes on all things UPS, like how deliveries only happen one right turn at a time to increase efficiency, and his own story about why he doesn’t have a LinkedIn profile. Say what?!?!? PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps forward thinking employers create world class hiring and retention programs for people with disabilities. Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Oh yeah. It's your bartender's favorite podcast, AKA the Chad and Cheese Podcast. This is your co-host, Joel Cheesman. Joined as always, the peanut butter to my chocolate, Chad Sowash is in the house, and today we are excited to welcome Rick Koerner, VP of Unified Communications at UPS. Rick, welcome to the podcast. Rick: Thanks. Thanks, Joel, for that. Yeah, Rick Koerner, UPS. I'm a UPSer. I've been there 22 years. I'm native to the Northeast. I live in New Jersey, born and raised. Spent a little time in Florida in there. New Jersey Devils fan. And I'll let you guys take it from there. Joel: And a Giants fan as we learned in the green room. So Rick, when I do a show, I go to LinkedIn and I do my research on where you went to school, past jobs. I couldn't find you on LinkedIn because shockingly you're not on LinkedIn. Please explain to me why you are morally opposed to LinkedIn. Rick: So when LinkedIn was first developed, right? So I'm not a social media guy. And being a man north of 40 years old, I will say that I usually tell people, anybody that's on social media or Facebook at my age, only three things are going to happen. You're going to end up in jail, you're going to lose your job or you're going to get divorced. So you should probably stay off of social media. All right. So at the end of the day, that's my stance on Facebook and social media. However, when it comes down to LinkedIn, I was all in. I built this huge profile and I was so proud of it. I put in dedicated hours and I really wanted to do, when it was first deployed, it was about networking with other peers, right? Rick: So we're going back more than 20 years ago. At that point in my career, I want to do some networking. Maybe I'll find another opportunity. Maybe I won't be at UPS. I'll see something else because of my experience. And then the phone calls started and it was every head hunter, and they didn't want me. They wanted to know what UPS was hiring for the next year. And after constantly weeding through emails, and I'll tell you, even after I deleted my profile, it took like a year and a half before I finally fell off the list, and I would get phone calls and it'd be like, "Hey, we want to know, what's UPS looking to hire for the next year?" Joel: You were scrapped. Rick: Yeah. So at that point, I abandoned LinkedIn. If there was a way to build a profile to avoid that, I probably would go back. And I'm sure the profile still exists and I could resurrect it, but at the end of the day, that's why I'm not on LinkedIn. Joel: That's a negative. Chad: So today it's all about wealth managers instead of recruiters. Joel: Life insurance. Chad: You've got all these wealth managers and life insurance like, "Hey Chad, how's your life insurance look?" So it's starting to develop, and let's say for instance, transform a bit, but not in a good way, Rick. Not in a good way. So I appreciate that. Unfortunately, I am addicted. I don't agree. I think that in my 20s and 30s, I would have been screwed with social media. Luckily, it really wasn't around, let's say 20s or early 30s. But as being an adult, let's just say a more mature adult now, I don't have that problem 'cause I see all the kids and them doing stupid shit and I'm learning from that. Joel: Thank God we didn't have it in our 20s. Rick: Yeah, you have emotional intelligence now. My wife will share with me some of the things that people post, and you're right, a lot of it is in maturity, but usually my first reaction is not one the world wants to hear, so. Chad: Yes, I feel you. No, I feel you. The why are you such an asshole response, right? Rick: Right. Exactly. Chad: That being said, tell us a little bit about what you do at UPS. What makes you tick on a daily basis? Rick: Coming out of the gate, I started UPS 22 years ago. I was in the IT vertical. I was part of a team that helped to work on the package delivery system that you have today. Back then it was just all about tracking numbers and tracking your package to see when it was going to be delivered. Just as a lot of new technologies, things tend to mature, and as they mature, the groups tend to change, and that job evolved into more of a project management. As I grew as a person, I think I realized that one of my talents is that I tend to look at things, and it doesn't matter if it's in IT or not, but I tend to look at them and ask myself why? But then I also come to a solution. So I had two really quick examples. One, I was in, of all places, Cheesecake Factory. So when I'm in there, I only eat cheesecake 'cause why else would you not get cheesecake in the Cheesecake Factory? Chad: That's why you go to the Cheesecake Factory. I mean. Come on. Rick: So I was in there and I had said to the waiter, I said, "I want to try all 30 of these." And he was walking me through each one, 'cause you got to go one at a time. And I told him, I said... Chad: We're fast friends already. I love this. Rick: Yeah. I said, I go, "I don't understand why Cheesecake Factory doesn't offer cheesecake flights." I would pay for three or four pieces of cheesecake in a smaller portion. And I said, "Look, you want a job in the corner office. Why don't you write that up and send it up there and see if they give you a bump or something." But my brain constantly works that way. Joel: Rick, my friend, you're an evil genius. Cheesecake flights. I love it. I love it. Continue, please. Sorry... Rick: The second one I had was I was in the Apple store 'cause, of course, eventually, one of those products gives us pain we can't fix with Google. So I'm in there and the Apple genius was helping me out. And as he was, I told him, I said, "I go home at night, and despite this being a wireless technology, I always have to plug it in or I have to put it on the Mac charger or whatever it is." I said, and then I have a watch, then I have earbuds. I go, "Why can't I plug the phone in and then put the earbuds on top of the phone and put the other devices, the watch sitting on the phone and let the phone charge off of it without plugging it in?" So, I'm sure Apple will get there. I also don't understand why it's not self-charging like the old watches, not all day, but just a little bump, something to make me go an extra two hours without having to plug it in. So. Chad: A self-winder. Joel: You're like the Kramer of recruitment, like let's put the mustard and the ketchup in the same jar. Rick: So I've lucked out in UPS in that I've had management and leaders that have kind of accepted the fact that I don't necessarily think that way. And they don't tell me no. And through time, so with HR systems and whatnot, because they don't tell me no, when things come along, they let me spread my wings a little bit. And then sometimes I get pulled back down to earth 'cause not every idea is a good idea, and I'm okay with that too. But if I have one out of every 10, then it's a win-win for everyone. Right? Chad: Yeah. Let's talk about UPS, obviously big into automation. Have to be, to be able to get those packages out as fast and as quick as Americans demand, because we have to have it in the next five minutes. So, being on the recruiting side of the house, what have you been seeing in automation that has gotten you excited and gotten your brain going and thinking, okay, we could prospectively implement something like that to help our recruiters do less administrative types of jobs and tasks? Rick: I like to look at the younger generation, and the ones that are coming up that will eventually replace us. And luckily, I have two of them in my house. I tend to ping things off of them. And I'll say to them, like, "What do you think of this?" Or, "How do you want to communicate?" So primarily, the generation coming up, the high schooler and my college age student, they want to text. They don't want to call. So you sit back and you look at their engagement in applying for a job, they want to do it all online. They have the fastest thumbs I've ever seen in my life, and they fill out an application, and then they just sit back and they're like, "Oh yeah, I'm just waiting. They're going to schedule an interview." On top of that, I think they want this. They want the face-to-face interview. They don't want a phone call. They don't want a rejection card like it was 1997. They want a rejection like, "Hey, we're going to keep you on file," via text. That's fine. Rick: It's funny because I made fun of texting back when phones didn't have a keyboard. But the bigger thing I made fun of was the fact that when the camera came out on a phone, I didn't realize that my camera also needed to have the ability to text, But yet, nowadays, I take more pictures and texts than anything possible. And it was a younger person at an amusement park that I worked with on like a day trip that educated me when we parked the car. And I was like looking at the sign, I'm like, "Oh, G37. I need to remember G37 is where the car is." And he takes out his camera, takes a picture and he goes, "I got it." I'm like, "Genius." I'm a little older. I use the camera now to read the menu in the Cheesecake Factory to blow it up so I don't have to wear my glasses. Chad: With the light on. With the light on. Rick: With the light on. Chad: And say, "Can we turn the lights up in here for God's sakes? It's a little dark." Joel: My sister-in-law does that. She takes a picture then enlarges it to see what it is. It's crazy. Younger people are communicating in a different way. We also know they all have ADHD. And I found it really intriguing on the UPS website. It says, "Get a job offer in 25 minutes." Is that driven by youth? Are there stipulations? How did that come about and what's the response? Rick: I would love to answer that question. I have no idea we even have that out there. I am sure that it is driven by the need for UPS to fill the position and the fact that people want instant gratification. Chad, you mentioned it earlier with deliveries, we want... I ordered something yesterday at 2 o'clock in the afternoon. It was in my mailbox at 6:00. How and why, I don't know, nor do I care, but... Joel: That is a great point. If people expect their packages in such a short period of time, you have to have an application process, I assume, that is just as quick. Talk about that. Chad: It's standard. Rick: Yeah, that's exactly where we're taking it. And nowadays, with the texting solutions that are available today, and we use the product offered by iCIMS, and primarily during our peak season, so UPS starts ramping up, September we start thinking about it, October we start deploying. You're talking about adding 105,000 peak helpers. So these are part-time jobs where it's going to be 20 hours or less. We also have PVDs, which is personal vehicle drivers. Based on business need, we need a way to communicate to them. So, from the second that they're onboarded, we ask them if it's okay if we send them a personal text message. So we had to go through the process of getting legal to sign off on it. Now, most people, surprisingly, the uptick in employees that say, "Yeah, you could send me a text," is probably more than 90%. Rick: And they want that text because they want to hear like, "Hey, flight was delayed today. We don't need you until 10 o'clock." They don't want to come in at 8:00 in the morning, hang around and wait. So this communication apparatus helps us to get to that point. Deploying something like that, we did it seven years ago and we vetted iCIMS up against the big boys, which was Google and Microsoft at the time, and that was actually my project. We had a month to do it and to deploy, which is lightning fast when you're moving in a company of 500,000 employees. It takes a long time to turn a battleship around. We didn't have that because they wanted this immediately in the operations. So, we went out, we did a small proof of concept, and the reason that we chose them, and I'll go back to, sometimes it's the salesperson. Rick: So, there was a girl that worked there at the time, and whatever we threw at her, she said, "Yeah, we can do that." And that was the reason. So when I stood and asked for the money to fund this, that was one of the things that came up. It was like, really, you're choosing virtually a startup. It's not one of the big behemoths in the room, and you're gonna vet that this is the company that's gonna provide us with this texting service. Why is that the case? And then I said, "Because every question that came out of every person, they were either going to make changes to make it happen, or they were gonna push it forward," and that's why we ended up where we are today. Joel: I'm shocked that a salesperson said that the company's product could do anything. That's a really rare... Never. Chad: Never happens. That never happens. Joel: Really rare occurrence. So seven years of SMS. How have you scaled that? How much is automation versus they're actually corresponding with a human being, and maybe future features, what are you looking at? Rick: Yeah, so the original deployment started, so a learning curve, right? Having never deployed anything like that, I had to make a manual for what we call the center operation. So in every building, there is an HR assigned human being that now can text all these different centers and all these a hundred thousand people, and each person is put into a different vertical. The manual that we had put together was actually 22 steps to onboard them. So we had one page per step. It was kind of ironic because we deployed it a week later. Our C-level executives were touring a facility and they asked someone like, "Oh, okay, is there any improvements?" And that person whipped out this 22-page instruction manual for how to onboard and they were like, "Yeah, it'd be great if you could get rid of this." Rick: So, ironically, that next Monday, someone was standing in my desk and telling me, "Really?" And I really... It was great because I had no idea that we even had people that could do that at UPS. So we ran fast into the fire, we had a solution, we fixed that. We got all that up and running. But back then, the way that we onboarded everyone and got it working was still UPS internal applications. So nowadays, that right there is all what we call Birthright. So, if you're a UPS employee, you have access to the tool. So that piece of automation in the background and how we make that happen, kind of smooth everything over. Rick: Now, with that, as we deployed and began to text, there were other applications in UPS that send messages or wanna send messages that began to see added value. So they said, "Well, we wanna communicate with our employees too. How are we gonna do it to make their their life better? And we want to communicate through." So while HR started spearheading it, and they were using it to onboard these 105,000 UPSers for our peak season, there were other opportunities that came up too that now the product has grown because there's other messaging opportunities out there beyond HR. Chad: What are they? What are you guys currently using them for? Rick: So even for package tracking incidents. So, say that there's a problem with a belt system, a conveyor belt system. That automated system now has the ability to text directly to the person where it is the location so they can go in and expedite the repair of that system. That's one example, but there's numerous ones on that side of it. Chad: Wow. So early indicators on what's broken and what needs fixed? Rick: Exactly. Chad: Very nice. Okay. So, first and foremost, I've heard two things thus far. The C-suite in operations, when they say something, it moves. It doesn't take the Titanic to turn. You're a speedboat at that point. So my point is, and this is pretty much I would say standard in just about any operation that's out there. C-Suite says something, you're on it. So why is it in, in your 22 plus years of being in this industry, Rick, why is it that TA doesn't build a business case for the C-suite and operations every single time they want something? 'Cause that seems to be the answer. Not that they're gonna get everything, but if they continue to be the squeaky wheel with great business cases, why wouldn't we do that more often? Rick: So, I think for UPS, we do. When our C-suite comes out and they ask for something, the UPSers that I've worked with through the years, we always deliver on what their ask is. Chad: I get it. I get it. Rick: And then, as far as the operations goes, so most of us understand that the only reason that we are still here is because that driver has the ability to pick the box up from point A to deliver to point B. So without him, then you wouldn't need me. So at the end of the day, the operations is our golden ticket, and we need to treat them with the respect that they deserve. And when they ask for things, it's a matter of finding it. We don't expect them to have the technical acumen or to have the HR presence to know what they need. They just know that they need. So when they do present those challenges, I think that's when UPSers really come through to shine through. As example, recently there was a pending teamster strike. That was during a contract negotiation, and everyone was talking about that. Rick: On the backend side, the UPSers that were internally, we were preparing for how do we make adjustments in the case that that does happen. What do we need to do? And there was training going on and people were preparing. These things were done to secure the fact that the company was still gonna be there. UPS just had their anniversary, 116 years old. We wanna all make sure that we're still there and we're providing for our customers, because that's what we do best. Joel: Did I hear a dad joke out of Rick? Chad: Yes. Yeah, of course you did. Joel: Nice one. Chad: You always deliver. Yeah, you didn't even get it, Rick. You didn't even get it. I mean, come on. Rick: I'm in the industry. Chad: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, the point to me is that you guys in talent acquisition, you understand the business. 'cause you have to understand the business because, again, you have to deliver. Is that really the underlying thought process that you have? Rick: Yeah, I mean, if the operations tells us that they need to have X number of human beings employed during a peak season, they have an estimate of volume and how many packages, then the HR teams need to get together and make sure that that happens. Chad: So let's talk about calculus here. Knowing what the estimates were going to be, 'cause I'm sure you guys work with logistics and operations, and then knowing that a truck or a position that's open in a truck not working costs the organization money. Have you guys done the calculus to actually say, "Hey, look, that position, if it's open for this amount of time, it costs X per day of downtime? Have you done that so that you can take that business dollar sign to operations and to the C-suite and say, "Look, if we don't get faster automation and/or technology to be able to make sure that we get people in place, we're losing X amount of money per day. Nobody wants that." Are you guys doing that calculus internally? Rick: So that's exactly how a lot of things are driven within UPS. So, how do we budget for the future? How do we budget to prepare for automation? And we do that by presenting it in a way that says, this is the possible loss or this is the loss, or, and this is gonna fill the gap. We do that every single day. I don't know what it was that drove the texting portion of it. I don't know what the metrics were, but you're also talking about a company that routes are calculated to the point where there's no left turns, because left turns waste time, sitting at a light. Everything's right turn. So if we're gonna take that to that degree, you could just imagine when it comes to human capital and how we're going to work those resources in too. Chad: So that being said, do you have your own, instead of Google Maps for navigating, do you have like a UPS maps that does not allow left turns? Rick: So, I don't wanna say it doesn't allow, because the driver is the driver, and there may be a reason that he has to make that left turn as opposed to the right, and they know their routes probably better than most of us do. But yeah, UPS for decades has had their own version of Google Maps with their own mathematicians doing the calculations on all that. Joel: So trucking, UPS in particular, have been in the news a lot lately, and I'm just curious about, one, your take, but also what it's meant to candidate flow for quality, quantity, et cetera. So one thing that Chad and I talked about a few weeks ago was Yellow Trucking, 100-year company almost, I think 30,000 drivers. Company went bankrupt. What has that meant to your candidate flow? And also, you mentioned the labor negotiations at UPS. They make great headlines, the $170,000 a year. I got to think that some truckers got wind of that and that increased traffic quite a bit. How have you handled it? What's been the response? Has it been good? Has it been like over hyped and the flow isn't what you think it is? Talk about trucking in the news and what it's meant to UPS recruiting. Rick: So yeah, Yellow Trucking, so that's a little bit different envelope than what UPS does. We do have a portion of over the road trucking. However, that's not our primary business. So LTL trucking is handled differently. With that, a lot of those drivers do a different type of job, and that's more of a senior position at UPS that's kind of earned over time. However, that doesn't mean that those drivers wouldn't look to join UPS now, especially like you said, with a more attractive package overall, salary plus other opportunities. But I think a lot of that was driven by volume. So if Yellow was down on volume, that volume's gonna get spread out to the other LTL carriers, and then those LTL carriers will either pick up the volume plus the drivers, and then hopefully, they'll be able to pick up some more work in that area. Chad: You're talking about different skill sets to some... I mean, you're talking about package delivery versus over the road driver, right? Rick: Yeah. Joel: So I'll let you out on this. Chad and I have been talking about driverless trucks, drones delivering packages for a long time and it never seems to happen. Just curious about your take. How much longer do we have to wait for the Terminator to deliver my whiskey delivery? Rick: So, I do know a few years ago that UPS does have an over the road project working from, I wanna say California to Texas and through Arizona that was driverless with a third party company. I don't know where that is today, but I mean, drones in the sky and delivering packages, I don't know that we necessarily will be there in the next 20 or 30 years. I don't see the added value. I know UPS has done some great things with drone deliveries in remote locations. I saw a video years ago where we delivered vaccines in Africa via drones to areas that normally a driver just couldn't get to. So, there is an application for everything. We might not see it in New York City, but travel the world and eventually you're run into everything. Chad: Yeah, all I have to do is watch the videos of the Uber Eats drones getting bashed on the sidewalks all over the place to know that's probably not a great deal. So Rick, where can people find you? Obviously you're not on LinkedIn, so if they want to connect with you, maybe you just don't connect with Rick. I don't know. That's okay. But if people do want to connect with you, where would you send them? Rick: So, you could just email me right at UPS. My UPS email is rkoerner@ups.com. Joel: And odd fact, no packages were delivered to my home during the recording of this podcast. Chad: And that never happens. Joel: Which is a very, very rare thing, my friend. Rick: You haven't met my wife who clearly keeps package delivery a business. Joel: Oh, I can go toe to toe with any wife, with my wife. Trust me. Rick, thanks for joining us. Chad, that's another one in the can. We out. Chad: We out. Outro: This has been the Firing Squad. Be sure to subscribe to the Chad and Cheese Podcast so you don't miss an episode. And if you're a startup who wants to face the firing squad, contact the boys at chadcheese.com today. That's www.C-H-A-D-C-H-E-E-S-E.com.

Looking for an episode as spicy as Nashville hot chicken sandwich? Then you’ve come to the right place. Heading into Day Two of Recfest, the boys keep things tight this week, thanks largely to hangovers and healing vocal cords. Topics include a rundown of Recfest, parties hosted by yours truly and insights into all things Nash-Vegas. There is news too, however, and the boys are covering stories from Grindr (yep, they’re back on the pod), Uber taking on TaskRabbit and a certain CEO in Australia saying the things about workers that all other CEOs are thinking. Grab some BBQ sauce, pour a glass of Jack and enjoy this week’s show. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps support and educate your workforce through disability awareness and inclusion training. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's Most Dangerous Podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. [music] Joel Cheeseman: Oh yeah. It's National Double Cheeseburger Day. But when you're in Nashville it's Double Hot Chicken Day. You are listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. This is your co-host, Joel, pass the sweet tea, Cheeseman. Chad Sowash: And this is Chad, someone get me a fucking aspirin, Sowash. Joel Cheeseman: And on this week's abbreviated show from RecFest, CEOs get quiet, Grindr is back on the show and Uber chases a rabbit. Let's do this. [laughter] Joel Cheeseman: And my voice is tore up. Chad Sowash: Feeling it, feeling it, feeling it. Joel Cheeseman: Too many parties, yeah, shouting over everybody. Geez. [laughter] Chad Sowash: There's been a lot of shouting. Joel Cheeseman: And it's not over. We got one more to do man. The pontoon booze cruise tonight. Chad Sowash: Yeah, I don't think that one's gonna be as loud. There's not gonna be a band on board. Joel Cheeseman: There is. Well, not a band but we have music. Yeah. Chad Sowash: Okay. Music's fine. Joel Cheeseman: Yeah, music. Everyone signed waivers. It could get ugly, dude. I don't know what's gonna happen. [laughter] Chad Sowash: It's gonna get ugly. Joel Cheeseman: This may be the last episode that you'll ever hear. Chad Sowash: It's gonna be ugly, yes. So three and a half hour drive down, we did the Tin Roof with Aaron app and with our friends over at Plum. We had about 40 people, 65 on the wait list who were literally in the bar. We had like this little roped off section. Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. Chad Sowash: And that just went completely off the rails after that. It was just like too many people. So just come on. Come on, come and enjoy. Joel Cheeseman: Yeah, yeah. It was wild. I mean I don't think it's too ambitious to say that the two best parties that are gonna happen at this show are ours. [laughter] Joel Cheeseman: I don't think that's too ambitious. I really don't. Chad Sowash: No, no. We actually had people leave another party that was happening while ours was happening, and they came to ours, and they were like... Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. A corporate party. Chad Sowash: Yeah. They were like that one was pretty lame. This is fucking rocking. Like well, we're on Broadway. We got hot chicken, free booze, again. Joel Cheeseman: Oh, hot Chicken, we have hot chicken lollipops dude, come on. Chad Sowash: Yes. Joel Cheeseman: Doesn't get any better than that. Chad Sowash: Little Plum love all the way through man. And then Dina Piro, as soon as we show up she starts rubbing my nose and beating me on the first week of fantasy football. Don't worry Dina, it's a... Joel Cheeseman: Oh, I can't believe you brought up fantasy football, for the mere fact that you're in last place. [laughter] Chad Sowash: Yeah. Joel Cheeseman: And you scored the lowest amount of points by a lot. Oh, man. Chad Sowash: In both my leagues. I didn't hit a hundred points in either fucking league, dude. It was a bad week. It was bad. Joel Cheeseman: Yeah, yeah. I got beat, but I'm happy with my team. I had like 130 or 40 points. [laughter] Look anyone that has the team that I played is gonna be tough to beat. There's a receiver in Miami who's pretty good. I don't know if you've heard of him? Chad Sowash: Yeah. Joel Cheeseman: Yeah, he's pretty good. But it's week one. It's a long season Chad, you can flip that last place to first place. Chad Sowash: Day one of RecFest though was beautiful. It was about 80 degrees. We're gonna go ride the bull today. Okay, we couldn't yesterday. We were on stage pretty much all day yesterday. But that was, it was a great time. I kept hearing from people, I was like, What did you like about today's show? And they kept talking about I'm hearing new perspectives. Which is really weird, because they we go to so many shows. But getting RecFest into kind of like the groove here, into the mix here. There is gonna be new perspectives, new ways that people present just being at RecFest, versus all the other shows, which they all have their own personality. And that was really cool. And there are a lot of Europeans here by the way. Joel Cheeseman: Do they have their own personalities though? Chad Sowash: I think so. Joel Cheeseman: I mean most of the conferences I go to the setup is pretty similar. Like go to a session, go get coffee in the expo hall... Chad Sowash: The voices are different though, don't you think? Joel Cheeseman: What I'm saying is RecFest is unique not just in the voices. Chad Sowash: Oh, yeah. Joel Cheeseman: And I don't think that those shows are that different. In fact I would say one of the major selling points of RecFest is it's not HR Tech, it's not SHRM talent, it's not the typical conference. And we knew that going in 'cause we had experience in London. But Americans, this is their first time. And we asked a sellout standing room only session that we had, who's been here before. It was about three or four. Like who's been in Knebworth? And there are very few hands that went up. Chad Sowash: Nobody, yeah. Joel Cheeseman: So this is gonna be new to a lot of Americans that are coming over. You're right. Weather's great. I think Nashville no one's owned it. I think it's a great hip town. I know we've talked politically that it's a little bit of a minefield, but we've talked like name us a state in America where nobody... Chad Sowash: There's no such thing. Joel Cheeseman: No one's gonna get pissed off. Chad Sowash: There is no such thing. Joel Cheeseman: Until we starred in some conferences in Bangor, Maine, which should be great for our show 'cause it'd be great one-liners, but until we have the Bangor, Maine conference, you're not gonna go anywhere in America where someone's not gonna get pissed off. Chad Sowash: No. No. And I mean Nashville is very diverse. Yes, Tennessee is, it's got its problems. Hell, Texas, Florida... Joel Cheeseman: Florida. Chad Sowash: I mean all the different states that you would even think, Denver, right? Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. Chad Sowash: That you would think that you would want to go to. You're always gonna find problems. Just find where your vibe is. And I'm telling you man, this is a RecFest town. Joel Cheeseman: I agree. I agree. Now, in terms of differences I wanna know your, get your take on what you saw that was different. So one, few things I need, I think they need to work on. So I asked about the Ferris wheel. Apparently with the Ferris wheel you have to drive huge nails into the ground, and there's like a water duct or something under the... Chad Sowash: Irrigation system. Joel Cheeseman: They were like, We would flood the whole city of Nashville if we put in the the bolts and whatever for the Ferris wheel. Also Ferris wheels in America are a lot more expensive than they are in England for whatever reason. Chad Sowash: Not surprising. Joel Cheeseman: Like 10x, 10x the cost. So they realize the visual aesthetic that a Ferris wheel brings. And they're gonna try I think to do something in the future that's similar to that. The other thing is like the paid bar, the bar should be open like it is in England. I don't know what the differences were, so you had... Chad Sowash: Sponsor, they just need a sponsor on that. Yeah, I mean I think this is the first year. Joel Cheeseman: You had Hackajob... Here's, let me paint the visual. You had Hackajob giving out tokens for free drinks. Okay. So you had one line at the bar which was like 20 deep, and then you had three cash registers for the cash bar which no one was in. So you had this huge single file line for people with tokens. So you gotta figure out the free drinks. Get a sponsor, get everyone lushed up by between three and five o'clock, because most people left before the band started. There were two bands last night. And I think most people probably bounced before that. If you have the the skyline of Nashville behind your conference, that's cool. But it's also a lure to get people out of the conference into downtown Nashville. Chad Sowash: Broadway baby. Joel Cheeseman: When you're on a farm in England, you're not going anywhere anytime soon, you're kind of stuck there. [laughter] Chad Sowash: No. You are. Joel Cheeseman: So they kind of need to figure out how do we keep people there. Getting them lubricated with alcohol is one. And then kind of start the music early. Maybe get a DJ to get the vibe going. They need to figure that out. Chad Sowash: I think you have that, but you just use what you have here and that's Broadway, right? And maybe you cut it off a little bit early. You have some music that's playing, all that other fun stuff. But you tell people to go out and enjoy themselves on the town and they'll come back tomorrow, right? I mean just, you can't fight it. You can't fight the magnetic lure of Broadway. And you shouldn't, because that's what makes Nashville such a great I think event town to be in, so yeah. One thing I do have though is I think the vendors that we see in London, they really put together like the games and I mean they really go all out. The vendors are gonna have to step it up here in the US, right? They are just not making muster like they do from the London show. It was funny 'cause Plum, I think they probably had the most traffic, because every female in the place wanted to go get their hair braided, get their hair done, get a little tinsel in it or something like that. And it was like that was like a huge draw. But we're used to like games and fun and all this stuff all over the place. There was that. It just was muted compared to that of London. Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. I don't know how you get the... Some vendor needs to step up, Hackajob in London had the double decker booth, the exclusive party on top, the mixologist, someone needs to step up in that way so everyone follows suit, but yeah, the vendors need to get on it. This is not HR tech, this is not hangout in the exhibit hall. This is a party and the vendors have a big part in that. So you took the words right out of my mouth. The vendors need to step it up for next year. Chad Sowash: Yeah. Well, and I gotta give it to Hackajob because they're going to be the booze cruise sponsor. They're the ones powering the booze cruise. So what they lacked in their double decker on the actual event, they're making it up for the booze cruise. But yes, we definitely wanna see that ratcheted up. Joel Cheeseman: Yeah, no doubt. No doubt. We'll see you next year RecFest for sure wherever you are, we will be here. Allegedly 1,200 people got tickets, and they're hoping to ratchet that up to maybe 15, 1,600 next year. I think that's easy. I think this will go up to two. There's just too much FOMO, too much word of mouth, too much stuff going on. People will continue to to show up. Chad Sowash: Oh, easy. Easy. Joel Cheeseman: And these changes will be made. So if it's not obvious we're slightly hungover. I'm enjoying a coffee. If you're watching on YouTube Chad is wearing sunglasses. This is going to be an abbreviated show. We're nixing the birthdays, we're nixing the regular shoutouts, we're nixing the fantasy football leaderboard. Chad Sowash: We'll get back to it, kids. Joel Cheeseman: And anything else that you're used to, but yeah, enjoy this shortened show. Actually I need the news soundbite for that, don't I? Let's try this again. [music] Chad Sowash: Topics. Oh, you had it. Okay, I get it, okay. Joel Cheeseman: I had it, I had it. I just pushed the wrong button. Chad Sowash: No, no, it's good. Joel Cheeseman: Hang over, hang over. Like I said, hang over. Okay. Chad Sowash: I get it. I get it. Joel Cheeseman: I wanna push the step bro sound bite so bad but I don't. Okay, so quick update before we get to topics Chad, we called it, we called it. What's up? Chad Sowash: Yeah, no. Deel, this is from the information who actually we were talking about last week, Deel who is embroiled in a government crackdown on online trading sites have paused providing payout services to several businesses in that category as it conducts a review of their operations. End quote. Yes, we called it. These types of "trading companies" represent less than 1% of Deel's revenue. So it's best for optics and business. And remember to all those startups out there, we know you're moving fast. And sometimes like in this case you break shit. The key is cleaning up your mess after breaking. And that's what Deel is doing right now. So kudos to Deel. Joel Cheeseman: Yep, yep. No doubt. Look they were highlighted in the Information, which is a subscription only online publication. Very influential. They're typically writing stories about Google and Facebook. The fact that Deel was in this was a big deal. Rippling, a competitor followed suit and said we're nixing all these prop trading firms from our portfolio. Deel followed suit, we called it. But it wasn't a real, it was kind of obvious that it was gonna happen. It happened quickly though. So kudos, kudos to Deel. Alright let's get to our first story. Chad Sowash: Oh, this is fun. Joel Cheeseman: This is mainly a soundbite that we're gonna play and comment on the other side. But I do want to give some context to this. This is Tim Gurner. Tim Gurner is CEO of the Gurner Group. So he probably owns the place or his dad did or something, there's some connection there. Chad Sowash: Yeah, probably. Joel Cheeseman: They're in Australia. They're an institutional grade private development design and lifestyle business, with a $10 billion portfolio that focuses on transforming landscapes and environments where people can live their best life. So basically it's a service for rich people to make them feel rich and remind them that they're rich, and probably have a lot of service people that work for them that cater to these rich folks. So we're gonna play the soundbite here and comment on the other side. Here we go. Tim Gurner: I think the problem that we've had is that we've, we have... People decided they didn't really wanna work so much anymore through Covid. And that has had a massive issue on productivity. You know trainees have definitely pulled back on productivity. You know they have been paid a lot to do not too much in the last few years. And we need to see that change. We need to see unemployment rise. Unemployment has to jump 40, 50% in my view. We need to see pain in the economy. We need to remind people that they work for the employer, not the other way around. I mean there's been a systematic change where employees feel the employer is extremely lucky to have them, as opposed to the other way around. So it's a dynamic that has to change. We've gotta kill that attitude, and that has to come through hurting the economy which is what the whole global... The world is trying to do. The governments around the world are trying to increase unemployment to get that to some sort of normality. And we're seeing it, I think every employer now is seeing it. I mean there is definitely massive layoffs going off. People might not be talking about it, but people are definitely laying people off. And we're starting to see less arrogance in the employment market. And that has to continue, 'cause that will cascade across the cost balance. SFX: Oh, fuck! Joel Cheeseman: Alright Chad, take a breath and let us know what you think about Mr. Gurner's comments. Chad Sowash: So I mean they're saying the quiet part out loud, and you know that every CEO is thinking this, right? Joel Cheeseman: Oh, yeah. Chad Sowash: It's just that some have much better optics and they're better at narrative. So here's the quote. You heard it. I'm gonna go over it again. We need to see unemployment rise. Unemployment has to jump 40 to 50% in my view. We need to see pain in the economy, end quote. We need to see pain in the economy. So those are his words. And now you know he isn't alone. He he didn't just conjure this up one day. This is what is talked about in rich people's circles. How do we get the peasants back in the fields? Pain. Pain is the answer. And let's get this straight. What pain actually is kids, unemployment rates rise. You don't have a job. No job. You go into poverty mode. Poverty equals pain, period. Right? And how do we strip the "arrogance" away from them? He's framing a living wage benefits, people wanting to be treated like humans as arrogance. Chad Sowash: And this is something that rich people have had the money to really prop up, with the likes of the Milton Freemans of the world over the years, right? To have these people as kind of like their voice boxes. Now, they're coming out and they're saying the quiet shit out loud. And this kids is what every single fucking board of directors is talking about right here. This is it. Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. You know I'm guessing the Gurner group is not publicly traded, because no public CEO would say some shit like this out loud. Chad Sowash: Doubtful. No. Joel Cheeseman: He's also Australian which mean he'd... Chad Sowash: He felt comfortable. Joel Cheeseman: Which means he survives 90% of the world's venomous animals. So he doesn't give a shit about what anybody says. [laughter] This is, let's be honest, the powers that be have hated the last two to three years. They've hated the power going over to labor. They've hated the work from home movement. The structure that they've gotten comfortable with of ownership and capital got screwed for the last two to three years. And they're taking it back. And this guy's comments are exactly what others are thinking. Look in case you missed it, Zoom, the work from home company is getting people back to the office. To me that's the quintessential sign that this shit is over. What is fascinating to me is that workers are somewhat fighting back. The UAW negotiations right now with with the auto workers, which I think is gonna be really tough for them, because of something called Mexico, and Mexico is opening up manufacturing with cars. Joel Cheeseman: I know I think Mercedes and Volkswagen have just opened up some facilities in Mexico. That's gonna be a nuclear option that I think Ford and GM can use. Popular culture. You have a song called Rich Men North of Richmond that if you haven't heard it, take a listen. It's basically about the rich fuckers that are screwing us over and the workers' opinion of that. Ultimately rich people have money and poor people have votes. And the sad truth is like no politician on either side is really talking about workers and labor unions and cutting off Mexico or making it painful to do. We're stuck in this rut of talking about indictments, ageism, you name it. And maybe that's what the power structure wants. They want us kinda looking over here and not thinking about the real issues of workers and poverty and things like that. So this guy said it. Everyone is thinking it on the power end of things. And unfortunately unless people vote and put in people that are gonna protect their jobs, the money is gonna win here. And data says young people don't vote. Most people don't vote enough and money's gonna win if they don't vote. Period. Chad Sowash: Yeah. But I think they can vote with their feet too. We'll talk about that at Grindr in a minute. But, the UAW they've actually talked about how the CEO got a 40% raise. And that was a fuck you to the employees, right? Especially after the employees and the union, literally, they capped salaries during COVID, during the hard times, right? So they capped and they kept everything low because they knew that there was a problem and they wanted to help out the car companies. And then guess what? The car companies stab them in the fucking back. The CEO takes a 40% fucking increase, right? And the funny part is we talk about the Rich men North of Richmond. Again, it's a division kind of a thing. What about the Rich men South of Richmond? What about the Rich men East and West of Richmond? This is all a ploy in trying to get the peasants to fight each other. I mean, it just, it drives me fucking crazy. And the horrible part is, what he's saying is true. The tools of government have to deal with inflation, with literally caveman like... I mean, they're using rocks and scissors for god's sakes. Raise interest rates. Well, who does that hurt? Does it hurt an asshole like this? No, it hurts people trying to buy cars, buy homes, you know, the common people shit. Joel Cheeseman: Milk, eggs, bread. Yeah. Chad Sowash: Yes. Instead of cracking down on the other side of the inflation problem with investigations on companies gouging. It's pretty simple. Just look at those companies quarterly profits and the calls where they are bragging about over-inflated profits. We aren't doing what we should to be able to ensure that these assholes like this understand that he's not the one doing the work. The people on the line are doing the work. They deserve pay, they deserve living wages. And another quote from The Guardian, which you will love, he's engaging in the ancient neoliberal habit of dehumanizing working people. It's almost like that guy who came down the escalator and called Mexicans murderers and rapists. Right? Breed division among the non-rich people. And then allow the peasants to fight it out themselves while assholes like this Watch from the safety of the ivory tower. It just, it drives me crazy. And the thing is, fucking people listening to this whole Rich men North of Richmond thing, they like that, that fear and that conflict. And it's like, guys, you're fighting the wrong motherfuckers. Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. It's also fascinating in regards to leverage that workforces have, like we talked about the UPS drivers. People need packages. There's not a lot of competition to do that. Car companies, you have the EV revolution. You have a car company in Tesla that is not unionized. So it's not, it's not a level playing field, whereas it is for the UPS workers. So, this dynamic is gonna play out. And if you have leverage, you do. If you don't get your ass back to work, you're lucky to have a job is basically the mentality. Chad Sowash: Well, that's the mentality. The problem is if jobs remain plentiful in the market, there's nothing they can do about it, other than do the stupid shit and lose great talent, and then say that that great talent was arrogant. So they left. They weren't arrogant. They just wanted fairness. That's all they're asking for. And watching, again, UAW CEO getting a 40% raise, while all the workers who are doing the hard backbreaking fucking work, they agreed to keep their wages low and now they want a piece of their own. And I get it, man. Joel Cheeseman: Yep. Yep. It's going to Mexico. And mark my words, you're gonna hear political rhetoric around anti Mexico, or like cut Mexico off from these jobs. I think you're gonna hear that in 2024. We'll see. Chad Sowash: Yeah. It's not gonna be focused on any CEOs or boards or any of that shit. Joel Cheeseman: It's Mexico's fault. Chad Sowash: It's all gonna be the little people. All the little people, baby. Joel Cheeseman: Oh, man. I love that this is a theme show. This is like dark side of the moon. The whole theme is on this whole thing. Chad Sowash: It is. Joel Cheeseman: So we'll be right back, and holy shit, Grindr is back on the show everybody. Chad Sowash: Again. Joel Cheeseman: I know. Alright Chad, Grindr is back on the show, Chad. Grindr's return to office policy led to nearly half of its staff leaving. I'll say that again. Half of the staff leaving, the policy required employees to relocate to designated hub cities or leave with severance following a unionization effort. Grindr United Union filed unfair labor charges after 80 plus workers faced forced resignations due to a return to office policy following unionization alleging retaliation and silencing by the company. Remaining staff continues organizing. Chad, your take on Grindr news. Chad Sowash: Have employers just lost their fucking minds? I mean, and not to mention Grindr is wanting now to try to start helping other companies with their hiring. Right? But they can't even get their own fucking house in order. Many of these workers who you'd actually said, they were hired to be remote workers, and now they're being forced to relocate. Is this a layoff in disguise? Could be, because they probably know that most of these remote workers are literally just gonna go ahead and take the severance. Right? And they're gonna say, well, didn't align with corporate culture. It was really just a layoff. Right? It was really a layoff. But even if this is a layoff tactic, you can't expect to know who's going to eject and who's gonna stay. And if you're getting rid of great top talent, I mean, this is just not how business is done. Chad Sowash: Companies thought that they had a productivity problem before. This is just gonna exacerbate that problem. Low productivity has little to nothing to do with remote work. On the contrary, remote workers work more, the productivity problem lands squarely on the shoulders of leadership. They're losing people left and right. They can't fill positions fast enough. And the staff that have stayed behind are stretched way too thin, and they're doing everybody else's job who left. Right? So you are having a productivity problem, has nothing to do with the people working remotely, has to do with your stupid ass leaders who are playing these control issue games. Joel Cheeseman: I blame Elon Musk. Elon laid off 80% of the tech support staff at X Twitter. And by most accounts hasn't lost a lot in terms of serviceability. At least that is the popular sentiment. Other big tech companies followed suit. And now we're seeing the Grindrs of the world. The app makers of the world follow suit. However, people hate the headline layoffs. They can avoid the headline of layoffs if they do this bullshit, if they say, we're back to the office. You gotta live in these hub cities. Sorry, I don't know if they offered relocation. Probably not. Just said, Hey, the party's over. You need to live, within a certain radius of a hub or a headquarters. And this is a very popular strategy. We're seeing this on a regular basis. It's very convenient. People just leave. You don't have, I mean, they're paying them severance, which is great, but a lot of companies aren't. Joel Cheeseman: They're saying, good luck. Thanks for playing. And in the process, they get to reduce headcount. They make shareholders happy because they're following Elon's lead of being a much leaner tech company. And this is what you get. So the good news is startups are getting money. I mean, I look at the news every day, not just for employment, but who's getting money. Like we predicted, AI is gonna create so many more opportunities. A lot of these people are gonna start their own companies, their own apps. It's gonna be painful in the short term, but I think heading into next year, we're gonna see some exciting companies, some really great Startups that couldn't afford the talent that was working at Facebook and Apple. They're gonna start bringing these folks in, making them owners of the company. And we're gonna see some really exciting things happen. There's just gonna be a lot of pain for the next six to 12 months for a lot of workers. Chad Sowash: Well, and we've talked about it. Those companies, the Facebook, the fan companies, they over-hired, they were literally trying to starve the market because they had so much fucking capital. Right? They're trying to, and this is, if you have the money, if you were a rich company like a Facebook or a Google, something like that, your profit margins are such that you can waste cash, right? And starving the market, your competitors of great talent is a way to do that. It shouldn't be legal, but how are you gonna fucking enforce something like that, right? But that's what's happened. And I agree a hundred percent. These people are gonna come back in the market. They're gonna work for startups, they're going to, they're gonna start their own companies. And we're just gonna see a lot of innovation come out of it. Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. So our buddy at VanHack, Ilia, who's a big fan of the show, and I know he is listening for sure. Hi, Ilia. Talked to him. His job is to basically, bring tech talent and companies together, focused in Canada, which we all love. But he commented that he believed August was like the bottom in terms of hiring tech, and he thinks that from here on out, not necessarily hockey stick, but it's gonna trend up significantly. And I think, our sentiment, reflects that. So good times ahead, hopefully. And yeah, there's gonna be some real exciting stuff, I think in terms of new companies. Chad Sowash: Well, and you've got this other asshole that we were just talking about who was like, we need pain in the market. You've got Marc Benioff who told MSNBC, "I'm a remote worker. I've always been a remote worker. My whole life. I don't work well in office. It just doesn't work for my, with my personality." We're going to see companies, some companies continue to treat their employees like adults, right? They're going to hold their feet to the fire with project deadlines, with goals, with all these things that we all as adults understand. And if we don't meet those marks, then we have the opportunity to get our ass fired. Right? But if we overachieve those, again, we're giving the people that we hired, we trusted them, we hiring them, we trust them in our company. Now we have to just allow them to do their work. And the problem is, most of these iron fist CEOs and management that's out there, they don't know how to manage this, they don't know how to manage it. And that is a problem of management and leadership, not of the employees. Joel Cheeseman: Right. You know, there were a lot of tools early on that were supposed to solve this whole engagement and tracking and monitoring. Apparently they're not working as well as they promised. My hope is that all the new startups that are founded by these folks commit to remote work. Like they've been burned. Like they're gonna commit to not being in an office or having an office. And I think we're headed towards a two class company society where you're either, you're in the office or you're not. And we'll see, we'll see who wins that as it shakes out. Chad Sowash: Well, I think there's a hybrid variable that's there too, where you allow somebody to actually say, Hey, look, when are you gonna come again? Cummins Engine Company in Columbus, Indiana, they have, they downsized their footprint from an office space standpoint. And you have specific days that you check in to say that I'm going to come into the office to work. Right? So that they know that they have enough space, there's a space management, those types of things. But they trust their employees enough as adults to say, look, when do you wanna come in? You know when, you know when your meetings are, you know when you should be in the office to do these things. And then when you don't, it's just, and that's been happening for years with Cummins. Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. I think we have to get to some resolution to what work, like back to the office is, or return to office. 'Cause to me hybrid is back to the office. If I have to go to the office two, three days a week, that means I have to live within an area that I can get to the office. Chad Sowash: Yeah. I agree. Joel Cheeseman: Remote work to me is, my company is in Chicago, but I have a van and I just travel the country and set up shop at Airbnbs. Like, to me, that's remote work. If you go to the office at all, unless it's like, oh, once a month, we're gonna fly you into town and you're gonna work from the office. Like, to me, that's not remote work. So anyway, resolution in terms of what office is, office is at least one day a week that you have to be in an office. You're not a remote worker. Chad Sowash: Yeah. If it's a mandate. Yes. I agree a hundred percent. Because if you can just, let's say for instance, I do work close to the office, but I do, like you said, I go to Portugal, work out of my place there, or an Airbnb, somewhere on the East Coast or West Coast or something like that. If I have the flexibility to do those things, that to me, again, the autonomy as an employee, as an adult, I think that that to me constitutes, remote work. But yes, if there's a mandate that you have to come into the office one time a week or what have you. Yeah. That is more of a return to office. Joel Cheeseman: Right. Right. Maybe Uber will save us all. When we get back... Chad Sowash: Oh, Jesus. Joel Cheeseman: News out of Uber. Chad, have you taken an Uber since you've been here in Nashville? Chad Sowash: Lyft. I've taken Lyft. Joel Cheeseman: Lyft, much cheaper. Yes. I cost compare. Chad Sowash: Yes. Joel Cheeseman: And Lyft always is cheaper, so if you can do it, Lyft tends to be the selection. Anyway, rideshare app Uber is reportedly working on a service similar to TaskRabbit, allowing users to hire people for various tasks beyond driving and food deliveries. The potential new service code named Chore was discovered in the hidden code of Uber's iPhone app. Users can hire a tasker for a minimum of one hour. Specify the task duration and preferred arrival time, and the app will calculate the cost based on the task's time requirement. Chad, what's your take on Uber taking it to the rabbit? Chad Sowash: The quest for Uber's continual profitability, you know, profitability, they're just trying everything. Let's throw everything at the wall and see what we can do. But I do believe an app like this, if it's done right, could kill companies like Thumbtack, Angi, and other service apps. Because again, many people use Uber. I know that when we're in a city somewhere, Julie will get Uber Eats if we just don't want to go out, right? So that is an add-on service. But if Uber really wants to do this, I think they buy a Thumbtack or an Angi or something like that so that they have all that contractor or gig base that's automatically there. And it's just add water and you put this app pulled together. And it's just a much easier way to do what Angi and the Thumbtacks of the world have been doing for years. And I mean, that's literally, it's just, it's lead gen is all they do. It's lead gen. This could be more than that, which I think would be really cool. Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. TaskRabbit has the benefit of being owned, by IKEA, oddly enough. Chad Sowash: IKEA, yeah. Joel Cheeseman: We talked about that a few years ago. If you've never put together an IKEA couch, you know a little help can go a long way. Which I think was the precipice for, IKEA buying this app. Chad Sowash: YouTube, IKEA and Ryan Reynolds. So YouTube, IKEA and Ryan Reynolds. Fucking hilarious. Go ahead. Sorry. Joel Cheeseman: I have no idea what you're talking about. I'll google it later. Chad Sowash: Oh, it's hilarious. Joel Cheeseman: But these are mostly fringe companies, their kind of features, I guess. I don't think any of them, Thumbtack, Angi, are public companies. So Yeah, they seem... Chad Sowash: Angi was, I don't know if they... Joel Cheeseman: Angi was. There was Angi's list and then it... Chad Sowash: 'Cause they were acquired. Yeah, they were acquired. Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. So yeah, I don't... It's not my lane, but I don't think there's any takeoff success stories around this business. Look, Elon must have some serious envy about Uber, because Uber is what I think Elon wants X to be, sort of an everything app. I need something delivered. I need a ride. I need... By the way, I love scooters, Nashville full of scooters. I'm on scooter, scooter alert, everybody if you're driving the streets in Nashville. So they're becoming this sort of, whatever I need, I can go to this "super app" and get it. And to me, it makes perfect sense that they would add this option. I think any contractor they already know about Uber, they're gonna put their profile in there and we'll see can they strangle Angi out of business? Joel Cheeseman: Can they strangle the Thumbtacks out of business? I guess we'll see. But I think that's Uber's goal. I think they just wanna suffocate everybody to where they're the only player and we go to them for all of our shit that we want, all of our conveniences. And this makes perfect sense. So how many drivers become furniture-put-together-ers? I don't know. There's gonna be some bleed over. But yeah, it's gonna be successful. People will see it when they get a ride. Like, Oh, now I can get someone to put my grill together on Uber, and I don't have to go to these other services. And by the way, Uber doesn't have to advertise like the other services do because it's so sort of ubiquitous with our daily lives and when we travel, so they don't have the marketing expenses that an Angi or a Thumbtack does. So yeah, I think it's a good move. If I'm Angi or the others, I'm thinking like, shit, what's our next move? What do we do now? Chad Sowash: I'm Thinking, let's put in a really good bid to get bought, to get acquired by Uber. 'Cause I mean, those companies are legacy. They're old style lead gen. I mean, this is something new. It's much better. They just need a database like an Angi, because they have like the plumbers and the carpenters and the handymen and all those guys. Will drivers do it? Maybe. But I mean, you don't want to like hang your hat on that. Right? You want a database of these people right out of the gate. So if they go full steam, hopefully we see an acquisition. Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. And I don't know who would buy some of those companies. I mean, they're so fragmented. They're so localized. It's sort of like Groupon, right? Like Groupon was huge locally, but like other services came along or are coming. So I don't know who would buy these guys. But that is an interesting, interesting notion. We'll keep our eye on it. But until then, Chad, my Uber is here to take me to RecFest for day two. I'm gonna get another cup of coffee. I'll see you on the booze cruise, my friend. Chad Sowash: Yes! Joel Cheeseman: We out. Chad Sowash: We out. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forward it to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could've used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell. Enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey, or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now, go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap, because you'll be back like an awful train wreck you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

What a start-up calls itself usually says a lot about it. It can also say a lot about its prospects for future success. Enter Skillit, a company that connects the supply of skilled workers with contractor demand in the $1.6 trillion annually construction industry through its platform for sourcing, skills assessment, hiring, and training. And you thought a name like Skillit would be serving Grand Slam breakfasts at your favorite brunch spot, didn’t you? Nope, and Fraser Patterson, founder and CEO of the company is on Firing Squad to tell you why he’s the next big thing? Hey, we’ll be the judge of that, pal. Listen and reveal Skillit’s fate. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. Intro: Like Shark Tank? Then you'll love Firing Squad. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to put the recruiting industry's bravest, ballsiest and baddest start-ups through the gauntlet to see if they've got what it takes to make it out alive. Dig a foxhole and duck for cover, kids. The Chad and Cheese Podcast is taking it to a whole another level. Joel Cheesman: Oh yes, it's another Firing Squad, everybody. What's up? It's your favorite guilty pleasure... Chad Sowash: That was orgasmic. Joel Cheesman: AKA The Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheesman, and as always, the Barbie to my Ken, Mr. Chad Sowash... Chad Sowash: Yes, the sexy one. Joel Cheesman: Is on the line. And we are just excited. We got a Scot in the house, everybody. SFX: Welcome to all things Scottish. Our slogan is, "If it's not Scottish, it's crap!" Joel Cheesman: Let's welcome Fraser "Don't call him Fraser" Patterson, founder and CEO at Skillit. Fraser, welcome to the podcast. Fraser Patterson: Hey guys. Yeah, thanks for having me. Joel Cheesman: Good to have you here. Fraser Patterson: A little intro? Joel Cheesman: Yes. Fraser Patterson: So yeah, as you pointed out, I was born in Scotland, which you've made quite a thing of. Yeah, I grew up holding a tape measure, come from a construction family and was kind of pulled into construction, pushed into academia by a grandfather. I went to this Harry Potter-like boarding school in the north of Scotland and then made my way... No, no, literally. When I saw Harry Potter for the first time, I actually thought it was filmed in my boarding school. It's uncanny. It's like a facsimile. Chad Sowash: Holy shit. Fraser Patterson: And yeah, and fell in love with the math teacher and math and from there, I kind of became a carpenter. I was an apprentice. I was a journeyman carpenter, and I was also a math teacher and lecturer and researcher. So yeah, live in New York, married, kids, and love cooking and building startups. And I'm an extreme optimist with a passion for leading indicators of bad news. Chad Sowash: So you fell in love with a math teacher? Joel Cheesman: Yeah, that's another podcast. Chad Sowash: So yeah, you fell in love with a math teacher. Was she... Fraser Patterson: That actually just slipped out. [laughter] Chad Sowash: Did you marry the math teacher? Joel Cheesman: I bet it just slipped out. SFX: What are you doing, stepbro? Fraser Patterson: God, I appreciate that. I was in an all-boys school. Let's put it this way, mathematics was packaged well as a subject to me and I fell in love with the subject. Joel Cheesman: He just said "packaged". Fraser, by the way, has never heard our show. So he's in for quite a ride on this one. I gotta know, do Scots construct... Is there like a kilt and a tool belt combo that you can wear, is popular in Scotland? Fraser Patterson: Well, I mean, all Scots have got their own clan's tartan. So mine's a Patterson. There's an Anderson, which is my mom's maiden name. Joel Cheesman: But I can't go to the Home Depot equivalent in Scotland and get a tool kilt? Fraser Patterson: It's been a while, so... None of that was available when I was there. Joel Cheesman: This is going nowhere. Let's tell him what he's won, Chad. Chad Sowash: It's the dry Cheesman jokes that... Joel Cheesman: It works great on the weekly show. Chad Sowash: It should be great. Yeah, yeah. Okay, Fraser. Welcome to Firing Squad. This is how it's gonna play out. At the sound of the bell, there it is, you're gonna have two minutes to pitch Skillit. At the end of those two minutes, we're gonna hit you up with 20 minutes or so of Q&A. Be sure to be concise or you're going to get the "crickets". That just means tighten your game up. At the end of Q&A, you're gonna receive one of three of these: Either big applause, "Skillit serves up a full course Michelin-rated meal. Talent and companies will be hungry for this platform baby." A golf clap. [applause] Chad Sowash: "We're gonna need a new chef and sous chef because Skillit is leaving a bad taste in our mouth." And last but never least, the firing squad. "Instead of Skillit, you should kill it. Get back into the kitchen 'cause you're gonna need to cook something else up." That's the Firing Squad. Are you ready? Fraser Patterson: Brutal. Love it. Yeah, ready. Joel Cheesman: Alright, Laser, I mean Fraser, your pitch starts in... Fraser Patterson: Yeah. So Skillit is building the world's first data-driven, skilled labor recruiting platform for the construction industry. So we provide mid-market and enterprise contractors with really easy access to a rapidly growing network of the nation's best craft workers, so like carpenters, electricians, plumbers, concrete workers, and a suite of tools that are basically purpose-built to make craft recruitment radically easier and faster and smarter for their recruiting team. So we do this by collecting data across hundreds of variables from each and every worker directly. We don't scrape data, this comes right from the worker, everything from trade experience, skills, qualifications, attitude, desired pay, even their future moving plans. And this gives employers for the first time, accurate, full 360-degree understanding of a craft worker, but it also means they can actually find and hire the best employees that they're looking for. Fraser Patterson: It also enables us to build powerful software that automates a lot of the rote work that craft recruiters have to do every day. So that frees them up to do more important stuff and be the hero of their organization, if you will. Today, we're laser-focused on solving our customer's biggest hair-on-fire problem, the skilled labor crisis, so sourcing skilled labor. And we're doing that by becoming America's best matchmaker to craft labor and employers. But the big vision here is use this proprietary data set that we're building and this digital infrastructure to really train and upskill our talent network so they become increasingly important to our employers. And if we can achieve that, then I think we can make skilled labor one of the greatest assets on earth and actually increase the quality and quantity of skilled labor in the world. And that way, I think, we can achieve our housing and infrastructure and clean energy goals. Joel Cheesman: We'll take it. We'll take it. Alright, Fraser, it's already been touched upon. We're recording this right around lunch time, or I am at least. And when I hear Skillit, I think of the grand slam breakfast at Denny's, but that's a different episode altogether. How did you come up with the name? Was it a hard decision? I mean, I get it as I look at it. What was the number two name that you were going with that lost out? Talk about how you came up with the brand. Fraser Patterson: There wasn't a number two name. So August 2019, I took a vacation with my family. I was exhausted and I was basically... I built this vertically integrated GC in New York and we were struggling to hire craft labor, so carpenters and general labor. And while I was thinking about how there had to be a better way to do this, I was actually reading a magazine and there was an article called design... Or a company called Designit, "Designit" one word, and it reminded me of this article that I've been reading and this train of thought about the four-year college degree, the ROI on that is starting to play out, it's not very good. And the future, I don't think, is degrees or school, but skill. And so it had this energy behind it. It was a bit of a thumb in the eye to all the folks throughout the years that made fun of me for being a carpenter and a laborer. And so I had a kind of like... I don't know. It had a kind of "fuck it" energy to it. And so Skillit, that's where the name came from. [laughter] Joel Cheesman: Okay, okay. Chad Sowash: Skillit, fuck it. Yes. Joel Cheesman: You have a nice folks-y, "I'm a carpenter", sort of a Jesus Christ angle to your pitch here. But you've founded other companies. You're an advisor. You're a business guy. But you don't have experience particularly, in recruitment or employment. So how did you land here? And how was your lack of experience may be an asset into this business? Fraser Patterson: Yeah, that's a good question. As I mentioned, I founded the company in 2021 after being a GC on the hiring side. So I'd been struggling to acquire craft labor and retain and train and upskill craft labor. I'd also been on the other side. So as you pointed out, I was a carpenter for many years. I was on the trade side. So I was starting to realize that the problem we were facing was really a data problem. So a lot of my time as a contractor was spent in the dark, not knowing how to source workers. 'Cause we've just ignored them for, well, forever, frankly, the desk-less worker. We've built all these tools for knowledge workers and not craft workers. No way to use job boards well 'cause the data isn't there. You can't really assess people's skills. You don't know how much to pay them. Connecting with them is really tough. And so yeah, I think that Skillit was born out of that frustration, but there was definitely a naivete, but I think it also gave us a unique insight. This isn't a labor issue, in my opinion. It's a data issue. And I can speak a wee bit more about what it means to be skills-focused instead of role and job-focused. 'Cause I think that's the future. But we're already starting to see how this plays out in really interesting ways. Chad Sowash: It's also behavior-focused. Fraser Patterson: Behaviour-focused. Chad Sowash: Because we take a look at, yes, all the white collar... There are a lot of types of positions that automatically went online, they went to job boards and so on and so forth. Construction wasn't that. So how do you get candidates into the system? Because this isn't the usual way they find a job. And obviously for you to scale, you need to get those candidates into the system so that they fill out all that information about them so that you have the data and you can actually make this happen. But behavior is really the big key, changing their behavior on how they go after a job. How do you do that? And how do you get them in the system? Fraser Patterson: Yeah. I think there's a couple of things that are at play here. One is we just assume that the world's deskless workers don't know how to use technology, which is rubbish. They're all using Amazon and Netflix all day long. Just no one's ever taken time to actually have empathy for them and figure out, "What's your day like?" So if you're standing by a pile driver in the freezing cold with gloves on, maybe downloading Zoom and getting on an interview isn't the best way for you to get in front of employers. And I think the other thing as well is the world's seen a huge change in the last five to 10 years. The trend has been for more and more workers to expect more. Because they're on Netflix, because they've got these natively digital experiences, they want a faster, easier recruitment process themselves. But also, they are moving away from gig work. So it's really interesting. You see most graphs will show you this trend that gig work is eating the world. In construction, 98% of the workers that are... Of the tens of thousands that are coming on to Skillit, they want full-time work with a company that respects the craft, pays them well, trains and upskills them. They're looking for a home. So that's our value prop. We didn't go out there with, "buy low, sell high" mentality of staffing agencies and RPOs, et cetera. Fraser Patterson: This is essentially going out and saying, "If you create one Skillit profile," which we make super easy to do, just to give you a wee insight there, we basically... It's a self-serve process, captures a lot of great data on their skills, their expectations. We also do proprietary craft assessments that show them for the first time how they actually compare to other workers nearby. But also, we speak to every worker. Chad Sowash: You actually vet them. I went through the process. So the question here though is, you have to get to scale. How do you get tons, loads of construction workers into the system? I understand that they know technology. It's just the difference between desktop versus mobile, texting versus Zoom. Totally get that. We understand that 100%. What I don't get and what I need to understand from you is, how do you get to scale with actually getting more construction workers in? Joel Cheesman: When's the SuperBowl ad, is what we wanna know. When's the SuperBowl ad? [laughter] Chad Sowash: We know that's not gonna happen. But how are you doing it? How are you getting to scale? Fraser Patterson: So a few things. One is we've got a really powerful content strategy, we've got a great digital footprint. We've been able to use that highly data-driven understanding of workers. And actually, it's pretty unparalleled. It means that when we speak to, say, carpenters in New York, it's a different positioning or messaging. It's more personalized than, say, a concrete worker in Charlotte. So we're pulling in workers. And the 52% of workers that join Skillit recommend another worker, we're also building our product so that it becomes... They can network the workers. So this is not for right now. This is not the phase we're focused on, but we're gonna be networking the workers so that they can actually engage with each other. Not a social play. We don't believe in building a social platform. We get compared to LinkedIn a lot. Fraser Patterson: Maybe the same or similar outcome, but not the same strategy. And there's powerful network effects that we're starting to see play out. So there's real value to the worker tools that we're starting to build, the career guidance, salary tools, leader boards, et cetera, and also value to workers platforming other workers. So for example, almost all customers have an employee referral program. If you network the worker, we can actually enable them to bring in... Am I rambling? Alright, alright. [laughter] Joel Cheesman: Yeah, yeah. A Scot that talks a lot, imagine that. That's so weird. Fraser Patterson: We're not exactly loquacious, but yeah, sure. Chad Sowash: Yeah, never heard that before. Never heard that before. Joel Cheesman: "You may take our lives... " Anyway, sort of dovetailing into that, you guys just raised, what was it, $8.5 million. It's a total of $13.6 million, which is a really healthy... Chad Sowash: That's a big applause. Joel Cheesman: Organic growth. Good stuff. So what are you spending the money on? How do you plan on spending it? Obviously, I think go-to-market is some of that, but how else are you leveraging the cash? Fraser Patterson: Yeah. So obviously expanding our sales, marketing, customer success teams, product and engineering teams. We've started a really successful sales rollout. So we wanna basically be building on the implementation and activation and an expansion of customer accounts. I think really importantly as well, it's a good healthy signal to our customers because they're looking to build... A lot of these companies have multi-year project pipelines. And what we're essentially building out is a craft recruiting and intelligence platform that has essentially several years of capital in the bank as a runway. So they can confidently engage with us. I think that that goes a long way to giving these larger mid-market and enterprise customers confidence that we're gonna be around for the next few years to build this out and they can rely on us. Joel Cheesman: That's good. So you mentioned being around for a while. So let's talk about the competition. FactoryFix is a sponsor of the show. I assume they're in that mix. It's interesting that you say the gig economy is not on your radar as a competitor. You threw out LinkedIn, I assume you don't consider them a competitor, but maybe there's something there that we don't know. Talk about the competitive landscape and where you guys are different and how you fit in. Fraser Patterson: Yeah. So today we're laser-focused on the construction, W2 construction industry, top 10 trades. These are really critical trades to our critical infrastructure and clean energy goals that we're seeing huge tailwinds behind. So we're laser-focused on that. W2, for the aforementioned reasons, we're really... Over time, once we've solved... Once we've built that data model out and can actually show that the hiring outcomes using Skillit are superior than all the other solutions combined. So faster access to workers, better outcomes in terms of interviews, better retention. We plan to be 10/99, we also... We're in early talks with unions. So this is gonna be both open shop and union. We wanna give our customers a single solution where they can hire anywhere in the country, eventually anywhere in the world, regardless of the flavor of that labor. Fraser Patterson: But I think LinkedIn is not really good for the desk-less worker. Not many of our customers are going on to LinkedIn to find carpenters and plumbers and electricians. And it's not because their technology doesn't necessarily work. It's because that that demographic didn't feel ever communicated to or catered to by... Kind of felt like an imposter in that room. But we do see ZipRecruiter, Indeed, all the obvious job boards. We know most of our customers are using Indeed. We consider that to be our primary competition. And becoming a larger share of hires than them is one of our internal goals. But a lot of the problem here is that, with these solutions is they're point solutions. They're not really truly verticalized. They haven't understood the worker. They don't build out the tools to make the process... There's no automation potential. And often, it just exasperates all the downstream problems. Chad Sowash: So I'm gonna go back to products and things that obviously employers care about the most. So what is the current size of your database and what is your internal goal for the end of the year? What are the marks you guys are trying to hit? Fraser Patterson: So we don't get into the numbers 'cause how we're actually acquiring the workers is a wee bit proprietary, and I get into trouble when I talk about actual numbers on the worker side. But just to be clear... [laughter] Fraser Patterson: Sorry to disappoint, but it is what it is. But on the customer side, we have customer goals, we have market goals, how many trades, how many regions, and we're making great progress towards those. And today, what we've done over 200 times is launched what we call "trade region pairs". So launching a trade in a region and satiating our customers' hiring goals, we've done that successfully over 200 times now. So the network is starting to grow on the labor side. We're growing really fast on the customer side, 50% month-on-month growth there. So very healthy. And look, the goal here really is get to a point where in the next 18 months, we are essentially the critical W2 labor platform for the top ENR and the mid-market and from there, go up and downstream. Chad Sowash: Okay. So it sounds like the way that you're rolling out is more of a regional effect. You're picking areas that are highly, let's say for instance, in need of construction. I'm sure you're doing your research in that area. And then you're rolling that out region by region. And you're doing that not just with all of your construction and pipe fitting and so on and so forth. You're doing that specifically in certain areas and then starting to grow that. Is that correct? Fraser Patterson: Yeah. So the strategy here is really acquire high-quality demand, so high-quality customers. That gives us the ability to then acquire local supplies of labor. And then we can repeat that and go land and expand with those customers, but also that means we can build the labor supply and then start an outbound motion to pull in customers who are, essentially, hiring for the same trades in those regions, like carpenters in Nashville and electricians in Phoenix. And we've been really methodical about how we do that because we've developed a kind of labor... We call it a labor acquisition investment formula. We're quite literally figuring out what is the cost of acquiring labor in all these markets, and what are the top regions, and what are the top trades, crane count, all of these variables go into our mix to inform our go-to-market. Chad Sowash: Okay. So when you actually go into these areas, are you working directly with unions as well? Because in many cases, they are the supply. And to be quite frank, you could be the operating system for unions. And I mean, obviously, there are several unions that you're going to be touching. So is that one of the strategies that you wanna be the operating system for the unions that are out there who really have the supply already baked in? Fraser Patterson: Yeah. We were actually in Washington just at the end of last year with the TAUC. So we're starting early conversations with the unions. Most... Skillit can get very large with purely open shop. It's 88% of all of the skilled labor in the US is not affiliated with a union. But we think that there's a huge value to partnering with unions over time and, yeah, very possibly helping to digitize and power their whole experience, their dispatch experience. They have similar challenges to what our customers have in terms of acquisition of labor, recruitment, retention, training, upskilling. So yeah, I think we can help power their members experience, but we're a little... That's a little bit off from now. Not our primary focus. Chad Sowash: Okay. So right now we do have a limited labor supply, as you had said before. When Joel and I went to school, we actually had what they had comprehensive high schools, where you could go through instead of trying to get ready for college, you would go into electricity to be an electrician, to be a carpenter, to be a plumber, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. We wiped those off the map with stupid trickle-down economics, pushing everybody to be able to get a piece of paper as opposed to skills, right? Fraser Patterson: Yep. Chad Sowash: So that being said, one of the biggest issues we have is that we don't have enough labor. We have plenty of demand. We just don't have the labor to be able to supply to it. So when it comes to training, are you guys looking at prospectively partnering up with training organizations and/or prospectively pulling in and using maybe some of that money to do a little training yourself? Fraser Patterson: Yeah. So we believe that by starting with the customer and digitizing the worker, building that digital infrastructure, getting big with that digital infrastructure will enable us to actually start to build products for the workers. So yes, in essence, we can already see the strengths and weaknesses of a worker, we can provide that information to a customer, that customer can then better target the training that that individual worker needs. So it can become much more personalized, which of course leads to better retention and so on and so forth. Fraser Patterson: And of course, I think the powering of that... Yeah, we can connect with trade schools. There's lots of green shoot, labor supplies popping up in an effort to solve this huge problem. I think being really front row with the data, and the labor data on the workers and the trust of the customers as their data-driven craft recruiting solution, I think that gives us a great opportunity to inform all of these entities on how they should be training and upskilling and connect... Build the piping to connect them. Joel Cheesman: I'm interested in your comment about Washington. Are you guys lobbying? What are you doing in Washington? Is there immigration policy that you'd like to see happen or not happen? Fraser Patterson: So, we were invited by The Association of Union Constructors. They're a premier national trade association for contractors. We've had a lot of interest from unions because we're... I think we're tackling this in a unique way and I've taken a anti-Travis Kalanick approach to dealing with unions which is... To actually engage and figure out, can we work together, and how, and not get to scale and then become contentious with one another. And those conversations are fascinating 'cause they have very unique challenges, which I think, over time, we can re-architect and build product for. But for now, no, no lobbying. Joel Cheesman: Yeah, I don't wanna make it a political interview. It's about the business. Maybe we can talk about immigration and other things at some point down the road. You mentioned, at some point, hiring around the world, which makes me think there is either an international push now or that there will be in the future. Talk about your global aspirations. Fraser Patterson: Yeah. So we are getting pull right now internationally, but we're choosing, obviously, to stay focused on the US. That's par for the course. But I've lived in different countries. I've lived in the UK, I've lived in Mexico, and I've been in the industry in all these industries and frankly, it's a very similar problem and this really is a global issue. I think if we're gonna achieve these huge lofty goals of clean energy transition, de-carbonization of our real estate, the electrification of our real estate, housing goals, infrastructure goals, immigration is a key piece of that. And I think once we've got to phase two where we can actually start to build product for our worker, I really do see us starting to operate internationally before even being a household name in the US and potentially, yeah, using data-driven immigration as a tool to help solve supply-demand. And I think there's a really worrying idea that robots are coming to the rescue, and I don't know if that's something that interests you, but I think it's a fascinating topic. It's... I don't see that happening in construction... Joel Cheesman: Yeah, go ahead, go ahead. Give us your take on AI automation, how that's gonna impact the business. Fraser Patterson: Yeah I mean, we've seen a huge proliferation of AI across media, banking, healthcare, but that's because these industries naturally produce massive amounts of information, white papers, blogs, et cetera, social posts. That's how you train on a large language model to power an AI. There's no data in construction. There's no data flying off of a carpenter each time they're doing some trim work. So we... The world's intelligentia has ignored that, that the industry itself is not naturally gonna produce information that can help train and refine a language model and AI. So on the one hand, it's gonna be extremely hard for us to fully autonomous anything in construction, but also, it's massively risky. I mean, it's high-risk. You can understand that construction companies are really... Have a low-risk tolerance. So the first part makes it unlikely, and I think the safety part makes it unlikely squared. So this falls on us. This is on humans to solve this problem, which is exciting. That's a great future where you're not just... I don't know. Maybe crossing an ocean is one way to solve climate change in a boat. I think it's better to get out there and build solar farms and help connect people to do that. Joel Cheesman: Fraser, I know exactly what you're saying because I've put together an IKEA couch before. I know how hard construction labor is. [chuckle] Fraser Patterson: Yeah. Joel Cheesman: What do you guys wanna be when you grow up? Is it get acquired? I have a hard time seeing an IPO for a company like this. What do you wanna be? What's the end game here? Fraser Patterson: Oh, go public. Hard to see an IPO? Really? For a... I don't see that hard at all. But we're not... I don't wanna build to anything less. I think what we're building has so much potential, both domestically, internationally in terms of becoming a critical labor platform, a company of consequence that actually solves a real world problem. And I don't wanna put that into anyone else's hands, frankly. I would only trust us to go public. That is the goal. I've been acquired before. I don't like it. And I'm not saying that I would die for fiduciary duty to entertain all of that along the way, but we're aiming to go all the way. I think Skillit is building, potentially, a really important company for the 21st century. All the tailwinds are behind us. We just need to keep building. Joel Cheesman: Going on all the way, Chad. Jesus Christ. Global aspirations, IPOs. This thing must be really F-in expensive. Talk about the pricing. How are you gouging companies so much to have this kind of mentality? Fraser Patterson: Yeah. No, we're not. Actually, we're about 70% cheaper when you tie in together all of the various costs that construction companies are spending across the various point solutions they've got, from Indeed, like job boards, RPOs, staffing agencies, et cetera. We charge a monthly subscription for each region and role and the value equation continues to evolve, but it is a affordable monthly subscription for access to all... An unlimited number of hires. You have unlimited seats. It's better on the bottom line, not just a better solution. Joel Cheesman: Was there an actual number in there? I dosed off a little bit. Fraser Patterson: No, I didn't provide one. Joel Cheesman: Okay, thanks. I just wanna make sure that... Fraser Patterson: You need coffee, man. Joel Cheesman: That was the case. Alright. He's a little dodgy. Is he ready for the firing squad though? Fraser Patterson: It was only 30 seconds. [laughter] That's awesome. Joel Cheesman: Alright, Chad, he's chomping at the bit. He's on his third cup of coffee. Go for it, Chad. Chad Sowash: So Fraser, I grew up in a construction family. Every single male, I swear, had a hammer with him, or fitting pipes all damn day, and they were always busy. And every single one of them had a chip on their shoulder because they had all of these individuals who went to "college" had the paper, that looked down upon them, although these guys made a damn good living. We've gotten away from that. And I can kinda like feel that chip on your shoulder, which I love. I love that 'cause that drives a startup. It drives a founder. Now, I understand that you're very, very early in this journey, and being able to actually get the skills on over the paper but getting the data, that to me is going to be one of the very hard pieces for you guys, especially even as you roll out these trade region pairs. Investing in sales and marketing makes a hell of a lot of sense, but the thing is, as a guy who's done go-to-market for years, you have to have that product solid, and which means we need candidates and you need a lot more data to be able to make sure that you get in there. Chad Sowash: So driving candidates with grassroots and a content strategy. The whole network effect thing sounds great, it sounds wonderful, but you're gonna need more than that. I really believe you're gonna need more than that. 98% of construction workers who come into Skillit, they want full-time, that doesn't surprise me at all. They don't wanna gig from job to job. They want to have that 40-hour-a-week schedule where they know they have stability. That's what they want. Here's the thing. I really believe you need to become the operating system for the unions. Chad Sowash: And the reason why I say that is because they have so many things that you need. Number one, they have the supply. Number two, they have the training. They have all of those things. Not to mention, you talk about going to DC and starting to partner with government. Government needs this too. They need an answer. The unions need an answer. The government needs an answer. Which means I don't think you're ever gonna have problems with additional cash if you can start to demonstrate this type of go-to-market and operating system type of business. And then at that point, I don't think an IPO is hard to see at all. This is very early, very early in your journey. But also, this is what companies are not doing and they're not doing well. I've gone through your process. You do ask a lot of questions, but those are the data points that are needed. And I think you've got a great idea, you just have to pull all of this go-to-market together. Which is why I'm gonna give you a big applause. I really think this is something incredibly needed in our industry and obviously our country. Joel Cheesman: Alright, alright. Fraser Patterson: Thanks, Chad. Joel Cheesman: Lord Fraser, don't get cocky 'cause it's my turn. I'm going from big chips on the shoulder to big waves in the ocean. Listeners know that I love a good wave. It's much better to be a pretty good surfer on a great wave than a great surfer on a shitty wave. A little tidbit of information for our listeners, according to a report by Deloitte and The Manufacturing Institute, an estimated 2.1 million manufacturing jobs could go unfilled by 2030 and the cost of those missing jobs could potentially total $1 trillion in 2030 alone. That means there's demand and not enough supply, which means my friend, you're in the catbird seat for an industry that is going to need money, influence, attention. We mentioned government a little bit. We didn't mention the IRA in this call, the Inflation Reduction Act, which puts a lot of money into repairing, let's be honest, a crippling and decrepit American infrastructure... Chad Sowash: Yes. Joel Cheesman: That needs a lot of help. There are seven million or so men, I believe, on the sidelines, that are just opting out of the workforce. I think that the society's impression of laborers is changing slowly but surely. They're not viewed as losers like they were back in the day. I think that all that bodes well for your business. I hope you prove me wrong on the IPO thing. And maybe I'll even buy a share or two if you actually get on the NASDAQ. Joel Cheesman: I think this is also a global problem. There's a little thing called a war going on in Europe. Ukraine's gonna need to be rebuilt. Europe as well is gonna pitch into this process. I think it's all very good. Immigration, as you mentioned, I don't see that changing. I think that's a political grenade that no one's touching, which means the labor supply is gonna continue to be short, which means companies are gonna be paying you a lot of money to help solve their problems. I have a hard time finding any bad around this business other than maybe unknown threats that we don't see. I don't see any Coke competitors out there that'll squash you like a bug. So for those reasons and Chad's alone, I too... [applause] Joel Cheesman: Am giving Skillit a rousing applause. And it's making me a little hungry talking about it. That my friend, is a double-double bi-rating, which gives you... [music] Chad Sowash: Big applause. Joel Cheesman: The Careless Whisper. Chad Sowash: Big applause. Joel Cheesman: Yes, big applause. And of course, I gotta play it one more time. SFX: Welcome to all things Scottish. Our slogan is, "If it's not Scottish, it's crap!" Joel Cheesman: Alright, Fraser, you survived the firing squad. How do you feel? Fraser Patterson: Feeling good. Yeah, enjoyed it. Good format. And great to meet you, guys. Keep doing the great work, it's awesome. Joel Cheesman: Can we consider that a round of applause for our show as a first time? Fraser Patterson: Yeah, absolutely. It is. Chad Sowash: Joel needed hugged a lot when he was a kid. Yeah. [laughter] Joel Cheesman: I need a hug. I need a hug. Alright Fraser, before you leave us, where can our listeners find out more about the company? Fraser Patterson: Skillit.com, S-K-I-L-L-I-T dot com. We're also on LinkedIn, obviously. And you can find us on Twitter and Facebook. It's SkillitUSA. Joel Cheesman: No TikTok? Fraser Patterson: We are on TikTok, but I think it's probably SkillitUSA as well. Joel Cheesman: Okay, good. Alright, alright. Fraser Patterson: It's fairly new. Yeah. Joel Cheesman: Good to hear. I would have changed my review of the product. And with that Chad, another firing squad is in the can. We out. Chad Sowash: We out. SFX: This has been the Firing Squad. Be sure to subscribe to The Chad and Cheese Podcast so you don't miss an episode. And if you're a startup who wants to face the Firing Squad, contact the boys at chadcheese.com today. That's W-W-W dot C-H-A-D-C-H-E-E-S-E dot com.

