Rippling v Deel: Over the Top
- Chad Sowash
- May 2
- 37 min read
When corporate espionage meets Silicon Valley drama, the lawsuits fly faster than crypto coins at a Miami tech bro party.
🔥 It’s Over the Top energy all the way as Rippling and Deel square off in a corporate slap-fight featuring spies, subpoenas, and a crypto side hustle gone sideways. Buckle up, kids—this beef is messy, petty, and beautiful. Just the way we like it. Can’t stop. Won’t stop. Cue the affidavits.
🎯 Other Big Topics in This Episode:
RTO = Layoff Lite: Uber, Google, and Microsoft are dragging employees back to the office—with layoffs disguised as "come back or else."
Empty Ports, Empty Shelves
TikTok Saves Grandma
Gen Z + AI = No Entry-Level Jobs
Canada Claps Back
Economic Gut Punch: Stagflation, layoffs, and a labor market on edge—aka your weekly reminder that winter is indeed coming.
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION
Joel (00:27.995)
OHHHH
Joel (00:34.139)
Pack it up, pack it in. We came to win. Hey boys and girls, it's the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel "Shadeur" Cheeseman.
Maureen Clough (00:43.534)
And I'm your co-host Maureen, AKA Mo. What if I need 30 plus dolls?
Chad (00:49.68)
You probably don't, but we'll talk about that later. And this is Chad, "Historic Promotion" Sowash.
Joel (00:57.147)
And on this episode, deal strikes back, UPS says don't come back, and Uber tells workers that they'd better come back. Let's do this.
Chad (01:09.832)
30 dolls? What the hell is 30 dolls?
Joel (01:10.565)
Baby got back. that's the Trump thing. Who needs, they'll get two dolls instead of 30. Who the hell's getting 30 dolls? The Trump family, I guess. The Trump, yeah.
Maureen Clough (01:13.422)
I need 30. I need them.
Chad (01:18.726)
No, wait. Yes. Yes. Yeah.
Maureen Clough (01:18.734)
Probably his kids, probably his kids, yeah. I I just, kind of feel like I don't need someone who's giving guided tours showing off gold angels and his ostentatious wealth to tell me that I should have only two dolls. Sorry, just not landed. Yeah, exactly, he's like, come on, man, come on.
Chad (01:31.08)
In a gold toilet. Yeah. Okay. So, so, so let's talk about the economy and jobs real quick. Okay. Listener. Okay. Listener. Just listen. Just want to hit this high points real quick to be able to jump through this. us job openings fell to 7.2 million in March, private payroll growth slowed way below expectations. GDP hits the negative. Yes. And Q4 GDP.
Uh, was 2.4%. We're now looking at about negative 0.03. Um, then the conference board said consumer confidence dropped almost eight points this month, the lowest reading since May of 2020. What the lion did in a hundred days. It's in a hundred days.
Maureen Clough (02:16.814)
Thanks
Maureen Clough (02:20.238)
It's like a grenade. It's crazy. Yeah. Debbie Downer. God, no, no. Please don't do that to me.
Joel (02:23.46)
starting the show off on a high note, so I love it. And I thought we'd talk about the draft.
Chad (02:29.884)
What about WeChat? Well, that's,
Joel (02:31.515)
No, sorry.
But I do have a Seattle question, Mo. I'm seeing a lot of TikToks and whatnot about the port of Seattle being empty because nothing's coming in and you being on the ground, kinda. that, I know you don't have like that Pacific front, ocean front property. Like, this a topic in Seattle? The port is empty and people freaking out or not so much?
Chad (02:41.618)
Mm.
Maureen Clough (02:43.706)
Maureen Clough (02:47.947)
on the ground reporting live. Yeah, I haven't been
Chad (02:48.038)
On the ground.
Maureen Clough (02:53.43)
Not port side, my friend. yeah. Oceanfront property by the port.
Chad (02:57.029)
Or does she?
Maureen Clough (03:01.262)
I don't leave my house, your guess is as good as mine. I don't know, I don't live port side, but yeah, I'm sure it's, of course it's taken a hit. Of course it's pretty...
Chad (03:09.384)
You eat
Joel (03:09.411)
I read books from the 1800s and I never leave my house and I have my own Victory Garden in the back. I am ready for the end of days. I am ready for the end of days. Geez.
Chad (03:12.584)
Yes.
Well, that being said, we did talk to somebody who did understand what was happening, what was happening. Right. So the biggest topic of discussion for me personally, beyond higher prices in the last hundred days is the impact on small businesses. And I want to go ahead and set up a clip from an interview we did earlier this week with Beth Benaki, the CEO and founder of a small business called Busy Baby. You might have seen her on Shark Tank, but
Maureen Clough (03:19.95)
Leave their house. good, good. Fill me in.
Maureen Clough (03:33.582)
Mm. Yeah.
Chad (03:48.252)
Beth is frantically trying to figure out how to stay alive after these terrors. Let's go ahead and play this clip real quick.
Joel (03:54.907)
She is not alone.
Maureen Clough (03:56.654)
Mm-mm.
Chad (04:37.352)
fucking crazy.
Chad (04:51.09)
That was from earlier this week. Again, our interview with Beth, the entire interview was amazing. She has done so much work to even see if she could bring her manufacturing back to the U S she's done the dollars and cents. She's done all that. The SBA says there's about 33 million small businesses in the U S which account for
Joel (05:06.011)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (05:13.224)
46.4 % of the private sector jobs. Now, Beth is only one story. Totally get that. She doesn't reflect all of the 33 million, but just think of hundreds of thousands, hundreds of thousands of small businesses who employ people in your community. People who pay taxes, people who spend in the local economy. The ripple effects are real, and that's what I think we need to really focus on.
