The hills are alive with the sound of acquisitions! The latest - Recruitics acquiring KRT Marketing - is the fourth similar deal in just a month. The boys cover the news, as well as discussing how much is sucks to be Slack right now, pane view job search, Amazon drones and Monster's continued cluelessness. Enjoy and show our sponsors some respect: Sovren, JobAdx and Canvas.
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by:
James Ellis: Hey, this is James Ellis from The Talent Cast podcast, and you're listening to The Chad & Cheese Podcast. So perhaps, treat this message like an intervention. Why are you doing this to yourself? You have so much to live for. Why would you waste your time here, of all places?
Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls, it's time for The Chad & Cheese Podcast. So weird.
Joel: Summer, summer time. Just sit back and you're invited to a barbecue that's starting at 4:00 everybody. Welcome to The Chad & Cheese Podcast, HR's most dangerous dudes. I'm Joel Cheesman.
Chad: I am Chad Sowash.
Joel: On this week's show another big acquisition shocker.
Chad: Oh, hello.
Joel: Slack is officially fucked, and we now have an expletive on our podcast. And Monster is still totally clueless.
Joel: Just sit back and unwind, because it's summer, summer, summer time, and it's also JobAdX time.
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Chad: Well, hello?
Chad: From Millay-Waukay. Yes, it is gorgeous out. It is in the low seventies. And we have a rooftop bar thing that happens. So, after I leave here, after we're done with this, I'm going to go produce out on that wonderful area. And just enjoy my time here in Milwaukee.
Joel: Very nice. How are the cheese curds? Is the question.
Chad: Dude, yeah. Beer and cheese curds. If you come to Milwaukee, and you're not doing beer and cheese curds, I think that's just really a staple.
Sound Effects: Boo.
Joel: Boo on you if you don't cheese curd it up.
Chad: If you don't cheese curd it, you might get sent to prison.
Joel: Well, enjoy your time there. Are you staying the weekend?
Chad: No, we're actually kicking out late tomorrow. But Julie is in heaven, because her favorite beer of all time is Leinenkugel's Summer Shandy. We come in the airport, and they have a Leinenkugel's store. And I pointed it out to her, and she was like, "Oh my God, this is where I was meant to be."
Joel: That would only officially be her heaven if the Obama's were in the bar with her, with being served by Pete Buttigieg. Shout out.
Chad: Shout out. Okay. So, first shout out, I've got to do this. It's to CareerBuilder, because I think they're fucking with us. I really do. So, they are doing a Tech Talk at an event that is called, Your Brand As Told By Your Employees. And-
Ed from Philly: Yo, that jawn is so lame.
Chad: I don't know if this is, like-
Joel: Do they have many employees left to tell a story?
Chad: I don't know. This sounds like a comedy session to me, right? This just was the most ironic thing, and it was sent to us by a listener. Thank you very much. But CareerBuilder Tech Talk: Your Brand As Told By Your Employees. And from their standpoint, it's like, "You suck."
Joel: Yeah. And part of the joke is, we found an article this week about how EMSI, the company they let go out of the spirals of hell, are now are now thriving outside of CareerBuilder's slimy hands. So, good job, EMSI.
Chad: Yeah, good job. It's amazing what you can do when you get to get away from the hell scape which is CareerBuilder and Apollo.
Joel: Yeah. Yeah. Well, one company in the shitter drives us to one company doing great things. Our new sponsor, I think we need to to give them some love here.
Chad: That's exactly right.
Joel: Shout out to Happy Recruiter.
Chad: Why Happyrecruiter.com?
Joel: Why not?
Chad: Because recruiters that are mad are not good for the company. You want a happy recruiter, right?
Joel: Happy recruiter. So Dora is their chatbot.
Joel: All the rage. If you're shopping for chatbots, make sure that Happy Recruiter's Dora is in your shopping list, at Happyrecruiter.com.
Chad: Too easy, too easy.
Joel: Too easy.
Chad: Big shout out to The Chad & Cheese movie. It's out right now. It went straight to Betamax. Seriously. Seriously.
Joel: Coming to a Blockbuster near you.
Chad: That's right, straight to a Blockbuster near you. No, seriously. Check it out. You can go to ChadCheese.com. We have it on the homepage, or you can actually check it out on YouTube. Whatever you want. But I love the subtle British-like humor in the undertones, and how slick they shot the movie. Because it seems so serious. But then there are all these hints of, like, "These guys ... This isn't serious, is it?" And it's like, "No." We don't take ourselves that serious, it's fucking hilarious.