Europe has been a leader when it comes to passing laws that protect individual privacy and support pay equity for years, and a new law taking hold will require a large number of companies to publish salary ranges just a few short years from now. It’s all pretty detailed - and probably pretty confusing to a lot of Americans - which is why we invited Maria Colacurcio, CEO at Syndio and Anita Lettink, future or work speaker & HR tech advisor, to the podcast. We have so many questions, and it’s a good thing they have all the answers. If you’re doing business in Europe, it’s a must-listen. And if you’re in North America, it could be a crystal ball into the future. https://synd.io/blog/eu-pay-transparency-cheat-sheet/ PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps support and educate your workforce through disability awareness and inclusion training. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. [music] Joel: Oh, yeah. It's your mom's favorite podcast, AKA the Chad and Cheese podcast. What's up boys and girls? I am Joel Cheeseman, your co-host, joined as always, the jelly to my peanut butter, Chad Sowash is in the house. And today we welcome Maria Colacurcio, CEO at Syndio and Anita Lettink, future of work speaker and HR tech advisor. Ladies, that's a mouthful. Welcome to the podcast. Maria Colacurcio: Thanks for having us. Chad: From all over. Now, Maria, where are you at right now? Maria Colacurcio: Well, normally I am in Bellevue, Washington, outside Seattle, Washington but right now I'm in Redwood City, California, so, you know. Chad: Okay. Same coast. Same coast. But we have Anita, who's all the way across the other side of the pond. Now, you're in the Netherlands. Where at in the Netherlands, Anita? Anita Lettink: I live close to Amsterdam. Chad: Nice. Joel: Oh, well, that's a bummer. That must suck, huh? Anita Lettink: Yeah, that's really bad. [laughter] Chad: Well, let's go ahead and do this. Let's go over, let's do some Twitter bios real quick. Just really short about you, long walks on the beach, what you like to do, all that other fun stuff. Anita, go ahead and go first. Anita Lettink: I like to travel. I like to read and I do a lot of public speaking, as you said, HR tech and payroll advisor, and currently writing a book on equal pay. Chad: Shocking. Imagine that. So where's your favorite place to travel to? Anita Lettink: Oh, good question. I like San Francisco. I like New York, was there last year and this year I went to Slovenia where I had never been and that was awesome. Joel: And where's your least favorite, whether it's based on the city is shit or the people are assholes? Anita Lettink: I don't know. I don't have a city where I think I never want to go there again because, there's always something... I mean, the moment you're at the airport, it feels like vacation, at least for me. Chad: Yeah. We'll give you a long list about ones here in the States that you just don't wanna mess with. So Maria, over to you. Give us a quick Twitter bio about you. Maria Colacurcio: Okay. I, as you said, am the CEO of Syndio. So I am obsessed with all things workplace equity, which is important. I also am obsessed with these crazy fitness competitions that started in Europe. So they're on trend with our theme today, which is Europe, the EU directive. And they involve running, pushing a heavy sled, all sorts of crazy stuff. I'm just, I love it. Joel: Are you old enough to remember American Gladiators? Maria Colacurcio: Yes. Joel: So there's a great documentary called Muscles and Mayhem, I think, on Netflix that documents... Chad: She's writing it down. Joel: The rise and fall of American Gladiators. It was awesome, as someone who was there. Chad: Are you a big CrossFitter? Is that what I'm hearing? Maria Colacurcio: No, it's not really CrossFit. I think CrossFit's starting to come into the sport. It's called HYROX. And my friend's daughter was like, if you have to spell it, it's not a sport. [laughter] There's that opinion. [laughter] Joel: HYROX is what I say at the bar on Friday night. Maria Colacurcio: All right, but it's running, you run at about 8K, so you run a kilometer and then you do some sort of thing and it's pushing a heavy sled, doing lunges with a sandbag on your back, and then you run again. So it's a lot of running. So what it does is, for us littler folk, I'm only 5'4", it kind of balances it out because I might not be as good on an erg or a rower or a ski because I'm not as heavy, but I can make up for it on the run. So it feels equalizing and I'm all about equity. Chad: So it sounds like equity to me, which goes right into today's subject. What a great segue, Maria. Joel: I thought she was gonna say, do a 1K and then chug a beer. I wasn't expecting push something else. Maria Colacurcio: I mean... Joel: There are those. SFX: How could anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Chad: There are that. Maria Colacurcio: And they do pay their male and female winners the same. So that's another big plug for the sport. Chad: Very happy. You can thank women's soccer for that. Okay. So let's go, we're gonna go ahead and delve directly into today's EU directive on transparency. We also wanna talk a little bit about the US and how we're being impacted, but I think it's important to set up some context for those listeners who don't really understand the problem, let alone this new directive. So let's get into some causation real quick. The gender pay gap basically defined as, my definition, as men getting paid more for doing the exact same job as women are doing. In the US, the newest Pew research shows that compared to White men, White women get paid 83 cents on the dollar, Black women, 70 cents on the dollar, and Hispanic women 65 cents on the dollar. So how did we get here? How did we... How did this huge gap, this huge pay gap, actually form? How did it happen? Anita Lettink: Yeah. So there are several reasons for the pay gap. Traditionally, men negotiate better than women, that has always been thought. But what new research actually shows is that male bosses are more inclined to give men who negotiate a higher salary than women who negotiate. There are all kinds of reasons why this has happened. Other reasons are, for instance, women taking a career break because they're the ones to have children, obviously, and interestingly enough here is that there's also a fatherhood bonus. So if you are a man with children, and research has shown that you get higher raises simply because employers think that you provide more or you have more stability in your career. So those are two reasons. Maria Colacurcio: I think a big part of this is because companies are not yet realizing that they are accountable for this. And it's incumbent upon the employer to make sure they're analyzing pay equity to ensure they don't have disparities that are because of gender, race, or ethnicity. So one of the things that drives me nuts is when people start talking about negotiation, for example, if you are dinging people because they're not a good negotiator, that is not the person's problem, that is your problem as an employer because negotiation is not typically something that you want to say is a reason you pay what you pay. So I think one of the things that's really interesting with all these pay transparency laws that are accelerating really quickly around the country and around the world is that companies now have to be pretty responsible for understanding why they pay what they pay. And in the past, when you look at the way pay equity analyses were done, they were this archaic clunky backward-looking thing, and nobody really understood why it is they pay an engineer X or another engineer Y. And so the more accountable you make employers on that, the better it will get. Chad: So Anita said something that struck me, where let's say for instance an individual's been "mommy tracked." We've heard of that before, where obviously they've gotta go out. You're having the baby, you're having your 12 weeks or the amount of weeks that you're gonna have and therefore you're automatically set back. At that point, are we actually identifying this in organizations or to be able to help them stop doing this? Or is this a part of the equation and/or formula they're using and they think it's okay and it's right. Maria Colacurcio: Yeah. I mean, I can take this first and then Anita I would love to hear your perspective. So one of the things we see all the time is an organization will say they pay for tenure. So they pay for time enrolled. That's one of the reasons why they pay what they pay. And if you look at the detail in the pay policy analytics that we offer in our product, what's really interesting is a lot of times men and women will start out making the same. Sometimes women even start out making more, but over time what happens is that men's pay increases and women's pay flat lines or goes down. And a lot of times it can be attributed to parental leave. So also men are more aggressively negotiating retention increases and women aren't, or maybe they're hitting a promotion cycle while they're out on leave. So they're missing that cycle and they're not actually getting to take advantage of it because they're gone. So they're passed over. So these are all things that a company can easily prevent if they're doing analysis and using software to make sure they deeply understand what their pay policies are doing or not doing. And trust me, I mean, I've had seven kids, so... SFX: What? Maria Colacurcio: Yeah. I have seven kids. Chad: You like, you're in your mid-20s, how do you have seven kids? [laughter] Maria Colacurcio: Oh you're the best, man. That's why I'm wearing your shirt. It's the shirt that makes me look young. No, I mean, that's six parental leaves. So you add all that time up and that's a lot of time. And so you've just gotta really understand how that's impacting folks and use analytics to make sure you're not having that pass over effect. Chad: What are we seeing in Europe around the same conversation? Anita Lettink: We have the exact same conversation... Chad: Really? Anita Lettink: Here. In fact, yeah, the EU directive came about because we have this persistent pay gap in the EU, it's about 13%. We do not break it down into race, so we don't have those numbers, but in the past decade it has only gone down with 3%. Even though equal pay for equal work, treating people equally at work has been part of the EU legislations since forever. And so that hasn't helped. And that is why we now have the new EU pay directive. Chad: Okay. So before we jump with both feet into the EU pay directive, Maria said something around negotiating and negotiating has been the, almost an American pastime. It's like if you can't negotiate for more that's your fault. Now that's been put on the individual as opposed to the employer for probably 100 years plus. So how do we get past this narrative or this thought, this thinking, this behavior to stop thinking that somebody who can negotiate is just a better employee? 'Cause that's what it comes down to. Maria Colacurcio: Yeah. You've gotta give companies tools to address this and you've gotta give them tools to address it at the recruitment level and at the hiring manager level. So one of the things that's really common for our customers is there's a solution called Pay Finder. I'm not getting salesy, but you'll understand in a sec why I'm referencing this. And what it does is it sits on top of your latest pay equity analysis. So you're good, you've done the analysis, you've remediated, you have no issues that are because of gender, race or ethnicity. You're feeling good, but now your recruiters and your hiring managers are gonna go off and not only make a bunch of new hire offers, but they're gonna promote a bunch of people. And so how do you make sure that you stay in range with those new hire offers and those promotion offers so that you don't muck everything up and when you're looking back to do your next analysis, you have a bunch of more issues? Maria Colacurcio: So to me it's really that starting pay, which is the biggest factor in any pay equity analysis, you have to have guidance. You've gotta guide the discretion with real-time data so that you know a range within which to stay. And if you've got that, if someone's negotiating, that's fine. But you also have that guiding light of what is the range within which I need to stay here so that I don't create issues moving forward. And that range is based on folks in your company who are already doing that same work and what are they getting paid? Joel: Have things gotten better or worse since the pandemic? Anita Lettink: I would say roughly the same. Maybe even a bit better because what you see with especially younger people is that they insist on seeing ranges, salary ranges in job ads. If it's not there, then they are much less likely to come and work for you. They simply want to know what you will pay or whereabout their salary will be. So I think slowly it's getting better. But what you see happening at the moment is that there are companies that are publishing these enormous ranges like we think it's... Joel: Zero to 2 million, I think, was that Citibank that did that? Yeah. Anita Lettink: Exactly, those types of, those acts of diligence. And with new legislation coming in you will see that go down because you simply cannot keep that up, your current employees see that, and if you start to publish ranges that are far outside what you give your tenured employees, then you have an immediate issue on your hands. So there have been some excesses, I would say but it is being normalized as we speak. Joel: Okay. Chad and I talk all the time about how diversity and inclusion have been politicized in America. And it becomes an issue where companies just say, screw it, I'm out. I don't, I sell stuff to everybody and I don't want to get involved in this political thing. Transparency seems to like, beyond that balance of not quite political, but could fall into political sort of arguments. Where does it fall in, in European terms? Does anyone talk about this as a political issue or is it sort of a we're all on board this progress? Anita Lettink: I wouldn't say we are all on board, but I would say it isn't nearly as politicized as it is in the US. Joel: Yeah. So the EU directive, when does it happen? Is it only Europe? Is the UK involved in any of this? Is it only focused on gender, get specific about the directive. Anita Lettink: So it is for every country within the European Union, which at the moment is not the UK anymore because of Brexit, so they left, they don't have to adhere except for the employees that they have in Europe, as for every company outside of Europe that employs people within Europe. So the threshhold for the first round in 2027 is 100 employees. If you have 100 employees, you will have to report annually on the gender pay gap in your company, which means for, I would say 90, maybe 95% of companies that they first have to understand what that is. So during the next three years, they will be busy calculating, adjusting, reviewing, so that they are ready for their first report, which is due by June 2027, and then they go on an annual repeat of that report. And then smaller companies have seven years before they have to submit their first report, and then they do it every 3-4 years. Joel: And it's not just gender as I understand it, it's... You can't say just 'cause you're older, you get less. It's a wide umbrella that's influenced by this law. Correct? Anita Lettink: It's a wide umbrella, but as a company, you only have to report on the gender pay gap, but obviously when you only look at the gender pay gap, you miss out on a whole lot of things, and as Maria can tell you, you need to look at much more elements of pay and compensation in order to bridge the gap. It is not just salary and it is not just gender. Chad: Yes. And there is my point to Maria, how do you help companies that are global organizations, they're seeing this happen in the EU, we are seeing it happening spotty through the United States, you know something like this is gonna happen in California, and everybody does business in California for God's sake, so they're all going to have to do it. So how do you start to get companies ready for this move, because many of them aren't ready. I don't know if they're not ready, they don't wanna be ready, they're trying to push back and wait until they start seeing fines to see if they even need to start putting assets and resources to this, so how are you talking to those big organizations and helping them get ready to roll this out? 'Cause it's like eating an elephant, right? You've gotta do it one bite at a time. What are those bites? Maria Colacurcio: Yeah, and just a couple of numbers to kind of set the stage on that. So before the EU directive, there are about 18 countries in Europe where global pay reporting was required, and after the EU directive, that number jumps immediately to 32. The other element of this that Anita can talk about, and she and I have had a lot of conversations about, is this concept of career progression. So before, when you think about just a pure gender pay gap report where you're looking at your median pay gap, your unadjusted gap, and for those who don't know, 'cause these get conflated all the time, there's a difference between pay equity and the pay gap. Pay equity is looking at equal pay for equal work, so looking at folks doing similar jobs and are there disparities that you can't rule out are because of something like gender or ethnicity. The unadjusted pay gap is when you look at averages, so all your men up here and all your women are down here, and what does that gap look like? So the reporting in the UK that's been around for a while, required employers to publish their pay gap. And what's really interesting to watch is the United States, traditionally in the past, was focused on pay equity, mostly because companies have that risk of pay equity class action litigation and lawsuits. And now we're seeing this cross influence where Europe's focus on unadjusted gap is starting to influence the US, and the US focus on pay equity is starting to influence Europe. Maria Colacurcio: So you're really starting to see this global approach, and the EU directive is really the first time we're seeing that global approach. Now, for global companies, these global pay reports are a huge nut to crack, and so what we're really recommending to companies is don't wait until you hit the deadline. What you really should be doing is conducting in-depth pay equity analysis now, fixing whatever problems you have, remediating, putting plans in place to fix your promotion numbers or how people are moving throughout your organization, so that when it is time to do the reporting, you're in a pretty good state. Because here's the thing, those reports are public and everyone from investors to employees who potentially wanna work for you are going to see those numbers, so the worst thing you could do is wait until those deadlines versus getting to work right now. And the last thing I'll say is, we've created solutions over the past year, I would say, in anticipation of this, to help companies get their arms around these global pay reports. Because one thing that folks don't realize until they start doing it, is that of the 27 countries, there could be 27 different little knits and knots in the reports that are a little bit different here and there. Maria Colacurcio: So it's not just one version, some require career progression, some require different cuts and slices of things, so it's really important to take that into consideration as well. Joel: Anita when you're starting to see, I mean, many of these large companies, and again, this is about eating the elephant. For me, we're in a great time where we've got data all over the place. We might not know where everything is, but being able to actually get specific types of platforms like Syndio in place to help you make sense of that, are you starting to see more companies start to lean heavier on those types of platforms to start to figure this out? 'Cause there's a lot of data, getting to it might be a pain in the ass for some, but being able to get to it and collect that data is really job won. Right? Anita Lettink: Right. But then making sure that you're comparing apples to apples is probably the hardest part of all of this. I have been in global payroll for the past 20 years, and I have witnessed this whole move of companies trying to standardize their local payrolls at the regional level, at the global level, and that is only payroll and it was super hard and it still is super hard to do. Now, you do not only need the information from your payroll system or also from your HR system, from maybe your compensation, your time system, your succession planning, so you have lots of or data that you need to put together from different countries with different local regulations. And so understanding that equal pay for equal work works the same in the Netherlands as in Germany, as in France, as in Italy, where you have all these people... Anita Lettink: Is going to be very, very time-consuming. It is not hard in the sense that you cannot put all that data together, but understanding what it means and what it means in Italy when you compare it to Poland or to Portugal, that is a whole different ball game. Also, the EU directive is a generic law that needs to be adapted by the countries. And countries must as a minimum take over the EU requirements, but are allowed to have stricter regulations. It's the same as the GDPR where we all know that Germany has the most strict form of the GDPR, and therefore a lot of hosting companies put their stuff in Germany because then they're covered for all of Europe, so something similar will probably happen for the EU directive. Countries do now have three years to put that into their local legislation and then we'll see, so we're in a bit of a wait and see situation. From a legislative perspective, you know what it will be. It might be a little bit stricter but it does not mean that you can wait. Anita Lettink: Because my feeling is that if you come out in 2027 with a report that says, "Oh wait, we have a pay gap and it is more than 5%, and we need to do something about it." That people... Your employees will turn around and say, "You knew this since 2023. You had four years to remedy this and you didn't." And I think that will be a breach of trust. Chad: Yeah, no question. So, Maria, spending 20 years in the military. Right? I see the complexity of corporate America, and it's funny because the government usually is way too complex, but in this case, if you take a look at the military, you know what everybody gets paid. Everybody has a behavior and they don't... There's no negotiation, right? You have promotions, you have schools, you have all these things, but it fits within a framework that is incredibly transparent, probably because it's all paid by taxpayer dollars, but still there is this very simplistic model in which they have been able to deploy that helps to drive equity. Should we start cleaning the corporate system up and try to move it more towards something that's more structured and more systematic and transparent like that? Maria Colacurcio: I think that's what these laws are trying to do in their own way, and if you come back to the States and you look at Illinois, for example, so the Illinois law that was just past included this provision of career progression, which is in the EU directive. So again, there's that cross-influence, so you've got equal pay for work of comparative value, you've got pay and career progression transparency, you've got the right to information, which plays into what you're asking, pay reporting and then a joint pay assessment. Those are really the components of the EU directive. Maria Colacurcio: So what Illinois does, is Illinois talks about if you have a job that has a career progression, so let's say you're a machine operator and the next level is machine operator senior or lead, they actually are requiring companies to lay out the career progression and explain in detail what skills need to be acquired in order to move up to that next level. So it really takes all the guessing out of promotions and who's being promoted and who's not. If someone is promoted, that promotion is required to be posted in terms of what does it take to get into a role like that? So I think a lot of these laws are sort of circling around the exact idea that you're talking about, which is, shouldn't we just be really transparent about why it is companies pay what they pay, what skills they're paying for, how that's changing or evolving over time based on the priorities of the business, and what it's gonna take to get up to the higher levels of pay bands. And again, it's something that feels very complex today because of how just archaic our job architectures and leveling and all of those things are because they're based on an old model. But I think as we start to modernize, we are gonna get closer to something that just feels more equitable, transparent, consistent and fair, honestly. Joel: Chad mentions the military and the military has a lot of employees. This law cuts at 100 employees which is a lot less than the military. Frankly to me, it seems kinda low for such a bureaucratic regulation to take hold. We talk about laws that have taken place in Illinois, New York and China, I like to say if you show us a 10 foot wall, we'll show you an 11 foot ladder. What are companies doing to get around this whether it's higher contract people, whether it's, oh, we're nearing 100, let's just hire people from the UK. Or let's just hire gig workers, or let's put a range between zero and 2 million in our job, or let's do it in style, like how are companies getting around this and how is the government gonna keep up? Anita Lettink: Yeah, I don't think that companies will skirt around this simply, [chuckle] they will try. But I was thinking about something similar from a legislation perspective that happened about 10 years ago when we started to talk about work councils and works councils were put in place in companies with over 35 employees. And so everyone was looking at a handful of companies that started to break down their entities in smaller entities, never going over 35 employees. Well, if you have to break that down in all these entities, that gets costly very quickly because of all the administration and the taxes and what else? Anita Lettink: So because the number is set at 100, my feeling is that this will not happen. In fact, I have talked over the past couple of weeks with some people that did this for companies with 60 employees or 70 employees and said it was no big deal, simply because people talk anyways. Everyone in a company knows what their colleagues are making or their teammates or when it's appraisal time, they want to know what did you get? And most people will maybe not say the number, but they will say the percentage, and so you have an idea of what your colleagues are making. There's ways to skirt around the official secrecy that happens at the corporate level. Joel: As an American, I think it's cute that you think no one will get around this regulation. Maria, this one's for you. As an American as well, the market tends to be the best way to get change to happen. Indeed, the number one job search site in America recently said, we're doing pay transparency. If you don't put a job or a salary range in a job, we're gonna put it in there for you. We've heard and seen notably a lot of companies do it because they don't want Indeed to just throw in whatever number, they wanna have some control over that. Do you guys have any inkling or data around what has happened with salaries in posting since Indeed made this change? Are we seeing a lot more pay transparency, a lot more ranges, a lot more applications, which is another thing that I think Anita touched on is if you put your salary range in a job posting, you're gonna get more responses, that's a market force driving change and I think that's what we're gonna see happen. Agree, disagree. Why? Anita Lettink: Oh, can I say something to that, Joel? Joel: Sure. Anita Lettink: Actually what happens is you do not get more responses, but you get better qualified to responses. You get actually less response because people self-select out, but the ones that stay in are qualified. Joel: The quality is better. Anita Lettink: Exactly. Joel: Okay. Maria Colacurcio: Yeah, and there's a lot of studies that have come out recently. I'll find the source that say Gen Z won't even apply. They won't even bother unless there's a salary range. I mean with current legislation, one-fifth of all workers in the United States are covered by some sort of pay transparency legislation today, and obviously the EU broadens that globally, so I don't know anything about with Indeed's move, what's happened since then, but I do think the more and more companies that do this, the more competitive and required it becomes. And I think it's one of these things too when you think about all of this is a brand exercise, it's not necessarily a compliance exercise. I mean it is, but it all plays back into, are you a brand I can trust? Are you a place that I believe is going to pay me fairly? And there's two sides of this, the side that nobody talks about that I think is really interesting in particular in today's macro environment with the volatility in the market and things like that, is that workplace equity is about being fair and equitable to the employee, but it's also about being fair and equitable to the employer. And the employer wants to be sure that their pay policies are driving value from the most productive folks and getting the most business performance for the company. Maria Colacurcio: So it's sort of a two-way street in that you have to make sure your pay policies and why you pay what you pay are obviously fair and equitable, but you also wanna make sure that you're paying for the things that drive your business forward. And so I think that's the big benefit for employers in this whole conversation is let's get really clear about your best negotiator might not be your best person for the job, and in fact, a lot of studies suggest that over-confidence in an interview process is actually linked to the worst performance so it's good for the employer as well. Joel: Is there anything that's going on? 'Cause I guess it cuts both ways in some cases. Do you fear that companies will be less likely to give bonuses or increase out? So you have two developers, they're the same title, they make the same money, one is clearly performing better than the other. An employer might say, "Well, I can't do anything 'cause we pay them both the same," whereas maybe without pay transparency you would say, "Okay, we're gonna bump up the better one," I mean do you get around it by giving a new title, do you give a bonus structure that's less transparent, like how does a company get through that for either of you? Anita Lettink: The fact that you have equal pay does not mean that you cannot reward people for a performance. As long as that is very clear that part of pay is performance related, whether that is a bonus or an additional increase, but you have to document it and it has to be used in the overview. So it does not mean that you cannot pay someone a little bit more because they clearly perform appraisal score was four, while the other's appraisal score was three. Joel: So developer number one is the higher performer, developer number two is the less. Well, number two now know that developer number one got a bonus, and I have to ask why, or will that be part of the law, or... Anita Lettink: No. No. So, pay transparency means that... So according to the law, you publish pay scales, it does not mean that you publish everyone's individual, so you are transparent on the process and you are transparent on pay scales if you want to. Joel: So I don't have to report a bonus to developer number one? Anita Lettink: No. Joel: OKay. Anita Lettink: Of course no. Chad: Of course not, Joel. Joel: Thanks for clearing that up for me. Maria Colacurcio: No, of course not. No. And I think that's why there's so much talk right now with our customers. For every customer that's putting in performance ratings, there's another customer throwing them out. And so it's really interesting, this whole conversation because everyone wants employees that are high performers, but this whole idea of how do we actually measure that is something that has been just a mess for decades. And I think what's really interesting about the work that we do is almost consistently when we do our first pay equity analysis with a customer, they're using performance as a control, meaning if they're using performance as one of the reasons why they pay what they pay, the next question is, "Oh, do you have a product that can analyze my performance rating to make sure that that's not biased?" And we do, so we can do that but it's all about then looking at that performance control and slicing that and making sure that you don't have the systemic problems that you tend to see with performance, which is women rate very well in performance, but their potential ratings tend to be much, much lower, it's even worse for women of color. So making sure that you're looking at that reading and taking that pretty seriously, is something I would also highly recommend. Anita Lettink: Yeah, and I think to that point, I think that a lot of companies are throwing performance ratings out in a first go is simply because as they are understanding all these contributors to pay, they also realize how biased their current performance ratings are. Chad: Right. Anita Lettink: And when there is bias in your performance ratings, then obviously it's very difficult to use them when you're setting up this whole equal pay initiative. That does not mean that you cannot re-introduce it, but it does mean that you have to make adjustments and probably train your managers and look at the process itself, but afterwards you can definitely use it again. Chad: So for me, it sounds like much like we're doing with AI today, it's explainability, because as we're looking at compliance, you've gotta be able to take this mess, this black box, which we always talk about AI being a black box. Same thing with pay, pay is a black box, nobody can see in and it's not transparent, so therefore, we've gotta be able to provide, again, a cleaner solution with explainability in there so that when you do have compliance and reports and so on and so forth, you know what the hell is going on. I've got one more question. Maria, you talked about trust, right? And how trust could actually be synonymous, should be synonymous with your brand. Have you started to see some of your clients start using that trust along with like a narrative within the actual employer brand or the total brand narrative? Maria Colacurcio: Absolutely, so we have a certification program that's called Fair Pay Workplace, and the whole point is there's a separate alliance of experts that decides on what is the methodology, standards and tools to have a pay equity analysis that is done the right way. Because there's a bunch of ways you can do this wrong, you can disaggregate to green, you can do all the stuff that Joel said, sort of squint and say, "Well, he's a special snowflake, so he doesn't count. I'm not gonna compare him to her. I'm actually... Joel: I'm starting to feel triggered Maria, watch out. [laughter] Maria Colacurcio: Yeah. The cynic, right? So we put together the certification program so that our customers could actually have the stamp of approval that says not only are we doing pay equity, we're a fair pay workplace. Certified, we're doing it the right way, everything's above board and we do it as acknowledged by this alliance of experts. So what we're seeing is that so many of our customers are now using that in their recruiting, they're putting itt on their website, they're talking about it to new candidates, to existing employees, they're doing town halls around it, they're asking us to come to town halls, and I think there is this really important measure of, you are offering me your time and your labor, and I am in return making sure that I value you for that contribution. And then I'm analyzing and taking it upon myself as the employer to make sure it's equitable. So we're seeing that really, really start to accelerate because I think companies realize that pretty soon this is going to become table stakes. So the ones that are doing it well now wanna try and garner some credit and actually use it as a differentiator while they can. Joel: Ladies, thank you for coming on the Chad and Cheese podcast, that is Maria Colacurcio and Anita Lettink. Ladies, if anyone listening wants to connect with you or find out more, where would you send them? Maria Colacurcio: Anyone can email me, you can email me directly. I'm maria@synd.io. Anita Lettink: And you can find me on LinkedIn or through my website anitalettink.com. Joel: Love it, love it. Chad: Too easy. Joel: Chad, that is another one in the can. We gotta make sure that you and I are both paid equally before we do any more shows on this podcast. We out. Chad: We out. Outro: Wow, look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast, or maybe you cheated and fast-forwarded to the end. Either way, there is no doubt you wish you had that time back, valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckle heads instead. Now, go take a shower and wash off on the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away and like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

That’s a serious problem for LinkedIn, and the boys dig into the issue and offer some possible remedies. LinkedIn isn’t the only one with problems, of course. Deel, an industry player who’s raised a total of $679 million to date, has its feet to the fire following an exposè by The Information. Plus, AI is trying to kill us, or at least the good folks of New Zealand, while kids in America are the new slave labor down on the farm. Then you have Delta who, along with Tom Brady, have formed an unholy alliance that’s wrong on so many levels. At least there’s some good news out of Indeed … wait, what? Gotta listen to find out. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps forward thinking employers create world class hiring and retention programs for people with disabilities. Intro: Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR's most dangerous Podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. [music] Chad: Aw, yeah! It's International Star Trek Day, which means this show is ready to boldly go where no podcast has gone before. You're listening to the Chad and Cheese Podcast. This is your co-host, Joel... Joel: I just can't do it, Captain! I don't have the power! Chad: Cheeseman. [laughter] Chad: This is Chad, C is for Champion Sowash. Joel: And on this week's show, "Why women are swiping left on LinkedIn." Big deal, little deal, or no deal. And Tom Brady's retirement is really taking off. Let's do this. Chad: Oh so bad. [laughter] Joel: How was your labor day weekend? Summer's over. Chad: It was great. Went to Edisto Island, just about an hour from Charleston. I spent long weekend there with some family, doing some golf, spent some time in Charleston, then I came back. And Bradley, oh, yeah, from Candidate Hub sent me the Red Bank, which is... I've never had before. It's Canadian, I don't generally choose Canadian, but when it's sent to me, Bradley, you know I'm gonna drink it. Joel: Yup, he sent me a bottle of Laphroaig. Your favorite. Chad: So bad! Joel: Your favorite. Very nice, very nice bottle. I went to the opposite side or end of the country, I went to Minnesota. Chad: And it was hotter. Joel: It was hotter probably than where you were. It was in the 90s... Chad: It was. Joel: For God's sakes. And my wife is a huge Pearl Jam fan. Went to see them on Saturday night. During the day, we went to go see North Dakota State University football at the US Bank Stadium where the Vikings play. Which is a very cool stadium. It's very nice, it's a pretty brand new. And North Dakota... Chad: It's cool. Joel: They party, man. They know how to... Carson Wentz, they have a really proud football program... Chad: What else can you do in North Dakota? Joel: They've won like 17 national... Yeah, it's snow and football and beer, probably, but Minneapolis... Chad: And goats! Joel: It's a nice city. We had a good time in Minneapolis. Pearl Jam still brings it. They ended it with 'Purple Rain,' which was a great ending to that show. Chad: Very smart. Very smart. Joel: Apparently they're doing in every city, sort of... Yeah, they did a 'Cheap Trick' cover when they did Chicago. They're coming here to Indi this weekend, I will be there. I'm gonna go with 'Mellencamp' cover, if they're gonna do an Indiana... Chad: Like 'Little Pink Houses' or something. The 'Jack and Diane.' Joel: You gotta do 'Small Town' right? 'Small Town' would get everybody hyped up. [laughter] Chad: Okay. Whatever, okay. Joel: So anyway, a good time. Fall is here. Conference season is here. Football is here. I'm pretty psyched up. Chad: It is here. And we had our fantasy football draft last night. That's right, kids. Go ahead and go through the draft report. It was a pretty quick draft, which I like. I like that we had a quicker draft. The ones that I'm usually sitting through are like an hour and a half, two hours, this was less than an hour, which was fucking perfect. Joel: This is no child's game. When you play Chad and Cheese fantasy, you're on the clock. This is like time chess. You gotta make decisions quickly. Chad: Quickly, baby. Joel: You get extra flex in our league, which includes a quarterback, so you can play two quarterbacks. Which also means, with 12 people, the good QBs, man, they start getting sucked up fast. So we saw that happen. We have a pretty... Chad: 'Cause I took two QBs right outta the gate because I was 12th in the snake draft and I'm like, "Fuck this, I'm switching shit up. I'm going two fucking QBs right out of the gate." And that's what I did. Joel: Yeah, and I picked 11th, so I was right there with you. We have a pretty short bench... Chad: Yes. Joel: If you have an injury... Chad: Five. Joel: Or something bad happens, there's not a lot of talent left for you to weed through the dead talent that's in the NFL. It's a tough league, but it's a fun league. I'm pretty excited. Let's go down the grades. If you're not familiar with Fantasy, Yahoo ESPN after the draft, they give you a grade, typical ABCDF. Here's a breakdown of how we did. Jasper, our European delegate, got an A plus. Big Jets fan, big football fan, so that doesn't surprise me, even though he's from Europe. Your boy here, the Roundabout, got an A plus as well, which I'm really proud of. Which actually, I got A plus in my other draft, which means I'm gonna finish last in both of them. [laughter] Joel: Brent Lowe C, B plus. You got a B minus. Michelle Sergeant, C plus. Which she cleverly said, "C is for champion," so she kinda spun it. Chad: I can't believe she's bringing out the C word already. Joel: Yeah, Joe Dickson, the Factory Fix representative who is sponsoring Fantasy Football, came in with a C, so he's no smoking Joe. He's more of an average Joe at this point in the league. [laughter] Joel: Kristen Urban, C. Dena Parrow, C. Dennis Tupper, last year's champion, C minus. Marcy Mall, D. Dean Awsner, D minus. Jill Patterson, D minus. No one got an F, but there were some bad grades on this one, we'll see. It starts tonight. Chad: Yes. Joel: You'll be listening to this on Friday, so you will have known that the Chiefs... Lions... It starts tonight, I'm fired up. Chad: Yup! Joel: I'm fired up. Chad: It is. Joel: My wife is in Europe, so I have carte blanche to watch much football as I want. My six-year-old is gonna OD on iPad time, and I don't care. Chad: It should be iPad... He should be ODing on NFL time. That's what he should be doing. Joel: Did I say six? Yeah... He's not quite there with Dad. Chad: What was I doing when I was six? Come on! Anyway. Joel: On your pick, so who are you most excited about? Give us a couple of players that you're really into, that you got... Maybe some steals? Chad: Yeah, I didn't get any steals, unfortunately, I had a couple in mind, and I think you took a couple of them, 'cause you were right before me and I was like, "Fuck!" Joel: And don't think I didn't think about that. Don't think I didn't think about like, "Who would Chad take if I don't take them?" Chad: And I don't just take the next ranked that ESPN or Yahoo says. I'm gleaning down through. And I even had Zeke, I had Elliot. I was okay, he's gonna get some time this year. I know he is. I'm gonna pick him a little bit later. And it was right before I was going to pick him. You didn't pick him? Somebody else did. I was, fuck. I've got a, obviously a good team, B minus, pretty cool with that. But yeah, I think Lamar Jackson, and Joe Burrow being my quarterbacks or the highlights. No question. Joel: Yeah. I think Zeke has adopted my diet regimen 'cause he's looking more like the fridge than he is, the Zeke that we know. Maybe he'll punch in a lot of touchdowns like the fridge did back in the '80s. Chad: Possibly. Joel: So a lot of people pick quarterbacks first out the gate, which is not traditionally a fantasy strategy. It's get the receivers, get the highest, the high yardage guys. So I was happy at picking at 11th that Kelsey was around, so I just said, screw it. He's a good 10+ everyday, but he's got a bone bruise apparently. So we'll see how that goes. Chad: Not your typical tight end. Joel: Yeah, Trevor Lawrence pretty boy. I picked him last year and he started blowing up at the end. I think he's gonna have a really solid season. I'm excited about him. Otherwise, starters are pretty good. But my bench is crap. My bench is a whole lot of like Odell Beckham Jr, Dalvin Cook. Hopefully he'll play, so again, this league is not for the weak of heart, man, it's a tough league. So every week we'll start going down the leaderboards. We'll have this adventure together. And I'm really excited. I'm sure the Europeans are really excited to listen about fantasy football. Chad: Thanks. FactoryFix. Well, they should be. It's the top grossing sport in the world. Are you kidding me? Come on. [laughter] SFX: Shout out. Chad: Okay, I'm gonna do something here that's gonna shock a bunch of you. Shout out to Indeed. SFX: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Joel: I'm sorry. Did you say Indeed? Chad: Yes. Joel: Okay. Chad: Yes. Shout out to Indeed for offering listen up kids, transgender employees who want to relocate for care or support a $10,000 benefit to cover their moving relocation expenses. So eligible employees will receive approval to relocate to a state or jurisdiction where they will be able to access the care and support they need. Can you imagine that, we're in the United States of a fucking America and people have to relocate to a state or jurisdiction where they're able to access the care and support they need. Missy Gaither, the VP of DEIB at Indeed said, "Our transgender non-binary and gender non-conforming colleagues are integral to our business and culture at Indeed." In a time when many states in the US are reverting back to 1930s mentality... We'll talk a little bit more about that later. Taking away women's rights, creating obstacles for voters, banning books, wanting to build walls, and not embracing child labor laws. That's the shortlist kids. Government, federal, state, and local who should be protecting their citizens are failing to do so. And instead, companies like Indeed, which I'm giving props to right now, they're actually having to protect their employees one way or another. So you all know I'm not a fan of Indeed, but you gotta give credit where credit is due. Shout out to Indeed for stepping up. Joel: So you brought the red meat on the first one. I'm gonna come with a big lollipop for mine on shout out. So Chad, who doesn't love a little rich girl, Sara Smile or some she's gone by Hall & Oates. Am I right? Well. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: The next time the wifi goes out and the data plan is running dry, you can get your Hall & Oates fix by getting this calling 71926 Oates. That's right. Calling Oates. Calling Oates get it. You get a computerized woman's voice telling you what numbers to press to hear one of four Hall & Oates, great songs. Chad: Very nice. Joel: Why does this exist? Why the hell not? I say. You can go for that. You man eater. Shout out to Callin Oates. [applause] Chad: No, can do. [music] Chad: My next shout out again. Can't believe this kids, but it's still Elon Musk. Apparently Twitter has lost 90% of its value and could be worth just 4 billion compared to the 40 billion Elon paid for it. I guess, advertisers like the MyPillow guy could make up the advertising losses after Elon took over and allowed hate groups back on the platform. Shout out to the Once Rocket ship, now lead balloon we once knew as Twitter. Joel: Have you been to Whataburger? It's the southern thing. It's a Texas thing for sure. Chad: No. Joel: All right. Before there was Five Guys and a lot of the others, there was Whataburger, freshly served, really good custom burgers. Anyway, Whataburger and Texans will know who this is, has opened its first digital kitchen in Austin, Texas. That means it's open 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 364 a year. They are closed on Christmas day because that's how... Chad: Is it flippy in there? I mean, how does this work? Joel: That's how Davey Crockett would've wanted it. The digital kitchen does not have any interior seating areas and customers can only order food through the Whataburger app or the website, and it's no cash, of course. Humans still cook the food, Chad, but let's be honest, that will change eventually. Shout out to Whataburger. The staple of my high school diet was a double, double with jalapenos. You can't go wrong with that and now I'm really hungry. Chad: Well, we've been saying again, Chad and Cheese t-shirts on the socials. And I gotta say kids, if you're out there and you don't know how to get free stuff, we're not just talking about t-shirts. We're talking about t-shirts from JobGet, of course whiskey. That's two bottles of whiskey. One from yours truly, and the other from the Cheese Man, from TextKernel beer, craft beer. Not this bullshit Coors Light or something... None of that, but craft beer from Aspen Tech Labs. All of this delivered straight to your front door, not by Chad and Cheese. We've got UPS and FedEx that does that. But then we have birthdays, oh, kids rum with plum.io. And if you have a birthday... [laughter] SFX: Really? Chad: Guess what? You could win. SFX: Can you feel the tension. Chad: From Plum. SFX: In the air right now? I know I can. I can feel it all the way down in my plums. Joel: That's right, Chad. Another, trip around the sun for some of our listeners. It's a short list today. It's a short list. It's just been big lately so we're gonna crank through these. Alicia Bookler, Alan Bourne, Laura Martinelli, James Ellis, our friends, and Kari Quas all celebrating... SFX: Happy birthday. Joel: Another trip around the sun. Happy birthday to them. Chad: Is it Kari or is it Carrie? Joel: Kari Quas. [music] Joel: Oh man, my liver is scared. Chad: Brought to you by Shaker Recruitment Marketing Kids. That's right. Chad and Cheese Adventures and/or let's say Travel. Next Tuesday, the 12th of September at the Tin Roof on Broadway is the Pre-Rec Fest party. Thanks to our friends at plum.io and Aaron App. Hot chicken on the stick, top shelf booze and music. I mean, it's Nashville, so you're getting music whether you like it or not. But this is the start. This is next week. But remember, if you come to the party, it's a marathon, not a sprint, so don't go getting your ass all crazy hungover for the next day 'cause Wednesday, Joel and I are going to be MCing the Disrupt stage, which is all about technology and tom foolery with our friends, Lynn and Tracy from the newly formed Brash and Boozy podcast. [music] Chad: Apparently they trashed the talent rebel cast, and they're now going with Brash and Boozy, which I like the evolution I like. And then Shelley and Serge from the Recruitment Flex, they're gonna be on stage with us. After that, we've got a post party, we've got an after party. On Thursday, we're gonna finish up Rec Fest and then roll over to the after party Booze Cruise. Thanks to the team at Hackajob. That's right, Hackajob is gonna be there and because of Hackajob, we're gonna have Hattie B's Barbecue. SFX: All right. All right. All right. Chad: And all the booze you can handle. Probably more booze than you can handle, but we're gonna have a lot of booze. Joel: Don't fall off the boat people. Please. Please, everyone has to sign a waiver, which I thought was great. Only a Chad and Cheese party does a waiver need to be signed. Chad: Then we're gonna find ourselves in Vegas. That's right. Two days on the expo hall at HR Tech. Obviously, we're gonna be drinking, eating, doing interviews, and the Fuel 50 booth two days in a row. We gotta thank Fuel 50 for letting us crash at their place in Vegas. So big shout out to Fuel 50. If you want to see us, come to the Fuel 50 booth there at HR Tech, that's gonna be a big show kids. Then a few days later, we're leaving on a jet plane. Don't know when we'll be back again. Yes, we're hopping on a plane for what? Unleash. Unleash World in Paris. If you're a vendor or a practitioner in Europe and you're not going to unleash what's... Joel: What's wrong with you? Chad: What's your problem? What's going on? What's going on here? Seriously, get your ass to Paris. Check out great tech, meeting amazing people, and buy us a drink or two while you're there. All of this wonderful stuff you can find at chadcheese.com/events or just go to chadcheese.com, click the events in the upper right hand corner. And also there's a free link there too if you wanna sign up for free stuff. Joel: Did you say Serge and Shelley are joining us at Rec Fest? SFX: Take off Lee. We're doing our movie. Don't wreck our show, you hoser. Joel: I love it. By the way, Steven McGrath confirmed for Paris baby. Chad: Yes! [music] Joel: Oh, topics. Well, let's start with something we haven't in a while. SFX: Playoff layoffs. Intro: Oh, that's right. Layoffs in the industry. Let's start with the big one first. Our friends at talent.com speaking of Canada formerly Neuvoo headquartered in Quebec, technically Montreal, I believe or specifically Montreal. So talent.com had a big run of layoffs. It's a little unsure about how many, but someone inside told me that it was definitely a bigger cut than the 18% to 20% that happened in April, which by the way, 18-20 is pretty big. So if it's bigger than that, then this is I don't know. I don't wanna say a bomb level layoffs. But this was certainly a big one. Apparently, a lot of sales and customer service teams took a big hit. Remember talent.com took $120 million, spent a lot of money on the talent.com domain. They were supposed to give indeed a run for their money. So far I'd say... [music] Joel: Things aren't going so well at this point on that strategy. As well, layoffs at HackerRank. Our friends at HackerRank said goodbye to 53 employees. Apparently, Atlas laid off 30%. Atlas we don't talk a lot about, but they raised $220 million so far. They laid off 150 people. A company called Join, which I've never heard of, but they were on the list at layoffs.fyi, and Pega Systems, which is a public company laid off 4%, which doesn't sound like a lot, but it did impact 240 people in the process. And that is... SFX: Playoffs. Joel: Layoffs for the week. Chad: I think it's interesting because we always look at some of these other like Indeed competitors and we're like, what are you going to do different? Especially from a product deliverable standpoint for employers to be able to drive revenue. And if you take a look at 'em, I just can't see anything differently. I mean, there are some of like let's say for instance ZipRecruiter. They have fill, that does nothing for me as an employer. That is more of a job seeker experience thing. It's still not something that's huge, big fucking deal. But Talent, what have they done that is revolutionary, innovative, or anything like that, that really differentiates itself from Indeed. I can't think of anything. And if you can't, you can expect to wither and fail, and that's what sucks. I know they're Canadian all, and Canadians aren't the most innovative in the world, but there is some really good tech that's happening out there, and I would expect them to shit or get off the pot, man. Get on that innovation train. Joel: Blackberry's coming back, Chad. Watch what you say about the Canadians and innovation. Blackberry is coming back. Chad: Grim Jones, yeah. Joel: Yeah. All right, let's pivot from that to DEEL, that's D-E-E-L, has come under scrutiny for facilitating financial payments for prop trading companies, which are known for their questionable practices. These prop trading firms struggle to find financial partners, because they promise customers the chance to trade using company capital and share in profits. Out of 21 reviewed prop trading firms, 17 of the 21 used DEEL for payouts, some involving cryptocurrency. DEEL has defended its actions stating that its involvement with these companies accounts for less than 1% of its revenue, and that it conducts KYC, or Know Your Clients checks on all their customers. US regulators may investigate DEEL's role in these transactions. Chad, big deal, little deal, or you see what I did there? No deal. Chad: Atlas, as a matter of fact, one of their competitors we just talked about in layoffs. So when you're in startup land, you're moving fast and you're doing, well, and you're breaking shit, right? But you're doing everything that you can to find customers and drive MRR and ARR. So DEEL has taken nearly $680 million in funding. And at this point, I would assume they are moving fast and breaking as much as they possibly can. Now, I remember back in the early 2000s when we started getting scam jobs on job boards, we weren't ready for that. I mean, we were naive and didn't know how people with malintent would scam people using job postings. Well, we found out. Chad: So back in the day, we started instituting standard operating procedures around who can and who can't post, including some QA, QC to make sure that we were doing it right. This being less than 1% of their revenue should be simple. You just cut away the fat, right? That it's fairly, this is an optics play and it's obviously an issue. If you've ever traveled in the UK, this is for our UK listeners, for our Europe listeners, you'll be used to hearing the phrase, see it, say it, sort it. Joel: That was a horrible British accent, by the way, Chad. Chad: Yeah, I'm not good at it anyway. This just ensures that if somebody sees something wrong, they say something about it and it'll get sorted out. DEEL needs to make, to not make excuses and just get this sorted out. It's not a big deal. It's less than 1% of their revenue and they can easily just chunk this off and say, "Hey, sorry, but have a nice day." Joel: Yeah. My first thought was, holy shit, the information is covering a company in our space that isn't like LinkedIn or Indeed. If you know the information, it's a subscription only site. Most of their stories are like Tesla, Apple, like big brands that we all know. So the fact that they even covered DEEL to me was kind of a big deal and sorry. Go ahead. Chad: 680 million in funding, like a $12 billion valuation. That's why they care. Joel: Yeah. My first sense was that. My second was like, yeah, they're a startup. Startups do stupid shit. It's grow at all costs, especially when you take as much money as you have. The best thing they can do is like come out and say, look, we've parted ways with these organizations. Because if it's 1%, like the PR from it would be worth doing it. And in fact, today, Rippling came out and said that they have cut ways with any prop trading companies that they're doing business with. So... Chad: It's too easy. Joel: Rippling said, "Hey, we're gonna do it. So are you gonna do it?" I gotta think by this week, they will have cut ties with these companies that they're doing business with. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: So DEEL is crushing it, by the way. I think it's worth noting that while so many in our space are either laying off or freezing headcount, DEEL has increased their headcount a 166% in the past six months, 321% in the last year, and over a 1000% in the last two years. Their headcount and assuming that they're making money to justify these headcounts, they are clearly crushing it based on how many people are adding to the company, while many others are cutting back or not doing anything at all. So I think it's worth saying like, yeah, they fucked up, but they are growing like a weed and they are one to watch. When we talk about DEEL, Remote, Oyster, Velocity Global, like all these companies, like who's gonna own this space? DEEL might be in the first place spot, man. Chad: We've gotta remember they've got nearly $700 million in funding. So they might be playing the sugar rush game and we fooled ourselves into believing in late 2020, '21 and some of 2022, that that would be the new norm, and this is killing expectations right now. So we're literally seeing companies like the FAANG companies for the most part, who literally was trying to starve the market by buying up talents and getting talent literally to do nothing. But they were keeping the talent away from their competitors. I don't think that DEEL is doing this, although they could see some fatigue when it comes to that much hiring. There are tons and tons of competitors out there for them now. I thought it was interesting though, in the news that there was a report that they might buy Papaya Global, who also took $444.5 million in funding and have 750 employees. That's the total on LinkedIn. This is gonna be an interesting space to watch. EOR I think is hot. Joel: Yeah. Chad: I really do. Joel: There's a lot of sizzle Chad, let's see if there's states. SFX: 60% of the time, it works every time. Joel: All right, well let's go to a company that we do talk about quite a bit, LinkedIn. A new survey reveals that 91%, I said 91% of female LinkedIn users experience unwelcome advances, resembling Tinder-like encounters. Many women confront senders, but it affects their LinkedIn activity in a negative way. Some women have left LinkedIn due to the issue, and they suggest increasing awareness, stricter guidelines, and bans for repeat offenders. LinkedIn expressed concern and urged reporting such behavior, Chad, what are your thoughts? Chad: Have you ever had this happen to you on LinkedIn? Has anybody connected with you and then said, hey, and they started getting these stupid, intimate types of catfishing conversations. Joel: They're usually from Ukraine and their account is banned a week later 'cause they're probably not a real person. Chad: Exactly. I understand there's a much different expectation for your experience on LinkedIn versus Grindr, Tinder and hell at this point, even Twitter right now, but it's still the internet. I receive requests like that on LinkedIn about five times a month that are total bullshit catfishing. I used to not look at the person's profile before connecting because I thought, eh, any connection's a good connection, right? Yeah. No, not in 2023. It's not. Joel: Yeah. Chad: I've had women or people posing to be women start intimate chats right out of the gate. And I've also had proud boys-like people connect with me and the next thing I know I have all this radical bullshit in my feed. My suggestion is don't click the LinkedIns, just focus like on any other social network on taking a look at who is asking to connect first and foremost. And then if you do connect and have this issue report or block 'em. And in this story that this lady was talking about, the first thing the guy asked is, okay, what's your bra size? Screenshot that shit, put it on LinkedIn and shame the fuck outta that dude. Seriously, public shaming is probably one of the best ways to get these fuckers to quit acting like assholes. Joel: Yeah. So my first thought was, and Twitter/X wants to be the next LinkedIn. You think this is a problem on LinkedIn? Wait till X? Chad: No. Joel: Doing some shit like this. The other thing was like, why doesn't an all female LinkedIn exist? How come no one's thought of that? Like, no men. Chad: Bumble, Bumble Buzz... Joel: Men could be on Bumble Buzz. Yeah. Chad: Bumble Bizz. Joel: Yeah, I don't know that there's a... Chad: Don't they have to be invited on or no? Joel: The dating site. Chad: Ah, okay. Joel: I've been out of it too long. But the dating site is, the women initiate the conversation. Chad: Yes. Yeah. Joel: Bumble Buzz. Bumble Biz. Chad: Bizz, Bizz yeah. Joel: Yeah. I think it's male female. Anyone can look, it's a separate app, but there's no all female like, fairy God boss kind of could do it, but they didn't. So anyway, those were two thoughts that came to my head. The wife and I went to go see 'Barbie' recently, and I don't think you've seen it yet. Chad: No. Joel: You're one of the only few people in America apparently that haven't. My 13-year-old daughter went to go see it before we did. And so apparently, you get choked up at the end. There's a sad part. Chad: In 'Barbie?' Joel: On 'Barbie.' Yeah. Chad: Jesus. Okay. Joel: I'm sitting there watching 'Barbie' and at the end, my wife, who, if you know my wife pretty tough as nails in terms of showing emotion and crying and she starts tearing up. I'm watching it, what the hell is she... Why? There's no dog dying. There's no parent in the hospital. There's no obvious reason to cry. And when I said, "Honey, you gotta explain to me the ending and why that's such a tear jerker clearly for you." And her response was based, "You don't understand, don't worry about it. It's a woman thing you wouldn't understand." When I thought about this story, I thought women deal with shit, we can't even comprehend the shit... Chad: Constantly, dude. Joel: Day in and day out that women deal with, and we get a Ukrainian prostitute, we laugh it off, but they get this shit every day. Harassment, and what's your bra size. I don't even know what people are saying, but these little microaggressions they gotta deal with every day. It's gotta be... So apparently the 'Barbie' thing was, things haven't changed. Things are tough for women anyway. It's pretty cerebral. Go see 'Barbie' and tell me what you think about it. But look, yes, you need to be smart about who you connect with. Don't just connect with somebody who wants to connect with you. Do they actually have a profile that makes sense? Are they in your arena of profession? Don't be an idiot when you connect with people. I think that verifying accounts is a good step forward for LinkedIn. I think partnering with clear... Chad: Have you done the clear thing yet? Joel: I have. I have. Chad: Yeah, me too. Joel: Getting some kind of verified will help this process... This is a big deal for LinkedIn. Look, according to this survey, 75% of the respondents found that the relentless flirtations were too much to bear and either limited their use or left the network entirely. If you have a user base that 74% say they are mad enough to stop using your service or use it a lot less, that's a major problem that they need to figure out. So have harder restrictions, put people in timeouts, have better spam filters, have algorithms like, if you literally put, what's your bra size in a message that LinkedIn says, hey, wait a second, there's some potentially aggressive language in this message. Do you really want to send it? Guys are dumb. Making them think like, oh, wait a minute, I said something really stupid that might offend somebody, may decrease the number of stupid messages and aggressive messages that go out. So LinkedIn can do a lot more stuff, and I'm saying it's important enough to them. This isn't 2% of their users, this is a huge amount of users. And this is a blind spot that they need to cover, and I hope that they make efforts in the future to whether algorithmically, verification-wise, education, whatever, that this stops, because clearly, we don't understand or comprehend how bad this is for women, and it needs to stop. Chad: Now, here's the thing for me, is I don't wanna see women leave the platform. Don't allow these assholes to drive you off. I mean, report them, block them, screenshot, shame them, do those kinds of things, because without you in the workforce, or in those types of social networks, literally, we're half as good as we could be. Joel: I think it's a stretch to expect women to shame men publicly on the platform. Chad: Why? If you're acting like an asshole. Joel: Again, I'm not a woman, I'm not a woman, but like... Chad: I know. Joel: Does it open you up for, oh, what a bitch, or way to go, Karen, or I mean, again, I'm not a woman, but I would think, oh, it's much easier to just ignore, block, get the hell off the platform. Chad: Can you imagine how many women, 74% of the women who are actually already experiencing that right now, they need to know that it's happening to other women. If they see that happening, almost guarantee that you would actually have a groundswell of other women saying, that's bullshit. If they are experiencing it, they need to know that somebody else is experiencing it too. Joel: Yeah, but most women aren't warriors like that. They just wanna go on and network and be like... Chad: Women are fucking warriors, dude. Women are fucking warriors. They're just a much more silent warriors than our dumb asses. Joel: Most just wanna move on with their lives. Now, what would be interesting is if LinkedIn put out a most wanted page of douchiest dudes on the platform where you could access, and LinkedIn called out these people. That won't happen either, but that would be a fun compromise, I guess. Chad: It would, it would. Stay on the platform. Joel: Yeah, don't leave. That's... Chad: Don't leave. Joel: Don't quit. Don't leave us. Chad: Don't you quit me. Joel: Some of us are okay. Some of us are all right. All right, Chad. So much for AI replacing Gordon Ramsay. A New Zealand supermarket's AI meal planning app generated unusual and potentially dangerous recipes, including chlorine gas, poisoned bread sandwiches, a mosquito repellent roast potato. The app created by Pak'nSave, originally aimed to help users creatively use leftovers, but led to unexpected and concerning recommendations. Yeah, you think poisoned bread sandwiches is concerning? Yeah. The app's terms and conditions state that users should be over 18 and that recipes are not reviewed by humans or guaranteed to be safe or balanced. They would be sued out of their lives if they were in the US. New Zealand must have much, much more lenient legal rules. And you wonder why I choose Chipotle. SFX: Oh my God, I love Chipotle. Chipotle is my life. Joel: What's your take on this AI nightmare in the kitchen? Chad: Yeah, to think that Ts and Cs, right? The terms and conditions are actually like a get out of jail free card for poisoning people. That to me is fucking ridiculous. I think it's about time we start performing QA/QC on these large language models before somebody dies maybe. The attorney that used ChatGPT for remarks and then got nailed with a fine because the AI hallucinated and made shit up should have been a shot heard around the world. So do your fucking research. You can't let these things around loose without supervision. And that's apparently what's happening. It's ridiculous that this could even happen. And again, we just talked about deal, being a startup, so on and so forth, but yeah, they're not poisoning people. Joel: This sounds like the worst Brothers Grimm fairy tale ever, like witches serving poisoned bread and mosquito repellent roast potatoes. Yeah, this is a real story. Look, the supermarket expressed disappointment and pledged to improve controls, emphasizing that users must exercise their judgment when using the app. Again, it's not our fault people, we'll check it out, but this is really on you guys, part of this. Look. Chad: Yeah, it's your fault. Joel: Yeah, don't blindly just do what the machines, the AI tells you to do. Chad: Please God. Joel: Don't just click serve and like the lawyer got pinched. I don't know if he got disbarred or not. Chad: No, he should have. Joel: Hallucinations, especially if it's something you're putting in your body or something you're putting in someone else's body. Like don't just blindly listen to the AI. They're not infallible, they make mistakes and this is a perfect example. This is going to make its way into employment and hiring and recruitment and retention. Some story like this is coming, and I can't wait for it because it's gonna be great podcast content. Well, from one horrible story to the next. Joel: In Colorado's San Luis Valley, the clash between the demand for cheap labor and child labor protection laws has drawn some attention. Children as young as 12 are working in agriculture, especially in the lettuce fields alongside adult laborers, many of whom are Hispanic and Latino. Some Republican-led states have been seeking to roll back child labor protection laws, making it easier for children age 14 to 17 to work longer hours and in previously off-limit jobs. But Colorado already allows children to work in agriculture. Child labor in agriculture is a concern with frequent injuries and fatalities reported. Chad, your thoughts on child labor in America? Chad: So the Fair Labor Standards Act was enacted in 1938. 19 fucking 38. So back in the 1930s, is this what Making America Great is all about? I mean, child labor? This is from the New Jersey Monitor. Arkansas, Iowa, New Jersey, and New Hampshire have enacted legislation to weaken America's child labor protections at the state level and lawmakers in at least another eight states have introduced similar laws, outstanding investigations, including the deaths of three 16 year olds in Mississippi, Missouri, and Wisconsin, including a Guatemalan boy who was killed working in a poultry plant. A boy who was killed in a sawmill, and one working in a landfill site. So people are asking, here in our country and outside of the country, why is this happening in America today in 2023, not 1923? Chad: Well, here's the dynamics that I'm seeing. Rich white people, white nationalists, let's say, don't want immigrants in the country because America is already estimated to be predominantly non-white by the year 2040. So, but the immigrants, which this nation was built on, by the way, they performed some of the most backbreaking jobs in America since the number of immigrants will be lower if we keep them out, we're gonna need a workforce. So send in the poor kids. Iowa has the most radical new law designed to roll back child labor protections. It allows children as young as 14 to work in meat coolers and industrial laundries. And teens, 15 and older can work on assembly lines around dangerous machinery. Iowa Governor Kim Reynolds should be forced to send her grandkids into these jobs first. 'Cause I guaran-fucking-tee you, nobody that she knows or none of her family are going to have kids working in these jobs. Keep the immigrants out, have the poor kids do the job. This is fucking ridiculous. And it's horrible because it's the haves and have nots. Joel: So I have farmers in my family, let's say. My aunt, uncle, farmer, my grandfather, very typical in Indiana. Midwest. And I had two cousins, one was older, one was younger, and both of them were driving tractors at around 12, 13 years old. Like big ass John Deere tractors. And I was the "city kid" who couldn't drive till he was 16. So it was very odd to me that these young kids could drive tractors and work on the farm. Well, America has this rich history of like, the family farm, agriculture, puritan sort of history. And then in a perfect puritan world, it makes sense to let the 12 year old work on the farm, milk cows, feed the pigs. Like it's a vision of America that I think a lot of people have. Joel: Unfortunately, these laws have now been skewed and bent to allow non-family, 12 year olds, 13, 14, and younger, to work on these farms. And these laws haven't been changed because it used to be, well, if you're working on the farm, then you could be younger than if you worked in a normal job. So the laws in a lot of these states are antiquated and haven't been updated in forever. So it's sort of a loophole that farm these plus you have these big factory farms, the family farm of the olden days has mostly gone by the wayside in America. Joel: Look, we talked about how AI is a potential mess of society with your recipes in New Zealand. This is where AI and automation definitely can help come into play. If machines are picking lettuce and crops, we don't need kids or adults to do the dangerous work and the incredibly hard work that's there. Now, we can't flip a switch and automate everything. Farmers live on borrowed money paying. I mean, it's a tough business. So it's not like they have all the money in the world to just buy robots to then start this. I think you need to have a balanced government, human, AI, hybrid, increase immigration, legal immigration. I mean, stop sending immigrants to Martha's Vineyard and send them to Iowa. Send them to Colorado. And then you need to pay them a living wage, pay them, like have a $25 minimum wage. So they don't have to be in a situation where all the kids have to work because I'm not making enough money. If the parents are making enough money, then the kids don't have to work. Chad: Now. You're just making sense. Joel: Then they can go to school and be productive citizens. And then also maybe increase investment or government, I don't wanna say subsidies, but encourage innovation around farming. Whether that's by tax, tax breaks or grants that go into agriculture to create more startups in this space. I think there's a really great sort of partnership between government, technology and everything come together. Anyway, you get where I'm going with this. We all need to come together. I don't think it's gonna happen. This is America. Shit is gonna be fucked up. But in a perfect world, all these things would happen and we wouldn't have children working as basically slaves. I mean, let's be honest. I mean, this is a new form of slavery for the most part. Chad: It is. Well, and again, it goes beyond the farm. It's the saw mill. It's the poultry factories. It's the slaughter houses. Joel: Yeah. Slaughter houses. Chad: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, these are things that were happening in the 1920s, 1930s, and we made laws to stop this shit because kids were dying. And yet we're reverting back to that now. And we've got these assholes, like in Iowa, this governor in Iowa who is saying, we should roll all this back. It doesn't make any sense. Hell, Newt Gingrich said this shit years ago. Well, guess what? Put your fucking family in those jobs. As soon as you do that, we can start to have the conversation until then, shut the fuck up. Joel: You can't have your cake and eat it too, Chad. You can't have your Chipotle and eat it too. Let's end with a little football, Chad. NFL legend Tom Brady. The GOAT... Chad: TB12. Joel: Undeniably, is set to become a strategic advisor to your favorite Delta Airlines. In this partnership, Brady will appear in Delta's marketing efforts and assist in creating "Teamwork tools for the airline's employees. He will also share insights on greatness, resilience, excellence, and team performance." Delta CEO, Ed Bastian expressed enthusiasm for the collaboration. Some fans have expressed skepticism about Brady's qualifications in the airline industry. Just 'cause he throws footballs doesn't mean he knows about airlines. While others noted his busy retirement schedule, including signing a significant contract with Fox Sports and investing in sports teams. Details about the duration and compensation of Brady's advisory role are yet to be disclosed. Chad, what do you think about this news TB and your favorite airline getting together? Chad: We just talked about Tom Brady buying like or buying into a premier league team, right? And it was like, first off, did you not see welcome to Wrexham? You're buying the wrong side of the spectrum. You should be buying on the bottom, like Ryan and Rob did. Just watch the show, you'll get it. So he did that wrong. And then now, I think Delta's doing, other than really just the bright, shiny face and having the GOAT to be able to take through the halls of Delta every now and again, they obviously have money to spend, they should probably be putting that toward their people in training and making sure their shit's tight. I know as a Delta platinum kind of guy. Joel: It's fair to say you're a fanboy, isn't it? You're a fanboy of Delta. Chad: I do like Delta, but I don't like, this is the stupidest way to spend your money. Joel: Yeah, yeah. Chad: If you're going to spend it, spend it on your employees who give better service to the people who are actually spending money with you. This, to me, does nothing for me as somebody who spends a shit ton of cash with Delta. Joel: So from Oscar the Grouch, remember that story from, I think united as a spokesperson to Tom Brady? Like airlines have lost their minds, apparently. So this is messed up on so many levels. When was the last time Tom Brady flew commercial? He's been flying private jets since 1999. How about the diversity message or the anti-diversity message on this? Like, was Serena not available to at least maybe co-sponsor or co-delegate of the company? Chad: Jerry Rice. I mean... Joel: I'm looking at Tom Brady with Delta's CEO on CNBC. And it's like watching an episode of 'Mad Men'. Like, they're ready to head off to their two martini lunch after the interview. It screams vanity project. It screams like, hey, I'm the CEO. I want to hang out with famous football players. And I can't afford a team. So I'm just going to buy the next best thing, which is a player. This is clearly feeding Delta's CEO's apparent man crush. Yeah, wrong on so many levels. I like Delta for the most part. I hated the fact that they made me run through Atlanta's airport with you and almost have a heart attack. But more or less, it's one of the better airlines out there. Chad: It's always a great story, though. Joel: Yeah, yeah. And oh, yeah. Fuck Michigan, because Brady went to Michigan. The NFL is back, baby. Fantasy football is back. Chad: Yes. Joel: For you and Nashville, rest in peace, Jimmy Buffett. We out... Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. A valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell. Enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey or just watch big booty Latinas and Bug Fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now, go take a shower and wash off all the guilt. But save some soap, because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

Newbies in recruiting have a hard time understanding the time when newspapers ruled the world of work and finding talent. Gannett was one of those world rulers. Maybe you know USA Today, for example? Anyway, technology has forced them to evolve to survive, and they sometimes play an invaluable role for employers looking to attract Human Resources. That’s why we had to get Anna Brekka, Director Recruitment Strategy at Gannett | USA TODAY NETWORK, on the pod. Anna is an industry veteran with a robust understanding of the business, so you’d be wise to put on your thinking cap while you listen. Yeah, she brings data to the party too. (By the way, this one isn’t just for the kids; it’s an awesome trip down memory lane for the gray hairs too.) PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. TRANSCRIPTION COMETH

Looking to celebrate Labor Day with some labor-focused news? Then you’ve come to the right place. Twitter taking on the world of workA with X Hiring is officially official as Elon Musk trash talks LinkedIn. Indeed is flexing its muscle expanding Indeed Flex into storefront locations in Texas. Two startups - TeamSense vs. Nursa - battle it out in a game of Who’d Ya' Rather? Amazon’s CEO is whipping employees back into the office after supporting a very relaxed policy since Covid, and airlines are making life a little easier for travelers who enjoy a little peace and quiet, while making things less comfortable for plus-sized trekkers. Plus, we update you on iCIMS exiting CEO, upcoming parties and “masterdating.” TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps companies strengthen their workforce and broaden their market reach by hiring talent in the disability community. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. [music] Joel: Oh, yeah! It's National Lazy Mom's Day. So give your mom a much deserved break from your typical bullshit, you son of a bitch. You are listening to the Chad and Cheese Podcast. This is your co-host, Joel, every day is Lazy Day Cheesman. Chad: And this is Chad, Edisto Island, here I come, Sowash. Joel: And on this week's show, LinkedIn cringes, Indeed flexes and Amazon summons your ass back to the office. Let's do this. Holiday weekend Chad. Holiday weekend. Chad: Hitting the airport and that so how often do you fly out of Louisville Airport? Joel: Once a decade. Chad: Yeah? Okay. Joel: Very few times. Cincinnati more than Louisville. Chad: Yeah. It's much closer, obviously to me. Indianapolis Airport is 45 minutes away from me. Cincinnati is an hour and a half and Louisville about an hour and 15. So you get a chance to kinda like pick the one that you want, but you coming that far south is... I didn't think that was normal. Joel: Well, here's what's going on for people that don't talk to me on a regular basis. My wife is a huge Pearl Jam fan. Pearl Jam is touring for the first time in a few years, and they're hitting a limited number of cities. Now they're shockingly hitting Indianapolis, which is nice. Which is next weekend. So I will be seeing them then. My wife is out of town, so we have to go to Minneapolis to fit our schedules to go see Pearl Jam. So I have family in the Louisville area. Chad: Yeah. Joel: We're dropping the six-year-old off at my niece's, who has I think a 10-year-old and a two-year-old. So he'll get some kid time while we fly out from Louisville, to Minneapolis, and then fly back to Louisville, pick up the kid, drive back up to Indy, and call it a weekend. So that's why... Chad: Nice. Joel: Louisville is not necessarily more friendly to direct flights to Minneapolis. Chad: No. Direct flights to anywhere, but yeah, I'm throwing the clubs in the plane and going to Edisto Island, which is in South Carolina. Gonna meet my cousin there who loves to golf. We're gonna swing the clubs and have a great long weekend. Friday, Saturday, Sunday, come back Monday. Joel: I know there's a hurricane. I assume it's at least touching South Carolina. Are you watching the weather? Is it death and destruction that you're flying into? Or has it mostly passed? Chad: No. It was passed. Matter of fact, I read an article this morning that, Edisto's cleanup isn't really considered a cleanup, so that makes me feel better. Hopefully, that's the same for the golf courses as well. Joel: Yeah. Yeah. Weather report looks good then. Chad: Oh, weather report looks amazing for this weekend. So pretty stoked. Yeah. After a hurricane moves through, generally everything opens up. Joel: Yeah. Fortunately for me, it looks like Minneapolis in the beginning of September is gonna be in the '90s. Which is a really strange thing. SFX: No. God. No, God, please. No. No. Joel: Fortunately the concert is indoors, so it's not too big of a deal. SFX: Shout out. Chad: So, while you're in Minneapolis, are you spending any time with Brian Provost at all? 'Cause that's where he is at. Joel: No, I'm not. Chad: Okay. Joel: I tried, I tried. We both know, Bigfoot, Toby Dayton, who makes occasional appearances. I hit him up. Apparently he broke his foot or, but so yeah, he was gonna go to the concert. We were gonna connect but that's not gonna happen. Chad: Just didn't happen. Joel: If Provost if you're listening, and you're gonna go see Pearl Jam. [laughter] Joel: Hey, hit me up. We'll get a selfie and blow up the socials for sure. Chad: The socials. Okay. So here's a post, and this is an update on Brian Provost. If everybody's been paying attention, which I'm sure you have. He is the now former CEO of iCIMS. This is a post that Brian actually put out last week after we did our show. "Yes, it's true. I decided to move on from iCIMS. This was a difficult decision as iCIMS is an amazing business with an incredible team. However, after a much introspection," that's internal, that's you're looking in inner space, Sir Joel. "I felt it was the best decision for me and my family at this time." Obviously, to get the fuck out. This is where it gets weird. Joel: Yep. Chad: "There are always several factors that play a role in leaving a business, but one of the biggest was commuting as a remote CEO on a weekly basis. I love being with a team and collaborating in an office." He lives in Minnesota commutes to New Jersey. "ICIMS is absolutely heading in the right direction, and I have every confidence," yada, yada, yada. "As for what I'll do next, I'll be working that over in the coming weeks and months. I'll let you know when I know." So what did you think about this? Joel: Well, Minnesota, as you know Chad is the land of lakes. Chad: Okay. Joel: I believe 10,000 lakes is their claim to fame. It's probably not exactly 10,000, but lakes have a lot of dead fish in them and dead fish tend to stink. And this whole thing stinks to me. If you didn't like remote work, at least have a plan before you leave. Have a new CEO, have an interim CEO. Chad: It's weird. Joel: Have something there. Don't just leave because you don't like the commute. It just doesn't make sense. And it just stinks to high heaven. Chad: It almost feels like all the CEOs are like making employees come back to the office. It's almost like this CEO was being made to come back to the office and he is like, no, I'm not gonna, I quit. That's what this post makes it sound like. And to be quite frank, I think he would've done himself a better service in not posting anything at all compared to this 'cause this was just weird. Joel: Or just be honest and say, I had a disagreement with the board and I couldn't take it anymore. And I'm out of here. Chad: Either way though, as a CEO, you're gonna have other people looking at what happened. This is just nothing. But again, this is one of the reasons why mature people don't post things on social media, right? 'Cause you can look back later and see what the fuck was going on. To, me, if he's looking for another CEO position, leading an organization, definitely not, what I would have done. But I'm a podcaster. I post everything, so. Joel: It also doesn't bode well if he wants another CEO gig. Chad: No, that's what I mean. Joel: The whole thing is crazy pills, Chad. Chad: Weird. SFX: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Joel: Well, from one crazy to another, Chad, my shout out goes to Masterdating. That's right. Masterdating. Yeah. I hadn't heard of it either. SFX: What are you doing, step bro? Joel: So you're familiar with Masterbating, Chad, but do you know about Masterdating? The term is trending on TikTok. Masterdating is essentially going out on dates by yourself. Why run the risk of rejection and go on a real date when you can always get to a yes from yourself? That's right. Plus, you can ditch the whole ghosting thing that all the kids are talking about. And the best part, Chad, you're guaranteed to get lucky at the end of the night. Shout out to [laughter] Masterdating. That's right. Chad: Humans are so fucking stupid. [laughter] Shout out to GPU recruiting tactics. So this is from an article in SemiAnalysis, "One of the funniest trends we see in the Bay Area is with top machine learning researchers bragging about how many GPUs they have or will have access to soon. Meta, for example, who will have the second most number of Nvidia H100 GPUs in the world is actively using it as a recruiting tactic." That's right, kids. If ML and AI, R&D people don't have access to the newest toys, they'll, they probably won't join your team. And at about $25,000-$30,000 per GPU. That's right, that's the coveted H100 GPU, Google, Meta, and all the other big boys are going to be siphoning that tech, which means they're also going to be siphoning that talent out of the market. Shout out to GPU recruiting tactics. Joel: Okay, let's go to, Nikita Bier for my next shout out. Nikita is the founder of Gas, an app that was popular with the kids for about a minute. They were acquired by Discord earlier this year, but that's not why Nikita gets a shout out. He gets one for blowing up on X. The artist formerly known as Twitter for the following post, "The best way to stay unemployed is to use the Open To Work avatar on LinkedIn." That's right. It's funny because it's true. But it's also good advice, Chad, desperation is a bad luck. A bad luck on anyone. Just go on a masterdate with yourself and ditch the Please Hire Me desperation of the Open To Work avatar. Shout out to Nikita Bier. Chad: Oh, I'm just glad you don't have a sound effects for the Masterdating masturbating. Shout out to Sean Luchins, one of our listeners, guy's been in the industry for a very long time. As a matter of fact, he was just interviewed. We just interviewed him, a couple of months ago. Here's a quote from one of his LinkedIn posts. "There are those pinnacle moments in your career that are just too tough to top. Does it get any better than being blessed? Blessed, Joel, with a Chad and Cheese t-shirt?" Joel: Oh my God. No. Chad: Very tongue in cheek. We know, Sean is probably using that, t-shirt to buff up like his Maserati or something like that. [laughter] But no matter, no matter, Joel, how do you acquire one of these silky soft Chad and Cheese t-shirts? Joel: His Maserati? How do all of our listeners have Maseratis [laughter] and we don't have one apparently. Yes, Chad. Everyone loves free shit and we love giving people stuff. If you like t-shirts, whiskey, beer, you gotta go to ChadCheese.com. Click the free link. We're talking JobGet does our shirts. Textkernel is sending the brown liquid... Chad: Whiskey baby. Joel: Out to people all over the country. And beer, everybody loves beer. It's getting to fall. That means October Fest Brews. That means a little bit more robust flavors, in your, glass, [laughter] that is powered by our friends at Aspen Tech Labs. But you gotta play if you wanna win. Go to ChadCheese.com, click the free link, fill out the information, and you might win. Chad: So you know what time it is? Time for events kids. [music] Chad: Oh, little Love Shack. But that's a little Love RecFest. Day one, the Disrupt stage is going to be off the chain. We're gonna be talking about technology all damn day with Shelley and Serge from The Recruitment Flex and Tracey and Allyn from Talent Rebelcast. But before any of that happens, kids, we have a pre-party, pre-party on September the 12th at Tin Roof on Broadway, powered by plum.io and Aaron. Joel's gonna try to get his Nashville hot chicken fix that night. Probably not a good idea before the first day of the conference, but, hey, you do you Joel? Joel: Hey, they're lollipops. So they're less, potent, I think than the normal ones. Chad: Sure. Sure, they are. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. [laughter] Then we're gonna have obviously all day one on the Disrupt stage. Great lineup of tech and companies using that tech. And then we have the after party on September 14th. It is a booze cruise. Gonna have Hattie B's liquor, beer, and who knows what the hell else. Now there's only gonna be 40 people on that cruise, so if you get a VIP invitation, you better fucking RSVP. If not, it might go away very soon. That's powered by our friends over at Hackajob. This whole thing has come together so quickly, Joel. RecFest is just a machine. Joel: Machine of debauchery. And people that want party. Chad: Oh, it's crazy. So what do you think about RecFest... SFX: Alright. Alright. Chad: In Nashville, year one. Joel: I think it's great. Look in in all transparency, we've heard differing perspectives on how this is gonna go. We've heard people say like, eh, I don't know if anyone's gonna go. It's been kind of quiet. And then we've also heard shit's gonna sell out. And from our own experience, these two parties get togethers that we're throwing have filled up incredibly fast. Much more than I thought they would. So it all unfolds in Nashville. We're gonna find out for ourselves in person how this is gonna go on September 12th through the 14th. I'm optimistic. I think it's gonna be a blowout. I think it's gonna be a statement. It's gonna be a British are coming moment, with RecFest coming to Nashville, and I'm here for it, Chad. I'm here for it. Chad: I have to say one of the cynics that you and I know very closely, they're going to be there. They got their eyes on the list, on the attendee list. Joel: Okay. Chad: And they said it is hella impressive. Joel: Okay. Okay. Chad: Yes. He was a cynic saying, I don't know if this is gonna go well. And then I got a message from him yesterday. He said, holy shit, this looks impressive. So I am pretty excited about that. After RecFest, we're gonna hit a little HR Tech gonna be on the expo floor in the Fuel50 booth for two days. If you're an HR practitioner, DM us and we might have an interview slot just in case. We're Booth 1125. That's 1125. Joel: That's a lot of booths. Chad: Then a few days later, we are on a plane to UNLEASH World in Paris. I literally have no fucking clue what we're gonna do there, but I guarantee you we're gonna have microphones. We're gonna have a lot of wine and cheese and who knows what else? Joel: Well, considering how quickly RecFest became like the Chad & Cheese Party Central, Paris may follow a similar suit. I don't know. Chad: Yes. Joel: If you're a vendor looking for a creative way to, you know, cut through the clutter, like, give us a call. Give us a call. Chad: We can help. Joel: Did I hear you say Plum earlier? Chad: Oh, I did. SFX: Really? Did you feel the tension in the air right now? Chad: Oh I did. Yeah. SFX: I know I can. I can feel it all the way down in my plum. Joel: Oh yeah. That means we gotta celebrate some birthdays, Chad. Another trip around the sun to Olivia Marquette, Shani Underwood, Matt O'Donnell, Ettel Feinberg, Scott Nelson, Stacy Shaw, Matt Gardner, Marcy Darth Maul, Rosie Pullman. That sounds made up to me. Rosie Pullman, Deb Play, Charles Hunger, Chris Billets, Chris Hoyt, Bill Borman, who will be in Nashville. I know Chris Murdoch, who lives in Nashville celebrating a birthday. And last but not least, Chad, my oldest son, Cole Cheeseman... Chad: Cole Cheeseman. Joel: Is celebrating a birthday, turning 17... Chad: Nice. Joel: This week. So... SFX: Happy birthday. Joel: To everyone for a happy birthday. Chad: Did you say Rosie Pullman. Joel: I said Rosie Pullman. Yes. That's woo. Chad: That's Seymour Butts. I mean, come on seriously. Somebody's fucking with us. Joel: Yeah. I did not, I did not double check that on LinkedIn to see if that's the case, good God. I got, and if birthdays weren't enough, Chad, let's talk about some fantasy football action. That's right. People are aware that we're doing fantasy football. This is our third or fourth year doing it, powered by our friends at FactoryFix. The lineup is set. Here's your Dirty Dozen, Chad, Fantasy Football players, starting with Dennis Tupper, who is our defending champion. Chad: Yes. Joel: He gets a free pass to play this season again, Deanne Osner, Jasper Spanjaart, Marcy Maul, Brent Locey, Michelle Sergeant, Kristin Airbone, Dean Apero, Jill Patterson, you and me, and the FactoryFix representative, Joe Dixon. That is the fantasy football lineup everybody. Chad: Hoo. Joel: I'm excited. Draft is next Wednesday. Thursday when we record this, we'll have our draft grades and we'll break down, who scored well and who fail on their butts. Yeah. It's all happening everybody. SFX: And topics! Joel: All right. The cringe level is high on this first story, Chad. It's official. It's officially official. Get ready for hiring on X. Again, the artist formerly known as Twitter, case in point, an Elon Musk tweet. I guess we're still calling them tweets, saying, "People send me LinkedIn links sometimes, but the cringe level is so high that I just can't bring myself to use it. So I ask for the resume or bio to be emailed. We will make sure that the X competitor to LinkedIn is cool." What's more, Coinbase public company is leveraging the platform now, and the final nail in the coffin is a new Twitter handle or X handle, @Xhiring with the post this week, "Unlock early access to the X hiring beta exclusively for verified organizations. Feature your most critical roles and organically reach millions of relevant candidates. Apply for the beta today at verified.X.com/en/hiring." They could have shortened that probably. Chad... Chad: I don't think. Joel: Elon, Coinbase, and a new handle, I think that's a triple X. What's your take on this news? Chad: It still feels like Facebook jobs all over again. This is very early on kids. So, you know, as what we're talking about, I'm sure will evolve and I hope will evolve. But first, let's look at the desktop version. I had to look twice to even see where the very muted jobs carousel was. And on, this is on Coinbase's account. They had just three jobs in the carousel. You could click on those jobs, obviously, or you could click View All Jobs, which is a link that takes you to a long list of Coinbase's jobs. There's no search functionality. I mean, it's fairly primitive compared to what we're used to, right? So again, it's very, very early on, but let's be clear, 80% of users access Twitter via their mobile device. So I popped over to Twitter on my phone, jumped onto the Coinbase profile and nothing. The carousel isn't even available on Android. So that was weird. Twitter's a global platform. You would think that would be something that they would dig into pretty quickly, especially if they're trying to make this look serious. Chad: But I think that any company should go to the application. It's a simple form and it can't hurt to get your jobs out there. But again, I'm gonna double down on what I've said. LinkedIn has much more content, context, experience for my profile than any other out there and they still do a shitty job on trying to get me relevant content. Twitter doesn't have even close to the amount of information, career information, jobs, pathing, experience, those types of things. I don't see how they're going to pull this off. Somebody in the threads actually said, "Well, I'm sure they'll have an API with LinkedIn." Really? You think so? I don't fucking think so, right? So there's gonna be a war happening here. I personally think that this X hiring thing is gonna go to the way of the dodo much like Facebook jobs did. SFX: 60% of the time it works every time. Joel: LinkedIn, however, doesn't send rockets into space, Chad. There's a big difference between the two. Chad: Yeah. Which means he's got diversions. Joel: So here's some shit here. Elon has 155 million followers. Everything he says gets talked about on LinkedIn. He paid 40-plus billion dollars for Twitter. LinkedIn was acquired for Microsoft for 26 billion-ish. So if Elon's looking for a quick way to chip away at getting his money back on what he dropped to get Twitter, targeting LinkedIn is probably the shortest bridge to try to get there adding to the fact that a lot of people hate LinkedIn, the incumbent, and you have more favorable odds than say, I don't know, going after Google for search. Do you wanna say the guy who took on Detroit and is winning the EV battle can't put a dent in LinkedIn and make some noise in our industry? Time will tell, Chad, but it's clear that he's serious now and it's gonna be a lot of fun for us to cover Twitter, X, whatever you wanna call it, getting into our space. Chad: Yeah. I think it's interesting because what Elon really did was he forced the entire automotive industry to focus on EV and they're going to blow Tesla out of the water in long-term, right? Unless somebody actually buys them up. Joel: We'll see. Chad: I think this is exactly the same thing. LinkedIn does suck at what they should be really good at. I think this is gonna be an opportunity for them to be challenged and hopefully actually up their game much like the car companies have on the EV side of the house. Joel: Yeah. Chad: I think Twitter is much more hated than LinkedIn is at this point. Joel: It's X now, Chad. [laughter] Chad: I'm gonna call it Twitter no matter what. Because it's so divisive, right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: So I think, I think there is an entertainment value there, but it's not a professional network. I don't wanna say it's like Hinge or what was it last week? Joel: Grindr. [laughter] Chad: Grindr. Yeah. Like Grindr, right? They're used for entirely different reasons. LinkedIn was created as a network, then turned into a professional network. I don't see that happening here, I just don't. And the cost might go up, but the current get-in fee is a $1,000 a month to be a verified organization. Joel: Yep. Chad: That's only $12,000. That's cheap as fuck. Joel: A lot of companies are gonna do this. Do you agree? Chad: Yes, yes, yes. Joel: They're gonna try it. Yeah. They're gonna see what happens. Chad: But it doesn't matter just because the price point's so low that it's not gonna pay off. He needs to try to gain back hundreds of millions of dollars that he's lost in ad revenue and this isn't gonna do it. Not even close. Joel: Yeah. I mean, I'm no mathematician, but if you follow the money, if advertisers are leaving in droves and there's no hope of them coming back anytime soon, like to go after LinkedIn, share the pie is probably the smartest thing to do in terms of getting money fast. This is not a $100 billion business a year, but if he can start getting some money back, if he can start getting some subscriptions, some people that are used to paying money on a monthly basis, he can slowly ratchet up the price. If he gets results for these people, they'll continue to use it. If he adds value to being a subscriber, whether it's on the individual end, whether it's like, hey, get special access to jobs or get a resume if you're... I don't know where this is gonna go. That's why it's so fun to talk about it, but he's gonna get companies try it. He's gonna get companies become verified users... Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: And post jobs. Chad: Yeah, yeah. Joel: And if people apply and people get results, well, money is gonna start going into Twitter or X, and agencies are gonna be told or asked like, "Hey, are we on Twitter? Like, should we use Twitter or X to post our jobs?" Like, it's just gonna be a lot of fun to talk about. Facebook never felt really committed. It felt like a project manager was on it. This is like the CEO talking shit on his own social platform and to me, that ratchets it up a little bit and it makes it just tons of fun to talk about. Chad: As soon as he gets in a cage against Mark Zuckerberg after he was talking all that shit, then I might think that anything else that he's talking shit about is actually real. This I just... It feels like, it feels like a diversion. Joel: You watch. There's gonna be a story about him poaching someone from LinkedIn or Indeed or somewhere. Like that's coming. That'll be one of the next stories that we talk about. And speaking of Indeed, Chad. Chad: Oh, yes. Joel: If you've had your daily dose or weekly dose of Elon, we'll talk about our next guilty pleasure, Indeed. Chad: Yes. Joel: So in case you missed it, Indeed Flex is a platform that connects job seekers with temporary work opportunities. It is a subsidiary of Indeed and it now offers storefronts. That's right. Brick and mortar locations. Chris Johnson, market director at Indeed Flex shared the following on LinkedIn this week, "Great few days in Texas visiting the Indeed Flex hubs and meeting the teams who make it all happen. Loving the energy and passion for change here. I'm definitely right where I need to be." Maybe it's where Chris Johnson needs to be, but is it where Indeed needs to be? Chad, your thoughts? Chad: So, yeah, congrats Chris. That's fucking awesome. I thought this was a very poignant story as we start to see companies like Appcast acquire Bayard, which means one day Appcast is a solid partner. And the next day they're your greatest competitor. Joel: Yep. Chad: We've seen this with Indeed before, and it's happening once again. So here's how Indeed is currently smothering the market. First, we're gonna talk about their trusted network partners. Indeed pays trusted network partners, millions of dollars each month to deliver job seeker traffic to jobs on Indeed. Yes, competing job sites are driving tons of job seeker traffic to Indeed, but the money is good. So job sites keep doing it then Indeed adds mandatory job seeker registration to their apply process. What does this mean? It means Indeed is building their database with job seekers from those competing job sites until they don't need those job sites anymore and then they cut them off at the knees. They're strangling the job sites. Joel: Yep. Chad: Same thing is happening over at Indeed Flex, but [chuckle] in a much different way. Staffing and RPO companies are spending millions of dollars monthly on Indeed. Not the other way around, to drive job seekers to their open positions. Indeed then uses the money to drive job seekers from other sites like we just talked about to apply on Indeed. The staffing and RPO companies, get the job seeker data for all the applicants, but so does Indeed and now Indeed Flex. So basically Indeed is using the likes of Randstad and Adecco's money to build their own candidate database to place those candidates through staff-mark. Joel: Yep. Chad: You've got to remember, Recruit Holdings is a staffing company first. Joel: Yep. Chad: So I was texting with a practitioner about Indeed continuing to move down this path, and their response to my Trojan horse comment was this, "Oh no. No more Trojan horses. They, Indeed, just put on a Trojan condom and they're gonna fuck everybody over." [laughter] Chad: How do you really feel HR? How do you really feel? [applause] Joel: That's good. That's good. Yeah. I'm giving this the evil genius [laughter] badge for the week. Indeed is owned by staffing companies. You mentioned it. Chad: How stupid is everybody else? Joel: We've talked about them becoming more staffing-focused in the past. Well, shocker. They acquired a company called Syft, a UK-based staffing platform in 2019, and Flex was born two years later out of that. Chad: Crazy. Joel: Indeed Flex is expanding into the US market and growing further into the UK where it's former company Syft has been available since 2015. So they have a little bit of experience in this space. And the United States, the labor shortage is even more serious, and the openings rate reached 6.9% as of July last year. To me, this is a logical brand extension. The power of Indeed will supercharge awareness. It's something Google, LinkedIn, or Elon Musk have no desire to chase. It's solid strategically. So I don't say this a lot, but Indeed, Good move. They just need to improve the signage on these storefronts, because they look like some intern went down to the clearance rack at FASTSIGNS for this branding. Chad: Yes. You are right. You're right. Joel: So they need to improve the branding. Going in looks fine, but they look like Bush League retailers from the outside. But I think they're onto something. Chad: I agree. I just, it blows my mind that huge companies like Randstad and Adecco are still paying Indeed millions of dollars a month, right? They've got that going on on one side, and then you've got the other side of the ecosystem. All these job sites are driving candidates into the Indeed database. Now Indeed's paying them to do so. But they're gonna cut them all off at the knees one day 'cause they don't need fuckin them anymore. It's, I mean, it is a Trojan horse or a Trojan condom fucking all the way around. It is crazy. Joel: And we've seen this movie before. We've seen this movie before. Chad: We have. SFX: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Joel: All right, let's take a quick break and we'll play a little Who'd You Rather? SFX: Just the team. Joel: When we come back. All right, Chad, are you ready to play a little? Who'd You Rather? Here's how we play it, gang. Chad: Yeah. Yeah. Joel: We take two companies that have recently gotten funding. We summarize what they've done and what they're doing and Chad and I sound off on who'd we'd rather. Let's play, Who'd You Rather? In this corner, we have TeamSense. Seattle-based startup TeamSense has raised $4 million. TeamSense offers an app-free platform tailored for hourly workers in the manufacturing sector, enabling them to manage attendance, communicate with managers and access company resources through SMS or text messaging. The funding will be used to expand the development and go-to market teams. Founded in 2020, the company employs 20 people. And in this corner, Nursa. Nursa has closed an 80 million Series B funding round that brings total funding to $100 million for the Salt Lake City-based company. The platform is designed to assist healthcare facilities in filling shifts with local nurses. The company established in 2019 currently employs 300 team members and boast 95,000 nurse practitioners. Chad, who'd you rather TeamSense or Nursa? Chad: So I'd rather TeamSense and here's why. Nursa, they're applying a bandaid to a sucking chest wound. Will the ability to shuffle healthcare workers help? Yeah, in the short term, but it doesn't address the larger problem. We need more people to enter into the care economy. That's the answer. Not a shuffling app. We talked about borderless on the Europe show this week. And that helps the larger issue by aiding healthcare workers who want to come through the immigration process to the UK. Nursa doesn't do that. They're not taking care of the big problem TeamSense, the hourly segment is one of the biggest opportunities for tech startups today. Why? 'cause number one, this segment represents a 70%-80% of the working population. Number two, according to the CDC, absenteeism costs the US employers almost $226 billion every year in productivity losses. And against that CDC number, TeamSense's 39% reduction in absenteeism would in effect save companies $88 billion. I'd rather TeamSense all day. SFX: What are you doing, step bro? Joel: All right. We're gonna disagree on this one, Chad. The SMS-only thing I just can't get over. If this were 2010, maybe I'd be super pumped about team sense. The problem is, whereas very few people had a smartphone in 2010, almost everyone has one In 2023. Android phones are being passed out at my local Kroger, so everyone can have one. The SMS side of this only just makes me feel like it's antiquated and not going anywhere. Especially now that they're just getting their seed Series A funding, I don't think that bodes well for the company long-term. However, Chad, whether it's 2010, 2023 or 2053, nurses are going to be in high demand and companies are gonna pay a lot of money to get them into the door. Nurses are going to continue to want flexibility and this sort of staffing on demand work, your own hours platform to me makes a whole lot of sense. Look, there's a lot of competition in the nurse staffing space for a reason and there are 100 million reasons with a Benjamin sign, dollar sign next to it to like TeamSense less than Nursa. So for me, that's right. Nursa, naughty Nursa or just Nursa, get my... Chad: Naughty Nursa. Joel: My vote for Who'd You Rather? All right, now to what none of us would rather, the RTO game keeps playing out. The frog continues to boil, Chad. Amazon, CEO, Andy Jassy, your boy, has run out of patients with remote workers who refuse to come back to the office. In a recent meeting, Jassy reportedly told staff that they need to be back in the office at least three days a week. And if they don't comply, they will be forced to resign. Isn't forced to resign getting fired? I think it's just a different label on that, which is... Chad: Yeah, without severance. Joel: This is a significant change from Jassy's previous stance on remote work, which was way more relaxed. What's more, Chad, is CNBC's story says some staffers are being told to relocate to hubs in different states if they wanna keep their jobs. And in other RTO news, Goldman Sachs boss David DJ Solomon has pulled the plug on Summer Fridays, the hits keep on coming, Chad, the hits keep on coming. What are your thoughts on all the news on RTO this week? Chad: So we predicted Solomon was going to do this, that's not a big deal. But the Amazon, I mean this is really a huge bait-and-switch is a quote from Andy Jassy. It's not right for all of our teammates to be in the office three days a week for people that refuse to do so. That's from Andy Jassy. So why are employees reluctant? Let me count the ways. Number one, in September of 2022, just a year ago, kids, Jassy told staff he had no plans to ask them to return to their desks from the same CNBC article, "An employee in Texas who was hired in a remote role," say that again, they were hired in a remote role, "said managers assured his team in March of 2023 that nothing would change despite the RTO mandate. But in July the team was informed by management that they'd have to choose between working out of Seattle, New York, Austin, Texas, or Arlington, Virginia." Chad: So back to Jassy, who said, "It's not right," what's not right? I mean, the bait-and-switch tactics here are not right. So for me, outside looking in from the market looking in, first and foremost, we have reports of Amazon running out of warehouse workers in some regions due to high churn rates and they're losing around 100% annually. More than double the industry average. Only one out of three new hires in 2021 stayed with the company for more than 90 days. Leaked reports of Amazon attrition, costing $8 billion in lost revenue. But these are different jobs. These are office jobs. So it feels like this is a forced downsize so that they don't have to pay severance. And I mean, no matter, no matter the optics suck. Andy Jassy looks like a bait-and-switch asshole at this part. I mean, that sucks. He doesn't care. I'm sure he's making these decisions from his office in the Hamptons or something like that. It's fucking crazy, man. Joel: Yeah. Are we really surprised that the old white guys are winning this battle? So the pendulum continues to swing in the opposite direction of 2021, '22. Stemies are running dry, real estate markets are frozen. Hiring for many companies is frozen and drying up. The Fed is getting its wish with higher unemployment and as a secondary benefit, the rich white guys, the balance of power is going back to the corporations and the grip continues to hire. As we talk about these stories on a weekly basis. Look, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but if I were a rich illuminati guy, I would go to the government and the Fed and I'd be like, okay, we can't have this chaos of people living where they wanna live. All my commercial real estate holdings going to hell, the stock market going to hell. We need to go back to status quo. Let's tighten the screws on these fuckers. Let's get inflation up. Let's get unemployment back up due to higher Fed rates. We'll get people back to the office. We'll be able to fire who we wanna fire. People have to sell their homes and suck it up for the man again and we'll be in charge again. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but if I were a rich white guy with billions, that might be a conversation that I wanna have. And speaking of billions, Chad. Chad: It sounds like history. Joel: It's a new season of Billions on Showtime. And if you're not watching, you should because the main character is running for president like all this shit, this is why my brain is going in this way. I think the whole system is built to screw us all. And this is an example. The white rich guys win again. I'm not surprised. Chad: And they're really good at turning everybody else against each other. Joel: Yes. Chad: While they sit up in their tower, their fucking ivory tower counting their goddamn money, but, and we're dumb enough to actually do that. Well, it's only fair that you're in the office because, do you think that they shouldn't be, hey, come over here. Let's see if I can start a fight among you guys while I walk out of the office. Joel: Yes. Yeah. We're dumb enough to buy crypto and think that GameStop is like the next big thing. We're dumb enough to buy houses in Vermont thinking that we'll be able to work there for the rest of our lives. In the meantime, they're rigging the system and just filling their pockets with more and more money. Chad: Bastard. Joel: Damn it. I need a break. And we'll come back and talk about airlines. Some airline news to close the show, Chad, two stories this week. Chad: Okay. Joel: Number one, Corendon Airlines, which I've never flown, is launching... Chad: Never heard of them. Joel: An adults-only zone on its flight between Amsterdam and Curacao, which is a 10-hour flight. But the adults-only zone is not what you think, Chad. The airline believes that there is a demand for adults-only zones, as some passengers prefer to travel without the disruption of young children and from no kids to no fatties, Korean Air is weighing passengers before boarding their flights starting next week. There's a law in Korea that requires airlines to weigh passengers and their carry-on luggage at least every five years. I'm guessing they weigh the luggage every time, but only the weight every five years. Korean-based airlines are following the law saying that average, that the average plays a role in determining aircraft weight distribution and enhancing flight safety. As of yet it doesn't cost extra to be XL, but critics say the writing is on the wall. Chad, your thoughts. Chad: So, adults-only airlines. If it's a long flight, I like my peace and quiet. Right? I definitely do. So would I pay a premium for something like that? I might. But and it comes to... When it comes to bigger people on flights, I don't know how many times I've had a guy in the middle seat has to force the armrests up and he spills over into my space. That's my seat. That's my space. Right? So it's like if we can actually have segments of the plane that are for larger individuals might cost more 'cause there's more space. I think that would be great, but it would be a better experience for them and it'd be better experience for everybody around them. I don't know. This has been a problem for a very long time. Much like people taking their fucking shoes off. Like bare feet on an airplane. People don't do that. Stop that. Joel: Yeah. If you're not following passenger shaming on Instagram, plenty of feet to look at on airplanes. So... Chad: Horrible. Horrible. Joel: So in terms of adults-only for noise, like the noise canceling headphones now are really good. Chad: Yeah. They're. They're. Joel: Like literally you can not hear anything but your podcast or music or whatever you're listening to. Yeah. Like invest in some noise canceling headphones and you're good to go on that end. I appreciate the airline trying to make an extra buck on an adults-only, I think people may take that the wrong way and take advantage of like... [laughter] Chad: Swingers. Joel: Yeah. Adults-only section. I bought the adult-only section and I'm gonna use it. Chad: Yeah. Joel: It's in terms of the fat thing, like it's difficult. Americans are getting bigger. All the data shows that, but also airlines are getting smaller. Like American Delta, Southwest and United have lost anywhere from two inches to five inches in leg-room and two inches in seat width since the 1980s. This is some data that has been collected. Chad: Wow. Wow. Joel: If you're too fat, literally, and I have some people in my family that are, you think I'm a little chubby, like take, come to my family reunion... [laughter] Joel: They have to buy two seats because they can't fit in the one seat and they have to get... Chad: But they buy two seats. Joel: They buy two seats 'cause they really have to. Like, they don't... It's not the spill, like they're literally too big. They have the belt extender, like the whole ball of wax. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Or you sit in first class where you got plenty of room, probably no matter how heavy you are. The point of like putting people on a scale at the check-in counter, if that's what it, that's really degrading. That's really kind of sad. That shouldn't be happening in my opinion. But, Chad, I've got the answer as I do to most things. Chad: Okay. Joel: I got the answer here. If you wanna make flying a lot better, Chad, here's the answer. Chad: Okay. Joel: Bigger seats, more leg room and discounted rates for big booty Latinas. [laughter] SFX: I'm happy. Joel: We out. [laughter] Chad: We out. [laughter] Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could've used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok, no, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap, because you'll be back. Like an awful trainwreck you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

