In this episode, Professor Zeke Hernandez from the Wharton School delves into the key themes of his book, The Truth About Immigration - Why Successful Societies Welcome Newcomers. He unpacks the complex realities of immigration in the U.S., covering both legal and illegal immigration, while highlighting the significant economic contributions immigrants make. Professor Zeke also explores the urgent need for reforms in America's immigration policies, particularly in relation to high-skilled immigrants, and the ways in which the outdated system hampers the nation’s growth.
Drawing from historical and contemporary examples, he discusses how immigration impacts the labor market, economy, and culture, and the role immigrants play in job creation. Additionally, he reflects on the challenges of cultural assimilation and shares insights on how to navigate difficult conversations about immigration, aiming to reshape perceptions of newcomers in a positive light.
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION
Joel (00:30.624)
Yeah, it's your favorite to average white guys also known as the chat and cheese podcast. I'm your co host Joel Cheeseman joined as always Chad so washes in the house as we welcome Zeke Hernandez, tenured professor at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania Zeke welcome to HR is most dangerous podcast.
Zeke (00:53.89)
Thanks for having me on.
Joel (00:55.828)
No problem. Thanks for coming. Thanks for coming. So before we get into the nitty gritty of some of your research and commentary, give us a little taste of, who Zeke is as a person.
Zeke (01:07.17)
Yeah, let's see. I was born in the little country of Uruguay, which means automatically I'm a huge soccer fan. I love to both play and watch. I live in Philly, which means I suffer all Philly sport pain, including recent losses and old losses. Married, five kids. And yeah, I just, I love to travel, love to meet people from all over the world. And I'm a professor, as you mentioned.
Joel (01:28.117)
Hello.
Joel (01:34.998)
Did you say five kids? Holy cow.
Chad (01:35.611)
Zeke, yeah, yeah, and just so you know, we call it football around these parts, Zeke. This soccer stuff, it's a little bit much.
Zeke (01:43.935)
Hahaha
Well, yeah. There's one that you use your foot with, you know, like actually. But I like, I like football. I like, you know, I like the throwing kind too.
Chad (01:50.121)
Well, Joe's so.
Yeah, exactly. I like to call.
yes. Now we like to call that American football. American football. Yes. So so so Joel gets a message from me. I don't know about a week ago. And I was like, you know, there's we're hearing a lot about immigration, not just in on the news cycle, but but also in what we do is the workforce. Right. And I just sat down, started was in a coffee shop, started reading your new book, The Truth About Immigration.
Joel (02:02.55)
Throw a ball.
Chad (02:29.995)
And I thought I'd reach out. And then I saw all this content that you're putting out that literally starts breaking things down around immigration and stats, historical context, those types of things. And I thought, hell, we need somebody smart on the podcast to be able to break some of this down for idiots like Joel and I. So right out of the gate, me why.
you thought it was so important, especially in this time, in this cycle to be able to publish a book.
Zeke (03:02.902)
I mean, like you said, just pay attention to the headlines, right? It's crazy. We're hearing so many things. And look, I've spent 20 years researching how immigrants affect our economy and our society. And I've also talked to audiences from all walks of life. I mean, I'm not talking just academics. I'm talking everything from rotary clubs to church groups to lawmakers to business leaders, right? So it's not just one group. And here's what's really obvious. And you just have to read the headlines to see this. There's basically two stories that were told about immigrants.
Chad (03:14.665)
Mm-hmm.
Zeke (03:33.098)
One of them is that they're villains, that they're here to take your job and rape your daughter and undermine your culture. But then the alternative is what I call the victim story, that immigrants are these poor, needy people that need our pity and it's going to cost us a lot to welcome them. And those are the two alternatives. And both parties now kind of fall prey to those two things. And yet when you look at the data, it's neither fear nor pity. Immigrants are actually like net positive.
Chad (03:52.681)
Yeah.
Zeke (03:59.938)
contributors to everything you want for your your neighborhood, your country to be really prosperous. And nobody's telling that even though that's what the data actually does. And so I felt, hey, nobody's telling that story. I got to put it out there, not because of it's a political opinion, because it's like it's empirical fact.
Chad (04:18.769)
It is interesting that you say that too.
Joel (04:18.954)
Professor, how much of your commentary is illegal versus legal? Because I feel like the political landscape has just put everyone in the same bucket. Talk about the difference and what you argue for. it for both elements or are we demonizing illegal and legal immigration together? Talk about that sort of political reality.
