Roopesh Nair is president and CEO at Symphony Talent, the recent acquirer of SmashFly, which listeners will remember from the podcast. Well, we thought it was a good time to bring Nair on the show and chat about a few things, like the history of Symphony, the 'why' behind the SmashFly deal, thoughts on the hottest recruitment tech and what the future holds.
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Intro:
Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to HR's Most Dangerous Podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where hurts complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark buckle up boys and girls its time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.
Joel:
Yeah. Welcome to the Chad and Cheese podcast on your co-host, Joel Cheesman.
Chad:
And I am Chad Sowash.
Joel:
And today we have the pleasure of being joined. By cosmetic royalty, RuPaul Nair aire to the fortune of hair removal. Rupaul, welcome to the show.
Chad:
No, no, no, no. His name's Roopesh number one. And the last name I believe is Nair. Is that how you say it? Roopesh?
Roopesh:
Almost there. Roopesh Nair is how you say it.
Joel:
Well I fucked that up. Roopesh the head man in charge over at Symphony Talent. Let me do this again. Roopesh welcome to the show. Good to have you join us today. Chad and I are milking a hangover from the Superbowl, so don't talk too loud if you, uh, if you can help.
Roopesh:
Thank you Joe and Chad, really happy to be on the show. It's one of my favorites. So thank you for having me.
Joel:
Way to suck up early on and I love it. That's always a plus. That's pretty smart.
Chad:
That's what a smart CEO does, right?
Joel:
That's right.
Chad:
So right out of the gate I mean, what brought you to this? What brought you to this industry?
Roopesh:
Oh, that's a great question. So four and a half years ago, I didn't know anything about talent acquisition or for that matter recruitment, marketing or anything we do here at Symphony and Smash. Like today I had an experience, I had all my experience before that I had about 15 years in consumer marketing and technology. And then I got a call from the board was now the board of Symphony Talent. And basically they talked to me about an opportunity to really transform an, which kind of is going through a similar price formation as consumer marketing and technology went through you know, about a decade ago. And I just got excited about it. I, I, the way I told my friends, I said, Hey, you know, today I help companies sell detergent and shoes and tomorrow I'm going to help companies sell jobs and life. So that's basically what got me excited and, and it's just been an awesome journey. As you guys can see.
Joel:
You choose wisely. You choose wisely going to Symphony Talent. I know we want to talk about the acquisition of SmashFly, but for those listeners out there that don't know what you guys do, give them, give them the pitch.
Roopesh:
Yeah, so simple words. Pretty much what I said before, we kind of find the, in the, in the business of redefining how employers connect with talent and they are bringing in all the, all the new innovative thinking on how, how the connection happens between, between people and then bringing in, bringing it into the world of a career marketing and talent acquisition. So that's what we have been doing for the last five years and, and before and, but it's SmashFly coming in. That's become even more interesting for us overall as a combined company.
Chad:
Before we get into the, the SmashFly Joel just wants to go straight for the stuff, right. I want to hear a little history about, you know, what pieces parts came together to create symphony because I mean there were all these different pieces and it was an amalgamation of, for a while it seemed to just like craziness. It was, yeah. Agency's technology background check. Tell us, tell us a little bit about that.
Roopesh:
Yup, yup, yup. And that's basically, you know, fortunately what got me my job, you know, because there was a history which led to me coming in. As you guys might know, Symphony Technology Group acquired a few companies specifically starting with First Advantage. And then Findly, which was which was early, early CRM in the, in early 2010. So I would, I would, I would say .
Chad:
Jason Kerr days.
Roopesh:
Yup. Yup. And then basically from there they recognized quickly that, you know, frustrated vantage was a transactional background check business. So they basically, they peel that out of the business and took all the other pieces, skill assessments, the ATS bought at that time and CRM and kind of merge it together and brought Hodes in at that point. And this was all before my time but obviously you guys, some of you guys know the history, the acquisition didn't really go as well as planned. And then, and especially, you know, kind of coming in thinking about cultural combination of agency and bringing in technology. And agency together was not as simple as it was initially perceived.
