top of page
Indeed Wave.PNG

Indeed Dumps Pay-Per-Application, 'YOU Days'

When the Chad's away, the Cheese will play. With Sowash taking a PTO day, Cheese welcomes guest co-host Jim Stroud, editor at SourceCon to fill-in. We're talkin' the state of sourcing, Indeed's double moonwalk from pricing and employees, a drop in the jobs report, Remote launching an Upwork competitor (or is it Fiverr?). Plus, life imitates art at Chipotle, Minnesota strippers and plenty of rizz. Enjoy, ya' filthy animals.


Joel Cheesman (00:47.156)

two guys who are just dripping with Riz. What's up kids? You're listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your cohost, Joel Bunker Cheesman.

Jim Stroud (00:51.486)


Jim Stroud (00:57.714)

And I'm Jim Heisenberg Stroud.

Joel Cheesman (01:00.292)

And on this episode, Indeed backtracks the state of sourcing and US job openings dropped to a two year low. Let's do this.

Jim Stroud (01:11.159)

Woop woop!

Joel Cheesman (01:14.244)

All right, guys, programmatic is all the rage. All the kids are doing it. It's dripping with Riz, like I said in the intro. Well, if you're into programmatic advertising, you gotta check out JobAdX. JobAdX is a programmatic solution that will help put your jobs on ludicrous speed for the best talent that you can possibly find. Now, in our last episode, we talked about Twitter getting into the job board game. Well, guess who backfills Twitter jobs?

It's appcast. And I know a lot of you out there using appcast, but do you want your jobs on Twitter with the whole cesspool of garbage content that's out there? Well, if you don't, you owe it to yourself to look at some new programmatic uh, solutions and you owe it yourself to check out job ad X one of our longest standing sponsors, we love them. And we know that you will love them too. Find out more by going to job at X that's J O B A D and the letter X.

dot com.

Joel Cheesman (02:19.228)

All right. So this is a special snow Chad bootleg edition of the Chad and cheese podcast. Now, for those of you don't know, Chad is gone. He's he's building his European real estate empire. He's MCing London events, etc. So so it's just me and a co host, which I'll get to in a second. But this is not going to be edited whatsoever. If we screw up, we screw up. If we say something like there's no turning back, right?

This is like your favorite Pearl Jam bootleg from 1996. It's going to have scratches. It's going to have, you know, the couple in the back making out. It's going to have the dog barking, like all things are going to. So, so be, be warned. This is what you signed up for today. And with that, I want to introduce our special, special cohost. Jim Stroud, the man, the myth, the legend is here with me today. Jim, welcome to the podcast.

Jim Stroud (03:12.982)

Whoop whoop!

Thank you sir for having me, I do appreciate it.

Joel Cheesman (03:18.212)

You bet. So for those of our listeners that don't know, man, your, your career has been Toad's wild ride. Uh, give us, give us like a 32nd, uh, career of gym. And we'll get to the present day stuff.

Jim Stroud (03:33.646)

Sure, 20 years in the biz, sort of an OG, worked for Microsoft, Google, Siemens, string of startup companies. At one point I was the global head of recruiting and sourcing strategy for Ransat SourceWrite. When I was not doing that, I was writing books, producing crazy videos and podcasts, and it brought me all to the job that I have today and I'm so excited about it.

Joel Cheesman (04:00.688)

we will get to in a second. But yeah, you and I met 18 years ago or so. You haven't aged a bit and I look like Gandalf from Lord of the Rings now. So yeah, right, right. What? Anyway, I won't get canceled on this episode. I refuse to do it. You worked at MCI, which I didn't.

Jim Stroud (04:02.379)


Jim Stroud (04:07.014)

Yeah? Well, this is a filter, so you know.

Jim Stroud (04:19.79)


Yes, that was my first gig in sourcing 1997. Stone Age.

Joel Cheesman (04:28.08)

And that create in college or in high school, I think I used to try to get people to sign up on MCI and I would get like a penny for every call they made or something like, I don't remember exactly what it was, but yeah, MCI, which became sprint, I think. Yeah. So long.

Jim Stroud (04:37.405)


Jim Stroud (04:41.678)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, well, yeah, British telecom bought them and then I think sold them to Sprint Something like that. Yeah

Joel Cheesman (04:48.324)

Yeah, we're old basically. That's, that's what we're saying. That's what we're saying. Well, Jim, I, I appreciate you coming on the show. Uh, don't try to don't, don't fuck it up. Okay. We'll, we'll figure this out. We'll figure this out. But so Jim, Jim is going to walk through the show, uh, with me and I'm going to guide him through this, but we have this thing called shout outs, Jim, and we have little shout outs, little things, little tidbits that have piqued our interest, but don't quite qualify as a, as serious news. So my, my first shout out, uh, goes to Riz.

Jim Stroud (04:59.228)

No promises.

Joel Cheesman (05:18.224)

Riz, which I mentioned on the show. So dad joke alert. So my kids, I have two teenagers and a six year old, and we have them fill out their Christmas list every year. And this year I thought I'd make a good, a dad joke. There's no good dad jokes. Well, I made a dad joke and I said, hey kids, did you add Riz to your Christmas list? Because I hear all the kids are looking for Riz. Okay. And they didn't like, they booed me, I guess. So anyway.

Jim Stroud (05:46.231)


Joel Cheesman (05:47.464)

It's Oxford's word of the year. It's short for charisma. So if you have Riz, you have charisma. In an effort to make this shout out relevant to recruiting, I said, wouldn't it be fun if I went out to your favorite search engines for jobs and looked for Riz to see if there are any job postings with the word Riz in it? Unfortunately, there are no jobs with the word Riz in it. So there's an opportunity for you employers out there

Jim Stroud (05:50.886)


Joel Cheesman (06:16.52)

People are searching Riz. They're gonna find your job if you just add the keyword Riz into it. However, LinkedIn, LinkedIn did not let me down, Jim. LinkedIn, some creative profiles. Let me say that. So a few profile titles that I found, one said Riz King. He's an up and comer for sure. Director of Riz was one that I saw. The master of Skimity Riz.

Jim Stroud (06:37.483)


Joel Cheesman (06:45.648)

Not sure what his core competency was. And my, my favorite, uh, profile on LinkedIn with the word Riz was certified Riz master at your mom's house. So that was, that was, that was, that was certainly, that was my favorite one. So anyway, uh, it beat out prompt. Situation ship, which I'm not quite sure what that is. And Swifty, which with.

Jim Stroud (06:48.641)

Skippy the Riz.

Jim Stroud (06:57.71)


Jim Stroud (07:08.419)


Joel Cheesman (07:13.896)

the year Taylor Swift has had. She was just named Time Magazine's person of the year. So Swiftie got beat out by Riz, but my shout out goes out to Riz. What you got?