Zeke (04:42.454)
Yeah, look, I think the thing you hear a lot is I'm not against legal immigration. I'm only against illegal immigration. The reality is we have to understand what every immigrant does. And we can all agree that we want regular immigration. want an orderly immigration process. But if we don't understand why we have so much illegal immigration, and if we don't understand what people living here without authorization are doing, we can't make good decisions about that. Okay.
Chad (05:01.353)
Mm-hmm.
Zeke (05:12.012)
So let me put it kind of perhaps in a big picture answer, and then I'm sure you'll drill down on that. Every person, every person economically does five things. contribute the big five inputs to the economy. Okay. They contribute their talent. They contribute investment. They contribute innovation. They contribute their consumption and they contribute the taxes they pay. Everybody brings those five things. That's true. Whether you're a U S citizen, that's true. Whether you enter the country legally or illegally.
Chad (05:34.473)
Mm-hmm.
Zeke (05:41.6)
Everybody does those five things. We don't have enough people being born in this country, so we need more people from the outside to bring those five things. But there's a bonus, which is that immigrants bring a lot more variety of those things, because they just have different tastes and preferences. They have different connections to investment networks. They have different innovations. They bring different skills and talents. And so you don't just get a quantity of those five things. You get a variety of those five things with immigrants. That's the short of it. Now we have to fix.
Chad (05:41.908)
Mm-hmm.
Zeke (06:10.198)
the immigration system so that we don't get as much irregular immigration. But I want to emphasize that even illegal immigrants are bringing those things.
Chad (06:18.655)
And talk a little bit about investment because I mean, you talk about those five things and I think all of those, you know, pretty much we've heard before, but we haven't heard the investment angle. How are immigrants actually bringing investment to this country?
Zeke (06:33.486)
Yeah, you're right. That's one of the big untold stories. I'll illustrate that with an example. So early last year, 2023, just a couple hours from where I live in this little town called Hometown, Pennsylvania, population 3,500, there's this company called EMD Electronics that made a $300 million investment that created 200 high skilled manufacturing jobs.
These are jobs basically to build key parts, key inputs for making chips, the chips that power all our electronic devices. And I was like really confused by this. I was like, why would these jobs and such a massive investment show up at like this place in the middle of nowhere, right? Because it really is kind of in the middle of nowhere. And so, you know, being kind of the nerdy professor, I started digging into it to try to understand what's going on. And it turns out that Hometown PA was founded by German immigrants in the early 1800s, okay?
And then you might think, well, what does that have to do with anything? Well, it turns out that EMD electronics is a subsidiary of Merck KGAA, which is a German corporation. And it's not a coincidence that those two things are happening. That is, there's a lot of research showing that where immigrants settle, what happens then for many, many years after, even for over a hundred years later, companies from the immigrants home country invest like Merck KGAA investing.
in hometown Pennsylvania and those investments create jobs and they create jobs for local people. And that's true, not just of like ancestral immigrants like the Germans and hometown PA, but it's true of recent immigrants. So a lot of the investment we're getting from India, from China, from European countries, from Mexico is direct investment coming because it's coming to the communities where immigrants from those countries now have settled. then on, yeah.
Chad (08:05.278)
Hmm?
Chad (08:18.979)
So wait a minute, wait minute. This isn't an isolated, this is not an isolated incident. What you're saying is, and you have research to back this up, that the money actually follow the people. And in this case, it is rather interesting that German money would follow 100 years-ish behind settlers.
Zeke (08:44.93)
Yeah. Yeah. And I'm sure you're asking, well, why? That just seems really weird. Right? Well, look, the easiest way to understand this is put yourself in the shoes of a manager of a company that's growing and has to make investments around the world. The world's a big place. There's a lot of uncertainty about where to put your precious capital. Right? You need a network of trust. You need a network of good information about where to do business. And immigrants
over time create these corridors of information, of trust, of ideas that create these corridors between places like Germany to hometown Pennsylvania, or Filipinos living in California back to the Philippines, or Mexican firms in places where there's lots of Mexicans. And you end up with investments, job creating investments that are a pull factor that immigrants bring when they settle into towns.