Summer is winding down and Europeans are coming down from their holiday highs, so it’s a great time to drop some knowledge bombs from the Old Country. Staffing agencies are under fire for what politicians say is price gauging customers for in return for placements in the healthcare space. The care may be subsidized in Europe, but the placements are capitalism at its best (or worst). A toxic combination. A little Who’d Ya' Rather? follows, pitting 11x AI against Borderless. Weird names, but interesting businesses. Who wins? Gotta listen. A story out of Italy closes out the show with a new story about ending benefits for thousands of families and individuals deemed "fit to work.” PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Oh, yeah. It's International Slinky Day. And this podcast too is fun for a boy and a girl. This is the Chad and Cheese podcast does Europe. I'm your co-host, Joel "Slinkity" Cheesman. Chad: I'm Chad "It's called soccer" Sowash. Lieven: And I'm Lieven "Totally into nurses" Van Nieuwenhuyze. [laughter] Joel: And on this episode, healthcare research, Italy says ciao to freebies and who'd you rather. Let's do this. Look at Lieven how refreshed he is. Chad: He should be. Joel: He's so rested and refreshed. This whole Europe take July and August off is working for me, even though I'm not partaking. Chad: Well, yeah, I think you probably get a good enough July and August off. But anyway. Joel: That's... [laughter] This podcast is really cramping, my napping schedule. By the way, Chad. Chad: Yeah. Having to be up by 11:00. Yeah, that's too much. Yeah. No, dude I love just the opportunity for time away for yourself. And Europeans do that better than anybody. Probably the French mostly but Europeans do it better than anybody. Joel: Well, I love that you're talking about it in the green room, you leave Europe at this time of year because your Airbnb can be a cash machine for a couple months for all the Europeans going to Portugal. Chad: Yeah. I don't... I mean, I like Europeans, but I don't like that many Europeans. [laughter] Joel: Nobody. So you're done vacationing, Lieven. Do you want to fill us in on where you went, what you did? Chad: Tell me a little bit about Madeira, man. I want to hear that. We got a chance to go. I wanna hear your experience. Lieven: So that's how we pronounce it in English, Madeira? Chad: Yes. Lieven: Okay. Yeah. We say Madeira, but probably so it's Madeira. It's nice. Joel: That's way sexy. Lieven: So Madeira actually it is Portugal. So we have something in common, Chad. It's nice. Madeira, Madeira. It's a beautiful island as you know. And the climate, I love the climate it was like in Celsius, but you have Fahrenheit or something, but at 27 degrees. A bit clouds, not too hot. And that's something people start to appreciate with this long hot summers in the south of Europe, 27 degrees is just perfect. So it's nice. I love it. Chad: I can't wait to go back. We've got the family, we're taking the family there for Christmas and New Year's, so really stoked. Luckily, luckily, I've got a buddy who has a big house there, so we can fit them all. Lieven: Nice. Chad: We can fit them all in. SFX: Shout-out. Chad: All right. All right. We gotta do this first. Again, it's called soccer. Why? Because Messi, the GOAT is in the United States, and he is lighting it up over here. He is filling stadiums, he's doing things that Joel Cheesman never thought was possible. This, to me, deserves a shout-out. Yes, he's Argentine. Although football, we all know is very, very European. So a big shout-out to Messi and bringing the love of the game to the US. Joel: The dude is ridiculous. I'm not the biggest soccer fan, but like the highlights and what he's doing. It looks like he's... Chad: A man playing with kids. Joel: Yeah. It'd be like Jordan playing with kindergartners in his heyday. Like, I can't even... I'm tempted to buy the MLS package just to watch him. It's 30 bucks a year, I think, or the season. Pretty good deal. I mean, he's doing what Pele, Beckham, Rooney, all these guys couldn't do. He's selling out Cincinnati. He's selling out Columbus. He's selling out all these stadiums. And I mean, dare I say, Premier League Soccer, I feel is more important. The season just started recently. Like, I'm kind of watching on Saturday mornings. My six-year-old has soccer, so we'll usually pre-game with some Aston Villa or Man U, like get pumped up. Chad: Liverpool. [laughter] Joel: I don't know, man. I'm feeling a little bit of the football fever, little bit of the football fever. Chad: As Lieven's over there. He is like, yeah, this is old hat for me. So what do you... Have you heard about it? Have you seen what Messi he's been doing over across the pond? Lieven: Some people who like soccer or football probably have, but I couldn't care less. I have really no idea. I know his name, but that's about it. Chad: We gotta give Lieven a test. I'm not really sure he's European. [laughter] Joel: He is royalty. He doesn't deal with the commoners and their games of soccer and footy and rugby and all that. He's doing like fencing and horse... Lieven: Polo. Polo. Yes. Yes, yes. During when we go to the stadt, where we have those sleighs and then we sleigh riding with horses. Joel: Yeah. Lieven's with horses. He's skiing in the Alps. Like that's his jam. That's his jam. By the way, it's the summer of pink over here. Barbie's the hottest movie. Messi's the hottest athlete in the country. All doing it in pink and doing in a hot pink. And speaking of hot, Chad. Chad: Yes. Hot chicken. Joel: My shout-out goes, my shout-out goes to air conditioning. Oh, yeah. Nashville's coming up. That's a different podcast. Air conditioning. As an American, I take air conditioning for granted, especially in August and with climate change. But I recently found out, Chad, that 20%, only 20% of European homes have air conditioning. That's compared to 88% of homes in the good old US of A. Europe, by the way, is the world's fastest warming continent on the planet. So stay cool Europe. Shout-out to air conditioning. Chad: So Lieven, do you have air conditioning in your place? Lieven: We don't need it, really. Chad: Yeah in Belgium, yeah. And so down in the Algarve we do, but I mean, it gets, yeah, a little warm. Lieven: Of course. Chad: It gets a little warm down there. So we do have AC. Lieven: This summer we didn't really need it. It was mostly very cold. [laughter] Lieven: No, really it was, it was. Today we have the heating on actually, because it's chilly. Chad: Yeah. For those listeners who can't see. But Lieven's all bundled up. I think he had a scarf on before he started. [laughter] Lieven: It's not a scarf, but a... Joel: He was wearing his ascot with his smoking jacket and his leather slippers. Lieven: Oh my God. Joel: I'm surprised in the summer when we go, Chad, how hot the UK can get. It can get pretty warm there in the UK. Chad: Well, remember when we were there for the... Not this last Wreck Fest, but the one before, but the Luton Airport tarmac was melting. Joel: Melting, yeah. Chad: It was so fuckin hot. Joel: Yeah. Enjoy that cool Belgian air while you can, Lieven. By the way, Chad, in October we're gonna be in Europe and I'm sure it's gonna be cool enough by October. Where are we going in Europe? Chad: Yeah, we're going to UNLEASH Paris. As a matter of fact, I just got my Airbnb yesterday, thank God. Early October, kids. If you're going to HR Tech or you're not going to HR Tech, you definitely have to go to UNLEASH. It is a spectacle, UNLEASH World in Paris. It's a blast. And you can go to chadcheese.com and find all the places we're gonna be and register right there. Joel: And Lieven is continuing to take a vacation from shout-outs this week. Maybe next week he'll have something. Lieven: I changed my mind. Joel: Oh, okay. Lieven: I've got a shout-outs just because... Chad: Here we go. Joel: Bring it. Lieven: You're making me look like some, how did you call it? Royal, huh? My shout-out goes to... [laughter] Joel: Royal, the Bourgeoisie. Yeah. Whatever. Lieven: Do you know her? Lotte Kopecky. Ever heard of Lotte Kopecky? Chad: No. Joel: No. Lieven: Ah, you male chauvinist pics because it's a girl, huh? [laughter] Lieven: No. Lotte Kopecky, she's Belgian and she just became the world champion on the road cycling. So cycling is something pretty big in Belgium. And she became the world champion, so suddenly we're all into female cycling. Joel: All right. Lieven: So my shout-out goes to Lotte Kopecky just to show that I know her and that my knowledge basically enhanced but still. [laughter] Joel: Inclusive and sports related shout-out from Lieven. Chad: Yes. Joel: I love it. I love it. Lieven: And there's also a link with HR because she's sponsored by SD Worx. You know SD Worx? Chad: No. Joel: No. Lieven: No, it's an HR company, whatever. Chad: Okay. Lieven: Okay. Chad: There's the connection. Lieven: Lotte Kopecky. Chad: Very nice. Joel: Love it. Good job, Lieven. And topics. [music] Joel: Let's talk healthcare, guys. The World Employment Confederation recently published a strategic paper outlining the importance of quality and cost-effective healthcare services around the globe and how the HR services industry, particularly agency work is an important piece of the pie. Highlighted was the balance and appropriate national regulation as a basis for the effective use of agency work and staffing services in healthcare. The article also expresses concern that attempts to restrict the use of agency work in several countries in Europe, risks aggravating the staff shortages that already prevail and therefore undermines the sustainability of healthcare systems. European healthcare staffing. Lieven, you have some deep insight on this one. What are your thoughts? Lieven: We're pretty much involved because we have some companies in Belgium and the Netherlands and Germany active in healthcare staffing. So we are definitely watching this one close. And you have to know the World Employment Confederation, they launched this paper or this survey because of a series of newspaper articles which were published during the recent months on politicians, mostly populist politicians who thought attacking temporary and contract work in healthcare would give them them some easy attention in view of the upcoming elections. And that's basically what is happening because there's a big difference between healthcare in Europe and in the US, of course, everyone knows. In Europe it's accessible to anyone. Standards are pretty high. That's great, but it's expensive. Healthcare is really expensive, and it's paid by the government so it's mostly financed through taxpayers money. So for politicians, it's easy to say those companies are stealing money from the government so basically are stealing money from you poor taxpayers. And they try to get some attention and nobody can be against politicians attacking multinationals trying to abuse the taxpayer. Lieven: So that's their point. Problem is, of course, it's totally not as those populist politicians claim it is. It's really, it's a complicated situation. So I'm going to give a short introduction and then you can fire away. But just to give you an idea, do you know how much it cost to go to a doctor in Belgium, for example, or in Western Europe? Do you have an idea? Chad: For the end user? Lieven: Yeah, just for let's say out-of-pocket money for me as a patient going to a doctor. Joel: Zero. Lieven: What do you think I'd pay? It's not zero. Joel: Okay. Lieven: No, because if it was zero then... And if that actually was the case, some people went to the doctor. Joel: It's €1. [chuckle] Lieven: No, it's €4 actually, four. Yeah, because... Chad: Wow. Okay. Lieven: Yeah, I know. Because if it's zero, some old people actually went to the doctor just because they were lonely and they had to talk so they had to make them pay something just to put, in Dutch it's called (NO CLUE HOW TO SPELL THAT) it's to put a break on that. Joel: Sure. Lieven: So it's really cheap. But with the aging population, the healthcare system is getting really expensive for everyone. So the politicians thought we're going to cuts on the money, and they tried it but then suddenly COVID came and they realized it wasn't a very good idea to save too much money on healthcare. We definitely need healthcare. So now they're trying to raise taxes, but then of course nobody likes that, huh? Raising taxes. That's a difficult subject. Joel: And when you say it's getting expensive, you don't mean the €4, you mean the taxes that come into it. Lieven: No, no, no, no. It's basically the system is getting expensive. Joel: Okay. Lieven: Just free healthcare is getting too expensive for the government. Joel: Yep. Lieven: And they have to transfer lots of money from other departments to healthcare just to keep it up. So they started first by, some politicians started by attacking some doctors. They said those doctors they make too much money. But that wasn't really a popular subject because basically most people feel those doctors should make a lot of money because studies are really hard. It takes a lot of time, 12 years at least at the university and basically people feel those doctors they deserve it. So as a politician, you didn't become really popular by attacking doctors and now they're trying something else. They're trying to attack the staffing companies who put mostly nurses in hospitals. And they say those staffing companies are making money on the backs of the taxpayer because that's something you need to realize. The healthcare industry is privately owned. So healthcare is supported by the government, but the industry is privately owned. So all those doctors are mostly self-employed, and those nurses are mostly employees of those private hospitals. Lieven: In the end, it's the taxpayer who pays and that's something you have to realize. So healthcare is becoming more and more expensive. Cost cutting didn't really work out so they're looking for a different way to save some money. And now attacking temporary contract work in the healthcare sector is something new they try. Joel: So are they tightening the screws in terms of profitability of the staffing companies or is this just a, "We're mad at you and it's getting political." Like, are they really passing regulation in terms of ceilings on profits? Lieven: Not yet. Joel: Or is this just theater? Lieven: Not yet, it's theater. It's because they just, next year, there is election in Belgium and in the Netherlands and those politicians now, they're just looking for a subject with which they can get some attention. So there's no talk about, not yet about legislation change or anything. It's mostly newspaper articles. But the problem is, and that's something they don't tell even their voters, healthcare industry absolutely needs flexible staffing because otherwise there will be a huge problem. I'm going to give you a few examples. There are many, but just a few. For example, there is the need for a flexible pool of nurses to fill in a certain urgent demand. It would be totally unsustainable to be constantly fully staffed. You have to have some kind of a flexible pool. If people, if a lot of nurses suddenly become ill, they have to be replaced. If there is some kind of a pandemic, you have to be able to provide extra nurses. So this flexible pool has to be there, but it's something those hospitals, they can't organize themselves. And this is basically where the flex work came from or why it's becoming more popular. And to put things in perspective, in Belgium, for example, only 3% of all nurses are working in some kind of a flexible contract. In the Netherlands, it's about 10%. And in most countries, it's somewhere between 2 and 7, 8 percent. Lieven: So it's not like it's huge, but it's a fact that the numbers are growing because more and more nurses want to work in some kind of a flexible contract. And that's actually a fact. And House of HR has done a big survey, about 1,500 nurses were asked about why did you became flex worker? Why did you became a freelance worker or maybe a temping worker or a projects? Why did you work in project staffing? And we wanted to know because politicians mostly claim they do it to make more money. And we found out that's totally not the case. It's not even in the top five of reasons. So the five most important reasons were, nurses saying, I want to have more flexibility in my work schedule. And that's something which definitely makes sense because those people also have families and they have to be able to put their children to school, etcetera. So flexibility, also nurses needed. They want more variety in their jobs. They are... And that's something I liked. They enjoyed being a freelancer more than working as an employee. It's like saying, when I'm a freelancer, my boss is my client. And that's a different approach. They say, I want to gain experience in multiple places. Also makes sense. The moment you graduate, you don't know what your career should be like. Lieven: There are so many different ways to work within healthcare and they can try several. And the fifth one was, I wanted to be able to do other things besides working in healthcare. So these were the first five most important reasons. And I believe making more money came on the sixth or seventh place. And it is true in some cases, if you work with a staffing company as a nurse, in some cases you will make more money than if you work directly for a hospital. And that's the difficult part. There has been some cases where temping agencies were poaching nurses from hospitals. They were contacting them directly and saying, if you work with us, you can still work in the hospital, but you will make more money. And that, of course, that could be a problem because if all nurses would work in the same way, then actually healthcare would become extremely expensive. But in this case, it's different. We're talking about most nurses, 3% of those in Belgium are choosing to work in a different way of work and in a flexible way of work, not for the money and they don't make more money. It's just a different way of working. And this is something I think nobody can be against. Lieven: But I definitely feel there should be within the industry, some kind of a self-regulation. And I feel there should be a code of conducts in which something should be stipulated, or how do you say it, should be mentioned. Like a non-poaching agreement makes sense. You can't just call a hospital nurse and say, we're going to hire you and then put you back. Shouldn't be allowed. Joel: When staffing companies say, you can make more money with us, is that because they're negotiating a new contract with the hospital and giving that money to the nurse? But then you said you're not making more money. Like, help me understand... Lieven: No. Joel: If I'm a staffing agency and say, hey, come with us, you'll make more money. How does that work? Lieven: It depends on the, how do you say it in English? Statut, the status, is that the word? Chad: Status, yeah. Joel: Status. Lieven: Status, yeah. If you're employed or if you're a freelancer, tax is totally different because you have to make sure you get your insurance as a freelancer. That's totally a different structure. It would lead us too far now. But if you have your own company as a nurse, if you're a freelancer, then you could probably make more in the end if you have a good accountant and it's a possibility. But it's definitely not a reason why people... Joel: Kind of like taking an employed truck driver and saying, be your own driver, you'll make more money. At least that's the argument. Be your own boss, okay. Lieven: Yeah, but then you have to have your own truck. You have to buy your own truck. You have to, of course. Intro: Oh, yeah. Lieven: I think in many cases it would be easier not to be your own truck driver, not to be your own boss and just work for a company. So I think there are so many things you need to take into account that I don't think those nurses make much more money, definitely not still. So have, it would lead us too far. In any case, it's not a reason why they chose to be freelancer or why they do staffing work. So I also think a fair pricing should be definitely negotiated. It's not like a staffing company can say, we are going to claim all the nurses and then we're going to charge ridiculous amounts. This is something, and I feel you just should have the competition work this out. There are many companies and normal competition will realize, I think, a reasonable pricing. It's mostly, it's like always in staffing, it's just a coefficient, how do you call it? An extra percentage on the wages paid to cover your own expenses as an agency. Chad: Margin, yeah. Lieven: A margin, of course and of course there should be a commitment to legal and ethical standards, the quality of service should be guaranteed, respect and fair treatment, those kind of things should be in a code of conduct. And this is something the politicians could look at, but claiming temping makes the industry too expensive, it's just ridiculous, it's totally not the case. I think as a contrary, if each hospital should have a flexible layer and they should have to manage it themself, it would be totally too expensive. So the World Employment Confederation came to the same result. They've published a big survey on it, and if people are interested, you can find it on the website of WEC. We also did a big survey on it, we did a paper on it, and now it's the nice lobby work contacting politicians and trying to make them see reason. Chad: I want to be able to clear some things up with regard to like, costs for US versus Europe. Okay. So, first off, the most expensive country in Europe costs about 8000 USD, a little over 8500 USD per capita. Okay. So, per person in that country. In Belgium, it's around $6600 per person. And again, in Europe, everybody's covered. In the US, it's $13,000, more than twice, rather around twice that of what it is in Belgium and not everybody is covered. That's so, I still love the European system no matter what, right? What we're talking about, and for $4 copay, we're paying anywhere from 20-50 bucks, and I had to pay $850 outta my own pocket for an MRI. Total, it's total fucking chaos and 20% of our GDP by the way. Lieven: And you have insurance of course, so they've paid, yeah. Chad: Yeah. Oh, yeah. I've got "great insurance" but I'm still paying. Most people can't afford to go pay $850 to get an MRI. Lieven: Of course not. Chad: To get their self fixed so I just wanna be able to carve out the huge differences between the two systems. Secondarily, I think there's a, there could be a huge danger in, I think Europe is taking a look at what the US, the US media has been talking about and that's gouging profiteering, they're trying to make that a narrative in Europe as well. And if they've got the numbers, they're gonna play that game. But here's what happened in 1968 that I think is a much smaller scale, but something that I think it's important that you guys do self-regulate and you work directly with the government. Chad: Because Ronald Reagan fired over 11,000 privately employed air traffic controllers when the union said that they were going to go on strike, right? Because this was going to put massive harm on the US economy, the exact same thing. The types of positions that we're talking about are vital to the importance of the number of people aged 85 and overs is looking to grow 55% by 2037, just in the UK alone. So this has gotta be something that government looks at and you guys look at in together to be able to fix this problem, because if government takes over and says, okay, we're just gonna do the Reagan thing, and maybe not the entire industry because we're talking about millions of people. But taking swaths and saying, look, nurses, we need to be able to take control over this because this is a huge problem and vital to not just our livelihood, but our economy. So I think it's incredibly smart that you guys are doing what you're doing in digging into this to try to find out where the answer is. Lieven: And the interesting part is, if you look at Norway, for example, Norway has extremely strict laws concerning temping and project staffing. They're really even for us, left wing, and normally unions aren't really into flexible staffing thing because people who work for a staffing agency, they're not allowed to vote in the social elections, so for the unions, they unions just don't like it. So in Norway, regulations are really strict and they made an exception for healthcare. In, I think it was in April this year, regulations were changed in Norway, but only with the exception for healthcare because they realized we need the flexibility in healthcare, and this is something that totally makes sense and something... Chad: Great precedent to go off of. Lieven: Yeah, definitely, and something and the Western Europe should take into account. Joel: So Chad outlined the differences in American and European healthcare. There's one thing that we both have in common that happened recently called the pandemic, and the pandemic put incredible stress on healthcare systems across the world. In America, just as it did in Europe, we saw burned out nurses quit the profession altogether, we saw doctors burned out, just stresses that really tested the system. On top of that, there's a theme riding on this European show on employment, and it's the demographic challenges of Europe. Europe is getting older, it's not producing a lot of young people in comparison, and when you have older and older people, that's a stress on the healthcare system as well. Older people don't get healthier, they get sicker, and they need young people to, one, pay for them to get healthcare as well as take care of them directly. Joel: We saw France up the retirement age, we're gonna talk about Italy in a second, governments in Europe are struggling with this issue of paying for healthcare, paying for entitlements, and now paying more and more for military expenses and that's a really tough question to answer. And what tends to happen is they look at the boogeyman that is most available at the particular time, I think in this case, staffing agencies are the boogeyman in this scenario, they're easy to go after. It's easy to say, hey, staffing companies are gouging us, that's why you're paying so much, that's why nurses aren't in hospitals or, you know, like, it's an easy, easy target, I think for governments. The bigger question is how do we get our population up? How do we get people working again? How do we get tax revenues up? Like, those are the bigger questions. The staffing agency question to me is not a big issue here, they have much bigger fish to fry, but this is a nice headline. It's an easy win politically. The unfortunate thing is demographic changes are not Democratic, Labor, Conservative, Tory, it affects everybody no matter what the borders are, and this issue is sort of underscoring the ongoing demographic challenges that are encompassing Europe. Lieven: Absolutely, and the shortage is really structural, it's getting harder each day. So that's interesting part in fact within the survey we did with those 1500 nurses, we asked one of the questions was, if legislations would change and you would be forced to become employed again or leave the nursing industry altogether, over 75% said they would at least consider looking for a totally different job because they want the flexibility. And this is something we have to keep in mind also, it's not like the employees or the employers can still decide. It's the employees who are in charge. And if they want to work in a flexible way, you have to allow them. Joel: I was interested, the paper from the World Employment Confederation had no mention of automation, augmentation, how technology can kind of help bridge the gap between not enough people and giving them superpowers like we talk about in recruiting. None of that was mentioned on that paper, and I think it is something that every country's gonna have to consider moving forward, is how do we get technology to help augment some of the healthcare issues that we're facing? Chad: That's, and that's where you get an organization like House of HR who's an expert in this space, who can actually bring that to the table. This doesn't get fixed by government alone. This does not get fixed by private industry alone. Right? This has to be a collaboration between the two. And when that happens, the optics are much better for the politicians, which is exactly what they want in the first place. You guys have the experience, you have the tech, you know all of this. Being able to actually be the guide is the biggest key here. Lieven: Absolutely, and I always say the recruitment industry is getting more technical each day and it's getting more complicated and given the shortage in basically every industry, it's becoming more technical, so you have to know what you're doing and it's becoming more specialized. And hospitals, they just can't hire the nurses they need anymore. And companies like ours, we are still able to find the people because we do have the technology. We hire them, we train them, we offer them whatever they need to work as efficiently as possible. And this is something we need, you can't just have nurses sitting around waiting until they are asked to fill in someone, to replace someone who became ill, for example. So those few nurses we have, they need to be able to work as efficiently as possible, and there's definitely something our industry could manage, we are... It's our core business, hiring people, matching people, matching or scheduling those pools, it's our business. Joel: Yep, well when we come back, things will lighten up a little bit with who'd you rather. Who's ready for some who'd you rather? SFX: What are you doing, step bro? [laughter] Joel: All right, here's how we play the game, gang. We talk about two companies that have recently gotten some funding. I'll read a summary and then at the end we decide, who'd you rather each of the guys sound off? Are you guys ready to play? Chad: Yes. Lieven: Yeah. Joel: Who'd you rather? All right. Well, in this corner we have Borderless, London-based startup Borderless has raised 2.5 million pounds in a seed funding round to address the country's shortage of care workers, sound familiar? Borderless offers automated vetting and sourcing via visa processing and relocation management services for care providers. A former Microsoft executive was an investor in the round. Borderless aims to automate the hiring and onboarding of international workers, simplifying the process for both employees and employers while reducing costs and risks. The startup plans to expand its services to the wider UK healthcare sector in the near future, that is Borderless. Now let's talk about UK based startup 11x AI. They've raised $2 million in pre-seed funding to launch their AI digital workers. The company's first AI digital worker is named Alice, an AI sales development representative. 11x AI says that it's AI-powered team members can help businesses of all sizes to automate repetitive tasks and "amplify human potential." The funding will be used to develop additional AI digital workers and to create a platform that will allow businesses to build their own AI digital workers. That is 11x AI and Borderless. Chad, who'd you rather? Chad: Whew. Let's start off with 11A or 11x AI. They've launched obviously these digital workers, but they're doing it to the SME market, which we all know is a very hard market to try to break into. You wanna spend money on AI in GPUs to make this thing work right, right? You're not gonna have the cash to spend on marketing, which is exactly what you need for the SME market. And then as the company says, its mission is to automate everything. I mean everything, there's literally no place for me to start here, okay. Then Borderless, who is taking aim at the country's shortage of care workers, this is obviously a big problem, we just had a whole segment about it. It's a legit issue that will be a very persistent problem that needs fixed as reported by the BBC. Chad: The average churn in the care industry is 50% year over year. Plus, as I said earlier, the number of people aged over 85 is expected to grow 55% by 2037. Who'd I rather? It's very simple, Borderless is who I would rather, because I think that might be an House of HR, I don't know, acquisition target sometime very soon. [laughter] Joel: Oh, that's one for borderless. All right, guys. Lieven: Might as well be. Joel: So I agree, healthcare is a huge issue care workers, huge issue in the UK and everywhere in the world, which we just spoke about. However, the market potential with just a UK healthcare business, assuming even they grow throughout Europe, is fairly limited. I do believe that more and more companies, yes, Chad, you can't see it on the audio, but yes, Chad. The total addressable market for digital workforces is humongous, there's gonna be a lot of competition in the space, there's gonna be a lot more money come in. 11x AI, as bad as the name is, is gonna get a lot of funding for what they're doing. Look, we had a story on the weekly show a couple of weeks ago about a customer service company let go 90% of its workforce to be replaced by digital workers. I can tell you if companies could replace a lot of their Salesforce to do sort of the initial SDR process, they would definitely do it. Joel: A lot of companies, particularly startups that can't afford the headcount of salespeople, particularly good salespeople, are gonna drop coin on companies like 11X AI to save money, get more sales in the door. Like the website says, hi, I'm Alice, your new AI SDR. I consume trillions of bytes of data to become the world's best SDR. I work 24 hours a day, seven days a week at scale to help you grow faster and automate prospecting. Hire me today and supercharge your growth. Those are words that I can get behind, and those are words that say I would rather 11x AI. SFX: Just the tip. [laughter] Joel: All right Lieven, break the tie, baby. Lieven: Okay, who would I rather? I don't think it's a coincidence that Borderless was launched in the UK because it's the only country within Europe where it actually might succeed, I feel. Because of the language, so many companies have tried and the word might sound a bit harsh, but importing care workers from all around the world into their own country, and there is always a big language problem. I know some Belgium company who tried to get nurses from the Philippines in to Belgium because we needed them but even after one year of intense language training, it just didn't work out. And after two years, those people were getting, they didn't like it and they return to the country, to the Philippines, and they tried it from the north of Africa, different countries. I don't know any case in which it succeeded. Lieven: Of course, in the UK it's a different thing because they have their old colonies, where many people still speak English and that might be the big game changer. If it's UK, I think the 2.5 million investment is I'm sure a pretty good investment. The other one, 11x, it's a difficult one, of course, and today it's very sexy to be active within AI. If you call your company X, it makes a difference. I'm an ex user for example, an ex user of Twitter that is. I do believe in the whole concept about the digital shifts, and we've been talking about our congress, March 19th, it'll be in Amsterdam. And the title of the congress is the digital shifts and as the shift from traditional economy to a strictly digital powered by AI but it's also about the digital shift like you have the night shift and the early morning shift. You also have the digital shift, there will be digital people working in your company, being your colleagues, and this is exactly what 11x is doing with Alice. And they are creating a persona, a difficult, sorry, a digital profile which will more or less behave like a human being. And this will only get better and more realistic. I'm not sure about it, so it's sexy, but I think I would wait a bit just to see how it turns out. So today I would go for the Borderless. SFX: What are you doing, step bro? Joel: All right, gang, that is another... Chad: Who'd you rather? Joel: Who would you rather? Thanks for playing, thanks for playing. All right. Let's get to our final story, the Italian government is ending benefits for thousands of families and individuals deemed "fit to work." The citizen's income allowance will only be for families meeting limited criteria such as those with a disabled person, a minor or an individual over the age of 65. The benefit was introduced four years ago, but the new right-wing government is tightening the social welfare system, opponents criticized the decision saying it would be particularly difficult for those in their 50s to retrain and find new jobs. Get a job hippie. Chad what are your thoughts on the news out of Italy? Chad: It's interesting. First, let's give a little background. Meloni is she's actually a Mussolini fan, she's a radical right winger, she's a fascist. Here's the kicker. Hey, Italians, this was one of Meloni's campaign promises. She promised to do that if she'd get in office. She said she's going to abolish these monies. So nobody should be surprised, but whose job is it to create jobs in Italy? Everyone wants to point at the guy on the couch and say, hey, man, you're lazy. But there aren't any fucking jobs in Italy. Is it the individual's job to drive economic development for the entire country or Italy, the actual government by building and bringing companies into the country? The thing here is we're always demonizing the person who can't find a fucking job. If you take a look at Naples, it is depressed. It is impoverished, and then we're pointing a finger at somebody and saying, you're lazy. Chad: It's the government being lazy and not doing their job and actually doing economic development. So we've got to stop demonizing people who can't find a fucking job. That's the biggest key. And we've got Mussolini fans who were loving this. This is something that we see in the US, we see all over the world. We're always pointing at the lazy bastard on the couch, who, to be quite frank, has to work three jobs just to be able to make ends meet. So that's my two cents. I think it's ridiculous. And for a government to be able to point at people and call 'em lazy, the government, Italy in this case is lazy. Joel: Not to sound like a broken record, but the political side of this, not that it doesn't matter, but Italy has the highest share of people over 65 years of age in the EU. Aging residents and failing birth rates will decrease the population from 54.2 million today to 47.7 million in 2070. Similar to France changing the rules around retirement, Italy has the same tough choice to make and this is probably one of many that they're going to have to do. I do love that if you have children that you still get the benefit, which is basically saying, have more kids so we can help pay for an aging population. Politically, this becomes a strategy to win office. It makes great headlines but the, ultimately the bill is gonna be due on these issues of not having enough money to pay these things that people need. We had one of the... Joel: One of the politicians made a great point in terms of supporting women. And if you support women, they're more likely to get a job because they feel they have childcare and that they can have that support. Initiatives like that are perfectly fine if the end goal is to get more women in the workforce. I think that's a good thing. But ultimately everyone should take a page out of Portugal's playbook and get more Americans, Canadians, and Brits to come in the country and spend more money and buy more real estate so they can buy more benefits for their populace. Chad: To create more jobs, I don't care how many women you make feel good about going to work, if there's no fucking work, you can't do anything. Joel: Well, you need customers to have jobs and if you have a declining population, there's less customers. Chad: They don't have people coming in to actually create jobs in the first place. That's the problem. You can't get a tax revenue base if you can't actually tax the people off the jobs that they're doing 'cause there aren't any fucking jobs. Joel: Well, there's a declining number of people. Chad: Which should make for more job openings. The problem is, Italy's not doing its job and creating economic development. Joel: But you need consumers to buy the goods that you're selling, those are where the jobs come from. If you have an aging population... Chad: Where do they get the money? Joel: 80 year olds don't buy anything, I know 'cause my dad's 84. Chad: There aren't enough jobs, so if you've got a declining population, you need to bring more jobs to the people so that they can actually get money in their pocket so they can pay for shit. Joel: Sure. Chad: If you have more kids and you don't have jobs to be able to drive tax revenue and buy shit, none of that matters. Joel: Immigration's a whole other point of this as well. I don't know what Italy's immigration policy. Chad: That's a diversion, but yes. Joel: If you want more people, you have to have more babies. Let people in, you become Italy in Japan. Chad: What's the problem right now? Jobs. They're pointing at people that are saying lazy on the couch where there are no fucking jobs. They need jobs first. They don't need more people. Joel: More Americans. That's the answer, Lieven. What are your thoughts? Lieven: More Americans. Chad: Yeah. To spend money. Lieven: The world needs more Americans. I think there's a very big difference between the north and the south of Italy. If you look at Milano, there are plenty of jobs and it's rich and the economy is booming. The south has always been a problem area. And I do agree with both of you. Definitely, it's at least job to create more jobs definitely in the south and to help those people if you can't find a job, the government needs to take care of you. And this is what's been happening for hundreds of years now. There is only one problem. If the social security is that good in some regions, you probably don't feel the urge to find a job, and there are ways to make some more money without paying taxes. So we call it... I'm not sure if it's called the same in English as (What did he say?) if you don't pay taxes, you work in black in the firm, you probably don't know the expression. I can't translate it literally. But I'm sure many of those people who take money from the government because they are unemployed, also work without paying taxes. Lieven: And this definitely is the case in the south of Italy. That's one thing. And I feel there should be a big difference between what you could make working and what you get from the government not working. And in those countries, and in the south of Italy, the average income is pretty low. And what they got from the government was high income, if you compare it and then people aren't motivated. What I should do or what I would do, but it's politics, is the moment you lose your job, the first three months you should get a really high allowance because it would allow you to look for a new job, maybe even five months, but then it should go down pretty fast. So you don't have the time to settle down and getting the money from the government and not working at all. For people losing a job, there should be some kind of a net to catch them. But you can't just use the system for years and years. There are jobs definitely even in the south, so people should be motivated to get one. But that's more of a political discussion, I feel. Joel: Did Lieven say he agreed with both of us? Lieven: Yes is because I'm very diplomatic. Chad: Very European, but what I heard from you there Lieven was if there needs to be greater wages as well, the wages need to increase. Lieven: Yeah, of course. Chad: There are many different layers to this onion. But at the end of the day, you're right, there are pockets of Italy that are impoverished, you just can't find a job. But then there are other areas, I mean, there's no reason that they can't treat those differently, right? Lieven: And you are talking about migration in the '50s and '60s, after last century. So many Italian people came, for example, to Belgium to work in the coal mines because Italy was really poor, and those people were invited to come to work in Belgium and in Netherlands and Germany and work in the mining industry, which was a terrible job but it paid pretty good. But then when those mines closed, closed down, then those people were unemployed in Belgium as well, it's still something which isn't totally solved even in Italy. Joel: Keep hope alive Europe, because team Sowash is eventually gonna be back in Portugal, spending lots and lots of money. Lieven: Tons. Joel: Guys, this was intense, but I loved it as usual, we out. Chad: We out. Lieven: We out. Outro: Wow, look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese Podcast or maybe you cheated and fast forward it to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back, valuable time you could've used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckle heads instead. Now, go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away and like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either, we out.

As summer drags on, the boys had to get out of the house for a change of scenery, deciding to head to Chicago to see how things at Shaker Recruitment Marketing were doing … as well as do a show in the process. (That means the usual dose of cameras, crowds and debauchery, of course, just in real life this time.) The boys discuss tons of AI topics, including The New York Times taking on OpenAI and the state of New York regulating employee monitoring. Plus, The America First Legal Foundation is crying reverse discrimination, while Kid Rock is still drinking Bud Lite and Grindr and X, the artist formerly known as Twitter, are looking to be the next LinkedIn (yeah, really). As an added bonus, Shaker president Joe Shaker, Jr. joins us for a fireside chat, focused on the state of programmatic job advertising, to close out an amazing 24 hours in the Windy City. TRASNCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the The Chad & Cheese Podcast. Joel: Oh, yeah. Just a couple of wind bags in the Windy city. What's up kids? We are in front of a live studio audience in Chicago, hosted by our good friends at Shaker Recruitment Marketing. You are listening to the The Chad & Cheese Podcast. This is your co-host, Joel the fridge Cheeseman. Chad: This is Chad Italian Beef Sowash. Joel: And on this week's show, AI, DEI, LinkedIn better watch its back. And a fireside chat with Shaker President, Joe Shaker. Let's do this. Chad: Chicago, Chad, my kind of town. Joel: Love Chicago. Chad: Once you get through all the traffic, it doesn't suck, right? It's awesome when you get through all the traffic [laughter] Joel: Yeah. Somebody said, oh, that one freeway is awful. There's 10. Which one are you talking about? They all suck. Chad: They do. Joel: Yeah. Not built for the traffic here, but... Chad: The trains. Joel: Smaller more manageable than New York. Chad: Yes. Joel: Bigger than Boston. Six pro sports teams... Chad: And Shaker's here. Joel: Lake, decent weather... Chad: Skill scout's here on video. Joel: Considering the news. Everywhere's on fire, everywhere is flooded. [laughter] Chicago is a broad shouldered, environmentally sound city that people can visit or live. Chad: Another great place right now is Spain. I don't know if you saw the Women's Cup. Joel: I did. Chad: World Cup. Joel: I did. Chad: Yep. Joel: I saw the highlights. I'm not gonna try to tell you, I woke up at 6:00 AM to watch it. Chad: Second time in a row. You chose London. Joel: Yeah. Chad: And you failed. So all of our listeners in the UK don't blame the lionesses that, their injuries, anything like that. Blame... Joel: Blame me. Chad: Joel Cheeseman, kids. Joel: How much does it suck to be an English fan? They always get right there and then... Chad: They've got... Joel: And then fumble it. Chad: Yes. Joel: They're the Cleveland Browns of the soccer world, I think. Chad: [laughter] Or it could be the Chicago Bears. Hopefully they play a hell of a lot better this year. Joel: Yeah. So shout out to some friends here in Chicago. Chad: Yes. Joel: We had dinner, that goes to Matt Grover of Recruitics and Ben Russell at Sonic Jobs, took us out to a fine Italian restaurant. I had the chicken parm. I think you had some sort of fish thing. Chad: Sea bass baby. Sea bass. Joel: Sea bass. Yeah. Gotta keep that figure. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: In check, which then resulted into shocker, whiskey afterwards. [laughter], and then a slight hangover this morning for sure... Chad: Oh yeah. I blame Ben on that one. I kept finding new topped off glasses of whiskey and... Yeah. Joel: Yeah. Good selection. Chad: Yeah. It was very soft. Joel: The Widow Jane is a winner. If you haven't tried that. Have you haven't tried that case? Chad: It is delicious. So... Joel: Thank you to Chicago. Chad: Yes. Joel: Great people. Great town. Chad: Beautiful. Joel: Let's get to some shout outs. Chad: So I'm gonna use my shout out time to play a new game I like to call back to the future. Joel: Back to the future. Chad: Yes. Joel: There's no DeLorean. Chad: No. Joel: For this one. Is there? Okay. Chad: So what I'm gonna do, Joel, is I'm gonna read two press release bylines to you from our friends over at CareerBuilder. Joel: Okay. Chad: Okay? And you're going to tell me... Joel: These are real headlines. Chad: These are real headlines. Joel: Okay. Chad: One happened in 2018 and the other one happened in 2023. Joel: Ooh. Chad: Just this week, right? Joel: Okay. Chad: I want you to tell me which one happened this week. Joel: Let's play. Chad: Number one. CareerBuilder launches pay per resume. That's number one. Joel: Okay. Chad: Pay per resume. Joel: Needed that about 10 years ago. So that's... Chad: Okay. Joel: Okay. Chad: That's suspect. Right? It's suspect. The second one. CareerBuilder creates a major industry disruption with... Get ready. AI technology that delivers next generation job search and hiring. Joel: Ooh. Chad: Okay. So we've got a per resume. We've got patent pending, by the way, AI. Joel: Okay. Chad: From CareerBuilder. Joel: Okay. Chad: Which one of those press releases came out this week? Joel: Can I call a friend or do I have... Okay. Chad: No, there's no dialing, no calling a friend. Joel: Well, again, the pay per resume, pretty old. That's 10 plus years. Indeed did that. 2018 CareerBuilder was dropping Pokemon Go for jobs. Chad: Yeah. Joel: They were kind of getting sort of innovative, I guess for them. Chad: Getting jiggy with it. Joel: But I can't. It's gotta be the pay per resume. There's no way that that is 2023. [laughter] Joel: It is. Chad: So which one are you picking? Joel: I'm going with the pay per resume. That can't be a current headline. Chad: That is what dropped this week. Joel: Oh, geez. Chad: CareerBuilder dropped pay per resume as a new model. A new business model. Yes, that's right. Back to the Future, kids. We're talking about something that Indeed did what? Joel: Well... Chad: 10 years ago. Joel: We've had a good joke with the new CEO. Oh, what's his name? Abe Froman. The Chicago, the sausage King of Chicago. Something like that. Chad: Furman, I think it is. Yeah. Joel: If this is his, like... Chad: The real estate guy. The real estate guy. Joel: His first big headline. He's in trouble. Chad: He's. Joel: And they're definitely in trouble. Chad: He's literally in the office by himself. I... Oh my God. I'm sure of this. Joel: Oh my God. [laughter] Joel: Oh my God. Well, my shout out goes to Kid Rock. Mr. Ball With the Bar. Chad. Well, you might remember Kid Rock. Chad: Why? Joel: When we last saw him. Chad: Why? Joel: Shooting, literally shooting cans of Bud Light, flipping off Budweiser. Chad: Yes. Joel: And dropping F-bombs everywhere. Chad: Yes, 'cause that was cool. Joel: Well, Mr. Rock, which is what his accountants call him. Mr. Rock was seen drinking, you guessed it, a Bud Light this week reunited. And it feels so good, Chad. Thought leaders have two things going for them. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Not thought leaders, influencers. Chad: Yes. Joel: Attention. Chad: Yes. Joel: And trust. After he blew up cases of Bud Light and told to F off, does he have any trust with his users now that he's back to drinking Bud Light? Chad: All I can say is in his defense, you can take the kid out of the trailer park. You can't take the trailer park out of the kid. Joel: Yep. I ain't straight outta Compton. I'm straight out the trailer. [laughter] Joel: Another shout out... Chad: Yes. Joel: You know I love the Canadians. S?: Take off. We're doing our movie. Don't wreck our show. You hoser. Joel: We talked about LinkedIn partnering with CLEAR. Chad: Yes. Joel: To authenticate profiles. Chad: Yes. Joel: Well, that was an American only solution. Now they've rolled it out to our friends up north. Now our Canadian friends can basically be real people with CLEAR and LinkedIn. So if you go to LinkedIn in Canada, you should start seeing, do you wanna authenticate your profile. Chad: Yes. So, all the five LinkedIn users from Canada are gonna have access. That's awesome. I love it. Joel: That's cold, man. Chad: [laughter] Joel: That's cold. They're at least up to six or seven at this point. Chad: We've got free stuff. Let's talk about that. Joel: It's hard to compete with linkedina.com, which is the competitor there in Canada. Chad: That's bad. Joel: Sorry. Chad: So bad. Joel: Bad jokes come to... Come with me to Chicago too. Chad, we got free stuff. We brought some t-shirts to this event. Some people are donning some fine t-shirts... Chad: We might even get a Shaker T-shirt Cannon. Joel: Yeah, we got Shaker swag to take home with us. But for people that didn't get a shirt here at Shaker HQ, you can go to chadcheese.com, click the free link, give us your contact information. We got free shirts from our friends at JobGet. We're giving away free beer from our friends at Aspen Tech Labs. Chad: So good. Oh, craft beer. Joel: And maybe most importantly, free whiskey from our friends in the Netherlands. Textkernel. Chad: I still have a headache this morning thinking... Just thinking about free whiskey. Carry on. Joel: I do remember our debate last night as to how early we were gonna get up. Chad: Yes. Joel: It went from 7:00 in breakfast. [laughter] Joel: To 9:00 and I'll just see at the... I'll see you there, kind of thing. Chad: Yeah. Joel: That was good. Chad: And ended up being 10 o'clock. Joel: In addition to free stuff, Chad. We got some birthdays to celebrate as we normally do. Chad: Birthdays. Joel: Some big hitters, big hitter birthdays. Chad: Who? Joel: This week we got Tracy Cole. Chad: Oh. Joel: Bradley Clark. You might remember we celebrated his co-founder at Rectxt last week. So Bradley... Chad: Fucking Canadians everywhere. Jesus. Joel: Another trip around the sun. That's right. Chad: That's crazy. Joel: Andrea Wade. Chad: Yes. Joel: In Ireland. Chad: Love her. Joel: Beverly Collins. Chad: Ooh. Joel: I wonder if she got a new Maserati for her birthday. Who knows. Chad: She might have. Joel: Who knows? It could have happened. Chad: I hope she did. Joel: Nick Livingston. Chad: Oh. Joel: Our friend at Honeit. Aman Brar on the beaches... Chad: Wow. Joel: Of Fiji or Bora Bora at this moment, probably. Joey Stubblebine celebrates a birthday. Chad: Nice. Joel: Dina Funky cold Madeiros and my wife Dr. Christine Picard Cheeseman celebrates her birthday this week. So happy birthday to all our listeners that are celebrating another year. Chad: The Bug lady, does she go by that? Joel: You saw her license plate in... Chad: Yeah. Insect. Right. Joel: Insect. Yeah. Chad: Yeah. That's fun. Joel: That's fun. All right. Chad: So we're gonna go ahead and roll into events Kids. We've got RecFest coming up, September 13th and 14th in Nashville. What's happening at RecFest? It's gonna be a party, it's gonna be fun, it's gonna be learning, bonding, drinking, all that stuff. It's kind of what we do. So it's perfect for us and our listeners. Not to mention, for TA Pros and their entire teams, they should be bringing their entire team to this thing. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Even if, let's say for instance, a TA leader wants to come to do a little recon. Joel: Yep. Chad: Sounds great. But those who need that all-in-one kind of package for a team meeting. This is perfect. Go to RecFest, almost here about three weeks away. Joel: And I'm pretty sure our Groupon still works, doesn't it? Chad: It does. Joel: Use Chad and Cheese as your coupon code and we're talking half off. Chad: Yes. Joel: It is legit Groupon status. Chad: Yes. Joel: Discounts at Chad and Cheese everybody. Chad: Then September 20th we have a Gem Virtual event. These are slowly going away. Remember we were doing virtual events every other day. Remember that. Joel: Wasn't a fan in mass. Chad: Yeah. Joel: I can do it occasionally. Chad: I like it occasionally. Well, we're gonna have a Mona Sloane, PhD from NYU and Keith Sonderling. You know him as Commissioner. Joel: That's right. Chad: From the EOC, where we're gonna be talking about AI's ability to unlock recruiting efficacy, the trials, tribulations and reasons why or why not the recruitment community should embrace AI. Then HR Tech's happening. This is gonna be ridiculous. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Fuel50. We're gonna be in the Fuel50 booth for two days straight. So find us, bring us beer please. Food, beer, all that other fun stuff. But come to the Fuel50 booth and then the very next week, this is ridiculous. We're gonna hop on a plane and go to one of our most favorite shows in Paris. Joel: Yep. Chad: UNLEASH World. So we're really excited about that in October. I can't wait. Joel: Is there gonna be an AA booth at any of these shows? [laughter] Joel: 'Cause I'm a little scared about all this, but not nearly as scared, Chad, as fantasy football. That's right. People watching us on YouTube know that you were donning a Chicago Bears jersey, the Bears Justin Fields. If you love fantasy football, put in your name for our league, we'll be choosing players very soon. Chad: Okay. Joel: We'll be drafting very soon. Chad: Yes. Joel: And it's our third, I think installment of fantasy football. Chad: I think third or fourth. Joel: Third or fourth. Chad: Yeah. Joel: So, it's becoming a tradition... Chad: It is. Joel: Here at Chad and Cheese and we're excited. So if you love fantasy football, hit us up and put your name in the hat to get into the league. Chad: I'm getting texts every day from people who are trying to find their way into the Fantasy Football League. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Yeah. Joel: It's really funny 'cause I feel like we had to pull teeth to get the first round of people. Chad: Now everybody wants to do it. Joel: And, now that they know that, the leaderboard every week, it's so much fun. People want to get on it. And, big shout out to FactoryFix. Chad: For this jersey. Joel: Another fine Chicago company. Chad: Yes, yeah. Joel: For sponsoring Fantasy Football. We'll see you in September. Chad: And Mike and the kids over at FactoryFix for getting me this beautiful Justin Fields jersey. Joel: It is nice. They spent some coin on that. That's not the cheap... Chad: Not playing games. Joel: Street jersey that you get on the way to the game. Chad: No, it's not. Gotta watch it on YouTube though. Now we go to topics. Topics! Joel: All right. AI, first time. All right. Chad: Oh my God. Joel: New York Times. Chad: This is constant. Dude. Joel: The New York Times and OpenAI could end up in court, Chad. The Times is considering suing OpenAI over intellectual property rights as negotiations for a licensing deal falter, concerns arise that AI like ChatGPT could replace original reporting, legal implications of AI's use without permission remain uncertain. Chad, How is this case going to shake out? Chad: It's fairly, I mean, this is going to be commonplace and, I mean, OpenAI actually has, they put out a report, really instructions, on how to get your site ready to not be scraped, indexed or what have you. So I think, we've learned from the days of Google, robot TXT files, right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: So what those robots can actually come after data wise and get, and what they can't. So this is, this isn't anything new. It's... You mentioned the banana in the tailpipe [laughter], which is brilliant. I'm not going to fall for the banana in the tailpipe again, New York times, they're not falling for the banana in the tailpipe. Joel: Yeah. So historically, Google took content from newspapers, created a advertising model. Chad: Yes. Joel: I.e. A money printing machine in the back of the office and the New York Times and other newspapers fell in revenue and eyeballs, et cetera. And more and more of that is happening as Google is just taking snippets of news, answering questions. Nobody even goes to news sites anymore in most cases. Chad: Yeah. Joel: So the New York Times learned their lesson that, we let Google take all the money, Facebook take all the money, and we're not going to fall for the banana in the tailpipe again, [laughter] and let openAI and Bard and everything else take money off our plate. Joel: Because we own the content and we should be paid fairly for that. Now, historically, there's some interesting precedent cases. So number one, you have Google scanned books at one point, and you could get Moby Dick and other historical books and things off the internet. There was a case against that. The court said that that was okay, because it wasn't an original take on what was already done. These are books that are already in the public space. But then there was another case with artist Andy Warhol. Chad: Yes. Joel: Where he would take historical pictures and he would do the Andy Warhol thing with those. Now he lost that case to be able to do that. So where in the justice system are they going to put what OpenAI is doing with content, are they going to win or lose. I think it's a very important case of how the future of AI is going to pan out. Chad: Yeah. Joel: And we will continue to watch it very closely. Chad: Yes. It is... It's not just text and that's what we cared about mostly with Google. And I mean, they did also with images, but yeah, we're talking, this is multimodal. So it will be something that will continue to happen. But again, anybody who cares about guarding their contents there's way to... There are ways to do it. Joel: Yeah. If the New York Times was smart, it would build an alliance with all the other major newspapers and do an auction between OpenAI and Microsoft and Google and Facebook about who's gonna to get our content to model their AI after, and make a ton of money from one of those companies. Well, New York Times, but also the New York State of... Chad: Empire State of Mind, baby. Joel: Is in the news. A new bill in the New York State Senate proposes regulations for AI tools and employee monitoring and decision making tools used must be deemed necessary requiring clear notice and must undergo a bias audit. Employers must notify employees about their use, violations may result in fines. Get this, Chad, hold onto your seats, of up to $1500 for subsequent offenses. Chad, what is your take on the New York state of mind? Chad: Well, this is two aspects that they talk about, Monitoring tools and automated decision making tools. Right? So the bill prohibits these employers and employment agencies. I think this... The employment staffing agencies are really the ones that could take the big hits here. And I'll tell you why here in a second. On the, not just the monitoring, but the automated decision making. Because if you take a look at every instance, right? And they're talking about instances because the fines seem pretty pathetic, but when you scale and you're scaling decisions with AI and you make 30,000 decisions in a second, 30,000 times 1500, 30,000 times 500, right? Yep. So it does seem pretty pathetic. But if there are all these instances against who knows how many individuals in a specific timeframe, Yep. Then this could be a big fucking problem for companies. Now they talk about auditing, right? Joel: Yep. Chad: And that you must audit within a year's timeframe. I think any, this is great for consulting companies by the way, but I think any company who, especially major Fortune 500 company, who waits a year to do an audit, is actually, they're tripping themselves up. They should be auditing every quarter. Fortune 500 companies, staffing companies who have a multitude of clients and brands that they have to serve. They should actually have a whole unit of people who are doing this, at least on a monthly basis. Because again, if you're making that many decisions through automation, and they are for all those different brands. This could rack up a huge, huge bill. And what New York City did early on, their legislation, their regulations or proposed regulations had a lot of holes in it. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Right. And we talked on the show back then that this is just the first step. Don't get ready for, perfection right out of the gate. I mean, we're talking about the government. If you're looking for perfection on the first step, I mean, come on. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Really. This is tying up a bunch of loose ends, closing some gaps. It's not perfect, but it is definitely, a step in the right direction. And employers and staffing companies have a lot of work to do because they could be caught in a ringer pretty quick. Joel: Yeah. I gotta laugh outta this. 'Cause it reminded me of the pay transparency laws, in New York, that happened and people were posting jobs of 0-2 million [laughter] in salary, which is, I guess that's pay transparency technically, but, those companies got pinched pretty hard. Chad: Yes, and they should be. Joel: For those job postings. I mean, look, you mentioned, businesses are going to be created for consulting. There's going to be audit companies that have official badges or official certification. Chad: They're already out there, dude, that's a thing. Joel: They're going to make a lot of money doing this, assuming it spreads in other states and cities. Lawyers are going to make a lot of money... Consulting with companies. Chad: Yes. Welcome to America. Joel: The lawyers are gonna make a lot of money. But ultimately what you said in terms of the winner here is the citizen, the worker. It's amazing to me how many people at work don't know that their company can read their email or that... Chad: Yeah. Oh God. Joel: Companies are looking at calls sheet. So the fact that that wasn't... Hey, we're gonna... You need to alert people that you're doing that. Yeah. Let's at least make this right. That if you're using highly scalable mass data points to figure out who's doing what, who's at risk of whatever, who's a threat to whatever, that people know about that. And that they can act hopefully better than they would if they thought they weren't being watched. Chad: Well, on the monitoring side of the house, during remote work. I mean, we've stepped into an entirely different narrative around how people are working from home. That's their space. Right. There's no reason... I don't care if they're doing work and it's your work or not, that's still their space. It's their home. So there's gotta be some respect that happens there. Joel: Yeah. Chad: No. We've talked about some companies using the cameras, automatically keeping the cameras on, so that they can monitor, visually monitor their employees while they are working or not working, keystroke programs that are actually installed. They're all irrelevant to be quite frank, because at the end of the day, if the job is getting done, if the KPIs are getting met, if the goals are getting hit, I don't care when you're in front of your computer. As long as you're not missing meetings, you're doing your job, you're meeting all those things. I don't care. This is a culture of control that we're seeing. Joel: Unless you're rocking a Jeffrey Toobin, it shouldn't matter what you're doing at home. Chad: Just another reason not to do it. [laughter] Joel: And look, this is gonna make companies think twice about, should we do this? If we have to let our people know that we are tracking this, ultimately, a lot of companies aren't gonna buy these products and services. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: The companies that create them need to think about, okay, if the future of our product is transparency, what kind of future do we have? We're not hidden in the shadows. We're not this sort of checking your keystrokes and what's going on. So full transparency here, I think is good for everybody. To your point of the fines, hopefully those have teeth. Typically, unless someone is in an orange jumpsuit, nothing changes. But if there's some real penalties for some of these companies, then things hopefully, hopefully will change. Well, more AI, we're gonna get artsy-fartsy on everybody, Chad, which we normally don't do on the show, but... Chad: Andy Warhol? Joel: A US district court has ruled that AI generated art cannot be copyrighted. The judge stated that copyright requires human authorship, citing past cases like the monkey selfie. Remember the monkey selfie? Chad: Yes. Joel: Google it if you don't know. While acknowledging AI's role in new artistic frontiers, the ruling raises questions about how much human input is needed for AI created art to be copyrighted. Any thoughts on this ruling, Chad? Chad: It can't be enforced, period. I mean, it was funny, 'cause we've been talking for years about the whole whack-a-mole scenario on how there are gonna be programs that can identify these things. In this new world that we live in, that will not work and here's why. If you build a program for, let's just say, ChatGPT, OpenAI, right? That is one large language model. As we start to have these new islands of large language models that are built, they're gonna be millions easily. Right. And there are plenty that are out there already. It's just that OpenAI's new glory. Everybody now knows about them, but they're gonna be millions of these local LLMs that are out there. Yep. And they're all trained on entirely different data. If you're trying to tune one for a certain large language model, it's not tuned for all of them. So you're going to have to... It's gonna be impossible to keep up with the ones that are public, that you have access to. Let alone the ones that are private in their own private domains. It's gonna be impossible. So the whole whack-a-mole scenario is it's not gonna exist, 'cause you can't keep up with it. It's scaling too fast. Joel: Yeah. Yeah. So I was trying to spin this as an employment take on this. And I think I got it. So we're in Chicago. We're in Chicago here. And who's arguably the greatest athlete in his sport that played in Chicago in the '80s and '90s. Chad: Yes. Joel: Guy named Michael Jordan. Chad: Jordan, MJ. Joel: Well, there's a movie called Air, which I recommend. If you haven't seen it, starring Matt Damon and Ben Affleck, imagine that, about the Nike Air story, how they landed Michael and there's a conversation in the movie where Ben Affleck, who's the founder of Nike says how they got the logo. They paid $35 to some local creative to make it. Chad: Yeah. Joel: And she got $35. But I'm thinking like, if that was today, they wouldn't need an artist to create a logo. They could AI make me a ton of different logo options. Chad: Yeah, yeah. Joel: Pick from those... Chad: Easily. Joel: And we're done. So there's gonna be a lot of creative people that are either gonna have to harness AI in a new way to be more hireable or more valuable, because a lot of companies are going to bypass creatives, whether it be video, whether it be audio, whether it be design, and take creatives totally out of the picture. So to me, it's like, if I'm a creative person, I'm thinking really hard about how do I create original stuff with AI and how do I do stuff with AI that no other creative can do? Chad: You should be using this to scale, no matter what job you have. Right. I mean, look for ways to actually scale this, whether you're in marketing, whether you're in sales, whether you're... I mean, it doesn't matter. You're looking for different ways to progress and scale what you can do and do more of. Joel: Yeah. It's the adage that's becoming popular. If you won't lose your job to AI, you'll lose your job to someone that understands AI. Chad: Exactly. Joel: And with that, let's take a quick break and we'll talk about Grindr. I hardly even know her. Chad: Excuse me? Joel: All right, Chad, LinkedIn has had wannabe competitors over the years for sure. And we've talked about some of them, Polywork. Joel: Jobcase. [laughter] Joel: LinkedIn for those who aren't on LinkedIn and many others. But let's talk about some new participants. First up is X, the artist formerly known as Twitter. Chad: Okay. Joel: We recently talked about job postings being available to verified corporate accounts, but new rumors include a job search function. And Laskie's former CEO, who was acquired by Twitter has hinted at a matchmaking feature on the social network. Then you have competition in the form of some unexpected places. But Chad, I wanna get your take on X's new rumors about enhancing their job search functionality. Chad: So, I thought it was interesting because I had never heard of Laskie. I don't think you had either, had you? Joel: No. Chad: Yeah, they were... Joel: That was a shocker. Chad: They were acquired. They were acquired. I was like, who the hell is Laskie? Which was the job matching site that Twitter acquired in May. The CEO, Chris, I think Bakke or Bakke or. Joel: Bakke, I think. Chad: Okay. Joel: Yeah. Chad: He was also a founder of Interviewed, the interviewing company that Indeed bought, he was at Indeed for a couple of years, left and started Laskie. He did that with his co-founder who took the same trail, the CTO, his name is, what is it? What is it? What is it? Daniel O'Shea. So they've got some experience in this space and they have sold now two companies, to some pretty big brands. Right. Here's the big problem. We've talked about this before. LinkedIn has more data on me than any other platform out there. Intent, context, all of it. They suck at matching. Right. Indeed has a lot of information. Right. They suck at matching. Twitter doesn't have any information about me and what I do, so there's really no context to be able to help me find a job. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Other than jobs near me, which could be admin assistants and things that I really don't care about. So I think it's interesting. Can they get information on me? Can they scrape, do a high queue and try to scrape LinkedIn? [laughter] Or something like that. I don't know how they get the data because I'm not gonna give it to them. I don't trust them. I don't trust them with anything. Joel: Yeah. So there are two sides to this, and one is our company is gonna sign up to post their jobs on Twitter. And I tend to think a lot of companies will spend the 12 grand, which is the current price tag, if they can get their jobs on Twitter, especially if there's a search box, there's functionality. Chad: Isn't only five though. There's an XML feed and then you can like promote five. Joel: It's a little unclear, Chad. Chad: Yeah, it's weird. Joel: Much like all the things that are going on at X, it's a little unclear, but if they do create a search box or their search box includes Hey, search for jobs, and there's like an all encompassing search, companies will jump on board to get their jobs on Twitter. They just will, that'll be something that's not a huge, huge expense. Chad: They'll do it badly. Joel: Huge expense. Joel: Yeah. They'll, yeah. XML feed, upload, whatever, and, and will X be able to handle that correctly. So I do think there will be a good number of companies that say, oh, I can put my jobs on X. Like, yeah, it's how much. Okay, cool. And we're verified and we get all that other shit that a verified company gets. We get the gold check. So I do think that they'll find, they'll get some leverage with companies. The point that you bring up to is the job seeker and Twitter's brand right now is you post little snippets of your thoughts and links and you comment on them. Chad: It used to be a little snippets. Joel: Yes. So now every indication is that Elon wants to be the super app that is popularized in China... Chad: The WeChat, yeah, the WeChat. Joel: And places in Asia. And if he succeeds in that, then if you think of it as everything, then finding a job or networking becomes maybe part of that value add. So the real challenge to me is, can Elon pull off this everything app where you can get your car, you can pay for everything, and now you can like network and upload a profile that's professional. And I mean the matching, they do have the data. They do have people on the platform. So if they know by where you are locally, can they... Chad: They don't have enough data though. Indeed has more data on me. Joel: Oh, for sure. Chad: Right. And they still do a shit job of matching. Joel: They have a long way to go. Chad: They're horrible. Joel: To compete with LinkedIn. Chad: Yeah. Joel: But can they get the young people to embrace X as opposed to LinkedIn is where my grandpa put his profile. [laughter] Joel: So I don't know. It's fun to watch Elon's always good TV, good podcasting, good everything. So we'll continue to cover this, but I... Chad: He's a fucking train wreck. Yeah. Joel: The good news is, I think he's serious. I think I mentioned he came up with PayPal with LinkedIn's founder Reid Hoffman. So he's seen this, it is low hanging fruit to get companies to post jobs and people to do that. So I think he is serious and I think it'll be fun to watch. He's got an uphill battle, especially with this everything app thing. But it will be fun to watch. Chad: Remember when we thought Facebook was serious about this? I think the same thing's gonna happen. Joel: And google was serious about it and they're a little more serious about job postings 'cause I think that's easier for them. Chad: Yes. Joel: But yes, we've seen companies come and go and get the hell out of it because it's a pain in the ass for the most part. Chad: Yeah. Joel: And Elon will probably lose interest. He'll get bored and shoot off some rockets or dig a hole in LA or something. Chad: Yeah, that Squirrel moment. Yeah. Joel: Yeah, a Squirrel moment for him. Well, from X to maybe XXX to some people, you may know Grindr as the go-to destination for LGBTQ+ people looking for a hookup, Chad. But apparently it's now being used as an alternative to the likes of LinkedIn users checking into the dating app to see how many feet they are from a potential love interest can now expect to be poached for work rather than asked out. That's because around 25% of its users are on the app to network according to the company. Chad, should LinkedIn be losing any sleep over Grindr? Chad: No. Chad: I I think it's incredibly creepy. I mean I am so uninformed about, I've never used Grindr and then when I started reading this that you could actually see the proximity of how close you are to, I mean, it is like the the perfect stalker app. I mean, it is creep as fuck dude. And then okay, think of it, just think of it from this standpoint. Oh my God, this brings an entirely different vantage point to company culture. Literally your company culture is a hookup culture, that to me does not go together at all. Right. [laughter] So if you're looking, I mean if you're looking to diversify. We've talked to Mitch Yuova at my myGwork that is a company that was focused on creating a LinkedIn property, for the LGBTQ+ community. Right. This is this is no this is trying way too hard. Don't mix my hookups with my hiring. That is a recipe for fucking disaster in the workplace. Joel: Yeah. So there is some some historical precedence for this. Bumble is also a dating app from what I hear on the news, Chad, but they launched Bumble Bizz a few years ago to compete with LinkedIn. You don't hear a lot about Bumble Bizz. I think it's safe to say. You don't hear a lot of companies and employers using it. So to me Grindr, if they ever did get Grindr Bizz, I don't know what they would call it. I don't see that taking off. Just like I didn't see Bumble taking off. However recruiters are gonna recruit and they're gonna think outside the box. They're gonna try to get creative. And for them to sit outside the corporate headquarters of said company that they wanna poach from, look on Grindr of who is there. Chad: Can you imagine asking your recruiters to go on Grindr to do that? Joel: You won't ask recruiters. They'll just do... You know recruiters, man, they do whatever it takes to get in front of the companies. Chad: I don't care... Joel: Employees... Chad: I don't wanna know whatever it takes. Okay. Joel: This will continue to be a fringe resource for recruiters to poach from people at companies while they're at work. Hey, can we meet up for lunch? I'd like to talk to you about whatever, not a hookup or whatever. And then they pitch them on the job opportunity, that is going to happen. Just sit outside of Microsoft's headquarters, get on Grindr and see who's there and then connect with those people and hire them is gonna happen. And apparently obviously is. Chad: I got nothing, man. Joel: You got nothing. Chad: I got, I literally got nothing. It twists my mind to think what type of company culture you're building in going after people that way. I mean, there are great professional networks that you can get into... For all these different communities. When the network starts with a a hookup it's an entirely different mindset. To be able to build your company on. Joel: Do you remember when Twitter first came out and people started recruiting on Twitter? Chad: That's entirely different though. I mean, we're talking about a micro blogging platform versus a hookup app? Yeah. This is totally different. Joel: Even though the company says 25% of the users use it to network and make friends and contacts. Chad: I call that bullshit. Joel: You call it bullshit. Chad: Their version of network is not the kind of professional networking that we're talking about. Joel: Grindr may be a public company, I'm not, I'll have to check that but I know that they've talked about it. Going out as a SPAC, if they were going public this would be the perfect sort of narrative to say we're not just a hookup site, we're a LinkedIn competitor and that is gonna sell a lot of shares. I'm sure. Chad: Like Handshake and all the other... We're the new LinkedIn. No, you're not. Joel: All right. Well let's go from the new LinkedIn to the new EEOC, I guess, the America First Legal Foundation led by former Trump advisor, Steven Miller has requested that the EEOC investigate corporations including Activision, Blizzard and Kellogg claiming that their diversity equity and inclusion policies violate anti-discrimination law. The foundation alleges that these policies disadvantage white heterosexual men. The foundation's efforts are considered a move to discouraging employers from implementing DEI programs causing a potential conflict. Within the EEOC stance on diversity initiative. Chad, your thoughts and how much have you donated to the American First Legal Foundation? [laughter] Chad: So you had to see this coming. I mean affirmative action was struck down by the Supreme Court. That was the first domino. This is gonna be a wave. The actors here, the players, America First Legal Foundation, if you're listening to this podcast and you don't know the history of America First. Look it up back in the '40s. You've got to understand where this is actually coming from. And Steven Miller, I'm not even gonna talk about that guy. Here's a quote from Bloomberg Law. America First has accused Morgan Stanley, PWC, McDonald's and Starbucks and many more of having discriminatory DEI programs that aim to increase workplace representation of women and minorities. Wait for it, wait for it, at the expense of white heterosexual males, at the expense. End quote. Okay. So here's newest Pew Research when we're talking about expense. Okay. Joel: Dude, you're dropping Bloomberg Law and Pew Research in the same thing. You're gonna blow my mind up. Chad: White women are paid 83 cents on the dollar as men. Black women 70 cents on the dollar, Hispanic women 65 cents. And yet they feel like this is happening at the expense of the heterosexual white male. Another quote from Bloomberg Law, "It also targets the company's employee network groups for women racially and ethnic minorities, LGBTQ+ workers and others saying that they are also discriminatory because no such group exists for white heterosexual male." So I asked Julie because she is literally the expert in all things of this nature on the diversity side all that stuff. So I asked her I said have you ever heard of a white man ERG? And without missing a beat she said yeah I know they've been around forever. They call them the C-suite and the board of directors. Right. This is total bullshit. That was a touche moment for me. Joel: Mic drop moment. Yeah. Chad: To be able to say that they're disadvantaged is ridiculous. And the question is why is this happening and why are we seeing this happen so fast? And I have one clue. 2040. In 2040 or around 2045. The white demographic in the United States is going to become the minority. There are a lot of white men in power who are afraid. They're fearful for what that actually means. And that's why this shit's happening. The EEOC basically is ensuring companies and their separate locations look like the communities that they're in. That's all they're doing. Right. So to be able to attack these things, and we're gonna see it, you know, obviously go to the Supreme Court. This is gonna be an issue and it's gonna get worse as we get closer to 2040. Joel: Yes. So you remember in the '80s the Sci-fi series, V? Chad: Yes. Joel: For those that don't, it's not worth your time to go check it out on YouTube or wherever it might be. Chad: A trailer. Joel: Basically, aliens come to earth, they look like humans. So we can't like place them as regular. Chad: No clue where this is going. Joel: And there's a big episode where a woman has a baby that's part alien and part human. That's Steven Miller. He's one of the lowest forms of people. Chad: Ever, yeah. Joel: So you mentioned the Supreme Court. We knew this was gonna happen. Chad: Yeah. Joel: We knew what happened in schools. We knew what happened in corporate life. And this is a reaction to that, at its simplest form this is a grift by him and the organization. They're gonna raise so much money from donors, that wanna fight this fight. Chad: The Kid Rocks of the world. Joel: He's gonna make it. They're gonna make a ton of money. He's gonna get a ton of airtime on every television show, podcast. Chad: It's fucking ridiculous. Joel: In this episode, so he's on an ego trip. He's making tons of money from this. It's a grift. The sad part about this, and we discussed this in prior episodes, is that we have politicized diversity. We have politicized... Chad: We have demonized diversity. Joel: Sure, sure. Chad: This organization has demonized diversity. Joel: And the money raising happens on both sides. Chad: Fucking horrible. Joel: What's so sad is that companies that I think had every good intention of focusing on diversity, focusing on a more inclusive company and workforce have now said, we don't want any part of this conversation. We don't want to be the next Bud Light. We don't want to be the next Target. Chad: So shortsighted. Joel: We talk more and more and we're seeing more and more stories about companies dropping their diversity programs. And it's because of this bullshit. What could have been a perfectly fantastic period of inclusion has been politicized, demonized, and this is what we see as a part of it and it's a fucking shame. Chad: Well, and this is a call out to all the DEI leaders that are out there. All the ones that I've talked to over the years that say, I will not talk politics. This is what happened. Politics knocked on your door. You didn't answer. Right. You didn't answer. Then they kicked your door down, went into your pantry, took your Cheetos, sat on your couch, and started watching Fox News. The question is, what are you going to do about it? You DEI leaders who weren't gonna talk politics, guess what? Too damn bad. You have no choice now. You gotta get out there and fight. And if you don't, more of this shit's gonna happen. And that's the hard part, especially in the employment side. Joel: And those are flaming hot Cheetos, by the way, Chad [chuckle] So everyone should be doubly pissed off about that. Well, let's take a breath. Chad: Yes. Joel: And we're gonna bring Joe Shaker, president of Shaker Recruitment Marketing for a little fireside chat Chicago style. And we're back. Joe Shaker Jr: Hey guys, how are you? You know what? Actually, I should welcome you all. So welcome to Chicago. Welcome to Shaker Hub, as we like to call it. Chad: Oh, the Hub. Joel: Always a pleasure. Joe Shaker Jr: And I gotta tell you, it's been fun... Chad: It's gorgeous, dude. Joe Shaker Jr: It's been fun sitting backstage watching the show, seeing what, how animated you all are. But I have to tell you, I'm so happy that I did not join you guys last night for dinner. Joel: Yeah. Joe Shaker Jr: 'Cause I feel great today. Joel: That was a good choice. And with the Cubs battling for the wild card spot, you have a little pep in your step. You're a little better mood than normal. Joe Shaker Jr: I think you're five back, is that right, Joel? Five? I think you're five. Joel: Yeah. I don't... I'm not looking. I'm not Browns. We'll talk Browns at the end of the interview. But the Cubs you gotta be excited about that. Joe Shaker Jr: I am excited. But it's the Cubs, so let's see how they close out. [chuckle] Joel: Yeah, I know how that goes. So some of our listeners don't know, you don't know Shaker. Give us a quick sort of Twitter bio on you and the company. Joe Shaker Jr: Sure for those that don't, I'm Joe Shaker Jr. President of Shaker Recruitment Marketing. All I've ever done is recruitment and advertising. I took over the business from my father about eight or nine years ago, but I've been doing it since birth. My agency has been around for 74 years. It was started by my grandfather and we've been based in Oak Park, Illinois for about 30-40 years of the 70. Chad: It's a great little neighborhood. Joel: Great neighborhood. Chad: And this is a great location. Every time we come, it's like we got the whole escalator set up here, which no, I don't know any other. Joel: It's nice because there's parking. Chad: Yes. Joel: Downtown. You know, like forget about it. Chad: Yes. You're screwed. Joel: Yeah. Good luck. Good luck. Good luck. So Grindr for recruitment. Are you guys working on that now or? [laughter] Joe Shaker Jr: I always learn a thing or two on your shows and I learned something here today. Joel: All right. There'll be a meeting later to discuss the opportunities. Chad: There will be a Grindr meeting just so everybody knows the Shaker Grindr meeting's happening. Okay. Just so you're ready. Joe Shaker Jr: I also since you guys... Joel: Everybody download the app today. Joe Shaker Jr: Since you guys also start with callouts and you mentioned birthdays and you mentioned your wife. My daughter turns seven on Friday. Joel: Oh yeah. Joe Shaker Jr: And she actually is pretty, thinks I'm pretty cool today knowing that I'm gonna be on YouTube later this week. Joel: Ooh. Joe Shaker Jr: So happy seventh birthday to Marian. Chad: Yes. Joel: Very nice. Chad: Oh, we're gonna have to actually just go ahead and get a clip of that and send that to Marian so she can play it for the kids. I love that. Joe Shaker Jr: I gotta get some brownie points for that, I think. Joel: Joe knows some people that can edit some video, I think. Yeah. Chad: So Joe, we're gonna go ahead and hit you with a fastball right out the gate. Big news happening in the industry. Appcast buys Bayard, one of your competitors, friends but competitors, right. You guys have known each other forever. Joe Shaker Jr: Long time. Chad: Those guys have been in business for around 100 years. You guys were on 75. I mean, you guys are the heavyweights in this space. How surprised were you? First off. Joe Shaker Jr: That Bayard sold? Chad: And to Appcast? Joe Shaker Jr: So as soon as Shamrock bought Bayard the first time, right. PE comes in, they're not building another 100 year company. So are we surprised that Bayard sold? Of course not. Were we surprised that Appcast bought it? That was surprising. I didn't see that coming. Chad: So knowing that it was PE, knowing it's been around for 100 years, how surprised are you that they are ditching the Bayard name? Joe Shaker Jr: That did surprise me. Chad: Yeah. I was pretty set on my ass when I heard that... [chuckle] Joel: Were you more surprised that Twitter went away or Bayard went away? Joe Shaker Jr: Twitter. Joel: Okay. Joe Shaker Jr: I mean, Chris knows what he's doing. He's building one company. He doesn't wanna have the two separate brands so. Chad: Yeah. Joe Shaker Jr: We still lot of times talk about Indeed versus Glassdoor. Chad: Yeah. Joe Shaker Jr: Should it be one name or two? Chad: Right. Joe Shaker Jr: So right outta the gates. I think Chris is being very clear on where he is going and what his direction is... Joel: They should have called it Radiancy. Is that taken? Does anybody have that one? Chad: So that being said, you guys are obviously closely working and partnered with Appcast. Joe Shaker Jr: Correct. Chad: This is a weird dynamic now. There was always kind of this coopetition that was happening in the first place. But this goes to another level. Where do you guys go from here? Is there an opportunity to use other platforms along with Clickcast? What's the thoughts for not just Shaker but other agencies like yours? Joel: And feel free to... A lot of our listeners. Programmatic is new to them. Clickcast is Alien. A quick historical perspective on how we got here would help. Joe Shaker Jr: Well, you make a very good clear point there too, Joel. So you have to separate the two for the conversation. Joel: Yeah. Joe Shaker Jr: Clickcast and Appcast, you are correct. We use both. And we use, Shaker uses Clickcast as the technology to distribute our jobs. But I have a team of 20 plus really smart individuals that are then dictating where should we send those jobs based on data and Clickcast is that distribution arm. Chris and his team were at the forefront of that. Bringing that technology, that distribution tool to the table into recruiting and giving it to the groups like Shaker that can then dictate how we wanna send those jobs. But to be clear we control where those jobs go and use Clickcast as the distribution arm. Shortly thereafter, they came out with a product called Appcast, which drives applications to our clients. We judge Appcast no different than we would judge Indeed, Glassdoor, X, Facebook, Google, who's gonna drive the most applications based? Joel: No bias. Joe Shaker Jr: No bias. Joel: Best results are the web. Joe Shaker Jr: Where it's gonna go. And so Appcast is in those conversations and will continue to be in those conversations regardless of the fact that it's owned by Bayard. As long as the client is getting the results from those appropriate media sources, we will continue to use Appcast, Indeed, Google, X, and you name it, Clickcast is the technology. Until we see if there's better technology out there, we will continue to use Clickcast. Chad: There's a challenge, kids, there's a challenge, vendors out there. Joe Shaker Jr: We will continue to use it. Chad: Yeah. Joe Shaker Jr: And have our team managing it effectively. Joel: So we've seen instances where companies are acquired, they integrate the technology and the competition tends to kind of slowly exit stage left. ICIMS buying text recruits, canvas, Jobvite, these things happen. Have you been given an affirmation from Appcast that they're gonna stick around? They're not going to shut anybody off. You've been given... Are you under contract? That... Joe Shaker Jr: Which you hear is true. And I will say Chris is a reputable guy. We've all known him for a long time. Joel: Yep. Joe Shaker Jr: He's a man of his word and if he's trying to keep both going as well, and so what he said to you all and what you guys have reported on is accurate. He is managing our partnership and relationship no different than he did before it was bought by Bayard and he respects our decision. As long as Clickcast continues to distribute, I think there can be a way for both of us to compete as well as cooperate. Chad: He's one guy though, and he could be gone tomorrow. Joe Shaker Jr: He's got a good team though. Joe Shaker Jr: Yeah. Chad: Okay. So you trust the the the team in itself, not just Chris. Joe Shaker Jr: I trust my team. At the end of the day you also realize it's we're using the tool, but it's what we're doing with the tool. Chad: But they have access to your data though. Joe Shaker Jr: Not technically, legally, no. Chad: They're going through their system. Joe Shaker Jr: I don't think they're gonna be combing through it. Chad: Okay. Joe Shaker Jr: That would cause some bigger issues. Chad: I would think so. Joe Shaker Jr: Yeah. Chad: But again, to be able to poach clients and to be able to know results and effectiveness and all those, always looking for a market differentiator or at least something to try after new clients. Joe Shaker Jr: But as we even talked about, and you guys have talked about in this show today, we're mentioning Indeed, you're mentioning X, you're mentioning case in point, even Grindr. It's one piece to the total puzzle. So I mean, do companies... Yes. Do they pick you for just your programmatic technology? It's part of the equation. But it's not the only thing. So it's what else can we deliver on top of that? To your point. Yes. Could they see who my clients? You can walk down my walls and see who my clients are... Chad: Yeah. Joe Shaker Jr: As long as I believe. And what I was trained is do what's right for the client. First and foremost. We're not gonna have an issue about client retention. Joel: And that's 75 plus years of proof. Joe Shaker Jr: 73, 73 but I appreciate the fast forward. [laughter] Joel: I'm confident that she'll make it. So if we go upstream a little bit our listeners know that Stepstone acquired Appcast, Stepstone owned by Axel Springer, owns a lot of us... Are you putting any of those pieces together? Do you see a bigger strategy with the European arm and what Appcast is doing? Joe Shaker Jr: It's a clear direction that Stepstone wants, they've always wanted to come into the US market. This is just their first entree. With Appcast. Joel: Yeah. Joe Shaker Jr: Was a clear inclination as you also all reported on, they obviously bought AI technology still to be determined what they're gonna do with that. And now obviously made a big purchase with Bayard. It's evident that they are key in coming into the US market. Joel: And they'll be buying CareerBuilder Win. Joe Shaker Jr: Well, that's your call. Joel: Oh, that's my call. [laughter] Joe Shaker Jr: That's your call, not mine. Joel: I'm here in Chicago. You might have some in insider baseball for us in there, but unfortunately no. Chad: I just don't see that happening. Joe Shaker Jr: You can never say never. Chad: So what about for Shaker and take a look at again Europe as well, from a global standpoint, you guys work with huge brands. Joe Shaker Jr: Yeah. Chad: That have a reach into Europe and beyond how much more traction or even more penetration are you trying to get into those different markets? Joe Shaker Jr: Yeah, we're very proud to be the US representative to a global network called One Agent. Actually just in three weeks timeframe, actually all of our One Agent partners will be coming in to Chicago, where we're gonna be hosting them for three, four days of meetings. It's a good network. It's a way for us to... Joe Shaker Jr: Stay at the forefront, right? I mean, US is not always at the beginning of trends, right? We tend to think we are, but there's things that come out of those respective countries. So it's always a great time in those, during those sessions to meet with our partners to hear what's working, what's not in your markets, and then obviously vice versa. It also, yes, to your point, allows us to expand into those markets very quickly and have a full service agency that has branding capabilities, media buying capabilities, technology consult. They're built very similar to the way Shaker is to be able to address our client's needs and help them scale into those markets as well. Chad: So I'm hearing a London Hub, kids, or maybe even Paris Hub? Joe Shaker Jr: We got a great London partner. It's a hub wheel, it's a spoke in a wheel type of model. Chad: Nice, very nice. Joel: And we'll be recording live as soon as the office. [laughter] Joe Shaker Jr: You wanna go. They'll have beer. They got beer. Joel: Wherever you are. We'll be, Joe. You have an interesting perspective on the ground of what employers are asking for, what they want, what works. Chad and I have our head in the clouds so much with AI and Grindr and whatever else, right? What are employees, employers. Chad: Always with the Grindr. Joel: What are employers asking for? What's working, give us a on the ground take of the state of employment right now. Joe Shaker Jr: Yeah, I would say, I mean, well two big components, right? That are of everyone's interest, right? Ours as well as, which is then obviously in turn becomes our employers, is around data, right? And having that data case in, first and foremost be transparent. I think a lot of times, unfortunately, sorry, some clients, the data is being held back. They're not getting a full accuracy, right? In terms of what's working and what is not and so where are they getting their results, whether it be X, whether it be Grindr, whether it be Indeed, whether it be Appcast, whether it be Google, whether it be Facebook, you know, they don't necessarily care as much, as long as we can have the supporting case to tell them, this is why we're here, this is what they're getting, here's the results and here's how we can even make it more effective. Joe Shaker Jr: So I mean, data's always been talked about, right? It's always been an obstacle because ATSs. Chad: Yes. Joe Shaker Jr: Right? Always made that difficult. Those days are gone. Right? We can now get real access to it in real time and transparently then tell them this is what we're seeing and this is what we should do with it. That would be one of the, I mean, I would say one big trend. The second is around speed. And yes, you can call it automation over AI, but they don't... Employees don't have the time to sit and wait for a candidate three, four, five days to get an interview scheduled. Employee, candidates are not going to spend, we've been talking about candidate experience forever. They're not gonna spend an hour, right. Telling you this is what it's like to work here. So they, employers have to find ways in which to speed up the apply process and make sure that we get them through the bottleneck quickly and efficiently. Otherwise, spend all the money in branding, spend all the money in media. It's just gonna break. Chad: Now how much time are you spending with them on process? Because we all know that the process when we first went to paper applications to online, literally they just mimicked the exact process, right? And it's like there are still those old 1990s processes that are out there. They're just in digital form. How much time are you guys spending in trying to help them reformat, re-framework their process? Because they ask so many things that are really not necessary in many cases, just to be able to speed all that up. Joe Shaker Jr: Yeah. I mean, it's dependent on the client, right 'cause some clients control their HRS system others do not. Right? And so ultimately, right, you have to find out who's the right gatekeeper in controlling those decisions. But ideally we're gonna spend a third around the time around building that right message, a third around where we're gonna activate it and a third around what's that conversion gonna look like. Chad: Gotcha. Joe Shaker Jr: Because to the point earlier, like if you just focus on that one side, like even just the media side, it's not gonna be as effective, right? Having that authentic message is gonna give you that retention. The media's gonna drop their cost per click down and then the conversion is gonna convert more of them and bring that cost per hire down. I know it's a third, a third, a third but... Joel: Bada bing, bada boom. Joe Shaker Jr: It's simple as that. Probably you just call it a trifecta in horse racing. Chad: The biggest key is that we've been focusing on brand and messaging and all those things and drawing candidates in, and then they go through a shitty process and so what you're saying, what you're seeing is, most companies are starting to recognize that they really need to retool if they're gonna be competitive. Joe Shaker Jr: It's, and it's also a numbers game, right? Go back to data. If we know that it takes, let's just call it 20 applications to make a hire and we can drop that from 20 to 10, that's real money saved and so if you automate it, or we can work more efficiently and drive those numbers down, you can ultimately spend less money in those other buckets. Joel: You mentioned horse racing. I'm gonna let you out on this. The over under in Vegas for the Bears this season is 7.5 wins. Joe Shaker Jr: Over, over. So you over. Joel: Over. Joe Shaker Jr: Over, over. Joel: Under is the correct answer. We out. Chad: We out. Joe Shaker Jr: See ya. S?: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell. Enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuggle heads instead, now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back like an awful train wreck. You can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