Roopesh:
And, and that's what led, frankly to me getting my job about five years ago because that's exactly what we did in previous organization. At Sapient, we brought technology and creative agency into one single play in the consumer world. And basically over the last I think five years, what you've done is exactly that. Chad and Joel, we basically kind of a broad Hodes as you guys you know, know that really well. It's, it's been around for, I would say about 40 years now as that employer brand agency kind of transforming itself over the years, but at the same time kind of having strong relationship with some plans and bringing some awesome creative and strategic capabilities into the table. But then, then we rewrote all the platforms involved between skill assessments, do basically the CRM to carry your website to programmatic media and bringing all those things together into one single platform.
Roopesh:
We call this experience cloud. And the idea was that, you know, we wanted to focus on kind of really transforming the experience for, for both the candidates, employees and, and the employers. And that's what we did. We kind of rewrote everything in, in modern technology. We brought in a lot of the ideas around how do we use creative and content in the context of the technology to drive personalization, drive that seamless candidate engagement. And, and that led to where we, we were early this year I'm gonna say like early last year when he had a strong set of set technology suite. And we also had a, had an awesome, awesome creative capability and a bunch of clients who were super
excited about what we were doing with them together. So that's the story to tell the SmashFly time
Chad:
When it comes to all of those technologies. Because I mean, First Advantage had an applicant tracking system, background check. I mean there was a ton of stuff there. Findly obviously was an entirely different segment of technologies, and then Hodes who did have some tech but they really weren't tech. I mean being able to merge them all together into one and then also all the technical debt that had to be paid. Did you just start over from ground zero and use the data because you're talking about being able to build new technologies. That's really hard to do off the back of some of the old tech that you guys were inheriting.
Roopesh:
Again, a very good question. So the first thing we did is basically invest in what we call this on data, which was kind of that one single data platform which connected all these solutions together. And that gave us the early wins so that we can kind of, you know, sell these pieces. Obviously background check, as I mentioned, was completely taken out of the equation. We didn't, we didn't bring that into this technology, right? So that was, that was First Advantage. And you guys, you guys had a podcast about how First Advantage had a great exit. So that was, that was a completely separate business. But everything else, we, we first connected the data into it started that work in 2015 and to your point, we looked at it and said the tech debt was too much to pay. So we kind of read out everything starting 2015, we basically took all the, all the knowledge all the lesson learned from all of these platforms, but rebuilt the, the front end and the backend in, in the modern mean stack as a, as we call it.
Roopesh:
And then, and then upgraded pretty much as of 20, late 2018, we had upgraded all the clients into that one single platform, which we call it as experience cloud. So I mean, that's why, you know, some of you are saying, Hey, you know, you know, we have not been that active in the market talking about symphony specifically because we basically were focused a lot more on ensuring that we have an awesome set of stable, awesome clients who are really happy with what we have done with the integrated platform. And that was the journey til 2019 sorry, 2018. And then we were ready to kind of look at the future with everything else we had.
Joel:
So that probably brings you into the SmashFly acquisition. As part of your 2019 initiatives, what was the catalyst of that? What was some of the pieces they brought to the table that you didn't have? And were there some complimentary technologies?
Roopesh:
Yeah, exactly. So that, that story of kind of thinking about SmashFly or frankly, initially it was, we were looking at growth from an organic perspective or an organic perspective. And we debated that a lot and we decided to look at both and to invest in invest in both. But as we looked at the market and we ended up finding Spanish Flay, the felt like smashed way, had so many complimentary capabilities, which we didn't have. And also from a client based perspective, as you bring the claim base, both the companies together created a, you know, organization which, which is very difficult to be matched in the, in the modern recruitment marketing platforms industry. Right. So specifically talking about areas which smashed lay was really strong in. If you think about the deck to the smash SmashFly had in, in the recruitment marketing space, just purely as we think about the CRM, the depths the SmashFly has and had is unmatchable you know, frankly by anyone in the industry right now.
Roopesh:
And on the other hand, Symphony Talent had focused a lot more on the experience of the candidate, the personalization, which comes with that engagement. A lot of the lot of the automation part of recruitment marketing when it came to kind of building these drip campaigns which can, which can automatically personalize itself and run through the different ecosystems and finding the personas and that angles, what Symphony Talent focus a lot mater like moron and obviously also on the, on the programmatic media and that engagement, right? So when you looked at the CRM depth, which smashed lay hat and the experiential capabilities with talent had and the programmatic capability, we had a, if you think about the overall recruitment marketing or the talent acquisition life cycle, you know, we, we basically had the best of breed in all areas and it just made sense. And we had the experience bringing technologies together before.