And nobody tends to talk about that, right? Everybody gets stuck on the question of, these immigrants, they stealing jobs, right? And we never get to like these investment and other effects that happen. And there's another angle to investment that I'll mention real quick. It's not just that immigrants are pulling investment from where they live, from their home countries. Immigrants are also making investment directly in businesses because they're 80 % more likely to start businesses than native born people in the US. Okay?
Chad (10:08.799)
80 %?
Zeke (10:10.318)
80 % more likely, right? Their entrepreneurship rate is 80 % higher than, than, us born people. And those investments are creating jobs. And you see that everywhere. That's everything from an ethnic restaurant in the corner of your neighborhood to a corner store selling calling cards to Latin America, to Google and zoom and Pfizer and Colgate, right? Like, like these are all immigrants started companies, all over the economy that are creating jobs, not
you know, for a tiny group of immigrants, but they're creating jobs for natives. So when you pair the foreign investment and the local investment, immigrants become net job creators for everybody.
Chad (10:42.143)
Mm.
Joel (10:51.062)
Dr. Hernandez, this is a recruiting show by most, by most public opinion and popular opinion. Why it seems crazy to me that we don't think of immigration in more of a recruiting terminology. In other words, we should be out trying to get the best and brightest into our country. And it's amazing to me that if you get a master's degree or a PhD in this country, you don't get automatic citizenship. Just give me your opinion on.
What's going wrong? we improving it? Is it getting worse? What's the state of giving sort of high level, you high intelligence, high, high degree people like instant citizenships? Why, why isn't that happening?
Zeke (11:33.07)
Because Congress can't get its act together. That's the short answer, right? And it's a net loss to us. You know, we have data on this, for example, you know, we educate the number, we educate millions, millions of the world's best and brightest every year. And we, we only, so the latest estimate is that less than a quarter of them remain in the US labor market. Okay, so the negative way to put that is we're
Chad (11:40.179)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (11:50.601)
Yeah.
Zeke (12:01.026)
We're sending three quarters of them out. It's a huge, it's America's brain drain, right? It's not keeping these people. Okay. and, and, know, and by the way, the only ones that really make it into the U S labor market are the ones that graduate with STEM degrees. Anyone that doesn't have a STEM degree, they're essentially not making it to the U S labor market. And again, it's because politically we can't get our act together. And you know, what's really sad about that is that there are like proven benefits of hiring foreign born talent.
Chad (12:05.705)
Yeah.
Zeke (12:31.086)
companies get. I can talk about those if you want, but so it's not just that we're, you know, it's not just that we're filling, not just that we're filling shortages in the labor market is that we're missing out on positive benefits that come from native and foreign born talent interacting together.
Joel (12:46.986)
Is it your sense that this is split on party lines? Is it split on geography? Like kind of where people, the coast versus the middle of the country? Like where does the, where's the wedge happening?
Zeke (12:58.966)
In terms of people getting into the labor market.
Joel (13:01.342)
of PhDs getting automatic citizenship. Is that party lines? it geography? Just the whole thing's fucked up? Like, what's your take? But look on your face, the whole thing's fucked up. The whole thing needs to be tracked.
Chad (13:11.382)
We'll go with the latter.
Zeke (13:11.598)
The third option, though. Well, yeah, look, I'll give you... Let me give you a few examples, okay? So the last time we updated our immigration laws was in 1990, okay? So your listeners here, think about the labor market and the talent market in 1990. We weren't sending email in 1990, let alone using the internet or AI, right? And so we... And by the way, the immigration system was already sort of outdated for what the market needed in 1990. So let me just...
Joel (13:33.6)
Mm-hmm.
Zeke (13:41.07)
give you some real examples of the dysfunction that such an outdated system create. If you're an Indian in the US trying to get an EB2 green card, that's an employment-based green card in category two, you have a master's degree, right? You're a very desirable human capital. Do you know how long you have to wait in line for a green card? 195 years, okay? 195 years. That's insane.
Chad (13:58.367)
Mm.
Chad (14:07.135)
It's not worth it. Go to Canada. Go to Canada.
Zeke (14:09.666)
Well, that's exactly what's happening, right? We're losing that talent to Canada. We only give out 85,000 H1B visas per year. Okay, these are visas for skilled people with bachelor's and master's degrees and PhDs. Companies demand at least five to 10 times, no, not 10 times, let's say five to eight times as many, okay? And so what happens? My colleague, Britta Glennon, shows that when companies lose out on the H1B lottery, guess where they take those jobs?