Employees love to be recognized. It’s not just promotions and big deals, however. We’re talkin' birthdays, anniversaries, adopting a cat, everything. OK, maybe not a cat adoption, but you know what we mean. That’s why we brought Aaron Rubens, cofounder and CEO at Kudoboard to the show. He runs the online workplace appreciation solution for special occasions, shout outs, and everything in between, helping to replace the card that’s passed around and signed on birthdays, holidays, and special occasions for generations. Crazy thing is, they’re crushing it. To find out why - and how - you gotta listen. TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HRs most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Oh, yeah. What's up everybody? We're live from the Aaron Booth at SHRM in Las Vegas. This is your host flying solo, Joel Cheesman of the Chad and Cheese podcast. And today we welcome Aaron Rubens, co-founder and CEO of Kudoboard. Aaron, welcome to the podcast. Aaron: Joel, thanks so much for having me. Excited be here. Joel: Long time listener. First time, live podcast like most people on the show. So our listeners who don't know you, tell us a little about you, what makes Aaron tick, but more about the company, what you guys do. Aaron: Sure. I'll give you the, the genesis of the company then I'll tell you a little about me and, take it from there. So I used to be a high school math teacher a long time ago. Joel: How does that work with the ladies at the bars? Is that a big... Aaron: It's not great. Joel: Good enough. Aaron: But I was married by the time I got into it, so no a concern... Joel: Oh, okay. Aaron: And at the end of each year, I'd have students write their name on a piece of paper and they'd pass it around the classroom. And the idea was they had gotten pretty close over the course of the year. The instructions were, "Hey, each person write a little nice thing on the paper," and it comes back around. You get, 15-20 people writing something nice to you. And to be honest, it's one of these throwaway exercises that some other teacher told me, "Oh, it's a good way to like, capstone, bring people together, blah, blah, blah." Subsequent years, I had several students come up to me and say, "That was really special. Or I put it on my wall, or something that, like, it meant something to me." I never knew people thought that way about me. And I'll say, I would not do that at the beginning of the school year. Joel: Yeah. Aaron: You get, you get probably some bad stuff by the end you build the right culture, you bring people together. And this idea kind of stuck with me. And it wasn't until several years later when one of my good friends was turning 30 and we were all spread out across the country and we're like, all right, we gotta figure out a way to do some kind of birthday card for them. Joel: Yeah. Aaron: And we ended up putting together a website and each person recorded a video on YouTube and we upload, it was super janky and terrible. Joel: Yep. Aaron: We're like, well, there's gotta be a better way. And that was sort of the genesis of Kudoboard. It started as an online sort of replacement for the card that's passed around and signed. Joel: Yep. Aaron: And it's, primarily used in the workplace for things like birthdays, work, anniversaries, get wells, farewells, really anything where you want to bring a group together and celebrate an individual. Joel: And you were founded when in 2015. Aaron: It's been... It's been a road. Joel: Roughly. Yes. So it's been a road. Aaron: It's been a road. Yeah. And it started really as a side project. I had this thing I wanted to solve and I was like, well, we'll see if we can turn this into something. Joel: I would imagine the pandemic was great for you because you are replacing the card in the mailbox at the headquarters... Aaron: Yeah. Joel: That everyone signs at, lunch hour with a digital version of that. Talk about the pandemic and the impact. Aaron: Yeah. No, it was, I mean, we had started to get enough traction where, in the beginning it was part-time, and then it was full-time and I got a couple employees, but it was still super small. Joel: Yeah. Aaron: And then the pandemic hit and it went crazy and we grew 2000% Joel: That's crazy. Yeah. Aaron: Which it's partially it's low base. Joel: Yeah. We don't know where we're going from but... Aaron: Low base. But, it's this thing that was already sort of awkward and cheesy passing the card around. Joel: Yeah. Aaron: And then add the pandemic in and now it's awkward and cheesy and impossible... Joel: Yep. Aaron: To do. And so you come in with a solution that's easy, that's fun, it's not just writing, but you can add pictures, videos, gifs, just make it fun. Just make it like light. Joel: Yeah. Aaron: And convenient. Right. Joel: Yeah. Make it for the kids. Aaron: Exactly. Joel: One the kids could use. Aaron: For the kids. And you can print it out as a book. You get like that physical version that some people like to have, particularly like retirements, things like that. Joel: I'm dating myself but do you remember the SNL skit, frank singing songs that the kids will enjoy? Aaron: Yes. Joel: And it's Frank Sinatra. Okay. Look it up on YouTube kids if you don't know what I'm talking about. So you're a bootstrap business. It looks like you haven't taken any money or any significant money a little bit. So talk about that, the pros and cons. A lot of companies out there are bootstrapping, give them some advice. Aaron: Yeah. It was a road and part of it was, I think in the beginning I just didn't know, is this a venture scale business? And so I wanted, but I felt like I saw a path to bootstrap success. Joel: Yeah. Aaron: And I still remember like the nights in the... I dunno if you ever saw that show Silicon Valley. Joel: Yeah. Yeah. Aaron: But I remember the night where I was in the bathtub, nothing's in the bathtub. Just laying there. Like, "What did I do? Why did I get into this? This is terrible." Joel: By the way, you're still married to the woman you... Aaron: I'm still married. I'm still married. Joel: Okay. Good. Aaron: And she's been incredible. But eventually we sort of reached a point, we actually did raise a pretty large round of growth equity, about a year and a half ago now. Joel: Okay. Aaron: We kept it pretty quiet. Not secret, I mean, it's out there, but we didn't do... Joel: Can you tell our listeners the number. Aaron: We actually we don't announce it publicly. Joel: Interesting. Aaron: But... Joel: Interesting. Aaron: We usually play it close to the vest. Joel: CrunchBase doesn't know, and our listeners don't know what is going on. Wow. Aaron: Crunchbase doesn't know. Our listeners, don't know. We raised it from a firm who they really focus on, "Hey, we don't need to bet on a hundred businesses. So that one of 'em becomes Uber and the rest of them fail." Yeah. We want have 25 businesses that we all believe can three to five x and that gets us to a great outcome. And it's just a different model, you have to be profitable and to a certain level of profitability for that to make sense. And we were but... Joel: I wish I would've had that advice at the roulette table the other night 'cause I bet it all on black. Aaron: Hey. Aaron: And lost unfortunately. Aaron: At the roulette table you gotta go for it. Right. Joel: Talk about the competitive landscape. I'm guessing a lot of our listeners won't know some of the competitors and the competitive landscape. So talk about that. Aaron: Yeah. The primary competitor, they're actually at this conference as well. They're called GroupGreeting. Joel: Clever. Aaron: As you imagine they do group greeting cards, and where we sort of have differentiated ourselves from them over time, is oftentimes people start with this card that... But and it's shaped like a board, Kudoboard, whatever. Joel: Yeah, yeah. Aaron: But we've started to do a lot of like, big company events and shout outs and kind of moving the use case beyond just a card to more sort of engagement opportunities. So we have a lot of organizations, for instance, in June, a lot of organizations use it for Pride Month and they'll invite their whole organization to say, "Hey, how are you celebrating Pride Month or whatever." And different months different thing, Halloween, they'll do a Halloween costume contest and everyone can post their Halloween pictures and everyone votes on which one they like the best. So there's just these different ways to bring people together that expand the idea of like what a card can be. Sorry, I'm away from the microphone. Joel: That's okay. Happens all the time. Happens all the time. We can't all be professionals. Aaron: I'm a newbie. I'm newbie. I'm figuring it out. Joel: Talk about pricing 'cause that's gonna lead into my next question. Aaron: And I will be honest. I feel like we're still figuring it out a little bit. Joel: Okay. Eight years on, we're still figuring out the pricing. Aaron: I know. So there's kind of two ways you can engage with the platform. You can pay for it one board at a time, just like you'd go into a store and buy a Hallmark card. It's pretty limited in terms of the features that you get. But obviously the barrier to entry is super low. So we have thousands and thousands of people every day that are buying them individually. And then we have broader subscription options for companies. And it ranges from organizations of a few hundred to, you know, we have several customers, 50,000 plus employees that are using it organization-wide. And they'll pay hey 50,000 to 55,000 employees, this is the price. So tiered, essentially tiered pricing on the subscription side. Joel: And what's the typical client look like? I'm guessing it's on the, the SMB side, but I could be totally wrong on that. Aaron: No, I mean, we have a lot of healthcare organizations. So one way that they use Kudoboard that's a little unique is that we have them set it up and then they can collect notes of appreciation from patients or stakeholders in the community. Joel: Okay. Aaron: So one thing, a lot of like recognition or engagement solutions are very internal focused, only. Because Kudoboard's a lot more flexible you can also collect notes externally, sort of out to in, which makes a difference. But we work with a lot of large health systems. And then we also work with a lot of tech companies, basically people who are kinda remote. So like Gusto, Asana, folks like that, that have it available across the organization. Joel: Talk about the marketing 'cause the the pricing is pretty reasonable. So I haven't seen you on the Super Bowl, And I'm assuming I won't anytime soon, but talk about marketing. How do you guys get recognized? Aaron: Yeah. And this is something that like everything, it's evolving, but the way that we've grown primarily is based on sort of the, the natural viral mechanism of kudoboards. So like, if I create one for you, let's say it's your birthday coming up, I create one for you, and I invite 25 colleagues to post some percentage of those 25 colleagues eventually create their own. And it goes on and on and on. And we have 10 million plus people registered on Kudoboard, but at any given month we have 4 million plus people using it. Joel: Okay. Aaron: And so that's been a really nice, really low cost way to spread it far and wide. Joel: Is it like Hotmail where at the bottom it says powered by Kudoboard. Aaron: We haven't done that, but I think it's just you use something and you're like, oh, that was cool. Maybe like six months later, but I come back and do it again. So that's been our primary mechanism of trying to make that virality really smooth, really easy. And then what we find is over time we go to a company and we say, Hey you already have 15,000 employees that are registered on Kudoboard. Maybe rather than having them all buying individually and 10 team plans over here in this, let's move to a single company-wide plan. It is more expensive, but you get your integrations, your single sign-on, all that stuff that company's want. Joel: Does everyone get the gifs, that's the important thing. Aaron: Everyone gets the gif. Joel: Everyone gets it no matter what the price point. That's good. Aaron: What you get at the larger company is the ability to filter out gifs. Joel: And definitely not the naughty ones that I send to people. Aaron: Not the naughty ones. No. It's true. We have a very specific talk track around like, hey, this is how we screen out. Non-G rated gifs from Jiffy and all that kinda stuff. Joel: That's awesome. That's awesome. What's the global opportunity? Aaron: Yeah, I mean, right now we're about 70% of our revenue is in the US, 30% is, is outside the US. And to be honest, where we're limited is we're primarily in English speaking countries because the site is in English. And so I think like the next big step for us in terms of taking the product more global is going down the path of like translating it to Spanish or German or French or all those sorts of things. It requires a level of ongoing maintenance that we're not ready to do quite yet. But it's an opportunity that we're gonna take at some point. Joel: Got it. So this is primarily a recruiting employment show. Obviously onboarding. Welcome to the company, makes a lot of sense to me. Talk about that piece and then also how companies might look at creative ways to recruiting retention with the product. Aaron: Yep. No. Great question. One of the use cases that we push pretty hard and we see people have a lot of success with is to your point, that onboarding one and there's kind of two points at which it makes sense. So one is the point where someone gets an offer and you say, Hey congrats on your offer. You get everyone who's on the team who interviewed them to say great to meet you. We're really excited, we hope you join. And it goes out to them and it's just you get, obviously there's the hard parts of the offer. Like by that I just mean like there's the salary, the concrete things. Aaron: But then there's that softer thing that is trying to just give that little nudge. So that's one point where it makes sense. And then the other point is at onboarding. So you know, you're collecting posts from the colleagues who are gonna join and then the day their first day on their job, they come in and they get 25 emails on the different systems they need to sign up for and this that. And then they get this really nice thing from their colleagues saying, "Hey, we're so excited you're here." Some fun gifs and all that kind of stuff. Joel: Sure. Aaron: So what we have is a lot of large companies that have kind of built it in to their workflows. So it's like, Hey here's our standard onboarding workflow and step seven is create a Kudoboard, invite the team. And schedule it for delivery. And it takes two minutes for someone to do. So it's a pretty low lift. But it's just a nice thing to kind of separate you, you have someone with three offers and they're all great. You're trying to give 'em that little nudge. Joel: Yeah. And you have... You have sort of a keepsake component where you can print out the board. And frame it, etcetera. Talk about that a little bit. Joel: Yeah. So you can print it either as a poster or as a book. And the book is actually quite a bit more popular than the poster probably because the poster, the sizes could be kind of crazy just depending on the amount of content. But what we see is a lot of people for things like farewells, retirements things where like they're getting people writing really nice, less Gifs, but like really nice stuff. And they wanna save it. Sometimes they worked at a company 20, 30 years and they get these really nice notes and they get a book printed and shipped to them with all these notes after. And so we've had some companies, you asked earlier about like creative ideas. We've had some companies who just recently we work with one who had a, a voluntary buyout where they said, Hey, if anyone wants to take this, they can, they had a decent number of people take it. And they said, we're gonna create a Kudoboard for every single one of those people. Everyone's gonna sign it and then we're gonna ship 'em all a book at the end. And so it's just a nice way to like, give you something tangible to remember things by. Joel: Got it. So not something for the exit interview that people are using so much. Aaron: No, not so much the exit interview. The farewell use, it's funny 'cause the farewell use case is actually one of the most powerful. 'Cause people it's, they kind of, I only wish you had told me all these great things when I, when we were actually working together. But it's not the one we sell at the corporate level as much because it's not at that point, it's kind of beyond, they're on their way out. They're focused more on, to your point, like the onboarding, the ongoing experience things like that. Joel: Sure. ChatGPT, maybe you've heard of it being able... Aaron: Once or twice. Joel: To automate content and certainly the ability to write nice messages is now automated or AI powered. Is that making its way into the product or are you gonna keep it kind of human? Aaron: Yeah, it's, we have discussed it. And I think where we're leaning is offering a chatGPT assisted option for people who need a little inspiration. And that might look like Hey, what tone do you want? Oh funny or more serious or whatever else or tell us something interesting about the person you write a little thing and you kind of input some things. And then it kind of helps you form it into something. We're experimenting with that. I don't think we ever want it to be where, Hey, this is fully automated. You don't have to do anything. You just click a button and it does... 'Cause at that point, what are you even doing? Joel: Sure. Aaron: This is a product that's meant to like be authentic and bring people together. And yeah, you could automate that and hey you can automate the sending too. And you never have to even go in the product. It's just sending messages back and forth to itself. Joel: Yeah. Aaron: And it gets kind of silly. So I think we're probably not going to get to the fully automated place. Joel: Yeah. I wish some version of that would have existed for my yearbook signings. 'Cause the number of people just said to "a cool dude, have a good summer", was a bit repetitive. Aaron: Maybe a little illustration in there. Joel: Yeah. So anything else future wise, this product evolution, you mentioned chatGPT, you mentioned more languages, anything else that you're looking in terms of evolution? Aaron: Yeah. So, I mean, I think in the near term roadmap, one of the big things we're thinking about is just like, how do we make this more integrated and automated for our largest customers? And by automated, I don't mean the actual content. But like, Hey, we want to make sure that every single one of our employees get this for their work anniversary. Well, to do that, we need to integrate with your HRS system. We need to integrate with your, if you use teams, we need to integrate teams. And we have some of those integrations built. But getting them deeper and more powerful so that it works across the board for companies. It's big because it just drives a lot of engagement. Joel: Yeah. Aaron: And it doesn't require, what's really powerful is it starts with this bottoms up ad hoc use, but at a certain point you want to have a solution that says, "Hey, and if you do want everyone to get this, we can do that." So that's really where we're going in the next year or two. Joel: Sure. Integrations while a pain in the ass are a necessary evil... Aaron: They are. Joel: In this business. Aaron, for our listeners who want to find out more about the company or connect with you, where would you send them? Aaron: Yeah, absolutely. So they can go to Kudoboard.com to sign up and there's a free trial. You can always just get started super easy. And if you want to reach me, Aaron@Kudoboard.com. Joel: Very cool. That is another one from the Aaron Booth at SHRM in Las Vegas in the can. Thanks Aaron for joining us and we out. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast, or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey, or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on Tik Tok. No, you hung out with these two chuggle heads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

It’s a rare breed of professional that has worked on the vendor side of HR tech, as well as the TA practitioner side. So, when we got the opportunity to chat with Josh Rock, currently Talent Acquisition Manager at Nuss Truck, and former executive at JobDig, LinkUp and CollegeRecruiter, we jumped at the chance. Recorded at SHRM, it’s a candid conversation about the industry from both sides of the fence. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HRs most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Oh, yeah. What's up everybody? We're live from the Aaron Booth at the SHRM National Show in beautiful Las Vegas, Nevada. I am your host Joel Cheeseman, flying solo as Chad is getting his tan on in Portugal. And we are, well, happy to welcome Josh Rock TA manager at Nuss [laughter] Nuss Truck & Equipment. Josh Rock: That's correct. Joel: Tell me you are blue collar without telling me you are blue collar Nuss Truck & Equipment. Josh, welcome to the podcast. Josh Rock: Thanks Cheese. What's going on, man? Joel: Yeah. You're a longtime listener. Josh Rock: I am. Joel: First time interviewee. Josh Rock: Yeah. Joel: So we're excited to have you on. Now you are one of the magical unicorns [laughter] that have made the transition from vendor. Josh Rock: Yep. Joel: To practitioner. Josh Rock: Yep. Joel: Let's talk about the vendor side first. 'Cause you've had a long journey. Josh Rock: Yeah. Joel: Go. Josh Rock: I usually say I'm a recovering HR vendor. Never really goes away from you. Joel: Do you ever recover [laughter]? Josh Rock: No. No, you don't. Joel: There's no 12 step process for that. Is there? Josh Rock: Well, there might be 12 steps. I'm drinking lots of Mountain Dew, but we're still working on the recovery part. Yeah. I started my career 16 years in advertising. Worked with a company called JobDig in Minneapolis with Toby Dayton and Crew. Starting with. Joel: Sasquatch. Josh Rock: Exactly. 12 employees doing print online. I helped bring radio, developed it into TV. They created this thing called Fetcher, which became LinkUp. Joel: Oh my God. Josh Rock: Which is now Getwork by Adzuna. Joel: Fetcher. Josh Rock: I mean, it just goes on and on. I mean we even did a white label of cats one we called JobDig Tracker. Joel: LinkUp is their site as well. Josh Rock: LinkUp is... Joel: Were you there for that? Josh Rock: I was, now, so they turned, Fetcher into LinkUp. Joel: Okay. Josh Rock: And then LinkUp became Getwork, which is now owned by Adzuna. Joel: Got it. So Toby Dayton exists. Let's just get that on the tape. Josh Rock: Toby still exists... Now Toby exists now he's all on the jobs data side, the labor force market data, and that's what they do. That's what Toby does now. Joel: Yeah. He's blogging kind of now. Josh Rock: He's blogging now. Yeah. Yeah. He's still finding his way. Toby's a great guy. He just, he is evolving. Joel: I love Toby. Josh Rock: Yeah. Joel: I talked to him once in the aughts. And then I mysteriously got a bottle of Irish whiskey and Sasquatch shirt [laughter] about four years ago. [laughter] And that's all I know of Toby Dayton. Josh Rock: He's just showing you that he is still around. [laughter] Joel: And now that, now with VR, he will live forever. Josh Rock: Yes. Yes. Joel: In some form or fashion. Josh Rock: I haven't seen him in forever. It's crazy. Joel: Is it true that he is part of the Target family and he is like super rich and just does this job thing for fun? Josh Rock: No, I don't think, he may be, I don't know if that lore is exactly accurate but he is related to the Dayton family. I think the former governor of the great state of Minnesota, Mark Dayton is a like uncle or something to him. But yeah. Yeah, there's some lineage there. Joel: Yeah. And another one of our favorite Minnesotans, Steven Rothberg. Josh Rock: Oh. Joel: You've worked with. Josh Rock: The Gopher. The Gopher fan. That is Steven Rothberg, who will not end talking about hockey in Canada. Because he is from Winnipeg [laughter] Joel: Is he a Jets fan? Josh Rock: Yeah, I think he is a Jets fan. I can't confirm or deny that fact, but he will always hold or linger Canada hockey over anything else. Joel: So as you look at the industry now. Josh Rock: Yeah. Joel: And what you came into, is it night and day or is it the more things change, the more they stay the same? Josh Rock: No. It's completely different. I mean, granted you're still gonna have vendors trying to find, I mean, we're here at SHRM '23 where there's three football fields of vendors trying to get the attention of non-buyers. Joel: Some have crazy podcasters. Josh Rock: Some have crazy podcast podcasters. Joel: To try to get attention. Josh Rock: I've seen a few of you around here. Joel: Yeah. Josh Rock: You and Tin Cup and Sherry over at the other company over here and. Yeah. There's a bunch of you guys. But it's still the same thing where oftentimes the vendors are selling to non-buyers and they don't know how to get garner the attention. And so when I was on that side, I always tried to make the buyer the angel. What is their problem? Give them the solution to sell whoever that needed to sign the check and make them look good. It had nothing to do with my product or what I was offering or the solution. It was making them look good because then they were in long term. Joel: Yeah. Josh Rock: And some of these guys, they're just looking for the quick transaction that doesn't work anymore. So there is a bit of a change. And granted we don't see the job boards like we used to. There's no Trump the monster mascot here anymore. Joel: Not after the legal issues with Donald Trump. Josh Rock: Yes. Joel: Trumpsters no more. Josh Rock: Yeah. Trumpsters no more. Joel: We both remember that. Josh Rock: I mean. Indeed's here, there's no ZipRecruiter. Joel: Kind of. Josh Rock: Well, they got a big booth. I don't know what they're doing. Joel: Well the banner that hangs from the roof. Josh Rock: Yeah. Joel: Looks like they printed it out on their HP printer. Josh Rock: That's okay. Joel: At the office somewhere. Josh Rock: I mean, they took the canon out this morning and printed a new one because. Joel: I'm only jealous of Indeed. That's why. Josh Rock: That's fine. You can be jealous. Joel: Our podcast is better than theirs though. Josh Rock: Well, when we talk about your podcast, let's go back to the intro where you're talking about punching HR in the throat. Joel: Yep. Josh Rock: Coming from a hockey guy. Drop the fricking mitts, [laughter] I mean we got game five here tomorrow night. Joel: We do. Josh Rock: Vegas versus Florida. I may still go. Joel: City could burn tomorrow. Josh Rock: No, they're a positive rider here. Joel: Yeah. Josh Rock: They're fun. They're not Golfers winning the national championship and starting car fires after turning over cars. Joel: The couches will be safe in Vegas tomorrow if they win the cup, which they just won it, so. Josh Rock: Yeah. Yeah. Joel: There's just, it's just another day in Vegas where a pro team that just moved in wins another title. Josh Rock: I actually have a photo from my JobDig days where a bunch of University of Minnesota students had one of our newspaper boxes lifted up and were throwing it into a fire during a national championship ride. Joel: Can you explain newspaper box for the kids that are listening? [laughter], Josh Rock: There's this thing called print ads [laughter], where you each week call your account representative and change the content and put it in tree turned paper that they colored and distributed to mass locations. Joel: Yes. And change the content means the date. [laughter] Josh Rock: The date... They may have reorganized the position listings from... Every nursing position in your organization maybe put the admin person first. Who knows? Joel: There you go. There you go. Josh Rock: Yeah. Good times. Joel: Damn world. Josh Rock: Black and white. Sell it by the inch. Joel: Okay. So things have definitely changed. Josh Rock: Definitely. Joel: And now you're on the buying side of the equation. What got you to take the leap into the light? Josh Rock: Well, funny thing 'cause we're still talking about it to this day. It's a thing called layoffs. I was laid off and there wasn't companies in the northern region of Minnesota that did what we did. And so I went to teach my customers what I was doing as a... Or not as a vendor but as a practitioner. Joel: Yep. Josh Rock: And I'm still doing it. So it's fun. I enjoy it. I love when these new sales people from these companies that are here and others call me up and they're like, "Yeah, I wanna sell you this." I'm like, "You haven't even asked what my problem is? What I'm experiencing as a TA leader." Joel: Yeah. So, let's start there. So a lot of vendors listen to our show. They're doing that same thing. Give them some tips on how to approach a buyer. Josh Rock: First thing, stop it. [laughter] Josh Rock: I laugh because one, before you call a potential buyer case amount, go to their career page, find out what they're posted, what they've got posted. If you're calling for TA guy like me. Go to their LinkedIn, find out what they're about, find some connectivity between you and the buyer. Whether it's Twitter, finding out they're a sports fan, or they like food. Find some commonality between, but then when you open up the conversation, say, "Hey, you know what, here's who I am. Here's who I represent. I wanna know more about what your problem is today. What are you experiencing?" And then paint a vision about what your service will solve. But don't put it on you like you're God's gift. Say, "Hey, I wanna make your job easier and be a partner. Not just a vendor." Those are the ones that win when those people call me. They're the ones that get my time. Joel: The ones who say, "I heard you on The Chad and Cheese podcast." Josh Rock: Exactly. Joel: Are definitely getting a blank check from you, is what you're saying. Josh Rock: Yes. Yes, yes. They're getting... They will get my time, attention. Maybe escalate to my leader for a potential conversation and a check. Joel: There you go. How many calls a day do you get on average? Josh Rock: I don't get calls. I get emails. Joel: Emails. Josh Rock: I get emails saying, "Hey, come do our demo." You don't even know what I need, but yeah yet you want me to join your demo. Waste my time for you to pitch your product when, you don't know what I need. Joel: So is it safe to say if you actually got a call, it would knock you out of your seat, because somebody actually did the work to dial the phone. Josh Rock: Yeah, when those people call me, I will take the call. I will usually chew them up just a little bit. Joel: Sure. Josh Rock: Just saying, "So how long you been there? Tell me more about what you do. What's your product? Why should I buy from you and not your competitor? Whatever, X, Y, Z." And make the sales person actually work for it. And then I'll usually let them know. I'm like, "Hey, did you look at my LinkedIn profile before you called me? 'Cause you know, I was you before you were you." Joel: Yeah. [laughter] Josh Rock: I just make them stew just a little bit. You gotta have a little bit of pain. 'Cause trust me, I'm going through pain when leaders are calling me asking why they don't have candidates for decent mechanics or what have you. But I wanna find a partner, somebody who's in the trenches with me, not just sitting behind a screen. Joel: Yeah. Of the vendors here, who has impressed you? Who's an actual piece of shit? [laughter] Joel: Let's get down to the nitty gritty. Josh Rock: You know, one who... Or who I'll just give it away. The vendor who impresses me Motivosity. Joel: Motivosity? Josh Rock: Yeah. Joel: I don't even know who they are? What do they do? Josh Rock: They do rewards... Joel: They motivate you... Josh Rock: They do rewards and recognitions. Joel: Oh, that makes sense. Josh Rock: Yeah. Joel: And what's different from what they do that impresses you? Josh Rock: So for one, their corporate culture for one. First thing, they're based out of Utah. They... Joel: Why are they all based out of Utah? Josh Rock: I don't know. Joel: That's weird. Josh Rock: I don't get it. I don't think there's any companies here that are based out of Minneapolis that I found anyway. But they don't work Sundays. So you come to National SHRM. With 23,000 practitioners in the room. And the expo starts on Sunday and you have nobody in your booth. That's saying something. You spent tens of thousands of dollars to be here and you don't staff your booth on a Sunday because your culture is that set. Joel: Was there something in the booth that said, "Sorry, we're not here. We take Sundays off for religious reasons." Josh Rock: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. There's a big sign in front of their booth. But moreover, I knew their... I know their platform. I've seen it. I've demoed it. Their salesperson calls me. Her name's Kennedy. She's fantastic. But I'm like, "I wanna know what you've brought forth new that I haven't seen in the last year." Joel: Yeah. Josh Rock: So get your senior sales leader and let's talk about it. And so I can't give away what's coming from them, but in my eyes, as a practitioner and somebody who's in a somewhat retail space, it's a game changer. Joel: Yeah. Josh Rock: I'm super excited about what they're gonna do and how it can impact my service lines and my people. Joel: Who else has impressed you? If anybody? Josh Rock: I stumbled across this company that I think you might know Aaron. Joel: Oh, stop. Josh Rock: Yeah. Joel: What a coincidence. [laughter] Josh Rock: I mean, what a coincidence. One I walked by actually yesterday and their staff actually engaged me and said, "Hey Josh, I see you have influencer on your tag. Tell me more about what does influencer mean at SHRM 23?" Joel: Oh, okay. Josh Rock: I'm like, they wanna know more. They don't wanna just sell me. They wanna know more. So what we talked about earlier about doing it right, they did it right. They stopped me on the way through. Joel: And they have red Nikes on as well... Josh Rock: I'm actually kind of jealous of the red Nikes. I'm rocking the white Adidas. Joel: Of course you and I are old enough to remember the career builder Chuck Taylors. Back in the day. Josh Rock: Yes. I have orange Chucks. Joel: Orange Chucks. [laughter] Josh Rock: I have orange Chucks because JobDig was orange. Joel: That's your answer to why are you an influencer. I have Orange Chuck Taylors. Josh Rock: Yeah. Joel: Any other companies though that have impressed you? Josh Rock: Let me think. Joel: That says a mouthful. [chuckle] Josh Rock: Yeah. I see a lot of the same stuff, unfortunately. Nobody has really wowed me. I mean, I go from HR tech and seeing the triple wide booth of Paradox to a single stall with very little signage. Joel: Yeah. Josh Rock: That's kind of telling. I see... Joel: What does that tell you? Josh Rock: They're not here to hit buyers. HR tech, they're there to hit buyers. This isn't their environment. Joel: They're here to say they were here. Josh Rock: They were here. Joel: Okay. Josh Rock: Yeah, yeah. So that's telling me something. I like Paradox. Great organization from what they do. Obviously, here we're seeing the spend differently than we saw in March at HR tech, or at UNLEASH, excuse me, and last fall at HR tech. The spends are different. We're seeing some maybe possible telltales on acquisitions. Joel: Okay. Josh Rock: Should be interesting to see... Joel: Okay. Say more about that. Any predictions? Josh Rock: I look at what Eightfold is spending and I'm wondering where they're gonna go. That's interesting. Yeah. And just being on the outside, not being on the vendor side anymore. Joel: Yeah. Josh Rock: Being on the buyer side. Joel: But you have that perspective. Josh Rock: Yeah. It's like... Joel: Like, you know what's coming. Josh Rock: I'm like, what's going on here? But seeing some of the new companies, I mean, seeing Siobhan from Reejig, she's fantastic. Joel: Yeah. Josh Rock: And what they're doing. They're not here. I would have loved love to see them here. Joel: Yeah. Josh Rock: But we'll see them in Paris at UNLEASH World and HR Tech. But yeah, no, it's the money that's been spent in this vertical. Now we're in a cycle of non-buying. What's gonna happen? It's kind of fun. And... Joel: And you're not talking about Nuss. Josh Rock: No. Joel: You're talking about everything that you see. Josh Rock: Yeah. On the vendor side. Joel: Do you... Is the term nuclear winter too strong? [laughter] Josh Rock: It might be close. Joel: I'm very serious about that. Josh Rock: Yeah. It might be close. Joel: Really? Josh Rock: Yeah. HR Tech for me last year was a telltale of who's spending and who's trying to make it an image to who's going to gonna be acquiring or be acquired. Joel: Yeah. Josh Rock: And here it's different, which is kind of fun. I get to see the different side of the perspective. Some companies are trying really hard. Some aren't trying very much. Joel: Yeah. Josh Rock: But everybody's struggling at getting buyers. Joel: Yeah. Josh Rock: I'm hearing it everywhere. We're seeing more layoffs. Joel: Yeah. Josh Rock: We're seeing people are switching. We're seeing the churn from vendor to vendor to vendor. And the tough part is, as a practitioner, I don't know who's gonna support me. The guy that I had managing my account at XYZ Provider has is now gone to somebody else. Now I got somebody else who I have to teach. That sucks. I mean, I may come from the Cal Ripken era of Longevity and staying with one organization forever, but now we don't. Now we just see people moving to companies or spinning off their own. Their new tech startups. Yeah. It's kind of fun. Joel: Keeping your buyers educated on how the product works is a challenge for companies. Any dog shit you see here in the exhibit hall? Josh Rock: I don't see dog shit besides some of the pet insurance companies, because maybe they have some dogs at their booth site. I feel bad for the people on the ends, the people back by the meals who spent a lot of money to invest, and they're not getting any traffic. Joel: Yeah. Josh Rock: I feel bad for those guys. I feel bad for their sales reps who are trying really hard and want that great experience of being here and get impact, and they're not getting any. Joel: And then you have the big company like Kroger. Josh Rock: Yeah. Joel: Who just has someone that's manning the booth, I guess. Josh Rock: Kroger is here... The grocery store? Joel: Kroger is here, yes. Josh Rock: What? Are they handing out bread? Joel: They have one of those... Josh Rock: Ramen noodles? Joel: By the bathroom, next to the bathroom. Josh Rock: Oh, really? Joel: Yeah. Josh Rock: Maybe I'll go back and get a thing or ramen noodles on the way. Joel: Plug for Kroger, everybody. Plug for Kroger. I want to wanna talk about job postings. Josh Rock: Yeah. Joel: Because Indeed is here. You mentioned, geez, they might be the only job board of significance that's here. Oh, Talon is here, talon.com. Josh Rock: Yeah. Joel: How do you see that? Josh Rock: Acquire is here. Joel: Who's here? Josh Rock: Acquire. Joel: Acquire? Josh Rock: Yeah. Joel: Okay. How do you see that space? Google for Jobs, obviously. What is that? He rolls his eyes. So we'll get to that. Josh Rock: There was a great nonverbal there. Joel: But you know, Programmatic, Indeed. Like it's not just post on whatever and hope for the best. Josh Rock: Yeah. Joel: How do you see the job posting business? Josh Rock: I mean we're seeing, obviously, aggregation. Everybody is doing Programmatic, geo-targeting, geo-fencing. Some people say they do it, and some of them really suck at it. Joel: Yeah. Josh Rock: They are just... Joel: Who sucks at it? Josh Rock: My local radio stations and TV partners that say they do it, and they don't know what I do and why I should be doing it, I have to tell them who I want to geo-fence and/or target around. They don't know it enough. They're just saying, hey, we do this. Great. Everybody can do this. I want people who do it well and position me the right way. Joel: Okay. Josh Rock: Those are the ones I watch out for. For us, on the blue collar sector, I don't care if you're gonna post me all over LinkedIn. Because guess what? Diesel mechanics aren't on LinkedIn. Joel: Right. Josh Rock: Shocking. I wanna put them on Programmatic, where I can geo-fence my competitor and inundate the living daylights out of it, so whenever they go onto their phones to look up a parts manual for working on a Peterbilt, which is our competitor, they see my stuff and they wanna come work for me instead. Joel: Yeah. Josh Rock: That's fine, but I still got to do some of that stuff. I still got to do the Indeeds and at least have a presence, but I'm not gonna spend a ton. Joel: Yeah. How does social media play into your recruiting efforts? Josh Rock: I love social media. I'm all over it. Joel: Say more about that. Josh Rock: We do a short apply. We do pre-forms on... Or on Facebook, where candidates can just put their phone number and all that. While it's a lot of extra riffraff for me, I don't know what I don't know. I call them up genuinely interested of who they are, where they wanna work, what kind of career they want, because even though they may say they wanna be a diesel mechanic, they don't have the qualifications or the skill set to do it, I can pivot them into a couple of different roles, then through our tuition reimbursement program that we offer, get them schooled in diesel. Joel: Yeah. Josh Rock: So they can become a mechanic and give them a complete different career trajectory. Joel: So is your strategy more, there's a job, learn more today, as opposed to we're gonna karaoke and dance on social media to get your attention? Josh Rock: Yeah. I'm gonna profile my people. I'm gonna show actual people who work in my organization and say, hey, if you wanna do what these people do, call me. Joel: Yeah. Josh Rock: Let's talk about it. Joel: What's your take on the future of sourcing? My take is that LinkedIn has sort of won. Josh Rock: Yeah. Joel: The HiringSolveds, the HighQs, the people that have sort of done this, they've either pivoted or gone out of business. But I wanna hear your take on sourcing versus you mentioned social media and then job posting. Where does sourcing fit in? Josh Rock: You know coming from healthcare prior to being at Nuss, and I was doing sourcing before that organization even knew what sourcing really was. Joel: Yeah. Josh Rock: They didn't have anybody doing it. I did full cycle. I would post my stuff out there. I'd go out there and look on state board lists for nurses and pharmacy techs and you name it. Nobody had done that at the organization. Joel: Yeah. Josh Rock: And so it was crazy for them. They weren't even doing video interviewing for that matter, which was crazy. Now we all do it for pandemic. We've all had to. But sourcing is still important. We can still use great tools and technology to bring candidates out and find them where we don't know that there are. You know these people as well as I do. Shannon Pritchett from hireEZ. Shannon's a good friend of mine. Joel: Lovely person. Josh Rock: Yeah, she's fantastic. But their technology bridges some of those gaps so I don't have to have all the tools. Joel: Yeah. Josh Rock: She can help... Their tool can help me build a string and make that easier. Joel: Talking about tools, Jobcase has built itself as LinkedIn for everyone who's not on LinkedIn. It sounds like that's the kind of people that you're looking for. Josh Rock: Yeah. Joel: Has Jobcase been a tool, effective tool for you? Josh Rock: I haven't gone to it yet. Joel: Because? Josh Rock: Just haven't done it. Joel: Okay. Josh Rock: Not... It's just not that I have anything against it. I just haven't done it. I go more boots on the streets. I visit probably 30 different schools a year. Joel: Yeah. Josh Rock: And I go right to the schools. I'm on the advisory board of just about every single one of them. Telling them what makes candidates successful, talent successful in our organization later on. Giving them the buying signals of what it takes to get a career with us. And then visiting them often and cultivating relationships. People want to come from El Paso, Texas, Jacksonville, Florida, Lima, Ohio. Joel: Yeah. Josh Rock: To somewhere in Minnesota. Joel: Importance of SMS to your recruiting. Josh Rock: I love SMS. I'm constantly texting people. I use, since we're talking vendors, I use Emissary. It's inexpensive. Now my current ATS provider, Dayforce Ceridian, is bringing out SMS. I haven't used it yet, because it's just coming out. It's supposed to be out third, fourth quarter. Who knows, they may delay it. It'll come out next year. That's kind of how it works. But they're doing on a per text basis cost, which kind of baffles me. $0.07 a text. I'd rather go subscription and not have to worry about what my bill could be at the end of the month. Joel: Yeah. That's a nice margin, though. [laughter] Josh Rock: It could be. Depends on who the backbone is for their... If it's directly in them, or if they're using a partner, which I believe they are, some of that revenue could go to the partner. And so that's why they do it. So I've advised them to maybe go to a subscription model. We'll see what they do. Joel: Their partner is probably Twilio. But any way. [laughter] Josh Rock: Probably. Joel: Let's go to AI. Few companies here, not a ton. I thought there would be more ChatGPT, obviously. Writing jobs, letters to candidates. Josh Rock: Cover letters, resumes. Joel: Companies that do that. Companies here being disrupted. Give us your take on AI and the industry. Josh Rock: You know, AI is obviously bigger in other areas. I'm gonna see it more in technology, maybe in corporate America positions. I'm not likely gonna see it in diesel. I'm not likely gonna see it in health care, at least practitioner side. Nurses and stuff, they don't need to. They're board licensed. They don't need ChatGPT to write a resume for them. They can talk about what their patient acuity is, their patient volumes. And that's what's gonna sell. Not because ChatGPT said, I took care of this many patients and these procedures. So yeah, it's gonna be, it's already there. We're already seeing it in cover letters. We're seeing BS and... Joel: Do you care as a recruiter if a cover letter was written by AI? Josh Rock: Do I read cover letters? Joel: Okay let's go there. [laughter] Josh Rock: That's an assumption. I don't read cover letters because you know what? You don't need to sell me. Your resume is gonna speak volumes to what you've done and how it's relatable to the position I have. I'm not gonna waste time. I mean, we know this, that the average recruiter makes a decision on a candidate in six to 30 seconds. No one's gonna read a cover letter? The hiring manager will read the cover letter. I'm not gonna read a cover letter. I just wanna know why are you relevant to the position and how are you gonna make the team better tomorrow than we are today? That's what the resume does. The cover letter is just added fluff to a hiring manager. Joel: Yeah. Talking about relevancy, we hear a lot about VR in terms of training and it sounds like something that you are on it. Josh Rock: It's big in our space. Joel: So yeah, so talk about VR, whether it's recruiting, training, upskilling, et cetera. Josh Rock: So in the diesel industry, VR is definitely used a lot for training on how to find issues in a truck. A technician can put on a set and look through from the outside directly into a small component of an engine and find out how do I either A, diagnose the issue or repair the issue if I haven't done that procedure already. A lot of the schools, shout out to my friends at Western Tech, they're doing that right now with their students. Their students actually get trained both in the classroom, hands-on and VR on how to repair those 18 wheelers that we're seeing delivering our toilet paper to Target. And so it's great for them to see if they can't get hands-on because they may or may not have the equipment on site, how to do it virtually so they can know how to navigate to get to the issue. One, expediting the repair, but then two, doing it in a quality performance that makes the customer happy and gets the product out faster. Joel: Have you ever had Mountain Dew with a light beer? Josh Rock: You know what? I saw some dude on TikTok or whatever doing Mountain Dew with beer. I don't know. I see some of that crazy mixology stuff. Joel: All the kids are doing it. You can be an alcoholic and a diabetic in the same activity. Josh Rock: I thought that's what Jagerbombs were for. Red Bull and Jägermeister. Joel: Speaking of, it's almost closing time at the conference. So we better wrap this up. That is Josh Rock, everybody. May or may not be a porn star [laughter] name. Josh Rock: It could be. It could be. My radio is where it really took off, but we'll leave that for another story. Joel: Josh Rock. Josh, for any of our listeners that wanna connect with you or know more about your company, where would you send them? Josh Rock: So for me, you can find me on LinkedIn, obviously, usually using Josh Rock. I'm easy to find. But in Twitter Josh E Rock. You may look for the old JRock96. That's the old handle that got hacked. You might find it as crypto nerd now, unfortunately. [laughter] I'm still trying to get that back. Fricking Elon Musk. But for Nuss, you can find us at nussgrp.com. A Mack and Volvo dealer group in Minneapolis. Eight locations, 400 employees. Joel: Thanks for sitting down, man. I am Joel Cheeseman of the Chad and Cheese Podcast broadcasting from the Aaron booth at SHRM National in Las Vegas. And that is another one in the can. We out. Peace. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell. Enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey. Or just watch big booty Latinas send and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt. But save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

This week was all over the map. After less than a year on the job, iCIMS' CEO is stepping down in a rather unexpected way, the EEOC settled its first AI-based hiring discrimination case, Recruiter.com sold some IP to Job Mobz (who?), college degrees lose more luster, tech jobs remain strong after layoffs from Big Tech throughout 2023 and chatbots continue to have their fans, as well as their detractors. Oh, and robotaxis are invading San Francisco. The summer may be starting to wind down, but the recruiting news remains red hot! Enjoy, Like and Share! TRASNCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. [music] Joel: Oh, yeah. It's National Bad Poetry Day. There once was a man from Nantucket. I'll let you guys google the rest of that one. Are you listening? Yes. You are listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. This is your co-host, Joel Edgar Allen Cheesman. Chad: And this is Chad "The sugar rushes over" Sowash. Joel: And on this week's show, iCIMS CEO says, see ya. The EEOC chalks up a win against AI and college degrees. We don't need no stinking college degrees. Let's do this. What's up, man? Chad: What is up? Joel: That's your Buckeyes jersey on. Chad: Yes. I'm so excited. Joel: For those of you watching on YouTube can see that. Chad: That's right. Joel: If you haven't checked us out on YouTube, please do so. Chad: Come on. [chuckle] Joel: Youtube.com/@chadcheese. Chad: Yes. I'm pretty stoked. Couple of things though. I think right out of the gate you wanted to throw some love out to Maui in Hawaii. Joel: Yes. It would behoove us to mention the fires in Maui. My first marriage was in Maui, so there is a certain place in my heart for the island. But just the visuals and the stories are just horrible. Chad: Yeah. It's crazy. Joel: If you can, there are a lot of donation platforms and charities that are helping out Maui. If you can, go on the web search some causes that you're in favor of, and... Yes. Chad: Find a reputable charity and get some cash to them. Get some clothes to them, get to whatever you can. I think that's the key. Joel: Stay away from the scams on, I don't know, Twitter. [laughter] Chad: X. Joel: Don't go to an ad handle and give money. [laughter] Chad: Oh, Jesus Christ. Don't do that. Don't do that. Joel: So speaking of football... Chad: Yes. Joel: You're in your football jersey and football is right around the corner, but we have some Women's World Cup that's going down. We got Spain and England. Two traditional powerhouses. I'm assuming with your Portuguese heritage... [laughter] Joel: And real estate empire, that you're leaning Spain or is there a rivalry there that you hate Spain? I don't know. Chad: No, I, definitely, I love Spain. I go to La Liga games when I'm there, so, the Spanish women look great. The Brits are having some injury issues, as we said, in the green room. And I would love to see Spain win. That would be pretty great. Portuguese not too fond of the Spanish, but I think they would rather see Spain win than England. England is kind of the US, the Mini America over in Europe. So if anybody's hated the most in Europe, I'm gonna go ahead and say it's probably the UK. Joel: Okay. Followed by probably the Danes or somebody, the Swedes, I don't know. I don't know. Chad: [laughter] And you're gonna follow along because you've only been on the Brit train. Joel: Hey, 64% ancestry.com can't be wrong. I got to root for the lionesses. [laughter] Joel: Lioness. I don't know what the... Chad: I just want to see a great match. And there's been some pretty great matches, so can't wait. Joel: And Messi keeps tearing it up. That dude may officially bring soccer to the US. Chad: He's gonna prove you wrong. 'Cause you said there was no way that... Joel: No. Chad: Even Messi can bring... And and I think that like back in the Beckham days, there's kind of like been this nudge of soccer in the US where it's gotten more popular, it's gotten more popular, it's gotten more popular. And now we can watch Premier League all on TV where we couldn't back then. La Liga and even Bundesliga which I love watching all that. So, I think that it's a lot more popular. And then you got the goat. This guy is the greatest of all time. There's no fucking, and he just is. He's here in the US. He is lighting things up, and he is filling fucking stadiums. And that to me is just amazing. Joel: Yeah he is. You've seen Billy Madison, Adam Sandler when it, what is it? Dodgeball? Chad: Yeah. Joel: Or he's just destroying. [laughter] Joel: That's basically what it looks like. The friendlies that are played when Man U comes over, or Chelsea, I think that's cool. And apparently the demand is so high on Apple that there's rumors of Apple buying ESPN because there's so much appetite for the soccer that's on Apple TV. So anyway, that's... Chad: Amazing. Joel: That's rumors that that I'm hearing on CNBC. [laughter] SFX: Shout out. Joel: Let's get to some shout outs, shall we? We gotta a lot of content to cover on this week's show. So I'm gonna give a shout out to Robotaxis in California. If you haven't heard, California regulators have voted in favor of Robotaxi operators expanding their paid driverless services in the city of San Francisco, a major milestone toward commercializing the technology. You can guess what happened next, Chad? Just one day after the vote, driverless vehicles brought traffic in parts of San Francisco to a standstill. A group of around 10 Robotaxis stopped in the middle of a city street for about 15 minutes with their hazard lights on, while cars, with human drivers were stuck behind and between driverless ones with no option but to wait until the situation resolved. Robotaxi company crews blame the issue on "wireless bandwidth constraints" due to a nearby music festival. So things are off to a great start. Shout out to Robotaxis in beautiful San Francisco. Chad: Oh, love that. Oof. My first shout out's gonna be somewhat of a rant. Okay? Joel: Okay. I like these. It's been a while. It's been a while. Get it out, baby. Chad: It has, it has. Shout out to all the people saying the market is down and tightening up. Okay. So, we've both heard this, we've heard this. We've heard it on TV shows, on podcasts, even on fucking calls that we've both been on. Okay. Kids listen up. The market was fucking flooded with ridiculous amounts of cash for years, and that was not normal. We saw an amazing amount of startups created. Yes. Unicorns fed with mountains of cash. Yes. Tams exploded. Vaporware narratives grew all across this fine land, that wasn't normal. What we're feeling today, this is normal. And because of that sugar rush as we predicted for years on this very show... Chad: We're gonna see consolidations, dead unicorns, and a vast amount of startups that were just gonna quickly fade away. But this is great news, that companies who aren't solving real problems are just vaporware or overhyped platforms and horrible go-to-markets that we've seen left and right. Well, they won't be around long because only the incredibly well-disciplined are going to survive. So, the market has been noisy and crowded, but on the positive side, we're gonna get a much better market full of products that are more honed, more focused, and just better for the end user. So, shout out to all of those startups out there who are honing those skills and they're not spending cash like drunken sailors. Joel: And we will continue with the fun-filled layoff reports every week when the shit hits the fan. [laughter] SFX: Hasn't anyone noticed this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills! Chad: There'll be fade away reports, much like JUNECO. They're still not back. Joel: Fade away acquisition. Yeah. Chad: Juneco.co, yeah, Jesus! Joel: Okay, Chad, sometimes you wanna just get in that DeLorean and go back to the future and make new decisions or different choices... Chad: Really? Joel: From days in the past. And if we could go back to 2005 in our own industry, Chad, I bet Monster and Crew Builder might've thought twice about letting their content go freely to Indeed for that heroin drip of traffic. [laughter] Joel: Well, fast forward to today, we see where Indeed is, now we see where Monster and Career Builder are. Chad: Exactly. Yes. Joel: The media, and particularly journalism, is in a similar situation. Back in the same timeframe, they had Google sharing their stuff freely on Google. Well, Google made buckets of cash. New York Times, Washington Post, LA Times, etcetera, faded into the... Chad: Abyss. [laughter] Joel: Afterglow of big profits. Yes, well, apparently they've learned their lesson, Chad. My shout out goes out to the New York Times. This week it was reported that they are basically blocking AI. So, open AI companies that are using their content to build large language models, well, that's a threat to New York Times. Hopefully they've learned their lesson, they've blocked their content from those services. I'm sure they would give it up for a fee though, Chad, and I'm sure it's a fee that Google's barred, or Microsoft, who's an investor in open AI, would freely write some cheques to get access to the New York Times content. Shout out to them. And if you're a New York Times shareholder, that's probably good news too in the long run. Shout out to the New York Times. Chad: Yes, and if you haven't heard of Google's Gemini project, that is beyond barred. So, go check that out. And that project won't be getting New York Times as well. Chad: What's it called again? Chad: Gemini. [laughter] Chad: Which you and I are both Geminis. Joel: From both Geminis, yes, we should know, we should know. Chad: So, I created an office hours session on my calendar a couple of years ago, so that startups who reach out looking for advice could get 30 minutes with me. So, I dedicated about five hours a week to those sessions. And in the last three months, requests have gone crazy. They've exploded on my calendar. So, I wanted to give a shout out to all the eager startups out there who are digging in, they're hyper-focused, they're looking for advice, they're looking for answers. If it takes a few weeks for me to get back with you, my apologies, but I will get back with you. Or in the meantime, soak up these weekly episodes, kids. SFX: All right, all right, all right. Joel: How am I just now hearing about your open office hours? Like, can you sign up at chadcheese.com? Do I need to DM you, like what? Chad: I didn't make it something that was public as of yet, because I had so many startups just naturally coming to me. LinkedIn, Twitter, I mean, wherever they could find me, they would message me. And I automatically had just a link set up to office hours. And it would be nice and easy. So, it gave me an opportunity to meet some of the new startups that are out there, get some ideas of what was going on, those types of things, and give them at least a little nugget of advice before they came on firing squad, possibly, and got shot to shit. Joel: Okay. And this is free of charge to them? Chad: Yeah. Joel: All right, well, if you were flooded before... [laughter] Joel: We've just talked about it on the show. I'm sure the calls will stop after we talk about this one. All right, let's get free shirt. Chad: Yes. Joel: Which also is free of charge here on the show, thanks to our generous sponsors. If you haven't signed up, you gotta go to chadcheese.com. Our listeners know this. Click the free link, give us your information. We're talking free T-shirts, really soft plush, top 100% grade T-shirts, yeah. Chad: Tri-blend, yeah. Joel: Tri-blend, yeah, really nice T-shirts from our friends at JobGet. We've got Bourbon. Chad and I each select a Bourbon of choice and we send it to you. That's from our friends at Texkernel. The winner of this month for whiskey goes to Cody Nelson. We've got beer from our friends at Aspen Tech Labs. Listener Eddie O'Neill is enjoying some free beer on us this month. Chad: Nice. Joel: And Rum has partnered with us. They want to send a birthday each month, a very nice bottle of Rum. Rum with plum. Get it, Chad? Chad: I get it. That is nice. Awesome. Joel: That's what we do here. We market shit on the show, Chad. [laughter] Joel: But you can't win if you don't play the game. And you gotta go to chadcheese.com. Click that free link and give us your information for a chance at all these wonderful goodies. Chad: And did you see Chris Cleland gave us a shout out on LinkedIn after taking the plum assessment. 'Cause we always throw out there, if you haven't had your plum assessment, it's free. It's kinda cool. Gives you a little insights on yourself. Apparently he got his plum assessment and he says it was spot on. So all you have to do is go to plum.io. Check that bad boy out. Joel: There you go. You mentioned plum. Plum is... We'll get to travel. I don't know if you want to jump to that yet. Oh, the shaker hat's coming on. Again, our YouTube viewers know about this. All right. Let's start breaking down our travels coming up, Chad. Chad: Oh, kids. We are four weeks out from Wreckfest. I'm starting to get the shivers right now. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Where the Chad and Cheese will be MCing the disrupt stage all day on day one at Bicentennial Park in Nashville, Tennessee with special guests Lynn and Tracy from the Talent Rebel cast and those crazy Canucks Serge and Shelly from the recruitment Lex Podcast. SFX: Hey, we're doing our movie don't Wreck our show you loser. [laughter] Chad: They're gonna wreck our show. I guarantee it. Joel: Yeah. They're gonna wreck our show. Chad: If you haven't been to Wreckfest before, Joel, what is Wreckfest like? Joel: Wreckfest, it's the first time in America. We know the show very well in England. I'm guessing the Brits are bringing the game that they have in Medworth to Nashville. We're talking circus tents, we're talking Ferris wheels. [laughter] Joel: I'm still lobbying for the mechanical bull. Chad: No, they're having a mechanical bull. Joel: Oh. Okay. All right. Chad: Yes. Joel: See, this is a conference that listens to the fans. Chad: They do, they do. Yeah. Joel: And they listen and they follow through. So, mechanical bulls, tents, great food, I'm assuming some food trucks will be there with some great, oh, Nashville hot chicken, I'm hoping, I'm hoping, Chad, Nashville hot chicken, some barbecue, I'm sure, good, good stuff. But, Chad, every good party needs a damn good pre-party. Is there one in town? Have you heard? Chad: So, the Chad and Cheese want to ensure that Wreckfest starts out with a bang, a bang bang, if you will. [music] SFX: Bang bang! On the score, David! Bang bang! You're what? Tin roof! Rusted! Joel: Nice. What's that about? Chad: Most people don't even know what that tin roof rusted means. You should look it up. Joel: Without the kids. Chad: Anyway on September 12th from 7:00-9:00 we're gonna be at the Tin Roof a bar right on Broadway that's where everything happens kids. Where 50 lucky listeners that's five zero lucky listeners... Joel: That's exclusive. Chad: Will get to enjoy free drinks, free food, Nashville music and a little up close and personal time with the Chad and Cheese. None of these... SFX: All right, all right, all right. Chad: None of these kids would be possible without our friends over at Aaron app and plum.io. Joel: Yes. Yes. Chad: Are you feeling the pre-FOMO yet? Joel: I am feeling, I'm feeling it. [laughter] Joel: And I... Chad, the rumor is Nashville hot chicken lollipops. Oh my god. [laughter] Joel: Oh my god, are you kidding me? Can you say... Chad: Chicken on a stick. Intro: Can you say careless whisper to my belly Chad? [laughter] [music] Joel: Nashville Hot Chicken Lollipops. And we're not talking about just beer and wine Chad. Chad: No, what? Joel: No no, no that's that's not how we roll baby. We're talking whiskey. We're talking bourbon, whiskey. Chad: Top Scotch baby. Joel: Scotch, Irish. [laughter] Joel: Yeah, Buffalo trace like Everything you're gonna be happy at this party Chad. It's not even live yet If you're listening and you're a big fan, you're gonna be in Nashville. Hit Chad and I up on the DMs. We'll see if we can fit you in on that Evite. Chad: No promises. Joel: Evite list, and get you in this party. But it's gonna be a awesome time on Broadway. Just the right start to the party just to get your beak wet. Chad: Yes. Joel: Get your beak wet. Get your mind right. And, it's gonna be a hell of a time. And like Chad said, great sponsors with Aaron and Plum footing the bill for the good time. Chad: Yes. SFX: Woo. Really. It's birthday time. Can you feel the tension in the air right now. [laughter] I know I can. I can feel it all the way down in my plums. Joel: Talk of Plum, man, I can't stay away from the soundbites. Chad: Gotta do it. You gotta do it. Joel: So another trip around the sun for some of our listeners, that includes Sean Kelleher, Brian Thompson, who you might remember. We met couple Canadians. Chad: Oh yeah, Rectxt. Joel: The last time we were both in Nashville and we had some, see. Yep. Had some hot chicken. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Learned about Rectxt and, met a couple crazy Canadians Brad and Brian happy birthday to Brian Thompson also Marley Huckabee, Pete Cucci, Alex Campo, Julie Personius, Brittany Kaiser, Chris long, Stephen Fogarty, Richard Cho and Jerry the Godfather Crispin. SFX: Happy birthday. Joel: All celebrating another trip around the sun. Chad: Sean Kelleher and I actually, we're together 18 year olds down in Panama together. We were in the Army together back in the day. Joel: That Sean? Chad: Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. Big shout out to Sean. Happy birthday buddy. Joel: Okay. I love it. So you have a football jersey on, I got my FactoryFix t-shirt on Chad. We gotta talk about fantasy football. One of my favorite things each year. Chad: Yes. Joel: We get 12 guys together. We play fantasy football. Chad: Yes. Joel: Every week we're gonna do the power rankings. What do you call it in soccer? The something board. Chad: The league table? Joel: Yeah. The league table. We'll read the league table. Chad: The tables. Joel: Yeah. [laughter] The tables. But I can't wait. I love fantasy football. I love football. So, shout out to FactoryFix wearing my t-shirt. Chad: Yes. Joel: Maybe we can get some t-shirts for everyone in the league this year. Everyone that's signed up, stay tuned on that one. But always, always excited for a little fantasy football with my real football. Chad: Exactly. A couple of real quick events. We've got GEMS 2023 Virtual Talent Summit that's happening September 20th. And we're going to be at HR Tech Mandalay Bay, October. Joel and I are going to be in the Fuel50 booth. Two days. Joel: Yeah. Chad: Two days in a row, right? Probably you might be able to come over get some beer from us. I don't know. We gotta sneak it past the guards. Anyway, all of these wonderful events that we're going to go to Chadcheese.com/events or just go to Chadcheese.com, click events in the upper right-hand corner, and register baby. Love to see you there. [music] SFX: Topics. Joel: People are gonna hate us for this episode. All right. But we got some good blood in the streets for the first story everybody. All right. November of last year iCIMS announced Brian Provost would lead the company replacing CEO Steve Lucas who had been CEO since 2020 if my math is right that's less than a year. For the latest CEO Chad with no official announcement yet. Details are sparse. But Chad what's your take and what have you heard about this news out of iCIMS? Chad: I literally just received an official announcement and then we'll talk a little bit about kinda like the impact on this bad boy. So this is from iCIMS. Brian Provost has resigned from his position as CEO of iCIMS a decision that he made for personal reasons. A search is underway for a new CEO, who can help pave the way for our next phase of growth and innovation. There's a lot more but that pretty much contextualizes what happened. This was not designed kids. Right out of the gate, we had people pinging us saying, "Oh look what happened. They must be down. They kicked him out already." Literally, I think it was Monday morning or Monday or Tuesday morning. It was early this week. I got on the phone with Pr. This person was on vacation. She had no clue. And this is not how iCIMS works. This is not how Vista works. If something's happening and it's designed then there will be this smart rollout. This was not, they were shocked. They did not know what happened. So I don't know what's happening. Hopefully that Brian and his family are okay. Again hopefully everybody's okay. But this is not something that was designed. Joel: Yeah. We have some audio from the investor meeting following this announcement. SFX: No, God, please. No no no. SFX: So little backstory. ICIMS was owned by the same guy for a long time, got a big investment and they brought a new CEO and the idea was IPO just rolled this baby out. Then the pandemic happened and then inflation happened and the market shit dumped happened. So Lucas who was there for three years, guy was at Marketo, like had the marketing chops to kind of take this thing to the next level. He left last year. Brian came in, who had sold a previous company called Ascentis to UKG. And I had opined at the time... [laughter] Joel: And our prediction show said iCIMS will sell to UKG. 'Cause if you wanna sell, if you can't go IPO, sell the company to a big dog like UKG. And how what better way to do that than to have the guy that's already sold something to that company. Chad: Yeah. Joel: So. Chad: Yeah, connections. Joel: Personal health family well-being aside, that's a different story but as it is, how I see this is, Brian got in there they weren't gonna go IPO for probably one to two years. Didn't wanna wait around, talked to UKG, talked to some other buyers I'm sure and realize this is not happening and if I can't sell this thing, if I'm not cashing out an IPO then why stick around? And thus the exit. It is very odd that people were blindsided by this, that there wasn't a sort of lights runway someone to come in. As soon as he was out, it looks like the lights were on and no one was home. And there's push the panic button. But this is not good news for iCIMS. I'm sure we'll get more information as it trickles out but just on the surface, this looks bad for everybody. Chad: I don't think it happened the way that you think it did. I don't think he was looking at IPO, I don't think he was looking at sale and everything was souring. I don't think it had anything to do with that. Because if it did, as a professional which he is, he would've backed out, they would've had a designed rollout of him leaving. And they would've had somebody to backfill ASAP. So I think this is something that's, I don't wanna say a more akin to an emergency. But you don't have somebody pull out and eject from an organization like this. I mean that's just the most unprofessional thing to do in the world. But if it's family, which is much more important than business or it is your personal health, which is again more important than business then you hit that fucking eject button. Joel: Yeah. It definitely reeks of emergency, had no other choice. This was something I couldn't get get out of. So if that's the case our heart and thoughts go out to him and his family. Chad: Yeah. What does Vista do though? Joel: It's a rough spot to be in the industry and a lot of companies are going through this, I don't know no man's land of no IPO, no new money. What are we gonna do? No buyers and iCIMS I think is in that category but. Chad: So they go back to their portfolio of CEOs of all the companies that they've pushed money into and all the acquisitions that they've made or had made or what have you. Joel: They pick up the phone and they call our boy I'm on bra and say [laughter] "Can you come out of retirement baby? Come out to Edison New Jersey." And they will tell you, "all no. Maybe I'll maybe I'll take... " No I'll probably wouldn't wanna take up. Chad: I'll doesn't wanna do that now. Fuck that. Joel: Yeah. They have a stable of folks. [laughter] Chad: They do. They have a portfolio. I mean they're. Joel: Yeah. And they probably have an ATS full of potential CEOs. Who knows? [laughter] Joel: Who knows? They're using candid ID to comb keep the database for potential CEOs maybe. Yeah. Chad: Yeah, yeah. Joel: Crazy. All right. Let's get to our next story. Harvard Business Review, also known as the HBR. And our friends at Paradox, have conducted research on the impact of AI in recruiting. Their study found that 97% of those using automated technologies and hiring, reported positive outcomes including more effective hiring and reduced candidate drop-off. The report also highlighted that 91% of decision-makers believe AI and automation are crucial for long-term business success. Chad your take on this new study from our friends at Harvard and Paradox. Chad: Yeah. I believe this report is telling anyone with half a brain what they already know. Joel: Or people listening to our show anyway. Chad: Yeah. [laughter] Anybody who has half a brain kinda gets this. So here are my top three reasons why AI and automation and hiring are imminent. And it's actually backed by this report. Number one, humans can't scale fast enough to provide a great experience for candidates. So the black hole sucks. We know that, and it's damaging brands left and right. Number two, on the flip side, it's hard to retain great recruiters when they are saddled with mundane tasks like scheduling interviews. So this will help recruiter retention. And number three, the market is more fluid today than it ever has been. It's moving faster, ups and downs side to side. I mean it's all over the place. And we need systems that can reflect that and that can meet the ever-changing market instead of stagnant tech stacks which is exactly what we've had for years. Chad: So those are my three top reasons why this just makes sense. And I think everybody sees it coming, in the report 92% said that organizations need to invest more in talent acquisition to remain competitive. No shit. It's called talent acquisition. We need the talent to be competitive. If we don't have talent, then we're fucked. 46% cited screening and assessments as tech. They most want to improve in the hiring process. They should probably check out Plum.io followed by applicant communications at 39%. Funny thing here. Just 4%. Just 4%. [laughter] Chad: Said that their organization is currently very effective at hiring talent it needs. Yeah. No shit. Our industry is slow as fuck. And we have process methodologies that literally go back to pre-ATS, I mean we're talking about paper shit. I mean literally, they took papers and they went, put this electronically into our system right? I mean we're still that far behind. Joel: Yeah. 4% saying that their shit is innovative means there's 96% of the market that's ready to buy your product, which is which is great news for paradox. By the way, did you have a list? Did you have a list of things to say? Like you know what they say about your list though Chad? Chad: What? SFX: 60% of the time? It works every time. Chad: [laughter] Every time. Yeah. Joel: All right. So this study involved... Chad: That's good batting average by the way. Joel: 300. It's not bad. It's Hall of Fame numbers, but free throw percentage not so good. Their study involved 326 senior leaders. So these are the people who write the checks. The people that care about the metrics, care about engagement, care about the black hole, and getting rid of the black hole. And worried about engagement. So it would make sense that the people they asked would have such high numbers and percentages of favorability towards this. My question becomes let's ask what the franchise owner thinks. Let's ask what the candidate thinks. Those would be much more interesting numbers. 'Cause what we're seeing, and we will talk about this at the end of the show, there's a growing number of stories about misscheduling, miscommunication, tech breakdown, just perceptions being out of line with what reality is with job seekers and business owners. Joel: So we talked about this, we talked about the article I think out of Fortune or wherever like a lot of this is growing pains. A lot of this is like there'll be bumps in the road. But it would be interesting to see if they asked job seekers how they felt about the process. It might be great but we, I haven't seen anything that shows me all job seekers are 100% behind chatbots and talking to robots. 100% of all franchise owners are on board with this technology. That would be a different number I think than the 326 senior executives that they questioned on this survey. Chad: Asking job seekers anything is fucking worthless. Because first and foremost, they're doing it once in a while and they have really no idea on what the standard is. We know the standard shit. And those talent acquisition professionals do. Now franchise owners, I bet if you start asking them questions around trying to get people in, scheduling, those types of things, I bet they'd be on board. I'd be interested in that. But the job seeker side of the house, a lot of those surveys that I've that I see weekly, and we get flooded with on job seeker surveys, they're fucking ridiculous. And they're worthless. They are. It's like asking my sister about fucking nanotechnology. She'll give you what she thinks, but she has no fucking background or idea or standard to even understand it. [laughter] Joel: Chad let me remind you that we are a podcast of the people. [laughter] Joel: We listen to the people, Chad. Chad: And our people are the recruiters. Joel: It matters when one job seeker that's had a bad experience goes to TikTok and 100s of 1000s if not a million plus people see this, and drag your brand through the mud that matters. [overlapping conversation] Joel: It should matter to brand managers, it should matter to marketers. It should matter to recruiters and people in our business. So to say that job seekers don't matter, social media says they do matter, because people embrace this stuff and run with it and it can be very detrimental to your brand. Let me bring out Bud Light as an example of what social media can do to a brand. Chad: The Forbes article, I mean the hack job on the Forbes article that we talked about last week. Yeah. Joel: Yep. Yep. Let's move from Forbes, to Bloomberg Law. One of my favorite publications, Chad. [laughter] Joel: As you can guess. The EEOC settled its first AI-based hiring discrimination case. Let me repeat that. Its first discrimination case against iTutor Group, to the tune of $365,000. The company allegedly programmed its recruitment software to reject older applicants. The story didn't say what old was defined as, I guess you can use your imagination on that. However, the secrecy inherent to AI tools make it challenging for job seekers to even identify discrimination and report it to the EEOC in the first place. Employment attorneys say the agency is fighting an uphill battle as it typically relies on job seekers and employees to flag potential bias. Despite the EEOC's emphasis on addressing AI bias, there hasn't been any known litigation on the issue by the commission, aside from this case on iTutor Group settlement. Chad, what's your take on this uphill battle for the EEOC? Chad: Yeah, I mean that had nothing to do with AI, that had to do with stupid humans programming the system to do stupid shit. That's just dumb. That has nothing to do with AI, that has to do with stupid humans. One thing I thought was an interesting, quote from the article, "many AI tools which are becoming increasingly popular in HR departments are trained on historical data that can contain built-in biases." Was it a bad bias or a good bias? In this case, it wasn't a bias at all. It was a stupid decision. The Amazon example, was obviously a bad bias because it kicked out all females for tech roles. But you can also say that there are good bias, if that bias has created a diverse talent pool in the end product in the hiring process. Chad: So you've gotta remember when you start using AI and automation to scale, you're in effect handling more candidates because your ability to scale with AI and automation. The new ability to scale, also scales your bias. Meaning companies should see the bias good or bad much faster because the sample sizes are much larger. The key here for every single hiring company out there is auditing. Having an audit expert on staff or just a phone call away, having frequent and regular audits and engaging with the EEOC and OFCCP to just demonstrate that you're trying to actually work through with some of these different measures. I mean I've worked with major Fortune 500 companies from all over the world with the OFCCP on the OCCP side of the house, in building the National Labor Exchange. And many of the biggest brands in the world had great relationships with the government auditors. While some companies tried to hang in the shadows hoping they didn't get noticed, you're gonna get noticed. Which is why the smart companies have proactive outreach and proactive auditing. This is incredibly important. We're not gonna get by with the vendor did it or the algorithm went awry? Joel: So this is a good time to mention, we're doing a thing with Jim next week with EOC commissioner, Keith Sonderling. And I think this is a fascinating issue. I'm no lawyer. I only read Bloomberg Law when it comes up on my feed. [laughter] Joel: But this seems to me like a real nasty game of whack-a-ball. Historically yes, whistleblowers came to the EOC told them about what their companies were doing. Obviously, if more people came out, that raised the red flag that much more. If it's harder and harder for whistleblowers to know what the hell is going on, then does the flow of reporting decrease to the EOC? That's something I'd love to ask our friend Keith Sonderling. Is the EOC creating any technology around applying to jobs in a scaled fashion where they can do it quickly, to see like can we trip up a company's AI to discriminate against us whether it's birthday or where they graduated or something like their name. That would be interesting to know if the EOC is doing stuff like that because I think their ability to scale and find discrimination cases is gonna take technology and not just people reporting. Chad: Yeah. I think it's interesting because we've actually talked to some "experts" who have gone through and done, and actually did what you did. They applied for jobs. That's not how you do it because you can't scale that way. That's one, that's an anecdote. So what you do is you have the data and I've been through these audits before, the thing is you're gonna... The numbers are the numbers, whether those numbers are 10X or not it doesn't matter. You're still gonna have that pipeline and the continuing way that we're auditing today, we're going through audits today, they can continue because the audits are the same. It's just the point in which we're finding the bias, in which all the females are getting knocked out. That's part of the process. Chad: So yeah, they're not gonna be going through much like you described. That's anecdotal. They're gonna be going through the data and that's what they've done for years. They will continue to do that. They've got laws in the books that demonstrate that. So I don't see that as a problem. I see that as, for the EEOC, I see it as a problem for companies to be able to keep up with it. So they need to audit themselves more frequently to ensure that if they do have algorithms in place and they are all based on any type of behavior whatsoever, then they can start to have signals that are indicators that say, "Hey we need to check this out." Joel: I'm glad you said females knocked out and not knocked up. SFX: Just the tip. Joel: Let's take a quick break and talk some more news. All right, Chad. A company we never talk about but is a public company. [laughter] Joel: And we probably should talk about the more is in the news. Recruiter.com Group is selling intellectual property including the domain Recruiter.com to RPO company Job Mobz. The deal involves a 1.5 million cash payment at closing and additional 250,000 after 90 days and a 10% stake in Job Mobz for Recruiter.com shareholders. The two companies have agreed to share quarterly profits starting in Q1, 2024 and have entered a three-year services agreement with Recruiter.com Group managing online services like job boards, and their recruiter marketplace. Chad any thoughts on the Recruiter.com Job Mobz deal? Chad: Hey, the best thing about Recruiter.com is the domain. The rest of it just seems like the island of misfit toys. I know they've been around for a while. I couldn't tell you what they do. It's all over the place for me. So I mean I think I would use them almost as an example for many startups that are out there, is don't do business like that. 'Cause they're all over the place. And how can I not know what the fuck that company's doing? [chuckle] A company name Recruiter.com that's had acquisitions, to me it is one of the strangest animals that has been in our space for a very long time and I'm surprised they're still alive. Joel: So this is a public company, but don't get excited people. This is a 25 cent penny stock. It's up 25-some percent on this news, but it didn't have far to go, to get to 20%. This was a $30 stock not that long ago. But they've had reverse stock splits most recently as 2021. It's just a crappy business. There's neural, it's a weird ride of like acquisitions, restructuring, selling IP. They just sold their healthcare component to somebody. Miles Jennings, who is the, I think founder or CEO, I've known him for a long time. Nice guy. But you're right. Like for a show that covers this industry, we know very little if not anything about this company. Like their marketing sucks. They never reach out to us with news. I only knew about this news 'cause I went and looked up this news story and then found out all the crazy shit that they've been doing for the last five to seven years. Look, G2 for reviews is kind of the go-to. So I went to G2 to see the kind of reviews recruiter.com has. They have one fucking review, one review of someone that uses their services on G2. Chad: Did Miles do that review? Joel: It's anonymous. It's anonymous, who knows? Okay. Like via Glassdoor, they have an overall rating of three... About 3.1 out of five, based on 45 reviews left by employees. 54% of employees would only would recommend. So like half would recommend working there. 48% had a positive outlook for the company. So basically we're talking like Joe Biden territory for favorability with the employees. This is not a good look for a company. It's not really good signs for a prosperous growing company that you should invest in. And to me, this is just the wheels falling off and getting rid of the domain, which you said is probably the one thing that they have that's a value just does not bode well for the future of this company. I suspect they'll be delisted at some point from the public markets. But whether or not we'll know about it, who knows? 'cause they've never reached out before. Maybe we should add them to the newsfeed and see if anything comes over. Joel: But otherwise, this company is a big nothing burger for the most part. But we do like Miles. We do like Miles. All right, next story. Let's talk about tech, jobs and college degrees. LinkedIn research shows that job advertisements in the UK not requiring a college degree increased by 90% between 2021 and 2022. The trend towards skills-based hiring is exemplified by companies like Google, Microsoft, IBM, and Apple removing degree requirements to increase diversity in their talent pools. The emphasis on skills over degrees has raised concerns for recent graduates who are racking up record amounts of debt in the process. Chad, I know you have a few thoughts on college degrees and the need for one or not. Chad: Degrees for many jobs have long been a filtering mechanism for talent acquisition professionals. Hiring companies had too many candidates applying for jobs and they couldn't manage it. So instead of building more efficient tech stocks or processes, they would add a bachelor's degree or a master's degree to the job requirement to cut the amount of, "qualified candidates". So now, guess what kids, the pendulum swings the other way in hiring companies are falling flat on their face. To me, it just, none of this makes sense. It didn't make sense in the first place when we started to see this happen because we started to see college degrees going up and that was when the market was different and we had more job seekers than we had jobs. But when it swings back around the other way, which it has, you're fucking yourself. So instead of just fixing it, this is like a bandaid on a sunken chest wound. And that's what happens. Joel: So I'm old enough to remember the days where if you didn't have a college degree, just don't even fucking try or think about applying to most jobs, frankly that were out there. The world has changed significantly. We have online learning, we have gig economies, we have greater competition for employers to where they should relax the degree mandate on candidates. I think the diversity play was big in that 2020, '21, '22 timeframe. I think maybe they said they were doing that for that, but I think competition was such that they, if they didn't remove that, they would find it much harder to hire people. You can get degrees, you can get credentialed online, particularly for developing jobs. Engineering, cybersecurity for example. Like, you can get a basic degree certification for that and get a job, a well-paying job pretty quickly. Joel: So high school graduates are figuring out, well, I don't have to go to college. I can go for six months or a year and have a job at a pretty nice position as a cybersecurity professional or whatever. Your kids are out of the nest. I have kids that are entering late high school to college areas. And my advice to them is, I still think long-term that brands are important to have something where people are lazy. People like shorthand. People wanna see a LinkedIn profile that has a college that I recognize to know, okay, this person is educated or this person has a certain certain skill set or has achieved this certain level of success in life. I think for the tier two schools, for the small liberal arts schools that cost a fortune, look, no one in California knows what DePauw or Hanover is. Joel: And those schools cost a ton of money. If you go out of state, just a state school, it's three x if my kids go to Wisconsin versus Indiana. I think like for or me, and this is just personal story, if you're a college that isn't a brand name, I think that the value of what you have, unless it's a real specific skill like a Rose-Hulman for engineering, that your value to people is only going to go down. Because there used to be a day where you just had to have a degree. The people that would go to a state school, a second tier school that would've normally stayed four years just because they had to have the degree to have the job, they don't need that anymore. So those schools in the middle, I think are gonna suffer quite a bit as people need them less and less, and certainly don't need the bill and the headaches that come with those degrees going into the future. So to me, this is a natural evolution of kind of how the educational system is gonna shake out out. Chad: You're a little biased too. You have a wife that's a professor, and your kids can prospectively go to school for free which is not the case for most. And going into debt which is a wonderful thing for your family. But for most Americans, it's just not the case. Joel: So it's half off, not free. And my wife married me, so how fucking smart can she actually be? Let's be honest, let's be honest. It's not a good future for her either. [overlapping conversation] Chad: You were smart. Joel: All right. Well, let's talk about some layoffs in tech. Sorry. Job strength in tech. Chad: There you go. Joel: Despite a series of high profile layoffs in Big Tech over the past year, the jobs outlook in the sector has held fairly strong TechCrunch reports. It notes that the overall July jobs report was quote, more than decent for a supposedly slowing economy with unemployment at 3.6% nationally. But zooming in on tech shows a sector with unemployment now back under 2% based on CompTIA research, the number of digital job openings is still growing too, though, at a slower pace compared to last year. Chad, your take on the consistently strong job market for techies. Chad: The tech industry isn't only about for tech companies, right? The trucking company or the trucking industry needs tech people. Education, communication, retail, entertainment, healthcare, financial services, yada, yada, yada. All those industries need tech people. This is always going to be strong and it should continue to be strong. Then add the CHIPS Act into the equation, as we talked about last week we don't have enough talent for the jobs the government is creating. Yes. The US government is creating jobs and corporate America is falling flat on their face again, that's the thing. Both the tech and the degree examples demonstrate that in the past, we talent acquisition, we weren't really trying to fix the problem and meet the market where it was, we need to invest in our middle schools, our high schools, our community colleges, things that are close, and we need to start creating actual talent pipelines around these tech sector positions. And again, we had a whole pretty much segment last week around CHIPS on this. We have to be able to be smarter in building for the next 10 to 20 to 30 years instead of like we do here in the US. We're only thinking quarter to quarter. We can't continue to live and strive that way. Joel: Yep. By the way, I have a call out to Erik Estrada. He's still on the fence about coming on the show to talk about the CHIPS Act I think he's confused about what we... Chad: Yes, I can't wait. Joel: What we actually wanna talk about, so... I can't wait. So for years, big tech, hoarded hoarded, the best developers in the world. And companies that wanted great tech talent, couldn't afford it, couldn't get access to it because the Googles and the Apples of the world just overpaid and hoarded tech people when money was free. Well, those big tech companies have laid off a lot of tech workers. So companies that couldn't afford those workers a year ago, two years ago, suddenly find themselves in a position where, holy shit, these developers that used to work at these big companies now wanna work for me. So you can bet your ass that if I get access to this talent and I have stuff I've wanted to build for months or years, I'm gonna hire this talent and get this stuff built and grow my company. Joel: I think that's what we're seeing now with strength in the tech sector. You mentioned the CHIP stuff, cybersecurity remains a big thing. We got solar and batteries and lit. Like, there's so much new stuff that these companies and you're also talking about startups in AI and environmental businesses for climate change that are coming online. And they're being founded by these same developers that are then turning around and hiring their friends that were at the company and saying, Hey, come work for us and get stock and like, make it big. So the evolution of this is just trickling down to they're being released. This talent pool has been released, they've been freed, and now they're going off and, and doing their own thing and getting new opportunities. Chad: But we need more. Joel: Yeah. The question is, we don't have enough people for the CHIPs to be made in this country. So we need to relax our immigration rules to let these folks in, to let them stay once they get a college degree or get educated in these industries. AI to me, is only gonna support the growth of more and more of these businesses because if you don't need... If you need three developers instead of 10, or you need 10 instead of 20, AI will support that. But those folks are gonna go get jobs at other companies where they're needed. And this will just sort of domino effect. But to me, if you're in the tech sector, I initially thought this is a bad sign for like, sites that help you find and hire tech folks. But some of this data outta TechCrunch tells me that, geez, there's, there's a lot of opportunity, a lot of runway, yeah. Joel: With talented tech people to get jobs to start companies. Once the capital starts getting freed with inflation going down or the barring rate going down like Katy bar the door, there's gonna be so many companies get so much money around these ideas and initiatives that it's gonna be fun to talk about. And we're gonna get a lot of new companies, I'm sure do some cool stuff in our space as well. Let's take a quick break and talk about McDonald's as we're on the cusp of, you guessed it. Lunch... Chad: Mickey D's. Joel: All right. Chad, a TikTok user. You've heard of TikTok, right? Yeah. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: If you're not following us on TikTok, we're putting our shorts from the show up. It's a nice little highlight reel. Chad: Oh, it's fun. Joel: Of what's going on? Anyway... Chad: It's fun. Joel: A TikTok user. Let's call him Tristan because that's his username. Recently criticized McDonald's in a video after he arrived on time for a scheduled job interview. Oh, let's just have a listen and, and you can decide for yourself. SFX: "I applied at McDonald's in my hometown and I had an interview at 11 o'clock. It's now 11:08. And you're thinking, why are you in your car, Tristan? So here's confirmation of text, multiple texts from the recruiter saying, Hey, you have an interview, a 30 minute interview on August 10th, which is today at 11:00 AM. Your interview will be held at this location then, Hey, again, 10:01. Hey Tristan. Your 30 minute in-person interview will be held at McDonald's in one hour, reminding me this was yesterday, telling me that this is happening. All of it, following the, this is the whole thread of the application process verification, the interview time, the interview day, how long it's gonna be. I walk up to the front counter at 10:50 and I say, hello, I am here for an interview. Guy looks at me dead in the face and says, no, you don't. And I said, I do. I filled out the application online. He said, no you don't. No one is here to interview. He starts handing me a paper application and said, no, you have to fill the application on paper. And I said, I've been receiving text from the recruiter here, it's supposed to be at 11:00. Joel: Fuck. SFX: He said yeah, no one is here to hire you. So he hands me a piece of paper, he hands me a pen, goes back to work. And like, nothing happened. So I'm sitting there like, I shouldn't have to take this because I've had multiple texts and I've had multiple confirmation. I've talked to a physical recruiter about what time this is supposed to be. I set this up with a physical or a virtually physical person. Talked to the other lady and she said, yeah, that person that's supposed to interview you is not supposed to be here for another 2 hours. And I was like, they want me to wait for two hours? Joel: Virtually physical. So some things are really interesting here. He thinks he's actually talking to a recruiter, like I think he really thinks a human being. He says virtually, like but I know this because my son applied to McDonald's through Paradox and Olivia, and the same process happened. Text messages. Schedule, you get fired up your interview is today. And there's apparently a disconnect. I don't know if it's widespread. Chad: So what happened with your son when he got there? Were they ready? Joel: They were ready. Either this McDonald has totally dropped the ball. But anyway, like I was saying, this guy's post 400,000-some views. Chad: Yeah. Joel: A ton of comments of people saying the same thing. They weren't all McDonald's, of course. Walmart was in there. I think target a couple of Domino's maybe I saw comments on. So we need to get the tech and the humans right with automation and the humans at the location to make sure this stuff doesn't happen. Because job seekers think they're talking to real people. And when you're not there when they show up and you don't show up for two hours, that's bad for everybody. What are your thoughts? Chad: I think it's fairly simple. This is a human problem, period. Number one, from a management problem, being able to actually manage your own fucking calendar when you have a system that's doing all the work for you. And number two, the setup on the front-end, this is a human problem. I mean, literally, it's getting mad at the hammer when you needed a screwdriver in the first fucking place. I mean, these guys, it drives me fucking crazy. So McDonald's in that case, it was more than likely it was a franchise issue. I know that I've heard many individuals who have gone through McDonald's, like Cole did. And it was like, boom. It was quick, it was easy, it was streamlined, it was nothing. Joel: Mm-hmm. Chad: These are the blips in the radar, which you are correct, that are going to get a lot of views. That could be one location that's a problem in the tens of thousands that are throughout the United States. Joel: Technology would be great if it weren't for all the people. The worker had no clue either. Chad: Yeah. Joel: So, like the management at this McDonald's needs to let everyone know. Like, hey, we have this computer system that chats with candidates and if they come in and say, I've applied like they have through this system and not hand someone a paper application, that's just miserable. You need to educate your people on what the hell is going on. By the way, Chad, have you heard Mark Zuckerberg regularly eats 4000 calories at McDonald's as part of his new training regimen? Oh, yes. Here's his diet, Chad. 20 McNuggets, a Quarter Pounder, large fries, Oreo McFlurry, apple pie, and a couple of the cheeseburgers just for some snacks later. Are you kidding me? What a lightweight. What kind of weak ass is that? Shit, Chad. That's what I call a snack. We out. We out. Outro: Wow, look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded it to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey, or just watch big booty Latinas and bug-fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt. But save some soap because you'll be back like an awful train wreck. You can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

The work from home movement is under fire. Jamie Dimon says it’s a productivity issue. Elon Musk says it’s a moral issue. As a result, more and more employers are forcing people back to the office. Even Zoom is bringing people back. The future is uncertain, for sure. That’s why we brought Mary Elkordy, president & CEO at Elkordy Global Strategies to the show. Elkordy Global Strategies is a full-service PR firm, well-versed in influencer marketing, talent integration, social media strategy, strategic communications, and digital marketing. A great guest with a unique perspective on a complicated topic. Enjoy! TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts, complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Oh yeah. What's up everybody? It's your favorite semi sober podcast, aka, the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheeseman. Joined as always, the McHale to my bird, Chad Sowash is in the house and today we welcome Mary Elkordy, president and CEO of Elkordy Global Strategies. Mary Elkordy: Well, hello. Thank you for having me on. I'm so excited to be here with both of you. Joel: Oh, you look excited. [laughter] Chad: Lies. Mary Elkordy: Lies. No, not at the moment. If you asked me like 20 minutes ago, maybe it would've been like nah, but now I know how awesome you guys are and I'm cold. I'm so pumped. Joel: She's pumped man? She's been in the green room for five, 10 minutes. We're best friends now. We're best friends. Mary Elkordy: Oof, obviously. Joel: Mary, our listeners, however, don't know you more than likely. So give us a Twitter bio about what makes Mary tick. Mary Elkordy: I, started a PR firm three and a half years ago after I got laid off from the pandemic. It's grown to a team of about 22 over the past three and a half years. Chad: Wow. Mary Elkordy: I never managed people in my life besides, working in radio with a soundboard guy and an intern. So you guys can appreciate what an actual radio team looks like. I go to school at night. I graduate in two months from my second grad degree 'cause I am that nerd and, I'm having a good time talking to the both of you. S?: Alright. Alright. Alright. Chad: Radio, what did you do in radio? You had soundboard guys all other, were you a technician? Were you a production person? What were you doing? Mary Elkordy: No, I produced four shows a day at WABC. And then I was a co-host, and producer for DL Hughley's podcast for three years. Chad: No! Mary Elkordy: Yes. And my nickname was White Chocolate. [laughter] Chad: White Chocolate. I love, we've got white chocolate. Why didn't you lead with that? Joel: That escalated quickly. Chad: I'm also known as White Chocolate. Mary Elkordy: I mean, I'm allegedly serious sometimes, but strong on the alleged. Joel: White Chocolate. Chad: That is awesome. That is awesome and we love it. Joel: I don't know where we go from white chocolate. Chad, pull us in. Chad: I think we're done, I think we go ahead and just wrap up. Thanks Mary. Appreciate the time. Mary Elkordy: Anytime. [laughter] Chad: I'm gonna go ahead. We're gonna talk about remote work today, right? The war on remote. Mary Elkordy: Let's go. Chad: And I wanna throw this out right now. The war on remote work, to me, it sounds like it's dead. Zoom just called back their employees. It's like they're boiling the frog. Everybody's trying to boil the frog. They want 'em in for a couple of days, but we all know what that's gonna end up and back in five days. Right. So... Mary Elkordy: You can't even imagine that. Chad: Can we just say that this thing is dead Zoom the prognosticator of working. Like we're doing this podcast right now, remote... Joel: It's like getting married, like it's over. Chad: Yes, it's over. Joel: It never should have happened. And it did. Chad: It's done. So tell us why remote still lives on Mary. Mary Elkordy: I think people have experienced what, like a taste of freedom of having ability to manage your time outside of your hours. Like imagine like, I can't imagine spending two to four hours a day commuting to work every day. Like that's just like, I'm able to do other stuff with that time or I sleep so much more. Like I don't have bags under my eyes anymore. It's a beautiful thing. But I do think that there are some aspects that people miss in terms of the collaboration and being together and in person. And don't get me wrong, I like that too, but I don't think it's like a necessary requirement every week. I just don't see that being the reality of what people need. And then from like, as a business owner, I think we benefit so much from having an access of talent like all over the world, both from finding talent, but also fiscally, you're able to have potentially better talent because you're able to convince them for lower prices because you're not making them go to work or because they can work from home or because of the flexibility. People value different things when you're doing negotiations for roles. So I think the second that you're requiring someone goes into the office and they give up their time with their kids or their ability to maybe go to school or do other things on the side, like that's an opportunity cost for them and they should be compensated for that, I believe, in their opinion. Chad: So we've seen productivity go up from remote work, we've seen happiness happen with remote work. We've seen all these things and some of those points that you talked about, even finding better talent, right? I mean it's easier when you have a much larger pool, you can catch bigger fish. So why is it, do you think that employers are trying to force this measure of everybody getting back to the office when all of the indicators are saying that doesn't make any sense? Mary Elkordy: I think different companies have different motivations. Do they have leases that they've already spent money on for seven years that they feel like they're just throwing the money away. Joel: Bingo. Mary Elkordy: But like also like the same point, like for instance in New York City, I find it really ironic that they're forcing people to go back into the office and then at the same time they're bringing congestion pricing into the city and they're increasing subway fares. So to me, not to be, I used to work in politics for a long time, so to me, not to be that weird person, but like, are you just forcing people to come back to the city as like a business move to enforce people to spend money on the subway, to force people to spend $9 to go above 62nd street in the city? So I think everyone has different motivations. Mary Elkordy: I do think for some industries the collaboration and in-person aspect may be like a requirement. Whether if they're like, if they're doing certain type of skills or industries that are very hands-on and you need like people in the same room. But I think for industries like service-based industries, like what I do, I don't believe you really need that. And I think it also hurts the end consumer, right? Because if I have to get office space, I'm spending money on rent, which means I automatically have to increase my prices. So if you're trying to like have competitive prices and you're in a world where most, there's a huge percentage of companies that have the ability to be remote, you're gonna have a harder time, in my opinion, getting work because your prices will not be as competitive. Joel: I love that you mentioned, the commercial real estate aspect of this and Chad and I talked recently about, WeWork essentially, pooping the bed, if you will and talking about bankruptcy and going out of business. Now Chad and I find that very curious because if any company should be working right now, it should be WeWork with you have flexible leases and employees, individuals can come in and out. What's your read on the WeWork meltdown? Mary Elkordy: I think that in terms of I think they got, with any business, there's this really hard balance of like embracing the growth and opportunities and then moving too quick. I think they got stock happy, right? They got excited that all these people wanted these things to a point where they just signed up for so much before they could guarantee that. And I think a lot of businesses, when you see an influx of clients, and I've even gone through that too as a business where you see much potential, but then you can't predict the future. Like if someone talks about recessions then clients leave. But you just hired three people, and that's similar to what WeWork did, except on a much larger, massive scales with like, things that they are guaranteed to for like seven years. Mary Elkordy: Now, the irony is if they were, if they managed it better, I think that they would be doing very well now. Because for me, like a WeWork is something that I would consider in a year or two just to have like the op because people, some, like some teams, like people want the option to come in once in a while or have a place to go to. Like I love my dogs, but like, sometimes I just need to leave the house. Like I call 'em my chief barking officers, they enter most of my conversations. It's a selling point for some, but for me, by the time it's 6:00 PM like, I honestly need to leave. And I think some people with their kids around, summer vacation, their husband's next to them their whole day. They have no separation of space or their own time. I do think there is value to that. I just don't think you need the same level of real estate or space or commitment to like a landlord or a commercial real estate property or even buying as a business. Joel: Yeah, well from one eccentric founder and Adam Newman let's go to another. So Chad and I have talked about sort of all the reasons that the ivory tower folks talk about coming back to the office. We've heard culture, we've heard just business sense. One of the more interesting one is that it's a morality question. I'm gonna play a soundbite from Elon Musk in an interview with CNBC and get your opinion. Mary Elkordy: Is he gonna carry the kitchen sinks with him this time too? Mary Elkordy: Something like that. Yeah. [laughter] S?: I'm a big believer that people need to, are more productive when they're in person. But there are some exceptions, but I kind of think that the whole notion of work from home is a bit like the fake Marie Antoinette quote, let them eat cake. It's like really you're gonna work from home and you're gonna make everyone else who made your car come work in the factory. You're gonna make the people who make your food that gets delivered that they can't work from home. The people that come fix your house they can't work from home but you can? Does that seem morally right? Joel: Mary, what's your take? Mary Elkordy: For me, I think it's a stretch. I don't think, I think in any industry, for instance, you could complain about someone else, like the grass is always greener. But if you made a choice to be in a certain industry that you know is very hands-on, like building a car. Obviously, that's not going away as a remote work job anytime soon. And if that's something that is bothering you, then maybe find a different path. I don't think it's a moral issue, personally. I do think that when he makes an argument about productivity, I would humbly disagree. I think I work way more, and I think my team does, because they don't have that same level of like, oh, let me go talk in the break room, or let's go to happy hour. Let's leave for happy hour early. Or I need to head home because I have like two hours of traffic and I need to do whatever. I think people like, and then it becomes a problem, right? Mary Elkordy: Actually on the flip side of like burnout, because it's so easy when I have no time, I just put, I put the computer on my lap when I go to work. And there's no boundaries when you're in your home, it's really hard to create those boundaries with remote work at home. So I would humbly disagree with a lot of that statement that he's made. I do think it's harder to monitor people, but I think in any office place, like let's say I'm like a hawk. No one likes a hawk. Like whether you're at home or you're in office. And the thing is, if you don't, in both scenarios, if someone's not doing the work and you have a decent processes and a decent management, you'll notice that someone's slacking. Like I can tell when someone's slacking pretty quickly. Do I need to see them to know that? No. Chad: So I think you just pointed out something, which is really the problem. And tell me what you think about this. I think this is a management issue more than it is a worker issue. Because if you don't have KPIs, you don't have goals, you don't have set phase lines for projects and things like that, and you are not managing those people to those then that's more management than it is the actual individual. So to me this is more control and micromanagement than it is anything else. What's your take on that? Mary Elkordy: Yeah, I think that there's this concept of micromanagement that as I was saying, like no one likes, right? But if you have to create processes, whether it's every company is different on how they measure their time, but it's about creating a process that works for your company. And with any business, there's a testing phase, right? You're piloting something, you're trying something out. It may take a couple of times to find what works best for your company, but I don't think it's at a place where it's impossible for any company to be able to manage or be able to evaluate how effective their team is and can be. And it's also about having regular communication. I think one of the hardest things when we were starting is like getting people to use the phone. Like to call, even for me when I'm someone that's a very big multitasker. Mary Elkordy: Like I may talk, you guys can tell I can talk. But if someone messages me during work, I may send two words. Okay, cool. And people take that offensively like, oh, well she's, that she thinks, and there's a lot of, there's that tone and that learning curve of knowing that person in a different way than in person. And I think maybe that's where some of the disconnect is, but that's why it's like teaching a team to pick up the phone to go on the Zoom. And I think that's probably, I think the hardest thing in terms of building a culture, is building people who can actually communicate with one another outside of like being able to tap on their shoulder. Chad: Right. But that's a management point though. I mean, if you're feeling that as the team, then that's a point where you have to manage your people. So we've seen some companies and some leaders like David Solomon and Jamie Diamond, where they've been very, very harsh around ensuring that everybody's back to work, period. So are the companies actually starting to take on the identities of their CEOs? And at that point, the culture of the organization is much like the CEO, right? So you can start to... At that point understand where you wanna work and where you don't wanna work. Mary Elkordy: Yeah. And I think that's one of the benefits of a remote work and freelancing, to be honest. I find when we're hiring more in today's world, that more people are wanting to test out their employer before committing to their employer because they know that... Especially in these remote companies where you have no office, the identity really is the founder and how the founder sets that tone because everything... Your whole identity is based on that really as a company. So I do think there's that, but I think people are more wanting to test out the relationship on both sides. A lot of the people that have become full-time with me, were freelancers to start with right? Because... And even when I hire certain people, they're like, "Oh, well I have several clients and I'm just trying to figure out which one I wanna work full-time for." The fact that someone can do that is amazing for them. Chad: Yeah. Autonomy. Joel: Let's talk about demographics. So no one on this call is in the 18 to 34 demographic. Chad: I am. Joel: However... [laughter] Chad: I am. I'm 33. Joel: Then you're perfect to answer to this question, so... Mary Elkordy: Okay. Joel: But I do remember those days and I remember being new to the work world and realizing how important mentorship was and realizing how important seeing older colleagues work and how work is done and how the whole game is played. Are we alleviating a large part of the working community by making young people stay at home? In other words, I wanted to be in the office when I was 25. I wanted to get outta my apartment, I wanted to interact with people, I wanted to go to happy hour afterwards. That was something I looked forward to now that at the age I am now less so how does that whole thing play out? Do the older folks have to come back for a few mentoring days? What's your vision on how that whole thing plays out? Mary Elkordy: I think mentoring could happen virtually and in person. I think mentoring is an ongoing process. And I think as a company... Well, it's for two things. If you're in that age group, whether you work for a company that does mentoring or not, there's a lot of opportunities and avenues to find mentors. And I think it's networking and really leveraging the network that you're building for yourself. But I think as a company it's also providing opportunities for people to learn. And then something that we are going to be doing, which is teaming people up, pairing people who have more experience versus those that aren't. And just making them have coffee once a month or chat and just as human beings. Because even if you don't work with someone directly on a team, doesn't mean they don't have value or insight to offer. And so I think it's just really how you structure that within your company. And then, as a remote company, we typically do a one year weekend thing where everyone comes to New York and people are like, "Oh, are you gonna do trust falls?" I'm like, "No, we're just gonna have life experiences together, explore, get to know each other personally, do fun things. Whether it's seeing a sports game or just taking away random walk in the city and get to know one another." And I think for me, building those memories and trust has more impact than me doing a leadership training meeting. Joel: Do you think it's important as an employer, if you have younger employees, that you give them an outlet to get out of their apartment or living situation and go to a coffee shop or go to a workspace where they can have a desk if they want? Do you think that's important or no? Mary Elkordy: For us, we don't care where you are per se as long as you communicate. So I do think people should take advantage of it. Now in terms of a company sponsor like Workspace, I think if the company can do that, they should... We... I'm considering at some point getting a small office or a WeWork or something along those lines, just so that people have a place to go if they just wanna leave and have the thing. But we also... I also try to plan activities where I am. Like going to a baseball game or doing something that's not just surrounded with solely just alcohol. Joel: Yep. [laughter] Mary Elkordy: Right? Or solely just coffee. Something that we actually bring people together... Joel: Or both. Mary Elkordy: And have a good time, or both. I do love my coffee. I notoriously never finished my iced coffee, but I do love coffee. Joel: And I love my Irish coffees, Mary. Mary Elkordy: Me too. Joel: I'll let you go on this one. What does work from home look like five years from now? Mary Elkordy: I think work from home is going to stay. I think that there will be solutions that companies will have to create for those that want that balance and so that they can still maintain different types of talent, right? So if you're looking to have that in-office experience or options, I think it depends on where you're at as a company financially and size wise. But I do think that there should be options for people to do that if they want that but I don't think it... I don't believe it's going to be mandated for most companies 'cause there's going to be a... Unless it's a company where you make badonkadonk money, [laughter] right? You're not gonna be able to compete with the fact that people like the flexibility of having options. Mary Elkordy: I think we're just in a society where people like options, right? Sometimes too much, right? Sometimes I say if it wasn't for my dogs, I would be traveling constantly. I'd have no home base. So I think that there's some grounding that some people may not get if they really dive too deep. But I do think that there's... People like options and the more that we're able to give reasonable options, I think that there's this thing in society where they expect so much from their employer. Not just a place to work, but like I refer to myself as a therapist half the day for the team. I hear everybody's problems or all these different hats that people have to... All these expectations of what an employment means, right? And so I think it's just finding that balance of like, "Yes, I'm offering you a place to work and also offering you a place to grow and place to be able to provide for your family, but we also still have to get work done too." So I think it's that balance of options, caring for people, but being able to obtain and sustain and retain talent. Joel: It's all about the badonkadonk money, Chad. Chad: Always about the badonkadonk money. Mary Elkordy: I just came up with that. [laughter] Chad: You should keep it, you should definitely keep it. Mary, thanks so much for coming on the show. I want to... I wanna give you a chance to tell the listeners where they can find out more about you, connect with you and maybe even start a conversation around remote work, PR, who knows? Where do they find Mary? Mary Elkordy: It's very easy to find me 'cause I'm the only one with this last name and first name. So at Mary Elkordy. E-L-K-O-R... D as in David, Y, by my Instagram, TikTok, Twitter, all the places in the world. Chad: Excellent. Joel: She loves posting the shorts, Chad. So if you like your video shorts, [laughter] Mary's the one to follow. Chad: I love video shorts. Joel: This was fun. Another one in the can. Nice to meet you, Mary. Hopefully, we'll see you around New York City sometime. And with that we out. Chad: We out. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forward it to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell. Enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey. Or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead, now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back like an awful train wreck. You can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