Joel (05:30.106)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (05:42.147)
I love the insider info she gave us about Walmart and Target and I think Home Depot going to talk to the president, which happened and he sort of changed the tune on some of this, but not enough to make a big difference. Yeah, the ripple effects on this, I don't think we have any idea yet how this is going to hit.
Maureen Clough (05:59.178)
Mm-mm. the dominoes are falling.
Chad (06:01.426)
Well, you were talking about prices and she said, I'm not as worried about prices. We're looking at empty shelves at this point. And that's what's the most scary, right? I mean, it is one thing that we have and we'll talk more about, you know, jobs in the US and whatnot and how they're going down and wage. Obviously the power, the dollar buying power is much lower as well. So yeah, this is all, I mean, literally ripple effects.
Joel (06:08.975)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Clough (06:09.678)
Hmm
Joel (06:28.609)
It empty shelves impact everyone. It's not a, I've got money to weather this and I can still buy my stuff. Stuff on shelves means we're all screwed. Like no matter if you have money or not. So that was very, very, very telling, from what I saw.
Maureen Clough (06:29.484)
It's heartbreaking. Yep, exactly. Mm-mm. Mm-mm.
Yep. This is hitting everybody. It's just heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking.
Chad (06:40.327)
Yeah.
Joel (06:47.183)
which is the theme of this show. So let's get into.
Chad (06:47.304)
All right. Let's, let's bring it up. Let's bring it up. I'm going to bring it up kids with Rexam's third straight and historic promotion. So shout out to Rexam. This has never been done before. Never been done before from the national league promoted from the national league to league two, league two to league one. And now they are promoted to the championship league three consecutive years in 2021, their first full season of owners that being,
Maureen Clough (06:48.908)
Yeah.
Chad (07:15.912)
McElhenney and Reynolds, their revenues increased by 404 % to just under 6 million. That was year one. And then 2022 to 2023, they rose 75 % from 6 to 10.5 million. 2023 to 2024, Wrexham announced a record profit, AKA turnover.
to 26.7 million pounds, making out 155 % increase from the previous year. They're just growing, growing, growing. And if you want to know why, it's really simple. Watch Welcome to Wrexham. If you watch it, you can see this is a master class in business. While you see NFL icons like J.J. Watt buy into Premier League teams that get relegated down to the Championship League the very next year, McElhenney and Reynolds bought cheap at the bottom.
Joel (08:09.627)
Bye Lowe.
Chad (08:10.022)
the national league, they created a story and they blew the doors off the league. So shout out to a masterclass in business and three straight historic promotions to Wrexham. And it only took a Canadian and an American to make that happen kids.
Joel (08:25.637)
So how many more till they till they get to be in the Premier League? For those not as versed on this sport as you are.
Maureen Clough (08:25.678)
power of different teams.
Maureen Clough (08:31.82)
Yeah, I got a Ted Lasso level of education on this. So like, that's the only reason I understood a single word of what you just said.
Chad (08:38.78)
Which is, which is, which is why you've got to watch welcome to Rexham because they, from the season one, they actually show you the pyramid of the league, right? The premier league being on top. And in their case, they were at the bottom of the national league. And, so that just watching the promotions, which is awesome. but at, at the end of it, I don't know. I didn't think they'd go to the championship league already. I mean, they shot up through the ranks.
Joel (09:03.493)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (09:05.668)
I think they're buying power and they're mainly their star power and their their tick tock ability. Their Wrexham, a welcome to Wrexham ability gets gets these guys to become superstars on the big and small screen. So there's this huge lure to get to get people from leagues that are well above the league they're playing in. So can they get some awesome like top shelf talent from the Premier League to come down?
to the championship league, I think that's gonna be the question. They've been able to do that before, but they've never had to spend this kind of fucking money.
Joel (09:34.907)
Hmm.
Joel (09:42.021)
Well, they better get some American or Middle East money if they want those kinds of stars to come. Otherwise you messy and Rinaldo are going, going elsewhere.
Chad (09:45.306)
Hahaha!
Get get get Ronaldo. He doesn't need the money anymore. Go ahead and get Ronaldo.
Joel (09:53.403)
You ever know? Have you tried? There's a Wrexham logger now. Uh, I'm seeing, I'm seeing ads for it. Uh, I'm going to have, I'm gonna have to try it, but it's apparently a, an old witches brew recipe and that they brought back. so it means it's old. It's got, you know, like, Oh, we w it's 1742. The brewery was founded. Yeah. Cause cause you appreciate old is better. Right? Mo you like, you like the old, you like the old, you like the old folks.
Chad (09:56.978)
I haven't tried it now. Yeah.
Chad (10:04.509)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Clough (10:05.688)
What does that even really mean? Like what's an old witch's brew? It's just old.
Chad (10:13.212)
Means it's delicious. History delicious.
Maureen Clough (10:14.84)
Okay, it's got some history, some weight. Yeah, old is gold, man. Old is gold. Love it. Speaking of old folks, so my shout out, my shout out, well, thanks to the American dream of living here, basically, as I was talking about with my barista this morning, like no one is basically going to be able to stop working until they drop dead, which is really cute.
Joel (10:23.405)
All right, what you got? What you got, Mo?