Roopesh:
So we looked at it and said, what does it take for us to bring smash flight and, and experience cloud together into one single solution. And we were very, very convinced that that the pieces, the way they were built and the Bay that we could bring them together, there was a, there was an easy path to that, that keeping all of our clients happy. So we decided to go down that path. And it's been, what, three months now? And, and it's been, it's been, it's been amazing because we couldn't have been, we couldn't have been more right on our assumptions on bringing SmashFly into Symphony Talent.
Chad:
So you were looking at 2015 rewriting everything so that you have a Unicode and you, you got it out to all clients in 2018 that takes a little while. I totally understand. It was all upgraded. Yeah. So now you have another piece and I mean this does, it sounds like it fits well within, again, the constructs of your ecosystem. But again, this is, this isn't an integration, how long is it going to take for customers to be integrated into the SmashFly piece that's already integrated into all the other technologies that you have?
Roopesh:
No, a good question. Again on the clarification on that 2015 to 18, right, there was a path around basically 2015 we started with a blank slate without anything in May, 2015 and basically the platform was first announced, if you guys remember in, in like mid 2016 was when we announced experience cloud and media cloud. And then there was basically a journey to get, get the clients on it because we don't want to kind of disrupt their journey, right? We want to ensure we upgrade as it makes sense. So that's basically, you know, a pretty 18 was a time when we had paid all, all our tech debt with all clients upgraded into that integrated platform. Now, now the, the journey is going to be a little different from here because the way we won, the way we built these platforms, right?
Roopesh:
So, especially the experience cloud the, it's basically going to be an incremental add on to SmashFly. So we are basically taking the SmashFly platform. And the reason I was mentioning that we couldn't have been more right about the acquisition was we've already kind of upgraded the candidate experience or the career website platform in SmashFly with what we had with experience cloud and behalf of our, we have three clients already kind of running on it as we speak who were SmashFly clients and then basically pretty much what that means is going forward. The SmashFly platform now has all the personalization engine and all the, you know, content marketing and content capabilities, which Symphony Talent's, experience cloud had pretty much right now because again, it was built in. That is because we had paid all the tech debt in a, in a, in a good way of previously. The next thing we are going to see is basically the programmatic media platform getting plugged into SmashFly platform. And that's in line for basically a late Q1 launch which basically then we'll upgrade the SmashFly platform to have all things programmatic from a job boards to banners to social to basically Google AdWords and all those pieces built into SmashFly as of end of Q1.
Joel:
We should create a drinking game for every time that you say experience cloud that Chad and I do a shot. I that that'd be a good idea as we can there. So you, you mentioned programmatic and you guys offer a ton of shit, but let's focus on that real quick. As you know, and listeners know programmatic was a hot button through 2019 you had acquisitions the 800 pound gorilla by most estimates with app cast being acquired, like talk about sort of your view of programmatic, where it's going, where it's been and how you guys fit into that.
Roopesh:
Yeah, that's again, a good question. So programmatic, a lot of our view of programmatic was generated directly from, from consumer marketing. And basically programmatic as this industry knows is very, very, very focused on job board advertising and kind of optimizing your spend across job boards. We obviously are, are very, you know, we do believe that's important. We basically optimize across all the job hoods and, and, and the spend across those. But we also add on basically all the other forms of paid media, whether it is basically banner ads or social or Google ad words. Our, our, our video pre-rolls and all those pieces and be optimized basically spends across all those pieces, which kind of helps us in one way to look at passive and active candidates and, and beautiful word on that most both from what we call as drivers of candidates, but also from an influences of candidates and ensuring that we create a good mix of that as the programmatic drives in.
Roopesh:
Right? Because one of the risks of programmatic is that you might just always be optimizing towards the minimum costs to apply our minimum costs to click, which may not always be the right thing for the organization, especially if they're looking at quality as a big driver. So that's one of the differentiators in programmatic for us especially brings out our experience from the consumer side that how do we really focus on not just the click or the apply, which is what most of the programmatic in the in the industry optimizes to, to basically ensuring that we focused on the quality of applies and the actual actual basically, you know, detail which goes into the application as we go through the process. And the fact that we have a CRM and, and that integrates up automatically into the programmatic piece helps kind of do that because we are also applying the quality lens as we get the applications and then optimizing across all the active and passive sources of media.