Ever wanted to hear an interview with a former recruiter at Facebook, Apple and Tesla? How about one that’s currently blazing a trail at EV maker Rivian? Well, it’s your lucky day, because Chad & Cheese sat down with Rameen Fattahi, director, recruiting operations & insights at Rivian while they were all at iCIMS Inspire to hear Rameen’s story. Don’t worry. Along the way, there are stories about Elon and Zuck.rivian PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps forward thinking employers create world class hiring and retention programs for people with disabilities. INTRO: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. [music] Joel Cheeseman: Oh, yeah. What's up, everybody? This is Joel Cheeseman recording live from iCIMS Inspire. I am joined, as always, by my co-host, Chad Sowash. Chad Sowash: What's up? Joel Cheeseman: And today we are excited to welcome... [applause] Joel Cheeseman: Rameen Fattahi, Director, Recruiting Operations and Insights... Chad Sowash: That was good. Joel Cheeseman: At Rivian, a little EV company that we haven't talked about on the podcast, at least. Chad Sowash: I've been excited to see those out. Joel Cheeseman: Welcome to the podcast. Now you were at our party in Vegas. Have you recovered, I guess is the first question. [laughter] Rameen Fattahi: I refrain from commenting on this question. Joel Cheeseman: No comment. Okay. [laughter] Rameen Fattahi: For my professional career and... Chad Sowash: That's great. Joel Cheeseman: That's a good time. Chad Sowash: That's better than a comment. Rameen Fattahi: Let's rewind. [laughter] Rameen Fattahi: I actually promised myself that, I wanna do what you guys do, which is be authentic and true to the industry so that people can hear somebody say something that means something to them. Not what you want to hear, but just to tell you how it is. And I appreciate what you guys are doing, as in the HR function, the TA space, you're bringing light to, not us being a bunch of hermit crabs behind the scenes, but actually normal, fun, kind, loving people. Joel Cheeseman: He's softening us up for the hard-hitting questions later. [laughter] Joel Cheeseman: Clearly, clearly. [laughter] Joel Cheeseman: Clear enough. Rameen, we appreciate that and we appreciate you being a fan of ours. Rameen Fattahi: So we had a good time is what I'm hearing, yes. Chad Sowash: Absolutely. Joel Cheeseman: Now, before the show in our green room, if you will, you were getting really personal about your journey and how you got here, which I think is interesting. Tell us the story about how you got into this profession. 'Cause your resume is outstanding. Now we're talking Tesla, Apple. What else is on there? Rameen Fattahi: I don't like to name names, but Facebook and Huawei and... [laughter] Joel Cheeseman: I don't like to name names, but Facebook is on there. Chad Sowash: Some of the biggest names in the world. Joel Cheeseman: A hell of a resume no matter what. So how did you get here? Rameen Fattahi: It's a long road. I think, let's take it back. Who am I? I'm an Iranian American, born in America. My parents and family and my sister were immigrants from Iran. Father's a doctor. My mom was a teacher. When I grew up, everyone was like, "Rameen, what are you gonna do one day?" 'Cause I saw my dad. I was like, "I'm gonna help people. I'm gonna be a doctor. I'm gonna be a brain surgeon." And that's all fun and games, and the reality is... Chad Sowash: What did dad do? Rameen Fattahi: He does veins. He's specialized in veins. Chad Sowash: In veins? Rameen Fattahi: Leg veins, straight up. My dad is one of a couple of people in the world... Chad Sowash: Wow. Rameen Fattahi: Who just worked on leg veins and loved it. Joel Cheeseman: Bulging veins, Chad. That's what he specialized in. [laughter] Chad Sowash: So we know where to go one day. Joel Cheeseman: Yes. When... Rameen Fattahi: Actually, I got the hookup. Chad Sowash: When Aunt Thelma needs to... [laughter] Rameen Fattahi: Oh. But let's bring it back. So, I graduated with wanting to be like my dad. So I did neurobiology, physiology and behavior at UC Davis. Chad Sowash: Damn. Rameen Fattahi: I did surgery labs in the last part of school. And it was really exciting, but I also thought it was gross. The excitement of getting there and being like, "I'm gonna work on a live animal and do these procedures and help the research," was exciting. But when you get your hand involved in it, you have to ask yourself, "do I want people to want me to be that person?" [laughter] Rameen Fattahi: I don't think so, because I don't know if I love this. [laughter] Rameen Fattahi: And you gotta understand when I told you my story, we all come from different cultures and backgrounds. But you have to understand, when I went to my parents and had that family talk, because that's what we do in my culture, my mom cried. My dad was taken aback and then said, "No, I agree." That time when this man was in the people business, when you were promoting a club at 18, I saw just a light in you. When you were in restaurants working in, went from Buster all the way to Manager, I saw a different light in you and you just... I see something about people. So that's where it all started. Chad Sowash: So dad was into it, really? Rameen Fattahi: Dad was into it. Mom was like, "what!" Chad Sowash: So culturally... Joel Cheeseman: I know I've tried to put my hand in a few places that I didn't want to really go. Chad Sowash: Yeah, well you got smashed. That's different. Joel Cheeseman: So I can relate to this. Chad Sowash: That's different. [chuckle] Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. Chad Sowash: So dad was behind it. And that... Rameen Fattahi: That was that. Rameen Fattahi: He was in the profession. He was medical doctor and usually you love to see son come up behind you. That is amazing that he just was like, he doubled down and said, "no, I get it." Chad Sowash: He's just like, "I really believe that at the core, what will make you happy is not this. Thank you for bringing this forward to the family." Joel Cheeseman: Dad of the year. Rameen Fattahi: Fuck yeah. Joel Cheeseman: Dad of the year. Chad Sowash: Yeah. [laughter] Rameen Fattahi: Sorry for my language, but fuck. Yeah. Chad Sowash: Yeah, me too, oh Yeah. Rameen Fattahi: Obviously I pride in family. But my sister, who's seven years older than me, she had spent a lifetime to get into Apple. She truly was invested into the recruiting environment and she was a coordinator there. And she was a coordinator for five or six years. Joel Cheeseman: So you said outside of your mom, so mom wasn't into it. Talk about that. Rameen Fattahi: You know, mom's real happy now. We're 13 years later... [laughter] Rameen Fattahi: She sees the vision, once that vision came through. Chad Sowash: 13 years later. Yeah. Rameen Fattahi: And she sees me happy and I'm helping people, but from a different lens. I think that recruiting is one of the greatest experiences. I was on stage today with Laura and what a tremendous experience. I told her backstage, I said, "I can't be you because I love recruiting." I got lucky. Okay. 13 years ago I was gonna open a restaurant. I came out of school and was going to open a restaurant. Chad Sowash: You were going to open a restaurant? Rameen Fattahi: Pizza, beer, and burgers. That's it. Chad Sowash: Too easy. Rameen Fattahi: 24 beers on tap. Joel Cheeseman: I'm in. Rameen Fattahi: I was excited. And I swear the weekend before we signed that lease, it was gonna be 350 a square foot. And I know 'cause that's what I was that far deep. Chad Sowash: Yeah. Rameen Fattahi: I got a call from one of my buddies and he said, "Rameen, my family comes from the restaurant world. Don't do it." And he's like, I just... "We struggled. We've gone through a lot of change. You win sometimes, but you lose a lot. And it's seven days a week, 14 to 18 hours a day." Chad Sowash: Oh God. Rameen Fattahi: "It's a beast. I don't recommend you do this, but guess what? I'm in an agency. I've been here for 30 days. I'm doing great. And I think your personality would be great for his come recruit. Come recruit, please." Chad Sowash: Oh, damn. He recruited him out of going into the restaurant and just... [laughter] Joel Cheeseman: To be in recruiting. Chad Sowash: Oh, it's awesome. Rameen Fattahi: Yeah. He's a good friend of mine to this day. Chad Sowash: Yeah. Rameen Fattahi: And I trusted him. I said, "You know what? Why don't I interview?" We started in a company called 314E. It's probably on my resume. Joel Cheeseman: So timeout, you had, you're ready to sign on the dotted line to open a restaurant... Rameen Fattahi: Ready to sign on the dotted line with my uncle... Joel Cheeseman: And your boy said, "Come be a recruiter." Rameen Fattahi: Yes. Joel Cheeseman: And you did a 180 and said, "I'm gonna go investigate this." Rameen Fattahi: That's true. Joel Cheeseman: Damn. Alright. Rameen Fattahi: So, you can always open a restaurant, right? You're like, "Let's try something else out, maybe." I really believe in being open to new ideas. I'm told all the time, why don't you push the team in a direction? I'm like, "Let's get there together, I only executive decision one out of maybe 15, 20 things. Why don't we get there all together?" And it helps to build and drive a really healthy team. I wanna share this story because I think there's a lot of people that would appreciate having an authentic look of how did someone develop in 13 years from where I was coming out of school, trying to find my path to 13 years later, leading director of recruiting operations and insights at Rivian. Starting on a team of less than 10 people with no written process. Starting a company of 700 and saying, I'm gonna build an internet, a career site, and an ATS, I'm gonna build an internal mobility referral, everything from scratch. So how that really happened? [laughter] Rameen Fattahi: Going all the way back. I was in 314E and I was an agency recruiter, guys, and it was awesome. But I really struggled and I struggled with the fact that in an agency environment, the best interest is what you can do for your company. Not in what you can do for the community and then the candidates you're working for. So I struggled one time, I remember it very vividly. There was a woman, and in recruiting we don't discriminate. We don't ask you personal questions. I do not ask Joel, "What do you do on the weekends?" I don't wanna know. But people elect things all the time. I'm sure you guys see this. Chad Sowash: Oh God, yeah. Overshare is what we call it. [laughter] Rameen Fattahi: And in the spirit of oversharing, I was with a woman who was going through something in her life. She had three kids. She was going through something. She explained her situation to me without me even asking. And I said, "Oh my goodness, I wanna max you out. I wanna take care of you on a human level." But when you're 22 years old and you go tell your vice president in an agency that I wanna go help this person, they're just like, "You know what? That's coming out of your commission." I'm like, "Don't even worry about that." They're like, "Well, that's coming out of the company's commission." That threw me off, boys. That threw me off. Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. Yeah. Rameen Fattahi: So my sister, she had been at Apple, actually ended her career last year at Apple. And she was in a coordinator role... Joel Cheeseman: We're talking Cupertino Apple. Rameen Fattahi: Cupertino at the main silo. And she basically was like, "Rameen, I've been promoted to a sourcer role. I think you should come over here and interview for a coordinator role." [laughter] Rameen Fattahi: And I was like, "You know what... " Chad Sowash: Yeah. Why not? Rameen Fattahi: I wanna be in corporate recruiting. There's a different lens of how you interact with people in a corporate environment where it's like, I want it to be equal. We got ranges. You gotta go outside of that range. Why? Define that. Go to your comp team explain to them why you're paying someone more than everybody else on the team destroying the internal equity. So we have some parameters that keep us locked. And got really lucky that my sister was in that role because she helped prepare me for that interview. That's where I wanted to be authentic with people. Like, you can get help out there, whether it's your sister, your friend, like in my story already, we haven't even crossed me being my second role and I've gotten help from two different people. Joel Cheeseman: And the importance of a network, I mean, granted family... Rameen Fattahi: Absolutely. Joel Cheeseman: But until you know people that can help you get that foot in the door. Rameen Fattahi: Absolutely. Joel Cheeseman: You've got an uphill battle to get... Rameen Fattahi: Absolutely. Joel Cheeseman: Those opportunities. Rameen Fattahi: And keep your eyes and ears out. People will reach out to you and say, "I got an idea for you and you should hear it." In my case, it helped me and I'm so happy now. So I go join Apple. Joel Cheeseman: So what years are we talking at Apple? Rameen Fattahi: Oh. We're in 2023. We're talking about 2010, '11 now, '12 maybe. Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. So you engaged with Steve Jobs at some point or you saw him somewhere. Rameen Fattahi: I did not personally engage with Steve Jobs. Joel Cheeseman: Okay. Rameen Fattahi: I am not that... [laughter] Joel Cheeseman: Did you see him from across the cafeteria? Rameen Fattahi: I've seen Tim. [laughter] Rameen Fattahi: I've later hired someone on my team here at Rivian who, he actually told Steve Jobs without looking up, "No, you can't have my cafeteria table." [laughter] Rameen Fattahi: He had no idea to sell a sea shots in the '90s. "No, you can't have my... " The world is small. Chad Sowash: We know that guy. Rameen Fattahi: Oh. Chad Sowash: Oh, we know that guy. Rameen Fattahi: He's a tremendous name, employee in marketing. [laughter] Rameen Fattahi: I'll save him because he deserves his own podcast. [laughter] Rameen Fattahi: But gentlemen, I'm now coordinating at Apple. I'm 22, maybe 23 years old. Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. Rameen Fattahi: I've got six months of agency recruiting experience. I joined as a coordinator. I got to support multiple functions from technology, mostly IT to marketing and GNA. While doing this, my recruiters that interviewed me said, "Hey, you are a recruiter and I need extra help. I don't have a sourcer on my team. You mind just moonlighting?" And I said, "What an opportunity. Thank you for this opportunity." And so I took that opportunity and without telling my boss. [laughter] Rameen Fattahi: I literally would spend my evening sourcing. And when you're in a coordinator role, it's hourly usually it's not exempt, and so I didn't clock any of those or say anything. What ended up happening for me was, it's about six months and 14 people that passed through and got all the way to hire through my sourcing effort, my recruiters went to their leaders and said, "let's bring this guy on the team. Bring this guy and interview him on the team." And it was true, I showed up with 12 senior recruiters that today are my mentors. And without them, again networking again, other people, I don't know if I'd be in front of you today and have the opportunity to speak. And there's this secret trick for a bunch of people that might be new in any new role. Go out of your office or whatever seat you have and don't ask anybody the same question twice and don't ask the same people a second question in the same day. That was my trick. [laughter] Rameen Fattahi: I had 12 mentors. I'd walk from one person to the next, ask them a different question and nobody knew I didn't know what I was talking about. [laughter] Rameen Fattahi: And I was able to have tremendous output through their brains. And I wanna be honest about it. Joel Cheeseman: That's some next level shit. Chad Sowash: It is next level. That's what would piss me off. As a manager, when one, when somebody would come to me and it's just like, I'm like, "Okay, come on. Can you not figure this shit out by now?" [laughter] Chad Sowash: "come on, genius." Rameen Fattahi: So that naturally progressed into, if you have an aspiration and you're willing to go above your role to do it and not say anything about it, not ask for anyone to tell you about it, other people will reward you by talking about your work. And that will help you get to the next level. So in this case, that happened. Next thing I knew, I was sourcing for IT at Apple. I was the youngest member of that workforce. I hate to bring age in here, I hate it, but I was so proud of the work that I was doing. Yeah. It was exciting. Joel Cheeseman: Was mom on board by now? Rameen Fattahi: No. Yeah. Mommy, I love you. Joel Cheeseman: You're at Apple, still Mom isn't on board. Okay. [laughter] Rameen Fattahi: I love my mom. I promised an authentic discussion. Yeah. [laughter] Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. [laughter] Rameen Fattahi: Boys, I'm at Apple sourcing. It's going great. Meeting new business units, meeting new leaders. What I had never imagined was that my boss's boss's boss's boss, who was the VP of all of Apple recruiting, would leave and she would go to another company, at this point, Tesla. She would take my director and he would call me and say, "Ramin, I'd like for you to join this team." And I said, "what?" [chuckle] Rameen Fattahi: "You know my name?" [laughter] Chad Sowash: They're sitting at a Starbucks, early in the morning, "what hard workers do you know that we can take with us? I don't want the skanks, I just want the hard workers." [laughter] Joel Cheeseman: How many years at Apple before Tesla? Rameen Fattahi: Do I have to have two, three drinks before we got into this? [laughter] Joel Cheeseman: That is true. That is true. We did lubricate the guests before. Chad Sowash: Carry on. Rameen Fattahi: It was after Apple. I promised authentic and indirect. I jumped ship. And let me tell you something. I've told a bunch of people that I've hired. I never thought when I joined Apple, I was ever gonna leave. I had no idea. Chad Sowash: What'd your sister think? 'Cause she was there. Rameen Fattahi: My sister told my mom and dad and me... [laughter] Rameen Fattahi: Our personality's a little bit different. She's, "I like the stability." Chad Sowash: Yeah. Rameen Fattahi: Have you ever met an employee that'll tell you, "I don't want your promotion, 'cause it comes with more scope."? Chad Sowash: Yes. Rameen Fattahi: I happen to have one in my family and it's... [laughter] Rameen Fattahi: And I love it. I'm like, "You know what? That's super different from me." And we have... Chad Sowash: Yes. And she's not living to work? Rameen Fattahi: That's correct. Chad Sowash: She's working to live, and we're starting to see more of that in our culture. Rameen Fattahi: Absolutely. And I'm the flip opposite. Right? [laughter] Chad Sowash: Yeah. Now me too. I know, I know dude. Rameen Fattahi: It was exciting. God. Apologies. Chad Sowash: I'm ashamed of it sometimes. [laughter] Joel Cheeseman: These are early days at Tesla. Rameen Fattahi: Early... You know when? It was Model 3 ramp, the Model 3 was just starting to create a production line. Chad Sowash: Damn. Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. You took a big risk in this. Talk about how you felt in doing that and taking the leap and... Chad Sowash: Wow. Joel Cheeseman: What was it like? You didn't meet Steve Jobs. [laughter] Joel Cheeseman: I assume you met Elon at some point. Rameen Fattahi: I was excited to join Tesla, but I was afraid to leave what I had had. I never thought of a world where outside of Apple, there was an employment opportunity. I just thought, this is the way that people recruit. This is the way that business operates. And... Joel Cheeseman: I mean, look, people returned your calls. When Apple calls you, they return the call. Rameen Fattahi: That's true. Joel Cheeseman: You're leaving that for, I mean, Tesla's not the worst case scenario for... Rameen Fattahi: Yeah. Yeah. Joel Cheeseman: But you did take a risk. Rameen Fattahi: It was because of leadership. Straight up. When I tell people, and I hire people, I tell them to think about it. And I point blank put myself in the hot seat. I say, "listen, when you get a checklist on what you're looking for, your manager and your leader," I don't like the word manager. "Your leader, the person that inspires you and you're gonna work for, that's really important to you. You need a green check next to that. And that is gonna be the most important thing." Second thing is, "what are you doing? Is the company doing something that makes you super excited?" I chase leaders because through their mentorship and their lenses, I've been able to develop. And if you have a shitty leader, you'll never forget that experience. Chad Sowash: Okay. Well, yeah. And I almost say that those are the most learning focused experiences because you know what not to fucking do. Rameen Fattahi: Totally. Chad Sowash: It's very hard as a leader to know what to do. It is even harder to know what the bad habits are and then you can pinpoint those pretty quickly. Right? You're following good leaders. Rameen Fattahi: I follow good leaders that inspire you and mentor you, and are willing to develop you and challenge you, not someone that you serve. I'm 25 at this point, 26 maybe. I've joined Tesla first week. Young man, young man, super glamored with Elon. I'm walking down with one of my mentors who had also come from Apple to the team, and we see Elon coming down the hallway. [laughter] Super giddy. He goes, "oh shit." He pushes me into the bathroom. And I said, "what happened, man? You just touched me." Chad Sowash: There he is. Yeah. Rameen Fattahi: I was like... Chad Sowash: "You touched me. And now I didn't see Elon." Rameen Fattahi: He get to say hi. He goes, "listen, it's an experience going down right now." And Elon's not like every leader. He's, a very strong forward leader. You may come back and he may ask you the golden question of, "what do you do here?" And you come back with, "I'm brand new, I'm learning my roles." And he might just turn around and be like, "you're not meant for this team 'cause your answer wasn't zoomed out enough," because just last week someone closed the door on one of the cars that he came out of and they got fired on the spot because it was a little too hard. He was at that time going through some hardships and you'll see it through his interviews. He says, "I'm really excited about that guy's brain and where he is pushing us." He was living in the factory, sleeping there to show the factory that, "Hey, I'm in this with you." And just tremendous amount of stress with, "is our company gonna make it? Are we gonna follow around on our finances? We don't have enough for payroll." All these crazy things. Being in the spirit of being authentic, I wanted to meet him. I was told not to meet him. Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. Do you have positive memories of Elon and his management style or? Chad Sowash: Or just Tesla itself? Rameen Fattahi: I have positive memories of Tesla for sure. Joel Cheeseman: Okay. Rameen Fattahi: The workforce is amazing. These are people who wanna inspire the world. These are trailblazers. They're people that are fighting a hard battle. Whether it's the IT folks trying to figure out how to figure out IT and EV space for the first time. Because, it's different from many of the ice combustion engines that we've been dealing with in the companies. Chad Sowash: Dude, we experienced ludicrous speed two days ago. Joel Cheeseman: Ludicrous plus. Rameen Fattahi: No, it was ludicrous speed. [laughter] Chad Sowash: We didn't do plus 'cause it didn't, that would've taken 10 minutes to actually reformulate. Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. Our lungs would've shot out the back of our bodies. [chuckle] Chad Sowash: That shit was ridiculous. Rameen Fattahi: As a person who has both a Tesla and a Rivian truck, they're fast. I traded a Corvette, a Z06 for the Rivian. [laughter] Joel Cheeseman: Let's put a pin on the fact that he owns a Tesla and a Rivian. Chad Sowash: Well he did. Joel Cheeseman: Pull a pin on that and we'll come back to it. Chad Sowash: And we saw a Rivian on the road the other day. That's a sexy vehicle. Chad Sowash: I'm biased. It's so sexy. [laughter] Chad Sowash: I got a second one on pre-order. I'm waiting for it. [laughter] Rameen Fattahi: I got a second one on pre-order. Joel Cheeseman: So, you're Tesla and then another opportunity comes along. Rameen Fattahi: Here's the truth. Three months into Tesla, the first recruiting event, I spearheaded it. It was my idea to have it right in the middle of the factory. I wanted all the tech folks, the software folks to come in... Chad Sowash: Called a Gigafactory. Rameen Fattahi: The middle of the factory. I think at that time it was called a Gigafactory. In Fremont, California, we had a recruiting event. It was exciting. But what happened for me was not something I could have ever imagined. It's a blip on my resume. You're really like, "oh, I got such a great CV." Yeah, if I explain the story, not if you just look at it, because there's two short stints on there that need explanation. Tesla, "Rameen, why were you there for three months?" "Oh, sorry about that. This is a really hard point in my life, actually, in my professional career, because I had to tell a mentor that I was gonna follow another mentor who wanted to double my scope." And so it was so... Chad Sowash: Why is that hard though? Because that explanation for you should be, "look, they have that much trust in me... " Okay, no, I get it. I get it. Yeah, no, it makes sense. Chad Sowash: The reason why it's so hard is I had committed to Tesla. I had committed to this leader. I was in the mix of projects that I felt like were impactful and important. In hindsight, leaving, they survived, they thrived, they did great. I was one of many, no problem. But at that moment, I really felt like we were doing something, we're on special, and I had an important person in my life say, "I wanna develop in on you." The problem that happened for me was one of my mentors from Apple went to be the head of recruiting at Huawei and gave me a call and said, "would like for you to lead people for the first time." I said, "you know what, Jen, I'm not prepared for that. I am not prepared for that. You should not hire me." Chad Sowash: I'm gonna say right now to have that kind of like inner scope of understanding. I mean, just like generally, any young man would say, "let's do it." Joel Cheeseman: Intellectual maturity. Rameen Fattahi: I don't know if it was intellectual maturity, gentlemen, or the fact that I was afraid to fail the people that would be on the team. Chad Sowash: Yeah, no, it is. That's the same thing. They're the exact same thing. Because generally, when we're that age, we're thinking more about ourselves than we are the actual team. And I mean, that's how corporate America works. Right? Rameen Fattahi: Absolutely. Yeah. Chad Sowash: So yeah, no, that's pretty awesome. Rameen Fattahi: In my story, I wanna say, bet on yourself, triple down. It's really exciting. So what happens next is I said, yes, it was super uncomfortable for me to say yes. I knew that me saying yes to one leader was me saying goodbye to another. Also, I don't know if you guys know this, but our industry is super tiny. So I move over to Huawei. I couldn't believe that I was reporting to this great person. I told her, "look, if I come there, you're on speed dial," like, "I'm gonna be talking to you every single day for the first few months until I get my feet under me." That was the truth. Eight months into this role. Here's where I get to blip number two on the CV. My leader walks in and goes, "I quit on the spot." I was like, "what?" I was like, "you're my mentor. You're my everything. I followed you. Like, what are you talking about?" She goes, "yeah. So like, in all honesty I think you should quit." I was like, "Oh, no." Chad Sowash: Could you have told me this before? Joel Cheeseman: Is this because of the political headwinds of Huawei, or? Rameen Fattahi: Oh, man. In practice in China, when you're going through a recruiting practice, it's very different from United States. But in China, what we found through our process, because we would hire people in the United States is that when they would be reviewed in China, there'd be a lot of questions about certain aspects of them, their family, who they are. There'd even be call-outs of like, "don't hire this person because they're from this nation." We are in that nation. And we know people from our own nation are shady. Via email, I'm like, "listen, you cannot send that to my inbox. That is not cool. And you need to change this. This is not okay. We don't operate like this." Chad Sowash: Yes. We know this Chinese family and we think that they are not appropriate to be a part of this family. Joel Cheeseman: They're a bad seed. Rameen Fattahi: Yes. So remember, I'm still developing my career. I'm out of my shoes. I didn't even feel comfortable being where I was at, but I was there I was leading, but I wasn't comfortable yet. So long story short, Jen walks away and here's one good thing for the CV because of the brands that I had worked at when I opened myself up to the entire Bay Area. And I fell in love with what Facebook was doing. They had a 25 person software team and they said, "we need to have a 250 person software recruiting team." I said, "are you serious?" I was like, "how many people are here?" And they're like 14,000. I said, "where do you wanna be? Let's call it two years." And they said 37,000. I come from that background. It felt natural to me. As much as maybe I question the product of Facebook, the ads, the data analytics behind it and how that operates and sends you really good stuff to generate more income, pull more cash out of you. Rameen Fattahi: But as much as I was there, there's a spirit and a life to the benefits. There's a spirit and a life to how Mark Zuckerberg cares about the people that work for him. Point blank, doctors on site, dentists on site, acupuncture on site. I had the best three and a half years. It was so fun. We got to start what felt like a, let's start from scratch. Let's develop this thing in an environment that was pure pipeline driven. So what software engineering recruiting does at Facebook and they just basically go after everyone at the same time. Once you are brought into the interview process, after you are hired your first six to eight weeks, you go through a special engineering onboarding where you select your team. So you go and you get to do a rotation with all available open teams at the whole company. And you end up deciding on who's gonna be your manager and who's gonna be your teammates over six to eight weeks. And I walked through the door and was like, "God, I love this. This is working for the 90%." Rameen Fattahi: But what about those nitty gritties? What about the compiler engineer? What about the programming language design? What about something that's super niche that when you tell 250 people, go get software engineers and get me the best ones in the world, they're gonna go out to Java, JavaScript, HTML, CSS, all that fun jazz. And so I pitched that we should consider rec-based hiring. And my boss pitched that. And we actually pulled that through. So we started this thing called specialty software recruiting. It was awesome. We worked with just niche roles. Compilers was one of them. And what we did was fill super senior roles or super specialized roles within the software environment. And this is where I was able to flex my client relationships, just that whole piece of it, because I was missing it for the first six, eight months at Facebook. Just, "okay, close candidates, train them for on-site interviews." I can do that every day. But what I really appreciated was the relationship piece and helping drive an organization that says, "I would like to be better," helping them to be better through people. So exciting experiences. This is where the story takes a turn. [laughter] Joel Cheeseman: This feels like an after-school special. Chad Sowash: It's a left turn. Joel Cheeseman: From the '80s, man. All right. So you're super happy at Facebook and then... Rameen Fattahi: Ooh. You ready? Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. [laughter] Rameen Fattahi: All right. Here we go. So... Joel Cheeseman: Back from commercial and the cliffhanger. Rameen Fattahi: Got a call on a Saturday and it was, "hey, I'm no longer on the Facebook team. And I really think you should come join Rivian. That project we worked on, I think you'd be great to come join Rivian." I was like, "what is Rivian?" This is June of 2019. It's embarrassing for me to say it now, but I had no idea. There wasn't all these funding rounds. Amazon had just invested. This wasn't a company that I knew about. And I was in the tech space. I told a buddy, I said, "hey, fuck off. I'm super happy... " Chad Sowash: How about no? Rameen Fattahi: I'm all taken care of. Chad Sowash: How about no? Rameen Fattahi: Feel like I have... Chad Sowash: "I don't know if you know or not, but I get massages and shit," right? Rameen Fattahi: I was like, "I got growth and development here. Bud, it took me three years to get the team and everyone around me in order. You want me to leave that to join this company? I don't know. I started everything from scratch. No." My wife came around the corner and she's super happy. She's like, "did you get a call?" I was just like, "yeah." So she was like, "you got a call?" I was like, "yeah." And she's like, "who was that?" I was like, "it's a company called Rivian. It was a buddy of mine from Facebook and kind of like a job opportunity. Of course, I have an interview." She's like, "well, what is it?" "Get into recruiting at the ground floor and build it from nothing." She's like, "it sounds like you." And I was like, "huh." So she busted out their Instagram and we both looked it through and we were like, "oh my goodness, that's sexy." Not just the products, but the direction of the company. I'm thinking about the world. I'm thinking about how we can make this a better place for others. Those were sentiments I was super excited about. Rameen Fattahi: And so, yeah, I can't lie. I called him back. I went, I interviewed, and it was the craziest experience joining Rivian to where we are, to where we were. Gentlemen, I joined a 700 person company on a 10 person team and talent acquisition. There was not one written process, nothing, not on a piece of paper, not an intranet. [laughter] I don't know how the career site was held together. Joel Cheeseman: How much had they raised by this point? Rameen Fattahi: Gosh, we were still, I believe under a billion. Chad Sowash: Under a billion. Joel Cheeseman: Wow, okay. Chad Sowash: I think we were under a billion. Joel Cheeseman: A mom and pop at the time. Chad Sowash: Yeah. Rameen Fattahi: If you think about how much capital it takes to really redefine... Chad Sowash: Oh, fuck yeah. Rameen Fattahi: Automotive, if you look back at our finance, you'll see there was billions, billions, especially we had one of the hottest IPOs. It was really exciting. Joel Cheeseman: You're at Rivian. You've left the perfect job at Facebook and the employee loving Mark Zuckerberg... Chad Sowash: They had no processes, no processes. Rameen Fattahi: When you join a company that's developing and it's scaling, I'll call it... Joel Cheeseman: How was your exit interview at Facebook? Rameen Fattahi: Your standard, most standard, absolutely what you would expect of a standard HR interview. Chad Sowash: You're very Zuckerberg. They had a hoodie on. You've been Zucked. Joel Cheeseman: You've been Zucked. [laughter] Rameen Fattahi: No, not like that. But just like, it's such an operationally driven environment that the HR member that jumped on, they had a script and they just walked through the script and we walked through in and out. Unfortunately for them, I had good experiences. So it wasn't always, I didn't have a bunch of things that I wanted them to fix and evolve. Joel Cheeseman: Positive experience, new opportunity. Chad Sowash: So fast forward, no processes at Rivian. You've had around a billion dollars funding. And what did the tech stack look like? I mean... [laughter] Joel Cheeseman: And how many hires did you have to make on the team? Rameen Fattahi: When you say the team, are you talking about funded recruitment... Joel Cheeseman: So you joined how many people and they had to grow to how many people? Rameen Fattahi: We joined at 700 people. Today we're floating around 15,000, 16,000 after reductions. Chad Sowash: Holy shit. I didn't realize you guys were that big. Rameen Fattahi: Yeah, we're pretty big. And that's only three and a half, a little more than three and a half years ago. Chad Sowash: Fuck. Rameen Fattahi: It's crazy. So about the tech stack, I think that where Rivian was at, at the time that I joined, did not allow the team to really utilize that original ATS and the original HRAS to what scale would look like. Because at that point, people were just indexing on speed. I'll be honest with you. The company was indexing on speed. How do we grow as fast as possible? Chad Sowash: That's a startup mentality. Rameen Fattahi: And it was exciting. So rewinding just a little bit, when I joined this company, you got to understand it was a little chaotic. I actually was scared a week before I joined. I was told, the head of HR is no longer here. And then I was told that the head of recruiting is no longer here. So I joined and I was in the lobby and the CEO walked up and he's like, "hey, Rameen." I was like, "oh my God, he knows my name." We did an interview together. I was a senior manager. Can you imagine the CEO of a 16,000 person company meeting a senior manager on their first two days? Joel Cheeseman: And he knew your name. Rameen Fattahi: He was waiting for me. Joel Cheeseman: Which speaks volumes to any employee. Rameen Fattahi: It was tremendous. I feel good about that because he's such a smart guy. Long story short, the team started from what seemed like nothing. In the first meeting with the team, I said, "does anyone have a written process? Anyone got any analytics here?" And this guy in the back goes, "oh, fuck. He's that guy." Chad Sowash: Yes, I am. Jesus Christ. [laughter] Rameen Fattahi: And that's what I said. With love, I said, "guys, I am that guy." And we have the opportunity to aim for world class. There's no such ending. You don't ever get there. You just continue to evolve. But we have the opportunity to build this whole thing from scratch. And guys, we're not gonna take that. That's an exciting thing. So... Joel Cheeseman: By the way, through this, there's a little thing called the pandemic going on. So talk about hiring during that. Rameen Fattahi: I remember vividly going to our CPO at the time and saying, "hey, the pandemic is coming. COVID is gonna hit." And she was like, "no way. I'm not sure if we need to rotate towards this." Sure enough, two days later, she calls me and goes, "so we're rotating towards this. This is a big deal. And we need to think about this." The reality is, is that we quickly moved into a remote interviewing environment. We were lucky. At that time, we weren't building vehicles yet. So we got to transcend into the pandemic while we were hyperscaling. I don't know how many people we were, but we were not large. So we developed in the pandemic. You expand with personnel. But that may not be during a pandemic, you're expanding with land and new office space. So it's been a tricky discussion about this whole return to work thing, which a lot of us are hearing today. But it's something that we're using a crawl, walk, run approach with. And we're really being thoughtful. Joel Cheeseman: I hate to bring... Rameen Fattahi: Please. Joel Cheeseman: Elon in the picture. So it's a competitor, Rivian, obviously. And Elon is really vocal about everyone back to the office. We have engineers and we're building cars. Even if you're in accounting, marketing, whatever, everyone's back to the office because our builders are there. What is Rivian's take on the work from home policies and everybody being back? Rameen Fattahi: There are certain roles where you're gonna have to be on site. Maybe you're on a hardware team. Maybe you're on the product development side, the design side, maybe you're in manufacturing. For all of those roles, we have what we call work arrangements. So we're thinking about the world is, are you on site? Are you flexible to come on site? Are you fully remote? As time is progressing, I'm seeing less full remote roles, more flexible roles where you come in one to three days a week, recommendation, but really you drive it through your leader as to what's appropriate for you and your organization. For instance, let's use talent acquisition. For the most part, recruiters need to have their client meetings. When there's an event, we need to go on site. When you wanna do an intake, go meet your client. You can even interview a candidate on site if you want to, but I wouldn't recommend it for the environment. I'd recommend you bring them in at the offer stage. Rameen Fattahi: So when you think about this, certain interviews will have to be on site, but they're not the majority. For us, we are not ready and we are not mandating for our entire workforce to come back in site. In fact, it's a heavily debated topic that I'm sure will progress and change over time, but where we're at right now, if I think about myself and my team, I can build your system from my house, my home office. I can build programs, workflows, tackle analytics. So really for me, it's about, are we presenting to somebody that needs me to be in that room? Do I need to go in on site to have a discussion about something that requires us to be on site for it to be faster? Otherwise, for the most part, my role can be done remote. I told my whole team, while we are all named Flex, you have the opportunity to come back in the office. Should you want to? You don't have to. Joel Cheeseman: Does recruiting against Tesla and maybe even poaching some of their employees, does the argument that, "hey, if you're a Tesla, you're in the office much more regularly than if you would come to Rivian, which were much more flexible." Is that a strategy that you are using? And if so, how effective has it been? Rameen Fattahi: You know what? I wouldn't say that we're directly thinking about that as a strategy. We're also not directly thinking about poaching from any specific environment. I wanna say this on the record, actually, because maybe people haven't heard this before, but at Rivian, myself included, and Rivian as a whole, we really appreciate Tesla. They trailblazed and created a market. There is enough room for all of us to compete. And even if that doesn't happen, from my CEO down, we are here to create the EV space. And doing that, you have to put a competition in there. And so whether we win or lose, the world wins. So we think of it as a big win. When I think about Tesla and people naturally assume, "oh man, you probably shit on Tesla all the time." I have a Tesla in my VOD, I was telling you. And I love it. In fact, I love my Rivian too. Rameen Fattahi: And I would say to somebody else, "when you're going to buy a car, and I tell my friends this all the time," this debate happens every single day about EVs and ICE, combustion engines, right? "Should I switch over?" "Oh, I'm scared about range anxiety." "Well, let me ask you this question. Are you gonna drive more than 300 miles a day? If you are not, you're not gonna see a gas station every week like you're seeing with your ICE car. So if you actually couple that over the entire year, the amount of time you spent with your engine, putting gas into it, at a pump, you probably spent more time at that pump than I did plugging my car in when I came home from work, walking into my house, and it automatically starting to charge at midnight." Rameen Fattahi: That's it. I wake up in the morning, oh wait, I'm trying to go to work. I literally have a little thing. It says, do you want that this time to have the climate at what? I'm like, yes, I do. Joel Cheeseman: How beneficial is it being an ESG friendly company? Do you find a lot of, I'm sure you're recruiting a lot from Chevy and traditional car companies, but we hear all the time that millennials, Gen Z, they wanna be part of a company that's doing better for the world. Is that a conversation that you have in your interviews? Rameen Fattahi: Without a doubt. It's almost like an infectious, exciting, addicting thing. You got the personality that wants to be where we're at in Rivian. You got to wanna scale. And going on that journey to scale, you got to wanna build. And that comes with a lot of, as easy as it was for me to earlier in the day to talk about where we've transcended from and where we are now in the speech here in the iCIMS, I didn't get a chance to talk about how hard was that journey in reality. You just get the tidbits. This is what we learned. But to get to a learning, sometimes it takes weeks. Sometimes it takes failing. Sometimes I've literally is, I have no feeling of being macho masculine in this life. At Rivian, before I had my vice president, who is my mentor, and it's just tremendous. I was working for our CPO. Joel Cheeseman: R2-D2 what? Rameen Fattahi: I was working for our chief people officer. Chad Sowash: Not... C-3PO. Joel Cheeseman: Oh, sorry. Rameen Fattahi: I was the interim head of talent before I became the director of recruiting ops and insights. And I actually told our chief people officer, I said, "you know what? I really want a strong mentor to be. I wanna work for someone that I wanna become." And unfortunately in this role, you shouldn't have me reporting to you because I'm too far away from what you need and the proficiency, but I wanna work for someone that can help me get there." She doubled down and was like, "Rameen, yeah, I'm in." She came back with my VP. It was tremendous. I have no problem saying that I have made my career following this woman. She's now a friend of mine and a mentor, but I made my career following the head of Apple, the head of Tesla, the head of Rivian. And if there's anything I can do to be more like her, I do. I tell her all the time, I was like, "wait." Joel Cheeseman: It's very cool. Very cool. So the flip side of the positive, I wanna go to the negative real quick. So Rivian stock year to date is down 20%. You're not alone. It's a problem that a lot of tech companies are facing. How does that play into challenges for recruiting? Is this a conversation? Obviously there's stock options. Talk about the, but the dip in stock price and how that impacts recruiting. Rameen Fattahi: So I think you remember we IPOed to something like 70 bucks. We went up to 170 within a matter of quickness. And then since then over the last months and year and some change, it fell, I think the landscape behind it fell. The economy changed. We changed from a economy where you can have a unicorn company that the aspirations would just pour them. People would pour money on the aspirations and where it could be. Chad Sowash: Money on the fire. Rameen Fattahi: And then we flipped into an economy, it's just finance driven. So we had one of the best IPOs of all time followed by one of the greatest falls. To answer your question about the difficulty of hiring. The reality is, is that everyone sees that. So when you're a tenured senior software engineer, principal, you look at the stock price and let's say you're at a major competitor or a high tech company, look at that and go, "man, I'm kind of worried about that." Yeah. Straight up tell the recruiter, "I'm worried about that." You're also battling in a recruiting market right now, no matter who you are, Rivian or anyone, you're battling the fact that people are reluctant to jump because job security right now means a lot. When you're seeing news every single day or your friend or your family member is telling you, "I was just affected. I was terminated. I was laid off." It creates a sense of fear. It creates a sense of people that have long tenures in companies to say, "you know what? It's safe for me here. I know people here. People know me. Maybe I have longevity." So we are experiencing that. Rameen Fattahi: The counter and the flip to this, that I tell the recruiters to think about as much as I can is, is that, it's also an opportunity, for that crazy person that still wants to build because we are not fully scaled. We still got to work some work to do. This is an opportunity from a development, a learning ability to hands-on, have a breath. That's there, multiple hats, that's for sure there. Develop your career, that's absolutely there. Okay. If you're so focused on finances, well, maybe this is the bottom. Maybe it's not the bottom. But let's just assume that maybe it could be the bottom or maybe close to the bottom. In that case, if I believe, and which I do, in our long term viability for this company, maybe they have a chance to flip that story to become an opportunity for them, not just from development, but some people cared a lot about finances and that's there too. Joel Cheeseman: So I'm gonna let you out on this. You presented before us. Thanks for warming the crowd up. Rameen Fattahi: Warming the crowd up. [laughter] Speaker 1: We appreciate that. You were really bullish on QR codes, which I think was the only mention of QR codes at the iCIMS Inspire conference. So I'm gonna give you a platform to opine on the values of the QR code. Rameen Fattahi: I appreciate it. So I was embarrassed and I said it when I called it out because everybody knows what a QR code is, but not everyone really utilizes it. And what I mean by that is let's say you're in a volume oriented environment, like a retail store call it Macy's. What if on every single time you went to go purchase, there was also a little ticker that said, "you wanna apply?"? A QR code? What if it's just said, "one information about what it's like to work here." Another QR code. Well, what if it said, "we have a hiring event or a happy hour, a brand awareness event"? What if it got you to a signup form? Which are so easy. It's nothing. I mean, the only thing that we're paying for these days is if you wanna custom build that QR code to also include your logo. Otherwise you can get a free QR code, almost like the Bitly. You can understand where are people scanning this from and you can push them to YouTube or Vimeo or a landing page or wherever you wanna put it. I mean, it's easy. Joel Cheeseman: And thanks to the pandemic, people know what it is now. Rameen Fattahi: Absolutely. And I think that over the next five years, less, I think that more people will be using QR codes here in the States. And what I experienced when I traveled overseas was just QR code everywhere. You can like, you pass a bus stop, there's a QR code. You went to a restaurant, it's a QR code. You want the menu, it's a QR code. You wanna pay, it's a QR code. They are really thinking about using QR codes overseas. And I think that for us, we have more opportunity. Chad Sowash: Yeah. We've been leaped from the QR code from Europe. Europe uses the QR codes for everything. And it's amazing. Over here, we're still trying to get tapped to pay to work. Joel Cheeseman: So if I go to a Rivian dealer, which I may do after this interview because I'm inspired to check out Rivian. Will I see QR codes in the showroom asking me about interested in jobs? Rameen Fattahi: Rivian doesn't have a dealership. We have one or two showrooms at this time where you can just come experience our products, our vehicles. You can experience the environment. You can get a full tour of the vehicle. But unfortunately, we don't have... Rameen Fattahi: That's what I call overhead and not overhead. Joel Cheeseman: Well, it's the Tesla model, but more or less for recruiting, you are leveraging QR codes, which is what I was sort of getting at there. Rameen Fattahi: Absolutely. For us in Rivian, I'm pushing for us to utilize it more. Right now, it's heavily used for events. Heavily used for events. I would like to see it in more spaces like service centers, delivery centers, places where we have high volume manufacturing. People walk up to the manufacturing facility to drop down for a resume. Joel Cheeseman: Well, what a wild, strange trip this interview has been. Rameen, thank you for joining us. Thank you for your transparency. And wow, I need a nap after that one. Chad, another one is in the can, live from San Diego, iCIMS Inspire. Rameen, for our listeners that wanna know more about you, or maybe wanna think about purchasing a Rivian, where would you send them? Chad Sowash: Ooh, I'd like that. Rameen Fattahi: You know what? I don't wanna be a brand ambassador here. I don't wanna get myself into any trouble. But what I would say is, feel free to reach out to me about LinkedIn on any matter. You'd be surprised. I do tend to respond. I really care. And I'm thinking about the community, not just what's going on within Rivian. So don't hesitate. Joel Cheeseman: That is Rameen Fattahi, everybody. And with that, Chad, another one is in the can. We out. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey, or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt. But save some soap, because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

Think you’re having a bad day? It’s probably not as bad as ZipRecruiter’s shareholders had this week. To say times are tough would be an understatement. But it’s not just Zip, as much of the space is having a pretty tough time on Wall Street and just about everywhere else. Dice. Recruit. All bad. Not dire enough? Want some more dogs-and-cats living together scenarios? Zoom employees are going back to the office (yeah, that Zoom), WeWork is more like WeOuttabiz, everyday Americans are beating up UberEats' rolling automated coolers, Elon is still loco, America doesn’t have enough semiconductor talent to support the Chips Act and fake women are becoming more popular than real women. Grab a bottle of your favorite whiskey for this one. Things are gettin' gettin', getting' kinda hectic. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HRs most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. [music] Joel: Oh, yeah. It's presidential joke day. Chad, what's Michelle Obama's favorite vegetable? Chad: I'm not going there. Joel: Broccoli. Get it? Broccoli. Okay, you're listening to the Chad and Cheese Podcast. This is your co-host, Joel Oppenheimer Cheeseman. Chad: And this is Chad Traveling Man Sowash. Joel: And on this week's show, Gem slashes, Zip crashes and WeWork more like we bankrupt. Am I right? [laughter] Joel: Let's do this. Chad: So bad. Joel: Nailed the intro. Yes. [laughter] Chad: Broccoli. Joel: Broccoli. Chad: That's much better than the other pads that I thought you were gonna go down. Vegetable presidents? Joel: Yeah. Chad: Ooh. [laughter] Joel: I didn't wanna go too far back, 'cause I know our audience, audience doesn't have that much historical perspective. Chad: Yes. Joel: But yeah. I thought I nailed it. I thought it was good. Chad: That was good. Joel: Good entry to the show. Good entry. Chad: I like it. I like it. I like it. Yes. Joel: So traveling man, you were in Portland? Chad: I was in Vancouver, which is just north on the other side of the river, Portland. So Washington, never been to Vancouver before, it's a pretty cool little town. I liked it. Right? Riverside area. Really cool. Joel: Not Canada. Chad: Not Canada. Joel: There's another... There's a poser Vancouver in America, apparently. [laughter] Chad: I didn't get to see Tyler Weeks though. I had, there was a Tyler Weeks sighting and dinnering. That was a good time. Joel: Dinnering? Chad: Yes. Joel: There was a dinnering with Ty. Nice. Chad: That's right. Oh yeah. Joel: Nice. Was he wearing his Chad and Cheese t-shirt? He's got the classic. He's got the OG t-shirts, which is cool. Chad: Well, he doesn't say he does, but the one that he had... That he wore on stage was the new one with the iCIMS event. Yeah. He's got a compliment, probably a full compliment of Chad and Cheese t-shirts. Joel: Yeah, that was pretty cool. Keynote stage with iCIMS. He's wearing a Chad and Cheese t-shirt. We haven't talked about the Barbenheimer phenom that is going on. Have you seen either of these movies? Do you have any... Chad: No. Joel: So I've seen Oppenheimer. Chad: Okay. Joel: I liked it before I even went to it. It's World War II. It's science, it's politics, it's all these things. So I won't ruin it for you but, I think... I haven't seen Barbie yet, but Oppenheimer I will definitely endorse and I think there's a little bit of a work... Chad: Sure. You haven't. Joel: Work spin on Oppenheimer. Part of it is Oppenheimer builds this bomb. Hopefully I'm not ruining it for everybody goes in the desert and they build this thing. So he recruits these scientists and he is gotta retain these scientists. And so I think there's a little spin on, your workplace should have a mission statement that's bigger than yourself. Right? And in this case, it was building a bomb to end the war. There's a scene in the movie where one of the science says, why should I get involved with this? And Matt Damon's character, who's a general says, "How about because it's the most important fucking thing in the history of the world?" [laughter] Joel: So you gotta have a mission as an employer. Number two, you gotta be worker-focused, Chad. And Oppenheimer built a city within the desert with a church, brought all the families out. They had holiday, drinks. And so he made sure the workers were as happy as possible, which is no small feat when you're in the desert. And the third thing, hopefully not spoiling it is diversity. There's a diversity play in the movie Oppenheimer. Chad: Really? Joel: Oppenheimer's talking to Matt Damon's character and basically says, the Germans are 18 months ahead of us in building a bomb. And Matt Damon says, basically, well, what chance do we have to catch up? And his reply is antisemitism, which was an interesting answer. And then Matt Damon says, what do you mean? He says, well, Hitler thinks that the bomb and atoms, splitting atoms is Jewish science and he doesn't really focus on it or spend much time on it. Being, embracing diversity, had Hitler embraced diversity we might all be speaking German, but because he was a racist son of a bitch, we are where we are today. So those three things I thought were nice work related. I wanted to highlight those for the show, Chad. Chad: Thats very nice. I'm gonna roll right into shout-outs because I'm gonna talk in about movies myself. Shout out to AI movies. This is from the MIT Review, The Frost, which is a 12-minute movie in which every shot is generated by image-making AI, is one of the most impressive and bizarre examples of this strange new genre. Waymark made The Frost to explore how generative AI could be built into its products. Why? Because the company makes video creation tools for businesses looking for a fast and cheap way to make commercials. Go figure. My critique, it's unnatural, it was very creepy. It felt like a moving comic book. So it wasn't like fully animated, really. It was incredibly interesting. But then I watched the behind the scenes video. Yes, 12 minutes and then another additional five minutes for research is what it was. So that video really gave me some great insight on the world of prompt engineering. Joel: So let me get this right. Basically videos that can be created on the fly that are meant to look as real as possible in the future. Do I have that right? Chad: Yes, yes. Movie making through AI generation. Joel: Totally where we're going. And that's why we have this whole actor strike and writer strike. Chad: Yeah. Joel: That's where the world's going. Like, people will be able to make movies without actors in the near future. Now the big stars we said will still be okay. But yeah, it's a weird future and it's kind of a hit to creativity, I guess. But it is the future and it's a nice book into the show. So keep listening kids. It might actually make sense even more so in the end. Well, I have a shout out too. S4: Shout out. Joel: All right, let's go to the Forbes Cloud 100, Chad. Forbes 8th Annual Cloud 100 list is the world's best private cloud computing companies. That's per Forbes, by the way, not me. Chad: Yes. Joel: And some companies in our space we're actually featured. These companies include it number 88 of the 100, Personio out of Germany. We talk about them quite a bit on the European show. Number 55, another European darling, HiBob comes in at number 55 and 54 right behind them is Rippling, who we talked about last week, and the new ATS. Go check that out if you haven't. Number 38 is Deel. That's D-E-E-L. Number 26, Gusto, and number 22, the highest rated company in our space and the Forbes Cloud 100 list is Checkr. That's right. Number 22, Checkr came in the highest. Shout out to all those Cloud 100 companies in our space. Chad: Very nice. Very nice. My next shout out is to Mattel and no not for the Barbie movie, but Mattel. Mattel says It is conducting a nationwide job search for a Chief UNO player. The toy company is hiring someone to promote the release of their new game, UNO Quatro. The Chief Uno player, will make $4,444 a week. Get it? Quatro, for 4 weeks to play UNO Quatro with strangers in New York City and create social media content featuring the new game. Probably the best $17,776 Mattel will ever spend on marketing. So shout out to Mattel and UNO Quatro. SFX: Shout out. Joel: All right, shout out to UNO Quatro. Little known fact. My 6-year-old loves playing UNO. Just little, just throw that out there. All right, my shout out goes to CareerBuilder. What show wouldn't be complete without CareerBuilder? So I got hit up on LinkedIn and somewhere in between the 382 automated messages about congrats on my new job, this person who will remain anonymous, commented the following, "Thought you might get a kick out of this crap. We have been a client since 2004, just keep that in mind. Think they have outsourced their sales reps since all of their other reps have apparently been laid off, and it seems like a recorded, canned message. Yes, it has come to this. CareerBuilder has no one left to turn off the lights." And here is that outbound sales call. Enjoy. Sonny: Hi, good morning. My name is Sonny. I am calling from CareerBuilder job site. I was calling to connect with you, see if you would be interested in using CareerBuilder for your staffing needs. If you do, please call me on my direct line, which is 773-389-7523. Repeat that, Sonny with CareerBuilder at 773-389-7523. Thank you. [laughter] Chad: Scripted much. Joel: The warmth I got from that script... Chad: Jesus. Joel: That he, that Sonny read. Chad: Sonny. Joel: That was lovely. CareerBuilder, it's been fun, man. Keep on giving that content gift every week. Chad: Ooh, Jeff Furman all by himself. Who knows what the hell he is doing in that big leather chair right now? Joel: Well, if you've been laid off by CareerBuilder and a lot of you out there have you might appreciate some free shit. Chad: Why not? Joel: Free shit from Chad and Cheese. Head out to chadcheese.com. Click the free link. We're talking free t-shirts from our friends at JobGet free beer from Aspen Tech Labs and jeez, free bourbon. How can it get better than that from the folks at Textkernel. And by the way, everybody wants to get out, the pandemic's over. Our friends at Abode are giving away a $250 gift card to Airbnb. Go wherever the hell you want in style. Thanks to our friends at Abode. Chad: Wouldn't happen to have birthdays, would you? Joel: Oh, it's funny. You should ask. SFX: Can you feel the tension in the air right now? I know I can. Joel: By the way... SFX: I can feel all the way down my clothes. Joel: This week is an extra Cheese edition of the birthdays. That's right. All right. Chad: Oh Jesus. Joel: Another year around the sun for a lot of our listeners, starting with Kevin Kirk Patrick and we have Bill Peterson. Peter Semando, Andrew Hyland, Patrick Morgan, Jason Putnam. Oh, Jason Side and Johnny Campbell, Carmen Hudson, Peter Clayton. What happened to that guy? Is he still around doing? He was the original like podcaster guy, yeah. And last on our list, but number 1 in our hearts, Abby Cheeseman celebrates her birthday. No relation. No relation to me, although she is married to a burly bearded man much like yours truly. So maybe there is some sort of a loose connection there. Happy birthday. SFX: Happy birthday. Chad: Happy birthday. Now it's time for events, powered by Shaker Recruitment Marketing kids. That's right. You see it. We are going to RecFest on September 13th in Nashville, where we are taking the disrupt stage all day to talk about recruiting and technology. And we're doing it with special guests, Lynn and Tracey from the Talent Rebelcast podcast and Canadians. SFX: No, God, please, no. Chad: Serge and Shelly from the Recruitment Flex podcast. It's the first time RecFest in the us. It's in Nashville. Then we're going to be virtual. We haven't done one of these in a while, Cheeseman. Joel: No. Chad: Gem's 2023 Virtual Talent Summit is happening September or on September 20th, where you and I will be joined by EEOC, Commissioner Sonderling, NYU Professor, PhD, Mona Sloane, and Brie Bastidas, head of technical Talent at Scale AI. We're gonna be talking about AI's ability to unlock recruiting efficiencies, the trials, tribulations, and reasons why or why not the recruitment community should embrace AI. Then, oh my god, HR Tech and Mandalay Bay in October, that's in Vegas. When the Expo hall opens, kids, we are going to be spending two days in the Fuel50 booth. And we like to really extend our appreciation to Fuel50 for allowing us to crash there while we drink, eat, probably make a mess, do some interviews. And enjoy the HR Tech show. So if you are going to be at HR Tech, come see Chad and Cheese at the Fuel50 booth. Then a few days later, Jesus, gonna be on a flight to Paris. Joel: Yep. Chad: Which I love. One of the staples in our industry, UNLEASH World in Paris, I have no clue what we're doing there yet. But we're gonna be there. I'm sure there'll be interviews, there'll be VIP parties, all that other fun stuff. Joel: Yeah. Yeah. Chad: For all of these events, one place you need to go chadcheese.com/events or just go to the website, click on events in the upper-right hand corner and register, register, register. SFX: All right. All right. All right. Joel: Chad, word has it, this is a rumor cardboard Chad may make it at least one appearance. [laughter] Joel: At least one appearance in one of those shows. Well, we'll just have to have to wait and see. [music] Chad: Topics. Joel: Oh boy. We haven't done one of these in a while. SFX: Layoffs. Joel: That's right. Layoffs. Oh boy. Layoffs are back on the podcast. Here we go. Guppy or Guppya South American Company laid off 8% of its workforce that totals 58 people better up 16% or 100 people. And Gem, who you mentioned in our shoutouts, the CEO stated that 70 employees out of the 356 listed on LinkedIn were laid off. But Lisa Schiller, a senior solutions consultant at Gem, said the layoffs affected 40%. So the math is a little bit fuzzy on this one. We don't have a confirmation on what percentage 70 is, but that's bad news for a unicorn that has raised upwards of 100 million dollars. Chad, any takeaways from the layoffs from this week? SFX: Layoffs. Chad: Reconfiguration, kids. That's what's gonna continue to happen. Then again, we're gonna see more M&A more fire sales. Not saying that these guys are up for sale or anything like that, but there's just a lot of turbulence in the market right now, and that happens when you're flushed with fucking cash for years. So this is something that was gonna happen. We saw it was gonna happen. Definitely, we're definitely feeling the ramifications of the repercussions for all that money. Joel: Yeah. If you can have a hangover from a pandemic, I'm not sure that you can, but this is sort of maybe the canary in the coal mine. We got a lot of unicorns from 2020 to 2022. These guys are one. If the deals, the remotes, the oysters, if they start talking about 40% chops in headcount, this is definitely a phase that is going to be ugly. And HR Tech may be a little smaller in booth size than last year. You might remember eight folds, 760 by 800 booth that they had last year. But yeah it's, times are tough. Money's not free anymore. These valuations are going to hell. Employees are getting cut. And just for me personally, I've probably know about five or six people in the last week in our industry that have either left or been cut, been fired. Chad: Most of them pretty senior. Joel: Yeah. It's hitting people that I know personally. So it's tough out there. [video playback] Joel: As things are at ZipRecruiter, Chad. Oh shit. Let's get into our first story. ZipRecruiter experienced significant drops in Q2 to '23 revenue and paying advertisers attributing the decline in their stock price to reduced hiring despite a strong US job market. The company withdrew its previous full year earnings guidance due to uncertain hiring trends leading to a 10% share price drop. The company expects a 34% decline in revenue and projects adjusted EBITDA of around 40 million for the upcoming quarter. Chad, your take on the news outta ZipRecruiter. Chad: So, I have three major problems with what ZipRecruiter's been doing. So first and foremost, market penetration and expansion. Zip's, inability to fully break into the enterprise market and then expand wallet share is a huge problem. Zip has been wallowing in the SMB market for far too long. Problem number two, they're being too fucking quiet on their press page. They're only two press releases for 2023. We're in August, two press releases. They're too quiet. Problem number three, it's the same old shit. When was the last time ZipRecruiter did anything to nudge the market with product? Can you remember when Zip upgraded, changed or even introduced a new product for hiring companies? Joel: I mean, their chat bot fill was so big. I feel like they could just coast for about a year on that one. Chad: Again, that was a product for job seekers, not for, employers that employers had to buy. So here's a quick summary. Live by the job posting, die by the job posting. If all of Zips eggs are in the job posting basket, how are they supposed to gain wallet share? Indeed is launching some really stupid shit, but hell, at least they're trying. So to me, it doesn't feel like Zip is even trying anymore. It's like they're laying down and they're ready to die. [music] Joel: Oh, man. That's what happens when you have headquarters in Santa Monica. The lure of the beach and the cool breeze just takes your eye off the ball. Yeah. Look, a couple things to say on this. Every stock, every public company, pretty much in our space right now is sideways or in the shitter. Zip is, Zip is there, Dice is there. But you can go down to like Robert Half, you can go to Recruit Holdings. Veritone who we talk about a lot getting in the space, their stock took a huge hit this past week. It wasn't necessarily the HR stuff, but people are hurting from a stock, stock value percentage or stock value perspective in our industry. And if the stock market is a leading indicator of what the economy's gonna do. So last October, about a year ago, the stock market took a shit that was a leading indicator on what the economy was gonna do. Joel: Well, the economy's job labor reports have been really strong, which has kind of helped keep things up. The Fed, as we know, continues to raise rates. They want to get unemployment up. They want to get, they wanna cool the economy, get inflation down. So from what I can tell, like people are still employed, but these reports and what's coming out of the public companies in our space tell me that there's another canary in the coal mine is that companies aren't posting jobs. Joel: So they may not be firing, they may not be laying off a lot of people, but they certainly don't look like they're hiring or replacing people that have left and what's going on. Now, it might be a good thing in terms of the Fed will get their unemployment rate. Inflation will come down, interest rates will come down, and that will obviously spark another phase of, of investment and money coming into the space. But I think this is a pretty glowing sign that things are gonna get a bit, get pretty rocky towards the end of the year in terms of employment. We're gonna see that employment rate go up. That is a prediction, Chad. And you know what they say about my predictions. SFX: 60% of the time, it works every time. Joel: Focusing on Zip for a second, ZipRecruiter had a lock on the seasonal hourly segment. And when they went public, they decided that they were gonna be everything to everybody. They were gonna be AI, they were gonna be enterprise, they were gonna be global. None of those things have come to pass. They launched this crazy chatbot fill. So there was a time where if you wanted a job at a restaurant, you wanted a job at a convenience store, a dry cleaner, you went to ZipRecruiter. 'Cause that was, you saw the commercials, it was small business. It was like that segment of the population. They had a lock on that brand and they chucked it, threw it down the toilet, and said, we're gonna be everything to everybody. We're AI, we're everything. Well, job seekers are now confused because, wait a minute, ZipRecruiter used to be this place where I could get a waiter job, and then employers are confused because the bar owner down the street is like, wait a minute, this isn't what I signed up for. Joel: So total confusion in the marketplace, they're nothing to nobody. Indeed is now taking their market share in terms of the SMBs, they launched their own ATS, so I think they're trying to get in that space. ZipRecruiter is in this no man's land where they had a lock on one brand. They threw that away. They can't be the enterprise thing. They should have just remained the hourly seasonal essential worker and grown that globally. They made a tremendous brand mistake, not on the level of Elon, Chuck and Twitter for X, but in the same vein, they took what they were in the market, tried to be something else, and I think they've totally failed. And I think the stock price exemplifies that. Chad: So I think you're right, in some areas too. They could have been SMB and enterprise at the same time, it's all about scale. Because there are enterprise companies that have essential workers. As a matter of fact, that should have been where they went. If we take a look at anybody who's doing high volume today, they're focusing not just on SMBs, they're mainly moving up to the enterprise side of the house. So they had an opportunity to stay who they were, right? In the high volume, in the essential worker side of the house, work for SMBs and work for enterprise. This to me is a huge issue with regard to execution, the AI piece that was all about how the tech worked, that to me, really doesn't have anything to do with anything other than just the rails that they're running on. Chad: The problem is they didn't get good enough penetration into the enterprise market where they can sell more goods and services. Right? That's really where they needed to be. They could have done sourcing screen, there could have been a ton of different things that they could have done, but it just seems like they, as you'd said, they're kind of all over the place. They could have laser focused and then built that brand even into enterprise, but they just didn't do it. So they're failing miserably, which is hard to see, to be quite frank. Joel: Yeah. So I'm gonna go deep here for a second. SFX: Just for two. Joel: So let's go way back in time, kid. So I used to work for a company we called Espan in the late '90s. Espan was known as the developer's job board. It was techies before techies, it was dice before dice. Our competition was OCC, where Chad worked Monster Board, career mosaic and some others. But they were more general in nature. We were like tech and we had a great brand with tech companies. We had a great brand with tech talent. And then Gordon Gund and NAS came in and said, we're gonna change the brand. We're gonna be everything to everybody. Espan is gone. We're job options, we're everything to everybody. And we didn't have a big enough gun to take on Monster board and some of the Super Bowl ads that were there at the time, and job seekers abandoned us. Joel: So they kinda left and went other places, companies that were tech that loved us and used us well the talent wasn't there anymore, they were confused about why we were doing it. They held us to a higher standard because now they're putting on their accounting jobs and everything, which we didn't do. So they weren't getting results there. It was a total mess. And long story short, couple years later, we sold for pennies on the dollar and I'm unemployed a year after that as a mass layoff at the company. So I speak from some experience that pivoting in that way, really fuck shit up. And I think ZipRecruiter in some manner has done a similar pivot that has been probably a disaster for them. Chad: Much like. Joel: Much like another disaster. That's right. Let's have some more tales of misery, shall we? S8: No, God. No, God, please. No. No. No. No. Joel: I know. All right, so first up, say it ain't so after mass layoffs in the first half of 2023, Zoom makes Jaws drop by requiring employees within 50 miles of an office to work in-person for at least two days a week, marking a shift from previous flexibility. Imagine that. Zoom flexible. Yeah. Everybody was on Zoom calls back during the pandemic. Chad, your take on Zoom's RTO announcement. Chad: Holy irony. Right? I think, I actually saw a article last week where they were talking about companies actually going back to the office to be able to downsize instead of layoff, right? So if you're forcing people back in and people want the autonomy well they're gonna leave. So instead of laying off and then having severance and all that other fun stuff, then you don't have to do that as much. So I think this might be one of the reasons why Zoom is doing it. They want to pare down, but they don't wanna lay off, because you've got the bad optics and whatnot. Not that this isn't bad optics, but how many examples have we had or heard of employees going back to the office just to be on Zoom calls. [laughter] Joel: Alone in an office on Zoom calls. Yeah. Chad: Yeah. But I wanna address an item that we've heard pop up in the press and on webinars and economic circles, that that item is productivity loss and associating it with remote work, worker autonomy is not the reason companies are losing productivity. Let me say that again. Worker autonomy is not the reason why companies are losing productivity, bad management, which leads to workers quitting. That churn leaves open positions. Those open positions represent lost productivity and lost revenue. The remaining team members cover the open positions, the daily workloads, they are spread too thin for months on end. And after those workers have had enough, they leave, which exacerbates the problem. So if we treat workers like kids they are gonna leave, and then the cycle starts. This is bad management; it's not treating your employees well, which makes them wanna leave, and productivity takes a shit. It has nothing to do with remote work. SFX: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Joel: Zoom is making employees come back to the office. The last company that should require people to come back is Zoom! And they're making people come back to the office. To me, this is like a major nail in the coffin of remote work. Maybe not tomorrow, maybe not next year, but long term, you're right, this is the boiling of the frog. This is the oh, 50 miles? Really? That's a distance. It had been like 30, and now it's almost doubled to 50 for most companies. So, yeah, it's a way to lay off people, very convenient that they don't want... It will eventually become four days a week, and maybe four is all it will come down to. But what's gonna happen is, people who do come back to the office they're gonna get promoted. They're gonna be having happy hours with other co-workers, and you're gonna feel guilty that you're not there. People will be there more often, and eventually, companies will get what they want, like they always do. They will get people back in the office. It's basically like the 80/20 rule, like everything else. There will be some start-ups, some companies that do have a 100% remote, but for the most part, our dreams of a remote workforce have been dashed by the man. [laughter] Chad: The way that we were raised, as exers by boomers, we were made to feel guilty if we weren't in early and we didn't leave after, right? These new generations are not that way. So, I think they're not going to feel guilty. And if they don't get promoted but yet they're living the lifestyle that they wanna live, they won't give a fuck. I think, there's a major change in the give-a-fuck, and there just isn't much of a give-a-fuck anymore, which I think is great because people need to live their fucking lives instead of sit in a goddamn cubicle all day or on the train, trying to fucking commute. Joel: Yeah, I think the jury's out on some of that. With young people, I have seen surveys like, some young people that live in a studio apartment want to get into an office. Now is it a cubicle, or is it an open space whatever? But some young people wanna get out. They wanna hang out with other young people after work. They wanna be mentored by older people like us. It's kinda crazy, but anyway, Zoom is out of the remote work business. It's very sad. Well, from one former pandemic darling to another, let's go to WeWork! WeWork's second-quarter earnings report costs, "Substantial doubt on its survival due to losses and departing clients. Despite plans to enhance liquidity and profitability, the co-working giant's stock plummeted almost 40% this week, underscoring its tumultuous journey from a high valuation to potential collapse." Chad, WeWork to we outta business. Your take? Chad: How is WeWork not fucking killing the game right now? I mean, all of this real estate that's open. WeWork should actually take the position as the middle ground by driving hybrid and more flexible options for work. They just need to get into some big brands involved from a national and also global scale. To me, this is a go-to-market issue, where they're not really seeing the forest for the trees. This, to me, just blows my fucking brain. If they were going to work, it should work right now. If it's not working right now, they just need to fucking eject. Joel: Yeah. It's kinda like a trucking company that goes out of business when trucking is more popular than ever. Who didn't talk about yellow trucking? Yes, you're right. I get that they signed leases on these properties, but commercial real estate owners were more than flexible to keep you in the office, keep you in the space, keep you occupied. This is either awful management, like you said, go-to-market, someone should had called Airbnb and said, hey, let's do like a work Airbnb collaboration... Chad: Something. Joel: Or Verbo. There had to be some sort of platform that they could get in there. Yeah, I don't know if this is the weight of just the business and the expectations, the investment money, but this is a total disaster. You're right, this is like, if anyone should be successful right now, it's the WeWorks of the world. But here we are talking about their demise. And somebody will pick this up on pennies on the dollar and hopefully bring in some good management, some cost efficiencies, and launch this thing back, rises from the inferno, like the phoenix. But only time will tell what happens there. Let's take a quick break and talk about chips, not the Southern California police force from the '70s. [chuckle] Chad: This would be a great place for that opening intro for Chips. Joel: Yeah, it would be, it would be... Chad: Erik Estrada. Joel: Remember the take-off Chips? They made a joke... [chuckle] Joel: The chimpanzee were on the motorcycle? Chad: Yes. The bikes. Joel: Anyway, all right. Let's talk about chips. A labor shortage is slowing US semiconductor companies efforts to fill critical positions, with Hiring taking twice as long as in other sectors. The industry's struggle to find skilled labor could hinder President Biden's push to boost the domestic chip industry and create jobs with projections of 115,000 new jobs by 2030. The sector faces challenges in finding candidates with science, technology, and engineering backgrounds. Wait, wait. Government didn't think this through. I'm shocked. Chad, what are your thoughts on a lack of talent in the chip sector in the US? Chad: Is it the government's responsibility to make sure that we have all those people ready for those jobs? It sounds like big government you're looking for. Here's an excerpt from the Fortune article that just stuck with me. So chip makers have long sounded the alarm, US doesn't have enough job candidates, right? So my brain automatically went to high school sports. Some of the biggest sports brands like Nike, Adidas, Under Armour and others, they equip high schools and athletes with uniforms, cleats, they buy scoreboards, sometimes outfit the entire court, field or stadium. You know what I'm talking about, right? Why aren't companies like Intel, AMD, Nvidia and many others, equipping middle schools, high school, classrooms and labs? Why aren't they deep inside of communities, schools, community colleges, selling the dream of engineering? Why aren't they doing this? This is not a government problem. These companies need to be focused on what they need to make and drive revenue. Why aren't they fucking doing this? Joel: They should be doing it and should've been doing it. But the problem is we have a challenge now. We have a China problem now. We have global economic issues today, and we should have been thinking about this 20 years ago, 10 years ago at least, obviously nobody was. Now, Taiwan, as most people know, is the breadbasket of the semiconductor chip business. And companies are actually relocating Taiwanese workers into Montana and North Dakota and some of these other places where these chip factories are being established. So we've gotta go poach from other countries. Longer term, we should definitely be talking about stability in this industry, colleges should be pounding the table. There should be some maybe subsidies for people who get these degrees or at least instant jobs by companies saying, "Hey, go get this degree and do that." Now, what we've additionally done, I don't know if you caught this or not this past week, the Biden administration announced a $345 million weapons package to go to Taiwan. Joel: The first tranche in a total of one billion the US has allotted to be transferred directly from the Pentagon stockpiles to the island this year. So the reaction to not having enough talent is also, let's arm up Taiwan, to make sure that Taiwan remains a stable supplier of chips in the near future. Because if China takes the real estate, then it's game over. So like, "Let's ship some weapons and let's fortify Taiwan." So hopefully long-term we're thinking about the talent to do these jobs in the future. But for now it looks like, let's poach from Taiwan and other places and let's fortify Taiwan to keep China at bay. Chad: So Intel said they're gonna spend $17.7 million in Ohio, which is where one of these manufacturing facilities are going. Intel's revenue is $63 billion a year. So that's 0.03% of Intel's annual revenues. That's not an investment, that's fucking crumbs. Talent is the only thing that will make those revenue numbers grow. And talent acquisition, listen up TA pros, you need to stiffen your fucking spine. See this as an opportunity to talk about driving revenue through building real talent pipelines and not bullshit photo ops. That's what this is. They're pledging like a million dollars to like 15 different universities in Ohio. It's fucking photo op, that's crumbs, that's not enough. You need to have an investment, and you need to get into those communities ASAP. Joel: Yep. Chad: Not to mention TA Folk, it's taking forever for people to get through your application process. I remember talking to Allyn Bailey when she was at Intel. And she was like, well. A part of it was funding. You have to re-streamline your process with the market. They don't have the cash. You need to go back to the business with your need and show them that if we don't get these positions filled, we're not gonna make the cash. Joel: By the way, the stories about fraud and misuse of funds that the government is giving these companies is just starting. It's just kind of a bummer. All right, Chad, AI is still in the news, imagine that. We got a lot of headlines. I'm gonna read through some of them and you're gonna give me your take on what stood out to you the most. Let's start with TechCrunch writing an article entitled The Future of AI is Video, And It's Coming At Us Fast. The story outlined what a mess the 2024 election is going to be. Joel: HR Executive Magazine wrote a story entitled Seven AI Considerations HR Leaders Need To Think About Today featuring Chad and Cheese super fan Andrea Wade enforcing the importance of humans being in the process. Hacker News says Zoom's AI can now train its AI with user content, but you can't opt out of the process. Sorry about that. Reuters asks whether AI will be a blessing or a curse for the economy. People are beating the shit and molesting Uber Eats automated food delivery bots. And here's Chad's favorite, Elon Musk now owns ai.com. Chad, what stood out most to you this week in AI news? Chad: So, when Domino's, I think, they were the first companies that actually said they're gonna have these AI delivery bots, I called it back then. I think it was even Walmart, with the ones that were in the aisles. Joel: The janitors? [laughter] Chad: People were going to start taking fucking ball bats to these things. They're gonna flip them over, they're gonna do whatever they could to fuck with these things. Now we're saying that's exactly what's happening. Whether they like AI robots or not, doesn't matter, people are fucking stupid. Just the way it is. One of the really cool... I'm gonna paraphrase items in one of the articles, is that they likened AI to dynamite. And dynamite is either used to blow a hole in a mountain to create streamlined infrastructure or as a weapon, but there are regulations around dynamite, right? And there's not regulations around AI. Joel: You can't download it on your computer. Chad: Yeah. And the biggest issue here that I see is shareholder capitalism. Its focus is completely on reward and not risks. It's a move fast, generate revenue and break society model. The internet was created by the US government with our tax dollars, and yet companies like Amazon who leverage the internet with e-commerce sales and AWS, skirt taxes, create billionaires like Jeff Bezos who build super yachts and launch penis rockets, but they're not building a strong middle class and paying it back. Our biggest issue that we're having right now is that we are not moving fast enough on the regulatory side of the house to ensure that we have the guardrails in place, but we need to move. We can't allow, let's say for instance, a six-month pause to happen. We just can't do that. We can't allow other countries to get ahead of us. So we need guardrails and we need them quick. The Elon Musk thing... [chuckle] Chad: This to me is the funniest thing ever. I believe we're experiencing one of the most public ADHD moments in world history as we watch Elon Musk play with Twitter, now X. Get into generative AI game, propose dick measuring contests with Zuck. [laughter] Chad: And then getting fined by federal government for not complying with federal subpoenas. He is all over the place, probably one of the smartest guys in the world today, right? Hate him, hate him, hate him but he's all over the place. This is a squirrel moment for Elon Musk. [laughter] SFX: That escalated quickly. Joel: All right. We didn't have this in the notes, but the Octagon Zuckerberg versus Musk fight on X, would you watch that for free? Chad: Oh, well, yeah, I definitely would. Joel: At what price point would you pay to see it live? Chad: Oh, I would... It would be free somewhere. I'd be able to get it somewhere. [laughter] Joel: I hope this happens. Chad: Because those assholes would make money off of it and I'm not paying 'em. Joel: Oh well, they said it's going to charity for veterans. No... Chad: Oh fuck that, that's full of shit. Joel: That is to me, if that happens, that is peak douche bag for tech. That is like, it's only downhill from here. So I'm glad you brought up Zuckerberg, 'cause I'd forgotten about the Octagon match. Oh my God. Dude, these poor Uber Eats. I call them mobile coolers. Chad: Oh, god. Joel: I mean thank God for TikTok. I've talked for an end to TikTok, but this makes TikTok worthwhile. [laughter] Joel: What the homeless and just the riffraff and knuckleheads are doing to these coolers is almost pornographic. Like how these are built is, I guess it's closed and you have a QR code or something with your phone. And then you can open it and get your sandwich and you're done. Well, people are like, fuck it, I'm hungry. They like, open the thing. This alarm goes off, which nobody cares about. It's like, whoop, whoop. And they just... They're eating the sandwich while the alarm is going off. People are riding these things in the streets. I don't know how they're steering them, but it's so bizarre. I don't know what the future is of these things. I don't know if it's just like, it's gonna be only in really high rent districts where people aren't gonna do stuff. If there's... Are they gonna criminalize this where, face recognition and they turn you into the cop. I don't know what's gonna happen. Chad: Yeah. Joel: I like the idea of my Chipotle rolling up on the driveway, but I don't know if there's a future for these mobile coolers of food. I think the TechCrunch article about video and the campaign is even scarier than when I first commented about this a week or so ago. Chad: Creepy as fuck, man. Joel: What we're gonna see out of deep fakes of Putin and She and overseas and what's in the election. Chad: Yeah. Joel: No one's gonna know what's real, what's fake. There's no government regulation anywhere, there's no tech guardrails that I see anywhere. It's gonna be the Wild West this election. And God help us if democracy breaks and we fall into the abyss, 'cause if it's gonna happen, it's probably gonna happen in 2024. The seven considerations... Chad: Fuck. Joel: Of HR leaders shows me HR knows nothing about what's coming, it was such... It was sort of like an SEO article from 'O5 about how to write a title tag. [laughter] Joel: And that was gonna save your website. So anyway, this show's been a total bummer and this didn't help it at all for the most part. AI is crazy. People are crazy. And mixing the two together is a recipe for disaster. Chad: But after the break, we've got something that's gonna be even more creepy, but fun. SFX: What are you doing, step bro? Joel: All right, Chad, I don't know if this is good news or bad news, you decide listener. All right, Mila, or is it Mila? We'll call her Mila. Mila Sophia says she's a 24-year-old robot girl living in Helsinki, but she's actually an AI generated influencer with a substantial following on Twitter and TikTok. She has almost 60,000 followers on Instagram. Despite being entirely virtual or fake. Her photos attract likes and admiration from thousands, tens of thousands of fans oblivious to her non-existence. She posts pictures portraying various roles from a bikini clad model to, get this, a construction worker. Her digital existence raises so many questions from me, Chad. What do you got on Mila Sophia? Chad: Yeah, it's interesting that nerdy white dudes are creating hot chicks on the internet and making money off them, we've totally come full circle on this podcast. We started off with talking about AI generated movies. All I can say is it's surreal, in 1855, P.T Barnum said, "There's a sucker born every minute." And with AI and deepfakes and clones, it's gonna be very hard to distinguish between all of us who are the suckers and who aren't. Joel: So Chad, you and I have been debating an Instagram presence for a while. I think this is our shot. I think we do a virtual Chad and Cheese. Maybe we're horseback, on sunset on the beach, maybe we're in shop class or doing some crafts. Chad: Shop class. Joel: At hobby lobby. Chad: Ooh. We do the ghost molding of the clay. Joel: They say it's totally open. We can do whatever the hell we want. So, one of my favorite movies particularly from the '80s, is Risky Business. Chad: Yes. Joel: And in Risky Business, Tom Cruise's friend Booger from Revenge of the Nerds. Chad: Yeah. Joel: But that's a different movie, Chad knows what I'm talking about. Most of our listeners probably do too. Booger gets him a hooker that wasn't what Tom expected, let's put it that way. So the hooker that shows up realizes that Tom isn't into her. So she gives him the name of a woman named Lana. And her quote is, "I'm gonna give you a number, Joel," that's one of the reasons why it's my favorite movie. His character's name is Joel. But anyway, she says, "Joel, I want you to call Lana, it's what you want. It's what every white boy off the lake wants," which is one of the great lines of '80s movie nostalgia. So here's my takeaway from this. OnlyFans is done. Not tomorrow, not next week, but eventually. Digital girls are starting to look like the real thing. They're starting to talk like the real thing. And with the right apparatus, Chad, they will do everything every dude on the planet wants. Just like Lana. It'll be a subscription model for all the kinky, freaky, illegal in 28 states shit that all of our demented listeners want in a woman. Even if it's not real. We out. Chad: We out. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell. Enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey, or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckle heads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back, like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We're out.