You
Maureen Clough (10:39.458)
But so this shout out is actually to a woman. This woman, she went to a restaurant with her son and she saw this waitress and she was there, the server, and she was probably around 81. Well, I know she's 81 because of the news article, but she's 81 years old and she's barely kind of minute. The server was and she's having a hard time with mobility. Yeah. And, know, 81 looks different, right? But 81 looks different on other people. Like I know an 81 year old who like is crazy active, but whatever. She was not doing super well.
Chad (10:53.212)
the server would be one? Holy shit!
You don't say.
Maureen Clough (11:09.26)
and this woman and her young son were in the restaurant, they noticed her, and this woman was like, God, this is so screwed up. This woman told me she's working because she can't afford to retire, and she's trying to keep up with, in her words, quote, the young whippersnappers. And I just wanna do something for this woman who's working her tail off. And so she did a TikTok about this 81-year-old server. It went viral, and they raised $300,000 for this woman so she could get the F out of the restaurant. And I'm like,
Chad (11:28.253)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Clough (11:36.11)
So simultaneously like heartwarming and wonderful because look at the power of people coming together and giving a damn about the fellow man. And then it's also like, my God, how did we get here? Like we have to do something different because this is just, this is wrong. yeah, it's nothing new.
Chad (11:50.08)
systems been broken. mean, you take a look at wages, you take a look at the tip culture, you take a look at... mean, it's broken from the top down, bottom up, whatever you want to say. But yeah, unfortunately, that just fucking sucks.
Maureen Clough (11:57.344)
all of it.
Maureen Clough (12:01.19)
Mm-hmm, totally. It totally does. Such a good one. That would be a lot of points. That's like you're winning. Mm-hmm, yep. Sure is.
Joel (12:04.773)
By the way, everyone, if you have whipper snappers on your bingo card, be sure to stamp that. think that's the first on the show. That's, ooh, whipper snapper. That is a winning formula for that.
Chad (12:07.528)
Hahaha
Chad (12:12.648)
How many points is that in Scrabble? That's the question. Huh? Yeah. Whippersnapper Scrabble. Alright Cheeseman, alright.
Joel (12:25.655)
Okay, guys, you know, we, you know, we love Canada on this show, which is a great opportunity for me to also say that our shout outs are sponsored by the good folks at Kiora. Text recruiting made easy and affordable. So my shout out goes out to Mark Carney. If you watch Fox news, you might not even know what the hell's going on. Anyway, Canada has a parliamentary system. have conservatives and liberals before Trump came in.
Chad (12:34.311)
Love them.
Chad (12:41.733)
Maureen Clough (12:45.014)
Hahaha
Joel (12:53.861)
Justin Trudeau, incredibly unpopular. He had been in for 10 years. It was kind of time for a change. And they had a cool guy named Pierre out in, think, the West part of the country. He was up by 25 points before Trump got into office. Trump gets into office, talks about the 51st state, talks about taking over, talks about Governor Trudeau, et cetera. Trudeau steps down, Mark Carney comes in. And thanks to Trump, the liberals...
Chad (12:58.28)
Yep.
Maureen Clough (13:21.838)
Okay.
Joel (13:22.427)
Got back into power, Mark Carney, Mark Carney went, that is a snort from Moe, not one of the old guys on the show. So in his speech, Mark Carney said that Trump's trying to quote, break us so America can own us, end quote. And this was a rallying cry for all Canucks who don't really relish the thought of being a 51st state.
Chad (13:24.328)
Was that a snort?
Maureen Clough (13:25.794)
Yeah, I'm dying. It's amazing.
Maureen Clough (13:33.102)
You
Joel (13:45.709)
or any part of America. So shout out to him. By the way, Mark Carney is a Harvard grad, which I've talked about quite a bit on the show is fighting the power of Trump. And by the way, Mark Carney spent very little of his life actually in Canada, most of it's in Ireland and England. anyway, Trump is so bad that he can put a Brit in power in Canada. probably messed that up for my poor Canadian friends. But Canadians love
Chad (13:51.932)
Mmm. Yeah.
Maureen Clough (13:52.216)
Mmm.
Maureen Clough (14:05.742)
You
Joel (14:14.787)
Independence from Trump and they love free stuff, Chad, as we know.
Chad (14:16.102)
Yes. And they love, and they love Chad and cheese. They love Chad and cheese. Why? Because if you go to ChadCheese.com slash free, could perspectively win, get ready kids, bourbon barrel aged syrup from Kiura from yes, the great white North from Kiura.
Maureen Clough (14:18.199)
You
Joel (14:20.015)
Hell yeah, they do.
Joel (14:31.45)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Clough (14:32.238)
You
Chad (14:35.15)
Whiskey, a cock in both hands, chicken cock possibly. Whiskey, two bottles, two from Van Hack, our friends up north at Van Hack. Then we've got craft beer from our friends, the job data geeks over Aspen Tech Labs. More about those guys later. T-shirts from Aaron App, that's Aaron App. And if it's your birthday, another Canuck company.
Maureen Clough (14:42.844)
boy.
Joel (14:56.251)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (15:04.101)
You can win rum from plum. Just go to Chadcheese.com slash free.
Ooh, I love Canada.
Joel (15:13.423)
That's right, some listener. Little sound bite, you like the plums, huh? Yeah. And Plum loves it too. They didn't even come up with that. We did. So...
Maureen Clough (15:13.762)
I think that's
Maureen Clough (15:21.388)
I bet.
Chad (15:23.346)
Yeah. Joel plays that before, before he goes to bed every night.