Joel:
Yeah. Now, so we talked about programmatic and you're dropping things like banner ads and job boards and things like that. So it may be Chad and I are too far ahead of the game or maybe we're, we have our head in the clouds, like from, from your perspective, and you guys offer a ton of options in terms of marketing your company. Like what are the most impactful ways that companies can do that? I mean, is it still banner ads? Is it job boards? And is it not, you know, AI and automation and things that we talk about on the show? Like where is the real customer finding success?
Roopesh:
Yeah, again, a great question because the answer is depending on the job you're talking about and the location and basically the industry, it's a mixture of that. And that's exactly what our programmatic platform does. It kind of takes that guests out of the equation, right? Let's make the decision of exactly the question you asked on the fly based on where the real results are coming from for that particular job, for that particular category, for that particular industry. Right? So as the job comes in, you're kind of finding whether the automation and talent community and those pieces are giving us the best results, then spend more on that. Versus maybe for an engineering job, the job board may not be the best option because there are not enough engineers looking on job boards to basically apply. You might have to basically spin off those banners and social and Google keyboard optimization to be able to do that. And that's exactly what the platform does. Just take the guests out of the equation and you just need to put your spend in there and you just need to figure it out. That just need to tell the system that the related priorities and then, and then the guesswork is taken out because you're making decisions based on the real business.
Chad:
So you're, you're actually talking about quality with regard to where the jobs land, but not who's applying. Is that correct? Or are you actually doing some type of matching on the way in to assure that you are getting qualified jobseekers? Because, I mean obviously you can go to an engineering job site which everybody has access to and you can still get individuals who are not qualified. How is it, is it just more of a ratio of, well that's where the engineers are going to go so we want to target where the job lands. Are you doing more than that and trying to actually match.
Roopesh:
More than that because basically the same AI we use for matching on our CRM and our career website. So if you go to the career website for example, you know, a person can see what jobs are best fit for them based on their profile they have provided to the company. The same AI is used to match real time as the applicants come in, we use the applicant data to then basically hash to say, Hey, based on historical performance of who has been matched to this company and who has got hired, we are able to make a quick decision based on AI to say, all right, this seems like that particular applicant to keep it very, very simple into machine learning. We can get into depth of that, but very, very simple sense based on historical performance. We are making a decision on as the applies come in, are they quality applies or not, and then using that to determine where to spend the money on media along with how the applications are pacing, how the organic clicks are pacing and so on and so forth.
Chad:
Okay. So let's back out of this real quick and say in 2019 with the acquisition of made a big splash. I mean that was, that was a huge splash close to the end of the year. But Symphony Talent really wasn't a big brand that anybody really heard about. There's a lot of tech going on, a lot of things going on behind the curtain is this, is 2020 going to be the year? The coming out year where the curtains are drawn, everybody can see inside and we can start hearing more about these big tech advancements and programmatic and what you're doing with SmashFly. And is SmashFly going to just mold into Symphony or is the name going to stick around
Roopesh:
Both good questions. So basically, and the answer is yes. On the 2020 being the year of both SmashFly and Symphony Talent kind of been coming in the limelight and what Symphony Talent is and what SmashFly is far Symphony Talent. Kind of all that getting clarified so that you know, everyone's clear in the market as to you know, what, how to buy from us, right. To your point and ensuring that these, you know, VR unveiling all these pieces, especially in the context of how technology which was already at Symphony Talent and then technology which, which existed in SmashFly is going to seamlessly integrate to drive that whole division of you know, system. You know, humans should not be kind of going into the systems to kind of make guesses, but humans should actually be leveraging system to really have real human conversations. So that's basically what we are, we are hoping to do in 2020 kind of bringing, bringing all the pieces together, focusing on automation of all the way from, or if you're calling us awareness to offer, integrating with the ATS is developed, which we already do really well.