Live from UNLEASH America in the Workhuman booth, Shannon Pritchett, head of marketing and community at HireEZ, joins the boys for a conversation covering the state of sourcing, how HireEZ is embracing ChatGPT and other AI technologies around recruiting and how disruption is set to be business as usual throughout our industry. TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps companies strengthen their workforce and broaden their market reach by hiring talent in the disability community. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HRs most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Here we go, kids. We are live at the UNLEASH America Conference in Las Vegas, Nevada from the Work Human Booth. And we are just giddy that Shannon Pritchett, head of Marketing and Community at hireEZ has joined us today. Shannon, welcome to the podcast. Shannon Pritchett: Thank you. Chad: You've got your comfy shoes on too. Shannon Pritchett: Yes. And for the record, I didn't pay for this. Joel: She just had knee surgery, so of course she's comfy. [laughter] Shannon Pritchett: I know. I just had knee surgery two weeks ago and I'm starting the conference in Air Force 1s or stomping in my Air Force 1s. Chad: Well, I love it. Shannon Pritchett: Yeah. Joel: Nothing wrong with Air Force 1s. Chad: What did you have done to the knee? Shannon Pritchett: Okay. So I thought I was a runner. If you go to my Twitter profile, it'll say, "Pretend runner." Chad: Yes. Shannon Pritchett: Yes. But actually I am a runner, 'Cause like I run, I'm slow. [laughter] Joel: Are we talking marathons? Are we talking minis? What are we talking about? Shannon Pritchett: I did a marathon once and I learned something with that marathon. Right? Joel: And what did you learn? Yeah. Shannon Pritchett: Never to do it again. Chad: Yeah. Shannon Pritchett: Yeah. No. So I... Chad: You know a guy died during... They named... Shannon Pritchett: Lots of guys died doing marathons. Yeah. A part of me died. [laughter] Shannon Pritchett: My knee died. No, it's a... I wasn't running a marathon. I just, I hurt it running and it turns out I tore my meniscus. Chad: Ah. Shannon Pritchett: And then I developed a bunch of cysts on my ACL. Chad: Ouch. Shannon Pritchett: So they went in there and removed it and... Joel: Oh. Yikes. Chad: That's a pretty... I had my meniscus cleaned out and literally I walked out of the hospital. They... Shannon Pritchett: Yeah, that's what I did too. Yes. Chad: They took me to the edge. In a little, in a little wheelchair. And they stopped. And I'm like, can you gonna take me to the car? They're like, "You're good" [laughter] Shannon Pritchett: It's amazing. Yes. No. So, okay. So I had it on the day of SourceCon in Dallas. And then I was, I was home by like 10:00 AM, I pitch black the room, turn on the sound machine, put on my eye mask, some Marvin Gaye, some earplugs. Chad: Oh, yeah. Shannon Pritchett: That all makes sense. But I'm trying to set the stage here. And then my mom comes to the door like two hours later and she's like, "Your friends are here." I was like, "I don't have any friends mom." And she's thinking I'm still on medicated. And she's like, "No, no, no, your friend... " I was like, "Oh, SourceCon." I got up to go to the door and it was like, Dean DeCosta, Steve Levy, Ronnie Ratcher, those guys. And I was like, "Oh, I can walk. It's a miracle." But that was like two hours after surgery. So everyone's like, "How are you here after knee surgery?" I'm like, "I have a damn good surgeon." Joel: So, what's this current state of SourceCon these days? I haven't been in a while. Shannon Pritchett: Yeah. The community kind of fell apart during the pandemic. Yeah, live events was their focus. I'll tell you what, they have a new editor named Meg. She's amazing. I really think she's gonna bring it back to life. But I think they kind of lost their focus a little bit. But I'm excited to see the spark back. So hopefully, it revives itself and I think it will. Chad: Cool. Shannon Pritchett: Yeah. Joel: So you presented today? Shannon Pritchett: Yes. Yes. Joel: Tell us about what you discussed. Shannon Pritchett: No, that I did pay for, but... [laughter] Shannon Pritchett: So we had a product announcement, and so the main message, I had a couple of main messages. One, sourcing is dead. Joel: Let's put a pin in that. Shannon Pritchett: As we're talking about the revitalization of SourceCon. Chad: We'll go back to that. Carry on. Carry on. Shannon Pritchett: Second. Everyone hates outbound recruiting. The category we created. Okay. Chad: Everybody hates doing it. Shannon Pritchett: Hates doing it. Chad: Yes, yes. Shannon Pritchett: Yes. TA leaders love it. [laughter] Shannon Pritchett: And as you know, we were the first to do this 'cause I'm in marketing. Chad: They love cracking the whip to make people do shit that they don't like doing. Shannon Pritchett: Exactly. Chad: Yes. Shannon Pritchett: Well, I have this analogy. Okay. Chad: Okay. Shannon Pritchett: So Joel, you just woke up, you need some coffee? I'm gonna give you a cup of coffee. Joel: Yep. Shannon Pritchett: Or, you know you're not really gonna like this shitty cup of coffee I'm giving you, I can cuss on Chad and Cheese. Right? I've heard your podcast before. Joel: Oh, you can do that. Chad: Fuck. Yes. Shannon Pritchett: Yes. Okay. Thank you. Or you can wait two months for that cup of coffee and you can go get the best damn cup of coffee you want, but you have to wait two months. What are you gonna choose? Joel: Coffee now. Shannon Pritchett: Coffee now. Joel: Yep. Shannon Pritchett: Right. That's inbound versus outbound. Sometimes the best one takes a little longer to get, it's a little harder to get and you have to go without that for awhile. Joel: And there's a reason for that. There's a reason for that. Shannon Pritchett: There's a reason. Yes. So that's where we come in. We're trying to make that whole process easy. So that recruiters can actually concentrate on things that they gave up a million years ago. Like talking to people, engaging people. So setting expectations, all that stuff. So that's the problem with outbound recruiting it's like, recruiters don't like to do it, but we're trying to make it easy for them. We are on our way there, not there yet. And our latest announcement with GPT integration, really helps that. Joel: Look at her lead the witness. I love it. She must be in marketing. [laughter] Shannon Pritchett: I know. So what we do with this is, we are the first... Chad: She is the witness. She's leading herself. Joel: She's like raising canes that's like, "Yes. If you try our new vet sauce and salad." Yeah. [laughter] Shannon Pritchett: Welcome to the Shannon Pritchett podcast. Joel: Yes. [laughter] Shannon Pritchett: Are you Shannon? Joel: Carry on please. Shannon Pritchett: So with this integration is once you've you identified candidates and you go to the engagement stage in our product, we have all the nurture sequence emails already pre-constructed based on the job description. So you have three options. One, roll with the automation. Two, my recommendation, customize it, personalize it a little bit. Or three, just scratch it and write it your own. But it takes an hour to write an email as we are learning... A good email and recruiters just don't have that time. Nor was anyone trained on how to write an email. Chad: That's the biggest point is that they're not trained to be marketers, to be able to get that nice, easy, concise message. Bulleted or whatever it might be. Yeah. So we expect everybody to be fucking experts. Shannon Pritchett: Yes. Chad: To do all this shit and we are just not. Joel: Yeah. Shannon Pritchett: I pay someone a lot of money to do email marketing for us, and she's amazing. But there's an art that goes into that, A/B testing, analytics, multiple systems that she's in. Different buyer stages, awareness campaigns like announcements. There's a... The amount of work this one person does on my team, it's... She's probably underpaid, but the recruiters don't have that, right? Chad: No. Shannon Pritchett: But marketing does. Chad: No. Yeah. So how did you integrate ChatGPT? How is that actually useful for these recruiters? Is it writing messages? Joel: And were you the first? Shannon Pritchett: We were the first. Chad: Oh, [laughter] that's leading the witness. [laughter] Shannon Pritchett: The first. Joel: 'ause we've got about 12 press releases... Chad: Facts. Joel: That say they're the first. [laughter] Joel: We wanna clear this up right now. Shannon Pritchett: By the way... Chad: We wanna clear this up. [laughter] Shannon Pritchett: You forgot to announce this at the beginning of the podcast, but anytime you hear the word first, you have to take a drink. So, yes. [laughter] Chad: We have bourbon. Unfortunately, we're not allowed to open it in this fucking place. Joel: Yeah. Vegas is a very... Shannon Pritchett: As everyone walks around with champagne. Joel: Vegas is so conservative. We can't just bust out some makers. Chad: Let me... Shannon Pritchett: I purchased it from Caesars. Chad: Let me take this gummy. Yeah. Shannon Pritchett: I got this in your gift shop. [laughter] Yeah. Light a joint, fine, do not open that tequila. Chad: Yeah, don't do that. Joel: Don't you do that? Shannon Pritchett: No. So, okay. First off, I work with smart people, I'm not an AI engineer, obviously. So we've been actually working on this integration for a while. GPT was completely new to me when it came out this year. I wasn't following the trends but our team has been working for years on it. And so with the latest GPT-3 announcement that finally made our version ready, we refined it to use recruiter specific language that made sense. So for example, you cannot go into ChatGPT, type out, "can you write this email for a candidate?" And then they will be completely different. So that's the difference between the two. So is there one GPT better than the other? Maybe. But as long as they're different, that's exactly what we need. Right? We can't have the same script over and over and over again, that's actually my biggest fear. Joel: Just to be clear, this was not integrating ChatGPT. This is a little bit of homemade stuff that you guys came up with on your own. Shannon Pritchett: Using their technology. Joel: It's been years in development. Because some people say like, well ChatGPT came out in November, how could it be years? This is your own little secret sauce if you will. Chad: Secret sauce. Shannon Pritchett: Well, see again, if we had like really smart people here, they'd tell you, oh, it's actually just different iterations and versions and stuff like that they kind of were tweaking and customizing. Joel: So, they've been using... They've been dealing with OpenAI. Shannon Pritchett: OpenAI, refining it. Joel: During this... Shannon Pritchett: Yes. Thank you for that buzzword 'cause... Joel: There it is. Shannon Pritchett: Yeah. Now that we talk about tequila and Maker's Mark, that's where my mind is going. [laughter] Chad: Shot, shot, shot [laughter] Joel: So, you speak... [laughter] Joel: You speak fast. I wanna go over this again. So I'm using hireEZ to source candidates. I can click a button that will then start communicating messages via email, texts. Shannon Pritchett: Don't have text yet. Joel: Email. Okay. Email. Shannon Pritchett: It's coming. Joel: And not InMail, just email. [laughter] Shannon Pritchett: Not InMail at all. Joel: Right? Okay. Shannon Pritchett: Yeah. Joel: Via Email. And these are all automated. So, "Hey, how you doing?" And if there's a reply, then another automated message goes out. Shannon Pritchett: No. Joel: No. What? No, just the initial connection. Shannon Pritchett: Once there's a reply, and not another office reply, an actual reply, then the sequence stops and you start engaging with them. Chad: Gotcha. Shannon Pritchett: So how the whole product works, by the way, you just upload a job description. The AI takes over immediately. You can refine it with our filters and stuff like that. You select which candidates you want, our machine starts learning from you, right? Joel: Yep. Shannon Pritchett: Then once you've identified candidates and you put them into a project, you move that over to the engagement side, you should be synced to your email box. Shannon Pritchett: Yep. Joel: So everything's running from your Email. So it's not like an in email where you copy and paste, go candidate after candidate after candidate, you know? Joel: Yep. Shannon Pritchett: Hi Chad. I'm not Chad, I'm Joel but thank you. Right? No, everything is customized already for, and then once the sequence breaks and they respond, and then it's you engaging the candidate. So what the candidate sees is a well sequenced email with the greatest language they've ever seen in their entire lives. Chad: The most magnificent prose that they've ever seen. Shannon Pritchett: Yes, I know. And they know. Joel: First. Shannon Pritchett: Like this was the first. Joel: The first [laughter] Shannon Pritchett: No. And so it stops from there. So the candidate has no idea, no idea. Chad: If they don't reply, another little tickle will go out. Shannon Pritchett: As many sequences as you wanna set. Chad: Okay. Shannon Pritchett: So, but if you do like 30, then you're kind of a stalker. Chad: Kind of a douche if you're doing 30. Shannon Pritchett: Yeah. A douche [laughter] Joel: So how long is it gonna take for you guys to go down funnel to start doing this for individuals who have already applied? Because we have a black hole issue. Chad: Yeah. Joel: And that's a recruiter problem because the recruiters don't have enough time, so therefore, how do we aid the recruiters not just on the front end, but also starting to go through the funnel. And if you have the tech, why the hell not? Shannon Pritchett: It's not in the roadmap yet. We're still concentrating on top of the funnel but we eventually want to start evolving into that space over time. But right where we're headed in the roadmap is more automation, more better reporting. Hopefully, text message capabilities. So that's what we'd like to concentrate on within the next six months. But yeah, that's more of an inbound tactic and we just really wanna stick with the category we created outbound. Joel: Did she say, hopefully SMS? She's usually so confident. Shannon Pritchett: I know. Joel: I just, I'm surprised to hear hopefully. Shannon Pritchett: There's so much compliance and rules with text messaging. It's like... Joel: There are. Shannon Pritchett: And to be honest, I don't think our database, and I'm speaking like a CTO now is... We need more phone numbers to see the success. Chad: Well, you need to start asking for them. Shannon Pritchett: Exactly. We don't wanna... We don't want people paying for it, not like you would pay for it or anything like that until we're absolutely certain it's gonna work. So I think we have a few ways to go from R&D point of view on text messaging, but we're definitely working on it. Joel: Okay. So that was a trap you didn't fall into because I am sick and tired of companies, startups who aren't disciplined and they try to open up the TAM term whenever they can. Shannon Pritchett: Yes. Joel: And you guys, you just pretty much said that, no, we're not doing that. We're focusing... Shannon Pritchett: Well, we've learned the hard way [laughter] Joel: Well, yeah. We are going to be experts in our space. And the only way you can do that is focus and discipline. Shannon Pritchett: Yeah. And everything else, that's what partnerships and integrations are for. Joel: Yes. Shannon Pritchett: And so to us, if like we can concentrate on a couple of features to make the automation more better, what partners can we bring on to help us with the other things that are gonna improve the experience of using our product? So. Chad: More better. Shannon Pritchett: First. Joel: So the trend would go the opposite way on that. We're seeing conversational AI companies become ATSs. We're seeing people becoming, maybe something they shouldn't be, which I love. Does that trend help you guys? Do more customers expect you to be that? Like do people say, can't you just be my ATS and my onboarding solution and everything else? Shannon Pritchett: Yeah, we do get a lot of that. I had a whole hour conversation with someone... Chad: It's a trap. Shannon Pritchett: It is a trap, about that today. And first off, it is easy to develop an ATS and a CRM. It's very... The technology is not that difficult. Right? But do we really wanna go play in those fields? No. First off, I don't think we have the money. And second, like there's a lot of resources that go into that that we just typically don't have. Chad: Oh. Got it. Shannon Pritchett: So that's why we wanna stay in our lane. We didn't create this category to expand into other ones. And where I think we need to get better at is the better... We have integrations with just about every ATS, those can still be improved. So I'd rather have us focus on deeper integrations, more two-way integrations. Better API data as opposed to like, oh, let's just do it ourselves. Joel: Yeah. Shannon Pritchett: So we're still in that, we need to prove ourselves concept in the market, in my opinion. So. Joel: How do you deal with global customers? The language, obviously gets more complicated. How do you guys handle that? Shannon Pritchett: We definitely... So a lot of our customers are global, right? 'cause we're an enterprise product now. But we work best in English speaking countries by far. So we do have a lot of international candidates that do use ours, that know English. But our product is not catered to specific countries where... For example China. You know what I mean? You don't see a Chinese company using our product. So, well, we have one, but... [laughter] Joel: And why is that? Is there a reason? Is it privacy or. Shannon Pritchett: No. We're 100% GDPR compliant. We have governance in all the places where we need it. We have... Joel: But why go out of the US which is a huge pile of fucking cash. [laughter] Shannon Pritchett: That's it. Joel: You don't need to. Shannon Pritchett: We don't have the sales force to be honest, we don't. We have Salesforce, but we don't have the sales. Joel: Right. Chad: Personnel focus and discipline again. Shannon Pritchett: Yes. Shannon Pritchett: So, yeah. So, 85% of our revenue does come from within the US. And then I'd like to start looking at potentially moving or expanding to the UK to see how we can do with that country before we take on the rest of the globe. So we entertain companies that come to us, not a problem, but to me, our data needs to get better. And those countries and our other capabilities, like for example, does the UK audience care about the African American filter on our product? No. Are we gonna take that out for them? Not yet. So yeah, that's why we're focused predominantly on the US right now. But global teams do use our product in various countries. We know where we shine and we don't shine. Joel: So You mentioned something that might hopefully be in the future, SMS. What window into the future product roadmap can you take us on right now? Shannon Pritchett: So what we're working on is the ability for the recruiter to get back to the basics. Having like a normal conversation with a candidate. So we want to have more AI. Like our mission is outbound recruiting made easy. The vision is jobs to find people, right? So when you get laid off, jobs should come to you, right? Not you are out there looking for jobs, that's our vision. So everything is focused on that and focus on making it easy, right? Easy is definitely our roadmap. And so if we can add in more automation, so a recruiter is displacing candidates in the ATS and having those more quality conversations, that's our roadmap for the next six months. And so if things happen the way they're supposed to happen, hoping next time we sit down at a big event like HR Tech, we can have more exciting conversations. But again, we are just trying to free up as much time for recruiters as possible. Chad: So here at UNLEASH, a lot of big names, a lot of small names. Shannon Pritchett: Yes. Chad: What's exciting you the most about what you're seeing at a show like this? Joel: You've been to a few of these, right? [laughter] Shannon Pritchett: I like these. You know I actually really, really... There's a lot of vendors I've never heard of here. It's like very HR heavy. That was sort of shocking to me. And looking at the attendee list, it's all CHROs. And a lot of head of TAs, our booth has been popping. Chad: Which has been pretty awesome, right? Shannon Pritchett: Yeah. I think, to be honest, I don't know if they even have a booth. We were just talking about them TaTio. Chad: They have a... Shannon Pritchett: Stand? Chad: A startup booth. Shannon Pritchett: A startup booth, okay. I met them at HR Transform, I love what they do, I really like that. So for example, Stan Ralph down in Perth, Australia. He used to use... When he worked for a coal mining company out of Africa, He used to use augmented reality to put the coal miners in those scenarios, they knew what they were getting into. Chad: Was that a CareerBuilder product? I can't remember. Shannon Pritchett: No, I don't think so. Chad: I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. Shannon Pritchett: Okay. [laughter] Shannon Pritchett: I was like, I'm intrigued, tell me more. Joel: It's a good thing coal mining is a growth industry. They got the wind at their back baby. [laughter] Shannon Pritchett: But no, it actually increased retention rates. So like all the candidates who went through the simulation none of them turned over. So the fact that what they're doing is providing that simulation, I think is so beneficial. And I'm like, that's a company I wanna partner with. You know what I mean? If you can put those scenarios in there from a high volume standpoint, like no one wants to like, "Oh, here's your scenario, here's your Zoom meetings, here's your... " [laughter] But when you're interacting with like dangerous equipment, heavy machinery, customers, I think that's so innovative. And I love these Israeli companies. Joel: Oh. Chad: And I'd like to say, as an advisor, I would like you to integrate with them. Shannon Pritchett: Okay. [laughter]? Yes. Yeah. Joel: Shannon Pritchett, everybody. Chad: Yes. Yes. Joel: Shannon, thanks for joining us. For our listeners who want to connect with you, where would you send them? Shannon Pritchett: Well, first. [laughter] Joel: Here comes the marketer. Shannon Pritchett: I just want people to like drink. Just connect with me, find me on LinkedIn. That's it. Joel: Find me on LinkedIn. Shannon Pritchett: That's it. Joel: I love it. Shannon Pritchett: Yeah. Joel: And hireEZ.com as well. I'll do the marketing for you. Chad, that is a day, that is a wrap. Chad: Now we have parties. Joel: That's right. We out. Chad: We out. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forward it to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could've used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell. Enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey, or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now, go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

Tech hiring is in kind of a weird place right now. Newsworthy layoffs, artificial intelligence threats and a down economy mean a lot of indecision and uncertainty. Many companies are just pushing pause as a result. All this makes for a tricky environment for any and all startups looking to place high-tech workers. InSquad, a one-click solution to source and hire top-quality vetted remote software developers, ain’t scared though. That’s why CEO Alex Svinov decided to face the Firing Squad. He thinks he has a better mousetrap than the likes of Upwork, Turing, Andela and many others. Is he right? Gotta listen to find out. TRASNCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. Intro: Like Shark Tank? Then you'll love Firing Squad. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to put the recruiting industry's bravest, ballsiest and baddest startups through the gauntlet to see if they've got what it takes to make it out alive. Dig a foxhole and duck for cover, kids. The Chad and Cheese podcast is taking it to a whole other level. Joel: All right, time for another Firing Squad. What's up everybody? This is the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheeseman, joined as always, the Daffy to my Donald, Chad Sowash is in the house. And today we welcome to Firing Squad, Alex Svinov CEO at Insquad. Alex, how are you? Alex Svinov: I'm doing great. Thank you very much. Joel, Chad, nice to meet you and nice to meet everybody out there. Hello. [chuckle] Chad: All the way from Serbia. Wow. Joel: Yeah. Alex Svinov: Yeah. Joel: Sorry for butchering your name. Svivno... Swivnov? Is that correct? Alex Svinov: Svinov. Joel: Thank God you're Alex. Chad: Svinov. Joel: I can do that one. I can say that one. Alex Svinov: Oh, you don't know my real name. [laughter] It's actually Alexander. Joel: Oh, that's easy too. I can do that one. Alex Svinov: Oh, Sorry. Sorry. [laughter] Joel: All right, so we know a little bit about you personally. For our listeners out there that don't know you, give them a Twitter bio and... Give us a window into Alex. What's he all about? Alex Svinov: I am a computer science graduate. For 15 years after that I've been doing finance and investment banking. And then I felt like I had it all. I knew it all, and it didn't feel like fun at all. So I, maybe nine, 10 years ago, I switched to startups. Founded my first startup in 2014, which went very well. Founded second startup, which also went well. And they're still profitable and running businesses. And then I felt like, startups is something that I really enjoyed doing. And, then I failed few times. And, here I am, now doing my sixth startup that's Insquad. Joel: And father of three. So he does get out. He does get out and live a little bit. [laughter] Alex Svinov: Well, yeah, my wife says, you should be more with kids. So I'm working on that. That's my KPI for this year. Joel: Now, does that mean have more kids or just spend more time with the ones you have? Alex Svinov: No, she's not ready for more kids. She is like, first take care of these ones, then we'll talk about new ones [laughter] Joel: All right. Chad: Always a good idea. Always a good idea. Joel: I can do that. Alex Svinov: Yeah. Yeah, that's true. I love kids. Joel: Welcome to the squad, Chad. Tell him what he's won today. Chad: Well, welcome Alex. This is how Firing Squad is gonna work my friend. At the sound of the bell, you'll have two minutes to pitch Insquad. At the end of two minutes, we're gonna hit you up with about 20 minutes of Q&A. Be sure to be concise with all of your answers or you're going to get hit with the crickets? That just means tighten it up, move out swiftly. At the end of Q&A, you're gonna receive one of three of these from either Joel or myself. A big applause. [applause] Chad: Grab that checkered flag and take a big chug of milk because you just won the race, baby. Golf clap. You're not the fastest in the race, but you're in the race so knuckle down and focus on getting better, faster. And last but not least, we have brought a horse to the Indy 500. Pack it up and take that walk to the glue factory, my friend, because you are done here. That's the Firing Squad. Do you have any questions. Joel: That is a tyre in the parking lot is that sound right there. Alex, are you ready to pitch Insquad? Alex Svinov: Ready as I am. Joel: All right. In three, two. Alex Svinov: Yeah, here we go. When I was at my last startup, it's a FinTech company, I had a great issue of building a software engineering team. And it's like I've been interviewing lots of developers, lots of data scientists, and so on and so forth, but once I would find some really good ones. They would either ask for too much money or they would look for something else. And, essentially it took me like a half a year to build this, a good team. And then I figured out that this is problem, not just my own problem, but pretty much everybody in the market is having the same problems. Now, that was back in 2020 when this was much more acute than today. However, that, finding talented engineers is still a huge problem for any startups, but particularly for a startup because engineers always want stability. Alex Svinov: They want some good big projects. So if I'm a small startup, where I'm gonna find talent, right? And startups always depend on this talent. So that's why we built Insquad. What we did is we went out to remote locations like Latin America, Eastern Europe, Far East, and we've built a pipeline of software engineers, which we would vet with machine and with the human. And then we would get them matched with the cool startups in US. And that played out very nicely because US's startup get a great talent, which you wouldn't be able to get at home at very good prices, which are again, like have their level of the price at the US software engineer. Alex Svinov: And you would get them right immediately, right? Because all the engineers we have on our platform are available to start in two weeks. So, yeah, that's where we are. And so far we've helped over 50 startups and we have over 200 engineers working for them, and about 3,000 guys in the vetted pool. That's it. Joel: Pretty close. Pretty close to time. Pretty close to time. Let's talk about the name. Insquad. How'd you come up with it? What's the story? Give us the 411. Alex Svinov: Yeah. Well actually when we're talking about this name, we're thinking about the best software engineering team, it's like a small squad, right? Where everybody is working towards the same goal, everybody's supporting each other, and it is a little bit like an army. It's definitely not like an army in a big sense, but a little bit like an army in the sense that you've got your own task and you gotta finish it no matter what. And that's why we thought that, having people in squad somewhat reminds you of these values, of these goals. Joel: Okay, I can buy that. I can buy that. All right, so money-wise, you've generated 200K in investment. The last round was in 2021, which seems quite a while to wait for another round of investment. Talk about that. Are you just that profitable now that you don't need money to take on the big dogs or what's up with investment? Alex Svinov: We used the initial investment to actually generate the product which is a portal where we source engineers. When we, in 2022, the market changed a lot because the demand for engineers has gone down significantly. And so what we've done, essentially we use this time to build our funnel of engineers and bring more on board. So by the time when the next growth phase comes which we already see, it kind of the market stabilized and we already see the demand we would have good pipeline of engineers, we'll definitely go to the market to raise our Series E. But I'm assuming later this year or maybe early next year, because our businesses actually it is, we're profitable these days. However, we would still need the investments for things like marketing, brand building, and expanding our franchise. So. Joel: Okay. Let's go back to something that you just said. You said the market for developers has slowed down significantly, which I would agree, but then you also said that you think it'll pick up based on everything that we hear with AI taking jobs from developers, being able to do code turning, entry-level coders into 10x developers. Why do you think it's gonna come back? Alex Svinov: Well, there are a few things we should separate. First is AI is really taking jobs away from developers. And my answer is, no. It is certainly taking some, it can complete certain tasks. It can work as a junior level developer. However, in our case, we don't work with a junior level developers per se, only, we only offer senior level, architect level team lead level engineers. So that is something AI cannot do now, it may do it sometime in the future, but not as for now. However AI also needs engineers and these engineers are called data scientists. The guys that are training models and aggregating data, building the silos and so on and so forth, which is again, something that AI cannot really do at this moment. More to that we actually are seeing increased demand. We, like, for example, our first client asked for a prompt engineer, which is a new profession that came into play with the rise of chatGPT. So the first request we had in January, and now we have more and more to that. So if we're not gonna need any more engineers or developers, then probably we're not gonna, we will not need anybody else guaranteed because the engineer is to, in my view, engineer is the future of any profession because you need more and more software. We're going away from the hardware into software and that's why you will need more the data scientists, more test automation guys more engineers that will invent our future. Chad: All right, so taking that and actually just spinning it more onto the competitor side. So Hacker Inc has 103 million in funding and they've been around since 2009, Turing 160 million TestGorilla has over 80 million. Then there's Coder bike Codility, HackerEarth, and a list of other somewhat like platforms that are out there. What makes Insquad different from all of those other than the lack of funding and lack of use in service? Alex Svinov: Well, we are very much product-focused and what we are trying to do is to have only superb talent on our platform. Now that everybody would say nobody would try to sell you some lousy engineers. Everybody would be saying that we've got great talents. However, this is what I hear from our customers that they come back to us and ask for more because of the quality they get with our platform is outstanding. And that's what we strive to go through to get only the superior talents on our platform. I wouldn't say that our biggest competitors are these platforms. I would say our biggest competitors are old style staffing firms, which are only looking for small customers and they have 25 to 50 to 100 engineers on board and they can only do a certain amount of work. Because if you look at the market in general, all these new platforms you're talking about, they adjusted tiniest to the one or two or three percent of the market in general. Chad: Okay. So more toward what Joel was talking about, today's landscape, GitHub, who owned by Microsoft, is using AI to make mediocre coders good and good coders great. IBM announced that they're slashing 3,900 jobs on the focus of automation and cost cutting in the Tech industry. So there's gonna be a huge change in demand. Here's the hard part. Looking at yourself in the mirror in the morning, you've gotta be afraid of these automated AI engineers that take and again, we're talking about speed. And speed means funding. And we talked about HackerRank and all those others who have the funding. Right now do you have the juice to be able to pivot to all of those other engineers, QA, QC, prompt engineerings, do you have enough juice to pivot and keep up with the others? Not to mention the automation 'cause it's not about is it going to create new jobs? Of course it is, we know that, but do you have the juice to be able to pivot and stay in the race with the rest of them? Alex Svinov: Well, I'm the CEO of the company as long as I am the CEO and I believe in this idea, definitely I will have the juice and not only will I have it, but we already actually pivoted when we've seen a lot of demand in AI. We've basically focused all our sourcing efforts and all our selling efforts on working with the AI and that played out very nicely, especially last half a year when we got so many startups coming and hey, we wanna automate this with AI, hey we want to integrate chatGPT. And that's where we are getting the biggest chunk of business these days. What, just today we signed a new customer, they are doing animation. They want to automate motion picture creation whereby you would do, you would just type in chatGPT like prompt and it will create animation immediately. So and we see it in every segment in legal, in finance, in creation of movies everywhere. Joel: You said that you have a higher level of developer in your network, correct? Alex Svinov: Yeah, that's correct. Joel: And what makes you think that you have people that aren't in Upwork or aren't in these other platforms that have techies? Like what makes your sauce so secret? Alex Svinov: We're trying to keep it very personal in the sense that each and every engineer that we have on our platform has a video recording of the actual interview with Insquad recruiter. And that's much different from what you would see at Upwork where it's basically self-serve, right? Which we try to put extra effort to get only the guys that we know, they not only, they have passed tests at a very high level, but we also had the technical recruiter go with them through all their experience. And then if for example, during this interview our technical recruiter is not entirely satisfied with the explanation, what exactly was done on this project and on that project, what kind of technology you have been using and how you've been using where you adjust a code reviewer or did you actually do the code yourself on this project? Then if the tech recruiter is not entirely satisfied with the answer, we would not list that skill with this particular profile. So basically anybody that we bring to our customer, we are certain that we know that this skill and set is actually matched to the resume. Joel: But there's no exclusive that you sign with the candidate that says you can't go to Upwork. So there's a good chance that these people are all over the place, not just your platform. Alex Svinov: Well, I wouldn't think that they are at Upwork because Upwork typically is for lower level, lower field gigs. And the guys that we are working with, they are typically interested in some complicated tasks. They want, they don't wanna have a small project. They, because they essentially are looking more for an employment-type relationship, but because they're outside US, they're okay with the contract that would use. Chad: Turing or HackerRank then? I mean, those are two top tier. Joel: Yeah. Doesn't have to be Upwork. Chad: Yeah, those are two top tier. So they could be in those platforms then? Alex Svinov: Oh yeah, Oh yeah, they could be. Chad: Okay. Joel: So when I go to your site and I look at Web3 developers and how many you have, they're typically around the 100 to 125-ish number. Is that what you expected to have after being in business for three years? Is it less than you would like to have as someone who doesn't do this, it feels low to me, but I want you to speak to what your perception is of how you're growing the network. Alex Svinov: Yeah, if you are talking about Web3, that's a totally new set of technologies and there is just the fact that they're if you would ask how many Rust developers do we have on our platform, it's essentially a function of how many Rust developers are out there. And there ain't many. I mean, if you would look at JavaScript, there are, there good chance there is a few million engineers all over the world. If you are talking about Rust or Solano or some other similar technology, they'll be like 10, 20,000. So that's why we don't have that many of these engineers. Joel: So okay, so Metaverse, you have 135 Metaverse has been around for 10 years. It's hot. It was really hot a few years ago, so forget about Web3. And I would feel like there'd be a lot more Metaverse developers out there. Alex Svinov: It's also the question that most of our customers are not looking for that type of engineers. Joel: Then why feature Metaverse on your website if your customers don't want Metaverse developers? Alex Svinov: Most of them don't. There are some that would ask for, but most of them want plain strong JavaScript or Python or Java or C++ engineers. So, we do, obviously we do have engineers in Metaverse and in the Blockchain space and in the Web3 space, but it's not the main source of interest for our customers these days. Chad: I'm gonna take what Joel is doing in the micro, and I'm gonna go macro. Okay. So Statistic says there's around 28 million developers in the world today, which means if you had 2%, you would have half a million developers in your platform. How many developers do you currently have in your platform? Alex Svinov: 3000. Chad: So not 2%. Alex Svinov: Not 2% of it. Chad: Okay. Alex Svinov: Of course. Chad: Okay, okay. Alex Svinov: Yeah. And my take on this is that the market is huge, right? It's very wide. Chad: Yeah. Alex Svinov: And it would be unreasonable to expect that any platform would have like 2% of the entire World market. I mean, there are certain areas in the World like Latin America where we have a very significant chunk of their say JavaScript engineers are on our platform out of all the senior engineers. But I definitely wouldn't think that we're not taking the the 2% of the entire world. Chad: Okay. Well, on your site it says our vetting process lets in only top 2% developers, right? So they also say it says get 75% interview to hire with Insquad. That's awesome. I love that. I love that. So two questions around that. What's the base number of interviews to hires you're working off on that sample set? What's the total? Alex Svinov: Right now we have over 200 engineers working with the startups, and if we're taking that over the period of two years it would have been over 300 engineers so that's the data set we have. We use the large data set. Chad: Okay. Alex Svinov: And getting back to your first question about 2% that basically means that out of the guys that get into our funnel on the top suppose we would get 200 engineers today try to apply to our platform. And the ultimately we'll get only two out of this 100 that we would put their profile on our platform so that they get matched with the projects. That's what 2% means. Chad: So they would be qualified at that point? Alex Svinov: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Chad: Okay. So how does your system know the candidate was hired? Alex Svinov: Every time when we have a company come to us and request an engineer we would sign a contract with them. We're working based on a contract with a company so... Chad: Kinda like a staffing setup? Alex Svinov: It's exactly a staffing model. Yeah, so we know everybody who was hired. Chad: Okay. Alex Svinov: Access to the platform is free unless you hire somebody. Chad: Okay, so around the product real quick you've got pre-screening, quizzes, coding challenges, recruiter interview. Is there any training that you keep in the platform to continue to help the individuals become better at what they do and more sticky to your platform? Alex Svinov: That's a very good point. We are launching this part. It's not yet there. It's got... It's due to be launched this fall. We will have a huge separate part that will take care of their training. Of their... Of taking their career path because obviously we want strong guys to stay with us for longer. So we want to make sure that their project is something that they're interested in or if they wanna try new technology we are there to help them get themselves educated and find themselves a new project. Joel: Let's talk about marketing real quick. So my perception is there's not a lot going there. You've got three blog posts that I can see on the website. Your last Instagram post was in 2022. If I click Insquad in media on your website it just takes me back to the cases page. So there's... I don't see a lot of press that you're sort of touting. What's going on marketing wise and how are you getting professionals to the site? How are you getting employers to the site? 'Cause I don't see a lot of things going on marketing wise. Alex Svinov: Yeah. As for professionals we've tried many techniques and we've seen that simple outreach works the best in a sense that we can target our audience very well because when we used marketing tools we would get a lot of entry level guys to try to go through our system and they would never pass. So the conversion ratios were real real low. So what we have then decided is we first we buy databases with the context obviously where it's legally permitted, and then we do cold outreach because in some places it's not allowed so we don't do that there. Now, and that plays out very well meaning that the guys that we outreach in many cases, they are actually they're interested in this type of an offer. As for the customers or for new clients we've found that offline events work much better than online these days. There's just too much of online content that all our target audience, the CEOs and CTOs of the startups that we're trying to target there are getting. We're participating in all sorts of offline events, conferences and that works well. Joel: It feels like a conference would be a great time to... I don't know, create content for social media. Does that not come into play with you guys? What's going on there? Alex Svinov: I fully appreciate that and that's the... I've heard these questions before. However, with what we've seen is our sales process is built on a direct B2B communication which does not require a lot of marketing. Now, once we get past the point where we see a lots of demand we use marketing like last year, and we've found that it's not as efficient because marketing helps when you have a high level of demand, and then it marketing helps you convert that potential demand into real demand on your site. What we found last year is that due to the fact that the demand has dropped direct sales are working way better. So when we go to conference we have a direct contact with our target audience. We take... We work with them and help them build their software engineering team. Joel: You're giving me the same answer so we'll move on from that. Alex Svinov: Oh, sorry. Joel: Maybe... Alex Svinov: Sorry. Joel: Maybe you could go to Upwork and get a social media manager or something... Alex Svinov: Okay. Joel: On an hourly basis. Alex Svinov: Okay. Joel: So you mentioned a series A. What do you want to be when you grow up? Do you want to be a huge company? Do you wanna be like a lifestyle thing in central Europe and go to Berlin and Copenhagen on occasionally? What is the end goal for you on in this business? Alex Svinov: Well, I definitely wanna build it into a large business because I see this business has a very good capitalization in the sense that each and every engineer that we work with, and each and every customer that we work with typically stay with us up for a period of over two years. We have very little churn. So I see that business could be easily capitalized and style it in five years or so when it reaches good numbers. I personally have a number of 1,000 engineers that are working with our platform which is five times this from today. And it's probably gonna take us about two years to reach that number. And then it's gonna be good numbers in terms of valuation. Chad: So talk to me about staffing you are pretty much a staffing company to some extent, just more focused on online, right? Are you working with any staffing companies whatsoever? What does your go-to market look like, sales-wise, outreach, those types of things? Are you going direct to companies or you actually feeding through staffing companies to be able to supercharge their deliverable? Alex Svinov: Yeah, with us we could work with the staffing companies or we could work with the and clients. These days we have less staffing. I think we have maybe three staffing companies at all just because they're, when the market is hot everybody is trying to get engineers from anywhere, right? When it's kind of cools down it doesn't really make sense for us to go with the staffing firms because we would take up a lot of their margin or they would take up a lot of our margins. So our goal for this year and up until the point when the market, is gonna, catch up is to work directly with the customers. Chad: Okay. So pricing, I'm assuming you're going off of just a percentage of margin. What are you working off of there? Alex Svinov: Yeah. Well, our margin is included in the ultimate price of any engineer. Chad: Okay. What is it? Alex Svinov: The margin is? Chad: Yeah. Alex Svinov: Anywhere between 10% and 45%, really depending on the exact requirements and complexity of finding that particular candidate. Alex Svinov: Alright. Alex, the Q&A is over. Its time to face the firing squad. Are you ready my friend? Alex Svinov: Yes. [laughter] Joel: Okay. I'm gonna go ahead and go first. So you got the idea initially for this business in 2015-ish, correct? The idea for this business came when there was a high need for developers. There was a ton of energy when you started the company with the pandemic there was money flowing into startups. I would've loved to see more money raised in 2020 to 2022. I think it's gonna be significantly harder for you to raise that series A going forward. And the fact that it's been two years tells me there's been some hurdles to get that funding. But I also think that from the original idea of this company the world really has changed. I really do believe that Elon Musk laying off 80% of his developers or whatever that is is gonna be a trend in all kinds of companies and not just tech. Joel: We see IBM to BT to all kinds of companies talk about AI taking jobs, talking about layoffs. So I think you're gonna be, you're gonna struggle just from that fact of the world has changed because of chatGPT. I think that you're bringing a squirt gun to a Howitzer fight. We mentioned Turing and Andela not just Upwork and Fiverr and some other big companies with a lot of money, a lot of brand recognition. At best, you can be like a really laser-focused niche that does have great Web3 developers or Metaverse or like really unique kind of industries. Joel: But this also feels like a company that has sort of ran outta steam. When I look at your social media, when I look at your content online, when I see links that don't go anywhere to me that says a company that was really pumped up at first was putting out content, and has like just sort of ran outta gas. So for those three reasons for me I can't grade any other way, but the guns, oh, Chad. Chad: Whew. Okay, Alex, first and foremost, you gotta tighten up that pitch my friend. You gotta tighten up that pitch. It's gotta be tight. A white glove service sounds like your forte, and I think that's awesome. The thing is you can't scale white glove human interaction. It's really hard. Unless what? Unless you're working with an organization that has that kind of scale like a staffing organization. That's the thing is that if you want to be able to grow this is all about scale, all about scale. Not to mention, if you take a look at your outreach and how you explained it to us, the outreach that you're currently doing isn't scalable. You need more traffic at the top end of the funnel that leads down to your screening and coding challenges, you've got the system in place, you just need to feed the beast, man. You gotta feed the beast. Chad: But manual outreach is not your friend, and it will never be your friend. I love the idea of going out to events and doing those types of things to get the word out there, especially in the community. One thing you're missing a huge gap in the market, especially right now. Joel talked about all the AI taking jobs, blah, blah, blah. Whether that's true or it's not true, doesn't fucking matter, man. What matters is that everybody's hearing it and they know they need to train, they need training, and they need it now. Chad: It's one of the things that GitHub's doing, HackerRank 's doing. A lot of these organizations are already doing Andela, which Joel just mentioned. They're feeding the beast in training a whole country [laughter] and trying to get this done scale. They're doing this with scale. So everything that you've hit, I agree with Joel with regard to two years ago. I think it would've been an easy big applause, but unfortunately, you're too late. It feels like you're bringing a horse to the Indy 500. You're a little bit too slow. Hopefully, hopefully you can get some funding. You can supercharge some of those areas like training and then also outreach and then you can explode. But until then, I hope you come back and you prove us wrong. But until then, my friend, you're getting the guns ouch. Joel: Sorry, Alex. Alex Svinov: Oh, no problem. [laughter] Joel: No problem. Well, we appreciate you being on the show. We appreciate you answering our questions. For our listeners out there that do wanna know more about Insquad, and the company, where would you send them? Alex Svinov: The best way to reach out to us is to contact me on the LinkedIn A-L-E-X S-V-I-N-O-V. And we'll continue communication there. Joel: You can also go to insquad.com. See I'm helping you with your marketing though, Alex, a little bit. [laughter] We do hope you come back and prove us wrong. But until then, Alex, it sounds like you have your work cut out for you. Chad, that's another one in the Can we out? Chad: We out. Outro: This has been the Firing Squad. Be sure to subscribe to the Chad and Cheese podcast so you don't miss an episode. And if you're a startup who wants to face the firing squad, contact the boys at chadcheese.com today. That's www.chadcheese.com.

Tech teams must have a little time on their hands. Either that, or they’re abnormally inspired after a spring of big tech layoffs. OK, maybe both. Anyway, LinkedIn is apparently launching new A.I. features for job seekers and Rippling is getting into the ATS game. Other than that, the boys discuss Yellow trucking’s epic crash, chatbots like Paradox landing in Forbes' penalty box and Tom Brady beefing up his resume and investment portfolio. Throw in the beginning of the NFL season and marriage advice from porn star Mia Khalifa and you’ve got one helluva show. TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level. INTRO: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Oh, yeah. It's International Beer Day. Do I really need to follow that up with anything? Chad: No. Joel: No, I don't think so. You're listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. This is your co-host, Joel Foggy Geezer Cheeseman. Chad: And this is Chad Warpigs Sowash. Joel: And on this week's show, LinkedIn coaches yellow trucking crashes. And Tom Brady is jumping into football. Or is it pronounced football? Chad: Football. Joel: Let's do this. Joel: Dude, you got an MRI today. What? Chad: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Joel: That old high school... The Al Bundy. Chad: Of tennis. Years of tennis, now starting to play paddle ball when we're in Europe. And I gotta say, I was so pissed. The American healthcare system is for fucking shit. I had to pay $850 for an MRI. We pay a shit ton of cash every month for insurance. Plus, you have out-of-pocket and you have your co-pays. And it's like, Jesus Christ, man, why don't we just put all these into one tax, throw it somewhere, and then we just go have a buffet of healthcare? How about that? How about we do that? Joel: But all the profits, Chad. All the profits. Chad: I'm just gonna rack up more Delta miles on this one. Jesus. Joel: That'll teach you... That'll show you for playing paddle ball, whatever the hell that is. Don't pick up pickleball, goddammit. Chad: But think of it though, for most people, they can't afford that kind of cash just to take care of something, especially if this was even worse. Didn't show up on an x-ray. Had to do an MRI. So, most people can't afford that. And to me, waking up, having my coffee, and then getting smacked in the face with that, that was not a good way to start the day. [laughter] Joel: Sure. And then you wonder why everyone's dropping fentanyl, because they got a lot of pain that they gotta deal with and don't wanna deal with the expenses of that. Chad: The pain's gonna happen tonight though, kids. [laughter] Joel: Okay. S3: What are you doing, step bro? Chad: Not talking about Julie. She's not into that kind of stuff. Talking about NFL football, baby. We are both stoked that it is back. We have preseason football tonight with Browns versus Jets, and I have... And I think anybody who listens to this podcast, I don't choose NFL teams. I'm a big college fan, and when they come, those players come to the NFL. I like watching the players. I like watching the Buckeye players. So tonight, I'll be watching Garrett Wilson very closely. So, go Jets. Joel: Did you say Browns? [music] Joel: Did you say Browns were on tonight? Oh, oh. Chad: Never have the Browns been sexy. There's never been a time. There's never been a time. Joel: But YouTube viewers will notice my lovely Browns T-shirt... Chad: Oh, that is... Yeah. Joel: That I have on tonight, to commemorate, I think, a very good season this year. I think it's gonna be... I say that every season, but it's gonna be a good season. I can feel it. Chad: You say that every season. I'mma be watching me some Justin Fields again, it's Buckeyes all over the NFL, which gives me an opportunity to watch every team and just enjoy it. Joel: Speaking of college football, did you see the word is Oregon and Washington are looking to join the Big 10? It's gonna be Coke and Pepsi in college football. And allegedly... Chad: Wow. Joel: Clemson, Florida State and maybe Miami will be joining the SEC when they open up again. It really is gonna be like a two-tiered system and it has the have and the have nots, everyone under that. Chad: Exactly. Well, and it's gonna be a sticky situation for the NCAA because these conferences are getting so big. They could actually just go ahead and secede from NCAA. And they've already talked about this, right? So having their own system with their own players, for their own university. So, this could be interesting. Joel: It's essentially the pros. Coaches are making eight figures. NIL students are making millions of dollars. Players are making millions of dollars. Chad: Not all of them though. Yeah. Joel: No. That's why you're gonna have the haves and the have nots. And the best are gonna be in the best league and everybody else will be... Chad: That's unfortunate. Joel: I don't know, getting an endorsement from Nikki's Ford dealership, [laughter] down on Main Street in Toledo, I guess. Chad: From your local State Farm representative, yes. [laughter] Joel: The little league team sponsored by... Chad: Yes, exactly. Joel: Joey Bagadonuts football player. Chad: Oh my God. Very nice. Joel: Well, someone who should be getting sponsored and has gotten some attention by a lot of our listeners is former porn star, [laughter] Mia Khalifa Chad. That's right. We don't just do employment topics here. We're also interested in the personal growth of our listeners, including marriage advice. And what better person to give marriage advice than a former porn queen. She's trending this week for giving the following advice. Take a listen. S5: Oh, we're comparing stats. Baby girl doesn't know that I am Tom Brady at this game. Married at 18, divorced at 21. Second marriage, married at 25, divorced at 28. Third engagement, engaged at 29, ended it at 30, but I kept the ring. I'm still keeping Tom Brady on his toes. We should not be afraid to leave these men. We are not stuck with these people. Marriage is not a sanctimonious thing. It is paperwork. It's a commitment you make to someone. But if you feel like you're not getting anything from that commitment, and you're trying, you gotta go. You gotta go. You have to go. Joel: Clearly someone who doesn't have kids in any of these three previous marriages. Because you can't just do that shit with kids. But anyway, I feel like this is a generational opinion, and a generation that just swipes left and right and orders their date for the evening has this mentality of like, "Eh, I'm unhappy. It's easy to get somebody else. I'm outta here." But to think of marriage as paperwork, you're getting into it for the wrong reasons. Chad: It's like religion in some cases. Everybody's gonna have their own belief systems and how they work with relationships and religion and all these things. Take whatever you want from that porn star advice, whoever, right? I think I'll look other places. Joel: And another reason why the sex robots will be taking over in the near future, because of that mentality. Chad: Back to industry stuff. So Skillit, a New York City-based, data-driven recruiting platform for full-time construction labor has secured 8.5 million in additional funding, listed as pretty much an extension to a seed round. Stay tuned, kids, because we are supposed to have Skillit on the firing squad in the coming weeks, so I can't wait to talk to these guys about what they're doing in construction, hiring, and also what they're gonna do with that money. Joel: When you said "Skillit," I thought we were meeting for breakfast, for some egg skillets, some peasant potatoes, some chorizo, maybe. Some things I like in my skillets. Chad: Chorizo. Joel: I don't know what you like in yours. But, Chad, I know what a lot of people like is free shit in their mailbox, at their doorstep. And I have to recognize the fact that a lot of our listeners are posting on LinkedIn, sharing their shirts, sharing their booze. It's a warm and fuzzy feeling. If you're not part of the club, people. Chad: Come on. Joel: You gotta go to chadcheese.com, click that free link, give us your information. We'll send you a t-shirt from JobGet, and you could potentially win a whiskey from our friends at Textkernel, beer from the folks at Aspen Tech Labs. We're doing Airbnb gift cards to the tune of $250 from our friends at Abode. Am I missing anyone? Am I missing anyone? Chad: I don't think so. Joel: No, I think I got it all, man. And while you're there... Chad: That's a lot. Joel: Go to the podcast platform of your choice and give us a review. If you listen to us, watch us, and if you're on YouTube, make sure you subscribe and tune in to our videos because those are trending as well. Not like Mia Khalifa's wedding advice... Chad: Pretty face. Joel: But trending nonetheless. [chuckle] Chad: You got birthdays. Joel: There we go. S6: Can you feel the tension in the air right now? I know I can. I can feel it all the way down in my plums. [laughter] Joel: Alright, Chad, you know what that means. Another group of listeners celebrating another trip around the sun. That includes Wendy Daly, Kim Bates, Christy Kelling, Stephanie Pendrys, Michael Malady, Sally Millet, Christopher Cleland, Micah Clark, Neil Costa, Marc Coleman of Unleash fame, Brendan Cruickshank, Cyndi Peterson Hash, and Jessica Lee. Everybody. Chad: Yes. SFX: Happy birthday. Joel: Happy birthday. We love you. We love you. Chad: You know what time it is, kids. That's right. Events powered by the Shaker Recruitment Marketing. That's right. So, we have RecFest coming up in Nashville on September 13th where we're taking the Disrupt stage all day to talk about recruiting in technology. And we're doing it with special guests. Get ready. Special guests, Allyn Bailey and Tracy Parsons from the Talent Rebel Cast podcast, and Shelley Billinghurst and Serge Bougereau from the... Joel: RecFlex. Chad: The RecFlex. It's gonna be a star-studded day on the Disrupt stage in Nashville in September, except for Serge. We're letting him come on. He's not stars at all. 50% discount on this show, kids, why? Because we want you to bring everybody. This is a all-hands talent acquisition team scenario. So bring one, bring all. Go to chadcheese.com/events or just click 'Events' in the upper right-hand corner. Then, Gems 2023 Virtual Talent Summit where you will find Joel and I, where we're gonna be joined by Commissioner of the EEOC, Keith Sonderling, and NYU professor, PhD Mona Sloane to talk about AI's ability to unlock recruiting efficiencies, the trials, tribulations, and reasons why or why not the recruitment community should embrace AI. Chad: Now, watch out, kids. Look for the golden ticket, because we're going to have a pre-recording party, which means you're gonna be invited to the actual recording to interact. This is a virtual event, but we're going to invite a scarce amount of people to come and enjoy and interact with us. And also, again, EEOC Commissioner Sonderling and Professor Sloane. So, that's happening for the Gem event. HR Tech then happens at Mandalay Bay, 10th through the 13th of October. Man, we're gonna be in the expo hall for two solid days with Fuel50. Two days, eating, drinking, interviewing, and who knows what all the hell else we're gonna be doing with them. But thanks, Fuel50, for allowing us to crash at their place in Vegas during the biggest HR Tech show in the industry. Then we've got three days. We're gonna be on a plane to Paris, to go to a staple of a show, UNLEASH Paris, UNLEASH World. SFX: Alright, alright, alright. Chad: It's an amazing show. If you're in Europe, you've gotta be there. There's no question. If you're in the US and maybe you're not going to HR Tech, or maybe you are and you wanna make the crazy flight like Joel and I are, go to chadcheese.com/events, or just go to chadcheese.com in the upper right-hand corner. Click on 'Events,' register, register, register. We wanna see you there. Joel: By the way, you mentioned Serge and Shelley. Somebody make sure they're not on the ledge. Word is that Justin Trudeau, the Prime Minister of Canada... Chad: What? Joel: Is separating from his wife, so... SFX: Take off what you were doing in our movie. Don't wreck our show, you hoser. Joel: Little love for the Canadians. Make sure they're alright, everybody. [music] Chad: TOPICS! Joel: Alright, let's start with LinkedIn, shall we? They're reportedly developing an AI coach for job seekers to expand its presence in the recruitment segment, which contributes to half of the company's revenue. The AI coach, known as "LinkedIn coach," I wonder how long the marketing team worked on that one, will assist users in applying for jobs, acquiring new skills, and expanding their network using the power of AI. The tool will suggest questions and aid users in finding and applying for jobs through conversational interactions, also known as a ChatBot. Chad, what are your thoughts on this news outta LinkedIn? Chad: I've said it once and I will say it again. LinkedIn has more career information, content and intent for me than any other social or hiring platform that's out there. And they still cannot do basic matching on jobs. They still can't do it. The problem, they have a 20-year-old infrastructure being flooded with new... That's right, kids. Air quotes. New features, while a wave of tech debt slaps them in the face every morning. And now, they want to get into coaching. All of their tech is disparate for the most part, and a good amount is old. They don't need new products and services, they need to modernize what they have and shore up the data foothold as Microsoft, generative AI, gets ready to consume user data and advise users. So this feels like Microsoft is really just trying to pressure and push this down the throat of LinkedIn. Chad: And I'm sure there are very many people on the product team that are incredibly overzealous about this, but here's an example of what I mean. LinkedIn launched an AI chat feature, and here's a quote from a story. "I used LinkedIn's new AI chat feature to message people about job opportunities. It saved time, but was very generic and kept getting my experience wrong." Getting my experience wrong. You've got it right there. How are you taking these basic data points and fucking things up? I just don't trust LinkedIn. SFX: 60% of the time, it works every time. Chad: I don't give them 60%. Joel: So, this is what... Alright, this is Chad's take then, on the news. This is what happens when your parent company drops a billion dollar investment on something called OpenAI. AI is infiltrating everything Microsoft, and I guarantee you, someone on high said, "Okay, LinkedIn, you need and must integrate this shit ASAP, into whatever." Someone said, "Oh, we already have this LinkedIn coaching thing," which by the way, apparently has over a million users. LinkedIn is like 930 million people strong, by the way. Chad: Yeah. Joel: So roughly 1% are using this current coach. We'll see how many use the new iteration of the coach. But this is just generally ChatGPT looking at the information that LinkedIn already has. I'm sure it's gonna recommend jobs, it's gonna help you through your job search. Now, the one thing that I do think is interesting here is I've been talking a lot about ChatGPTs and Bard and the threat to Glassdoor and any kind of review site. And one of the questions some Twitter... Some tweet or X or whatever, I think, shared this screenshot, was the question of, what is the culture like at Microsoft? Was the sample question. That's essentially asking, what are the reviews like working at this company? And just like I've said at Bard or ChatGPT, you can ask, "Hey, what's it like to work at Wells Fargo or Salesforce?" And it will show you an answer based on stuff that's on the internet. It'll give you pros and cons. It'll give you a summary. So if I were Glassdoor and Indeed and Blind, maybe some of these others, that is another sort of nail in the coffin to say, if this thing gets integrated to any extent in LinkedIn and LinkedIn's nearly billion users kind of get access to this, what does it mean to us and our reviews? Joel: Now, the irony in this is, is ChatGPT and Bard get their answers largely from the content that's on Glassdoor and Indeed and other review sites. So if at some point they shut that data off, which I think they should, or Monster should have shut off Indeed when they had the chance. All these companies should shut off ChatGPT and other large learning models from getting into their content. Otherwise, you're just gonna be able to go to any search engine, any voice search, ask what it's like to work at a company, it's gonna use your content to do that. Look, I think this is something that LinkedIn had to do as a Microsoft company. Time will tell. They're not confirming the existence of this thing. There are screenshots out there, this may be a small beta test to see how people use it. It may not be, ready for prime time anytime soon. But they've gotta go this way. They've gotta go to AI, they've gotta go to Chat... Chad: I agree. Joel: They've gotta go where everyone else is going. Chad: Yes. Joel: Your point is, historically, they're really bad at it. Chad: They've got 20-year-old technology. They need to rebuild the rails so they're ready for the next generation. The next generation's here. They're not ready for it. I mean, that's the problem that I have. I would love to see LinkedIn kick ass, take names. But the problem is they are, like many organizations, they are stuck on this old ass infrastructure, and it's going to cost a lot of money... Don't get me wrong, I get it. It's gonna cost a lot of money to rebuild, but they've got to do it. It's either now or the shit just implodes on itself. Joel: They're Model T in a Tesla world, Chad. Chad: Yes. Joel: Let's talk about some new tech company called Rippling is getting into the ATS game. Does the world need another ATS? I guess we will find out. The company has launched Rippling Recruiting. Again, another one for the marketing department to score one. A new applicant tracking system aimed at streamlining and automating the hiring process. Rippling says their offering relieves common pain points in recruiting, such as limited access to tools and data for recruiters and hiring managers, lack of configurability in existing ATS platforms, data discrepancies due to disconnected systems. And alignment issues between headcount planning, recruiting and the HRIS. All common complaints from people who have an ATS. Chad, what's your take on Rippling getting into the ATS game? Chad: Well, I'm a big fan of a company keeping it simple, and Rippling Recruiting says what it is. There you have it. Nice day. Right? There you go. I love it. I hate it when companies and brands over-engineer new products. It's fucking ridiculous. So I give the name an A+. Rippling has taken over a billion dollars, US, in funding, 1.2 to be exact, and some of that was during the SVB debacle in March earlier this year, where Rippling took advantage of a crisis by grabbing another 500 million in Series E funding. So this move makes sense because Rippling needs to expand their total addressable market, and moving up the funnel is the easiest way to do so. The problem with that move is pretty simple. Name an HRIS that has an innovative recruiting solution that everybody wants. Joel: There isn't one. Chad: But why is that simple? The HRIS system, they're a stack within themselves, with payroll, onboarding, time and attendance benefits, and the list just keeps going. And the thing is all of the attention and all the noise happens on that side. Right? And all the money is spent on the HRIS side of the house, which means anything that's recruiting right out of the gate, I'm gonna predict that there are gonna be a ton of Rippling customers that are fans of this, but then the tech is just gonna atrophy very quickly, because it's not gonna get the time and attention that it needs. That's why every HRIS system that's out there, that has recruiting; ADP, SAP, UKG, name your fucking acronym, they all have shitty recruiting platforms because it doesn't get the time, attention and money that it needs. So, yes, it makes sense as you have this huge valuation and all this money to be able to expand your footprint, but going this way, to me, it makes sense, but it's not gonna be a great platform. SFX: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I've taken crazy pills. Joel: I don't think iCIMS is losing a lot of sleep over this news. They probably didn't when LinkedIn launched an ATS. But the growing sentiment is that ATS's are commodities, it's pretty simple to put data in database, make it searchable, create this, I guess, official log of who's applied to your company, and as a result, people think they can just plug and play. "Yes, we have an ATS. Yes, you can use that." And this battle for one platform to rule them all is still ongoing. Look, Paradox launched an ATS not that long ago. In addition to being a commodity, I think there's some real threat to companies feeling like, "If ATS X buys my competitor, I'm eventually gonna get squeezed out of that ATS." We talked about Canvas getting bought and being squeezed out of iCIMS who bought Text Recruiting a few years before that. I think there's some real fear of a lot of companies saying, "We don't wanna get squeezed out by said ATS, so we need to create our own system, our own platform that people can use our ATS, and we don't have to worry about being part of another ATS. Or, if there's a threat there, we're prepared for it." Joel: I think that we're seeing this with even Appcast and Bayard. Chris Forman, founder of Appcast is currently on a charm offensive apparently to sort of temper people's other agencies' fear that their Appcast is gonna cut them out of the deals, or just be a Bayard shop or become a competitor. And I think that sort of charm offensive is due because a lot of people are just on edge that, if it's not our tech, we're gonna get squeezed out and we're gonna be left behind. So if ATS is a commodity, people think it's easy to implement, maybe customers care, don't care how good it is, but companies more and more feel like they need to have it, and I think you're gonna see... Fountain is an ATS that became a chatbot, right? Or has a chatbot. So you're gonna see this bleeding into feature sets, everybody's got everything. It's probably gonna be a lot of mediocre products, quite honestly, although most of our customers in our space aren't super sticklers about, it's gotta be really good. It's more like, check it off the checklist that I can tell my manager, my boss, that, yes, we have that. Joel: So I think it's something that they had to do. I think you're right in saying that it will get neglected, people will get bored with it, it'll get shittier and shittier every passing year. But it is something that they had to do, and I think this will continue to be a trend, like, "We got an ATS too, everybody's got an ATS," just like everybody's got a chatbot, everybody's mobile, everybody's got search engine-optimized jobs. This is just another me too that we're gonna be talking about on the show. Chad: I think this is more for investors than it is anything else, but there's no way that Rippling is gonna be a best-in-breed solution, number one. So don't expect that to happen. And when we're talking about the Chris Formans of the world, I think it's awesome. He is definitely on a charm offensive right now, but the big question is, what happens when Chris leaves, what happens when he ejects to his private island in his super yacht? That's the thing, is that we have to understand that this is a much longer and much deeper relationship than just one person. Right? And in this case, from a Rippling standpoint, they have a lot of money, they do have to grow somehow, so yes, you're going to see this, it's gonna be something where, again, the Workdays have done it, everybody's done it, so it's gonna be a fight that many talent acquisition professionals are going to have to say when they say, "I don't want that piece of shit, we want something that's best-in-breed." So it's something we've been fighting for years. We will have to continue to do that. Joel: Yeah, it's a great point you make in terms of, look, Rippling has a ton of the investment money, the investors sit in a room and they go, "How do we add a billion dollars of value to this company?" And someone says, "Let's be an ATS, they're worth billions." And someone says, "Sure, let's take a piece of that." And they go, "How long will it take to build?" And they say, "Well, not that long. It's kind of been out there." And then they build it and they think, like, Oh, this is gonna add a billion dollars of value to the company. It's like Handshake saying, "We're taking on LinkedIn." Investors wanna hear big plans, and, "Hey, we're gonna compete with iCIMS and Workday and everybody else," is certainly a way to do that and pacify the investors. Joel: Alright, Chad, this is from Forbes. Chatbots are increasingly being used by companies to interview and screen job applicants, often for blue collar jobs, but like other algorithmic hiring tools before them, experts and job applicants worry these tools could be biased. Legislation is even being introduced to regulate their use. And fatigue may be becoming an issue with one job seeker saying, if they had to text with a chatbot for every job they applied to, it would be a "pain in the ass." The inevitable pushback against the chatbots. Chad, what's your take? Is the honeymoon over? Chad: Yeah. I don't think those job seekers ever applied for a job before in their life, because if they had to go from applicant tracking system form to form to form, it's even worse. So here's the question we need to ask ourselves. Was the application process, interview scheduling, and just overall hiring experience better when only humans were at the helm? The answer, it's a resounding fuck no. Humans are the most biased machine in the world. Candidates entered a black hole with no communication after they hit the apply page and hit submit. And bad managers are bad managers with or without AI. Doesn't matter, right? So why was all of this a problem before? Scalability. Humans don't scale. We talk about it all the time, which is why unconscious, biased, or just plain full-on biased black holes, overworked staff and the reason why advanced processes in tech can be the answer to literally a better experience and less bias. So this piece, to me, it felt like a hit piece almost. It focuses on one experience in very anecdotal tale. Really one data point, let's say. The last time we talked to the team over at Paradox, they were getting a 98% good experience rating from candidates. Chad: And that's hundreds of thousands, if not millions of data points. So it's important that we understand that before AI, chatbots, RPA and other tech, we had major issues. And those issues were the issues of the humans' inability to scale well and fast. So many of the platforms out there today are demonstrating better candidate and recruiting experiences because candidates aren't entering a black hole and recruiters aren't performing bullshit and mundane tasks. This is a pain point that we're going to have to push through. Mainly, most of these issues, I'm going to say, were human setup problems and/or managers just didn't... And I think you even have a great story aroundCole, where he showed up at one of these stores and they're like, "Yeah, you're not on the schedule." I mean, it happened before chatbots, guys. Joel: Yeah. This didn't go very deep, Chad. SFX: Just the tip. Chad: Yeah. No. Joel: Here's my theory. Journalists are getting laid off left and right. This writer was probably looking for a job, ran into a chatbot at some point and said, "Hey, I should write about this. And how can I put a negative spin on it?" And thus, we get the lost resume scheduled without knowing I was coming. Basic glitchy, buggy kind of things that all tech goes through, chatbot even more so than others, 'cause you're dealing with a lot of moving pieces with text messaging and web... Regular... There's a lot of things going on there. Yeah. How many times before the internet did resumes get thrown in the trash, lost in the mail? Somebody's ass was wiped with a resume at some point, I'm sure, in history. So this thing's been going on forever. I don't know how they found the specific people that were like, "I didn't get scheduled, something happened." Now, it did say that they'd reached out to Paradox for a comment, and I wish Paradox would've commented. Maybe they didn't get time to do so. They even brought about an Australian example with Sapia. Chad: Which is entirely different, by the way. I mean, they're talking about application process and then they flip over into AI assessments, and it's like, Jesus Christ, you guys have no fucking... And that's a thing. We see so many "experts" in this space who literally have no fucking practical experience and/or knowledge. They might be an academic who works with AI, but they have no clue of the practical application, how it should actually work. So, anyway. Joel: Yeah. Yeah. Look, this writer went to the editor and said, "I wanna write a story on chatbots and how they're biased," 'cause they did a search on legislation and found Illinois and found New York. And I'll find some people that talk badly about it. It's kind of new tech. It's timely, it's negative. People will click on it, people will share it. And that's what drives a lot of the media, including podcasts in some cases, Chad. Sometimes, that's what pushes us. But yeah, little bit of a hit piece. Not much to see here, in my opinion. Chad: No. Joel: Hopefully a lot of government officials don't read this and say, "Oh shit, chatbots are the devil. We need to create some new legislation to cut them down." Because I will tell you that from Cole's perspective, chatbot versus no much more amenable to doing chatbots than hoping for the best. Chad: Exactly. Joel: And speaking of hoping for the best, Chad. Chad: Oh God, let's hope. Joel: Yeah. Yellow Corp, a trucking business that's been around for 99 years has ceased operations and will lay off all of its 30,000 workers. Union conflicts, financial troubles, and a significant amount of debt contributed to the shutdown. In addition to the company's closure impacting employees, shareholders and customers, the US taxpayer who provided a $700 million loan during the pandemic will also get a kick in the groin. Chad, your thoughts on the Yellow news? Chad: So, just running down through all of the shit show, which is this Yellow trucking company. In 2019, Yellow lost more than $100 million. They were $1.5 billion, ba ba billion dollars in debt. 700 million in PPP loans from the US government. In return, the treasury took a 30% stake in the company. And with Yellow Corporation reported assets being 2.5 billion, as a shareholder and debt owner, the US government's gonna get paid back, period. Okay? That's not gonna be a problem. So the whole kick in the nuts thing is total bullshit. The most fantastical point, I think, is that 30,000 employees will be jobless. Not a chance in hell. That happens as trucking and logistics companies have desperately needed talent for years. My prediction is that most of these people will be in new and like jobs at competitors, within 30 days. If I were a competitor, I'd already be aggressively marketing to these people, and also meeting with the teamsters. This is where you need to have all those cylinders going, because there are 30,000 people that are out there, and you want the best talent that you can get. And we know that in trucking and logistics, there's a major shortfall, and Yellow represents about 7% of the actual market. So, who's gonna cover that? Joel: It's safe to say a lot of people are seeing red over yellow, Chad. Sorry. Sorry. I could not resist. Chad: Horrible, horrible. For sure. Joel: Yeah. Look, the narrative that people are trying to spin here is either, this is a canary in the coal mine for the US economy as a whole... Chad: No. Joel: Or, unions are awful, that's why this company went to shit. Chad: No. Joel: This is a horribly run company. Chad: Yes. Joel: It's a hundred years old of... I don't know how they survived a hundred years, other than the fact that trucking is a really important business and it's hard to lose money. Although they did, but also stayed in business. Oddly enough, there's a huge short squeeze on their stock right now and it's up 80 some percent. Don't get into it, people. Don't take financial advice and trade this shit. Chad: No, no. Joel: But the stock is going bonkers. Chad: Wow. Joel: It's gotta be a poach fest. Everyone who wants truckers has got to be on the phone, mass marketing to these people, 'cause that's 30,000 folks that are gonna have a job in 30 days, unless they don't want a job. But look, this is not the union's fault. This is not a canary in the coal mine of the US economy. This is a shitty, shitty business. And if you're in the trucking industry, you should be poaching your ass off for the next 30 days, to get these folks into your company. Chad: A badly run failing company shouldn't be confused with a teamster problem or a federal government problem or an economic problem. Joel: Yeah. Yeah. By the way, trucking is not my lane, and I don't think it's yours. But these guys are also like... [laughter] Chad: Get it. Joel: I guess they're called light load trucks, where they don't fill up the whole truck. Chad: No, I hear you. No, I hear you. Yeah. Joel: It could be half full, so when gas went up and they're light load... What did I say? Anyway. I got a light load. Chad: I think that's a problem with Americans today. We wanna have it now. We wanna have it yesterday, so therefore we have to actually do that bullshit shipping. We have to get rid of the expectation of next day. It's all there is to it. If you want it, then you've gotta go out on the local market. Don't go to Amazon and think you're gonna get it tomorrow. Too fucking bad. And these companies like Yellow, that's exactly what they were doing. They were doing light load, short loads and it was hurting them every single year, but they kept doing it. Joel: Yeah. It's that kind of mentality that'll force you into divorce after two years, Chad. Go back to Mia Khalifa. [laughter] That's where it all goes. And by the way, I don't think we talked about the Teamsters' win at UPS. Right? They wanted air conditioning and something else, right? Chad: Yeah, how hard was that? Joel: Pretty fair stuff. By the way, Jimmy Hoffa from Indiana, I don't know if you knew that or not. [laughter] Tom Brady, however, is not from Indiana. Chad: More to come. Joel: Alright. Let's talk about Michigan alumni, not even an argument, the best quarterback of all time, I think. I mean, have fun with that. Chad: Yeah. Unfortunately. Joel: NFL legend, Tom Brady, has become a minority owner of English Soccer Club, or is that Football club? Birmingham, I think it's pronounced Birmingham City. He will be the chairman of the advisory board, applying his leadership and expertise to various aspects of the Club. Brady, who retired from the NFL last year is the second former NFL star to invest in English football in recent months. Here's a chance to talk about Wrexham and Chad's bromance with Ryan Reynolds. Chad, I go to you for all my football commentary. What are your thoughts on Tom's move? Chad: Brady apparently didn't get the memo. He's not following the Wrexham recipe. I mean, why pay for a stake in a championship league team, which is just below Premier League, when you can go directly to the bottom and buy the entire fucking team? Get a Netflix or a Hulu series deal, and then follow the Wrexham recipe. That was one of the... I think one of the amazing moments is when that came out, when the welcome to Wrexham came out, and we watched, literally watched Marketing and Business 101, and it was amazing. I think they bought the team for... I mean, it was bargain basement, for goodness sakes. Joel: Two and a half million, I think? Chad: Two years. Two years later, they go up a league. And they're playing teams in actually the championship league and beating them. So why, again, Tom Brady, why don't you pay attention to the actual winning recipes that are out there? But it just doesn't make any sense. SFX: That escalated quickly. Joel: Let's give Tom a little break. He's single now, so there are plenty of 18-year-old supermodels to date. And he doesn't have time to manage a whole soccer team. Chad: He can pay somebody to do that. Joel: Apparently, owning a sports team or a media company is the new rich thing to do. Or I guess if you're really, really rich, you send rockets into space. Chad: Yeah. Joel: I find this really fascinating. Soccer football offers you the opportunity... Correct me if I'm wrong, but Premier League, if you're in the bottom four, you go down a league and then the top four in the next league go up. Is that correct? Chad: There's the relegation that happens. Joel: Relegation, this is all about relegation. So if you can invest down here and get a team up here, the value goes up. I don't know what, a hundred x? It's... Chad: Yes. Yes. Joel: Particularly if you get to the Premier League, it's... Chad: Like buying a stock when it's low. Joel: Yeah, exactly. Whereas you can't do that in the NFL. You can't do that in baseball. Chad: No. Joel: You can maybe do it in some minor league teams or new leagues. I think that's why Pickleball is getting so much interest, 'cause if that thing takes off, then you really were on the bottom floor of that. But I think it's so intriguing to own this relegation system where you get in low, you buy low, you use your celebrity and your money to get good players, build a fan base, sell a lot of shit 'cause you're now part of this. If you get bumped up... I mean, how far is Wrexham from the Premier League? Two leagues or something? Chad: They're still... No. Still, I think, four leagues. They're either three or four leagues, so they're still on the rise, right? Joel: This whole ecosystem lends itself to like, oh, come in, use your stardom, spend some money, get better, get up a league and then your team is worth 10 times more than it was. And then you can sell, you can continue to play the game. I think it's all very intriguing and I think more and more stars and money people will do this. And by the way, that's why Chad and Cheese... You're learning about this now, Chad. Chad and Cheese are the newest investors in the Ohio aviators of the ACL, also known as the American Cornhole League, Chad. [laughter] That's right. We're now owners of a Cornhole team. Happy International Beer Day, everybody. We out! Chad: We out! Outro: Wow! Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast. Or, maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back, valuable time you could've used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey, or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

Europeans are well-known for taking a long break from work in the summer, but if you think the world of work has taken a break, think again. On this episode, the boys cover the Appcast acquisition of Bayard from a European point of view, and how Stepstone (might) play a part in this game of chess. France has also been a full plate of work related activities and challenges, which get covered. If you love buy-or-sell, we have a robust line-up, and a hotly debated group of startups, including inploi, Propel, Settly, Zelt and Neople … no, not Nipple, you sicko … Neople. You gotta love technology people :) TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level. [music] Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. [music] Joel: Oh, yeah. It's International Clown Week, so there's no better time to listen to the Chad and Cheese show with our friend Lieven. This is the Chad and Cheese Podcast as Europe, I'm your co-host, Joel Wemby Cheesman. Chad: It is Chad, tease me please, me Sowash. Lieven: And this is Lieven, get without saving for you and Harrison. Joel: And on this episode, the Appcast acquisition from a Euro point of view, what the hell is up with France, and a super buy or sell? Let's do this. What's up, boys? Chad: It's been a minute. Joel: Summer of Lieven. He's either in Switzerland herding goats, or he is in a... [laughter] Chad: It's a hot Lieven summer. Joel: It is a hot Lieven summer, man. What you been up to, Lieven? Lieven: In fact, it's not that hot here. I mean, they've been promising me global warming for years now but in Belgium it's still fucking cold. Chad: Yeah, we're getting that, okay? We're getting that, so it's happening just not with you. Lieven: No, in Belgium it stays, we're running behind again. Joel: Well, Chad and I were, Chad and I were lucky enough, the private jet brought Lieven to Knebworth for 10 minutes, and that was fun. Did you have fun in Knebworth? Your short period in England, did you have any takeaways from RecFest? Lieven: I did in fact, I must say I was impressed because you wrung my arm to be there and I came and I looked around, yeah, it was fun. [laughter] Lieven: It's actually something I think we should copy at House of HR. We also have our own festival. We invite our own colleagues. It's like 5500 people. But we also have a HR Congress, and I think RecFest is like combining both. So if we spend tons of money on a festival, why not also host our own conference on a festival venue like RecFest is? Chad: Especially with all your brands, I mean, you could literally do what RecFest does, right? It's different because it's House of HR centric. You could do that with all your 50 plus brands, have all your employees there. So it would be a big carnival. It would be, I mean, that would be pretty awesome. Like RecFest but obviously different. Joel: What would the Belgian Ferris Wheel be? [laughter] Joel: We know it's a mechanical bull in Nashville. What would... Chad: A keg? Joel: A keg, yeah. A keg of Duvel. [laughter] Lieven: And if you drink enough you get a job, something like that. [laughter] Lieven: Okay. It could work, it could work. Joel: I like it. I like it. Well, let's get to... S?: Shout outs. Chad: Shout outs. Okay, let me go first. Joel: All right. Chad: This is a, We've all been waiting for this one, Kids. Okay, maybe not all of us. But shout out to Adam Gordon, who today, August 1st announced a tease to a new recruitment tech company and he's bringing Mike Hughes along. Many of you might not know Mike but we're gonna get him on the show. The guy is literally one of the AI touring types of guys. So he's incredibly smart. We're talking a lot about AI these days. Adam has been doing a shit ton around recruiter enablement, so I kind of have an idea of where this could prospectively go on, but we've been teased, not pleased yet. Joel: It's called poetry or something. Chad: Yes. Joel: Poetry, HR. Oh, that just sounds like a great, great endeavor. By the way, someone check out the iCIMS, Canada ID acquisition. I'm guessing it was exactly 366 days from the time that Adam announced that he's starting a new TA company. Chad: Yeah, I think it has to do with him when he left. I think that has to do with separation more than it has to do with that. Joel: Sure. I'm just saying, the clock is probably pretty exact to the moment... Chad: Well, yeah, of course. Joel: When He could start talking about some shit. Chad: Duh. Joel: All right, all right. My shout out, the name Victor Wembanyama might not mean anything to anybody, they might've known him... Chad: Excuse me? Joel: As Wemby, but in case you missed it, the number one pick in the recent NBA, that's professional basketball, in case you didn't know Lieven, is a 7'4" French teenager going to San Antonio. Historically, 7'4" inch players just look pretty goofy and uncoordinated, but this kid plays like he's a 6'8" young Charles Barkley. He can shoot from anywhere, he can pass, he plays D unless the dude snaps in two, from a hard foul. [laughter] Joel: He's the best thing I've seen... Chad: What do you mean? Joel: Since LeBron and he's from freaking France, not exactly a hotbed of basketball legends. Chad: They have tall people though. Joel: Yeah. By the way... [laughter] Joel: The third pick by the Spurs was another Frenchman. So San Antonio is quickly Becoming Paris South or Paris, Texas, which there is a Paris, Texas. Chad: Francais. Joel: Anyway, keeping on this guy, France is now known for wine, croissants, fashion and basketball. Chad: Rebellion, don't forget about that one. They're known, they do better... Joel: Oh, that's later in the show, Chad. Don't worry. Chad: Better than anything the French do rebellion, yes. And if you remember Shaquille O'Neal, when he came out of LSU he was a man playing a child's game in the NCAA. He came to the NBA, it didn't change, right? It did not change. So I'm interested and can't wait to see what this kid brings to the NBA. Joel: If Shaq could shoot like Steph Curry, he might be Wemby... [laughter] Joel: This kid is ridiculous. Chad: From downtown, Okay. Joel: And he's 3 inches taller than Shaq. Chad: Yeah. Well, that meant nothing, Shaq was 300 plus and broke backboards. Joel: Oh, yeah, Shaq could break this guy in two... [laughter] Joel: That's my only fear for him, is he runs into a brick wall... Chad: It's like a Sean Bradley kind of scenario, right? Joel: Body-wise, yes. Chad: Yeah. Just, it is, yeah. Joel: Skill-wise, not in the same universe. So it'll be fun. It'll be fun. Chad: Okay. Joel: Lieven what you got. Lieven: Okay. I've got no clue what you're talking about, but it's basketball, right? Joel: Okay. 60% of the time, it works every time. Lieven: Okay. So my rather opportunistic shout-out goes to Christian Baumann, who's the new CEO at Time Partner, our big tamping company in Germany. He's going to start October 1st, so new CEO. Joel: Oh, okay. Lieven: And since I'm a very small shareholder of House of HR, and given the importance of the German markets, I honestly really wish him lots of success. So, Wir schaffen das, Christian. Wir schaffen das. Joel: Lieven's bank account needs a win, everybody. Chad: Go, go, Christian. Get some of that GDP, baby. Yep. Joel: Well, we saw Lieven in Knebworth. Chad: Yes. Joel: Will we see him in Paris for Unleash in a few months is the question. Chad: That's the question. Joel: Mid-October. Lieven: Last time I saw you in Paris, Joel, we were in the Moulin Rouge, remember? Chad: Ah. Joel: Chad was ill. Lieven: Yes, and Chad was ill, yeah. Chad: For some reason, there were a lot of people on that last day that literally left early 'cause they caught some kind of bug. And I'm calling it the Moulin Rouge bug because I missed going to the Moulin Rouge, which I fucking hate 'cause I love that show. It was an amazing show. Joel: Fortunately for Chad, Lieven and I took care of his wife that night. She was... Lieven: That's true. Joel: She was entertained. Lieven: It's actually true. She had a hell of a time. She loved it, really. Chad: One thing I'll never worry about is you two taking care of my wife because she's too much for both of you. Joel: Yeah, but still. S?: What are you doing, step-bro? Lieven: She did seem to like it, though. Joel: Of course. Lieven: All the attention. Joel: Moulin Rouge. How can you not like that? Lieven: But to answer your question, I probably will be out Unleash in the second week of October. Chad: 17th through the 18th. That's right, kids. If you don't have your flight, you're going to HR Tech, it's going to be a tight window. Get that ticket and make yourself available at Unleash indeed. It's one of the staples in our industry, is Unleash World in Paris. Joel: Oh, there's a rooftop and some good wine with our name on it, boys. I can't wait to go to Paris. Chad: Amen. [music] Joel: All right, guys. A lot of Americans have no idea who Stepstone is, but that's starting to change with Appcast's recent acquisition of recruitment ad agency Baird. German-based Stepstone has owned 85% of Appcast since 2019. So while the press was about Appcast buying Baird, don't think for one second that Stepstone wasn't involved and approved the move. Joel: Chad and I have been covering this story as two Americans, but what's the European point of view here? Stepstone is a household name throughout much of Europe, who, by the way, is owned by Axel Springer, who owns Jobsite and Total Jobs in Europe. Quite a web they are weaving. Lieven, what's your take on? I don't know, Stepstone, Appcast, Baird, programmatic agencies in Europe? What is the foothold that programmatic has in Europe? Does anyone care about programmatic advertising for jobs? Lieven: I was contacted by VONQ this week, and they want to do some programmatic for us, so at least they care about it. And I think I care about it too, and many people care about it. But it's not as common as I think in America still. Of course, if you can automate something, you have to. The bidding strategy probably will, it will end up being cheaper if you do it right. But our companies, and we're not that small. Most of them aren't really using it as they should, I think. So that's probably something where we can still gain something. And I don't have any knowledge about Appcast themselves. I never used them. Chad: So Appcast is pretty much the infrastructure for all recruitment ad agencies, or at least that's how it started. That's how they broke their go-to-market, right? So every recruitment ad agency that was out there that didn't use or even sell programmatic, they were able to do it through Click Cast, which is Appcast's pretty much their agency exchange. So they, that's how they gained quick foothold in the US. I guess the question from an American to a European, as you just talk about VONQ, which I'll talk about here in a minute, do you think that the US will be able to bring performance to Europe and use Stepstone, Totaljobs, Jobsite as pretty much a conduit to be able to do that? 'Cause those are some pretty big names. Lieven: They're pretty big names, but they're not the biggest names here. We still have a very local approach. And those big global sites aren't that common over here. Maybe for big multinationals who want to hire all over the world, they'll probably use them. But our companies and our clients mostly work with local companies who know the local markets, local job boards. Joel: Well, I mean, Stepstone is really German. I mean, they pulled out of France. And I mean, they're really a German site. Lieven: But they are outdated. Monster, Stepstone, the big... The generalistic job boards are, in my opinion, are outdated. So we use our own websites to attract through a search engine marketing. You have those commercial job boards, but we mostly use the local ones. Then you have social media for the latent candidates. And then you have everything which is really new, the fourth pillar. But the second one, those job boards, Monster, by the way, is just totally outdated. Chad: It is. Lieven: Stepstone, I feel, is the same. I'm still waiting for their IPO, but I don't hear about it anymore. It's a recurrent cost. We don't like it. So we're trying to save money there and invest it in social. Because at the end of the year, we have to buy new credits. And new credits, you don't build anything. Chad: On the programmatic side of the house, and again, this is just seeing how it works here in the US, it's about those local sites. It's about being able to enable and then also drive revenue to a lot of those local sites. So what you're talking about is exactly the power of programmatic. But being able to like carry it forward with some of the bigger German site, which obviously Stepstone is a huge German site, Totaljobs, which is a big UK job site, etcetera, etcetera, just to start to bleed it in there. So what you're talking about is really where I see them stepping into Europe and prospectively getting a foothold because if they can drive more revenue to those smaller yet powerful sites. What's the loss? Lieven: Oh, those sites will be begging for their attention, I'm sure. But I wonder if it'll be worth it to them, because you'll always have to... They probably won't have an API, which is a plug and play. You have to connect your own systems. And when I'm talking about the local sites I really mean Local Belgium has 10 million people and they have a few local job boards, which attracts the biggest one, maybe 10,000 visitors a day, which is not that much. So I'm not sure if. Joel: And I don't think Americans appreciate the impact that government job sites have in Europe as well. I remember going to the House of HR event Talking about the top sites in the countries. Almost every country's top site is a government site. Lieven: Of course. Joel: I assume like integrating programmatic into those is gonna be impossible. Lieven: Because they're free. There's not... No use to... You don't need a bidding strategy because there's nothing to bid on. It's free. In Belgium, you have VDIB Flemish Department of Labor, you have Laforet from the French department. You have, Actiris from Brussels. We have three states within Belgium. You have the same in the Netherlands and Germany and so those probably are in almost all cases, those governmental sites are the biggest ones And then you have some commercials connected to newspapers, but as far as I know, most of them are not connected to those bidding sites, to those, programmatics. So it's a big game if they could add them. And I would definitely be interested, but I don't see it happen very soon. Joel: What, impact or influence do recruitment ad agencies have in Europe? Obviously they're a big deal in the US but I have no insight into how important, how used they are, how many there are. Talk about the landscape of ad agencies for recruiting in Europe. Lieven: Employer brand agencies are very common, but and sometimes you have, a digital approach, which probably is what you're talking about, but it's not that automated. It's more be sure you get your digital presence rights and these kind of things. But, the automated bidding is isn't standard. Definitely not. Chad: And again, it wasn't standard on this side of the pond, but when Appcast actually showed the recruitment marketing agencies that, Hey, look, there's a piece of the pie here, there's a piece of revenue that you're not getting, here are the rails. Here's the infrastructure. We're gonna give you the tech, and away you go. So it was like literally getting on, the heroin drip right on day one. Here's the thing around the Europe side of the house. So, just learned this week that it... It almost feels like VONQ is pulling their tent stakes out of the US. Kind of like they haven't seen the success that they thought they would really quickly. And if you're in Europe and you're coming to the US, you've gotta understand there's no such thing as an overnight success. Just doesn't happen. A lot of work, a lot of time, a lot of relationships, but obviously the benefit is huge. It seems like VONQ came over. They hired a bunch of really prime players. Then the next thing that all those prime players, pretty much all of them. Joel: Yep. Chad: There are a couple left, are gone. Do you think Lieven that, it's going to be hard for any of this performance based, conversation to be centered in Europe since the US has started this and we've done it so well thus far? Lieven: Yeah, I think so. And probably because it just is a different market. It doesn't work the same way as it does in the US because it's so fragmented. It's a different approach. I'm just looking into the mail VONQ sent me this week. They say, and they're talking about performance-based advertising. They are mentioning websites like talent.com, JobRapido, Azzuna, Jooble, JobLift, JobiJoba, JUF, ZipRecruiter, and Monster. To be honest, I don't work with any of those. We aren't the smallest player. Joel: You're not the smallest player. [laughter] Lieven: No. There are some much bigger still, but we're on our way. But I don't think it's that important, or maybe I'm totally missing out. And I've got a meeting with VONQ I think tomorrow. So I'll give you an update next, next edition of... Chad: Excellent. Lieven: Chad and Cheese, Europe. Joel: Almost regular... I mean, regularly we talk about how difficult it's for Europe to come to America and VONQ situation, reflects that. You mentioned Stepstone, IPO, any like, on our show, on the weekly show I'm talking about Stepstone buying career builder, making a big wave in America before they IPO. Like are you hearing anything in Europe about Stepstone making some noise around the public markets? Lieven: Nothing at all. Joel: Nothing at all. Lieven: And I'm really interested to know, because, it would be an interesting IPO and I wonder how they'll do it, but I didn't hear anything. Chad: Yeah, won't happen this year. It won't happen this year. No way. Lieven: Probably not. No, we should have heard before. Joel: We Should underscore that Europeans take the summer off anyway, so maybe by fall this will be an issue that people care about. But let's take a quick break and we'll talk about France. Chad: Un Francais. Joel: Let's talk about France boys they will introduce a new job seeker service France travail. That's probably not how you pronounce it in French. Lieven: Cavaye. Joel: What is it? Lieven: Cavaye. Joel: Okay. Replacing Pôle emploi, I said that wrong too. I'm sure to simplify workforce entry and consolidate services, the plan will cost 2.9 billion euros and require all job seekers including those on RSA, which is a social security benefit for the unemployed to commit to 15 to 20 hours of activities per week. Critics argue the requirements may be harsh for vulnerable individuals. Chad, do you have any thoughts on France's new policy. Chad: From the American side of the house? I actually led the build to the National Labor Exchange and tying together all of these systems. So I have some in-depth knowledge from a state and local standpoint, but that has nothing to do with Europe. So I want to hear from Lieven to see what his thoughts are. [chuckle] Lieven: That's easy, isn't it? Chad: Yeah. Lieven: Okay. In fact, I think it's a very interesting idea because basically right now there are six different departments in France all trained to get some sort of people which have been unemployed for a certain amount of time to get to back to work. And they're working fragmented. And now the whole idea is they're going to spend a few billion on making all those departments work together. But of course since this will cost a lot of money, they have to get the money back by making sure less people stay unemployed. They have to prove that it works. Lieven: So now basically they're going to force everyone who is unemployed to spend 15 to 20 hours on a weekly base following courses and workshops and job interview trainings, etcetera, just to piss them off that much that they prefer looking for a job. [chuckle] Lieven: Than staying unemployed because that is the whole idea and this might sound cynical but I'm sure this is the whole idea. Just by forcing people into training and retraining and workshops, which they won't get extra pay for, they might think, "Okay, this sucks, I could... I might as well get a job. That's the whole idea. Of course, in some cases you have to look at different communities. Lieven: There are people who lost their job and on average they're looking for a new job for six weeks till three months. If you force those people to spend 15 hours a week on these kinds of trainings, that will be stupid because of people... Those people are looking for a job. But I'm sure these aren't the people which will be targeted. But we're talking about people who've been unemployed for a long time and in some cases those people might actually benefit from certain training programs. There are people who are... Who have difficulties to access the labor market for whatever reason. And if you give those people specific guidance, this might work. Some labor handicaps, some special training might help them to get in touch with the right people but for those who just don't want the job because they are working without paying taxes, for example and they consider the extra benefits as an extra benefit for, those people, this might actually work and this is something we would like in Belgium as well to put a bit of pressure on people who have been refusing jobs. Lieven: And there is a very small percentage of the people everywhere I guess who just refuse to work. And as we always say the right to laziness has to be self-sustaining. You have the right to be lazy but not on our costs. Europe is, you would call it very socialistic but the whole community pays for those people who needs to be paid for. And that's a good thing but not wanting to work. And in this shortage, if you can't find a job, there probably is a problem. There are many more companies looking for people than there are people looking for a job today so if you don't wanna to work, this kind of social benefit isn't for you. If you can't find a job, then you should get the benefits but then you also should accept people trying to help you to find a job. So I'm pro, of course the unions are very much against it because in France, definitely in France, the labor unions are very strong and they feel... And they probably feel it, right, that it's just to push people to a job they don't really want. And I feel it. That's the whole idea in fact. Pushing people or say it nice motivating people to find a job faster. S?: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Joel: So France and the whole of Europe is in a demographic problem. People are getting older, there aren't enough young people working to support older people. The entitlements that people are used to, those gotta be paid for somehow and there aren't enough young people to pay for those services for people that are older. So we know in France, they upped the retirement age from 62 to 64. That was in reaction to this problem. If we make people wait two more years, that's money we won't have to pay, we're gonna be saving money. This is another way as cynical as Lieven sounds, this is a way to get people back to work and creating tax revenue that we can pay for the entitlements in a socialist country. There are three choices that countries in this position have. One is have more babies. That's pretty hard to do and sounds really Third Reichish when you make people have more babies. Joel: Number two is, you have more immigrants come into the country to then do the work and make tax revenue, etcetera. France in particular and you can probably talk to this better than I can Lieven, they have some real issues with letting immigrants in, there's a lot of culture issues and pushback and it's been politicized. So getting immigrants into France apparently has been a real challenge. If you don't let immigrants in or have more babies, you become a stagnant economy, you slowly die, [chuckle] you slowly become Japan or Italy and that's what I fear the road that France is going on. They're trying their best to make... Get people back to work, increase retirement age, etcetera. But unless they train change immigration policy or pour some more wine and start having some more babies, it's gonna be really hard to support the top of that pyramid of aging French by young people who there just simply aren't enough and this to me is a reaction to all that. They're not alone, a lot of European countries are facing this but France right now is really facing some demographic challenges. Chad: Yeah. I think this is smart from the standpoint of right out of the gate you have cost cutting measures, you have all of these agencies, if you can pull them together, you can look at waste, fraud and abuse which I guarantee you is happening and then also start to use better tech. That right out of the gate is cost savings number one. Number two, the thing that they talk about as training. The thing is they should have corporate sponsored training. These should be companies coming in and actually focusing on what they need, the positions that they need today, the positions that they need tomorrow and they should be working directly with the government to start building talent pipelines for those types of positions. Any of these individuals can get into those courses, pass or fail, what have you. They're going through their 15 to 20 hours a week but they're actually training for something, which from a company standpoint, the company could be paying for the training. So right out of the gate, I think the infrastructure's there to actually make something that's worthwhile. This isn't just poking and prodding somebody to go get a job, this is actually training somebody to get into a career that matters. But, I guess we'll see, again, this is the first step. What happens next, I think is the big key. Joel: It's a decent chunk of change to make a difference. Chad: 2.9 billion. Yeah. Joel: Yeah, we'll see. Chad: In three years. Lieven: And in this case, I feel the French government is right, because if you just look at the numbers, there is an unemployment rate in France of about 7.2, 7.3%. In Belgium, which is only a few kilometers next to France, it's only 5% and it's still too much. There is no reason why it should be 50% higher in France and in Belgium from five to 7%, it's almost 50% the difference. So in absolute numbers, this means lots of people. So I think those people should be encouraged to look harder for a job because we have so many companies in France trying to find people, desperately trying to find people. If you can't find a job these days, you might have really a problem and then you need help, or you're not just willing to accept offers and then you're probably not entitled to the social security, but it's a difficult one. Joel: Well, speaking of jobs, let's talk about some European countries that have just gotten some money and might be looking to hire some people. It's Buy or Sell, everybody. You know how we play. We talk about companies and this is a super episode, so it's more than three. We give a summary and each of the boys will chime in on whether it's a buy or sell. Let's play, Buy or Sell. First up is Inploi. London based Inploi has raised 1.35 million pounds in a funding round with plans to enter the US market. This brings total funding to 3.5 million pounds. Inploi aims to revolutionize the hiring process by employing a unique AI embedded SaaS approach that makes it easier for companies to source and recruit talent while providing an intuitive and frictionless experience for candidates. Chad, are you a buy or sell on Inploi? Chad: I think Inploi is... They're very cosmetic. They're top of the funnel. And they're not the applicant tracking system, much like Shazam who was just on firing squad out of Australia just last month. The big problem that we have here is this is a nice to have, not a need to have unless you have a solid business case that demonstrates bottom line effect. So what they're going to have to do, what Inploi's going to have to do is they're going to have to move down funnel like Paradox did and they're going to have to start moving toward that applicant tracking system. Because what this industry really needs is we need new tech in the record keeping and applicant tracking system, candidate experience side of the house. What we're doing is we're point solutioning the fuck out of this thing and we need more players like Inploi to be able to do that. Big problem is they only have about 4 million euros, not a lot of money. And they wanna come to the US. Whoo, man, that's hard guys. That's hard. So right now I think Inploi is on the right track other than trying to take that track across to the US. So right now I'm gonna be a sell. Joel: Oh boy. Chad: Sorry guys. Joel: All right. Inploi, I-N-P-L-O-I, of course it'll be confused with Employ, E-M-P-L-O-Y, the proper way to spell it. So the name is... [chuckle] Joel: Right out of the gate, a hurdle, I'd like to call this a poor man's hire easy, but they don't have pricing on their page, so who the fuck knows if they're a poor man or not? I can't get over the fact there is too much competition in the sourcing, recruitment marketing space. And in the time there have been companies like this, none are huge success stories. No one is cocaine and champagne. So for that reason, Inploi for me is a sell. Chad: Ouch. [chuckle] Lieven: I'm looking into them. I thought, "Okay, they have their buzzwords right. And it's AI embedded, it's software as a service expansion into the United States, Shopify for hiring." Sounds good. And then they started in 2016 and they managed to still not going broke. So they must be doing something right. Chad: Right? Lieven: And then I read something about fixing the world of hiring, which I thought was a bit arrogant... [chuckle] Lieven: Because the world of hiring isn't broken so why should it be fixed? Chad: It's totally broken. Lieven: But then again, it's enthusiasm so that's good. And I kept reading and then I read something about their ability to cater to neurodivergent audiences and then they lost me. Joel: Ooh, yeah. Lieven: I don't know what neurodivergent audience are but I went into the hassle of asking ChatGPT and apparently what did they say they may implement policies, practices, and workplace adjustments that accommodate a diverse needs of neurodivergent individuals, creating an environment where everyone can thrive. And I told, nah, nah, it's a sell. So it's a sell. Joel: Lot of buzzwords there, kids. All right. Next up, London-based Zelt has raised $3.5 million in a seed funding round. Zelt offers an HR self-service platform that allows companies to manage HR, IT, and financial operations throughout the employee lifecycle. The platform automates processes such as HR, payroll, onboarding and expenses. The funding will help Zelt further build out its product and expand internationally. Chad buy or sell Zelt? Chad: Zelt is what I like to call rippling light. Why light you might ask. Well, rippling has taken 1.2 BABABA billion USD in funding and Zelt has taken 3.1 million euros. [chuckle] Big difference. Old and slow HRIS platforms will think twice about shelling out that high valuation bank to acquiring rippling, but those platforms could easily partner with Zelt, advise on the roadmap, introduce clients for piloting, and then buy Zelt for a song for goodness sakes. I see Zelt getting acquired sooner rather than later, which for me is why it is a buy. S?: All right, All right, All right. Joel: Honestly, I couldn't even get past the website. It's fucking crazy. Zelt.app, go check it out, no matter what. There's some sort of like exploding golden egg as you scroll through the site. I think there may be a seizure risk for some users on this website. Pricing is super low. Joel: There's even a QR code in the footer. Gee, how often do you see a QR code in the footer kids? So they've thrown the kitchen sink at this site sorry, but I don't feel confident in you. If I don't feel confident in a site in six seconds in the service from the website then I'm fucking gone. And this site made me wanna throw up. I was more likely to disco dance in the six seconds that I was on the website than buy their products and services. So for me, woo. Zelt is a sell. Lieven you are the tiebreaker. Lieven: I looked into them briefly and I was glad I'm in a different business. It all sounds very reliable, but it's dull and I'm sure it's a good thing given their business. But if I buy them, I would've to deal with them. So I'd rather not. So. Joel: All right. Let's go to Holland where Nipol has raised 1.5 million euros to develop digital coworkers that can integrate with various platforms such as Slack. Nipol's vision is to make AI accessible to all the workforce, starting with customer support teams. The company's gen AI technology enables digital coworkers to adapt to human needs and operate in the same environments as human employees. Chad, are you a buy or sell on Nipol? Chad: Founded in January of 2023. These kids haven't even broken in their little Dutch wooden shoes yet. If you like this site, well, if you take a look at the site, it looks like the claymation version of Mr. Rogers meets the Terminator. We've talked about virtual assistant platforms and how they will explode. And Nipol is a great example. They're taking a niche, a rather large niche like customer service and adding AI co-pilots into the mix. So if we've learned anything thus far from the Teleperformance AI co-pilot customer service platform, is that this system can contextualize and then index relevant information faster than a human, serving it up to the human at this point saying, I think it was like 30% more calls per person with the teleperformance business case. So for me, this is big. This is a hot, hot, hot area and it's big. It is a huge, it's a niche, but it's huge. And I like it from the standpoint of being disciplined, staying in that niche, and then also having the integrations with Microsoft Teams, Slack, WhatsApp, Zendesk, Freshdesk, and a ton of others. At the end of this baby, I am a Claymation Terminator Buy. I love it. I love it. Joel: All right. Nipol sounds like nipple, maybe Lieven can, can Wax poetic about that issue. Chad: So you're gonna buy right out of the gate, is that what I'm hearing? Lieven: Yeah. It sounds like nipple. I'm gonna buy. Joel: Nipol is into... S?: What are you doing Step-bro? Joel: You went into the wrong site though, to check this thing out. These digital coworkers are the stuff of nightmares. Like, go check this shit out. They're all like lifeless, black-eyed digital zombies. Like literally nightmarish. Chad: They're cute little Claymation things. Joel: Yeah. Your cute Claymation is my nightmare. So that was really hard for me to get around. I'm trying to get my head around a digital coworker. You love the co-pilot thing, I get that. Chad: Yes. Yes. I do. Joel: What scares me is the target audience. Like we talked a few weeks ago about a company in India that fired 90% of their customer service people and replaced them with AI. So to me, these digital assistants should be horror film fodder because they're coming to take the job, they're gonna roll this thing out as like, these are assistants. But in five years every assistant that these zombies are helping will be unemployed and these assistance will be the actual workers. Customer service is going the way of AI. And this is just a nice Trojan horse way to let people know that their jobs are being replaced. In that case, it's a pretty solid company. I just couldn't get past the zombie Black-Eyed nightmare, nightmare website. And I don't, they don't say anything about like, we're eventually gonna be your customer service. Right now it's just assistance. Chad: Of course not. Joel: So until they say... Chad: Yeah. Joel: Until they say We're pivoting, you can fire all your customer service people. I just can't bring myself to buy this company and I haven't slept since I looked at the website. So sorry. It's a sell. Chad: Selling Nipol. Joel: But I like the name. Lieven: Even though it sounds like nipple huh? I kind of like the idea, but to be honest, it just looks like they're going to put an entertainment layer on top of existing generative AI tools. So it's not like it's really new or anything. They're just creating... They're making it like... It's a bit like gamification of AI and it won't make it more efficient, but it's might make it more fun to use. So if people use it more often then it could work, anyways I would just buy them because I suffer from FoMO and I don't want to be the guy that missed the opportunity to invest in Nipol when I got the chance. Chad: Exactly. Lieven: So I buy it. S?: All right. All right. All right. Joel: All right. Amsterdam based Settly, an HR platform for employee relocation has secured 6 million euros in seed funding. Settly aids businesses and workers navigating the complexities of international moves. The funding will support expansion and an improved service in global markets. The startup says its diverse team and personalized approach have fueled 350% growth. Chad, are you a buy or sell on Settly? Chad: Have you ever used a relocation company like a moving company? They fucking suck. It's horrible from an experience standpoint. I think if you can create an experience that is wrapped around the actual company brand, this is fucking money. And it's a huge opportunity, especially in Europe and then being able to take that from Europe obviously to the United States, etcetera, etcetera. So I think there's a huge opportunity here for something that is... To be quite frank, just sucks. So to be able to really make your brand stand out to top talent that you're relocating 'cause you're not relocating not top talent. This is something that I think is incredibly smart and to be quite frank and easy sell when you go into an organization. So this is a buy for me. [applause] Joel: I'm shocked that the guy who just relocated to Portugal is in favor of a relocation service. [chuckle] But you're totally right like... Chad: Partially relocated. Joel: This is the world we live in. More and more companies going remote, more and more companies saying, Hey employee, go wherever you want. We're gonna support it. In fact, we have a service now that will help you go to wherever the hell you want, in a sort of turnkey fashion which is great. I have moved, I have done a corporate move and yes... It wasn't tough for me 'cause I was the one moving, but the company jumping through hurdles, moving companies, selling shit, company like everything was, a nightmare... Chad: It sucks. Joel: They had a, yeah, they put way too many resources in that shit. I'm sure they would've much preferred, to just given the money to a company that could do it, and do it right. So yeah, a world that's more remote, a world that's... Fewer kids are being born, people are having kids later. So kids aren't as much of an issue. People are getting married later. So there are more young people that wanna like, get out and, see the world. So this one on, many, many levels is an easy buy for me. S?: All right. All right. All right. Lieven: No, I totally agree with both of you. It's a market with tons of potential. It'll only grow. We have two companies in the group which are specialized in relocating people. Covebo in the Netherlands is hiring people in the Eastern European countries to get them at work, at their own clients in Western Europe. And it's always difficult to help those people integrate in your neighborhoods to, make sure they don't become ghettos. Because if you have 50 people in the same streets, the other people living in the streets will complain. So you have to spread them all around, but you have to make sure they got a decent living. They got... They are happy because we want them to stay happy. We want them to stay. It's hard. And we have the same with, Accent foreign in Belgium, a company, doing more or less the same thing, finding people and placing not clients. It's hard. So I'm not sure about the financials from this company. I didn't do a due diligence of course, but based on what I read, I definitely buy, it's only going to get better. [music] Joel: That is a triple buy everybody and that deserves a little careless whisper. I love it. All right. Chad: That's the easy button. Sexy right there. Joel: Let's go to our final contestant, Berlin based HR tech startup Propel has secured 2.5 million euros in funding to support its mission of providing benefits and job opportunities to tech communities. Propel offers a software as a service HR tech platform, known as, "community as a service." Ooh, clever. Which connects tech communities such as developer groups and talent incubators with job opportunities, benefits, and financial services. Chad, are you a buyer seller on Propel? Chad: Very Andela like. So hiring companies today are way too tactical or just too damn lazy to build real talent pipelining solutions themselves. So Propel is building them through partnerships with developer groups, talent incubators, training schools, etcetera. Propel works with 100 plus tech communities across 15 countries that serves roughly 400,000 members. That's why Propel turns this talent pipelining into an easy button for companies. They... I'm not even mentioning the diversity card here, which I think is also incredibly powerful. So for me, talent pipelining is something that companies have... They've gotten rid of. They don't know how to do, they don't know how to train. They don't know how to actually dig into these communities. So Propel, the Propels and the Andelas of the world are huge winners. This is a huge buy for me. [applause] Joel: Wow. That's an enthusiastic buy from Chad. A year ago, I might've dug this company. Today, we're in a world where companies don't need as many developers as they used to. Twitter, Facebook, Google, you name it. They're all relying on fewer technical people, fewer developers. More and more companies are following suit. The reality is AI is helping low-level developers become mid and high-level developers and there are less developers needed to do the job. There are so many freaking services to help companies find developers. Chad, you mentioned one, they're well-funded, they're well-known. Many are global. The competition to say it's fierce, is an understatement. 2.5 million euros is not gonna get it done for this company. Again, even just a year ago, I probably would've bought this thing. But for now, I just think the developer environment and hiring developers is so different than it was a year ago because of AI that I just think this company's timing is way off. For me, it is. Joel: So break the tie Lieven. Lieven: I understand your point on this, but for me it's a no brainer. It's a buy because, and this might sound cynical once again, but it's kind of initiatives that can survive solidly on subsidies and grants and plenty of multinationals are going to use their service just to mention it in their ESG reports. So just from that point of view, I think it can't go wrong, this will succeed. And I definitely believe companies like this can find and develop talent which otherwise would've gone to waste. And I know of an initiative in Belgium, in a very bad neighborhood in Brussels, where it's called Molengeek. And the community is called Molenbeek but Molengeek. It's a bunch of coders and they get kids from the street and they teach 'em how to code and they give them a shelter and they help them and it works. And I mean those, some of those kids really are talented and they get out from the streets and instead of putting cars on fire on a sunny Sundays afternoon, they now start hacking computers, which is much more... [chuckle] Lieven: Good for their careers, I guess. So, no, I think it's a buy. Joel: That escalated quickly. Chad: Lifting people up. I love it. S?: All right, All right. All right. All right. Joel: Lieven, we have to work on your, building up suspense. Like... [chuckle] Joel: You can't start-out buy or sell like, oh, this is an easy buy for me and then go into the reason. [chuckle] Joel: You're supposed to go into the reasons and then be like... Lieven: Yeah, I know. Chad: Joel, he's, European. You've gotta allow him to do his process while us dumb Americans do our process. There's a different story tellings. Joel: It's so bad. I wanna wait. I want a baited breath. What is he gonna give it? A buy or sell and you just come outta the gate like, oh, this is an easy buy for me. [chuckle] Lieven: Oh, we start from the end and then we slowly... Chad: There we go. I love it. Lieven: Build up again. Chad: I love your style Lieven. You don't quit. You don't quit you. Lieven: The lack of style. [chuckle] Lieven: Okay. Joel: Love the style. Love the style. Lieven and I are gonna go see Oppenheimer, although not together. Lieven: Yeah. Indeed. But I'm going to think about you while you are watching Oppenheimer and Joe. Chad: That's just creepy. Joel: 'Cause I am the bomb baby. We out. Chad: We out. Lieven: We out. Chad: So creepy. Lieven: [chuckle] Bye. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forward it to the end. Either way. There's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time, you could've used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell. Enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey. Or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckle heads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