Joel (15:28.357)
What do you know about what I do before bed every night? I'm a little scared about that comment. Anyway, celebrating another trip around the sun, our listeners, Annie Jarvis, Glen Hill, Garvich Sharma, Jerry Frank, Peter Sharipa, Shana Berthold, Keegan Osepich, Stefan Jean, Sarah Addison, Bennett Sung, Robert Rayner, Alfonso Zamora, Herb Drew,
Chad (15:31.848)
Christine, Christine told me.
Maureen Clough (15:34.67)
He's watching you.
Joel (15:55.739)
Come on Eileen Kowalski, Joshua Skloot, Lou Adler, Joe Shaker. We'll get to travel here in a second and our very own JT O'Donnell celebrate a birthday. Happy birthday everybody, happy birthday.
Chad (16:02.312)
There we go.
Maureen Clough (16:06.99)
Aww. Woohoo!
Chad (16:07.016)
There we go.
Well, what a great segue. Joe shaker birthday and shaker recruitment marketing. What do they do? They're our travel sponsors, kids. That's right. We're going to unleash next week coming up May 6th through the eighth, where we're going to be in Vegas on Wednesday, the seventh, uh, are going to be spending a little time in the suite at the Cosmo filming a new sessions season with our friends over at smart recruiters. Uh, then that night we're going to do a film rap VIP party. Uh, all you have to do is go out to
Joel (16:14.139)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (16:39.784)
LinkedIn, look at Joel's LinkedIn profile mine and we'll have the details there. Um, but dude, there ain't no party like a Cosmo sessions, wrap party. Uh, and then we're going to be hosting two talks in the gem booth. That's J E J M gem booth on Wednesday, the seventh at 3 30 PM and then Thursday morning at 10 30 Vegas time. If you come to unleash, we're to be there.
Maureen Clough (16:50.286)
You
Joel (16:57.135)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (17:09.436)
Find us whether we're drinking. Well, we're going to be drinking. We'll see you. We'll see you there.
Joel (17:13.945)
Mo, are you too young to remember the Jim animated cartoon from the 80s featuring a, I don't know, socialite named Jim? Yeah, you are, okay.
Chad (17:19.016)
Aww.
Maureen Clough (17:20.589)
Yes.
I am, apologies.
Chad (17:23.848)
But the thing is though, we also have video because we saw that apparently some of the concierge services and the valet services are not gonna be readily available in Vegas. Can you play that? Beautiful bean footage.
Maureen Clough (17:38.766)
It's a shame.
Joel (17:44.261)
What's going on in Vegas? Holy shit.
Chad (18:35.93)
Ouch. Yeah. So, I mean, and again, a lot of times media can like overplay some of this stuff. They said occupancy rates are like around 82%. So, it still feels kind of full, but I mean, in Vegas, when you're used to being popping at the seams right now, Europeans aren't coming over, Canadians. You know where the Canadians are going? Have you seen the reports on this? They're going to Mexico, which means...
Maureen Clough (18:36.29)
Good times. Yeah, let me know.
Joel (18:37.243)
We'll be there. We'll see it for ourselves.
Joel (18:54.501)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (18:57.925)
Canadians aren't coming.
Maureen Clough (18:57.93)
Mm-mm. not coming.
Chad (19:05.308)
The US is literally flyover country. Literally, the entire US, flyover country.
Maureen Clough (19:06.47)
man, we so deserve that. We so deserve that. my gosh. Wow. That's wild. That's wild. I mean...
Joel (19:15.939)
I got nothing. I got nothing. Let's just get to topics.
Chad (19:19.688)
Please save me with some good topics.
Maureen Clough (19:23.244)
Hmm.
Joel (19:23.323)
we got some more, more goodness, Chad. That's right. your, weekly weekly dose of, of deal and rippling the feud keeps escalating a deal officially agreed to be served legal papers in Ripley's lawsuit deal backed by Andreessen Horowitz. Maybe you've heard of them who has a $3 billion stake in the company counter sued, alleging defamation by Ripley's CEO, but wait, there's more.
Chad (19:28.114)
Bozo. Bozo?
Maureen Clough (19:30.242)
Bozo, definitely.
gift that keeps on giving.
Joel (19:53.243)
Crypto startup Toku claims deal was part of a scheme that exploited its private information and tried to place spies among its ranks of employees. I don't know if this is going to get any crazier, but I hope that it does because it's a lot of fun to talk about the corporate spy drama continues. Chad, your thoughts.
Chad (20:16.338)
So the defamation case that Deal is actually throwing at Rippling, I think is interesting. They have like little pieces, parts of emails that they say are defamation. Parker Congrad was asked for a comment and said, quote, Deal did not directly refute Rippling's central claim, right? And he's focusing on the central claim that it paid employees to steal Rippling trade secrets, end quote.
Maureen Clough (20:37.646)
You
Chad (20:46.284)
the Russian sanctions is also another piece on this. mean, there's just so much smoke that's happening. It's in, and at first as, as listeners, you know, when rippling first came up that with this, we're like, come on guys, this is bullshit. And then we started getting evidence. Then we got Keith O'Brien giving us under testimony affidavits, right? They, had affidavits where we could read down through what the hell's going on. And unfortunately we live in a time.
Joel (20:52.866)
huh.
Maureen Clough (21:01.142)
You
Joel (21:03.867)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Clough (21:06.712)
He's a man.
Chad (21:15.122)
where accusation without evidence is happening all over the fucking place. Right? And it's literally just trying to change public opinion. That's where we're living today. So show me the evidence deal. You say there's, there's defamation. You say there's Russian sanctions. Also, what was the other company's name? the cryptocurrency company. Yeah. Cause I trust them. evidence.
