Bro, Do You Even Transform?

What do you get when you mash-up 4 podcasts into one? Lots of voices and even more opinion.

> Debbie Tuel from The Joy Podcast

> Julie Sowash and Torin Ellis from Crazy and The King podcast

> and Tim Sackett from the HR Famous podcast join the boys to talk about:

- Why are recruiters so damn hard to find?

- Does recruiter experience matter?

- Why is Europe a decade behind on the US in DEI?

- When will women come back to the workforce, specifically recruiting?

- Are companies doing enough in DEI?

- It's People, Process, Technology dummy!

- Working harder is not a sustainable business strategy

This show coming to you pre-recorded from Transform Detroit LIVE brought to you by Symphony Talent.



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Joel (0s):

Oh, yeah, what's up everybody. This is

Chad (5s):

OMGod it's Cheesman.

Joel (7s):

I thought you were stopping me. Shit. I was on a roll. I was on a roll. You felt like it was like the 1970s rock station vibe.

Chad (20s):

Okay. So who is at the table today? We have a crossover podcast. Good.

Joel (27s):

This is exciting. This is a bomb. This is going to be a bomb on the podcast universe.

Chad (33s):

A good bomb.

Joel (34s):

Like a cherry bomb.

Chad (36s):

Like that. That's better. That's it? That's better. Okay. Okay.

Joel (38s):

Should we go around the table and everyone introduce ourselves because we're going to show up on a lot of different podcasts? People don't know you, me, our audience doesn't know some of these folks, so I'll go first. My name is Joel Cheesman of the Chad and Cheese podcast.

Chad (51s):

Chad of the Chad and Cheese podcast.

Debbie (54s):

You've got Debbie Tuel here of the Joy Pipeline Podcast.

Tim (58s):

Tim Sackett of the HR Famous Podcast

Julie (1m 1s):

Julie Sowash of the Crazy and the King podcast,

Torin (1m 4s):

Bringing up the rear, breaking records, Torin Ellis, Crazy and the King. I am the king.

Chad (1m 11s):

We're all here in Detroit for a reason. There's this whole Joy road trip thing that's going on. They got like this ice cream truck thing.

Debbie (1m 19s):

We call it a road show, we are on a road show. The road show is road tripping. I mean, we are a taken the truck on the road. We started in Dallas. We are here in Detroit. We are going to New York City. I have just learned that we may even get to meet the mayor of Baltimore on this trip.

Chad (1m 37s):


Torin (1m 37s):

Come on now.

Debbie (1m 38s):

All right. I mean, this is, this is going to be big. And then we're going to take it overseas to London. How we get the truck there? Good question. I'm thinking not the same truck, right?

Tim (1m 47s):

I think it floats,

Debbie (1m 49s):

That's a great idea.

Chad (1m 50s):

You need the mic Tim. Tim's a rookie.

Joel (1m 52s):

The reason we're in Detroit is Tim Sackett with the proximity to him.

Tim (1m 56s):

I was saying like, instead of like the Joy truck, ice cream truck, you know, you could just have like one of those London taxis, like the cool ones.

Joel (2m 2s):

Sure Double Decker bus.

Tim (2m 3s):

By the way, the first time I ever went to London, we got talking to taking that taxi from Heathrow into London. That's $180 proposition, like, okay, great.

Debbie (2m 11s):

And there is a train that takes you the exact same distance, very fast and much cheaper, lesson learned.

Joel (2m 17s):

But when you're stars like Chad and Cheese you get the limo service from the airport, just saying.

Tim (2m 22s):

Didn't they get filmed the last time that they were over in London, like somebody was with a camera with them in the vehicle and all of that.

Joel (2m 29s):

You remember?

Debbie (2m 30s):

The guys over at Talent Nexus.

Chad (2m 32s):

Talent Nexus. Well let's okay. So let's break it down first. We're going to talk about Europe. We're going to get there, maybe a little Asia pack and whatnot, because I mean, you guys are going all across, you're road trippin'.

Debbie (2m 43s):

We are road trippin' on the road show

Chad (2m 45s):

Road trippin' on the road show. Okay. Here in the US, we actually, we had a great discussion yesterday with Tim and Tim was talking about how hard it is to find recruiters. Why do you think that is?

Tim (2m 59s):

No in fact. We know like Danielle Monahan, she was at Amazon and she's at Uber now, or NTA. She had made a comment to you that it never heard like 25 years of leading TA teams as she had had it harder finding recruiters. And then there was another stat out on Twitter this week. There's actually more recruiter openings right now than software engineering openings. I, you know, I think the pandemic, obviously teams got lean. And then all of a sudden, now I have to hire, again, real quick. Software engineers, they didn't really get let go. Like they kept working and they just worked at home, you know? So we have this bubble of hiring, but you know, a lot of people are like, Hey, I don't want to go back in the office. You can recruit from anywhere. Yeah. But the recruiter experience for most of these people are terrible.

Chad (3m 39s):

Debbie, let's talk about recruiter experience because at Symphony, you guys have to focus.

Debbie (3m 45s):

Yeah. They are our end users, right? The recruiters are the end users of our software. And I think oftentimes we do forget the end users. We have a focus as the industry on the candidate. And we forget that the person that's delivering that candidate experience is the recruiter oftentimes in conjunction with the hiring managers and others. But we need to build software that is easy for them to use. And then we need to connect the software together with the other tools that they're using so that it's a, streamless, you know, it's an easy work stream for them. And you guys have seen it and talent acquisition technology we haven't done a great job of that. We build tools in silos. We don't make it easy. Everybody thinks their tool is the best.