Just when you thought you understood the definition of artificial intelligence, along comes generative A.I. Confusing? Yeah. That’s why we invited Thom Kenney, former Smashfly CEO and current director at Google on the show. T.K. helps us better understand what the hell is going on in the world today, including diving into the current writer’s strike in Hollywood, security concerns and what in the world comedian Sarah Silverman is so upset about. Put your thinking cap on for this one. TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps companies strengthen their workforce and broaden their market reach by hiring talent in the disability community. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HRs most dangerous podcast. Chad and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for The Chad Sowash and Cheese Podcast. [music] Joel: Oh, yeah. What's up everybody? You know what it is, it's your favorite guilty pleasure, The Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel. Joined as always, the peas to my carrots, Chad is here. [chuckle] Joel: And today we welcome Thom Kenney to the show. That's right. Former CEO at SmashFly. Chad: Ooh. Hello. Joel: Now Director at Google and forever a soldier, apparently. Thom, welcome to the podcast. Chad: Yeah, forever. Jesus. [laughter] Thom Kenney: Thanks Joel. Thanks Chad. [laughter] Joel: I sleep well at night knowing that Thom is on the case. Chad: Thom, how you been, man? Thom Kenney: I'm doing well. And you're safe for at least two days a month for what I do with the Army Reserve. So at least you got that to cover. Chad: Don't forget two weeks. Thom Kenney: Two weeks, two weeks in there. Chad: Two weeks during the summer, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Thom Kenney: That's true, that's true. So Summer side to protect you... Joel: He's calling in from an undisclosed bunker. We're not quite sure where Thom is at the moment, but we appreciate the time to sit down with us. Chad: Dude, you've been away from SmashFly, how long? Give us a little post on that, right? We heard you were CTO, went to CEO, acquisition happened, and then ejected. What happened after that? Thom Kenney: So what happened after that was COVID, which was a really, really interesting time for everybody. Chad: Now you're bringing me down. Jesus. [laughter] Thom Kenney: Well, but it's interesting, COVID changed a lot of different things, and for me it was really quite interesting. It's some time to reflect, some time to grow personally a bit. And out of the blue got this call from a venture capitalist friend of mine that said somebody needed some help with data and artificial intelligence. And having this reserve experience that I've had for so many years, the deployments that I've done overseas, it was a call from the Commanding General of Special Operations Command, a four star general. And guys like me in my rank in the reserves, don't get those calls very often. [laughter] Joel: Yeah. Chad: No. Thom Kenney: And he said, "Hey, come help me transform the command with data and AI." So I went and spent a couple of years with Special Operations Command. Transforming that organization, working with some of the most elite operators in the world. Chad: Yes. Thom Kenney: And helping the DOD in general kinda grow from a data and AI perspective. It was fantastic to, just over two years where an experience I would never get any other way, it was really, really interesting. Chad: So you're talking about the most elite groups, especially, I mean I wouldn't just say in the Army, but also in the military, because there's some sharing that happens there, and now their usage of AI, is that what I'm hearing? Because that to me is the coolest fucking thing ever. We've got like the guys who are physical, they're there, but then they have the intelligence and then also AI kind of like compressing all of that for them. Thom Kenney: Absolutely. And with the Special Operations Command, you had Navy folks, you had Marine Corps folks, you had Coast Guard folks, Air Force Army. It's a whole mix of different folks inside of the military that are doing these things. And it's eye-opening sometimes how this manifests itself. So for example, we set up a capability to be able to do data mining, data science, a little bit of machine learning on both unclassified and classified platforms, in a way where you could build a model and work with it in the unclassified world, and then seamlessly move it up into the classified world. And we opened that up to everyone inside of special operations. And after about six months of that, what was really, really interesting is, the number one set of users that we had by far were non-commissioned officers from the Marine Corps Special Operations teams. Chad: Wow! Thom Kenney: Right, and it was really interesting to see more than 50% of the users were from that specific cohort. They were just embracing it. What they could do with it from a personnel perspective, from a tactics perspective, from a learning perspective was just incredible to watch. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Thom, maybe it's all the doom scrolling I do every day. Maybe it's cause I'm a parent. Obviously the world is a very volatile place with Russia, China, Iran. I'm gonna ask you a big picture question that's unrelated to AI or employment. What is your take on the state of the world? Should I be so sleepless at night? Or should I be sleeping like a baby? Thom Kenney: This is Thom's personal opinion. Joel: Yep. Thom Kenney: And it's not based on anything I do anywhere else, but I don't think we have to sleep restlessly at night. I think we have to be cautious about what we do. I think we need to be deliberate about the decisions that we make and the leaders that we choose. But I don't think we have to necessarily be restless at night. And part of that is because we've created a world economy that's so intertwined, that any real significant moves that would be catastrophic on the world stage, especially from a war perspective, would impact the aggressors as much as the defenders. And we see some of that in Ukraine, we see some of that in Taiwan. And there's all the different conversations that are happening. The bigger concern from my perspective, is one of resources. And it's more a commercial risk than it is a military risk. Thom Kenney: Where we have limited resources and who controls those limited resources has a bigger impact on economies necessarily than it does on militaries. Now we have to be ready to stand and defend. The Army's mission is to fight and win the nation's wars and part of my job in the Army Reserve. But generally speaking, we are so intertwined that it would really take some, I'm gonna say maniacal intent, or some completely closed-minded attempt to go after a place where you're gonna bring the entire world into a world war. That's Thom's opinion. I could be completely wrong. Automated Voice: Alright, alright, alright. Joel: We can all rest everybody. Chad: Yeah, well. And I think a lot of that has to do with the amount of budget that is actually given to guys like Thom and our defense. I mean, we have more budget going to that than the next, I think nine nations, which I think seven are actually NATO. There you go, Joel. You should feel better. Joel: Almost more money than Google. Where Thom is also currently an employee. Chad: Let's talk about that. Joel: Tell us about that, Thom. Thom Kenney: Well, Google's got a trillion dollar valuation, so maybe not the same scale as the Department of Defense, but Google's a really interesting place. So, when General Clark retired from SOCOM, it was a good time for me, 'cause he and I were great partners down there. To find my next move, and there was an opportunity to go focus on artificial intelligence with some of the world's biggest customers, including the Department of Defense, the Department of State inside of the US. And it was a really interesting transition, going from typically my history has been in small to medium-sized business, either founding them or turning them around through acquisitions. And the DOD is a very, very large organization, and Google's a very large organization. So it's really, really fascinating to work with customers like Deutsche Bank and Siemens and the Department of Defense and Department of State, as they are on their own journeys for developing capabilities around artificial intelligence, advanced data, new ways of doing business, new ways of interfacing with customers. This is really an exceptionally interesting time to be involved in technology, with how much transition we're seeing across the entire technology landscape. Chad: Everybody is just fascinated by Bard and ChatGPT. Now everybody knows what a... And at least they think they know what a large language model is, for God's sakes. Today, obviously, Bard and you working with Google, a lot of these companies want to be able to find ways to actually integrate large language models or actually something that helps their process or helps co-pilot their employees. What are you doing around that? Is that really your major focus right now, or there are other programs and products and services that Google has that you're spending more time with? Thom Kenney: There are so many different ways to interface with Google. I mean, we've got more than 10 products that have over a billion unique users. The planet-scale size of what Google does is almost incomprehensible. And when you think about where Google's technology investments are, we own every inch of fiber that we use around the globe. All those undersea cables, all those data centers, that's all Google-owned and that allows us to be very, very specific with how we develop technologies that enable being able to have as many products that have billions of users around the world. But to your point, a lot of what people are looking at right now are in two buckets. There's the large language model, the generative AI-type software tools that are out there, that people are trying to figure out, how can I best use it? And then there's still the data question. And in particular, the data question, because we have so much information that we're creating every single day. And if you think about where we're going to be, we're gonna be calculating our data in zettabytes. Thom Kenney: And zettabytes is, it blows your mind to think that with the amount of information that we have in the world today, and that will be created in the next few years, there are not enough laptops and desktops and hard drives in the world today, that people use as consumers to have that much data. That's how much data we're creating. It's impossible, just think of all the laptops and all the desktops that are out there today, that still doesn't even have enough information to hold everything that the world is creating. So the impact of data may be one of those things that years ago, we were all talking about big data, and how do we get after big data? Thom Kenney: And then we had data lakes and data streams and lake houses and all these different things that are out there. It is that problem is not going away. The data problem is absolutely not going away. And as you think about generative AI, you've also got to think about how the data that feeds generative AI also has to be managed. So these two things are really intertwined significantly for the world's largest customers. So you think about banks transforming the way they work with their customers, or you think about a recruiting team that's trying to find the next best candidate or write those job descriptions, or you think about autonomous vehicles and how they can leverage large language models. These are all really interesting aspects. And one of the biggest challenges with large language models, if we tie it back to data, is the ability to stay up to date. So if you go on to Bard, if you go on to ChatGPT, and something happens in, let's say, North Korea, and it happened at six o'clock this morning, you're not necessarily gonna be able to use large language models to get output based on that, what happened in the morning, because the processing time is immense for keeping that stuff up to date, so that data aspect is huge. Chad: What about the security side of the house? Look at UKG, who just had a huge data security problem where they couldn't actually pay, they were being held ransom. A lot of this data is data that could prospectively be held ransom as well, and you're churning off new behaviors and even more data after you continue to crunch with all those GPUs, those NVIDIA GPUs. So what happens there? There's got to be a double, triple, quad down on security, right? Thom Kenney: There absolutely is. And where you look at where Google is, for instance, we're pioneers in this idea of Zero Trust. And it changes the way you think about security from basically edge security to trust no one security. Chad: Yes. Thom Kenney: For years we said, "Hey, we have a firewall and we've got rules on this firewall and you can't get into the firewall." Well, guess what? Once you're in past the firewall, a lot of networks have carte blanche access to a lot of different things. Chad: It's a bounty. Thom Kenney: So the Idea of Zero Trust goes beyond the edge. It says, okay, maybe you do get past an edge, but I still don't trust you. You wanna get access to a database. Okay. But I still don't trust you if you've got access to the database to get access to the data. And one of the most important aspects of how data security is transforming, is this idea of context. What is the context in which you're trying to access this data? For example, you are in Indiana most of your time, and you're accessing Gmail most of the time from Indiana. And then you take off and go visit a friend in Portugal, for example. Well, guess what? Somebody's gonna raise their hand on the security side and say, wait a minute, you're now in Portugal and we see this all the time with credit cards. Thom Kenney: Credit cards are doing this with fraud detection, right? I had this experience just recently. I'm in Kansas right now for the Army, and I'm trying to buy dinner while my daughter is in Boston, paying for her visa for her grad school in the fall in London. And all the fraud alerts are going off. Because they're looking at the context in which the transactions are happening. So as we look at Zero Trust, that context becomes really, really important. So that when you're talking about things like ransomware, the idea of phishing and spearing and the techniques that people use for social engineering to get access to networks, still doesn't necessarily give you the access once you're there because context becomes really important. The nature in which you're trying to access data becomes important. Joel: Sounds like we need to go deep, Thom. Automated Voice: Just the tip. Joel: Can you give me a definition, a layman's definition of Generative AI? 'Cause I think a lot of our listeners are still trying to get their head around AI, and now we're throwing generative in there. Give us a definition. Thom Kenney: So a very, very simple way to think about generative AI with things like large language models, is the probability by which something will occur. And by probability in large language models what I mean is, what's the probability that the word follows another word. And I've used this example before to say, if you have a sentence that says, an airplane needs, and then that next word, what's the probability that that word exists? Now, the more data that you have, the more you can conclude with probabilistic certainty what that next word will be. But still, there's a little bit of an open interpretation. An airplane needs wings, an airplane needs an engine, an airplane needs a pilot. There's lots of different words, but what's the probability of that word? And so, as you think about things, there's a term called an N-gram, and N is just a number. And it basically says, how many words am I looking ahead for Generative AI to try to create the probability that this will come out next? Thom Kenney: And that's how Generative AI is able to answer a question that says what is the best place for me to go on vacation, or write me an abstract for a conference paper I want to do, or write me a job description for a software engineer that I can send off to any of the job sites that exist. Chad: I mean, a lot of it has to do with probability. Okay. Thom Kenney: Correct. So it's, all of those things are just looking at the corpus of data that already exists and what's the probability of those outputs. So it's not really inventing anything, it's not really creating anything new. It's using probabilities based on information that already exists to summarize data that's out there. Joel: So ChatGPT is less than a year old, and are you surprised at how it's taken off? And if you had to predict what it looks like a year from now, Bard will still be less than a year old a year from now. I mean, could you just give us a sense of how fast this is happening and how we human beings can wrap our head around it. Thom Kenney: So it's a misunderstanding to think ChatGPT is only been around for a year. The reality is it's been publicly available in its current form with Microsoft for a year. But OpenAI, the company that was started quite a number of years ago, has been working on this type of generative transformer for a while, for many, many, many, many years. As a matter of fact, at SOCOM in 2021, we did a hackathon with an earlier version of ChatGPT, and saw some really, really incredible results for what it was able to do even in that early version. So for me personally, I am not at all surprised. Not at all surprised. For a couple of reasons. Number one is, it really does seem like magic when you think about how this is actually working in the background, it's really kinda magical. Thom Kenney: And second, everyone's looking for ways to do things easier, faster, simpler. But we're also introducing some really interesting new technologies too. So there's the second and third order of effects of this too. So think about ChatGPT writing a paper for school, right? You go into college and all these professors are thinking, "Oh my God, I've got all this ChatGPT stuff, and I need to know whether or not somebody's using that to write a paper." Joel: Yeah. Thom Kenney: Well, there's an MIT student who came up with something called GPTZero. And GPTZero uses the same sort of paradigms to detect the patterns that ChatGPT uses to determine the probability of whether or not this paper was written by ChatGPT. Okay. Now enter another tool called Quill. Well, if you take your output from ChatGPT and then you run it through QuillBot, well guess what? GPTZero doesn't really know anymore, whether it's ChatGPT. Joel: Like a mole... [laughter] Thom Kenney: 'Cause you took the summary and the paraphrase and put it through a summarizer and a paraphraser that is now undetectable. So you think about those things, and even from my perspective, I've now gotten two invites to speak at conferences based on abstracts that ChatGPT wrote. [laughter] Chad: Yeah. So, okay, let me throw this at you. This is real world stuff right now. We've got these screen actors, we've got the writers, we've got, they're afraid of all of this, and they should be, and in a couple of different reasons. Number one, the writers, they're worried that AI, it's good now, but it could be great in just a few years, which means long-term, they could be easily out of a job, at least a good amount of them. Secondarily, we have actors and we've talked to Ryan Steelberg, who's the CEO of Veritone, who's actually cloned our voices. That digital clone means something, not just from a voice standpoint, but also from a visible standpoint, from a video, from a clone, from a deep fake standpoint. Where do we go from here? Does legislation just have to finally kick in? Are we gonna have to wait till Europe does something because the US is just sitting on their hands? What's going on with this? Because there are significant issues that could happen start today, which have and really impact us in just a few years, or maybe even months. Thom Kenney: Maybe even months. And that there's a whole lot to unpack with that. So let me start first with the actors, the Screen Actors Guild, AFTRA, the strike that's going on right now. They do have every concern to be worried on one level, because the ease of which you can write a script today is so much simpler with tools like ChatGPT or Bard or any of the other large language model... Chad: 'Cause they're just crunching other scripts, right? Thom Kenney: They're just crunching other scripts. Chad: Yeah. Thom Kenney: And you could make an argument that there are certain television channels that are known for saccharine movies, right? They've got a very predictable. Chad: Hallmark channel. Joel: You're saying that like it's a bad thing, Thom. Chad: Joel's Hallmark channel. He loves the Hallmark channel. Joel: Nothing like a good holiday romance, Thom. Thom Kenney: I wasn't gonna say it, I wasn't gonna say it. Joel: That's right. Hallmark Channel... Thom Kenney: So there are repetitive ways to pull these things out, right? But on the flip side of it, there are opportunities here for folks that can take a core of something that's created with a large language model and then expand it in their, with their own vision and their own ideas. So there's still a lot of creativity, because part of this is when you look at all of this data, and this is something I've chatted about with some friends and with my wife, and we sit around and think about big things. If all of the information that we start to create with large language models is only based on information that we have already created as humans, are we gonna get to a point we're gonna stagnate with creativity? Because are we just gonna continue to regurgitate what we've already created? Thom Kenney: Will Artificial Intelligence get to a point of set chance where it truly can create something purely original, just like a human would? I think that's a little bit further down the line. But we may enter into the trap in the near term that says we're just regurgitating and regurgitating and regurgitating, because that's what we're feeding the models. And then in kind of mindset of self licking ice cream cone, that same data that's being created by the large language models is going back into the corpus of data that's feeding the large language models. So as we do more and more and more of large language model development, more and more of that is being fed into the large language models to do more large language model output. So you can see that this just starts creating more and more and more and more automated content that's been generated. Thom Kenney: And what does that mean from a creativity standpoint long-term? So for the actors, for call center operators, for a lot of different occupations, there is a question of how much of this is going to remove the work that I've done as a creative person. And that's, you're not gonna get away from the answer that says some of it. Now, is it 10%? Is it 90%? Is an open question, but some of it is, the writers and the actors who embrace this type of technology will have an advantage in my opinion, because they can leverage the technology to build on their own creative base long-term. Chad: Well, and also think about scalability. And again, something else that we talked to Ryan about at Veritone is that, let's say for instance, Brad Pitt, his voice in other languages is not his voice, right? But if again, it's a cloned, a digital clone of his voice, then he can actually, you can get Brad Pitt's voice, but also he can get paid on that, right? And then we start... Thom Kenney: He can. Chad: Then we start to get into the multimodal piece where we start taking in information that's video, pictures, all that other fun stuff. And then we start generating clones that are more than just voice. And then at that point, again, as an actor, I could prospectively scale instead of CGI. We've got, I've got my digital clone out there working for me. Now it might work for less, but from a scalability standpoint, who gives a shit? Thom Kenney: I would give a shit. Chad: Yeah? Thom Kenney: And here's why. Chad: Okay. Thom Kenney: Because if you... If Tom Hanks is one of my favorite actors. Chad: Oh, yeah. Thom Kenney: I really enjoy Tom Hanks. He's got a great repertoire and he is got a great range that he can do, but he's in a lot of movies. Chad: Yes. Thom Kenney: And you'd be hard pressed to say that there are no actors that could have been just as good, if not better than Tom Hanks in some of the movies that he's done. And when you think about that, that scalability, let's assume for a moment we can take a Tom Hanks or a Tom Cruise or a Brad Pitt, and we could use their likeness. Look at how young Harrison Ford was in his last movie, with some of the multimodal digital impact that they were able to do with Artificially Intelligent agents. Thom Kenney: When you get that kind of scalability, do you then also decrease the range of creativity? If every movie that we produce only has three actors, are we really still a creative culture? Or are we just regurgitating more of the same? And that's one of the risks that I think the Screen Actors Guild and AFTRA, the script writers, the actors are seeing, is that as this expands, to your point, maybe they get paid less, but they could scale. So if you're doing a hundred movies at a million dollars a piece, you don't have to do 10 movies at $10 million a piece, right? You're still earning the same amount of money, but are you decreasing the creativity level of Hollywood in general? I think we absolutely open up the door to decreasing the creativity level, but it's not just there with the screen actors, it's across books, right? How many children's books are written by artificially intelligent agents and language models? Chad: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Thom Kenney: How many fiction novels are gonna be written? Are we creating this world where the majority of what is output is only based on what we've done before? We really start to narrow that creativity bond, and that decreases our value in my mind as a human species of thinking outside the boundaries of what we already know to be true by pushing the limits of where we need to go. Joel: Well, the good news is Thom, we could bring the dead back. So Elvis, John Wayne and Janis Joplin. Thom Kenney: Yes. Joel: Can all start putting out new content in a minute now. Chad: Oh, no. No. [laughter] No. Joel: Back to the Screen Actors Guild, and I think we focus a lot on the Tom Cruise's and the big money stars. Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: It's the little guys to me that are gonna get squashed. Chad: Oh, yeah. Joel: The extras in the background... Chad: And the up-and-comers who aren't gonna get that role. Yeah. Thom Kenney: Yes, absolutely. Joel: Talk about your take on what happens to them. And I think if we take this full circle to employment, we know many of the recruiting activities can be monotonous and can be replaced. What happens to recruiting? What happens to HR tech that can maybe be replaced? Talk about the little guy and how it impacts ultimately our business. Thom Kenney: If we think about the little guy in the Screen Actor's Guild, for example. You lose the next Tom Cruise, you lose the next Tom Hanks, you lose the next Julia Roberts or Dame Judi Dench. You lose those folks because exactly to your point, they never have an opportunity to grow, because we're capitalizing on characters that are created by actors that we already know and are already trusted as money makers inside of the industry. Joel: So can I push back on that and say... Thom Kenney: Sure. Joel: TikTok and Reels will be where the next famous people come from. We don't need Hollywood to be that incubator, because we have social media and TikTok. Isn't that where the next big stars come from? Thom Kenney: Those are different stars. Joel: Okay. Thom Kenney: If you think about what it takes to actually do a movie, and Tom Hanks actually has a really interesting short documentary about this. The level of effort that goes into an actual movie is absolutely ginormous. It's huge. The impact of putting together a 30 second TikTok is actually very small. The benefit of the TikTok-tors that have grown and have grown a huge base, have done so because they've created a story arc for themselves. It hasn't been one particular video. It's been a series of videos, and they've captured the attention of folks that are there. Thom's personal opinion, I think that's different than a storytelling adventure, which is creating something out of nothing. Game of Thrones on TikTok is a lot harder to create than Game of Thrones in a production studio. It's not impossible, but I think it's a lot harder to produce inside of there. Thom Kenney: And I think TikTok ties into, again Thom's personal opinion, the more immediate gratification realm that people want, whether it's through doom scrolling or just scrolling through videos, you can move very, very quickly. It doesn't take a lot of attention to watch a 20 second TikTok video. And then you can get caught up in the links to those videos and the different marketing and advertising that can be done. But it's different than a large content. Just like if you're gonna try to write War and Peace with ChatGPT, it may not be as easy as you think. Chad: Yeah. Thom Kenney: That is a tome of a story. Joel: Or Hamlet. I could see Broadway and actual in-person actors thriving in this environment. Thom Kenney: Absolutely. Joel: But anyway, I sidetracked you from recruitment and how this is gonna impact that. Thom Kenney: You did. You did. Joel: So sorry, sorry. Go on. Thom Kenney: As you get into the recruiting side of things, or even just HR tech in general, Conversational AI is one of those things that started as sort of a small little idea a few years ago. And conversational AI is everywhere now. And I think it's comical sometimes too. You look at the value of a company like Paradox and then the incredible work that they're doing inside of this market. Joel: Right. Thom Kenney: And try to say, Oh, well, I'm just gonna create a Paradox replacement with ChatGPT. No, you're not. It's not gonna happen, right? Because there's this concept of things like hallucinations and zero shots, large language models. When you're thinking about it from a recruiting perspective, you've gotta be really, really careful about these things like hallucinations. And I'll explain a little bit about what that is. It's basically a large language model that just makes stuff up or says stuff that's offensive. Chad: It's predicting, right? And prediction isn't always true. Joel should know that. Thom Kenney: Not always true, and not always DEI safe. Joel: Yeah. There is that... Thom Kenney: To use that kind of work. Joel: There's that. Yeah. Thom Kenney: We have a lot of books that were written that are incredibly offensive, incredibly racist, that are part of the way these large language models are being built up. So if we think we're just gonna, throw a quick large language model in and you're gonna have a ChatBot, and that ChatBot's gonna be your new recruiter, you're opening yourself up to a lot, a lot of risk. There is so much work that needs to go into ensuring that candidate experience is the best possible experience. Because we may have had some layoffs, we may have some hiccups in the economy, but the reality is we still have a fairly low unemployment rate. We still have a highly competitive market for really, really good talent. And that candidate experience is not decreasing in importance over time. Thom Kenney: It's absolutely not decreasing. But what we can do is we can use these large language models and companies that are doing really, really good work with large language models, to enhance that experience. It doesn't mean that we have to replace it, it means that we can enhance it. Now when we think about humans versus automation, I would say when you think about high volume recruiting, great opportunity where you don't necessarily need a human to spend hours and hours and hours. Chad: Yes. Thom Kenney: Doing interviewing and doing background checks and doing question and answer sessions, that's a great opportunity to apply something like Conversational AI to some of that high throughput. But we also have to be careful too, because if you look at what happened with AWS a few years ago, when they tried to automate resume reviews. Chad: Oh, yeah. [laughter] Thom Kenney: It didn't go exactly how they planned. Chad: Oh, no. Thom Kenney: So we still need. Chad: Yes. Thom Kenney: Yeah. Car crash, train wreck, and a number of ways to look at it. So we've gotta be very, very careful about how we apply some of these technologies to ensure that we're not introducing bias, that we're not introducing prejudices, that we're not introducing any of the pitfalls that you've got by letting tech to sort of run a mock without any sort of constraints or measurements. Chad: Well, that being said, let me throw this out there, 'cause Paradox is one thing. They're becoming a platform, even like core, core platform. Thom Kenney: Yes. Chad: Then you've got a Textio, right? That to me, today seems more like a feature than a platform. Especially when you've got these large language models that are out there. Now, they do have domain-specific data in power. No question. But if you have other organizations that are out there that might be behind Textio right now, and Textio is a very expensive product, 42.5 million in funding, that might do some of it. But at the end of the day, how quick could an organization catch up to a Textio, which is not really platform-specific, it just seems more futuristic? Thom Kenney: It depends on what you're trying to do with the technology. And I say that very specifically because you can slap anything together very quickly today with a large language model, it really doesn't take a lot of effort. What takes effort is the psychological side of how you're interacting with candidates, for example, just having technology slapped with a nice little web UI interface, and you've got some JavaScript and you pop up this little ChatBot, it's very easy to get back to the days, 10 years ago, where people hated working with those ChatBots. Lots of major companies were out there, it's like, "How can I help you today?" "Oh, well, I've got a question about my bill." "Oh, you've got a question about Bill. Bill can be at your house in three hours," it's like, "No, that's not what I said at all." Joel: Here's a link to search results about Bill questions. Chad: [chuckle] About Bill... Thom Kenney: About Bill questions, exactly. And as we think about this, the aspect of how your interface and the folks becomes so important now and becomes the differentiator. So as I think about how quickly could someone create something like this, it really is about how good are you going to leverage the technology from a psychological perspective that enhances the candidate experience. Because it'll be very, very quick to lose the candidate experience with a really bad product, but it's really, really easy to create a very bad product today. In this particular context, when you're trying to interact live with humans, it's not gonna take much to build a bad product. Joel: Keeping it in Hollywood a little bit, Sarah Silverman, one of my favorite comedians is in a lawsuit right now for AI using her image, I guess, or her content. This is obviously gonna play on, it reminds me a little bit about the early days of YouTube, where people would just put everything on that was trademarked and copyrighted, and there was tons of lawsuits and that all got settled. Does this go a similar route? Or do you see the lawsuits and how this plays out differently than maybe YouTube did? Thom Kenney: I see this plays out a little differently than YouTube, because there is some specificity about what Sarah is suing for. It's suing for where she believes information that was copyright protected was being used in the large language models. And that's an important differentiation, I think, from just using things that are publicly available. When you think about YouTube, what's copyrighted, a politician's speech, if you're recording a politician speaking in a public forum, they can't copyright that, because you as part of how you can operate in a free society, is you can post something that you video that was in the public domain. Thom Kenney: Sarah's arguing that you use things that are not in the public domain, that I sell books, I sell tickets to my comedy show, those are a trade between a customer and a provider, you've paid me to get a value for something. So Sarah's argument is, you've used things that are not free to build your large language model that you are now making money from. So that I think is... There's a little bit of a nuance difference between how YouTube kind of grew. But I would tie it into more with what happened with music 20 years ago with all the peer-to-peer music sharing. Chad: That's true. Yeah. Thom Kenney: The App Store for example. That was a great example of using copyrighted material to forward the use in a way that it was never intended. And there's a reason today why Apple Music is doing as well as they do, because they sell for a very modest cost access to this huge world of information, but the music producers still get a benefit, a financial benefit from that. In Sarah's case, she's arguing, "I'm getting no financial benefit," and it's not just Sarah Silverman, there are communities of artists, for example, that are suing some of the image generative AI tools, that are producing likenesses. Thom Kenney: So you can argue folks like Monet, it's now in the public domain, to, "Hey, take my picture on vacation in Faro, Portugal and make it look like a Monet painting." But for artists that are alive today who own the copyright, on the property of their art work, that art work that's available on a website that's being scraped and used to then create a likeness of that art is a different type of challenge that's gonna be seen in the courts. If one group of people is gonna make more money than anybody else in the world of generated AI, it's gonna be the lawyers. Chad: Oh God, yeah. So, Ron DeSantis used a Trump AI voice, so it wasn't Trump, but it was his AI modulated voice, let's say, his voice clone, in a commercial, it's pretty much against Trump at this point. Now, usually they would use voice actors that sound like the politician. At this point we're saying, Well, we generally would use voice actors. That's okay. So why can't we use AI? When are we going to draw a line in the sand on this? Or can we just because of past precedent? Thom Kenney: My personal belief is we're not gonna be able to draw a line. Chad: Yeah. Thom Kenney: Because to draw the line, you need legislation. You need a law to cross that line to have impact. And the challenge that we have today is the understanding for the general public of large language models, is sparse. They know what large language models are, they can use them, they can employ them. But the ins and outs of the technical aspect of what it does is a fairly complex set of equations and technologies. And being at Google, I don't even understand a lot of the ways that this works. The folks that are working on this are absolutely brilliant visionaries. Chad: Yeah. Thom Kenney: The challenge next is, how do we get this into a legislative form that could be enforced so that people could cross that line. We as a society in general across the world know that this is a concern. But what's the right reaction to this? The EU is taking a certain approach to this. The US is taking another approach to this. Some other countries are taking no approach to this at all and just allowing it to happen. And part of it too is thinking about how do we control the information that exists in our countries? And I'll give you a quick example of this. In the United States, we have rules that protect the privacy of our citizens. We have rules that protect copyright. We have rules that protect data. So building these large language models, even though it seems like it's an infinite amount of information, it actually is a small corpus of data relative to all the potential data that exists. Other countries don't have these limitations. So if you look at how China operates, they don't necessarily have the same privacy protections on their citizens as we do. They don't have the same privacy protections on data as we do. Chad: Oh, no. Thom Kenney: So their ability to train a large language model actually has quite a large corpus of data that extends beyond what we have. Chad: Right. Thom Kenney: To be able to move this forward. So we're in a world where, let's say, for example, we put legislation in place and there is a line that's crossed that said you cannot use an artificially intelligent agent to mimic the voice of a sitting or a former president, saying words that they've never said with the intent to deceive or to misinform, right? That's a pretty strong statement, right? And I'm not saying that Ron DeSantis did this, but that's kind of where the legislation would look to go. How do you protect the American people from misinformation or disinformation that can be easily generated by an artificially intelligent agent? But who's to say that we couldn't build that same type of thing in another country that doesn't have the same protections to its citizens. Chad: And use it... Yes. And then use it... And then also from our standpoint, use it against other countries. And then obviously they could use it against us because we have our own rules. Thom Kenney: Correct. Correct. Chad: Doesn't mean that they're gonna abide by our rules a.k.a Cambridge Analytica and Facebook. Joel: That escalated quickly. Thom Kenney: And drawing this back to Joel's question earlier, about should we sleep well at night or not? The misinformation, disinformation side of things, is probably a much bigger threat than any sort of kinetic activity, because we've already seen how powerful misinformation and disinformation can be. Chad: Oh yes. Thom Kenney: On the global stage. Chad: Yes. Joel: All right, Thom, I'm gonna end on this. It's a simpler question, but no less important. Thom Kenney: Okay. [laughter] Joel: How do these companies monetize? How does ChatGPT make money? How does Google Bard, which is in a really tight situation, 'cause they already have a printing press for money, [laughter] how do they monetize these businesses? Thom Kenney: If you look at the way that ChatGPT has monetized, they've basically said, we have a free version, the freemium model that then ties you into wanting more. That gets you into a paid model. And last I checked, I think ChatGPT is $20 for the premium model that gets you access to version four. People who are doing this professionally, if you think about going back to writers, going back to recruiters doing job ads, going back to folks that are writing policy documents for the government, the ability to have a tool that helps you over time is a way to monetize this going forward. The ability to jump into ChatGPT and say, Write me an abstract for a conference that I wanna talk to that highlights these three points for this particular audience, saves me a ton of time, that's worth 20 bucks a month for me, as an example, for something like the ChatGPT. On the commercial side for businesses, there's a whole new side of things that Google is working on called Enterprise search, which helps use large language models, find your data much, much more easily. Thom Kenney: There's a whole enterprise world that we are just now starting to tap, that gives you that ability to look more deeply into your information that you've already got. And we'll use the government as an example. Imagine a tool that moves from Boolean search into something that's truly a generative search, that looks through every page of the US code, which is massive. You're getting to a world where you don't necessarily need a law degree to be able to start understanding a little bit more about the law. And you're opening up people's minds and people's abilities. And then think about it from the policy perspective for the government, if the government can use this type of technology, and the ways that Google is thinking about this long term, with accessing the world's information in new and ingenious ways. Now with tax codes where you have multiple, multiple replicative and duplicative parts of the tax code, just because the tax code's so big, policymakers can make things more simple for the average American everyday. And that opens up opportunities for monetization as well, right? Chad: All we need is a chip in our head at this point because we are in the matrix. I can learn how to fly a fucking helicopter. This shit happens overnight. Joel: We're in a world where I need a nonstop dose of Tylenol, Thom. [laughter] Automated Voice: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. [laughter] Joel: Thom, for anyone out there that wants to connect with you or learn more about what you do, where would you send them? Thom Kenney: I would send them either to LinkedIn, Thom Kenney, or you can check me out on Twitter @tclmc5. Joel: Chad, that is another one in the can. I learned a new word. Zettabytes. [laughter] Automated Voice: 60% of the time, it works every time. Joel: And with that, we out. Chad: We out. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast, or maybe you cheated and fast-forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could've used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey, or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckle heads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

Elon is just the gift that keeps on giving, isn’t he? But this week is particularly special as Twitter, er, X, or whatever, has gone through a rebrand, and more importantly, getting into recruitment with the launch of Twitter Hiring. Not to be outdone, Google is set to launch a full-on PPC solution for its Google for Jobs offering. How will Indeed and others respond? We discuss. What’s more, DEI initiatives are on life-support according to a recent Wall Street Journal article and Eons 2.0 is here in the form of Peppermint. And in China, young adults becoming perma-children as a form of employment is now a thing. Yeah, really. By the way, Chad is back in the USA after his stint in Europe, and let’s just say the disappointment is strong, which you’ll see on our YouTube channel. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. Music: Welcome back. Welcome back. Welcome back. Joel Cheesman: He's back, baby. Speaker 1: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Joel Cheesman: Oh, yeah. It's National Hamburger Day. That means White Castles for breakfast, Big Macs for lunch, and Whoppers for dinner. What's up, boys and girls? You're listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. This is your co-host, Joel "old-timer with" Cheesman. Chad Sowash: This is Chad "Euro Chad will return" Sowash. Joel Cheesman: And on this week's show, Elon is X-rated, DEI goes down, and Google for jobs marches on. Let's do this. [laughter] Speaker 1: USA, USA, USA, USA, USA. Joel Cheesman: Oh my God, dude. The picture of you on the socials, in the airport, coming back to the US, man. Just salty, salty, salty. Chad Sowash: Hating it, hating it, hating it. I mean... But I gotta say, what a great two-and-a-half months away in Europe. All the different countries that we visited were very, very different. Yet all incredibly welcoming in their own way. We went to... Had some time on the islands of Madeira, which are just fucking gorgeous. Joel Cheesman: Yep. Chad Sowash: And a week in Vienna, a week in Krackow, a few days in Stamford, England. Then on our way to RecFest for an amazing event. After RecFest, we actually hosted friends at our place in the Algarve for a week. And then after that, we had a week-and-a-half of absolutely nothing, until we got back stateside, just yesterday. So it was a great, great time. Next time, I think we're gonna spend the entire time just at home, on the southern coast of Portugal. Joel Cheesman: Yeah. So let's break down the world tour for the rest of the year. You're in the States for like a couple months? Chad Sowash: Yeah, until Paris, baby... Until Unleash, Paris, which we'll talk about in advance. And then we'll be out and about, in about then. But if listeners... Obviously, you've been keeping track. I've had different backgrounds every week for the last two-and-a-half months, whether I was in Krackow, Vienna. We were in a fricking hotel rooms in England. Joel Cheesman: Yep. Chad Sowash: You were in Liverpool and I was in Knebworth. Joel Cheesman: Yep. Chad Sowash: But yeah, we're all over the place, having a great time and just trying to live the life, baby. Joel Cheesman: Well, I'm glad to have you back. No more crazy time zone shit, like regular time. And I'm sure your dogs are glad to see you. Chad Sowash: Yes. They know that they get away with a little bit more the first week that we're home. So, they're enjoying that as well. All three of 'em. Joel Cheesman: All let's get to it. Speaker 1: Shout out. Chad Sowash: All right. I'm gonna roll into shout outs if you don't mind, right out of the gate. And this is gonna be very, very tearful. First shout out to Julie Sowash. So the pinnacle of the trip... And you're gonna find this to be quite hilarious after what I just said... Was building a shed with my wife. Yes. So we needed a shed. So I took the measurements, and I asked Julie... Joel Cheesman: Not a tent? Chad Sowash: No, a shed. Joel Cheesman: Okay. Chad Sowash: A shed. Yeah, shed. And the fucking thing must have been made by Ikea. There were so many pieces for no apparent goddamn reason. The directions were total shit. So over a two day and nine hour build, which should have taken about four hours. We didn't have one fight. Nobody raised their voices. And it was... It wasn't marital bliss, but I tell you what, shout out to the true test of marital patience and love: That's Ikea, or building a fucking shed like this. So shout out to Julie Sowash. Speaker 1: All right. All right. All right. Joel Cheesman: Yeah, that's definitely like, Euro Chad, laid back. Chad Sowash: Oh yeah. Joel Cheesman: Beach front... Like, that Columbus, Indiana. It's like full-blown, karate fight. It's different here, here back in the States. Well, my first shout out goes to a fallen monster, if you will. So we both remember the days of Super Bowl ads and... Chad Sowash: Yep. Joel Cheesman: Parties and zeppelins and all kinds of stuff. Well, you think Monster is dead. Well, think again, Chad. Think again. They've announced that they will remain the official job board of the Boston Red Sox through 2023 and into 2024. As part of the partnership, they'll release a comedic short film called, "The mascot within", featuring the Red Sox mascot, Wally. News to me. The film follows Wally's journey to discover his perfect job at Fenway Park with the help of, you guessed it, Monster.com. Fans also have a chance to win special game seats and a VIP tour of Fenway Park. Who needs Super Bowl ads? Monster is back, baby. Go Sox, who are closing in on last place in the AL East, by the way. The Yankees are in the basement, just in case you're wondering. I know you've been gone from America for a while. Probably not a lot of Yankees news in Portugal. Chad Sowash: Yeah. No, no, no. A lot of New York Yankees hats, though. Nobody knows what they are, but they know it's New York, so it's... Joel Cheesman: Yeah. Chad Sowash: It's got a great brand. It's funny because the Monster's mascot Trump, they don't have anymore. So they had to use somebody's mascot. Might as well be the Red Sox. I want to shout out to Listener Love. So being gone for the last two-and-a-half months, we've been lucky enough to have some presents just pile up around here. Joel Cheesman: I love listener love. Chad Sowash: First and foremost was a bottle of Woodford Reserve Double Oaked. Joel Cheesman: Oh, c'mon now. Speaker 1: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Chad Sowash: From Mike Fitzsimmons over at Crosschq. And then, I got two bags of my favorite Turkish coffee with proper coffee cups, the actual Turkish coffee cups, from Maya Huber and our friends over at Tadio. And not to be outdone, our friend Evan White... Get ready for this kids... Sent a 2.75 liter... Look at that... 2.75 liter... Joel Cheesman: That escalated quickly. Chad Sowash: Bottle of Eagle Rare to Julie. Joel Cheesman: Two five liters, okay? Chad Sowash: Yes, yes. To Julie, which detailed that this bottle could help her through the struggles of being my wife, which I thought was hilarious. Now, a normal sized bottle... Look, you gotta see normal sized bottle, 750 milliliters. This is almost two and a half times that. I mean, Evan was not fucking around, kids. So shout out to Mike Maya and our friend Evan. Joel Cheesman: Evan is getting a lot of use outta that Costco card, that's all I'm saying. [laughter] That's the only place I could think, that you could get that big of a bottle. Chad Sowash: Yes. No shit. Right? Right? Joel Cheesman: Of eagle Rare. Jesus [laughter] Jesus. Speaker 1: . All. Right. All right. All right. Joel Cheesman: All right Chad, my next shout out. You don't normally think of fast food when it comes to saving the planet [laughter], but QSR Magazine is predicting restaurants will lead the green charge. That's right. While it only takes five minutes to fill up your gas tank, it takes up to 30 minutes to charge your car. And restaurants like Subway and Starbucks, are betting that you'll come in to charge and get a snack while you're waiting. More than 84 million people eat at quick serve restaurants, every day in the US. I'm one of those 84 million on most days, anyway. And more and more locations are hoping you'll make your choice based on a cheap charge. Shout out to fast food restaurants, greening the world. Chad Sowash: And I gotta say the Midwest could actually say that it is the capital, the fast food capital, of the world. Because I think that that is probably 99.9% of the restaurants that we have here in flyover country, by the way. Joel Cheesman: Yeah, yeah. Look, either gas stations are gonna have to become more sit down, hang out, wifi places, or yeah, like restaurants are perfect opportunities to build these out. And they had nice little drawings. If you want to Google, "QSR fast food EVs", like new subways look like the old root beer place, the A&W. Chad Sowash: Oh yeah. A&Ws yeah. Joel Cheesman: And the... So it's like you park your car, plug it in, order a sandwich and a Sarsaparilla. Like, sounds like heaven to me, I'm in. [laughter] I'm down, I'm down. Chad Sowash: Does the wait staff, do they roll around on skates? I mean, 'cause that that was a thing. Joel Cheesman: Well, by then there'll be robots and the robots will probably just wheel around and... Chad Sowash: Ah, good call. Joel Cheesman: Yeah, and we won't have people at these places. Chad Sowash: Yeah. But what we will have, Joel, is t-shirts. So the social... All over the socials, they've been blowing up with Chad and Cheese T-shirt sightings. PhD, Andrea Dehrler Duerr over at Visier, our favorite turnover contagion specialist. Also Melissa Bordas and Catherine Henry, all sporting the new Chad and Cheese threads on the socials. Shelly Billinghurst created a new recruitment Flex logo wearing Chad and Cheese, while drinking a bourbon. Very apropos Shelly, very apropos. And last but not least, Bill Fanning sent me a message and he said, "We made the t-shirts too soft. His wife keeps stealing his." Well, you know what Bill, mission accomplished. That's right. But you cannot win a Chad and Cheese t-shirts from our friends at JobGet, if you don't register at chadcheese.com. Just click the free link in the header, and there you go. But wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. What else can you win, Joel? There there's more, right? Joel Cheesman: Oh my. Not just t-shirts... And by the way, Bill, you can never go too soft or too hard. Speaker 1: What are you doing Step bro? [laughter] Joel Cheesman: That's right. And we can announce this month's winners actually. Stacy Shaw was our whiskey winner from our friends at Textkernel. Colin Parker is our beer winner from Aspen Tech Labs. And our rum with Plum, celebrating her birthday, was Suzanne Parham this month. So yes, but you can't win if you don't play, kids. Chad Sowash: What about our getaway? We need a getaway winner. Joel Cheesman: I'm passing that to you after I say you gotta go to chadcheese.com/free. But that's not all you can win, Chad. Chad Sowash: That's right. You can actually win a $250... That's right, $250 Airbnb card for a getaway from our friends at Abode HR. They are the specialists in being able to help you get your GenZ-ers in place. That's right. Abode HR, $250 Airbnb card. You gotta go to chadcheese.com. Click on free, register, all of that booty. The bounty of that booty could be yours. Maybe. [laughter] Joel Cheesman: All the booty. By the way, we don't say it enough, but if you haven't left us a review on your favorite podcast platform of choice, please do so. Whether it's positive or negative, we love the feedback. Chad Sowash: Give it. Joel Cheesman: No matter what. No matter what. Here, it is. [laughter] Speaker 1: Can you feel the tension in the air right now, [laughter]? I know I can. I can feel it all the way down in my plums. Joel Cheesman: A few fans are celebrating another trip around the sun with a birthday this week. That includes Dustin Carper, Jeremy Bright, Drew Field, Jim Schneider, Joe Wilke, Mary Lanahan, Sarah Berlin, Ashley Smith, Julia Levy, Damon Ashley, Brian Cheney, Crystal Ley, Marin Hogan... Wow. Jason Besier and... Speaker 1: Takeoff, Lee. We're doing our movie. Don't wreck our show you Hozer. Joel Cheesman: That's right. You mentioned Shelly, but Sayers Boudreaux is also celebrating a birthday. So happy... Speaker 1: Happy birthday. Joel Cheesman: Happy birthday everybody. Happy birthday. Chad Sowash: That's right. That's right. Guess what time it is? Joel Cheesman: Oh. Chad Sowash: Shaker Recruitment Marketing. We are on the road again, RecFest, Nashville on September 13th and 14th. The Chad and Cheese will emceeing the Disrupt stage. We're gonna be there all of day one. There's two days, two days. All of day one. We get a rest on the Sabbath being the seventh day and... [laughter] or the second day in this case. And we're gonna have some special, special guests on stage. So come out, check us out. Then we're going to HR Tech in Vegas, October 10th through the 13th, where we will be spending two whole days in the Fuel50 booth, drinking, interviewing, and doing whatever the hell we want, 'cause I'm sure that's exactly what they want. Plus, I hear we're gonna have guests which are carbon copies of the Chad and Cheese. Joel Cheesman: Just a rumor, Chad, just a rumor. Don't get the masses too excited too quickly. It's just a rumor at this point. Chad Sowash: Last but not least, a few days later, just a few days later, we're going back to Europe, baby. That's right. Getting on a plane and we're heading to Paris for Unleash World, October 17th and 18th. It is a staple event in HR and recruiting industry. And if you're a startup, which I know a good amount of you probably are, you should check out the Digital Startup Competition. We can see you there at chadcheese.com. Go to events in the upper right hand corner. Register, register, register. Can't wait to see you. Joel Cheesman: Thank God, we have August to recover. Our poor livers need a break. Chad Sowash: Yes. Speaker 1: Starbucks. Joel Cheesman: Oh boy, oh boy. Okay, Twitter is getting into recruitment. Chad Sowash: What? Joel Cheesman: But let's talk about the name change real quick, Chad. Twitter is now X. The company said, "The Twitter name made sense when it was just a 140 character messages going back and forth, like birds tweeting. But now, you can post almost anything, hinting a super app was coming." Chad, your thoughts on Twitter becoming X. Chad Sowash: Elon Musk is literally taking everything away that made Twitter great. It was micro blogging, which teased people into content. That's really what it was good for, teasing people, having quick and snarky rebuttals and con... Really having good discussion back and forth. Now that's just not the case. TwitterX, though. So you're taking a well-known, global brand, and you're changing it for no fucking reason. Chad Sowash: You can make these stupid changes under the Twitter name, but he wants to turn it into something entirely new and different. He's making a ton of changes, that we'll talk about here in a minute as we get into the recruiting side of the house, but I don't know if this is real. It's like him wanting to have a dick measuring contest inside the octagon with Zuckerberg. I don't know if... What comes out of this guy's mouth is actually real. You go to X.com now, and it redirects to Twitter. I just don't know why you would spend those resources trying to push everything. None of this makes sense to me from a business standpoint. He's just losing money. Joel Cheesman: Yeah. It's funny, you said, "I didn't know if it's real." And so the first two that came to my mind, in my lifetime, as major brand screw ups. Number one, is new Coke. Chad Sowash: Yeah. Joel Cheesman: New Coke was a disaster. Chad Sowash: Yeah. Joel Cheesman: Coke was quick to turn around and say, "Okay, sorry. Let's go back to Coca-Cola Classic." By the way, Coke Classic does not taste the same as the original Coke, because we actually had cans of the old Coke, and they had classic, and I did taste-tests as a teenager. I'm like, "This is not the same. Something is going on." Anyway, so the conspiracy theorist in me said Coke had that planned all along, that they were gonna switch back to, maybe, a cheaper recipe and fool everybody, anyway. Joel Cheesman: And then Netflix, when they were moving from direct-to-mail movie CDs or DVDs, went into streaming, they created a new brand called Quickster. I don't know if you remember this or not. But Quickster was a week-long thing. The Wall Street freaked out. People were like, "What the hell's going on?" And then they quickly said, "Just kidding. We're still Netflix." And now Netflix is known more for streaming now than actual mail DVD. Joel Cheesman: So I kind of thought at first, "Oh, Elon's gonna go, "Okay, I'm sorry, I pissed off the community. We'll go back to Twitter."" But all signs point to this being a thing now. You have a multi-billion dollar brand that was built for free, at the footer of every major media company, every major company... Every site, almost, on the web, has a Twitter bird that links back to Twitter. To throw that away so, just in a cavalier fashion, just was weird. Clearly, Elon doesn't care. He's not listening to anybody. This is gonna go down as one of the biggest branding mistakes that you'll probably ever think of. Joel Cheesman: Just like Netflix wasn't pigeonholed into mailing DVDs, Twitter isn't pigeonholed into always being a 140 character messaging thing back and forth. You can evolve this thing into whatever. This super app that he's talking about where there's payments, and... I guess, you can call an automated Tesla at some point. Or maybe get a trip to space with your phone... I don't know where this thing's going. But to make it X, there's stories about trademark issues, companies like Microsoft with Xbox. There's like X trademarks. So this is gonna be a real... This is gonna be another headache for him, legally. Chad Sowash: Yeah. Joel Cheesman: They took the poor guy that had the X handle, and just said like, "Sorry dude, we're taking this over." So now X at Twitter is now X. It's the new company. Look, either he's gonna look like a total genius and crush this thing, or it's just gonna go down as one of the many stupid consumer electronic mistakes and sites that he's doing. Stick with cars, stick with spaceships, dude. It's just kind of sad to see this thing spiral down into trash. Chad Sowash: Yeah. Joel Cheesman: It's sad. Chad Sowash: But they're getting into recruiting, so it should... It's all good. Joel Cheesman: Maybe they can turn it around with hiring. So let's go to recruitment now, Chad. Twitter's reportedly developing, "Twitter hiring", a job listings feature for verified organizations to post up to five listings visible on their profile. The service is expected to be free for verified organizations, offered alongside the $1,000 a month verified organization subscription. So it's not exactly quite free, but I guess it is in a roundabout way. Twitter's interest in jobs, jobs related offerings, was evident as they acquired the job matching startup Laskie, which we discovered or talked about, Chad, a few weeks ago. And Elon Musk expressed interest in the idea when they acquired Laskie. Chad, your thoughts on Twitter or X or whatever hiring? Chad Sowash: Oh, okay. So we're gonna start out with a couple of quotes, so get get all this put into perspective. So this quote is from NDTV, "Advertiser spending dropped 89% to $7.6 million, over a two-month period earlier this year, according to estimates from market research firm Sensor Tower." Dropped 89%. Then the BBC reports, "Twitter has lost almost half of its advertising revenue, since it was bought by Elon Musk last October, in a statement by Musk." Chad Sowash: Job postings won't heal Twitter's self-inflicted revenue wounds. It's just not going to happen. This is a gushing wound, and he's got a generic band-aid that they're trying to apply to it. Job postings on Twitter are already happening, and if you're following a company that you're interested in, you're probably already seeing jobs in your feed. They're probably 99% irrelevant, but jobs have been in the feed since back in the TweetMyJobs days. Five featured jobs? I mean, can you imagine a company with hundreds or thousands of jobs trying to manage the top five jobs on your profile? If you can only sponsor five jobs, I mean, because there's no clarity about this yet. If you can only sponsor five jobs at a time, that dramatically curbs the revenue opportunity. That makes no sense. Discovery. Chad Sowash: How will Twitter drive relevant leads to real engagement? Well, the answer is, relevant job content. But Twitter has little to no understanding of user's work history, career pathing, or anything related to providing relevant job content to users. Now, I understand that Twitter purchased Laskie, a job matching platform. But without the data about me and my work history, none of that fucking matters, right? Again, you're just making shit up. You're going to have hallucinations all over the place. Employer branding. What brand wants to be involved in this shitshow other than maybe the MyPillow guy, right? So, very few. As demonstrated by advertising, marketing, and brand leaders pulling their cash out of Twitter. So this isn't bringing a knife to a gunfight. It's the equivalent of bringing a man with no arms and no legs to a gunfight. Joel Cheesman: Tell us how you really feel, Chad. So this is really interesting, and this goes back in my mind... Reid Hoffman and Elon worked at PayPal together. So Elon's known about probably the idea of LinkedIn before it actually even launched. So I gotta think at the back of my mind, Elon has always thought about, "Hey, LinkedIn is a good business. It has no competition." And we talked last week about LinkedIn getting some competition. Is it in the form of Twitter? I don't know, but I gotta think Elon is thinking about that. The history, you touched on it, of jobs integrating with social media, is long, and it's a long list of trail of the dead. You might remember SimplyHired did a deal with MySpace, back in the day, to power jobs for them. SimplyHired was the backfill for LinkedIn for many years. Joel Cheesman: You could see the LinkedIn jobs, and there was a second tab for SimplyHired that you could see that there. We both remember Google base, which was Google's first drop into that, quickly followed by Google+. There was no integration there. Facebook Jobs, we've talked about and they've done since we've launched this show. Jobs on Facebook are gone. So if Facebook can't make this shit work, do we really think that Twitter can make this work? It's doubtful. I feel like Elon's going to get bored. He's going to move on to other stuff, more exciting stuff. But I also appreciate that it's low-hanging fruit. Joel Cheesman: If you can get 10,000 companies to be a verified company and be able to put jobs up, that's $120 million a year, no big deal. But that's not chump change either. There's got to be searchability. It looks like you can put your ATS or an XML feed into Twitter, and maybe you select the five jobs that are at the top, or maybe it's searchable. Again, we don't quite know what it's going to look like. Joel Cheesman: Then I think the next step is, if you want to apply to jobs, or if you want to access jobs or more jobs, or if you want to put yourself out there to be hired, you will subscribe as a user to then put yourself out there. So now it's a position where all these job seekers that are on Twitter, just like on LinkedIn where it says, "I'm looking for work" or, "I'm open to work", now on Twitter, you'll be able to add that, "I'm open to work", as long as I'm paying the $8 a month to be on Twitter. So I think he's going to create this model of like, "Hey, if you pay subscription, you get all this stuff and we'll keep adding value." The golden goose, of course, is companies paying $1,000 a month to do this. I think a lot of companies will, just to see how it works. And if he adds value to that, then they'll keep doing it. But that said, this is a drop in the bucket of the kind of money he has to start making to make his $44 billion investment worthwhile. Joel Cheesman: It's an easy... Like, easy layup in terms of getting some revenue. I'm not shaking in my boots if I'm LinkedIn, I'm not losing sleep if I'm Indeed. This is kind of a nice discussion point, but it'll probably be dead in a year. Chad Sowash: He's literally submarining this business. And now he's coming up with all these different ideas that have no focus whatsoever, in trying to, again, put a cheap Band-Aid on a fucking gushing wound. He's had problems with brands. Any brand that has already started pulling revenue, advertising dollars, what do you think is going to happen if a company says, "Well, we're going to go ahead and sponsor for a $1,000 a month or what have you." Marketing finds out about it and says, "No. Fuck that. Optics wise, that's fucking stupid. Don't do that. We've pulled everything off of there in the first place for a reason." So yeah, I just think from an optics standpoint, from, you know, a business model standpoint, he is all over the place, all over the place. And in the X, the X marks the spot on the fucking problem. It is all fucked up. Joel Cheesman: Not since rim jobs has X jobs been so interesting. More spaghetti at the wall from Mr. Musk. Speaker 1: 60% of the time, it works every time. Joel Cheesman: All right, let's go from Twitter or X to Google. This is from our friends at AIM, "Google Sponsored Job Ads or, what the kids are calling GSJA... That doesn't really roll off the tongue very well... Could roll out fully in Q3 of 2023, providing sponsored posts above Google for jobs results. Job boards may benefit initially, but need to adopt with SEO, SEM and budget allocation. Regulatory concerns might lead Google to proceed cautiously, especially in Europe. Industry insiders believe GSJA will attract high-quality candidates and create new advertising opportunities for recruiters. However, there are challenges in understanding user intent for general job searches. Overall, however, AIM thinks Google's entry into job advertising could reshape how employers reach qualified candidates." Chad, what are your thoughts on GSJA. Chad Sowash: I think it's interesting and I'm going to hit with a different angle. I think Google's gonna do a damn good job, much better than we've seen in the past, especially around user experience. But remember, remember that Indeed is now playing ball with Google for jobs. So won't this just turn into another Indeed buying up more inventory like they did with Google PPC. Most niche job site players, they're not sophisticated enough to pull together great SEO, SEM. And now Google for job ads Indeed is, right. Agencies, this is where recruitment marketing firms should step in and fill the void, not just for their employer brands, but for niche job site players as well. It's low hanging fruit, especially in connecting user behavior with retargeting campaigns. That's what you will see from a lot of these job boards who want to really juice up their traffic. Chad Sowash: Here's a big European, "Aha", moment. European job sites have held their ground amazingly against Indeed. Indeed doesn't have great penetration into most of their countries because their local brands stand strong. But what other brands stand strong? Google and Indeed could easily sway loyal locals their way through outspending European brands on Google. Indeed can hop in. And that is where a lot of the job searches is actually starting. So it's a, "trust by association", and Google could be Indeed's trojan horse into Europe. Now, beyond Europe, Indeed is only one site, right? And I've had, actually, discussions, and people have talked about, "Well, they're just one site and Google for Job wants... They want diversity." Well, here's diversity for you, kids. Chad Sowash: There's another site called Glassdoor, and then another site called SimplyHired, which Indeed pretty much runs both of. Which means, also, the top three positions are theirs right out of the gate, if they have the spend, of course. So I see many layers happening here in a Trojan horse into Europe through Google, 'cause there's trust there. Also, you take a look beyond Europe, into just being able to take all of the inventory, which they did very well when they first started Search Engine marketing way back in the day. They had great SEO, great SEM and they just killed it. They could do that exact same strategy, starting with Google for jobs right out of the gate, and then start better penetration into Europe. Joel Cheesman: You just said penetration. Speaker 1: Just the tip. Joel Cheesman: So I think both of us at some point, in our prediction shows, talked about Google, monetizing Google for jobs with a pay-per-click solution. So, I think you're taking credit for this year when they rolled it out, first to big players, ZipRecruiter and some of the others. It's a natural progression. Anyone who knows anything about Google and what they've done, saw this coming. Now they're gonna roll it out to the masses. Joel Cheesman: Something about timing... Google's really good about timing. Like right when Indeed started fucking with their pay-per-whatever, Google started monetizing, rolling out pay-per-click. So it was like, "Oh, what great timing, both, for Google and what a fuck up timing it was for Indeed to mess with their pricing structure." So now you have Appcast acquiring Bayard, and now all the agencies are freaked out about where are we gonna put our spin in terms of distributing job postings. Joel Cheesman: Well, what great timing, now Google's about to roll out their pay-per-click solution. So all these agencies are gonna easily be able to tell their clients, "Oh, Google has a solution now. We're gonna go put a lot of spend that we were putting in Appcast or everywhere else, into Google." And what employer's gonna say, "No, don't spend money on Google. That sounds like a big waste of money. I've never heard of them." As opposed to like a second-tier programmatic solution, Google looks like, "Oh, our agency is super smart. They're super on it." "Yes, I will vote for leaving Appcast or whatever we're using, and leveraging Google." Like every employer's gonna be on board with that. So now the agencies have perfect timing to be able to roll all their people, all these big companies into Google's pay-per-click. Joel Cheesman: And all Google has to do is not fuck it up. Because if the spend works, if they get applies and they get the same kind of traffic that they were getting from Appcast or anywhere else, they're gonna be able to keep that spend. And it's eventually gonna trickle down to smaller companies. They'll be able to like, "Hey, post a job." "Hey, you want to boost this?" "You want to", like, "put some money toward that?" So smaller businesses will gravitate toward Google. I think this is a big win for Google. Who's not gonna pay for it? Everyone's gonna pay for it. Companies are gonna gonna get on board, agencies are gonna spend a bunch of money in it. And we hate SMBs, but I think SMBs are gonna slowly gravitate away from ZipRecruiter, Craigslist, whatever, and start posting their jobs directly onto Google. And they bring back hire for higher Google and they become... No, I'm kidding, they don't become an ATS again for all... Joel Cheesman: But I think, it's a natural progression. It's gonna happen. What I've been waiting for a long time is, Google+ comes back. You have your resume, your profile on Google, and you can easily apply to these jobs. That's still, I think, gonna happen. But for now, we'll just have to accept the old-school, pay-per-click, set a budget and get traffic, that we've all known and loved Google for almost two decades now, doing. And now employers and agencies can embrace it. Chad Sowash: Finally. Joel Cheesman: Finally. Quick break and we'll talk about DEI going down. All right, Chad, the Wall Street Journal, one of your favorite publications, is reporting, "Demand for Chief Diversity Officers is on the decline after a surge in interest a few years ago. And these executives are facing higher turnover rates than their counterparts in human resources, this is according to Live Data Technologies. In addition, some diversity chiefs say that the Supreme Court's recent ruling against affirmative action in higher education, is bringing additional scrutiny to their efforts. Companies including Netflix, Disney and Discovery have recently said that high-profile diversity, equity, and inclusion executives will be leaving their jobs. And thousands of diversity focused workers have been laid off since last year. And some companies are scaling back racial justice commitments." Chad, I'm guessing you have an opinion on this and wanna share it. Chad Sowash: Possibly. So let's break this down really quick, because this isn't just corporate America showing that they really never cared about diversity in the first place. That's only the start. Here in the US, recently, we've seen affirmative action killed in universities. And I predict that we will also see it challenged in the workplace. We're living in a time when states like Florida, are citing slavery as a benefit to some slaves, right? Chad Sowash: In states like Arizona, Iowa, Kansas, Missouri, Montana, Oklahoma, Texas, and of course Florida, they have all launched anti-DEI initiatives. This isn't just a sign of corporate America showing that they've always believed that the Chief Diversity Officer position was just a charade. They were all playing for branding optics. No, it goes much, much deeper and demonstrates just how fucked up and devolved the American society is right now. I mean, we are so divided for the wrong reasons. And let's be clear, a long time ago, we started talking and using the word, "Tolerance", instead of, "Respect". We shouldn't tolerate, we should respect different races, genders, religions, choice of who people love and individual's healthcare choices. We should focus on respect. But corporate America, unfortunately in this case, is only one of the symptoms of the disease. And that is the hard part. Joel Cheesman: So George Floyd was the spark that got this ball rolling. And you could look at Kaepernick, you could look at the Me Too as... There was a wave in America for a short period, that sparked this idea of diversity, equity, and inclusion. Everyone, certainly, we talked to on the show, everyone in our circles of employment, and just human being interactions, was that this was a good thing. This was a healing moment, if you will, in America. Unfortunately, it became politicized. It became a way for Fox News to get more watchers and listeners, and it became a way for CNN to do the same thing and MSNBC and whatever. And it sadly became this right-wing, left-wing argument about what is the point of this movement, and particularly, what is the point of having someone at your company that's getting paid to do this. Joel Cheesman: There was an incident at Stanford recently, where their DEI head had an event, and they went into, either, another professor or a business guy. And so the media just grabbed onto this. And what followed from that was, shareholders, business owners. You saw companies and CEOs coming out saying that, "This isn't political. Like we're not here to state political beliefs. We're here to make money, we're here to make products, we're here to build services." So the volume around this is something that could be a healing moment, something that brings us together became, "Them vs. Us." Companies started saying, "We're out of the, "Them vs. Us" business. We're here to make products." Joel Cheesman: They saw what happened to Disney. They saw what happened to other companies. The, "Go woke, go broke", trend became something that was popular. And my fear is that this is gonna exterminate, basically, the entire title of DEI leader, manager, et cetera. And we're gonna see this trend slowly fade away, sadly. And yeah, like you said, America is going backward. And I feel for the folks that were inspired by this movement, and saddened that it turned into a political fight that companies didn't want any part of. And letting go of their DEI, folks is a casualty of that. And there's just no other way to paint this, besides, unfortunate and sad, for America. Chad Sowash: Corporate America, in this case, if they wanted to achieve pay equity, they would've done it already. And for anybody that says it's hard, fuck you. That's bullshit. We know better. There's technology out there, we know better, okay? They don't want to do it. And this is a great watershed moment in demonstrating, and it should to you, that they didn't give a fuck in the first place, right? Most of these CDOs didn't have staff, they didn't have budget. All they had was a position. And you know what that position was there to be? Was to be a Chief Diversity Officer, that everybody could point to and say, "Oh, look, we're doing our job." And they weren't. They never were. Joel Cheesman: Now onto something a little lighter, Chad. Chad Sowash: Please. Good God. Good God. [laughter] Joel Cheesman: Yeah, this is a little heavy for you, your first day back in America. So remember Jeff Taylor? Monster's Jeff Taylor's Eons? . Chad Sowash: I can't forget him, dude. I cannot forget him. Joel Cheesman: Yeah, it's the social network/platform for the 50 and over crowd that launched back in 2006. Well, in case you forgot about it, Chad, or our listeners forgot about it, or you don't even know what the hell we're talking about, have a quick listen to a commercial from Eons, back in 2006. [video playback] Jeff Taylor: Hi, I am Jeff Taylor, and I'm proud to introduce Eons.com. Eons is all about you, but here's the twist: You need to be past your 50th birthday. From this moment with Eons.com, you'll see more, you'll learn more, and you'll be more. Eons.com is the place to go on the web for everything 50plus. I like to say, "Boom, boom, boom. Let's get started." I'm here at Eons.com. It's free, and there's tons to do. First off, it's fun, and it's huge. Find tons of games, brain builders, and movie reviews just for people your age and body. Take the longevity calculator, see how to add years to your life. Don't miss our exclusive products, created especially for you, from LifeDreams, where you can build your top 10 list of life goals, to cRANKy, the world's first age-relevant search engine. Chad Sowash: CRANKy. [laughter] Jeff Taylor: Come see us at Eons.com. You're one click away from living the biggest life possible, and it's free. Be proud. Be inspired. Get it done. You know what's coming. Boom, boom, boom. Joel Cheesman: Boom, boom, boom, baby. Was Jeff even 50 when he launched Eons? [laughter] Chad Sowash: I don't think he was. No, I don't think he was. I think Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman, Jane Seymour, was, who was the spokeswoman for this. But... Joel Cheesman: Yeah, cRANKy... Chad Sowash: Yeah. Joel Cheesman: CRANKy was... It was like rank in large letters, and then the C and the Y were small at the end. So Chad, fast forward to today, and now a company called Peppermint, a New York City based "online clubhouse," [laughter] as I put in quotes... I guess that's what we're calling social networks now... For adults 55 and over. That's right, we've gone from 50, over now 55. Has secured $8 million in seed funding, led by Primetime Partners. The platform offers interactive workshops and clubs to promote engagement and learning. It plans to expand operations and collaborate with senior centers to foster connections. Chad, what's old is new again. What are your thoughts on Eons 2.0, aka Peppermint? Chad Sowash: $8 million is a lot of money for a seed round, and it's a shit ton of money to throw straight into the fucking toilet. [laughter] Face it, nobody wants to feel old. And creating a social media platform for people 55plus, means the equivalent to an old folks home social media platform. I mean, it's really what it is. So now, if they're trying to get laid by someone your own age, then a dating site or dating app gives motivation to sign up. That makes sense. But anybody can create a group on Facebook and only give access to people who say they're 55plus. So selling an idea, purely, on total addressable market without really understanding human behavior, is a recipe for disaster. That's all there is to it. Joel Cheesman: Yeah. Look, I get it. We're an aging population. 77 million baby boomers, 10,000 retiring every day. I get the allure of creating something just for the old folks. Chad Sowash: The concept, yeah. Joel Cheesman: The problem that was with Eons is still a problem today. Old people do not want to admit that they are old. Chad Sowash: No. Joel Cheesman: They wanna be on TikTok, if they can figure it out. They at least wanna be on Facebook and stuff that their kid's on. And maybe grandkids are doing Instagram. They wanna... They don't wanna be somewhere that the old people go to die. That's just... Like, my dad is 83. He's almost 84. He lives in a retirement community, and all he can talk about is how old everyone is at the retirement community. I'm like, "Dad, you're one of the fucking old people, dude. [laughter] I'm sorry, but Dad, you're 83." Mick Jagger is 80. He turned 80 this week. You think he's joining Peppermint? No. Chad Sowash: No. Joel Cheesman: He's Mick Jagger. Chad Sowash: No. Joel Cheesman: All these old people wanna be Mick Jagger. They still want it to be Woodstock, they still want it to be the '60s... Chad Sowash: Exactly. Joel Cheesman: And that's just the way that it is. And this thing, to get $8 million, [chuckle] is totally making a pile in the street and burning it, because this thing is not gonna take off. There's already dating sites like you mentioned. Yes, STDs are running rampant in these places because you got divorcees and widows all fucking each other. And I'm down with that. That's fine. But you don't need a site for it. And if you do, they already have OurTime or whatever. There's stuff out there. So these guys are behind the curve on that. And by the way, let's not even get into the issue of old people not really figuring out new tech anyway. My dad's phone hasn't been able to download an app for three years because he fucked something up. [laughter] That's sort of the demographic. It's like, let's launch something cool to people that don't get it anyway. And that's ageist, because I can be because I'm technically almost in the age group for this site. And I can tell you, I would never join this site. Chad Sowash: No. Joel Cheesman: Because I'm a podcaster, damn it, and podcasting is cool forever. Good luck, Peppermint. Joel Cheesman: All right, Chad. The #FullTimeDaughter and #FullTimeSon trends are gaining popularity on Chinese social media, reflecting the rise of youth unemployment. Many adult children, unable to find jobs, are hired [chuckle] by their parents to do housework and do other companionship activities. Despite some criticism, some see it as a short term option until better opportunities arise. The increase in unemployment may exacerbate the phenomenon, impacting household incomes, and overall social consumption in China. Chad, full time daughter, full time son. Are you ready to take your kids back in, and make them a full time kid once again? Chad Sowash: No. Let's get this straight. 4,000 subscribers in the full time daughter group or full time whatever it was group, in a country of 1.4 billion. So that pretty much makes this the upper crust are paying their kids while everyone else is still working, or trying to work, or a bunch of part-time jobs to actually make ends meet. So at the end of the day, it's unsustainable, because every country needs highly skilled workers. And unless mom and dad has a cybersecurity firm, it's a cute story, but more Kardashian than reality. I don't see this being sustainable. I think it's clickbait-ey and interesting for a very small few. Speaker 1: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Joel Cheesman: So in the early '90s, there was a show with Chris Elliott, who was on Schitt's Creek, one of your favorite shows. Chad Sowash: Yes. Joel Cheesman: And I forget the name of the show... But the gist of the show was, he was a 40 year-old man, still living with his parents. And the show was funny because it was so outrageous. Like it would never happen. 40 year-old, living with parents, and he acted like a kid; video games, ordering pizza. Like, he did immature stuff. Here we are, 20-30 years later, and this is becoming a norm. I read all about this stuff about kids staying at home longer. When I was in my early teenager, teen... I wanted nothing to do with my parents. I wanted to get as far away from my parents as possible. If I had to live in a box at the Walmart, [laughter] that was better than dealing with my parents at dinner. No offense to my parents. Joel Cheesman: China has some real problems. 20% youth unemployment. There's some real social upheaval there, and it's weird. Maybe it's cultural, I don't know. But for Chinese adult's parents to pay their kids to just be kids... And you should google this story if you're listening. [laughter] Like, pictures of 25 year-old women that look like 13 year-old girls. It's like they wanna go back in time, the parents, and have kids that were young and do the things that when they were young, they don't wanna admit that they're old now. It's all just very bizarre. I don't really get it. They're paying them apparently 1150... 1115 US dollars per month, which is apparently the average salary in China. Joel Cheesman: There was a quote from the story that said, "My job is to spend time with my parents, for example, taking them to grocery stores and do some household chores. Also, if my parents wanna go out, I would make plans in advance for them, taking them to the various locations." What kind of surreal, upside down world have we come into, that our assistants now are our kids that are taking us out to events? Anyway, this is crazy. Maybe we'll all get lucky, and Elon will move back into his mom and bring Twitter back for old time's sake, man. That's what we can hopefully hope for. Elon, move back into mom's house. Chad Sowash: Boom, boom, boom. Joel Cheesman: Boom, boom, boom. We out. Chad Sowash: We out. Joel Cheesman: Welcome back, Chad. Music: Welcome back, welcome back, welcome back. Outro: Wow, look at you. You made it through an entire episode of The Chad and Cheese Podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast-forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey, or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt. But save some soap, because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