Joel (21:19.822)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Clough (21:20.814)
Goddamn true.
Maureen Clough (21:26.062)
you
Joel (21:32.325)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Clough (21:39.628)
Hehehehehe
Chad (21:41.734)
Release the fucking evidence. If you want to put this out in public, then do it. Do it like, like, I mean, rippling didn't really do it because it was, it was, an official affidavit, but get that shit done so we can all take a look at it and you can do it in court.
Joel (21:54.021)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (21:59.567)
Go deep. Mo?
Maureen Clough (22:03.33)
God, I'm sorry, you're killing me. Yeah, I mean, I found the whole thing pretty, I mean, this thing is just like unbelievable. I truly cannot wait to watch this on screen. It's gonna happen for sure. But I mean, to me, it's like, like you said, Chad, the evidence sounds pretty credible. Like you said, this guy was testifying in court under affidavit, like this is not like a nothing thing that he just spun up. So I would love to see something that's irrefutable that suggests that this was all just like one big ploy against them.
I doubt we're gonna see that. It sounds pretty legit to me, but it did make me crack up. And I also saw a past video on YouTube that was about like the genius of the bozo at the head of Delm, Deal, not Delm, what's Delm? Who am I? At the head of Deal. And I'm like, this guy doesn't seem so smart to me. So we'll see what happens. But yeah, it's just, it's hilarious. And people can just throw accusations out there like left, right, and center and like.
At least give us something to back it up. I totally agree with you. It's so stupid.
Joel (23:03.739)
All right, all right kids gather around the bonfire.
Maureen Clough (23:08.654)
Aww.
Joel (23:09.455)
That's right. That's right. We, never get out of high school. Everybody let's, let's, let's take a trip down memory lane. Shall we 2013 Xenefits Xenefits co-founded by our friend Parker Conrad got millions in investment from guess who? Andresen Horowitz. That's right. So when Buzzfeed exposed Xenefits for all its bullshit and it's sex in this stairwell, stories, Conrad was pushed
Maureen Clough (23:13.664)
Mm-mm. We don't. So true.
Maureen Clough (23:19.726)
You
Chad (23:26.392)
Andreessen Horowitz
Maureen Clough (23:26.922)
Andreessen.
Maureen Clough (23:37.961)
my God, forgot about that.
Joel (23:38.693)
Conrad was pushed out. David Sachs, if you listen to the All In podcast, David Sachs was the COO of Zenefits at the time. He was moved to CEO. Guess what David Sachs current title is? He's Trump's crypto czar. You mentioned, you mentioned Tycoo, the crypto company. I don't know if there's a connection.
Maureen Clough (23:41.784)
Woof, man.
Chad (23:45.064)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (23:49.628)
Big surprise.
Maureen Clough (23:50.892)
Hmm.
Chad (23:57.938)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Clough (24:02.71)
You
Joel (24:05.999)
But it sounds kind of fishy, fishy to me. Anyway, Xenefits goes to hell. Conrad launches Rippling, which let's be honest is a poke in the eye of Andreessen Horowitz. I'm sure. Cause they backed him over at Xenefits. So they go to deal and they go deal. Fuck Rippling. We're on your team. They dropped $3 billion on deal.
Maureen Clough (24:07.97)
That does. Ooh.
Maureen Clough (24:22.584)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Clough (24:30.048)
Ugh.
Joel (24:34.499)
And now this shit happens. Not 3 billion. Maybe it's 3 billion. Anyway, it's a lot of money. Google it. now his, I don't, I don't get all the facts in my history lessons. Everybody. I like to, to, empower you to, find your own stuff. But anyway, so now deals in trouble and at risk of looking like a real shit. And so,
Chad (24:40.2)
300 million? No, yeah, they don't have 3 billion in. Yeah.
Maureen Clough (24:42.316)
No, it's worth it, yeah.
Chad (24:45.528)
Google it. Making work for our listeners. That's awesome.
Maureen Clough (24:49.282)
I love it. You guys, you guys do some shit.
Chad (24:56.025)
yeah.
Joel (25:04.675)
Andreessen Horowitz are like, my God, we got to save our investment. We can't get beat by Rippling. So now this has become our lawyers at Andreessen Horowitz and Deal versus the lawyers at Rippling. I'm sure they all know each other and have lunch at that laundromat, French laundromat or whatever it is in the Silicon Valley. Mo gets that reference. She gets the French laundromat because that's where she, that's where she.
Chad (25:18.716)
Guarantee it.
Maureen Clough (25:24.25)
French laundromat, I think we need to call it. Oh, well, how could we forget? Remember Gavin Newsom and like his people? Oh yeah, I go there all the time, all the time. It's like my McDonald's.
Joel (25:32.891)
So, so now, so now this is becoming Godzilla versus King Kong and lucky us with a podcast. get to talk about this never ending high school drama about everyone being pissed at each other and getting, getting even through legal, legal means and just counter suing and eventually probably going to the French laundromat to like decide who's getting what and how much, uh, the shit show continues in 2025 and I'm here for it, Chad.
Chad (25:50.108)
Yeah.
Maureen Clough (25:50.296)
So fun.
Joel (26:02.061)
I'm here for it.
Chad (26:03.034)
I, everybody's here for it. Like I said, this, this has never happened in our space. Something this size. We've got spy, we've got bumbling Mr. Bean spies. We've got, mean, we got Bozo going to Dubai trying to get Mr. Bean to come with him. I mean, it's just like, this is, wow, this is amazing. But again, evidence kids, give us the evidence.