Jim Stroud (07:19.082)


Jim Stroud (07:24.734)

Wow, wow. My shout out goes to Aitana. I think I'm pronouncing it right. She is the first digital influencer who is of Spanish descent, if that's the right way to say it these days. And, now she has pink hair and she has a million followers on Instagram.

And not only that, she's had deals with Dolce & Gabbana. She has deals with Couture and some other big names. And the person behind it, the company behind it, they were having issues with the female influencers that they were trying to employ, being late, not taking the job seriously enough, whatever. So they say, you know what? Forget all that.

Joel Cheesman (08:12.41)

Uh huh.

Jim Stroud (08:17.226)

Let's just get a digital influencer that we can control, who will always be on time, work 24-7, and it worked. So, Aytana is really just one of several digital influencers out there, believe it or not. So I see this as a shot across the bow to OnlyFans, for sure. Shot across the bow to adult entertainers, because these digital...

Joel Cheesman (08:20.293)


Joel Cheesman (08:36.274)


Jim Stroud (08:45.558)

people are only going to get more and more realistic. So after a while, a lot of people will have to get a real job, so to speak. This is, yeah.

Joel Cheesman (08:57.188)

No doubt. And I've called for this on the show for a while. And it's gonna take time. But look, dudes don't know the, either they don't know the difference or they don't give a shit. And we've covered this on the show.

Jim Stroud (09:09.143)


Joel Cheesman (09:11.432)

women and not just pictures, but video and the conversation is getting better. And like, there's going to be a day where only fans is out of business because you can go to whatever it becomes unless only fans becomes this where you pay, you know, 9.99 a month to have as many girls do whatever the hell you want with whomever they want all the time, uh, at your fingertips. And when VR becomes a thing,

And the audio is like a human. I mean, uh, yeah, this is going to a place where. Making millions on only fans showing your ass is, is it's on the clock because AI is going to take this stuff over. We can talk about the, uh, what this means for the human race and dating and the demise of like civilization, but we'll, we'll save that for the next time you're on, uh, five years from now, we're probably going to be an Armageddon, uh, by, by then anyway, and, and speaking of.

Jim Stroud (09:38.807)


Jim Stroud (09:55.79)

Heh heh.

Jim Stroud (10:05.354)

Yeah, truly.

Joel Cheesman (10:07.016)

of nakedness in real life. My next shout out goes to the Minneapolis stripper awards. Yes, you probably know that there were stripper awards, let alone that there are local stripper awards. So around 100 strippers gathered for the Minneapolis stripper awards this week. The event aimed to celebrate strippers while also highlighting the need to unionize. See, I brought it back to employment, which is what we do on the show. The awards had nine categories.

including the prestigious Miss New Boobies Award. This is for dancers who have been performing for less than a year. The Meg V. Stallion Award for performers working toward a degree, which we've all met those strippers in school working on their nursing degree, I'm sure. And the most sought after award of the night was the HBIC Award. If you don't know it, go Google HBIC, because again,

I don't want to get canceled on this week's show without Chad here. So that is my next shout out. The Minneapolis stripper awards.

Jim Stroud (11:15.03)

I'm going to have to do some research to verify your claims. So I'll look that up to Atlanta. Oh, that's the stripper capital. Yeah, Atlanta. I'm sure there is. There's no shortage of.

Joel Cheesman (11:18.448)

You're in Atlanta, right? Are you in Atlanta? There's gotta be a Strip Awards in Atlanta. That might be the national, either there or Tampa or Houston or Vegas maybe, or the Strip Awards. Yeah.

Jim Stroud (11:31.582)

Yeah, yeah, there's no shortage of those clubs that I've heard of. I don't frequent them. I've just heard of several of them within proximity of my home. Research is what it is. Yes, yes, yes. I do actually, I'm going to give a shout out to Sam Altman. He's been through the fire and now he's out with all the drama, you know, that heard about him leaving OpenAI, going to Microsoft and OpenAI said, Hey, we sorry, come back.

Joel Cheesman (11:37.917)

Of course not. Research, research. You got another shout out?

Jim Stroud (12:01.398)

You know, and now he's facing a competition from Google that released a new AI, Gemini, I believe it is. And yeah, word on the street is that the Gemini large language model is better than chat GPT, who knows who cares, maybe it's spin, but I like it because it's going to produce, bring it back to jobs, new jobs, new careers, because when you have this kind of cutthroat competition, these companies that want to...

Joel Cheesman (12:24.064)


Jim Stroud (12:29.29)

are going to want to hire the best, which is going to just raise the game up for everyone. So it's good to have a growth industry.

Joel Cheesman (12:34.885)


Like it. Well, better than chat GPT, but is it better than free stuff? Jim, uh, probably not. So I want to talk to our audience about free stuff from Chad and cheese. That's right. If you love free t-shirts and free booze, you're at the right podcast. We got t-shirts from our friends at, uh, at job get, we've got bourbon, a selection from Chad one for me from text kernel.

Jim Stroud (12:39.662)


Jim Stroud (12:45.307)


Joel Cheesman (13:03.56)

We got free beer from our friends at Aspen Tech Labs. And if it's your birthday in any particular month, we have Rum with Plum. That's right, if it's your birthday month, you could win a great bottle of rum from our friends at Plum.

Joel Cheesman (13:25.284)

That's right. And that brings us to this week's birthdays. That's right. Another trip around the sun for our fans, Matt Miller, Kim Stewart, Lars Kuhs, Chase Johnson, Patrick Hodgdon, Lana Schuman, Craig Anderson, Bob Scruggs, Matt Stubbsy Stubbs, Jeff King, Brandi Dawson, Tanya Truelove, Anoop Gupta, CEO of Seeked Out, and apparently some chick.

named Julie and so wash celebrate a birthday this week. So happy birthday to them. By the way, Chad is in London this week. He's finishing up a stint with TA tech, which will end our travels for this year. But if you want to find out where we're going to be the usual suspects,

Jim Stroud (13:55.947)


Joel Cheesman (14:21.212)

Go to, click the events link to keep track of where Chad and I are going. And also while I'm doing a little housekeeping here, every month we do a show called the Chad and Cheese Podcast Does Data. We've partnered with Toby Dayton at LinkUp to go over the jobs report every month. We look into his data, which is used by some of the best Wall Street firms out there. We dig into what's going on from a molecular level.

And what's we bring it down to the Chad and cheese audience. We take away the, the wall street speak and bring it down to main street. Uh, if you haven't checked that out, it's only on YouTube. Uh, so check out, uh, at Chad cheese. We do that because we have the best charts and graphs in the business, which we can't really relay over audio, but make sure that you check that out. Uh, a new one is coming out this week as a new report is being released.

Joel Cheesman (15:24.164)

Which brings us to our fantasy football leaderboard of the week. Do you play fantasy, Jim?