Chad (14:11.998)
Yeah.
Zeke (14:38.986)
India, China and Canada, right? They're not, yeah. But, but, here's what's really critical. It's not a one-to-one exchange. It's not like, okay, look, I'll do the job in, in Missouri or I'll do it in Mumbai. Okay. You actually hire less than one person overseas for every person you can't hire in the U S so there's something lost. There's something you could have done in the company, right? Maybe the team needed two or three key pieces of talent or skill and that team now can't do that thing.
Chad (14:40.499)
Offshore. Offshore.
Chad (14:52.457)
Mm-hmm.
Zeke (15:08.844)
Right? So, so there's a net loss, a deadweight loss as economists like to say, it's not just like you're changing the geography of what you're doing. You're doing less. and that, and that, for example, makes companies less innovative. It makes companies less productive. They hire fewer natives because they don't have key skills on which to build around certain tasks. So it's, it's really like, you have to look beyond that job position and all the spillover effects of not being able to fill it.
Chad (15:17.727)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (15:38.143)
So instead of just looking at America's brain drain, because I think anybody saying that, somebody with a master's or PhD, yes, we should definitely look at that. But what about America's muscle drain? I mean, they might not be the best and brightest, but the lower half of those individuals that are coming into entry level jobs, they're the ones who are actually boosting the economy. Now, one of the reasons why America, and correct me if I'm wrong, but
Listen to the economist, one of the reasons why the economy has done so well and we are outperforming everybody else out there is because of the immigrants that are actually doing the hard supply chain jobs that most Americans don't want to do.
Zeke (16:23.118)
You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. And this is where we have to get into the real controversial issue that that Joel brought up at the beginning about undocumented or illegal immigration. Okay, here's another fun fact about our messed up system. Of all the green cards we give every year, we give about a million green cards a year. Okay. And we give 140,000 only for employment based purposes. So that already tells you something. And of those 140,000, do you know how many we give to people that don't have a college degree?
Only 5,000. Okay? The city of Philadelphia where I live by itself could use all those up every year. So when you only give 5,000 green cards to so-called unskilled people, well, guess what's going to happen to fill the gap between what we allow and what we need? Illegal immigration is going to happen. People are going to cross the border to fill jobs in farms and construction sites and household services.
Chad (16:55.197)
Wow.
Chad (17:01.386)
Mm-hmm.
Zeke (17:21.874)
in manufacturing, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. It's just going to happen. And many times it happens because employers have a very hard time screening who's here legally or not. It also happens because immigrants know that they're needed. so, you know, anytime you have such a disconnect between supply and demand, you're going to get a black market for whatever that good is. It's going to happen, right? So we just have to make the system make sense and reflect reality. Okay.
And also I wanna, for the HR professionals listening to this, I think many of them would agree with me that a college degree isn't the only indicator of skill, right? There are really skilled people, machinists, construction people, kinds, barbers that do really skilled work that we all appreciate. So it also makes no sense for us to have a system
that only caters to say Indian and Chinese engineers. That makes no sense either.
Joel (18:20.649)
I want to tell you a story about my, my teenage son and stick with me here for a second. he first got his job as it's a fast food restaurant, basically towards the end of COVID or right at the tail end of COVID. As you remember this time, it was, we can't hire enough people, like open interviews, people were getting jobs on the spot and he started work around 2022. When he started very few, any immigrants or
people who had been in the country that weren't born here naturally weren't working there. He was getting raises periodically. He was moving up the food chain. It wasn't until the last six to 12 months or so that their workforce was getting far more. They're all from Venezuela, according to him. I haven't fact-checked that, but he says they're all from Venezuela in that time. In that time, he's gotten fewer hours, no more, no more raises. So
Zeke (19:09.048)
Probably right, yeah.
Joel (19:16.854)
As an 18 year old, he looks at this and says, the Venezuelans are fucking my shit up. Agree or disagree that that's his state of mind. And he looks at in what to do for a living. And he was, you know, when he was told two years ago, the world needs plumbers, the world needs construction, the world needs all of these blue collar traditional jobs. And what he's thinking is, well, all these immigrants are coming in. They're eventually going to do those jobs.
And I'm going to go from taking orders to not having that opportunity. To me, both things could be true. Yes, some Americans don't want to do those jobs, but some Americans do want to do those jobs and they're, hitting kind of this loggerhead of immigrants bad. How do I tell him that this is good?