Maureen Clough (26:07.758)
That's insane.
Maureen Clough (26:13.55)
That's insane.
Joel (26:17.083)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Clough (26:25.784)
Yeah, I guess we have to see that. my God. Yeah, we have due process here. Hello?
Chad (26:28.754)
Can't, can't do it.
Chad (26:35.09)
Be careful.
Joel (26:38.085)
Be careful with all of that. All right. That is our history lesson for the day kids. Let's go to our next story. Power to the people. Yeah, not so much. this week Uber raised it's in office requirement to three days, clawing back remote workers, not to be outdone. Google is requiring remote workers to return to the office three days a week as well. They have until June to return and if they don't comply, well, they'll be fired.
Maureen Clough (26:38.158)
Allegedly.
Joel (27:05.774)
Microsoft is laying off nearly 300 people on the heels of eliminating quote low performers and quote. did you see Intel just laid off 22,000 workers, roughly 20 % of its head count cats and dogs living together mass hysteria. Mo, what are your thoughts on all the RTO layoff news?
Maureen Clough (27:24.014)
Dude, I mean, thank you for calling it RTO layoff, because that's exactly what it is. It's like, it's a forced function. They know that not enough people are going to come back to the office. They're doing it on purpose so they can save on costs. We all know what this is. It's going to impact certain people more than others. We all know that. They know that. They're counting on it. They don't give a shit. It is infuriating to see this happen again and again and again. And when I talk to people who are currently employed within any of those companies or any big tech companies,
Chad (27:39.442)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. No.
Maureen Clough (27:51.51)
It's like the Lord of the Flies internally. Like everyone is throwing one another under the bus. They're trying to save their job by any means necessary. They're not fucking thinking about the customer. They're not thinking about what's right for the company. They're trying to save their own butts, right? And who could blame them? And so these companies are dealing themselves this situation where they don't have people in place at the company who are thinking about what the company wants them to think about. They're trying to save themselves.
So it just creates this like super toxic horrendous environment that it just makes me so angry because it doesn't have to be like this. Like I don't understand why they can't find a different path, a better path and why we can't have more humanity in the workplace. Cause we are freaking humans at the end of the day. We are not robots and I know they'd rather replace us with them and some of them are. But one thing that did not get picked up in any of that also is how tough tech is right now for a specific generation. And that's Gen Z.
So Gen Z is usually, mean, tech is all about the youth, right? They love them, they think they're the best hires. They all die in this hill. I hate that tech seems to want to not hire or not keep any of the older workers so that they can then hire only younger workers and exploit them. Hate that. But now they're deciding that they would actually prefer to hire robots instead of young people. So entry level jobs are going out.
Chad (28:51.624)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Maureen Clough (29:10.242)
by the white side. There's not an ability for Gen Z to get some of those early career experiences. There's no mentorship because again, everyone's covering their own ass. They're not thinking about bringing someone along and teaching them the tools of the trade. You've got AI outsourcing. You've got a lack of skills and training in these organizations. It's really like good luck. If you get this job sink or swim. by the way, you got to be using AI and you got to tell us how you used it and if it worked or not because we don't have a training program and we're just like fly by seat of our pants type of operation. But this is
Joel (29:15.099)
you
Maureen Clough (29:40.242)
so shitty for everyone of all ages. And I just feel absolutely horrible for anyone who's just mixed up in this. And I can, I know that the pendulum will swing back at some point and it will be more and of an employees market. I just, no one forget that this happened. Like these companies are showing you exactly who they are right now with how they're treating their workforce. Do not forget it. And if you're a customer who can make a choice, don't forget this either. See what they're doing to their people and go elsewhere. So.
Joel (30:09.177)
Vote with your dollars.
Maureen Clough (30:09.666)
That was my.
So infuriating.
Chad (30:13.618)
So this is the short-term mindset that we've put ourselves into. We used to focus on community, growing the community, not just being a part and giving back to the community, but that's where our talent's at, right? And being able to build talent pipelines through developing, you know, at the high school age, middle school, high school, community college, you know, what have you, that is all out the door. It is all about this quarter, dollars and cents, right?
Maureen Clough (30:42.2)
true.
Chad (30:43.152)
So short-term mindset in that pain that we're hearing about all over the place. people are going to remember that people are going to remember that shit. if you're at Microsoft, take the 16 week severance, get the fuck out of there. They're showing, they are showing who they are. They're showing who they are. Google Uber, they're boiling the RTO frog. And also there's the layoff pieces that are in there, but
Maureen Clough (30:55.554)
I'd get the hell out. No one ever comes back from a pip. Are you kidding me? Like, get out.
Maureen Clough (31:06.563)
Yep.
Chad (31:10.088)
I know we talk a lot about the big names like Google, JP Morgan, Chase, Uber, and many others who are pushing RTO, but Aspen Tech Labs, that's right, our friends over at Aspen Tech Labs, they dropped the following information last week on the job board doctor. Quote, remote jobs continue their strong trajectory, increasing 27.5 % compared to Q1 2024. Insurance information tech, IT.
accounting sectors are leading this trend underscoring the persistent shift towards flexible and remote working arrangement end quotes. So the big names are forcing RTO. Many of the others are vying for the same talent echoing Spotify as you're an adult work from wherever you like. So yes, the headlines make it feel like everybody is moving back to the office, but the numbers say it ain't so Joe.