Jim Stroud (15:32.046)

Nah, not football. Different fantasy leagues. Ask me after the show.

Joel Cheesman (15:36.968)

Board games? I don't know, I don't want to get into it. Okay, what kind of sick games, kind of sick fantasy games are you playing? Okay, so we play fantasy football, sponsored by our friends at Factory Fix. The season's almost over. The top four get to the playoffs. This is really the final week of the regular season. Here is your top 12 leaderboard. And number one, she's been there almost the whole season. Michelle Sargent-Peppers is right there, followed by Marcy Mall-Rat.

Uh, Dina Pero for pyros at number three, jagged little Jill Patterson at number four, uh, Chad bought so wash, uh, no one wants to have a conversation with that Chad bought by the way, uh, FYI. Uh, number six, Joe bag of Dixon is, uh, is in that spot. Number seven, Brent, Brent Losey, uh, number seven, uh, number, number eight Joel. It's all good achievement. That's me.

Jim Stroud (16:22.911)

I'm sorry.

Joel Cheesman (16:32.776)

Number nine, cool. Mo Dean Osner number 10 Jasper, uh, the last European to make it into the league, uh, span Jart, cause he frankly just sucked after whining about why won't you let a European play fantasy football? Number 11, Dennis breakfast, lunch and Tupper number 12, the Caboose Kristen champagne air Bona. And that is your fantasy football leaderboard.

Well, Jim, when I have a co-host on, I like to talk, just dig a little bit about what you're doing. You've been around for a long time, have some great insight. Let's talk about sourcing. And I'm gonna give my historical perspective on sourcing, and then I'm gonna hand it to you to give us the current state of sourcing and the future of sourcing. So sourcing for me goes back really to like shally business, like foldable business card with Boolean strings.

Jim Stroud (17:12.738)


Joel Cheesman (17:29.404)

And search engines, no one knew about and don't exist anymore, uh, that you could use to find people that evolved into companies, hiring, solved hire tool that had all the people data and then all the bullion was built in. Like, what do you need? Of course, LinkedIn is growing this whole, this whole time. Uh, LinkedIn sues everybody, uh, throws out cease and desist. You can't take our data. Um, and basically effectively puts a lot of people out of business.

Um, there's a big pivot in the industry, uh, profiles become commoditized. You have, uh, you know, for nine 99, you can access a hundred million profiles. That brings the price down for everybody. Higher tool becomes higher, easy, more of a marketing platform. Uh, hiring saw goes out of business. Uh, seek out is I think kind of finding its way around. They went through around layoffs recently. So from my perspective, the sourcing profession.

is in a real state of flux right now. So I'm gonna pass it to you to kind of give us the state of sourcing, your role at SourceCon, what the show has become, the future of the conference, and maybe the future of the profession.

Jim Stroud (18:42.082)

Sure, sure. I think you summed up sourcing in a very, very accurate way. We are in a state of flux. Yeah. Sourcing is in a state of flux. I think a lot of people are concerned. I hear it when I'm at the conference. I talk to people virtually and in person. And if they're in the recruiting

Joel Cheesman (18:50.6)

This is why I have an award-winning podcast, Jim, for six years running. Yeah. Because I'm old. That's why.

Jim Stroud (19:12.262)

industry, there is a lot of concern. People are looking at the AI technology out there and they're thinking, wow, AI is here, so my days are numbered. And I say, well, not necessarily. So I just think that when new technology is introduced, some jobs will be displaced, but then new ones will replace them. Just as Netflix took out Blockbuster back in the day,

for you young folks, there used to be a time when you got DVDs in the mail and it wasn't streamed. But now with Netflix, you have the streaming technology. And so that brought about a bunch of new jobs, content creation, digital marketing, data analysis, software development, cybersecurity stuff, just name a few. So there will be new jobs that I think sourcing will morph into or will also incorporate. And I'll make a prediction on three different jobs, if I may.

of the future, which you'll probably start to begin to see next year. One job that I predict that's going to appear in 2024 or shortly thereafter is what I'm calling the algorithmic recruiting analyst.

Joel Cheesman (20:01.908)


Jim Stroud (20:16.906)

And that's somebody who analyzes the performance and effectiveness of AI algorithms using HR tech tools. Someone who optimizes algorithms for better outcomes, maybe tweaking the dials a little bit for more diversity or provide more insight. Sort of like, it's sort of an old school comparison. Tweaking the Boolean strings to make sure that the AI is getting the right candidates or as many candidates as possible.

Another prediction I've seen in the very near future is the ethical AI compliance officer. All right. And that's somebody who makes sure that AI tools are in compliance with local, state, and federal regulations. You know, President Biden recently issued an executive order on AI to promote, as a quote, safe, secure, and trustworthy development of the use of artificial intelligence. And when I heard that...

Joel Cheesman (20:48.815)


Joel Cheesman (21:00.052)


Jim Stroud (21:10.598)

that just tells me that new regulations are on the horizon. And you already have a few out there, like New York City Local Law 144 and others, but there's gonna be a whole bunch. And when you're not in compliance of all these regulations, it's gonna cost you money. So I think it's gonna be a job where someone's whole job is to make sure that you protect the company from having to pay fines. And then third, which I know for sure I will likely see next year.

is something I'm calling the AI recruitment trainer. That's somebody who comes in and trains sourcing teams on how to use AI tools and platforms. There are so many tools out there. And this person is going to come in and say, hey, you know what? Let's connect ChatGPT to Zapier and look at all the things you can do. Look how much time it's going to save you. And this is by doing these things that I'm going to train you on, your team is going to be more efficient. You'll be able to do more with less, that kind of thing.

So somebody like Eric Jacob, if you're listening Eric shout out to you. Eric Jacob or Ronnie Bratcher or somebody like that, or any number of people from what are called the source kind OGs could do a really good job with this. So those are my three predictions there.

Joel Cheesman (22:18.789)


Joel Cheesman (22:25.134)

So let's get to SourceCon real quick. If memory serves me, and again I'm old, there is no SourceCon without you. Were you one of the original? Am I off base on that?

Jim Stroud (22:28.81)

Yeah, yeah.

Jim Stroud (22:37.124)

You flatter me, sir. You flatter me. Well, back in the day, back in the day, it was Leslie O'Connor, Rob McIntosh, Earl Mann and myself. We were the four horsemen, so to speak, behind it. I didn't put the money up, so I almost feel kind of sketchy saying that I'm a wonderful horseman, but I was.

Joel Cheesman (22:46.074)



Jim Stroud (22:58.998)

the emcee for SourceCon and promoted it for the first few years. So a lot of people still remember me from back then to now because I really got into video promotions, producing videos to promote SourceCon back then. And I've been back several times over the years, keynoting at the event. And as Luck or Providence, whatever you want to call it, has have it, I am now the editor of SourceCon.