Zeke (20:06.006)
Yeah. Yeah.
Joel (20:06.39)
And is he wrong? Is he wrong?
Zeke (20:10.668)
Yeah, yeah, that's a really good case study. It'll take a little bit to kind of break it down. Okay. So, by the way, I believe what you're telling me and you said this is your nephew, right?
Joel (20:24.694)
My son, he's 18. Yep.
Zeke (20:26.168)
your son, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I misheard your son. Okay. So there is some research showing that actually there are certain small groups, very small groups in the US that sometimes are in direct competition with new unskilled immigrants that arrive in the economy. One of those is actually teenagers like your son. So in places where there's a lot of unskilled immigrants, teenagers tend to work fewer hours, which seems to be exactly what's happening with your son.
On average though, the average unskilled worker is not losing a job and is not losing wages to immigrants. Teenagers, because they're new to the labor market and don't have as many skills, are the most similar in the labor market to very, very new immigrants that don't have other skills coming in. But in the long run, that doesn't work out that way in a way that's negative for your son. And here's why. What the research shows is that
Sometimes there can be very short-term disruptions like what your son is experiencing, but what that does is it creates sort of a reallocation of people into jobs that play to their strengths. So for example, in restaurants, a native-born English speaker like your son might become the waiter or the manager of the restaurant, and the immigrants who don't have language skills end up doing the kitchen work and the dishwashing work. In construction,
the native person becomes a foreman that interacts with the customer and the immigrants are disproportionately doing like drywall and roofing because that doesn't require language skills. so there's kind of a reasonably efficient reallocation of skills into positions so that it becomes kind of a win-win for both. And because the jobs that require language skills and higher order skills pay more, actually sometimes what that entry of immigrants does is it actually, sometimes acts as a little bit of a push
That moves natives a little bit up the skills ladder and then they end up earning more in the long run, right? Now your son might face the short-term discomfort of having to search a little bit. So we do see that sometimes happening, but I do want to say this and this is really important to say for the record, the average person in the labor market in the US actually does not lose jobs nor loses wages to immigrants, right?
Zeke (22:48.504)
Teenagers sometimes do. And then the other group that sometimes does is actually the prior wave of immigrants that still hasn't acquired enough language and other skills. But the average native-born person does not, which is a common misconception.
Joel (23:03.222)
I will add a postmark on that in that the franchisee who owns that restaurant is building a new restaurant within like two miles of that one. So there will be new opportunity born from that store. So I appreciate your comment that yes, there's some, there's some discomfort, but there's a reshuffling of things and things grow in light of that. And things do have ways of working out. So I do want to, I do, I did want to postmark that.
Chad (23:03.881)
So.
Chad (23:13.642)
Zeke (23:30.008)
Yeah, th-
Joel (23:31.382)
But that may give him a new opportunity if he were to stay in the business to be a higher level employee based on his experience.
Chad (23:36.819)
possible management.
Zeke (23:36.942)
Yeah, or he might decide to do something else. mean, because the other thing, one of the reasons that often there's this fear that immigrants will displace native workers is that we only think immigrants as providing their labor, but we forget that they provide those big five things that I mentioned. So when you have this influx of Venezuelans, like these Venezuelans don't just get home from work and sit on their hands, right? They're spending their paycheck, like going to the movies or going to a restaurant or sometimes maybe opening their own restaurant, which makes the economic pie bigger.
And there will be an opportunity for your son in there. What might be a little unsatisfying is I can't tell you exactly what that opportunity is gonna be, but I can tell you that economy is gonna be bigger and more diverse.
Joel (24:16.919)
The good news is everyone loves a good curd burger from Culver's. That's the good news, no matter where they're from.
Chad (24:17.394)
isn't it?
Hey.
Zeke (24:20.654)
That's great. Yeah, yeah. That's great.
Chad (24:24.927)
Well, isn't it also important that we understand systems like e-Verify? Because as Joel was talking about with like plumbers and HVAC, and I know my next door neighbor is a plumber and I mean, he makes a great living. And he said directly, I wish we could actually hire more immigrants because their work ethic is amazing. They come here, they do a great job, but we can't because they won't pass e-Verify. So there are systems in place for at least
for these employers who are above board. And it just doesn't seem like we are educating the rest of our people that, look, there are these jobs that are available. They're doing these great jobs, but also there are safeties in place.