Joel: Clearly the best 13 minutes you'll spend in your day, today.
Chad: Exactly. And I think the ending really just pulls it all together. I mean, you will laugh, you will cry. It's a roller coaster of emotions. You'll enjoy it.
Joel: I don't want to spoil it everybody, but, love wins in the end.
Chad: Jim Stroud tweeted about The Chad & Cheese movie, and this is obviously one of his reviews, "I never thought I would ever hear the terms HR and orgasms in the same sentence, with all that making sense in the end. Only Chad & Cheese could pull that off, and still deliver the goods." Thank you, Jim Stroud.
Joel: Full of surprises that benefits civilization. That's what you get at the show. That's what you get at the show.
Joel: Let me shout out to Gerry Crispin.
Chad: Oh yeah.
Joel: Our buddy, Ed, from Philly responded a while back that Jerry has really classed up the show. I couldn't agree more. In our five-piece series with Jerry- the last one came out earlier this week, called End Game. But I encourage you to listen to all the shows, if you haven't heard any. Jerry, thanks for playing along, and we'll chat again real soon.
Chad: No shit, man. It was great stuff. Also, big thanks to Faith and Steven Rothberg for sitting down with Julie and me when we were in Denver, during Job Gate. To talk about how college is going to break the US economy if we don't get our shit straight soon. So, that's a topic that I think is center stage for our economy today. Not to mention, our economy effects everybody else's economy throughout the world, because we are in a global economy. And it was amazing how many people actually responded back, and that was obviously an important topic for them, too. So, thanks to Faith and Steven for that one.
Joel: I love it when we get a little bit out of our comfort level, and talk about these bigger issues.
Joel: That's always fun.
Chad: That's good stuff.
Joel: That's always fun.
Joel: Shout out to sponsor Talroo and Brazen, the two partner this week. Two tastes are better than one, as anyone from the 80s Reese's Peanut Butter Cup viewing will know. Congratulations to them, their partnership. Check that out at Talroo.com if you want to know more.
Chad: Yeah. And my last shout out is to the Job Board Doctor, who we haven't talked about in a while. But he enjoyed the London Pub episode with Rob Prince from Talent Nexus. Who thinks we should bring Rob back on the show? Which will probably happen.
Joel: Aren't we going to see someone, somewhere, soon from the Talent Nexus crib?
Chad: Yeah, we're actually going see Jim and a Thomas. And it was funny because they said ... They're coming from London, so they said that they're going to come to Austin rent Harley's and find a shooting range. They want to have the Texas experience.
Joel: And ride a longhorn.
Chad: That's right.
Joel: Yeah, yeah. Ride on mechanical bull do that. Do that. Yeah, I like when we do the live shows with the mics. We get some cool interaction particularly when we have guests. So it's no surprise that the doctor enjoyed that show.
Chad: Events so ...
Joel: Where are we going?
Chad: In the next three months, that's all I have time for today kids. We're going to Tengai, ADA digital, and TNG for a live show from Malmo, Sweden in late August. I am fucking pumped for that show.
Joel: I'm already searching for Viking museums. They got a few there.
Chad: September 9th through the 11th it's Recruiter Nation Live brought to you by our friends at Jobvite. We also have a discount code for Recruiter Nation Live. It's ChadCheese@RNL. ChadCheese@RNL, so the code's going to give you $200 off the current registration.
Joel: Don't forget to mention, this'll be our first a Aman Brar interview since he's been CEO at Jobvite. So I'm hoping to get some good content out of him while we're there.
Chad: He's always a good interview.
Joel: He's a great interview for sure.
Chad: Always a good interview. September 24th and 25th going to Austin for TAtech North America.
Joel: Death Match!
Chad: Death Match! So we're really excited about ... How can you not be excited about fucking death match? It is such a fun program. The contestants that get on stage have a blast. It's really simple. It's a two minute pitch. We do Q and A at the end of it, four judges get together and we determine who the grand champion is. Can't wait to do that.
Joel: Yeah bring it on baby. Death Match!
Chad: The first part of October we're going to HR Tech in Vegas where we will be doing two live shows. They already have scheduled and HR tech go figure also has a discount code which is simply ChadCheese, which will give you $300 off the going rate. All access premium path. Check it out.
Joel: How funny that we were banned from HR Tech last year and this year we're knee deep in it. I love it.
Chad: Yeah. I think banned is a strong word, but yeah.