Joel Cheesman (23:00.068)

Yeah, yeah.

Joel Cheesman (23:05.437)


Joel Cheesman (23:23.229)


Jim Stroud (23:23.466)

which means that I helped to plan the event. I helped to create the content on the event. And I also promote and manage the online community of really, really talented people who have a love for sourcing. I'm very, very blessed. Shout out to the SourceCon community. Shout out to the good folks over at ERE. One love.

Joel Cheesman (23:46.428)

You know, uh, real quickly, the, the conference universe fascinates me and I've been around for a while again, uh, back to me being old, but you know, ERE used to be the go-to conference for everybody. SourceCon was like the freak show, you know, the, the people. I mean, I say that, I say that it's, it was like,

Jim Stroud (24:04.331)


Jim Stroud (24:08.382)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's sort of like Comic-Con.

Joel Cheesman (24:10.524)

It was like the S it was like the SEOs back in marketing, right? Like all the SEOs got together and like, and they were the freaks, right? But they, it was like, they knew something other people didn't. And source con always felt like that to me. They, they had, they spoke each other's language. They saw things that other people didn't see. Um, and it was always fun. Pandemic hits. You know, there's a new, a new crop of conferences, the unleashes, the rec fasts, um, what's the state of the conference?

Jim Stroud (24:14.485)


Jim Stroud (24:20.894)

Exactly. I think what?

Jim Stroud (24:27.392)


Joel Cheesman (24:40.04)

What, how, how were the vendors changing? Like you talked about your predictions. The vendors used to be pretty straightforward, like pro search profiles and like, uh, or contract people to do searches. How are the vendors different and how is, how is the conference different? And where do you hope to take it with a whole new crop of competition out there to, to get people's mind share?

Jim Stroud (25:00.31)

Sure. Well, with the sponsors, we just announced the first ever AI product showcase. So what we're going to do is we're going to have several vendors, five minutes, to showcase what they do and give the audience five minutes to ask them questions. There are so many tools out there, and we're going to allow a select few to present to the community.

Shout out to Danielle at if someone's interested in that. But we're going to have them just sort of showcase because a lot of the tools out now, everything is powered by artificial intelligence in some matter. So there's that. In terms of the look and feel of SourceCon, originally back in the day, it would have been a fair comparison to say SourceCon was to recruiting conferences as DefCon.

Joel Cheesman (25:42.482)


Jim Stroud (25:56.258)

what's the security industry or Comic-Con. So if you can combine Comic-Con, that's the conference for people in comics and Marvel movies, things like that. If you combine Comic-Con with DefCon and add in recruiting and sourcing, you would have SourceCon. Over time, it felt like it was sort of straying away, sort of lost its sort of mojo in that sense, but I'm trying to bring sexy back, so to speak. So...

Joel Cheesman (26:06.14)

Uh huh.

Joel Cheesman (26:20.633)


Jim Stroud (26:27.103)

These sound effects. So bringing it back to that old school source con vibe where you have the, to your point, the weird people or the people who are just really passionate about sourcing, really passionate about AI and recruiting and sourcing and showing them the latest tools and tricks all in one place. It is the place to be for that.

Joel Cheesman (26:34.737)


Joel Cheesman (26:46.64)

Okay. Well, with AI, I know a lot of people have questions. They have a lot of ideas or how AI can work and making me a better sorcerer. So I'm kind of with you. I think there'll be some new and inventive ways that we, I can't even see that vendors and people will come up with, uh, to take sourcing to a whole different place. Uh, give us, give us the, where the win, uh, and any discounts, uh, that you might have for the, the Chad and cheese listeners.

Jim Stroud (27:06.216)


Jim Stroud (27:14.57)

Sure, you can get all the information at That's And you can get 10% off by using the discount code sourcecon10. And you can also get 100% off if you contribute four articles to the SourceCon blog. Those articles will be peer reviewed by a lot of the SourceCon OGs.

So if you want 100% off, write a very, very good article for very, very good articles and submit them. And once they're peer reviewed, you'll get free tickets.

Joel Cheesman (27:50.736)

All right.

Jim Stroud (27:54.52)


Joel Cheesman (27:55.292)

Well, thanks, Jim. Where can they learn more about SourceCon?

Jim Stroud (27:59.018)

Yeah, go to

Joel Cheesman (28:04.368)

Easy enough. Easy enough.

Joel Cheesman (28:10.616)

Now to the news in no particular order. Indeed, my God, we never talk about indeed on the show, Jim. Indeed is discontinuing pay per application, or what the kids are calling PPA pricing, set to end in less than two weeks. Wow, that was a quick decision. After replacing pay per click for most employers,

Jim Stroud (28:20.049)


Joel Cheesman (28:34.82)

Initially favored by smaller employers, PPA faced criticism for complexity and unexpected chargers despite changes. Indeed cited it as an unsuccessful experiment focusing now on pay for performance models, Jim, I know you don't have a lot to say about this particular. Uh, item, but do you have any, any thoughts on indeed what the community thinks about indeed? And maybe about this, this confusion with pricing.

Jim Stroud (29:05.158)

I think that indeed could learn something from McDonald's. McDonald's has been around for a while, but they have the same basic menu. Even though people still, it amazes me people walk into McDonald's and they sit there and look at the menu. Like it hadn't changed in 20 years. Basically unless they bring back the McRib or something. It's something about keeping your business process as simple, keeping it simple for the customers.

Joel Cheesman (29:22.057)

Uh huh.

Jim Stroud (29:32.426)

It's cool to introduce something new every now and then, but there's something to be said about consistency. You know, they'll make it difficult. The easier you make it for someone to give you money, the easier it is for you to get their money. So that's what I say about that.

Joel Cheesman (29:45.756)

Yeah. And pay-per-click 20 years on is kind of a universal thing. People understand you click on my ad and I pay you money for the traffic. Every time you try to throw in complexity, you're going to get a lot of money.

Joel Cheesman (30:05.784)

So we talked about this when they launched it. And the fact is Google can't make this work. Google back in the mid 2000s had like, you know, pay per purchase. So someone clicks on an ad and if they buy your pair of shoes, then you only pay us for people buying the shoes or you pay us a percentage of what people spent. You can imagine the level of fraud, deception that people tried to get.

Jim Stroud (30:06.134)


Jim Stroud (30:10.09)


Jim Stroud (30:29.186)


Joel Cheesman (30:35.536)

like less, like not pay Google or people that were using AdSense. Forget it. So if Google can't figure out a pay per acquisition model, uh, then it should tell you something that you can't either, uh, indeed is going through a real period of hubris right now. Uh, they're going through a period of, of fear, frankly, uh, with, with Google for jobs with LinkedIn growing.

with programmatic, uh, appcast and others breathing down their neck. Um, indeed is making some really dumb decisions. And I think this was one of them to think that they could just do this, uh, really reeks of hubris. I understand the idea of it because it's hard to have a conversation as an indeed salesperson and say, look, I know you're paying, uh, appcast 12 cents a click and you're paying us 84 cents a click, but we're, we're better.