Maureen Clough (32:05.069)
When-
Maureen Clough (32:10.35)
I was not expecting that one.
Joel (32:10.521)
Well, we interrupted you. had something to say. Go for it.
Chad (32:14.184)
What you gonna say?
Maureen Clough (32:15.746)
I may have lost my train of thought, because that just really was quite jarring.
Joel (32:17.605)
Well, I'll talk and if you, if you remember, just, chime in. Okay. a few weeks ago, it was last week, LinkedIn invested in an office space, which I said at the time, well, if, anyone has remote work job listing information and trends on remote jobs being posted, it's LinkedIn. So to make that investment, they must know something about the future of remote work that we don't. this feels like.
Maureen Clough (32:25.516)
Amazing.
Maureen Clough (32:30.35)
Mmm.
Maureen Clough (32:44.226)
Mm.
Joel (32:47.771)
A world that is dividing between tech and those that aren't in tech. And if you're in tech, going back to the office, having people leave, they don't want to go back to the office and less head count is a good thing. And if you can do it by avoiding the layoff headline, that's a great thing because saying we're going back to the office and losing 5 % of your workforce is a lot better than saying we're firing 5 % of our workforce. Microsoft as of this writing, uh, Meta and Microsoft.
Maureen Clough (33:10.766)
Exactly. That's precisely right. It's a PR play.
Joel (33:17.295)
both reported quarterly earnings. Meta jumped 6 % on an earnings beat, citing some advertising resilience. Microsoft also blowout quarter jumped 9%. So these tech companies have incentive to go back to the office if nothing else, because they can eliminate headcount and increase earnings. Microsoft said in their report that 30 % of all code written now is AI generated.
That's a lot of developers that aren't going to have a job at Microsoft. And it's early, it's early. And to Mo's point, how many of those entry level jobs that Microsoft used to bring in people are not going to be brought in anymore and mentor those folks. The other side of it is that it's a softening labor market. There are fewer opportunities for better paying jobs. People used to be able to jump ship and get a 20, 25 % raise in a new position.
Chad (33:46.79)
And it's early, and it's early.
Maureen Clough (33:48.34)
Mm-hmm. It's only gonna go up.
Maureen Clough (34:00.482)
man.
Maureen Clough (34:05.304)
Yep.
Maureen Clough (34:11.496)
yeah.
Joel (34:11.641)
Those days are gone. So you have power back to the employers, which means get your ass back to work. We're laying people off, but not saying we're laying people off. and it's, this is a continuing trend that we're going to see. mean, I, I'm, I'm, I'm inspired by Chad and it's in Spotify and there are those organizations, but I fear like this is going to trickle down to smaller businesses that say, if Microsoft and everyone else big that I know uses does this.
Maureen Clough (34:17.429)
Mm-hmm. Do as I say.
Maureen Clough (34:24.802)
Yeah.
Joel (34:39.247)
Then I should be doing it too. They just don't have the shareholders, the boards that are sort of pushing them into that direction.
Maureen Clough (34:47.126)
It can also be, yeah, I was gonna say, yeah, they can compete. Yeah. no, what I was gonna say is I think that they're actually gonna double down on offering things that people actually want because they need to compete. They probably don't have as much money to throw at these people as these bigger players. So they're gonna be like, hey, you know what? You can work from home a couple days a week or all the time, whatever. And they get expansive access to more talent. it just...
Chad (34:47.27)
I disagree. I think that's how they get the good talent is because yeah, exactly. Go ahead, Mo.
Maureen Clough (35:10.542)
I mean, Zillow is doubling down on their remote first policy for that reason. They've had like 4X the applications and talent available to them because they are a fully remote organization and they optimize for that. And so it's just, I think it's kind of an own goal for a of these companies because they're going to see people leave. And by the way, like you said, people are not able to earn what they used to be able to earn at these corporate jobs, even at these big players. I have people reaching out to me saying, you know, first of all, I can't get a freaking job interview. And you know, five years ago I did all the time, but when they actually look at the job,
Chad (35:30.877)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Clough (35:39.768)
that they're interested in, the range of pay is like sub what they made in 2021. So like you said, this market is changing, the demand is changing, it's softening, and so there are gonna be some implications. So people are gonna be able to win, other companies are gonna be able to win on benefits and making accommodations for people that bigger companies apparently refuse to do.
Chad (35:45.085)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (35:59.237)
I mean, we also know that the number of remote jobs being posted is decreasing quite a bit. unless they're reframing them as different kinds of opportunities, we do know that there's a lack.
Chad (36:09.01)
You're talking about at those companies or overall?
Joel (36:12.185)
Jobs being posted as remote jobs is decreasing. I know indeed.
Chad (36:16.488)
So remote jobs continue their strong growth trajectory increasing by 27.5 compared to Q1 of 2024. That's Aspen Tech data and they're the data kid. So what you're reading, I don't know, to take a look at the actual data source, could be companies, specific segment or cohort of companies, but the actual data in Aspen Tech goes out and they look at
Joel (36:25.701)
that. Okay.
Chad (36:45.32)
corporate career sites, top down, scrape those sites, and that's where they get their job data. So that's 27.5 % growth.
Maureen Clough (36:53.122)
Your study was sponsored by commercial real estate probably. Let's be honest. We can all cherry pick the data, right? We can find the survey.
Joel (36:57.979)
Mine was, mine was, well, mine was, mine was in D-Day. This is from October of 24. The share of job postings, advertising, remote or hybrid work options fell from a high of 10.4 in February of 2022 to 7.8 % as of October, 2024. So a little bit of.