Zeke (25:10.636)
Yeah, yeah, there are. mean, to be honest, e-Verify is notoriously unreliable. I mean, look, USCIS has massive resources and they can't keep track of who's in the country legally or not. Do you expect a small business to have the resources to do that? Obviously not. And I think we can all agree that we'd rather have a market that's composed only of legal work, you know, workers who are here legally.
Chad (25:16.883)
Okay.
Zeke (25:35.918)
But again, to fix that, we have to update the system. Modernize it from 1990 to now. When you have 11 and a half million permanent undocumented immigrants in the country, it's not that you have a few bad apples that are crossing the border. It's that our entire system for bringing apples in is super screwed up. And so we could just fix the system for bringing in apples. I mean, we have to be honest about that, right?
Chad (26:00.028)
You
Zeke (26:05.558)
And when you talk to employers on the ground, which you do, they're the first ones to tell you, like, we need these people. I just wish we had a better way to hire them, right? They're not saying, just kick them all out because I have endless natives wanting these jobs. That's just not the truth. That's not what's going on on the ground.
Chad (26:22.719)
It seems like there's a huge fear factor in place and by it's estimated by 2035 to 2040, the demographics of America is going to flip and white people will not be the majority anymore, which in some cases feels like it's freaking some people out. Right. And we keep hearing this narrative of we are losing our culture. Can you speak to that a little?
Zeke (26:48.866)
Yeah, look, I have a lot of sympathy for that. And I can understand that's a very good question. There's always been a fear of the next group every time, right? Whoever the next group is. And this started all the way in the 1840s.
Chad (27:02.008)
Yeah. Irish, Polish. Yeah. yeah.
Zeke (27:06.338)
Yeah, exactly. Right. So the Irish were supposed to be unassimilable. It's kind of cute to look at that in hindsight, right? The Italians were supposed to be unassimilable. Eastern European Jews were supposed to be, you know, every new group was supposed to be impossible to assimilate. And so, you know, I think history is a very good guide. It's a very, very good guide for what's going to happen. Right. People want to come to America precisely because of what America represents and what our core values are. And yes, for prosperity as well. And
We have waves and waves of history that tell us that immigrants assimilate very successfully and actually they preserve and enhance the core values of what America is. yes, they now in fairness, they, it's also a lie to say that America will be identical a hundred years from now than it is today, right? In the same way that like, yeah, we go to the ballpark and we brought, right? Which Germans brought,
Chad (28:02.441)
Yeah.
Joel (28:03.573)
Nachos.
Zeke (28:05.324)
Yeah, which we brought some nachos. And by the way, like these were foods introduced by two really scary immigrant groups, right? But what they've done is they've introduced foods that we love, but they haven't like changed the constitution. They haven't undermined our core institutions. And so I think we have to be willing to let our grandchildren eat different foods while trusting that American institutions are strong enough, right? That's how I would think about it.
Chad (28:16.895)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (28:28.138)
Is that a harder bridge to build in America than say Europe? Because we were founded on immigrants coming from like there's a little Italy, there's a little like Chinatown, these things, you don't find those in Europe. These are countries that have been around for thousands of years. this is, is it fair to say this is a bigger issue for them, a much more challenging issue than it is for America? Or do you find that it's the same no matter what?
Zeke (28:53.65)
I think immigrants, when allowed, when you allow them to fully participate in the labor market and when you allow them to move freely, given those two conditions, they assimilate quite well everywhere they go, whether it's Europe, you know, Asia, the U S whatever, the, the, the U S has, I think, I think it's a fair thing. Like it's an empirical statement to say that the U S has been by far the most successful in doing that. Because despite kind of our federal level fights.
On the ground, Americans are very welcoming of immigrants. Immigrants are actually popular. People like immigrants, right? Two-thirds of Americans like immigrants on the ground. And so we do pretty well with that. has a different historical background. Europe also does certain things with immigrants sometimes that doesn't help. For example, many European countries are actually fairly generous to refugees.
But they're generous in a way that doesn't allow them to do those two things I mentioned, right? They put them in very concentrated ghettos or neighborhoods, right? They don't let them move freely and they don't let them participate freely in the economy because in exchange for like the generous welfare benefits they provide, and then they end up with like immigrants who have a harder time assimilating. The US in some ways by being like, you know, more laissez faire, more like ungenerous, sort of lets people participate and they do the rest.