Not sure if you’ve heard or not, but recruiting and retaining healthcare professionals is a hot topic these days. No one has really figured out the secret sauce or found the magic bullet. That’s why Chad & Cheese sat down with Angad Madra, director HR technology and analytics at Ardent Healthcare, at iCIMS Inspire in San Diego. On this episode, get ready to snack on a tasty dose of healthcare recruitment, best retention practices and impact of the gig economy. You’re blood pressure is sure to normalize after this one if you’ve been stressed about hiring in this sector. TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level. Chad Sowash: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. [music] Joel Cheeseman: Oh, yeah. What's up, boys and girls. We are live from iCIMS INSPIRE, beautiful San Diego, California. I am Joel Cheeseman, your co-host, joined as always, Chad Sowash. And we are happy to welcome Angad Madra to the podcast today. Chad Sowash: That is a strong name. Joel Cheeseman: Very strong. Chad Sowash: I don't know we've ever had a strong name as a strong name. Joel Cheeseman: I need "Gad" connected to my name, Joel Gad Cheeseman, Joel Gad... Chad Sowash: Angad Madra. Joel Cheeseman: Angad, welcome to the podcast. Angad Madra: Thank you. Joel Cheeseman: You're with Ardent Healthcare. Your title would be? Angad Madra: Director of HR Technology and Analytics. Joel Cheeseman: Love it. Out of Nashville... Chad Sowash: Hot Chicken, Tennessee. Joel Cheeseman: Tennessee. Angad Madra: Hattie B's. It's the only one. Chad Sowash: Hattie B's, baby. Joel Cheeseman: So we are at the end here, of day one. What were some of your major takeaways, things that you learned, things that blew your mind up? Talk about that. Angad Madra: I think some people might have said this already, Raya Mars, just looking at the data, one of the things that was intriguing was looking at her data of the population that's coming into the workforce from a age standpoint. And then hearing that same analogy from Johnny Taylor, but talking about, "Hey, we should focus on not just the college campuses and not just the Gen Zs that are coming in, but also focus on 40 above, 50... People above the age of 50. And I think as an industry, we've just neglected that population, so it's caused a lot of chaos in TA to freak out about candidate pool. And here's a amazing amount of people who have a lot of experience, are ready to work, and we're not paying attention to that. So I thought that was really interesting. Chad Sowash: I think we... There's a selective neglection that happens. [laughter] Angad Madra: Totally, totally. Joel Cheeseman: Selective neglection... Angad Madra: I like that phrase. Chad Sowash: We're going to neglect you, and then you... Angad Madra: Purposefully. Chad Sowash: Yes. And then you... Angad Madra: Right. Chad Sowash: So it's weird when we find value in certain segments of the workforce. Talk about what your passion is, especially on the technology side of the house. Why does tech, especially in this space, 'cause not everybody thinks it's sexy. I do. I'm a geek. Joel Cheeseman: Ditto. Chad Sowash: Obviously, you are too. What's your passion around it? Angad Madra: It's 'cause I'm Indian, man. [laughter] It's in my blood. I was in HR and people are like, "Are you in IT?" And I'm like, "Man, maybe I do need to switch to HR IT at least and blend those two worlds." I'm kidding, I'm kidding. [laughter] Chad Sowash: Oh, that's it. We're gonna stop the podcast now. That's too good. Joel Cheeseman: We out. [laughter] Angad Madra: No, I mean, when I was in HR, that was a comment that I got a lot, that people would find out I'm an Indian, they're like, "Oh, you're in IT?" "No, I'm not." But even within HR, I just really enjoyed... Chad Sowash: That's profiling, and profiling ain't cool. Angad Madra: That's why I shaved my head, I look like Middle Eastern now, so... [laughter] I'm kidding. Chad Sowash: It's a sexy head, I'll tell you that right now. Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. Angad Madra: You resonate. There's problems, you know... Chad Sowash: Thank you. Can feel it, yeah. Angad Madra: Sunburn. Chad Sowash: Yeah. Joel Cheeseman: Feel like I'm in between a couple of Ban roll-on deodorants. [laughter] Chad Sowash: Go ahead. Angad Madra: No, I think being in HR, it is a people business. Recruiting was awesome, gained a lot of experience, but for me personally, doing the same thing, having the same conversation, pulling up the same interview guides, I just needed something else. So I would play around in the system and stretch the system and really fell in love with technology that supports recruiters to do their job better. So my passion is taking technology and making it work for people who are, like, my favorite phrase is, "Oh, I didn't know it could do that." So that's my passion, is helping people find what the system can do, which they already have, they've already paid for, but it's underutilized. Joel Cheeseman: You have previous experience at Dollar General, which is, I assume, a 180 from the work you do now. Angad Madra: Yeah. Joel Cheeseman: But compare and contrast recruiting at Dollar General versus what you do now at Ardent Health. [laughter] Chad Sowash: Wow. Angad Madra: So yeah, I was a recruiter for Dollar General, finding store managers in the middle of nowhere. So it brings a very unique challenge, and the labor market is very different, the pay is very different, so you have to be creative. And Dollar General is a machine. They have 19,000 stores. And our metrics were ridiculous. Like I'd have 1000-1200 stores that I was recruiting for, and my goal was to be 99% staffed, which meant I could only have 10 stores open without a store manager. So the strategy there was not to sit around, wait for a store to be open, but was to build really deep relationships with your district managers and say, "Hey, if your store manager sneeze in the left instead of right, I need to know," so we could have a backup plan and we can figure out this before the store manager leaves. Chad Sowash: Wow. Angad Madra: So it was a very different situation to now being at Ardent Health, our number one job we're looking for is, you can guess it, registered nurses. Joel Cheeseman: Yep. Chad Sowash: Yeah. S?: Interesting. Angad Madra: And even though I am not recruiting, I'm helping the teams recruit using the technology that we have. So, one of the... We're paying crazy amounts of money. If you add up our sign-on bonus and retention bonus, it adds up to the store manager's salary. So we're spending a lot of money to bring these people in, and we saw at iCIMS INSPIRE, the stats from Raya and Johnny Taylor of how many jobs we'll have open by 2030, the gap that there's gonna be. So I think our challenge is, again, how do we build those relationships with these people and bring them in and not just do what other people are doing. Your standard campus recruiting and your standard, "Alright, here's Indeed, I'm gonna dump all this money... " And do the things that... You're competing with everyone else. How are you gonna make yourself unique in the market and bring people in? Chad Sowash: So we talked to an energy company earlier today who actually bought a university because they knew they had to pipeline. I mean, you wanna talk about talent pipelines... Joel Cheeseman: They bought the apple tree basically. Angad Madra: Wow. Chad Sowash: Well, they bought the entire farm, planted the seeds, watered them. Right? So when you take a look at nursing, you take a look at the entire healthcare system, we need to do vocational better, we need to get deeper. We need to get into high schools, we need to get into the... Is there any way that you think the healthcare system is actually gonna move that far down, deep into... Because we need to. Angad Madra: It already is. Our CEO is looking at... And if you look at some of the things, Ardent's already piloting virtual nursing. So we already have hospitals where certain elements of the nursing job, where you come in and you debrief the patient on what's going on, are already happening over a screen, where a nurse... We have a nurse who's disabled, who cannot be physically in the hospital, so we've created a virtual nursing position for that person. Joel Cheeseman: Did he say virtual? Angad Madra: Yes. [laughter] Chad Sowash: Is it [0:07:31.0] ____? Joel Cheeseman: No. S?: Are there VR glasses involved? Joel Cheeseman: Is there a goggle set? [laughter] Is there a Oculus headset in here somewhere? Angad Madra: And I remember this, I went to the hospital not too long ago for something and I had a person on an iPad getting all the information from me about my insurance, my driver's license. I could take a photo with that iPad, send it to her, and she did all of that... Joel Cheeseman: Really? Angad Madra: While I was in bed and there was little monitors sitting next to me. So I know the industry's changing rapidly with how we use technology. Another thing that our organization is piloting is, if you think about your time at a hospital, a nurse is coming very frequently to check your vitals. So they are creating this technology that's a size of a button, little coin that sits on your chest, and it can monitor your vitals much more quickly and... Joel Cheeseman: Efficiently. Angad Madra: Efficiently than a nurse every couple hours. So that not only is helping the patient, and if something goes wrong, we don't have to wait two, three hours to find out. You could really know about the vitals, whatever happening in the moment that it is, and the patient can get the care. So AI, technology is really changing even how patients receive care and how we're helping nurses have flexibility in their jobs and do some of the things. Chad Sowash: Just some of the tasks. And again, we talk about how automation, it's not gonna replace jobs, it's gonna replace tasks. So, that coin might not be able to take blood, right? Angad Madra: Correct. Chad Sowash: Like a phlebotomist or what have you. But... Angad Madra: Emily Holmes might say take blood, but we don't have to go there. [laughter] Joel Cheeseman: We can go wherever you want. Your name is Angad. [laughter] Chad Sowash: We went full Theranos on that one, kids. But I mean, yeah, that's amazing. And being able to... The prospect of having an RN who, whether they have a disability or not, can be off location. Angad Madra: Exactly. Chad Sowash: Right? And they can service many. Angad Madra: Right. Chad Sowash: I've actually been in London, to a hotel where you check in on an iPad, and it's somebody in another location. And more than likely, they're doing a registration desk for many different hotels. Angad Madra: Absolutely. Chad Sowash: Right? And so it is, I think, a phenomenon. The big question is, will we adopt it or do we even have a choice? Angad Madra: I don't think we have a choice. I mean, already, so many things are... If people hate ChatGPT, oh, well, you hate it, man. It's out there. [laughter] You know, do you have a choice? You can hate it or maybe try it. Chad Sowash: You cannot use it or you can use it... Angad Madra: And see how it makes your job easier. Chad Sowash: Yes, yes, yes, yes. And learn the hacks, making your job easier. Angad Madra: Yeah. I don't think you could put the genie back in the bottle. I think that's kind of where we've come to. It's now trying to figure out how to ethically move forward with it, and more... I personally think there's gonna be more and more jobs, just like there used to not be jobs where people in every department were looking at data and analyzing it. It was the statisticians that had these crazy equipment and they were trained on it. Now, everybody... I can pull up Power BI, dump a couple spreadsheets and make myself look like a statistician or a data analyst, right? I think it's gonna be the same thing with AI, because it is so freely available, we're gonna have more and more jobs where we are training people how to better leverage it, how to put safeguards around it, how to ethically use it for our company. So, we're using it well. And there's gonna be this specific skillset that people have, or maybe you have a person who knows how to put prompts into an AI system and use it in a way that's more effective. Yeah. But it's gonna happen, and people don't like it, oh, well... Joel Cheeseman: I still have a rotary phone because I believe the voices that come through a mobile device are from the Devil, [laughter] but that's another podcast, Chad. So we know that from the pandemic, this incredible stress on nurses, a lot of nurses left the profession because of that stress. What's happening now in terms of getting them back to the profession? I assume a lot of them haven't left permanently. Maybe it's a timeout. What are you guys doing in terms of marketing or recruiting to get them back into the job? Angad Madra: Yeah, absolutely. That's a great question. I think a lot of people did leave partly because of the burnout that COVID caused, a lot of uncertainty. Joel Cheeseman: God, yeah, dude. Chad Sowash: You see nurses and just medical professionals on TikTok or on YouTube or whatever, literally going into depression right in front of your eyes. Angad Madra: I would too. It was a tough, tough year, couple years for them. Joel Cheeseman: And are you going to OnlyFans, recruiting the nurses that have gone to OnlyFans to come back to the profession? Chad Sowash: I don't think that you can bring them back. [laughter] Angad Madra: No, no, you can't do that. But the ones that did go to Dollar General, [laughter] [0:12:21.1] ____ didn't become store managers, they're probably wanting to come back because they still have that nursing license and they have the degree, they have the skillset. Some of them actually cared about that job and want to come back without the added stress of COVID and all of LinkedIn rubbing it in their face that life is so great with my pet working at home, while they're taking care of all these people, not knowing what's gonna happen to them. Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So when it comes to recruiter hacks, that's gotta be like one of the favorite things, gotta get you all excited inside when it comes to using tech. Right? What's your favorite... Like the thing that you've done throughout your career that you've created like a recruiter hack within a system? Angad Madra: Oh man, I love that question. When I was at Asurion, it's a tech company in Nashville. We were doing three to 500 interviews a day. Joel Cheeseman: Holy shit. Angad Madra: We had a team that just did interviews. It was a high volume role. One of the things that we would do is pull up a Word document, start typing in the interview notes, save it, go to the email, attach the document, send it to an email address. The other team that was... That was the recruiter's role, the interviews role. Then we have another team that their only job was to go into that inbox, get that attachment, scroll all the way to the bottom, look at if it was an extend offer or don't extend offer, and then go and extend the offer. Chad Sowash: Did you have people faxing as well? Angad Madra: Oh my goodness. And then... [laughter] But just hearing the process, it's painful, right? Your eyes twitching, yeah. But one thing I looked at was, there absolutely has to be a way we can automate this. So what I did was created a Microsoft form, put the entire multiple interview guides in there with the radio buttons, with branching questions. And a quick hack about Microsoft Forms is if you go to Microsoft Forms and create a survey, if you start there, the responses will go to a static Excel file. If you go to SharePoint, to an online Excel file and insert a Microsoft Form, every time the response comes, it goes to a SharePoint Excel file which is live, and you don't have to download the responses. Angad Madra: So, that's what we did. There was an online response file, you can filter it by extend offer and you could zip through all the extend offers, "Who do I need to extend an offer?" and now, I have a really quick way to say, how many interviews did we do today? How many were extend offers? How many didn't extend offer? And we turned it into a whole dashboard just for our three to 500 interviews a day. So, not only were we able to quickly do them, extend the offers, but also get metrics on them. So that was like... Chad Sowash: How much time was saved? Angad Madra: Not time, I'll tell you we saved $500,000 a year... Joel Cheeseman: That'll buy a lot of beer. Angad Madra: Off of that hack. Joel Cheeseman: Amen, brother. Curious to your opinion on the gig economy. We talk about companies like Nomad Health, Caduceus, etcetera. They're sort of Fiverr for the healthcare system where you can contract, bring them in, pay them hourly. Are you bullish on this trend? Is it something that you're gonna get behind as a company or not? Angad Madra: I think we will if it gets to that, right? You gotta be creative. You gotta look at all your options. If something's not working, you gotta pivot. So our CEO has been super forward-thinking in even just getting that button for vitals or getting nurses on a screen, so I don't think it's out of the question, but again, it'll depend on how that could benefit the organization in our future. But we talked about nursing shortages. We already have nurses working in our hospitals that we recruited from outside of the US, they got trained, they got brought into the US as a work Visa situation and they're in our hospitals working. So we're already recruiting people from outside of the US, 'cause we don't have nurses in the US to fill all the jobs that we have. Joel Cheeseman: And how are you doing that? Feet on the streets? Angad Madra: No, it's through a company who takes care of that whole process. Joel Cheeseman: Okay. Angad Madra: Yep, and so they have figured out what regulations, what education, what skill set is needed to qualify for the requirements in the US. Joel Cheeseman: Do you wanna name names? You wanna keep it a secret from our listeners? Angad Madra: I don't have names for you guys. [laughter] We don't want other healthcare companies to know. [laughter] Joel Cheeseman: It's a secret, I'm not gonna give you that. Alright, everybody, that is Angad Madra. He is at Ardent Healthcare. Angad, for our listeners that want to connect with you or know more about your company, where would you send them? Angad Madra: LinkedIn. I guess everybody says that, but yeah, that's the only platform I'm on, so you could search me on LinkedIn and I'd love to connect. Chad Sowash: Just look for that sexy bald head gig. Angad Madra: Sexy bald head. [chuckle] Joel Cheeseman: Can you dig it? I know that you can. Alright, Chad, that is another one in the can from beautiful San Diego, California, at the iCIMS INSPIRE conference. We out. Chad Sowash: We out. Joel Cheeseman: Wow, look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese Podcast, or maybe you cheated and fast-forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back, valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey, or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now, go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

Live from UNLEASH America in the Workhuman booth, Julia Levy, industry veteran, superfan of the podcast and former head of global talent acquisition at CommScope, join the boys for conference takeaways, the current state of recruiting and how organizations can best adapt to change in a world that, let’s face it, has gone a bit nutso. Indeed mirage products, LinkedIn just doesn't care, and Talent Acquisition trying to remove business and budget blockers. TRANSCRIPTION SPONSORED BY: Disability Solutions partners with our clients to build best-in-class inclusion programs and reach qualified, talented individuals with disabilities of every skill, education, and experience level. [music] Chad: Live from the Workhuman booth at UNLEASH America in Vegas this year, Joel and I were able to sit down with some great practitioners and industry voices. Sit back and enjoy this exclusive episode, powered by our friends over at Workhuman. Answer the human need to be recognized, developed, and celebrated at workhuman.com. S?: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You are listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. [music] Joel: We are back live from UNLEASH America in beautiful Las Vegas, Nevada, at the Workhuman booth. Chad: Workhuman. Joel: And joining us today is Julia Levy. [applause] Joel: Longtime fan of the show... Chad: There it is. Joel: Industry icon and great taste in eyewear, although people listening won't see that. Chad: Yeah. Daughter of Eugene Levy. Nobody knew that. [laughter] Chad: Nobody knew that. Joel: And heir to the Levi's jean... [laughter] Joel: Throne as well. Julia Levy: I don't have the eyebrows though. [laughter] Chad: Yes, the Levy eyebrows. That's a good one. Yeah. How is Dan doing, by the way? That's my question. Julia Levy: I love him. Chad: Yeah, he's pretty amazing. He's pretty amazing. Joel: We're joking, right? She's not really into that. Chad: More of Schitt's Creek. Yes. More of Schitt's Creek. Julia Levy: No relation. Joel: Yeah. Lot of Levy's out there, by the way. Chad: Yes. Joel: So what's catching your eye here at the show? What's got you calling bullshit? What's got you impressed? Who... Julia Levy: Well, I had an interesting conversation around a long historical player that... Joel: Is she gonna name names or not? Chad: I hope so. Joel: Jeez. Chad: Go ahead. Julia Levy: About Indeed. Chad: Oh. Joel: Oh. There it is. Chad: Finally. Joel: There it is. [laughter] Julia Levy: And just the person I was talking to was saying how innovative and forward-thinking they are. [laughter] Julia Levy: And I'm not... I mean... Chad: I think, some people can buy into some bullshit. I'm gonna tell you right now. Joel: And she checked her watch to see if it was 2008, then she just didn't... [laughter] Joel: Didn't pay attention. Julia Levy: Listen, there was a time where they were in a past life my number one source of talent. Chad: Yeah. Julia Levy: I don't know if I'd use the word "innovative," like some of the other dinosaurs that... [laughter] Julia Levy: Are around. Chad: Monster, CareerBuilder. Here's a question though, because we also heard from another HR practitioner, very tongue in cheek, about an analyst writing up Indeed and saying that, "Oh my God, do you believe what was actually being said?" And my response was very simple, we forget history very, very quickly, and when you take a look at a brand like Indeed, you've gotta remember who they are. And unfortunately, a lot of analysts in our space paint this bright rainbow fuzzy picture of the future, but yet they don't call upon the past. And so to me, whoever you were talking to, whether they were an analyst or not an analyst, they're either, number one, vying for more cash from a big player, or they just don't know what history is. Julia Levy: I like where they're going in concept around the pay for application, but a lot of the challenge is in the execution of things like that. Chad: That has to be all on their system. Right? Joel: And why are you excited about that direction? Julia Levy: Pay-for-click on a lot of the programmatic campaigns and things like that, you're not getting to cost of application as easily at times, or just how do you tell that quality? Is it pay for interview? Maybe it's not app and you're moving it a little forward to interview. But I think getting at that quality of app, maybe, I haven't solved that one yet. Joel: So, would you agree that Google has more engineers than Indeed does? [laughter] Joel: Would you agree that Google has more PhDs than Indeed does? [laughter] Julia Levy: Yes. Google has many more than... Joel: Okay. Google, and arguably more wisdom, has remained pretty steadfast with a pay-per-click model. Are they doing it for innovation purposes or are they doing it... Julia Levy: It's a money grab. Joel: Or are they doing it because programmatic is kicking their ass and other competitors. To me, that's more about what they are doing than they're innovative. Chad: And also, they had to separate themselves from Google because if Google is CPC and Indeed is CPC, who's gonna win that fucking fight? No one, right? Joel: No Indeed rep wants to have the conversation of "Why should I use you when Google is 20% cheaper on the clicks?" Julia Levy: Yeah. Joel: "So let's create some uncertainty about our pricing model and our business because we're not pay-per-click anymore, we're this." Julia Levy: Well, and there's this backroom group of people that are deciding... Joel: Say more about this backroom of people. [laughter] Julia Levy: I forget what they called the team. I know... Chad: She didn't say backdoor, she said backroom... Joel: The shadowy... [laughter] Chad: She said backroom. Joel: The shadowy depths of Indeed. Julia Levy: Shadowy figure. [laughter] Julia Levy: Like who prices what job and what location? Joel: Ooh, the algo. Julia Levy: And then... Chad: Well, the search quality team is what they called them. Julia Levy: Yes. But isn't that the same... Joel: Is that the backroom? The search quality team? Julia Levy: Isn't that the same team that, five years ago, was telling you that you couldn't have a form on the front-end of your... Chad: You shouldn't be registering because it's bad for user experience, but yet today, kids, what is Indeed doing though? They're forcing you to register on their fucking site. Yes. Joel: Oh, man. Chad: So again, there are all these things. If we take a look at history, and then we take a look at what they're trying to do, and you take a look at the market as Joel has illustrated, especially with programmatic vendors and Google for jobs coming in to finally, to market. They're in alpha, gonna be in hopefully beta soon. It's a weird game for them right now. Joel: It's an ugly storm on the horizon, Julia. Julia Levy: But even, I'm excited to be here at UNLEASH to see a lot of the tech that's here because I just looked at some data, I'll use one of the other big players in our space, LinkedIn. Chad: Yeah. Julia Levy: And I just looked at our data for last year and we spent a lot of money with that provider, and certain aspects of it do well. Their most expensive aspect, which is the LinkedIn Recruiter seats, we spent a lot of money, have a lot of recruiters, and we got a very small amount of hires from that piece of the pie. Joel: Ohh. Chad: What about usage? Do you look at usage data as well? Julia Levy: We look at usage monthly... Chad: Are you getting good usage? Julia Levy: Some of our recruiters are super-empower users, and others are not as good. But if you try and take LinkedIn Recruiter away from a recruiter... Joel: Pitchforks and fire. Julia Levy: Yes. And I've tried using other tools in the past but the user experience of them, the adoption wasn't simple, it was very complex, so no one would leave LinkedIn. But that's the baby that everyone knows and loves and wants to hold on to from a recruiter in a seat trying to find talent. Joel: Is LinkedIn even here? Julia Levy: I don't believe so. Chad: I haven't seen them. I haven't seen them. Joel: At least Indeed's here. I give them credit for showing up. LinkedIn is like, [chuckle] "We don't need your silly expo." [laughter] Joel: "We're LinkedIn." [laughter] Chad: "We don't need to be at shows." Joel: "We're the heroin drip. Just try to say goodbye to us." What other vendors, trends, are you interested in, are you seeing? Julia Levy: A lot of conversation around data, from a competitive land, external labor market perspective, also the internal data and how you can see who your applicants are, who your passive candidates are, in your CRM or whatever tools you have, and being able to show the full environment of your internal talent, your applicants and candidates, prospects, and then what's in the labor market; and then how do you serve that up to hiring managers and business leaders to have that seat at the table, helping them workforce plan, look at location strategies, plan for the future. Chad: Why don't we have those tools to also take a look at our candidate database to ensure that we don't continue to buy the same candidates over and over and over? We've spent hundreds of millions of dollars buying the same candidates over and over and over. And yet, if we were in marketing, which is one of the reasons why marketing might look at us and scoff, because they'd get fired if they did this shit. We have leads who were silver medalists, bronze medalists, so on and so forth, but we never go back into our database to re-engage them or even try to engage them again. Keep them warm at least. Why don't you do that? Julia Levy: That goes back to talent acquisition teams while some CHROs and even CEOs and CFOs might say, "Talent is the most important secret sauce of our company." But then they don't invest into the talent acquisition team. If you have a talent acquisition team and you set it up similarly to a sales function. You should have marketing people on your talent acquisition team, because recruiters are not marketers. Some of them might be good at aspects of it, but you need lead generation and that competitive intelligence, you need an operations team, you need sourcers. And so most TA functions that a lot of the companies I've been at don't have the deep pockets to staff up a talent organization in a way that's gonna have that marketing and be able to really focus on lead generation. There are technologies, I think, that are getting closer to getting there, but I haven't seen anything yet. Although I haven't finished walking the floor to see if there's anything out there that could automate a lot of that with the help of some marketing pros and the right TA team structure to be able to be a business enabler. Joel: Are you seeing a corporate environment that's embracing marketers more? Are there more marketing teams talking to the recruiting teams? Or is there still a great divide from your point of view? Julia Levy: It's a mix. It's been a pretty great divide I've been at, some employers where marketing was a big blocker to talent attraction, and wanted to... Joel: Say more about that. Like budgetarily or strategically? Chad: "You're not on brand. You can't do this. You can't do that." Julia Levy: Like if you use one bullet point in the wrong place... Joel: It's trash. Julia Levy: It's no good. Yeah. So meticulous about the brand that it was impossible to... Chad: Do business. Julia Levy: Do any business. They wanted the recruitment brand to be as polished and professional and slick as the business brand. Joel: But are they helping that, or are they just saying, "That's wrong"? Julia Levy: That's wrong. Joel: So why not help them do it right, as opposed to just be this gatekeeper that says "Nope, that doesn't pass"? Julia Levy: Yeah. Joel: That seems like a real miss to me. Chad: I wanna put this at the feet of TA leadership, because if they were telling a better story, they're using business numbers, all of this could be a part of the conversation, right, being able to create this operational excellence that touches all these different areas. But we don't do that. Isn't that on us? Julia Levy: There's a piece of it that is on us. I think you do have to go to them and then say, "Let's pilot this idea," in this controlled group, there's trust that you have to build, and sometimes it comes faster and other times you have to go inch by inch in order to build that trust with them. So in past lives, that's what I've... When I've encountered those blockers, that's what I've tried to do is, it's gonna take me a lot longer to get from A to B. But when you think of the talent marketplace that we're in now, that's really disruptive to going to market to find good talent, when you've got a marketing team that's not helping you get and solve that problem. Chad: So, what about having the conversation with the marketing team about how putting these blockers in makes it much harder for them personally? 'Cause if you make it, the pain personal, then it's a different conversation, "I can't get you the best talent, the fastest, because of all of this stupid shit you're making me do." Julia Levy: Yeah. I think that in some organizations, they might not be reasonable. And I've encountered that in a past life. But then, I've gone to other places where marketing's like, "Do whatever you need to do and let us know how we can support you." Chad: So what happens when you stop filling their roles? Seriously, if they're gonna put those blockers in there and you stop filling their roles... Julia Levy: Easier said than done. [chuckle] Chad: Well, I get that. I get that to some extent, though. But when they are putting the obstacles, and you're like, "Hey, look, if these obstacles weren't here, it'd be much easier for me." I almost feel like we literally, as an industry, have no spine to be able to make those types of moves. What do you think about that? You're a practitioner, you've had to stiffen your spine, but you've also had to be incredibly diplomatic. Julia Levy: Yes. Chad: To get to a position that you're in, you have to be majorly good at diplomacy. Julia Levy: There is definitely some diplomacy that has to happen, and sometimes you're a little more successful than others with it. I would love, at times, to be able to call BS on people in the way that I really would want to. [laughter] Julia Levy: And, I wanna keep my job, so... Chad: Yeah. Joel: What role does the CEO have in this equation? Because you mentioned our most valued resource. And every CEO in the world goes on stages and says, "Our people... " Chad: Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Joel: "Are our most valued resource, but they don't walk the walk." Chad: No. Julia Levy: Yeah. Joel: "They talk the talk." What role does a CEO play in making this happen between marketing and TA? Julia Levy: It's not just marketing and TA, but I think you need an engaged CHRO. If there is a CMO, you need them to be able to talk. And then I think it's bringing the talent acquisition business case in front of the CEO. Now, sometimes TA can have a seat at that table, other times you have to go through the CHRO for that. But the CEO has a lot of accountability there. But I think that sometimes those business priorities change on a dime, and they have to manage that. Joel: So you need a degree in geopolitical diplomacy, it sounds like... [laughter] Joel: To do this job. Good luck, everybody. Chad: Well, as a negotiator as well, I think. I think a hostage negotiator, that's what we need more, hostage negotiators in our space because then we might actually get some shit done. Joel: There's an app for that, I'm sure. [laughter] Joel: There's an app for that, I'm sure. Julia, thanks for stopping by. It's always a pleasure. For our listeners that want to connect with you, where would you send them? Julia Levy: Hello@julia-levy.com or @RecruitingJulia. Joel: Love it, love it. Julia Levy: Thanks, guys. Chad: Excellent. Joel: Another one in the can, Chad. One more podcast to happy hour. We out. Chad: We out. S?: Wow, look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese Podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast-forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell. Enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey. Or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt. But save some soap, because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

If you loved last week’s episode breaking down Appcast’s acquisition of Bayard, then you’ll love this one too. Plenty of commentary and criticism in the aftermath of the deal to discuss whether or not Stepstone knows what it’s doing. Not to be outdone, Glassdoor’s R&D department woke-up long enough to build an “innovation” it calls Bowls. (Yeah, we’re confused too.) Then there’s so much AI news that we had to go rapid fire and highlight our favorite stories. And, of course, another week of sexbots, chips in your brain and living like Hugh Hefner at the Playboy mansion for the rest of your days. Good times, and a great listen. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community. Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. Joel: Oh yeah. It's National Junk Food Day and Take a Monkey to Lunch Day. So Bubbles and I are hitting up the Taco Bell after the show. You are listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. This is your co-host, Joel "Pray for Mojo" Cheeseman. Chad: Chad "You are not Your Job" Sowash. Joel: On this week's show. Appcast is conflicted, Glassdoor is blinded and Shopify gets side-kicked. Let's do this. Chad: Oh damn. I just woke up. Joel: Are you counting down the days in Portugal? Chad: Sadly, yes I am. Every time we go down to the bars and the restaurants and stuff they're like, how many days do you have left? I'm like, stop reminding me. So I just had a little nap by the pool. Little dip into the pool and nap into the pool 'cause I won't be able to do that in Indiana. At least not like this. Joel: No, my... So I got back from Canada a couple days ago so my Orlando, England, Canada world tour is coming to an end. I had no idea that a crown royal hangover could last a week. Who knew that that Canadian stuff will kick you in the nuts for sure. Well, it's been a good summer and as we head into fall, we'll have a lot of good content and stories to talk about I am sure. Chad: Amen. Amen. Joel: But let's get to... SFX: Shoutout. Joel: All right. My first one, here's a hint Chad. Oh yeah, that's right. Chad: The Mexican pizza? Back or what? Joel: That's right. Chad: What's going on? Joel: Taco Tuesday as a phrase is now free for everyone after Taco Bell won a case against itty bitty Taco peddler Taco John's this week. Taco John's CEO said, "Paying millions of dollars to lawyers to defend our mark just doesn't feel like the right thing to do." That's right, not since July the 4th has a date meant so much to Americans now that Taco Tuesday the phrase is free for everyone to use. But that's not all, Chad. Chad: Oh God. Joel: Because we've got some In-N-Out Burger News. That's right. Starting August 14th, if you work at an In-N-Out in Arizona, Colorado, Nevada, Texas or Utah and you wanna wear a mask, well you'd better have a doctor's note or go find yourself a new job. The company cited better customer service as the reason for the new rule. All good though Chad 'cause I just read on Twitter that animal style now serves as an effective vaccine to COVID so it's all good. It's all good. Shout out to Taco Bell and In-N-Out Burger. Chad: That and ivermectin. Just go ahead 'cause that's what... That's one of the secret sauce that's actually on the In-N-Out animal style burger. My first shoutout goes to Bradley Clark for sharing the following on LinkedIn. It's an audio from the NBA player Nikola Jokić after winning the NBA Championship for the Denver Nuggets this year. Listen up. Joel: Check it out. S?: NBA champion, Nikola, how does that feel? Nikola Jokic: It's good. It's good. The job is done, we can go home now. S?: I'm curious, what you are feeling right now, and if you're looking forward to a parade coming up in Denver. Nikola Jokic: No. I need to go home. [laughter] Okay. We won it. But I think it's not the most important thing in the world, still. There is a bunch of things that I like, that I like to do. I mean, probably that's normal thing. You know, nobody likes his job, or maybe they do. They're lying. [laughter] Chad: Dude. So Jokić is a stud. I mean, he's won the 2021 MVP of the NBA 2022 MVP of the League, 2023 finals MVP, 2023 NBA Championship, first time ever for the Denver Nuggets. Nikola Jokić just a regular guy punching the clock doing his job at the highest level and just wants to go home. I'm gonna cap this off with a little comment from Bradley Clark on LinkedIn where he says, "Jokić is one of the best basketball players in the world yet it's not his main priority. We need to normalize this, especially for dudes. You are not your job." So shout out to Jokić and Clark for emphasizing the you are not your job message. Joel: Very interesting. So Chad, listeners won't know this but viewers of our YouTube channel will notice that I'm wearing a Larry Legend basketball t-shirt honoring Larry Bird. So Larry Bird who many think love basketball as he did breathing, the "Who's Your Air?" That he did. In his first championship, commented in Boston, "The only place I'd rather be is French Lick," meaning back home in Indiana." So this is not a new sentiment by basketball superstars although it is a very poignant one by the Joker and I appreciate Bradley for pointing that one out. Chad: Yep. He wanted to get back to Serbia, baby. Joel: Europeans are taking over. All right. So my next shoutout goes to Amazon, your favorite company. Well. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: Well, when there aren't any more humans to hire, Chad, it's time for some self-serve Bezos style as Amazon is now offering US customers $10 to pick up a purchase rather than have it shipped to your home address. What suckers are we for bagging our own groceries and pumping our own gas for free. We could have been getting money from Kroger and the local BP. Chad: Oh my God. Joel: What's next? $10 for taking my own pet's temperature at the vet? I don't know where this is gonna go but anyway, shoutout to Amazon and their new $10 payoff for self-serving getting my own damn packages. Chad: This is ridiculous. This is ridiculous. Okay, whatever. Whatever, anyway. Shoutout to Jim Lowe and DeJuan Anderson for sharing their sexy Chad and Cheese t-shirt pics on the socials. But Joel... [music] Chad: T-Shirts from JobGet are only one of the items listeners can win. They can also win whiskey two bottles. That's right. One from you. One from me. Power buyer Friends at TextKernel. Craft Beer from Aspen Tech Labs. If you need some tech, you need some scraping, you need some data, you need some Pulse survey LMI, you gotta go to Aspen Tech Labs. A getaway. A $250 getaway. You can win that listener, $250 Airbnb card from Abode HR, the Gen Z experts and if it's your birthday, you know this, you know this, you can win rum from plum.io. And if you haven't taken your assessment yet, your Plum assessment, go to plum.io knock that out. But to be able to win all of this, you gotta register. You can't win if you don't play, chadcheese.com. Click on the free link up in the upper right hand corner and boom, you might end up a winner. Joel: By the way, the t-shirts I think you highlighted are Canadians. Chad: Oh Jesus. Joel: I went to Canada and I shipped a whole bunch of Canadian shirts 'cause it's a hell of a lot cheaper to do it in Canada than to do it from the US. So I have a funny story if you'll humor me. So in America it's just straight, what does it weigh? Doesn't matter if it's balled up, doesn't matter if it's flat, just how much does it weigh? And then they send it. Well, in Canada I show up with all these shirts and they're balled up, whatever. And I give the employee one and she goes, well that's gonna be about $14 to $15 per shirt and I'm like, hold on a second. [laughter] So what do I... I order a shirt in Canada and it's gonna cost me 20 bucks to get it shipped to me and she says, "Well, no. It's because it's kind of balled up." And then she pulls out this apparatus where it's sort of like a thin ruler shaped mailbox thing. And she said, "If it fits through this, it's much cheaper." So I said, "Okay, we're doing that." So I'm sitting there like 50 shirt bags, shaking these things out, flattening them up, pushing the air out of them, getting them through these little things. And it was way cheaper, talking $4 versus $15 to ship these things. But I made a few Canadians unhappy standing in line behind me thinking, what a dumbass American that I have to deal with. Chad: All you had to do was say you're sorry and they would've been okay with it. Joel: Sorry. Chad: Sorry. Joel: Sorry. And by the way, did you say birthdays? [laughter] SFX: Really? Can you feel the tension? Joel: Oh yeah. SFX: In the air right now? I know I can. I can feel it all the way down in my plum. Joel: All right. Another group of fans are celebrating another trip around the sun. They are great folks and we love them. We're talking about Trent Cotton, Lilly Siegel-Gardner, David Segal Bernstein, Swanindu Holder, Susan Parham, Serge Classen, Thomas Barrett, Jeff Hunter, George La Rock out with your you know what out, Roy Mauer and Sir Richard Collins. That's right, that's right. Another. SFX: Happy birthday. Joel: Another birthdays. Chad: Hello. That rolls right into events, kids. That's right. You know what's coming up? It's called RecFest. It's happening in Nashville. It's on September 13th and 14th. And the Chad and Cheese will be MCing the Disrupt stage on day one with special guests. Gonna tease that out there and I couldn't tell you who it is yet. At the end of the day, we're also working on the mechanical bowl for Cheeseman. Okay. We don't have it yet but we're trying to get there. Remember kids, RecFest is all about bringing the entire team. It's a day of learning, it's a day of bonding. And yes, there's gonna be some drinks and possibly some dancing but definitely get out there. Then we have HR Tech in Vegas. That's October 10th through the 13th where we're gonna be spending two whole days in the Fuel50 booth drinking, interviewing and whatever shenanigans we can come up with. I've been thinking about this one. We're gonna have to have some giveaways or some crazy shit that's happening. Joel: Yeah, we're throwing out new cardboard figures. [laughter] We're throwing out custom t-shirts. It could escalate fast. Chad: That could be sexy. Joel: Quite quickly. Chad: Then a few days later, fuck we gotta get on a plane and head to Paris. The only reason I'm doing this is because I love this fucking show. Unleash World in Paris October 17th and 18th. It is a staple event in the HR and recruiting industry. And this one, you gotta think about this one. If you're a startup and we talk about startups all the time and a lot of startups listen to this podcast, you gotta check out the Digital Startup Competition. You gotta get your voice out there so that the other partners, the other practitioners can hear who you are, what you pitch and not to mention, it helps you out. Go to the Startup competition. All of these events are at chadcheese.com, click on events in the upper right hand corner right next to free and register for them all. We'll see you all. Nashville, Vegas and Paris baby. SFX: All right. All right. All right. Chad: It's the topics. Joel: All right, gang. Well, we covered the acquisition of Bayard by Appcast last week and the move has its critics. Notably Appcast now becomes a competitor to its own clients, other recruitment agencies and job boards. Despite the potential benefits of providing brand and digital media strategy, going direct to corporate clients could strain Appcast's relationships with existing agency clients. That said, the company believes they intend to maintain its partnerships and continue providing programmatic technology to other agencies. But wait Chad, there's more. Appcast sugar daddy StepStone has launched a chatbot, wait for it, two years after acquiring Chatbot Pioneer Mya. I'm sure Paradox and Veritone are losing lots of sleep. Chad: Oh yeah. Joel: Over the new chatbot. Chad, what are your thoughts on this ongoing drama? Chad: Well, first off you didn't mention that I have a very direct statement from an anonymous Appcast employee that says, "Tell Cheeseman we're not buying CareerBuilders," so your prediction I hear is submarining right out of the gates. He said, "We don't want that mess," In addition to our commentary during last week's Appcast goes full blast episode, and everything that you just read down I think that was mainly AIM Group stuff which was a great article by the way. Here are some listener comments and questions. First, one listener says, "Bayard much like agency tech player Radancy, now cannot be seen as an unbiased advocate for the employer. Ad agencies are meant to be about people, relationships, customer service. Those are hard standards to uphold when you grow to a certain size and start adding so many SaaS and tech elements." So, what do you think about that? Joel: I think they are overestimating the importance of people. And particularly long term. Look, I think the people thing is still a big deal. I think the lunches, I think the front row tickets at Bulls games, whatever kind of perks, the nine holes at whatever is still important. But long term and we're gonna talk about some AI Palooza going on last week. But Spotify which we'll touch on, launch what they call a sidekick which is essentially like a little Batman or a little Robin to your Batman. Chad: Shopify, yeah. Joel: That is there for all the answers. I think a smart agency is gonna make technology where you feel like you have a little Robin to your Batman there to answer all your questions, there to make you sort of confident, give you data on how things are going. That you don't need to call your rep who's, let's be honest, is probably gonna churn out in a couple of years anyway. You're gonna have a trusted digital partner that's gonna be an agency expert to help you with all of your things. So to me long term the human thing is overrated. [laughter] I think the boutique agency is overrated. They're gonna have to create some tech that makes you feel like that agency rep is in your ear whenever you want it at all times, minus the three cocktail lunch. Chad: First off, this is not a black or white discussion. I think that there's plenty of gray in between. And the boutique agency, I think there's still, still plenty of want and/or need for that white glove service. When you get bigger you don't get that white glove service as much and there is a lot of churn. If you get into some of these boutique agencies who have had reps who have been around for, shit, decades. It's just a different feel, you know? So I think this is gonna be for the companies and actually the partners too who they want to do business with and how they want to do business. If they want that sidekick from Shopify which we're gonna talk about later, then awesome. But there are still going to be some more older, traditional, they want to feel like they're being taken care of because they're spending a lot of money. And so the boutique agencies I still believe have a long runway. That's me. Let's go to the next listener comment. Now that Appcast is an agency, how would other agencies react? They either need to find a new tech platform or just dump technology altogether. What do you think about that? [laughter] Joel: Well, they can't dump tech altogether. Chad: No. [laughter] Joel: That's just a losing strategy. Chad: Yes. Joel: That's just... Yeah. That's just cut the cord now and retire. So I don't think that's an option. I think for sure... Look, the history tells us that when these acquisitions are made, that when things happen, competitors get pushed out. They get squeezed. Products and services get less effective. Maybe they get more expensive like squeezing on the cost. You and I talked a while back when JobVite bought TextRecruit and Canvas was still around. And we had this little debate about, Canvas is done. And I think you were like, no they gotta have other options in the marketplace and yada yada. Well, fast forward a few years later, there is no Canvas. It's JobVite TextRecruit or whatever. And now iCIMS just has their TextRecruit which is their own product. So longer term again, no agency is going to wanna get into bed with Appcast long term. Either they're gonna have to white label somebody, this puts Jobcase, Pando, JobAdX even in a, to me a pretty good position to either get acquired or become a Switzerland, if you will, white label solution for programmatic because that's not gone. I think there's an opportunity for Indeed even to sort of make nice with some people. But I don't see any agency right now thinking long term, Appcast is gonna be our programmatic solution. They have to diversify, they have to look at other options. Chad: Yes, and that goes into our third this is actually a listener question that goes right into what you were saying. How many independent tech players are now left in the programmatic job advertising space and will they retool to go after agencies that are currently using Clickcast? I think that is a smart decision for any of the other programmatic players that are out there depending on how much development they have to do. I think there's going to be some opportunity for some of those boutique agencies who, again, they don't wanna give their money to Bayard. It's gonna be Appcast and I know Bayard's gonna go away but still they know that it's Bayard and they don't want their money going to really a head-on agency. So I think there's opportunity there. I'm just not sure who has the runway and cash to be able to make that happen. Joel: Yeah. And you mention a good point, like the Bayard name is going away. So Appcast is essentially going to become an agency. So it becomes even harder mentally to say, I'm gonna use... It would be like if it was Bayard programmatic, we're gonna use Bayard programmatic as a competing agency. So I don't see that. As far as how many there are, there just aren't. Terry Baker when they sold Pando or when Appcast sold, it was like, the number of companies that can be off the board is small. So some phones gotta be ringing off the hook for the last few independent programmatic solutions. And the bidding has to be going up nicely for them. I don't know how it's gonna shake out but it's gonna be complicated. Although some people are gonna be spending the next year in Fiji enjoying the riches of their programmatic solution that got acquired. Chad: Yeah. I think the big payday was in 2019. I think everybody held on and they were like, we're gonna wait. Pando did find a, obviously a good payday and a good sugar daddy out of Veritone later, but I really think that the payday was there. But again, listeners, we appreciate the comments, the questions, and if you have any of those, feel free to DM either Joel or myself, and we will do our best to try to get those on the show. I wanna talk about StepStone. I think it's interesting because I actually reached out to Sebastian Dettmers, who's the CEO of StepStone, and... Chad: Because they just launched a "StepStone's latest AI prototype". It's an AI interviewer. It's a chatbot, kids, that gets job seekers ready for their next job interview. So it's a chat interface that seems fairly basic, mainly because it's a prototype. I totally get that. So I asked Sebastian, StepStone acquired Mya Systems over two years ago. Is this a prototype Mya Systems tech, or is it Mya still relegated to being used by Totaljobs? And we really haven't seen anything out of that. And Sebastian said, "It's related to Mya as a foundation, but it's mainly StepStone engineering plus large language models." Which means it's not Mya at all. It's odd because StepStone's chatbot Mya, was supposed to bring better user experience to StepStone's Totaljobs out of the UK, but where is it? SFX: Where's the beef? Chad: We're having a where's the beef moment, I feel, for StepStone. And I'm gonna tie this around with Appcast. Here's a great example. If you go to mya.com, that's M-Y-A.com, the page hasn't changed since 2021. No announcements of new product innovation, no videos of the product in use of Totaljobs, just a stale old ass page from mid-2021. That's the StepStone way, okay? And Appcast cannot afford to allow that amateur hour shit during this Bayard transition. Appcast, we're looking at this, and as I see this from the outside in, and even from the inside out in some cases from sources, that Appcast is really, really the adult in the room when it comes to business around our industry. It's not StepStone. SFX: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Joel: I'm gonna give them a little bit of a pass, I think. We've been hard on StepStone for a couple of weeks. Chad: We have. Sorry, Sebastian. Just how I feel, man. Joel: Not a... Yeah. Sebastian is easily the best CEO that's still in high school, apparently from his picture. [laughter] Joel: So the Mya deal, I don't know. It felt kind of fire sale. It felt kind of like COVID, what the hell are we doing? I don't know if some investor knew another investor, maybe they just bought it off the clearing track. I don't know. But we do a European show, and there just is not a huge outcry for chatbots in the European market. I think that may be changing, which is maybe why they focus, but I think the real focus is the impending IPO that is apparently coming down for StepStone. They need to come to market with the programmatic solution, the agency solution, and yes, I think the buying career builder solution, even though I've been said, but that's insane. And a chatbot, right? They need to have some AI shit. They need to have some LLM in their tour with Wall Street. So to me, I don't think their customers were begging for it. I don't think until now the IPO, it has become a focus but it will be. Yeah, it's garbage from what I can tell and Paradox are just running circles around what they have, but at least companies will be able to check off the box. Yeah, we got the chatbot. But for the most part, I don't think there was a lot of heat on them to do this. They just kind of waited around instead of firing some engineers. Like most people, they said, hey, build out this chatbot thing. And they said, all the tech is shit. And they said, well, let's just start over. I don't know why Mya doesn't just redirect to StepStone's... Chad: Well, it does redirect to StepStone, but it's the same exact page. There's just no effort that happened there at all. Joel: Yeah. And these are big companies with people that do that shit. Chad: Yeah. Joel: And speaking of no excuses, Chad. Chad: Yes. Joel: Let's talk about our friends at Glassdoor. Chad: Oh, wow. Joel: They're introducing anonymous community features like interest bowls and company specific bowls to boost user growth and facilitate workplace conversations. Chad: Bowls. Joel: The platform leverages its Fishbowl acquisition and plans to differentiate itself as a constructive space while protecting anonymity. Moderation challenges will be addressed and potential premium features may be explored in the future. Glassdoor aims to compete with LinkedIn's identity focused approach targeting real and open discussions. Chad, your thoughts on the move by Glassdoor? Chad: Yeah, it feels like just a new feature that's added to Glassdoor's employer brand protection racket that they've been running for years. Right? Anyways, it's weird. Glassdoor acquired Fishbowl back in 2021. And we said that on that week in the podcast, anonymous employee forums are nothing but chaos and breeding grounds for trolls and gossip and distractions. With the sneak peek explainer video, it feels like Glassdoor is trying to move more toward LinkedIn. But does anonymous actually make sense? If I can reach out to someone on LinkedIn that isn't anonymous, why would I reach out to just simply somebody who I can't validate on bowls, on... If they're really an HR manager or what have you? But so I went into bowls and the first two groups are bowls. I'm sorry. That was recommended for me. First off was the overheard at work bowl. And here's how the very first post I came across posted by an HR manager. "Does anyone have an executive level HR leader that gossips with her executive admin and creates so much drama? The admin runs all over telling people the information that's becoming a nightmare. How can I get this to stop? The HR leader seems to be surprised and will relay information back to the admin who then shares it with others." Who wants any of this shit out there? Number one, okay. I mean, I automatically right out of the gate drama. Okay, number two. The second bowl I was actually recommended was the fertility bowl. Yes. [laughter] Chad: Post by a talent acquisition professional. "I am about six and a half months pregnant and I was just minding my own business, and a male coworker came up to me and said, "Don't take this wrong but your boobs have gotten huge." Like, what the fuck?" This is the kind of shit that you're going to get in these forums. This is not professional. This is more about real gossip and great distraction from real work. This is not real discussions and real work. This is real gossip and distraction, right? So any employer who, I don't know how you manage this, this is the problem, right? Because anybody can actually access it. You can get into it as whomever you want. Joel: Yep. Chad: I don't know. It just, to me it seems horrible, like a horrible, horrible idea. Joel: Yeah. Let's take a quick look in the R&D department at Glassdoor real quick. See, let's see what? Oh geez. Oh geez. All right. So Glassdoor bowls feels a little bit like a T-Rex. You're wiping on some SPF 50 as the comet comes crashing in. Chad: Dude. Joel: That that's gonna help them. Look, Glassdoor's traffic has been stagnant for two years. I mean, the lights are on, no one's home. I don't even know who they got to build out this project. It's more or less a Blind wannabe. Blind has around 9 million users. Apparently, they're hoping to get a few of them over. Glassdoor still has a lot of traffic at 55 million, but the future is not looking bright for Glassdoor. And to me, desperation moves like bowls is not the answer. Look, ultimately the world is going towards video, posting on TikTok about your employer. No one cares about anonymity like they used to. It actually is a negative if you wanna get internet famous. So people are fully happy to tell everyone that their employer sucks on TikTok. That sort of hurdle is gone. And frankly, AI makes these sites obsolete because I can go to Bard today by Google and type in, what is it like to work at Wells Fargo? It's gonna curate information from all these sites and give me a human, timely answer about what it's like to work at the company, both from a pro and con perspective. Joel: So for me, the combination of video and TikTok and reels and whatever else, and people becoming famous on hating their company, and AI basically taking all the information out there, giving you a timely answer, mean that Glassdoor's time as a review site apex predator are slowly declining, maybe quickly declining. And this move into bowls just underscores how bad it is at Glassdoor. Chad: Yeah, it's more like bowels. It's that bad. Joel: Ooh, that's good, Chad. That's good. Chad: Bowels Glassdoor... Joel: Like most of your jokes... SFX: 60% of the time, it works every time. Chad: That's right. Joel: All right, let's take a break and talk some AI. All right, Chad, a bevy, a bevy of AI focus news this week. Chad: Yes. Joel: Let me count the numbers and the ways. Number one, studies say using generative AI in business improves user's performance by 66%. That's averaged across three case studies. Number two, Hollywood is facing its first industry-wide shutdown in more than 60 years, largely due to the rise of streaming and threats of AI. Number three, Shopify is launching an assistant called Sidekick, whose CEO said it may finally give independent retailers the power to go head to head against Amazon. Number four, a pro Ron DeSantis super PAC commercial uses AI as a version of Donald Trump's voice in a new ad attacking the former president. Number five, Suumit Shah, founder of Dukaan app, no clue, recently boasted on Twitter about replacing 90% of customer support staff with chatbots, prioritizing profitability over empathy for employees. Maybe they can all find work on Fiverr, Chad, who's CEO, and this is the next story, said she believes AI will accelerate job creation by speeding up manual tasks, allowing more time for creative and interpersonal work. Chad, make the crazy pills stop. SFX: Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Joel: What are your takes and your highlights from all the AI news this week? Chad: Yeah. We've got a whole block again, kids, a whole fucking block. Just because everything's happening, we're looking for case studies. And this first one actually three studies that supported the customer service agents. The AI could handle 13.8% more customer inquiries per hour. Now, Teleperformance, which we talked about a few weeks ago, a company that does nothing but handle customer service for their clients, said that they had a 30% rise in the number of customers they could handle because their humans had co-pilots. Chad: And so there are great studies that are happening. Second one, business professionals who used AI could write 59% more documents per hour. That's ridiculous. I don't need more documents. Not to mention, I wonder how many hallucinations were in those documents. But here's the big one. Programmers used AI. They could do 126%, 126% more projects per week. Humans start becoming more of a QA QC element instead of the coding workhorses in this case. Everybody's looking for cases. Cases are being pushed at us very, very quickly. But the big question is, especially with all these cases, are we just training the large language models? And that is one of the things that writers and actors are having taking to issue. Pay and then also also this, Bob Iger during an interview last week, commented on the WGA and SAG strikes, "It's very distracting to me. There's a level of expectation that they have that is just not realistic, and they are adding to the set of challenges that this business is already facing. Quite frankly, very disruptive." Here's a response to that quote from Guardians of the Galaxy actor Sean Gunn, play it up. Sean Gunn: I think that when Bob Iger talks about what a shame it is, he needs to remember that in 1980 CEOs like him made 30 times what the worker, what their lowest worker was making. Now, Bob Iger makes 400 times what his lowest worker is. And I think that's a shame, Bob, and maybe you should take a look in the mirror and ask yourself why is that? And not only why is that, is it okay? Is it morally okay? Is it ethically okay that you make that much more than your lowest worker? And if so, why? Why is that okay? If your response is, that that's just the way business is done now, that's just the way corporations work now, well, that sucks. And that makes you a shitty person if that's your answer. So you should come up with a better answer than that. Chad: Yeah. So it sounds like Sean has been listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast for a while, because that is just about verbatim what we've been saying for a few years. As guys like Bob Iger rake in the cash, writers and actors need to solidify what their future looks like financially. And they need to be on the offense against technology where large language models can write scripts, voice commercials, and maybe even become body doubles for next to nothing. So that does nothing but put more cash in Bob's pockets while writers and actors that aren't top tier actors, continue to get the shaft. They're going on the offense, which I think is pretty amazing. And you're not going to see this happening from customer service reps, right? They don't have, there's not a customer service rep lobby... [laughter] Joel: No. Chad: That's out there. These guys have one. So, do you think that this is going to make an impact on anything other than just their own industry? Joel: Well I would say I was 100% bearish on the writer's strike. To me, the actors coming out and particularly the big name actors, I know Matt Damon is out there, I think there's some news about Tom Cruise. Hollywood still needs the big time marquee names and like you said, it's the small actors, it's the extras, it's the writers for sure that are putting out content that AI can easily replace. You're not gonna replace Brad Pitt in a movie with a digital Brad Pitt anytime soon. Now, that may eventually happen. So I was glad to see that. I think that this isn't my lane. Hollywood isn't necessarily, as you can tell by my looks, isn't exactly what I'm an expert on, but I got to think that history says the market will find ways to produce content that does not include writers, these extras that the market is going to, for shareholder value for quarterly revenue, they're gonna do more reality TV. They're gonna do more unscripted stuff. And by the way, the new "Bachelor" coming out is 71 years old. So like that kind of shit, by the way, he looks younger than both you and I put together. [chuckle] Joel: But anyway, 71, he had the Clooney package at the plastic surgery facility that he got updated. Chad: Lead press on face. Joel: Anyway, there's gonna be more reality stuff. There's gonna be more international stuff. A lot of talk about Netflix producing stuff overseas where they don't have these laws, they don't have these issues. You can't unionize. So ultimately and unfortunately, the market is gonna find ways to keep producing cheap content regardless of what Bob Iger says. Now, I think that, and we had a great interview with Tom Kenny yesterday that we'll publish at some point in the near future, but that's a short-term solution. I think that's really short term thinking. I think long term, if we don't have an incubator for new content creators, if we don't have an incubator for the next Robert De Niro, the next Meryl Streep, we're all gonna lose in terms of lack of creativity, lack of just life on screen... Chad: There're gonna be no more De Niros. That's the thing. Joel: Yeah. I think Broadway is gonna become really important because live actors and seeing things live. Things are gonna be really interesting long term. But I think once you start losing that creative edge and why we watch these things to begin with, Hollywood is gonna have to eventually look in the mirror and say, "We have to bite the bullet. We have to pay these creators a fair wage. We have to give them fair terms on streaming and residuals." I think that's ultimately where they're gonna have to end up. But I think for the short term, there's gonna be a lot of pain, a lot of shitty content that we have to watch until we get to the point where everyone realizes, "Yeah a creative, creative genius and creativity matters," and we're losing that in the way that we're doing business today. Chad: Yeah. No question. And then jumping over to Shopify real quick. Joel: Yep. Chad: And looking at large language models, their Sidekick, which is really just a copilot, but it's a copilot for entrepreneurs who use Shopify. These are individuals who, in many cases, going against Amazon. And this new model is really cool 'cause it's like a personal assistant. It is a digital assistant, but even more so like a personal assistant. And if you take a look at some of the demos of what it can do just for the Shopify shop, it was pretty amazing. And this is just phase one. So I think watching truly smart and amazing people use large language models for business will be exciting to watch. While we talk about the risks and we'll continue to do that, we've also gotta look at the upside. And there's some amazing upside to these technologies. We're going to need, whether it's for actors, the screen guild or even smaller entrepreneurs, we're going to have to have legislation that starts to put rules in place. Whether Europe does it first or the US does, we are going to have to do it, or it's gonna go off the rails, and it can incredibly fast with this tech. Joel: So some of the stories that stood out to me... And also by the way, Apple is creating Apple GPT apparently. Chad: Yeah, go for it. Joel: So we're gonna be able to talk about Apple doing some shit in a few weeks, probably. So I'll talk about Sidekick at first. How many small businesses, "Hey, I love to make," I don't know, "Soap. I love to make organic soap," [laughter] or, "I love to do," I don't know, "Coloured shoe... " Whatever's like... People have these gifts. Chad: Yeah. Joel: And then they run into like, "Oh, I gotta make a company. Oh, I gotta pay taxes. I gotta do all these things." Sidekick is amazing because now you have an expert where you can say like, "What are the tax laws around employees in Nevada?" Or, "How do I fire somebody?" Or, "How... " All these questions that are really challenging for small business, they'll now have a copilot, a Robin, if you will, to answer those questions. I think what's gonna be interesting is how long is it gonna take someone in our industry to create a Sidekick for recruitment or for small business? So think about how many small businesses, "Gee, I gotta hire. I don't know what the hell to do. I just post something on Craigslist and hope for the best." Chad: Yeah. Joel: If they have a sidekick that's like, "Okay, here's some great ways you can recruit someone locally," or, "Here's how you use LinkedIn or how... " "What does it cost? Give me a price breakdown between Indeed and all these other solutions." Somebody needs to create that. And I'm sure that they will, not just 'cause I'm saying it, but somebody needs to create these things because co-piloting for recruiting, small business, hiring is gonna be a big thing. So to me, Sidekick is a sign of things to come. Chad: Yes. Joel: The next thing that stood out to me, the political ad. Chad: Oh yeah, the DeSantis... Joel: Holy hell. Chad: Yeah, the DeSantis one. Yeah. Joel: Look, you think Facebook in '16 was crazy? This shit is crazy. And you and I are old enough to remember... Remember Willie Horton? Chad: Yes. Joel: Remember Lee Atwater, the ad that was created and how, look, to say that it was a little stretch was being nice? Chad: Oh wow. Joel: There is no regulation on this. There is nothing that even says at the bottom, "This is an AI-generated video," or, "This is an AI-generated... " Chad: Voice. Joel: Voice, right? Nothing. This is gonna be Wild West. And as these candidates start losing in the polls, they start... They're gonna get super desperate. There's gonna be some crazy ass ads and shit that goes down. People like my dad are not gonna know what the hell's going on. Joel: It's gonna create immense confusion in the marketplace and for voting. And oh my God, this is... If AI runs amuck in the election in '24, it's gonna make 2022, 2020, 2016 look like child's play, because AI is gonna just fuck everything up in the election. Anyway, that's a little bit darkness for me. [laughter] The third thing that stood out for me is the customer support reduction. 90% is no joke. And this is going to be a symptom of many companies. As soon as Wall Street catches on that you can release 90% of your customer service, you can let go of a percentage of your salespeople, your marketing people to AI, things are gonna get really ugly in terms of layoffs, and this is just a sign of that. There's a new solution, a new software solution called Air. It's at air.ai, if you wanna check it out. They're doing beta signups right now. And the people that I know that have been using it say that it is mind-blowing. They can do up to 40-minute customer service calls. They sound like a human being. They answer you as... The question as if it is the right answer to that question. Some shit like that is gonna disrupt the world in a big way. So for me, the three things to really focus on from this week is the Sidekick, the political landscape is gonna get nuts, and I think the layoffs in terms of customer service are gonna get pretty ugly. Chad: Yeah, there are gonna be very few areas that are not going to be touched by AI. Even from a plumber's assistant, you have your copilot with you to be able to help you with the diagnosis of the problem or AC, your HVAC, right? And that could be very helpful in an uptime in being able to get people into positions, those types of positions. But other positions, you're right, like the Teleperformance situation. I guarantee you, they're gonna be looking at shedding people very quickly, 'cause they've been training that AI for a good amount of time. Joel: Yep. It's funny how both sides have used the morality argument in the past few months. You have Elon Musk saying it's a moral issue that people should get back in the office. And now it's a moral issue that companies should continue to retain customer service people. So the morality issue, to me, doesn't hold a lot of water, whether it's the company using it or the employees, because ultimately, the dollar decides how companies are gonna respond. Chad: If that's the world you wanna live in, I hate to be in your world. Joel: One world we'll talk about right after the break is the world of sex bots. Hang tight. Chad: Yes. Joel: Oh, you thought we were done with AI, Chad? Oh, no. Chad: Yeah. Joel: Oh no. We just saved the sex bots for last. Former Google executive, Mo Gawdat, is warning the world of sex dolls seemingly "alive" and dating apps with AI "avatars" that are as good as the real thing, minus, of course, the shared barbacoa bowl at Chipotle if you're on a date with me. Anyway, he suggests that AI could simulate human sexual intimacy, leading to a redesign of society and relationships. Gawdat said, "If we think a few years further and think of Neuralink," which you've talked about, Chad, that chip in your head, "and other ways of connecting directly to your nervous system, why would you need another human being in the first place?" Chad, sex bots are evolving. Your thoughts? Chad: Relationships are hard. Let's just go ahead and put that out there, right? Joel: Yeah. Chad: And if you're not an amazing-looking dude, it's gonna be really hard for you to find a date. Unless you're very charismatic, what have you, if you're a total douchebag, it's gonna be hard. Hit the easy button. And the easy button could be a sex bot, or it could be, we talked about the AI, a sexual partner that is on your phone that's literally just a AI sexting bot. Joel: Yep. Chad: There's gonna be a variety of all of those, and they're going to be, unfortunately, they're gonna be very, very big industries. I mean, they are. Beyond that, I don't wanna think about [laughter] chips in our heads and animatronic women that are running. I just can't go there. Okay? [laughter] I just... I refuse. [laughter] Joel: Look, you're right. Dating is hard. Relationships are hard. Chad: They are. Joel: How much easier is it to just default to putting on a headset and the Neuralink chip to where you actually feel, your muscles feel like you're touching someone and you're... That is crazy shit. And so we share articles in a Facebook feed, everyone that doesn't know, and we share this article. And I was reading it for the conversation here. And as I'm scrolling down, looking at stuff, and you know how you get ads in a lot of these sites that are just random ads? And I'm scrolling down and I look at a woman on a couch. I'm like, "Oh, she's kinda cute." And I keep scrolling. I'm like, "Wait a minute." I scroll back. It's a fucking sex bot. I was tricked as I'm scrolling to think that's a real person. [laughter] And I thought, "Wait a minute, that's not a real person." Joel: So even the literal robots, the physical ones, not just the AI ones, are blowing my mind. So the guy talks about a company or an app called Replika in this story. It's R-E-P-L-I-K-A. It's already live. I go to this thing. It's scary as hell. And I finally get VR. I finally get why everyone's excited, [laughter] because you can put on a VR headset and you can interact with a "person." And it doesn't have to be sexual, it could be like, "Hey, we're watching the game together," or, "Hey, we're gonna go have wings together," whatever. So that is really scary stuff. The site says, "It's an AI companion who is eager to learn and would love to see the world through your eyes. Replika is always ready to chat when you need an empathetic friend." There are already 10 million people using this app that I just found out about. And with AI, this companion is with you. Your whole life now can be at the Playboy Mansion as Hugh Hefner. You can throw in as many women as you want, doing whatever the hell you want. We are so screwed as a species. Forget population collapse because we're not having babies now, [laughter] we're really not having babies in the future. I present you again, one of our favorites, Bill Burr, to describe exactly what the future is gonna look like. Bill Burr: They're going to make Victoria's Secret supermodels, just absolutely like Paris Runway looking supermodels. And you're gonna be able to come home to one of these things. And it's gonna laugh at all your jokes. [laughter] It's gonna sit down and watch the game with you. It doesn't get any better than this. [laughter] Yes, it does. [laughter] And it's gonna get up and make you a fucking, I don't know, a Bundt cake or a meat pie, whatever the fuck you people eat, right? [laughter] There's not gonna be a human woman in here that's gonna be able to compete with that for longer than 90 minutes. Even on your birthday. By the third trip to the fridge, she's gonna be like, "Yeah, fucking get it yourself. What am I? Your slave? [laughter] Go fuck yourself." And after when you've been with one of these robots, sex dolls, these, you're not gonna be able to go back to a real woman. With all her hopes and dreams and her needs. [laughter] You're gonna be coming home, she's like, "What is going on with you? We're not connecting. We need a date night." All you'd be thinking is like, "How do I shut this fucking thing off? [laughter] What is it on? Nagging mode?" Joel: And my Oculus is in the mail, Chad. We out. Chad: We out. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast-forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey, or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt. But save some soap, because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.

Hourly hiring remains incredibly challenging for employers all over the world. Fountain is one of the leading solutions to help companies solve this problem. That’s why we invited Fountain CEO Sean Behr to the show. Hot off the heels of a recent acquisition and live from SHRM, if you’re doing high-frequency hiring, this interview is a must-listen. PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by: Disability Solutions helps forward thinking employers create world class hiring and retention programs for people with disabilities. Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast. [music] Joel Cheeseman: Oh, yeah. What's up, kids? You're listening to the Chad and Cheese Podcast. We are recording live from the Aaron Booth at the SHRM National Show in beautiful Las Vegas, Nevada. This is your host, Joel Cheeseman, flying solo as Chad works on his savage tan on the beaches of Portugal. And today I would like to welcome Sean. Don't call him Grizzly Bear. He's more of a teddy bear. Sean Behr, CEO at Fountain. Sean, welcome to the show. Sean Behr: It's good to be back, man. This is great. And it's SHRM. Joel Cheeseman: It's good to be in the trenches, right? Sean Behr: It is right here. Joel Cheeseman: You and your ivory tower, the CEO. It's good to come down and hang out for a little bit. Sean Behr: In the booth, meeting people. Joel Cheeseman: In the booth. So speaking of, you guys have a nice presence over there. Any quick takes on how the show's going so far? Sean Behr: The show's great. There's a lot of people here. I think we're getting good traffic and having lots of meetings. Look, anybody will tell you that your number of leads you get by people just walking up to your booth is really small. You've got to do the work before the conference and after the conference. But this is a great show. You've gotta be here. I have to be here just to talk to you. Joel Cheeseman: Of course. Of course. What better reason? Obviously. So everyone that goes by the booth knows what you guys do. Some of our listeners do not. Feel free to give a little bit about you, but also what the hell does Fountain do? Sean Behr: Let's start with Fountain. I'll take the second part first. Fountain is all about high volume hiring. So think about roles that are your frontline workers, where you're hiring lots and lots of them, thousands and thousands of them. Most of the time and most of the booths here at SHRM are focused on knowledge workers, where you're trying to reward knowledge workers, retain knowledge workers, hire knowledge workers. Fountain is focused on the hourly worker or the blue-collar, grey-collar worker around the world. Someone who's in the front lines, someone who's doing a task every day, typically an hourly worker here in the US or in North America. And we help customers hire those workers at scale. We're honestly the best solution. If you're hiring thousands of hourly workers, Fountain is the best software solution. I call it a conversion machine. You go from sort of getting a few people through your door to lots and lots of people getting through your door, coming to work for you. Your stores go from understaffed to fully staffed at Fountain. It's a little bit about Fountain. For me, I'm a technology entrepreneur, so it's actually my fourth journey here. Joel Cheeseman: Look at you. Your mom must be so proud. Sean Behr: I'm working on it. Maybe if I get to five, she will be. [laughter] Joel Cheeseman: Okay. Sean Behr: No, mama bear is always proud of her teddy bear. [chuckle] Joel Cheeseman: I like that. Sean Behr: But yeah, this is my fourth journey and the best one so far. So I did one in e-commerce, one in ad tech, one in automotive, and now one in HR. Joel Cheeseman: Awesome. I'm excited to have you on the show. So just a little bit, he's too proud to not say it, but I would refer to you as one of the apex predators of the new breed out there. You've raised around $219 million. You were founded in 2014, so there's a nice track record there. I wanna jump quickly from some recent news where you guys acquired a company. I won't steal any of your thunder. Talk about the acquisition. Sean Behr: Yeah, we're really excited. We found a company and a team, Clevy, which they've been in the AI conversational, AI, HR space for the last couple of years. I was fortunate enough to meet them, get to know them. And when I look at an acquisition, I'll talk a little bit about the company, but when I look at any acquisition, I've done a lot of them in my career, the first thing you're looking for is team. Are these people the right kind of people? Are they gonna fit in with Fountain? Are they gonna help you move your mission forward? And so that was the first thing. And the Clevy team checked the box 10 times over. Second thing is, they have unique domain experience. Their product is focused on the conversational AI technology between workers and employers, which is great for us. And then third thing is, it plays into this trend of AI. I know a lot of people have spent a lot of podcast air... Joel Cheeseman: It's kind of a hot topic. Sean Behr: Lots of podcast air being spent on AI and generative AI and large language models, but there is some value in that. And again, not buying all the hype about it, but if you can deploy it to accelerate the mission, and at Fountain, our mission is to open opportunities for the global workforce. I'm interested in any kind of an acquisition that's gonna help accelerate that mission and bring more value to our customers and importantly, more value to workers around the world. Joel Cheeseman: So Clevy is based in Paris. So I have this vision of what closing a deal with a Paris company looks like. Paint the picture for me. How many bottles of wine did you go through? Sean Behr: They have excellent taste. [laughter] Sean Behr: In both wine, champagne, good food. But they are a hardworking entrepreneurial team. Incredible people to work with. But yes, good champagne. Joel Cheeseman: Yeah, that was my next question. We cover Europe quite a bit and there seems to be something in the water in Paris. Some hardworking people that know workforce tech somehow. Sean Behr: Defying the stereotypical. Look, we can't all be in Portugal on the beach. Joel Cheeseman: No, we all can't be Chad. That's for sure. Sean Behr: Only some of us can, but not all of us can. [laughter] Joel Cheeseman: So, news came out, I think it was in March, that you had launched Fountain AI. And part of Fountain AI was conversational AI, ChatBot, whatever you wanna call it. And then you turn around and buy Clevy. Was Clevy the back end? Did you find out that we couldn't quite do it as well as Clevy did it? What happened there between March and the announcement? Sean Behr: Actually, we were doing great, but really saw the power of what we were doing. So first thing I'll say is, ChatBot's not enough. We've all been on ChatBot conversations that lead to nowhere. Sean Behr: Just slows you down, doesn't get you the answer. And how many times have you been with a ChatBot or on a phone call where you're like, just can I speak? I need to speak to a representative. I wanna talk to a real human. So, ChatBot's not enough. We were really proud of the conversational AI technology we developed in house, but very quickly realized we could accelerate that even further. With the Clevy team and helping them join us as well as help accelerate the efforts we were already making. To give you kind of an example, our AI technology was great. It would help you collect information from applicants. We're all about how do you make it easy for an applicant to wanna work for you? For, the labor market in the hourly work world is incredibly competitive. Try to go look at any grocery store in the US. And there's signs up that say we're hiring, they're always hiring. We're... Joel Cheeseman: With bonuses. Usually. Sean Behr: With bonuses. Yeah. Nice bonuses now. What we say is, you've gotta make it great from the moment the person wants to apply for your job. If you only make it great after they start working for you, you're gonna miss out on 95% of the people, 'cause they're gonna go somewhere else. A lot of these hourly workers, they're applying to eight, nine, 10 jobs simultaneously. Which is incredible. I mean, and they're doing it all on their mobile device. If you can engage with them where they are, whether that's through an AI ChatBot or a mobile first application, or a way to use SMS or WhatsApp, if you're in Europe, those things get you a better way to engage with the applicant. And you can get more people through your funnel, more people to your front door, and then your stores become fully staffed. Joel Cheeseman: Yep. So, as you know there are a lot of established players in the conversational AI ecosystem. Where do you guys fit in? Are you an also competitor? Are you different? Are you playing catch up to them? Is it pretty much equal at this point? Where do you kind of like rank everyone at this point? How do you see it? Sean Behr: Yeah. I mean, the way I would say it is two things. I think, the conversational AI technology has rapidly evolved over the last 12 months. I mean, obviously ChatGPT is an open AI, but lots of other companies have made huge leaps there that have made conversational AI ChatBot technology, I would argue a table stakes issue. You just have to be pretty good at it. It's sort of a feature. It would be like having an applicant tracking system that doesn't do background checks would be really weird. You've gotta have conversational AI technology, I think as a table stakes feature, the thing we've realized is you can't, being able to just chat AI with an applicant isn't enough. You need to be able to schedule an interview. Which means you need to know what is inside the recruiter's calendar. Sean Behr: What availabilities do they have. So that you can say to an applicant, Hey, here's some windows for interviews and book those interviews. Those are the things you need to be able to do that you can't just do with a conversational ChatBot. You need to be able to upload a driver's license if the job requires a driver's license or upload a nursing license if the job requires a license. Those things can't be done with just a ChatBot. You've gotta have deeper technical capabilities built into that. So the ChatBot can be a front door. But what's behind the door is way more important. Joel Cheeseman: Interesting. So you bill yourself as a labor ATS, why not just an ATS? Sean Behr: Yeah, that's a great question. Joel Cheeseman: Why so fancy? Sean Behr: Yeah. Listen, you gotta stand out somehow. Look, the world of ATS is an old, we've all had ATSs for 20 years. I've bought them 10 times over at 10 different places. The thing we think about though is most HR professionals who are generally knowledge workers make an ATS decision based on their own experience for them, for their peers, for the coworkers around them. Without thinking, Hey, I've got 10,000 people in the field who don't have a laptop. How do you build a labor? How do you build an ATS that works for labor? And that's how we came to this labor ATS, one of the things I did when, this now three and a half years here, or three years from the day one, I've said, look, we've gotta focus on the hourly worker. The blue-collar, grey-collar, hourly worker. That's our whole focus. And so labor, the labor ATS is just great marketing. Joel Cheeseman: Okay. Sean Behr: That's all it is. Joel Cheeseman: We'll go with great marketing, we'll go with great marketing. Sean Behr: It's like Pepsi. It's like the choice of a new generation. Joel Cheeseman: Is it harder to be a good ATS or a good conversational AI technology? Sean Behr: It's hard to be a good ATS. Joel Cheeseman: Interesting. Interesting. Sean Behr: Way harder to be a good ATS. [laughter] Joel Cheeseman: I can only imagine. I can only imagine. So you mentioned a little bit about the macro economy and things that are going on. You guys have raised a lot of money, so I'm assuming there's a lot of dry powder in your arsenal. But what's your take layoffs in tech? It seems to be a rolling recession, maybe, by some people's accounts, but I wanna know how you see the current state of the economy. Sean Behr: Yeah, it's an interesting time for a lot of tech companies. I think the best way I've heard it is, we're sort of in the... We're in the hangover zone. We're... Joel Cheeseman: A place I know very well my friends. Sean Behr: Yes. We both do. We're in the hangover zone. Here's the reason, the party was really great, from, call it 2012 to about 2021. 2020. Late 2021, and it actually got... Even when we thought the party was over at the beginning of COVID, turns out that was when the good stuff came out at the party. Joel Cheeseman: The good punch came out. Sean Behr: The real good stuff came out at that party. And so what you're paying for now in a lot of tech companies is you're paying for the excesses of the party, during the party, the number one thing was growth. Growth at all costs, growth no matter what. Which makes sense when capital is free, when you can just get more money whenever you want from investors. That very quickly changed. And now it is not, capital is free. Capital is really expensive, if you can get it. It's really hard to just get it. And part of that is most of the companies and most of the venture Act companies, they need to go public. Or they need to have a path to public or they need a path to an acquisition. The problem is that the door to an IP is closed. And... Joel Cheeseman: Is it opening? I just wanna... Sean Behr: It might be towards the end of this year, we'll see. Joel Cheeseman: CNBC really wants it to be back open, so... Sean Behr: I'm sure they would love it to be open. Joel Cheeseman: It's mostly closed for me, but not quite locked at this point. Sean Behr: Not locked. Joel Cheeseman: Okay. Sean Behr: But look, that downstream effect of not being able to go public means, "Okay, I've gotta figure out a way to find another path." And typically if you're trying to go for that and growth is no longer the number one thing, you've got to pivot to, how do I get profitable? And for many of these companies, profitability was actually like frowned upon for the last 10 years. [chuckle] Sean Behr: Now it's the number one thing is get profitable. Grow, but grow sustainably and grow profitably. Fountain was very fortunate. We've raised a lot of capital. We've run the business with a real capital efficiency. So we feel really good. It's put us in a position where our balance sheet and the amount of capital we have on the balance sheet is actually, something that makes the company even more valuable in this market. Joel Cheeseman: Interesting. So, touched on tech, which you guys don't really play in that area. Let's talk about what you do. The labor force, the essential worker if you will. What's your take on the health of that piece? Sean Behr: It's actually getting better and better. So the first thing is, look, Fountain's mission is to open opportunities for the global workforce. That's been our mission from day one. I'm proud of that mission. Last year we helped 3 million people find their next opportunity, which is just an incredible number. 3 million people finding their next job, finding the next thing that's gonna pay their rent, pay their kids' school, pay their grocery bill, whatever it is. So that's our focus. That part of the economy continues to be really, really strong. What's interesting is happening is you've got a lot of people in the knowledge worker world who have taken a step back and looked at their life over the last couple of years and made different choices. Joel Cheeseman: Yes. Sean Behr: And we had all this, you don't hear about it as much now, but the great resignation. You have this, generational decide where people are, "I don't know if I wanna work as much. I wanna have side hustle, I wanna, do all those things. Those things are primarily talked about knowledge workers. What I can tell you is even in the hourly work world, you're seeing some of that. I'll give you a real cogent example. If you think to yourself, I run a large warehousing company, let's say, and I've got a series of warehouses and I've got to hire 50,000 people a year to sort of maintain my warehouses, replace the people that quit, maybe expand a little bit. I base that model of 50,000 on people working 36 to 40 hours a week. What I think you're seeing in the hourly work world is, a portion of those people are saying, I don't wanna work 40 hours, I want 28. Joel Cheeseman: Sure. Sean Behr: 'Cause I got a side hustle of my own that I'm doing. And what happens for the... That's great for the worker. It gives them more opportunities out there. For the company that's hiring those 50,000 people, if 20% of the people wanna work 12 hours less, I don't need 50,000 people, I actually need 60,000 to do the same work that 50,000 people used to do. So opens up lots of challenges. It's a really robust and healthy market, but it's creating challenges for companies. We even hear things like from a customer who has said, look, "We've been doing this for 20 years. People come in now and they say, look, I'm gonna quit. I'm gonna drive for Uber. Now, I wanna try it. I wanna set my own hours." Is that mean like everybody quitting the company to go work for Uber? No. But 10% of people deciding they want to go deliver food, they want to go do a gig job, they want to drive for Uber or Lyft or DoorDash. It's a big impact on the company. Joel Cheeseman: Is it fair to say that's more of the rule now than the exception? The side hustle? Sean Behr: It's definitely the rule. Joel Cheeseman: In your space. Sean Behr: Yeah. It's definitely the rule. Joel Cheeseman: And to me it's, I look at Thumbtack or I look at TaskRabbit. Sean Behr: TaskRabbit. Joel Cheeseman: It may just be Task now. I don't quite remember. How does your tool... So a traditional ATS is you apply, you get hired, you go into a bucket and get interviewed, etcetera. The gig economy doesn't work like that. You put yourself out there, you get ratings from customers and whatnot. So does your tool somehow connect with what someone's doing on the side as well as their company? Can you recruit as well? Help me understand how and if they, you guys play with the gig economy? Sean Behr: Yeah. First of all, we have lots of customers in the gig economy. I mean, one of the reasons why those companies have been able to scale to the size they are is most of them power their workforces with for some. What's interesting is if you and I... If you work for a gig company and I work for a traditional retailer, let's say. And we're both going after the same person. You are offering flexibility, you're offering potentially better pay, you're offering work your own schedule, you're offering get started tomorrow and I'm offering submit your resume and then one of my recruiters will review it. And next week we'll probably reach out to you. By the time I reach out to you to say, "Hey, I'm really interested, Joel, come work for me." You're like, "I've already been working four days and it's kind of good. I'm liking what I'm doing. How much are you paying?" Now, if I then have to pay you more, try to swing you back towards me, that has a real impact. So one of the things that we do is we feel like we bring a competitive advantage to companies. We know that that worker is probably applying to eight jobs, 10 jobs even more. How do you separate yourself from the other eight to 10 jobs, including some gig jobs? One way to do it is to just pay a lot of money. Give a $2500 signing bonus. You'll get a lot of people through the front door. Joel Cheeseman: Is speed your secret sauce? Sean Behr: Speed is really, really critical. It's really, really critical. But it's not just speed for speed's sake. You still need quality. You still need to do your process. So me telling you, you can hire people in 20 minutes if all of the people are not a fit for you, well, the good news is we had speed. The bad news is I didn't really help you at all. What I need to be able to do is be really fast, have a lot of speed, but also deliver the quality for you. So making sure that the people that you do move fast on are a good fit for you. Either they fit with your culture, they have the right licenses, they have the right qualifications, they can do the job, they have the right shift availability and schedule flexibility. Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. Sean Behr: To do the job. All of those things are really critical, but you've gotta do it fast. In this market, you've gotta do it fast. One of the things I would say that's interesting is, in the blue collar versus... Blue collar, gray collar, hourly work versus the knowledge worker, one on the employer side speed is really critical in the hourly work world, and maybe not that critical in the knowledge worker side. You actually kind of want to go... Joel Cheeseman: The laptop class as Elon calls them. Sean Behr: Yeah. You want to go a little slow, you want to pick the right person. Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. Sean Behr: You wanna be perfect on those things. What's interesting, on the flip side though, for the worker, it's actually flipped. Right now, if you're a tech worker, and you're looking for a job and a new job opens up, you gotta be fast. Joel Cheeseman: Yeah, yeah. Sean Behr: Because you wanna get in there and get that job. Joel Cheeseman: Sure. So we've been doing this show for a few years now, and I feel like every year we're another year away from the robots taking over and everyone being unemployed. Where are you on automation? Sean Behr: Yeah. Look, my last company was in the automotive mobility space and at some point the cars are going to drive themselves. That's probably a long time away. [laughter] A really long time away. Joel Cheeseman: Okay. Sean Behr: 10 years, 15 years. But it is coming. The car will drive itself, but it is not coming tomorrow. Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. Sean Behr: Despite what other people might tell you. Where I'm gonna see, like, and there's been some hype around like, will generative AI replace humans? Will the ChatBots take over? And then all of us, we'll all be in, we'll all be in Portugal on the beach just hanging out while the computer works for us. Joel Cheeseman: AI ChadCheese. Sean Behr: That's right. [laughter] Joel Cheeseman: Produce content from the beach. Sean Behr: Content, exactly. I don't think you're gonna see that, for a long time. I do think what you will see though, is a lot of the things that are what I would call high use, low value tasks. If your job is primarily focused on high use low value task, that job is going to be impacted. I'll give you an example. Today at Fountain, the AI technology is smart enough to understand your... What you are looking for in an interview. Like when you can come, what you're looking for, what's good, what's not good, and also smart enough to go into a recruiter's calendar, grab slots, come back, book the interview on their own. Even the candidate can reschedule the interview. Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. Sean Behr: They can say things like, I want to interview next Thursday. I want to interview two Tuesdays from today in the afternoon. The AI technology is smart enough to interpret that and say, okay, this person means June 28th, between 12:00 and 4:00 PM Pacific. Joel Cheeseman: Yep. Sean Behr: And go in, find the recruiter's calendar, grab those slots. That is a lot of a person's job today doing that back and forth. How many of us have gone back and forth with somebody and like, okay, I can do 12:30, can you do 2:30? I can't do 2:30, I can do 3:30. All right, how about we just do 1:45, that's all gonna be replaced. So what I would say is it's not gonna replace... The robots are not coming for our jobs. You guys are safe... Joel Cheeseman: Maybe our wives. [laughter] Sean Behr: But what you will see is high usage, low value tasks, I think are probably going away. Joel Cheeseman: I feel like at the show, there's a mix of optimism and pessimism. I'd say skewing, pessimistic, the term nuclear winner has even been thrown around. But you, you have direct access to job postings. What companies are doing directly. You see the sales process and the trends in that from the trenches at Fountain. What's your take from what you see in terms of what's around the corner? Sean Behr: Look, it's hard to do my job and not be optimistic. But I am, I'm optimistic. I'm optimistic about where things are. I do think you're gonna see an incredible growth in the way that HR technology works over the next two to three years. Now that may have some negative impacts. There may be some companies that are currently exhibiting here whose value proposition is gonna be greatly diminished. Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. Sean Behr: There are also some companies probably down that way where their opportunity is just started. And so, look, there will be change, but I'm optimistic about where things are headed and, we'll see. Look at Fountain we say the future's bright. Joel Cheeseman: That is optimistic. For sure. I like that. Based on that commentary, what does the future hold for Fountain? Global growth? What's, you're not gonna be like, I don't know, a different kind of ATS are you or just dis to labor? Like what's the growth plan look like? Sean Behr: No. We're gonna be focused on the world of hourly workers and frontline workers. We think that's our space. We feel like we've earned the right to own that space. And so, you're gonna see us make really great moves in the world, but focused exclusively on hourly workers. And we're gonna continue to be... Do everything we can to help our product deliver great experiences to workers and to hirers to try to open up opportunities for those workers. And so that's gonna be our focus. You're gonna see us a lot globally. We already have a good staff there. Our technology is used in 77 countries today. We'll probably continue to grow that, but we'll continue to grow within each of those countries as well. Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. Sean Behr: Yeah, excited about the future, excited about Fountain. Joel Cheeseman: Well, cool. You, we talked about the ATS, we talked about the conversational AI, but you guys do a lot of other stuff. What sort of is trending at the company in terms of features that you're excited about? Sean Behr: Yeah. Anything that is... Coming back to this point, anything that is gonna make the applicant experience better. We're super passionate about. You typically, if you go try to apply for a job now as an hourly worker and have to do things like create an account with a username and a password and the password's gotta have an uppercase letter and a special character, and it's gotta be nine characters long, that's just so I can apply for the job. Just so I can have the privilege of applying for this job that I don't even know if I want yet. We're passionate about anything that's gonna eliminate that friction for the worker and for this applicant. Sean Behr: But I think you'll see us continue to evolve in ways that will make it frictionless for workers to apply to those jobs. And for the companies that are hiring, how do we make it so that they don't have to pay the $2500 sign on bonus? Because the number one testimony I get from a customer is we used to have to pay bonuses for these jobs. And with Fountain, we don't. I'm like, can you go tell everybody else about that? Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. You have native apps on iOS and Android. I assume a lot of your traffic flows through that. Talk about the impact that mobile's had on the business. Sean Behr: Yeah, mobile is key. Look of... This year, we're probably north of two million people hired at Fountain around the world. Almost 90% of those people applied for the job on a mobile device. Joel Cheeseman: 90? Sean Behr: 90. Joel Cheeseman: Wow. Sean Behr: It might be high 80s, but it's roughly 90%. It is. I always tell CHROs, go to your careers page, go to a job posting, try to apply for a job, but you have to do it on your phone. You can't look at your laptop because what happens is you talk to an HR person and the first thing they do is they open up their laptop and I'm like, yep. Problem is that most of the people who are applying for your job are using a screen that's four inches big. And when you bring that to them, all of a sudden the design, the usability, the functionality of their experience comes really clear. I've had CHROs just essentially give up. And look, I'm not... I spend a lot of time on my phone. I probably spend too much time on my phone, but I can tell you like if you ask me to upload a resume on my phone. Joel Cheeseman: Crickets. Sean Behr: I don't even know if I could do it. I'm gonna probably give up. Say, let me find a job that doesn't require that. Joel Cheeseman: Yeah. There must be another CEO job somewhere. Sean Behr: Exactly. Joel Cheeseman: But I don't have to upload a resume. Sean Behr: Exactly. I don't even have a resume. I don't even know. Joel Cheeseman: When was the last time you actually interviewed for that? Sean Behr: A long time. Joel Cheeseman: Anyway, that's enough about you. ATS's now rely a lot on marketplaces for their success. So people create an app, put it on the platform, companies... Company employers or customers can access that service. To my knowledge, you guys have not taken that jump. Will you? And if not, why not? Sean Behr: Yeah, we have not. We're focused exclusively on software that makes the hiring process better. From a marketplace perspective, we think there's great players out there. There's lots of places to get applicants. There's lots of job boards. There's lots of things like that. We're exclusively focused on how do we deliver software that makes our customers successful in hiring the applicants they've got in the pipeline. And that's... Look by the way, that's a really hard job. We've been at it since 2014, and I don't even think we're halfway there. I feel like every day I wake up and I'm more clear that I have more to do in this world, despite the fact two million people getting a job this year, not enough. Joel Cheeseman: So you talked about what you're not or not looking to do, but what are people saying about Fountain two to three years from now in terms of what you provide if it's different from today? Sean Behr: What they'll say is one continued focus on the hourly frontline worker will be there. What's different than today is I think you'll see us expand in our portfolio approach to those hourly workers. You'll continue to see us develop innovative technologies around how do you help customers acquire more of these workers, onboard these workers. One of the funny things about Fountain, one of our original names, the project name that the company actually started under, was an Onboard IQ. So you can imagine. What folk... Joel Cheeseman: Sexy. Sean Behr: Exactly. One thing you should know about me is I'm a terrible namer of companies, always happen... Joel Cheeseman: Fountain's pretty good. Sean Behr: Fountain's pretty good. Joel Cheeseman: I don't know if you came up with that, but it's pretty good. Sean Behr: It's the only one... But every other one has been not great. But you'll see us do things around onboarding. Anything that we can do that's gonna power a customer's business from a labor perspective, super interesting at Fountain. Joel Cheeseman: Own the life cycle, it sounds like. All right, Sean, we appreciate your time today. We know you're a busy guy. For our listeners who want to know more about you or the company, where would you send them? Sean Behr: Yeah, just go to fountain.com. You can learn all about our solutions and what we're doing. And you can follow us on socials, on LinkedIn, Twitter. And you can follow me @seanbehr. Joel Cheeseman: Easy enough. Thanks, Sean. Enjoy the rest of the show. This is Joel Cheesman reporting from the Aaron Booth live from SHRM National in Las Vegas. And that is another one in the can. We out. Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell. Enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey. Or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt. But save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.