Right? Like that's a hard conversation to have. Like, why should I pay you double for the click that I'm giving someone else when I'm still getting the results that I need? So they, they wanted to create confusion of like, well, no, it's not per click. It's per applicant or it's per interested, interested candidate or whatever, whatever model. So they want to sort of dilute the waters and confuse people. Well, it looks like they went too far. Uh, and our, our backtracking on, on what they they've had to do. Um,

Jim Stroud (31:46.565)


Jim Stroud (32:01.458)

It could be...

Joel Cheesman (32:01.608)

The other thing is there's a company, a private equity firm called value act that just gave a bunch of money to recruit holdings, which is indeed parent company. Well, you know that when private equity comes in the door, they take a magnet, you know, magnifying glass to everything and they say, okay, what's, what's frivolous, what isn't working, what is working, how do we cut costs? Um, clearly there was a strategy meeting where someone said, why are we doing this? We're, we're losing customers. They don't understand it. So maybe there was at least some.

Jim Stroud (32:06.373)


Jim Stroud (32:11.171)


Joel Cheesman (32:31.512)

Uh, some focus or refocus with, uh, with the private equity coming in, uh, that made them, uh, make this move. I don't think it's the end of bad moves for indeed. I think they're going to continue because the world isn't going to change. Google is still going to march on LinkedIn is still going to march on programmatic is still only going to get bigger. Appcast is buying agencies and so IPOs are going to come down the pike. It's only going to get tougher for indeed. So, uh, I don't, I'm not sure what they're going to do, but I think

Dumber moves are going to come in by them. Maybe new products, new brands, new extensions, maybe consulting, maybe more recruiting and staffing. Uh, but the, the paper click life only has so much to live at this point. And the PPA didn't work. And, uh, I think the PPC lifespan is limited at this point.

Jim Stroud (33:19.698)

I think when you're so big, to your point about the hubris, you get so big you figure you can do whatever you want. But I do think that the way things are, what indeed needs to be looking at in the corner of their eye, is companies merging and being acquired. I heard about there's some talk about Paramount Plus doing some kind of deal with Apple Plus.

Joel Cheesman (33:44.749)

With Apple? Mm-hmm.

Jim Stroud (33:46.11)

Yeah, because they're both hurting on the streaming wars and their library is really lacking compared to Amazon and Netflix. So if a lot of companies, because of these interesting times, start teaming up and merging and they start coming together like Voltron and robot or something, it might be big enough at some point to take on indeed. I think the real problem is no major competitor. Or not.

Joel Cheesman (33:51.889)


Joel Cheesman (34:05.108)


Jim Stroud (34:15.19)

big enough to really cause them to shift what they're doing. It needs more competition, is what I'm saying.

Joel Cheesman (34:20.117)

Yeah. Well, back to sourcing, right? Like at one point profiles became commodities, like they're out there, you know, like LinkedIn has built a walled garden around their stuff and they've done a good job of protecting that, but there's no protection for job postings. Companies don't give a shit if you scrape their cut, their ATS and grab their job and throw it out there. Now they may care, but they're not doing anything about it. So as jobs get to become commodities, it's like, it's a race to the bottom.

Jim Stroud (34:25.003)


Jim Stroud (34:41.792)

All right.

Joel Cheesman (34:46.256)

of pricing and to me the programmatic, you know, uh, wave that's, that's happened is, is a mirror image of what's going on with any commodity out there as a race to the bottom. So for me, um, indeed has, has nowhere to go except like milk this thing for as long as they can, unless they do come up with some miraculous, uh, you know, ninth fourth, fourth quarter comeback.

I think they're going to share a faith that Monster shared. I mean, how many times do we talk about Monster hubris? You know, 15 years ago, you know, 10 years ago.

Jim Stroud (35:20.704)

Yeah. I never would have thought Monster would be gone. I always thought Monster would reign supreme forever from back in the day, you know? But it happens.

Joel Cheesman (35:32.848)

I mean, like we're going to talk about job openings, uh, in our next story, job boards should be crushing it, crushing it like Zipper, crude or indeed like every job site should be crushing it. Unfortunately they're not. Um, and it's that race to the bottom, uh, for job advertising, but enough about indeed, we'll get back to them in a, in a second. Let's, let's talk really quickly about job openings. So in October, us job openings fell to 8.7 million.

Jim Stroud (35:39.912)

you would think.

Joel Cheesman (36:02.844)

the lowest since March of 2021, indicating a slower hiring pace amidst higher interest rates. Despite declines, job availability remains historically high. Hiring slowed from previous years, yet added 239,000 jobs monthly in 2023, reflecting a resilient job market amid rising borrowing costs and easing inflation. To put this in context, job openings reached a record of more than 12 million

in March of 2022. The last time job openings hovered around 9 million like it is now was in the spring of 2021. Jim, what do you make of the drop and how should recruiters be looking at the news?

Jim Stroud (36:48.766)

Every time I hear a news report these days about job market, jobs down, but it's not really that bad because you have this over here, my thinking is that my inner Senate comes out and I'm thinking, okay, it's a presidential election year, right? Election season, right? So there's going to be spin all over the place. I think that we are in a recession, whether it's an official recession per se.

Joel Cheesman (37:05.481)


Jim Stroud (37:17.898)

When I go to the grocery store, I think recession. I see gas prices happening, thinking recession. I could be wrong, but it just feels like we're in one. So any report that I see, I take off a grain of salt because I said, you know, people in power want things to look a certain way. Now, after the election is over, then we may see a bit more reality of how things are. But there's that. But...

That and also how I get a lot of requests from other recruiters and people in the business, hey, do you know who's hiring, that kind of thing. It took a minute for me to land the gig that I have now, so I know that although jobs may be plentiful, as they say in the media, I know it's not quite the story for everyone. That being said, I would like to throw out a couple tips for recruiters who are looking for work, if I may.

So this is something that recruiters and sourcers, pretty much anyone can do. Go over to Google News or any news site for that matter and do a search on series B in quotes and funding, right? Or series C in quotes and funding. When companies are raising money and then they're in their series B or series C round.

that means that they're in a position to expand their operations. Usually when you get the series B and C, they are going to do more hiring. They're going to buy more products so they can sell more stuff. So those are companies that are poised to expand. Those are companies you want to pursue because they got money and they're growing. So, um, if you do a search, I did a search just a while ago and I saw several, uh, companies there.

Now in Google, you can refine your search by recent or past week or past month, whatever. Do a search for recent week and you got fresh meat, so to speak, of companies that may not even have a job for a recruiter posted because it's so new, but now is the time to network and sort of get your way in that way. Also what you may want to do if you're currently working and you're concerned about how long you're going to continue working there.