Roopesh:
So that you know, the human beings in this, in this equation the recruiters and the candidates spend most time talking to each other rather than searching for things which already the systems can provide, right? So that's basically what we are doing and you'll see us a lot more in the market. If you were at TAtech last week week the, we made a big splash of what Symphony Talent and SmashFly and do it together and be able to continue to do that. We will obviously use our Transform Conference to bring that for the life. And we'll basically be leveraging all the opportunities in 2020 and even forward to do that. Now to your second question, Symphony Talent and SmashFly are both going to exist as brands. Symphony Talent has kind of, you know, excelled in being known as that brand, although it's not known as in the technology as a technology brand.
Roopesh:
The, the, all the pieces were brought together. Symphony Talent is being perceived as a brand which can kind of been brought in to kind of really help you transform your overall brand engagement. But the talent right from the right from awareness to advocacy as we call it. So we are going to continue leveraging Symphony Talent for ensuring that we, we get into those conversations where it makes sense. And then SmashFly is going to be our one single product suite, which basically will slowly bring in all the pieces, including the programmatic pieces, including the personalization pieces, the skill assessment pieces and everything else. You heard from me about what Symphony Talent had and you'll see the SmashFly product evolving really, really quickly the next two quarters where we're basically, you know, the competition won't be able to get to because of all the pieces with Symphony Talent also had.
Joel:
Let's take it to employer branding for a second. And historically, branding started at a company's career site, right? That's where the videos were. That's where the sort of the, the identity was created. And I think more and more in some of the startups that we've talked to and companies you know, a lot of the apply stuff happens from the job search, right? It doesn't, they don't have to go to the company site anymore to apply because of one click solution. So I'm curious do you still agree that the, the career site is a major component to employer branding or is employment branding moving on to social media, Glassdoor, YouTube, external sources as opposed to the home site? What are your opinions on that?
Roopesh:
Yeah. Again, the employer branding is going through the same evolution which, consumer branding did, right. In many ways that's how people basically, if you, I know some of my early, early conversations about employer branding in talent acquisition space I talked a lot about omni-channel and prior branding. This was early 2015 as they came in because I was kind of ready buyers done what I saw on the consumer side. It was all about kind of, you know, yeah. Career site is a hub instill in many ways because you still come to the career website to kind of get to know a little bit more about certain things you click on as ZipRecruiter or whatever. You come into the job page and that's still in the career website. But the idea is that gone are the days where you create those basically ton of pages on the website and you hope that people would come to that page because we have data that between homepage job search and job description page and career website, most of the traffic of the web after career website is between those pages and all of the pages that are almost never visited.
Roopesh:
Right. And so if you focus on those and if you focus to your point on social, on, on Glassdoor, on indeed on, on banners and every single touch point on the emails you send out on that text, you send out on that, on that WhatsApp you send out, right. Everything is part of your brand equation now and, and basically a relationship management solution. This can help you kind of really manage that brand across all these touch points is what you need as a, as a recruiter, marketing professional and not a something which can manage the career website separately versus social separately versus advocacy separately. It all needs to be one single solution. That's exactly why we are excited about what we have here.
Joel:
Sure. It makes you that much more valuable with all these different channels to brand companies.
Roopesh:
Yup. Yup. And how all those works closely together with real data. I'm making decision on where do you need to focus, right. Because some, depending on the roles, depending on on the type of job you're talking about, different channels might be important as compared to others.
Chad:
Right, but the black hole is, the biggest issue I would say that most companies have from an experience standpoint, hiring companies have flashy websites and videos and blog post writers and all this, all this wonderful, fun stuff, great content, but the experience still sucks for candidates and what is, what is, what is symphony doing to really get rid of that black hole experience? Because that doesn't just impact the quote unquote employer brand. If I'm buying something from that company, I might stop. That. Could perspectively impact the consumer brand as well? What is Symphony Talent doing to get rid of the black hole? How is that going to happen?
Roopesh:
Yup. No, again, wonderful question because ATS, as you get to the ATS point and when we are making decisions as an employer as to do we spend time with the candidate or not, that's where you know, the processes, the human intervention comes in and basically you know, candidates never hear back and yeah, you can have a flashy website as you said, and you'd get into the application process. Sometimes it becomes complex. So our solution to that is a combination of things. One is to ensure that we are having very, very deep integration with ATS where we can still provide that seamless like one check, one click type checkout experience as we call it, the application experience. So, so that it can be seamless if you're going for as a candidate you want to apply and we are working with a lot of it is also working with companies to really figure it out.