Joel: It is a strong word.
Chad: Last but not least, we're going to be in Paris. SmashFly is sending us to UNLEASH World in late October. So we're really excited about that. SmashFly, they're going to get their money's worth, I promise.
Joel: Come on October in Paris?
Joel: Bring on the wine, bring on the croissant. I love it.
Chad: We need SmashFly gear to be wearing all around Paris.
Joel: Yeah, obviously I get that thong ordered there Jay-Z.
Chad: Time for topics.
Joel: Big acquisition.
Chad: Okay. Okay. Okay. So I'm going to start this off with a tweet from Steven Rothberg from a few weeks ago or actually last week. And he said, "So apparently TMP is already notifying publishers that they're leaving APPcast in six to eight weeks. Wow, that's fast." And then Recruitics says, "TMP hold my beer." Acquires KRT marketing. And so I've got a personal story behind this. It's a podcast story. A couple of weeks ago I asked, did Recruitics make the wrong decision because all these programmatic players are getting gobbled up. Did Recruitics make the wrong decision by pivoting to an agency model instead of just staying a pure programmatic player?
Chad: And Josh pretty much said, Sowash you're a dumb ass, which I think is awesome. For these guys to be able to do what they're doing and grow and really change the game itself. TMP bought a small programmatic player I've never heard of, but I think that's awesome. In this case we're talking about, especially here in the US, we're talking about two players that everybody's heard of. KRT is the nerdiest of the nerds. They've branded themselves as programmatic plus. And really knowing what programmatic is when talent acquisition can't spell programmatic.
Chad: And then Recruitics really deep into, obviously programmatic, distribution, and analytics. I think this is probably one of the best marriages that I could have seen. I didn't see it coming. I think this is awesome.
Joel: Yup. And this is, I believe the fourth deal like this in the last month. So programmatic and their marriages with others continues to be hot. What really stood out to me was that it usually is the agency that buys the tech and not the tech that buys the agency. So in the mid-2000s you had agencies try to build it themselves. And they kind of learned that that was sort of a bad thing to do. And then it was just like, let's partner, let's just be agency consultants. And now the trend seems to be let's buy people that know how to do the technology and bring them into the family. But this is first time I can think of where the technology buys the agency.
Chad: Yeah. I mean, Recruitics really was an agency, but you're right. They were more heavy on the tech side than they were the agency side, I feel. And this was, I think, beautiful move from their standpoint to say, no, we are an agency. It's a great acquisition from a talent standpoint. When you're bringing a Ryan Christoi, Mona, Olivia, all those different, just incredibly smart agency people, and a portfolio of business with you, dude, that is fucking genius.
Joel: Yeah. Yeah. I'm really interested to see, you know what Shakers, Bayard's, the other groups move will be. And if they make any move into this space. Because the anti is being upped if you will and it's their move. We'll see what happens.
Chad: Well it's not just the anti's been upped, but you know that all the programmatic players that are out there today, what they were getting perspectively offered two months ago, has gone up dramatically.
Joel: Yeah, probably. There are a lot more buyers than there are sellers. Now we did report a while back that at least one insider thought Appcast took too little money. I think 93 million was what they got, and this person thought they could have gotten a lot more. But that set the market, right? Just when a star athlete gets paid first, then all the others come in with an already made price tag. And that seems to have happened in this market. Once Appcast went, everyone knew what their price tag was and deals were starting to get done.
Chad: To round this out, I'm kind of biased because both of these organizations were critics and KRT. Whenever we talk shit about them, they always respond back, and they want to be a part of the conversation. And they really understand what we're trying to do here at the podcast. We're trying to push the conversation. We're trying to ask the hard questions and they've always engaged, always engaged. Whether it's behind the scenes or it's out in front of everybody. They've always engaged and that's what I love about these two organizations.
Joel: Yeah. Yeah. Good people. And I joked with one of them, I don't know if he'd want to be named so I won't. But I said, I said, And just a little information we've been trying to get probably both of them to sponsor something on the show for a long time and they've always dodged us conveniently. But I said, "No wonder you haven't been advertising. You've been saving all that money up for acquisitions." So they got a kick out of that one.
Chad: All, I have to say is hold my beer.
Joel: Hold my beer. Yeah. Very nice. Well done. Recruitics and KRT.
Chad: I love it. Love it. So Slack.
Joel: Is fucked.