Jim Stroud (39:35.334)

I would say diversify your skill set as much as possible. Maybe ask somebody how you can help with workforce planning or employer branding, that kind of thing. And then if you are in management, I would say strongly, this is the time to really hire, actually, believe it or not.

Joel Cheesman (39:45.552)


Jim Stroud (39:57.578)

Because when you have a recession or at least it feels like recession to a lot of people, a lot of people are going to be nervous. So a lot of the A players that normally wouldn't even look your way, they may be open to an email to a conversation because they're thinking, okay, I'm working now, but things are kind of iffy. Yeah, maybe I will entertain an offer or at least talk to someone about that. And then if they happen to be laid off, then you may be able to get them at a lower salary.

Joel Cheesman (40:01.501)


Joel Cheesman (40:20.132)

Yeah, yeah.

Jim Stroud (40:26.774)

that you can afford versus you probably wouldn't be able to afford them if the economy was doing great. And then, of course, when recession is over, a lot of your A talent, they might be recruited away to other places for higher salaries. But at that time, your company might be in a better position because of all the contributions of the A players that got you to that point. So that's my rant on that. Your soundbites.

Joel Cheesman (40:34.098)


Joel Cheesman (40:48.028)

Got it. So my perspective is what's happening is exactly what the Fed wants to happen. Look, we flooded the house with money during COVID, what, $6 trillion, whatever it is. So we had a big party and we're coming down from that. So inflation, we gotta get that under control. At least inflation has stopped growing.

Jim Stroud (40:58.06)


Jim Stroud (41:08.15)


Joel Cheesman (41:14.668)

Uh, the market needs to cool down. Jobs need to come down. Like more houses need to like everything needs to slow the hell down or we're going to overheat. We talked about, uh, this on the chat and cheese podcast does, uh, does data with Toby Dayton, what's happening is what the, what the feds want to have happen. Um, so from my perspective, 12 million jobs is ludicrous. I mean, that was, that was nuts. It was like three opens, three openings for every human being that can work. Like that is not sustainable.

I don't know how many were actual real jobs. I think there was a lot of fraud in the system that we may never know about. Yeah, things are getting under control. I think it's normalizing. This doesn't scare me at all. You can throw in the word Goldilocks. It's like not too hot, not too cold. It's kind of just right. I'm glad that the labor market is holding up. We're hearing Jamie Dimon and some other big banks talk about recession. I think you're right in that we've seen a rolling recession.

Jim Stroud (41:47.522)

There you go. Embrace your inner cynic.

Jim Stroud (41:57.567)


Jim Stroud (42:13.212)


Joel Cheesman (42:13.264)

I think if you're in tech a year ago, it was a recession. Uh, if you're an energy now, it's a risk. So like it's hit different, uh, industries at different times. It hasn't kind of hit all of us at the same time. Uh, but yeah, you're right. What's the old adage? Uh, if you're, if your neighbor's out of work, it's a recession. If you're out of work, it's a depression. Uh, so depending on where you are, uh, it could mean a totally different thing. Well, let's keep this thing going. Uh, when we get back from the, uh, the break, we'll talk more about. Indeed.

Jim Stroud (42:33.486)


Joel Cheesman (42:45.232)

Well, people probably know text kernel, uh, as the best resume parsing solution out there. Uh, they bought sovereign a long time, uh, chat and cheese sponsor a few years ago. And they're still the best parser, but they're branching out. They're into matching semantic search, sourcing APIs, you name it. And they're diving into AI. Like their hair is on fire, leveraging LLMs for recruitment, whether you're a staffing agency, corporate HR, staffing vendor, or management consultancy.

You gotta be using text kernel. Okay. Customers like Ronstadt, Manpower and Kelly are already using text kernel and they have been for a while. Uh, and you can be in really good company, by the way, uh, they acquired a company called Jabati a few months back to take things to a whole new level when it comes to conversational AI and enhancements and technology guys, you owe it to yourself. To check out text kernel. If you care at all.

about evolving your TA strategy. Learn more today by going to That's

Joel Cheesman (43:57.564)

All right, Jim, it's an indeed double rainbow on this week's episode. So indeed following the pandemic is discontinuing their monthly and I'm using air quotes, you days. That's why oh you days. These are mental health days for employees globally stating reduced vacation bookings. The move aligns with a trend of companies reevaluating pandemic introduced perks due to budget constraints.

Jim Stroud (43:59.139)



Jim Stroud (44:12.494)


Joel Cheesman (44:27.74)

Despite this, Indeed maintains unlimited paid time off and remote work options, also extending parental leave to 26 weeks. Jim, it's a double rainbow for Indeed, featuring our favorite company, or at least one of them. Again, what are your thoughts on Indeed trashing you days?

Jim Stroud (44:48.682)

I understand the business case for dropping that benefit, but my concern or my hope is that it doesn't spill over into other mental health benefits. And I said it because there was a survey that was published this week, actually, I think it was this week, by the American Psychological Association. And they reported that over 56% of the psychologists they surveyed had no openings for new patients.

56%. And among those who keep waitlists, the average wait times were three months or longer. And nearly 40% of those said their waitlists had grown in the past year. So there is clearly a need for mental health assistance. That mental health benefits are needed across the board. So I sort of shudder when I hear a company saying they're not going to offer as many mental health benefits.

So I just again, I understand their business case for dropping it But I hope it doesn't spill over to other built-in health businesses putting them benefits putting those in danger because they are needed

Joel Cheesman (45:57.956)

Yeah. So I'm going to give them an applause on the 26 week parental leave. Uh, most companies aren't doing, uh, something. So yeah, 26 weeks for parental leave. Uh, they're extending, extending that, uh, now everyone in Europe and Canada is like, that's still not long enough, but at least in America, we're, we're making some progress on that end. Um, I always have a problem. If.

Jim Stroud (46:08.782)

26 weeks?

Wow, that's commendable.

Joel Cheesman (46:25.636)

If you are a market leader in solutions for HR, you should be a model of what treating employees correctly should look like, because all of your customers are in this industry. And if we can't get employee care right, why should we expect our customers that are doing this to get it right? So from that perspective,

Jim Stroud (46:40.427)


Joel Cheesman (46:53.584)

I think Indeed is falling down a little bit on what they could have been this like beacon of this is how you treat employees. Here's how we do it and you can do it the same way. To be cutting something like this, I think just is a little bit short-sighted and leaving I think what is an obligation to be a model of what it is to treat employees well. They've done a pretty good PR job of saying like, well, we've...

put back the things that we lost during the pandemic. So we're taking away some of the stuff that we gave during the pandemic. That's a really nice slick PR move to kind of cover your asses. Companies that have unlimited time off, generally have no time off.