Debbie (4m 26s):

And so they're like the recruiters should be using my tool. And so they're going to log, yeah, they're going to log in to my dashboard. And I was like, ah, no, what is their system of record that they should be in every day that they're measured inside of, for their performance. And then how do we get the rest of the technology that's gonna make their lives easier, all embedded into that one piece of tech?

Joel (4m 49s):

Why is there a shortage of recruiters? Are they having a heart to heart with themselves and saying, I don't want to be a recruiter anymore. What's going on?

Tim (4m 58s):

I think there's a number of factors. One we just missed, she just created a brand new marketing term that we'll be using for like the next two years. She was going to say seamless. She said streamless. And I'm like, not for now. And every like HR tech company will be like, we're streamless. Oh my gosh. It's amazing. What does that mean? No one knows no one cares.

Chad (5m 15s):

It's streamless!

Tim (5m 16s):

Exactly. Someone's going to use that. I'll tell you our HR tech will be there in a few months and it's only to be like, we're, streamless. Like, I can't believe you stole Debbie's tech term, 2 million women, not in the workplace right now, still from the pandemic. Think of the recruiter, like demographic it's much heavily more women. So there's a part there, right? Where a lot of them have to go home, they gotta do childcare, they gotta do all these other things and they can't just recruit.

Chad (5m 38s):

Is the experience, I mean, does that prospectively push them out too? Because it sucks. Let's say for instance, from a process standpoint, having 27 tabs open, do you think that has any impact on whether your job sucks or it's joyful?

Tim (5m 52s):

Yeah. No. I think, I mean, I think that whatever tech you have, and I think what a lot of people found was like, Hey, you're a recruiter, you got shoved home and now you have to continue to recruit and they didn't give you anything that worked really well. And it became a major pain for you to actually produce and do as well as you were in the office for whatever environment they had. So I think that's one Joel, back to your question, you know, as women, you know, obviously not in the workforce as much, and we're hoping that returns. You know, the other piece of it is I think there's some leveling up going on, right? I think recruiters go, do I really want to put up with this crappy job? Hiring managers that don't respect me or Hey, by the way, I can go make the same money doing something else.

Torin (6m 32s):

You know, with you starting with technology as the primary consideration. And then the leveling up is the secondary. You know, it just reminds me of how many people think that there's some sort of fairy dust to do diversity and inclusion. And the technology is going to make them necessarily a better recruiter. And this is not to suggest that technology is not important because it's very important, but it's not a fairy dust solution that we're looking for.

Debbie (6m 54s):

No, you always go back to like people, process, technology, which comes third? Technology, right? Let's focus on the people, let's get the process in place. And then let's find the technology that matches that process. And oftentimes we find people trying to take the shortcut and go straight to technology. They miss the other two and they fail big time. And I think it goes back to what your question was, is we to have a problem of women leaving the workforce. We also have a problem of burnout and their burnout because of exactly what Tim mentioned. We've got less recruiters, they've got higher rec loads that they're working on. And then it goes to the usability, right? They they're burnt out of all of this tech. They're supposed to be using the, what they're measured on changes monthly based on what they just bought.

Joel (7m 36s):

Well, it sounds to me like they don't need new tech. They need more support as a mother, raising kids and getting to school and worrying about those issues as Julie rolls her eyes.

Debbie (7m 47s):

Rolls her eyes.

Joel (7m 47s):

Or shakes her head. Maybe she should chime in on this issue. Should companies be giving more support to women in order to fill those recruiting spots?

Julie (7m 54s):

Yes, we should be re-looking at our benefits, our flexibility, our with them, why should a woman come and work for me? And I can tell you, we're hiring at Disability Solutions right now. And I'm working with our recruiters and they are uploading. They're using 10 different tools. It's completely inefficient and it's causing delays for me, but it's causing my really talented recruiters to be exhausted. And they can't possibly help me find great diverse candidates if they're exhausted and they don't have that time because they just don't. And then on top of it, we can't get the data out that we need.

Torin (8m 29s):

Did she just say diverse candidates again?

Debbie (8m 30s):

I did, I did. Underrepresented candidates.

Torin (8m 34s):

Hey, I will tell you that there's, there's a piece of this that I think I work with TA leaders constantly. And I'll come in, I'll say, Hey, give me, I want to see three, four or five pieces of data. And they look at me with like deer in headlights. Like, I don't know if we have that. Let me see. I think our, I think we can pull that ever ATS or whatever. And, but here's what happens with not having that data as your TA leader, because all of a sudden hiring turned on for every industry, every market within the US, we have obviously it's different around the world. And the CEO comes in and says, Hey, by the way, we were going to hire a hundred in an August. Now we have to hire 500 and they go, okay, we'll just work harder. Work harder is not a sustainable strategy.

Chad (9m 11s):


Tim (9m 11s):

You have to have the process, the technology to people, all of those things in place. But if you don't have data, you can't go and say, Hey, by the way, Mrs. CEO, we're never going to make that happen. You can't create a here's here's our capacity right now. And you're asking for this capacity is not going to happen. And so they don't do that. So you just go and you beat on your recruiters. You like, you whip them a little bit harder, right? And by the way, short term, it works, you can whip a recruiter and they'll produce more short term, and then they totally burn out, fall off the cliff, and quit.