Chad: Yeah. So it's interesting because they've just really done a big change in infrastructure to be able to make their platform much faster. And you would think that we would be talking right now about how Slack is going to continue to do well in the market. Although, I don't think either one of us see it that way. Do we?
Joel: So when you look at Slack with zero platform competing with, oh, I don't know, Google, Microsoft, and Facebook to have users on basically something that's a commodity. They're in an uphill battle and they better become a platform themselves if they're going to compete. But I think neither of us think that if they build a platform that it's going to be competitive with what Microsoft and Google has already built.
Chad: Yeah. I know that they are doing some type of partnership with Google and who knows where that's going to go. But they're really trying to replace email. And I'm not saying that Google is not looking to do the same thing from an evolutionary standpoint. From the article, my biggest focus was Microsoft is using all channels available to market teams aggressively. Including through channel partnerships that sell other Microsoft products. We're talking about sales infrastructure. That is amazing, right?
Chad: So if you just inject teams into a sales infrastructure, or into a suite of services that already powers a lion's share of the systems that are out there today. It's like, Holy Shit, dude, how do you compete against that? The only way you can compete really is defined in organization like a Microsoft. Get acquired, have deep integrations, but they have to do something.
Joel: Which is why Amazon, as I've been predicting for two years, will be buying Slack and plugging into the network. It could be a possible acquisition for Salesforce as well. They're being predicted to come in a big way. Buying Slack would definitely put them in the conversation.
Chad: Yeah, and as I've said before, I really hate their fucking Chatter product, so maybe they can show-
Ed from Philly: Yo that jawn is so lame.
Chad: Yeah maybe they can run Slack in, let's see.
Joel: Well, speaking of a company whose technology does not suck, let's get a quick word from Canvas and we'll talk about T-Pain or Pane View or something.
Canvas: Canvas is the world's first intelligent text-based interviewing platform, empowering recruiters to engage, screen, and coordinate logistics via text. And so much more. We keep the human that's you, at the center while Canvas Bot is at your side, adding automation to your workflow. Canvas leverages the latest in machine learning technology and has powerful integrations that help you make the most of every minute of your day. Easily amplify your employment brand with your newest culture video or add some personality to the mix by firing off a Bitmoji. We make compliance easy and are laser focused on recruiter success. Request a demo at gocanvas.io and in 20 minutes we'll show you how to text at the speed of talent. That's gocanvas.io get ready to text at the speed of talent.
Joel: T-Pain. I don't really have the voice for the machine to do that.
Chad: So yeah. We talked about the whole Two-Pane scenario when Indeed went to it and then Monster went to it. Yeah, and this whole Two-Pane. So really quick, it was very simple before when you would go to Indeed and you would click on a job, it would actually take you to where the job sat. And in many cases that was on the employers applicant tracking system. So it took you away from Indeed, but it actually popped up a browser, which you can get rid of. But, still it took you away from Indeed and the browsing, it kind of made it jumbly.
Chad: So what they did was they instituted this Two-Pane scenario, which you'll find on some of the other shopping sites that are out there. And you can click on it and then the description opens up in Indeed. So it doesn't take you to the corporate site. It's just a better user experience for the job seeker. Now, Chris Forman, just did an article ...
Chad: Yes, from Appcast. Just did an article on ERE around Pane View. Did you read it? Did you get a chance?
Joel: Chris has more money now than us by the way.
Chad: That's not saying much, but did you get a chance to read it?
Joel: I hope he's in Fiji listening to this. Yes, I did. I did. And ERE article. I think everyone agrees that it's probably better for the job seeker. You're not jumping to different pages, different sites. Obviously that is more convenient for them. I think where the argument comes in is, is it better for the job site/employer whose jobs are being Paned? I guess is that a verb? In this process. Imagine if Google did this. Imagine if Google, if you clicked on a result and it opened up a second window within Google of the site that you were searching? From a user, you could argue that's nicer. But websites would freak the fuck out because they rely on traffic, and retargeting, and selling ad space, and doing all that stuff.
Joel: So the verdict is definitely out on whether or not it's better for the advertiser from a user perspective. But I'd say also from a cost perspective. And Forman talked about how the amount of money that you're paying per click now is going up quite a bit. Almost doubling, I think, in his article. And the cost per applicants that are clicking on those jobs is going up because fewer are applying. Because it's more or less window shopping than it is actually test driving when you do this. So the job site is making more money and the employers paying more money, but the results they're getting are going down. So you could argue that it's bad for the employer/ job sites.