Joel (30:13.131)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (30:17.416)
There's lot to be said for the Statue of Liberty, whether indirectly or directly. To grow up in a country where that is there and bring us your poor huddled masses, that still exists.
Chad (30:17.865)
So.
Chad (30:26.451)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (30:31.451)
It still exists. just need to, we need to talk more about it. And again, it's like we want to pick and choose the things that we talk about that are hundreds of years old instead of looking at our past and our history. And that being said, do a listener, let's say a listener or somebody viewing this podcast, and they want to be able to talk to uncle Hank during Thanksgiving dinner, for goodness sakes, how do they approach difficult conversations?
like immigration once this is because this is so fraught throughout our new cycle.
Zeke (31:07.958)
I know, and it's so sad, right? I mean, if you pay attention to the cover of the book, you'll see that I was very deliberate in choosing like happy colors because part of what I'm trying to communicate is actually it doesn't have to be fraud. When you look at the evidence, this is actually a topic that is very much a win-win. But where I would start with Uncle Frank at the Thanksgiving table is I wouldn't actually start with like what I do and be like, it turns out here's fact one, here's fact two, here's fact three, and you're an idiot, right? Because Uncle Hank's gonna get really mad.
You know, so what I would do is I would start with what are the underlying values and goals that Uncle Hank has. And I think there we can all agree. For example, if I ask you, look, what do we want for our, our communities? We want them to be safe, right? Nobody would disagree with that. We want communities that produce jobs for everybody. We want, you know, we want cultural vitality. We want demographic balance.
We want you know, we want a plenty of investment We want new innovations and products that make our lives interesting so we can agree to all of that So I would start with what do you want and I'm sure uncle Hank would agree with all that and And then and then uncle Hank would be in a position to be like, okay We want the same thing and now we can say alright Let's talk about how immigrants contribute to all those things you want uncle Hank, you know, and there yes there may be a little bit of myth-busting but it's in the direction of here's what you want uncle Hank as opposed to
Chad (32:16.937)
Yeah, find common ground.
Zeke (32:29.622)
in the direction of Uncle Hank, you're an idiot, right? And so start with what you want. Just make a list and then go from there. That's what I would do.
Chad (32:38.657)
Even if Uncle Frank's an idiot, we should back off of that, right? Yeah, we should definitely back off of that.
Zeke (32:45.196)
Well, I can't tell you what to do. mean, yeah, yeah.
Joel (32:45.558)
Is this Frank or Hank? I'm very confused. Frank and Hank. I guess they're brothers.
Chad (32:48.467)
Well, they're both idiots. They're both idiots. Just go ahead and throw that out there.
Zeke (32:52.12)
Look, this comes with the territory, but having written this book, I've been attacked viciously by people who are really angry about immigration, right? And sometimes it's people who really don't wanna talk, right? And they'll call me slurs, right? They'll say, you're gay, right? It has nothing to do with my position on immigration. they'll say, by the way, I happen to be married to a woman, I'm straight, but they'll tell me things like this that are like, you don't even wanna talk, right? You're just kind of.
Chad (33:18.557)
Yeah.
Joel (33:21.014)
When they go there, just know that you've won the argument. They have nothing left but to call you gay.
Zeke (33:22.048)
You want to fight? Yeah.
Zeke (33:26.454)
Yeah, yeah. So let's assume that the uncle's sincere, right? Yeah, anyway.
Chad (33:31.038)
Yeah.
Joel (33:32.48)
So I want to take sort of the other side of this and you mentioned, you know, we need population, we need people. Chad thinks we should, we should not be in that position, but that's a different podcast altogether. I think if you listen to the opposing people who oppose immigration, they will say that it's a drain on healthcare. It's a drain on education. It's a drain on, you know, welfare and government services. But I want you to talk about the other side. Like those things happen if we close the border.
Chad (33:43.637)
Anos.
Joel (34:01.974)
too, because we don't have enough younger workers to do those things, to support those systems. So talk a little bit about the other side where there's no immigration and what happens.
Zeke (34:13.602)
Yeah, sure. mean, look, let's use the Great Depression as an example, Prices went down during the Great Depression, right? know, cost of housing was really cheap in the early 1930s, but that's because you had a demand shock. You had a smaller economy, right? You shrunk the economic pie and people couldn't afford things. And, you know, yeah, there was less demand, less, you could even say less competition for public services, et cetera.