I've worked at companies where there's no two week period or you got to take it or you lose it. It's just kind of like, hey, you're an adult, take whatever time off you want. And what happens is nobody takes time off because they feel like, well, I'm letting the team down or I'm slacking. I'm certainly going to take more than the next person over. So everyone just ends up working like slaves and no one takes time off. What I've learned is you have to have a period and say,

You got to take the time off or you lose it. And then everybody takes their vacation time. So I, I don't, I don't trust companies are like, we have unlimited time off because you, you basically have no time off when you have that, uh, that is your thing. The other thing again, back to value act, their, their private equity firm. Again, there was a meeting and they said, how do we cut shit out? How do we get people more, uh, more productive? How do we get, how do we kick the people in the ass and get them back to work?

And this was, I'm sure one of those things that they took out and was easy. If I'm an Indeed employee, I'm looking for more cost cutting efforts coming down the pike from value acts. Uh, I don't want to say layoffs, but would I be surprised if some layoffs come, come down the pike? No, I would not. So for me, like, this is maybe the tip of the iceberg for Indeed's cost cutting. It starts with you days. And it's pretty soon. There are no happy days whatsoever. If you know what I'm saying, you know what I'm saying? Yeah.

Jim Stroud (49:04.226)

Did they have this link, does Indeed have RTO policy, return to office policy?

Joel Cheesman (49:04.41)

Okay, sorry.

Joel Cheesman (49:10.972)

They are pretty, well, they are pretty, I'm sure they do, I don't know it offhand, but they are pretty flexible with the time away from the office. Although they've spent a lot of money on real estate, particularly in Austin, to get people into an office. So I think they're on a hybrid model at the moment.

Jim Stroud (49:24.608)


Jim Stroud (49:30.678)

Would I hear a big company?

Jim Stroud (49:37.031)

I feel like when companies are, oh yeah, go ahead. Oh, oh yeah, I'll point, yeah. I was gonna say that I feel that when a large company like that announces return to office, in the back of my mind, the cynical side of my brain says, tell me you're laying off without saying you're laying off. Get people to quit so you don't have to pay unemployment insurance or severance packages.

Joel Cheesman (49:37.392)

You had a point there before I cut you off. Go ahead. Okay. Well, yeah.

Joel Cheesman (49:56.487)


Joel Cheesman (50:00.556)


Jim Stroud (50:02.794)

It's a win-win from a competition perspective. So.

Joel Cheesman (50:05.36)

Yep. And Chad and I talk all the time about boiling the frog. It just, it starts slowly and like before you know it, you're back to work five days a week. Your benefits are the way they used like everything is back to the way it was before the world changed.

Jim Stroud (50:14.571)


Jim Stroud (50:19.674)

Have you heard of this thing called the wall of worry? You heard a term I just came across yesterday. So there's a low demand for office space these days. And it's been called a one trillion wall of worry. People in the office space leasing thing, because that's how much think they're going to be losing by end of 2024. A trillion dollars.

Joel Cheesman (50:31.045)


Jim Stroud (50:46.026)

and they're concerned about it and all the banks that they're in debt to are concerned about it is interesting. So I think RTO is going to continue for a lot of reasons, not just to lay people off. But yeah.

Joel Cheesman (50:49.596)


Joel Cheesman (50:59.undefined)

Who do you think owns those commercial buildings, Jim? The rich people do. Who owns the companies? The rich people. The rich people want you back in the offices that they own. I mean, it just makes sense. They're just gonna make it as slow and steady as they can. I think cities like New York, Chicago, bigger cities, you're just gonna go back to work. I think that stuff is gonna be good. Where I worry about the Clevelands, the Detroits, the smaller, do those downtowns ever come back?

Jim Stroud (51:05.934)



Joel Cheesman (51:28.858)

Um, we'll see.

Jim Stroud (51:30.626)

Well, there's a movement now going on, I think it's in New York and parts of Chicago, they're trying to kick it off where they want to convert the office buildings into residential. Some of those office buildings could be turned into residential, but the problem with that is that some people don't want to go back to the big city anymore because there's too much drama for some folks, depending on what city.

Joel Cheesman (51:43.272)


Jim Stroud (51:54.803)

If you know, you know and sort of thinking like I want to say I hear the birds because they get a little crazy there In the city, so I don't know if it's gonna work

Joel Cheesman (51:59.952)

Yeah. Plus a lot of those buildings aren't zoned for plumbing or, you know, the things that we think of in apartments. Uh, so you have to change the laws and the zoning regulation. So it's, it's a big pain in the ass for sure. It's, it's not a flip the switch and, and have a high luxury apartments, you know, in downtown New York, it just doesn't quite work like that.

Jim Stroud (52:05.334)


Joel Cheesman (52:21.968)

All right, let's get from one job site to another, or at least a new one anyway. Remote has launched Remote Talent, a marketplace integrated with its HR platform. Employers access global talent for local, hybrid, and fully remote roles, handling onboarding and compliance seamlessly. Job seekers find remote roles with detailed filters. The platform soon integrating AI and global knowledge tools.

caters to remote work aiming for what it calls a better hiring experience. Remote also recently launched freelancer hub, a platform for freelancers to manage operational tasks. Upwork and Fiverr are losing sleep over remote talent, but Jim, what are your thoughts on remotes move into job board status?

Jim Stroud (53:12.814)

I think it's a good move for them. I scanned over their website just a little while ago. And I probably missed a couple of things here and there. But if I were them, I would do my best to position Remote as the number one champion of the digital nomad movement. If I wanted to be a digital nomad and just go from place to place working different exotic locations around the world, should be the number one place to go for that.

I should see information on how to get travel visas, guides on working abroad. I think they do have some guides on working abroad. But the number one thing I would do, probably before even doing all that, is either hire or create a travel influencer to produce videos about working all over the world. I saw their, I looked at their YouTube channel. That's free advice. I looked at their YouTube channel, and I expected to see.

Someone say, hey, this is me and I'm in Bali and I'm working here as a software developer and then I go to the beach and then I do this kind of stuff. That kind of video would go viral outside of the job secret market and that would really promote their brand. It probably worked for any of their competitors, but I'm thinking remote. So something like that, they should be all over that. I was surprised not to see that. Maybe I overlooked it, but they should be doing that.

Joel Cheesman (54:17.053)

Uh huh.

Joel Cheesman (54:29.416)



Joel Cheesman (54:40.244)

Jim likes it, Jim likes it. I do not like it. And here's why. So historically, companies that get a lot of money like Remote has does some dumb shit. They lose focus, they get into stuff that they shouldn't be getting into. They start diluting their talent and what they're thinking about and how they innovate the main product. I'm reminded of...