Chad: Yeah. So the old click model where you actually went to the employer's website was about 6.5% of the clicks went through. Were actually for paid advertisers, went through and completed the application. Now it's only 3.5%. So it's been cut dramatically. It's driving higher costs per application prices. The effective cost per applicant from Pane View publishers has doubled year over year due to the overall conversion rates. So here's the thing, and this is the really important piece. Is that if you are an employer, and you are paying for these amazing experiences on your website.
Chad: And you are paying to get that job seeker to your website to be able to have that experience, that great experience, it's going to happen less as much. Half as much. And you're going to be paying double for that. So is this great for an employer and that experience? And the big question is, should they just start pulling their money from these sites that are Two-Pane?
Joel: In a perfect world, this would drive a cost per applicant model. So it wouldn't really matter if they're coming to the site or doing it on indeed or monster. You're only paying if someone applies as opposed to per click. But I've heard no uproar from employers at this point saying if you're going to do Two-Pane or Pane View, then you need to have a cost per action or applicant model. But I think if the Pane thing continues, there needs to be some grassroots effort to get this thing from a cost per click model to a cost per applicant model.
Chad: Yeah, well and I think agencies overall, they are in the best position to do that because they're the ones controlling a lot of the programmatic spend. So they can have these discussions and I understand that there is an agency group now. That they're having these types of discussions and if there was a group that could move the dial, it would be that group.
Joel: It is very important to talking about programmatic. Because if the algorithm is deciding where the clicks are being paid, and where they're most efficient, then the Pane model puts the job site at a disadvantage. Because you're paying more for clicks. Too many clicks that aren't resulting in applicants. So if you're using the Pane View with programmatic advertising, you may be shooting yourself in the foot. Because the dollars are going to go elsewhere because the cost per click is too high.
Chad: And that's what you get for Two-Paning it. Again, I mean it's, the thing is that you definitely want to have a great job seeker experience. But if you're an employer, isn't that your job to ensure that when the job seeker comes to you, they have a great experience? That's the hard piece, right? Because most companies, most hiring companies, they have a shitty experience. And if you are in Indeed or if you are a Monster, it's like, look, you guys have shitty experiences you always have. We want them to have a great experience, at least when they're with us. But the problem is for Monster and Indeed who's fucking paying them?
Joel: Do you have any predictions for the fight?
Chad: Yeah. I don't think companies are savvy enough to even start having this conversation. That's why I said that agencies need to start having this conversation. I understand that it is more money for them, there's no question. But they're there to do what's best for the client. And overall, I don't think doubling the price with less applications especially in a world where they're really focused on the user experience on the corporate career site. I think we leave it up to them and we start to have conversations with them to see where they take it.
Joel: Well, you know who is getting to a point where they don't have to worry about job ads because the robots are taking over? Let's talk about Amazon drones and the first ever totally automated warehouse in Japan.
Chad: Dude. So the FAA actually approved Amazon drone deliveries. Now we knew this was coming. We knew this was coming but I just couldn't believe it happened. Yeah, we couldn't believe that it happened so fast. I mean, my God dude.
Joel: Yeah. The government is usually pretty slow to adopt this sort of stuff and the fact that the FAA approved it is pretty crazy. You've seen the video with the blimp, the Amazon Blimp, with the drones flying out of it? Like it's something from aliens meets Terminator? We're getting to that future closer than we think. And it all starts with the FAA approving these drones. They're coming people.
Chad: Yeah, it certainly does. And if you think about it, that blimp in itself could be a warehouse. And it has all the packages that you need to deliver. And there you go. And drones are just going back and forth and getting the actual packages to deliver. Again, this is incredibly interesting. It's funny because all the news reports they were all focusing on, well these drones, what's going to happen in high traffic areas? And those types of things. And I think the FAA will pretty much stymie those areas like New York City or something.
Chad: But what I'm thinking, what you and I've talked about is I don't think it's a robot problem. I think it's going to be a human problem and people are going to be taking pot shots of these things. And that's where we're going to see the news go. What do you think?
Joel: Oh, I'm buying stock in BB gun companies right now. Because every kid under 18 is going to be trying to shoot these things out of the sky until they get cameras and face recognition. And if you're found they'll cut off your Amazon Prime subscription to protect themselves. But fortunately for Amazon as well, those pesky employees who are peeing in trash cans and boycotting their Prime days, it looks like they're going to be a thing in the past too. Because in the same week we have the first fully automated robotized warehouse in Japan.