Chad (34:22.195)
Yeah, not good. Yeah.
Zeke (34:43.018)
I don't think that we want that, although the mass deportation idea is taking us in that direction. People, right? People of all kinds, whether immigrants or not, end up being the ones who pay taxes, end up being the ones who provide the labor force to build housing and infrastructure, end up being the labor force that provides teachers when you have to build a new school.
It's true that in the short run, right? And by short run, mean, you know, say one to five years after immigrants arrive. Sometimes if the inflow is unexpected or really rapid, you're going to get a strain on public services. Schools will be a little more crowded. The cost of housing could go up a bit. You know, the city is going to have to spend more, more taxpayer money on public services or housing, et cetera.
Chad (35:24.478)
Mm-hmm.
Zeke (35:32.782)
Yes, that is going to happen with new people, whether they come from California or whether they come from China, right? That's going to happen. But again, the goal isn't to kick them out and shrink the economy. The goal is to increase the supply of all those things. And that's where new people are the solution. One example is like the claim that's been made recently that immigrants are putting pressure on housing prices. Well, the only way to get out of that is to build a lot and increase the supply of housing. Who's going to build your houses?
It's not native born people. I'll tell you that, right? Immigrants are a quarter of the construction labor force, but they're more than half of key bottlenecks in construction, like drywall installation, roofing, flooring, and other, you know, very manual, very, very, you know, what you could, you could call it unskilled, positions. So without immigrants, you can't get yourself out of the housing crisis is the point. And the same is true with like our long-term entitlement programs. The same is true for building new schools, cetera.
Chad (36:07.513)
huh.
Joel (36:31.862)
Is mass deportation even realistic? You mentioned that and we hear a lot on the news. It just seems unrealistic.
Zeke (36:39.51)
No, logistically, would be, I know this is controversial, but it would be more expensive to mass deport the, say 12 million people that are here without authorization than to give them all amnesty, if that makes sense, right? So an economist would say, look, you're much better off with amnesty than mass deportation. But that's just the direct cost of the deportation. The real pernicious part is that you're kicking out 12 million people again.
who provide those five inputs, talent, innovation, taxes, consumption, and investment, right? And so do you wanna create a Great Depression scenario again where you contracted the economy? That's the real long-term cost of a mass deportation. And that's what would really, really hurt us more than whatever much money we'd have to spend on identifying, rounding up and flying out 11 million people or 12 million people.
Joel (37:34.462)
And it would also send a message to everyone, don't come here. And it would affect things for a longer period of time than just the mass deportation.
Chad (37:38.825)
Yes. Yes.
Zeke (37:42.156)
That's right. And I think the people who listen to this podcast who need to hire talent would be some of the first in line to say we are being really hurt by this. Our businesses are being hurt by this.
Chad (37:55.583)
Well, I think you're seeing CEOs of major, corporations today saying that and who they're actually putting their voice behind for president. I mean, it comes down to yes, tariffs and whatnot, but also a lot of that has to do with immigration and ensuring that we have the workforce necessary to be able to service, to be able to provide that supply chain that's necessary just to be able to keep us moving every day.
Joel (37:56.298)
I think you're right.
Zeke (38:25.838)
Absolutely, let alone consumers. Do you want to lose 12 million consumers in the economy? I'm not sure that you do. So it's both a supply and a demand side problem.
Chad (38:31.762)
No, no.
Chad (38:36.069)
It is it is kids. Well, that is Professor Zeke Hernandez. If you haven't if you haven't gotten it yet, you got to get the book. It's called The Truth About Immigration Why Successful Societies Welcome Newcomers Sounds Sounds Interesting America. Zeke, if you do us a favor, tell us where if somebody wants to connect with you or maybe even buy the book, where would you send them?
Zeke (38:59.032)
Yeah, I think the easiest place is go to my website, ZekeHernandez.net, ZekeHernandez.net, and on social media, I'm Prof Zeke, Prof Zeke, all one word. I love to connect.
Chad (39:10.643)
Sounds like a great podcast. Prof Zeke.
Joel (39:12.448)
Ty, everybody go hug an immigrant. Go hug an immigrant. Chad, that's another one in the can. We out.
Zeke (39:12.718)
Well, you might have a competitor.
Chad (39:21.242)
We out!
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