Jim Stroud (54:44.634)


Jim Stroud (54:54.231)


Joel Cheesman (55:07.02)

Simply hired a company, you, you know, as well as I do. And, and back in the day, indeed, and simply hired were sort of both companies coming up in vertical search, jobster was there, but we'll, we'll save them for a different day and. We're indeed was super focused on speed ease of use, basically being Google for jobs.

Jim Stroud (55:19.084)


Jim Stroud (55:22.395)

Ha ha

Joel Cheesman (55:31.536)

Simply hired was like, well, we have 50 million. We have five X what indeed has in funding. What do we, what else do we get into? Like let's throw banner ads up. Let's do a resume, a writing help. Let's do like all these things that were unfocused and not like court of the business, you could argue that it was a fringe function of it. But to me, like an HR platform for everything, uh, remote

Jim Stroud (55:31.692)


Joel Cheesman (55:58.196)

to like being a job marketplace where employers can find people is totally taking your eye off the ball. And you're competing with Deal and Rippling and Oyster and some big, you know, high dollar competition. You can't afford to be unfocused. I'm also reminded of Handshake, the college recruiting site out there. The last round of funding they got, they talked about taking on LinkedIn.

Uh, which is just stupid, but it's also unfocused and taking your mind off or your, your eye off the ball. It's pretty common. You get a bunch of money. Investors go, okay, how are we going to add a billion dollars to the, to the bottom line and you go, well, let's see, let's add jobs, let's take on LinkedIn. Let's, uh, be a streaming service. Like people just lose their minds when they get a lot of money. And from my perspective,

This is a dangerous road for remote to be on. I don't think they should be getting into the Upwork Fiverr business. They should stay laser focused on what they do, being the best at it. They already have the best name, arguably, for what they do. Now, if they had started out as a remote work thing, then that's one thing, but they didn't start out that way. I think they're at real risk of screwing it up. But what do I know? I've only been around, I've only been around for 20, 25 years.

Jim Stroud (56:54.571)


Jim Stroud (57:17.938)

Time will tell.

Joel Cheesman (57:20.072)

Let's take another quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about, well, one of my favorite topics.

Joel Cheesman (57:39.316)

Well, we talked about a job at X's programmatic advertising and text kernels AI. I want you to now meet Pando IQ, which brings two great tastes together, programmatic and AI. That's right. Amplify your recruitment reach and target more qualified candidates with PandoLogic's programmatic job advertising platform, Pando IQ. Pando IQ, a best in class programmatic job advertising platform.

with a candidate management dashboard and conversational AI. That's a chat bot to you and I, Jim, for a deeper level of engagement without the heavy lifting or hassles. And Panda was acquired by Veritone, a pioneer in AI who also recently acquired Broadbean, the leader in job distribution. So how many flavors can you actually put onto one solution and have it still taste great? That's Panda IQ. More than enough reasons.

Jim Stroud (58:13.646)


Joel Cheesman (58:36.456)

to give them a look. Everything that Pandologic has to offer is something that you should be looking into. You can learn more by just going to That's

Joel Cheesman (58:57.404)

All right, Jim, it's Chipotle time.

Jim Stroud (58:59.072)


Joel Cheesman (59:05.852)

All right, so this one's straight out of sitcom land. Rosemary Hain, 39 year old, received a minimal sentence for assaulting a Chipotle worker in Ohio. Judge Gilligan, is his name, criticized her behavior offering her an alternative to reduce her jail time, working 20 hours a week at a fast food place for two months. The victim, Emily Russell, left Chipotle

Jim Stroud (59:09.545)


Joel Cheesman (59:35.024)

Supported by public donations and a new job. Jim, does the punishment fit the crime on this one? What are your thoughts?

Jim Stroud (59:43.39)

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. I love this story. I think it sends a message and hopefully this message will change the entitled culture that we tend to live in these days. What happened to basic manners? You know, what happened to just, you know, saying please and thank you and having a little bit of patience. You know, everything doesn't have to be done in 30 seconds or less. You know, if you have someone that makes a mistake, show a little grace.

You know, I think if I traveled through time and let's say that the, if I came back from the nineties and saw that happening, I would be totally shocked. I would think that person is just totally nuts and should be, you know, put it, put aside somewhere to, to get some mental health assistance. But nowadays it seems so common to see these kinds of outbursts.

Joel Cheesman (01:00:22.484)


Jim Stroud (01:00:43.426)

And it is really unnerving. It makes me concerned about future generations when you don't have any interpersonal skills, that you can't have any empathy with somebody who's doing the best they can or just having a rough day. In the big scheme of things, someone gets your order wrong. Is it really worth all of that? Just send it back and get what you want. I mean, it's, yeah. I'm so glad it happened to that person.

Joel Cheesman (01:01:08.616)

Jim, you're bringing us down and we don't do that on Chad and Chi. So I'm going to bring us back up. I'm reminded of a Seinfeld episode where George and Jerry are pitching to NBC. The idea of a show where a guy commits a crime of some sort and the judge, uh, makes him someone's butler for a year. And it's like, the whole show is based on this guy becoming a butler instead of going to jail. So I thought.

Jim Stroud (01:01:12.364)

Hahaha! Okay.

Jim Stroud (01:01:17.72)


Joel Cheesman (01:01:37.18)

boy, art imitating life on this one. This person that chunks a bowl at a Chipotle employee is now forced to work fast food as punishment. Now, a little known fact about me, McDonald's was my first real job. This was back in the 80s, and they had the McDLT. Do you remember the McDLT? It was like the hot stays hot and the cold stays cold.

Jim Stroud (01:01:39.851)


Jim Stroud (01:01:54.802)

OK. I remember that.

Jim Stroud (01:02:01.25)

tastes cold.

Joel Cheesman (01:02:02.428)

The styrofoam boxes they came in clearly destroyed much of the world back in the 80s, but that's neither here nor there. So another side note, George Costanza, not as George Costanza, is in the commercial for the McDLT. So we're bringing this full circle with Seinfeld and my experience at McDLT and McDonald's. And frankly, all this talk about McDonald's and Chipotle is making me...

Jim Stroud (01:02:19.774)


Joel Cheesman (01:02:29.744)

Very hungry. So let's wrap this thing up, Jim, let people know where they can find out more about SourceCon and give them that discount code again.

Jim Stroud (01:02:32.843)


Jim Stroud (01:02:38.166)

Sure, you just go to That's Use the code sourcecon10 to get 10% off. Or you can submit four articles to me. My email is jim at And four articles that are peer reviewed on the site will get you a free ticket. So that's 100% off. Can't beat that.

Joel Cheesman (01:03:00.904)

Can't beat that. Another one in the can. Chad will be back next week, unless I get lucky and he falls in the channel or something. And happy birthday to his beautiful wife, Julie Sowash. Jim, give it to me. We out.

Jim Stroud (01:03:07.19)


Jim Stroud (01:03:13.675)


We out! Ho, ho!


bottom of page