Roopesh:
And that's where our transformation capabilities working with companies to figure out is that what you really need in your apply process or can you, can you cut these things off and move this later? And things like that. And I think we making real progress with companies and kind of thinking about what really needs to go into the application and how can we seamlessly integrate that in. So that's one part of it. The second part is as these decisions are getting made in the company and you know, the, the people are not being talked to because now they are in the black holes. We are kind of bringing in our engagement engine as part of the CRM to like ensure that, you know, we, we bubble up people who are, so we kind of quickly use our matching, regarded them to figure out who are the people that we should be talking to right away and push the recruiters, push the recruiters who talk to them quickly and, and give that visibility.
Roopesh:
The execs also, that's the aspect I was talking about around automation and kind of ensuring that people are not, you know, just searching, searching in systems and trying to figure out the right people. But, but people who are really best fits getting bubbled up pretty quickly so that those conversations are enabled quickly. And then people who are not that great fit based on the matching, kind of ensuring that we are talking to them also, right? Depending on, Hey, are they, are they repeat applicants? In that case there's a different conversation happening. If there is less data available about them, let's, let's have conversations about skills and assessments and stuff like that and talk about what else they can grow in and stuff like that. So that it's not, it's not that it's, it's a Hey in a crude or picks up the phone and calls this person conversation, but it's about all those conversations which can happen with a candidate all through the life cycle of the application and eventually as they get hired. Right. So again, I think there's a lot of work which needs to be done as a process and also technology in that area. But what I think they're making a lot of progress there.
Joel:
Alright Roopesh. I'm gonna let you out on this. You mentioned Tiktok on the symphony website and Chad couldn't be happier about that. You talk about Snap and others, so I'm curious, sort of on social media. What do you, what are your thoughts on the real progressive stuff like the tech talks and Snapchats are companies of yours actually using those mediums to effectiveness? And if not, what will they be doing? What social media platforms do you see fading for your customers and which ones are sort of at the top of the bell curve right now?
Roopesh:
Yeah, so I think the social media platforms are going through an evolution, right? Facebook used to be the coolest thing five to six years ago, and now it's my dad and my granddad basically spend their time on Facebook right now to be honest. So I'm actually on frantic people on Facebook because basically all my family's out there and it's more of a, there's more of a different conversation there, right. As compared to the Instagrams. And so I think it'll continue to happen and you'll see that every year basically. You know, new platforms will come in, you know, pick doc is basically the medium for, for you know, the, the youngest of the generations, I guess these days. But that's it to your specific question on jobs. I would say how it be used in job and advertising and getting people connected to companies.
Roopesh:
It again depends on the persona you're targeting. And we have used Snapchat effectively in, in some personas specifically around you know, university targeting and stuff like that. We have used Snapchat very effectively in the past. If you stick talk effectively in, in case of very specific like what do you call a millennial type campaigns where we had to kind of create there was a diversity campaign we ran, which we use tic talk very effectively with kind of bringing in advocates who basically could basically share, share their videos and kind of bring that in. So again, my point is each platform has its own, its own, you know, area and Facebook. I think it's still an effective media. Basically advertising, especially as now its reach has increased beyond the early adopters. I would say in the early two thousands, mid 2000 period to now basically pretty much everyone is on Facebook.
Roopesh:
So I think it's still an effective social media platform. So my simple answer to that is each of those platform has its own areas and you will see that evolving more because more and more platforms coming in that'll be these niches where it's a single platform might make sense. And that's where a platform likes like what we have at symphony will be effective because you're not trying to guess what is working. You're trying to kind of leave it to the platforms to make a decision. And then you are focused on the content and the personalization you want to produce really.
Chad:
Well. Excellent or pass. We appreciate you taking time out of your busy day to speak to a couple of knuckleheads. If people want to find out more about you, uh, or Symphony Talent SmashFly, where
would you send them? Symphony Talent?
Roopesh:
Specifically dub dub dub dot SymphonyTalent.com. I think that's the best place and be at integrating SmashFly into that content. So that's probably the one single place of truth as we, as we progress and more about me just Google Roopesh Nair as you called it and I think you'll get to the right place.
Chad:
Excellent. Appreciate it. We out.
Joel:
We out and we wear short shorts.
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