Maureen Clough (37:04.715)
Indeed.
Chad (37:14.898)
And that's a bad index because you have to pay to get on there. And also they don't go after all the jobs like Aspen Tech does. So you're looking at subsets of data versus again, it's like LinkUp, which we'll talk about here soon, the same kind of thing, right? They're looking at the broader expanse of job data where Indeed is more focused on really what they're getting paid for.
Joel (37:31.183)
Mm-hmm.
Joel (37:40.217)
Yeah. Fair enough. Fair enough. We'll be right back.
Maureen Clough (37:43.586)
Make sense.
Joel (37:51.355)
All right, gang, follow this one under Canary in the coal mine. Uh, United parcel service, also known as UPS announced it will lay off 20,000 workers, about 4 % of its 490,000 strong global workforce and close 73 facilities by June of 2025, aiming to save $3.5 billion. The cuts part of a network reconfiguration plan STEM.
from a strategic reduction in Amazon shipments, which are down 50 % projected through 2026, and economic uncertainty from Trump's tariffs. It's worth noting the Teamsters Union representing 330,000 of the UPS workers warned of a fierce fight if the company violates its contract to create 30,000 jobs in light of the news. Chad, your thoughts.
Chad (38:46.14)
Yeah, UPS, I think the whole UPS Amazon relationship started out really well for UPS and it gone into the shitter. So I don't think they want those, they don't want those packages or that contract anymore because it's starting to become a loss for them. And I believe this does have to do with a tariff anchor around the economy's neck. mean, what should we expect at this point? But, but.
UPS is also shutting down facilities while opening brand spanking new robot clad ones. And this is an evolution that we've talked about over the years. For example, working in an Amazon or UPS warehouse is backbreaking work. Amazon actually blew through entire population of workers because the work was hard and the expectations were unreal. UPS leans heavily into the working with unions.
which is good because unions won't allow that type of Amazon treatment. And UPS doesn't want to burn through total workforce like Amazon has in some cases. Now that means less backbreaking jobs, but then creates new segments of jobs for people skilling up to maintain the logistics slash robotic machine. So yes, I see where the economy.
with less ships coming in from China will need less dock workers, less conductors on trains carrying product, less over the road truck drivers and less last mile UPS warehouse and delivery workers. But this might be the perfect time to transition and hopefully start training some of those laid off workers as robotic mechanics and also more of the over the road drivers for when this tariff lunacy is hopefully over. So
Positive I see the optimistic side on this looking for optimism and and seeing that you know UPS again working with unions It's an entirely different kind of like scope than what you'll see with with with an Amazon
Joel (40:41.626)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Clough (40:42.808)
Thank you.
Maureen Clough (40:55.106)
Dude, thanks for that little injection of hope. We need some silver linings, man. Thank you. I was gonna be like, hey, next time I do the show, can we get some happy news up in the mix, please? So you don't have to call me Debbie Downer. my gosh. Okay, yeah, I like that. I like that. So hopefully there will be some upside to this really shitty news. So yeah.
Chad (40:57.48)
Here for you. Here for you.
Chad (41:02.362)
You
Maureen Clough (41:13.848)
But yeah, mean, now that I can't get $30 because I'm not going to have any money and they're not shipping them in, like, of course that's going to have a cascading effect, like your guest said, right? The ripple effect and the domino effect of all of these decisions. And it just extends so far out into Main Street and into our communities. And so we'll see that.
Chad (41:30.926)
Get your kids a sharp stick as Joel Cheeseman would say.
Joel (41:31.131)
Where's here's sharp stick and yeah. so a little, a little, comic relief, maybe Mo I found this video on tech talk, which is dripping with sarcasm, but there's some truth behind it.
Maureen Clough (41:32.704)
Yeah, yeah, just.
Joel (42:51.343)
No, of course not. Anyways, I thought you'd enjoy that.
Maureen Clough (42:52.398)
That's so good. That's so good. Thank you.
Chad (42:56.242)
should be a spokesperson for the Trump administration.
Joel (42:58.395)
She's good. So I looked back in history because I was curious. The last time UPS laid off 4 % of its workforce, any guesses, any guesses, any guesses? 2008 was the last time they made financial, the great recession. So this is serious business. we know some of the people at UPS and do believe, I'm sure, that they will, just like in 2008,
Maureen Clough (43:01.646)
You
Chad (43:09.736)
COVID.
financial, wow.
Maureen Clough (43:12.494)
Mmm, that's a telling time. boy.
Joel (43:26.009)
repurpose, refocus, do what's right by the workers. think that's a huge part of what UPS does. So while I do agree, like this is a canary in the coal mine. stuff like these, again, these guys see the data, they see what's coming in, what's, what's coming down the pike. When you see Jamie Dymans saying that a recession is likely, it's, it would behoove you not to take some of that data and advice and not.
you know, prepare for it. And I think that's what UPS is doing. hopefully to Chad's point, the jobs that do come back will be higher level jobs, automation specific new job titles. Totally. So, it's, it's, it's gonna be painful guys. It's going to be two dollars instead of 30 for awhile. but just like our friend there at target, get used, maybe get used to it, but will we come out better? I sure as hell hope so. I sure as hell hope so. Also, I it was funny.
Maureen Clough (44:09.688)
That's what they're telling us about AI. It's gonna be better jobs. it's so tough.
Chad (44:12.71)
Mm.
Joel (44:25.755)
You probably saw Amazon was coming out with the tariff addition, additional costs from tariffs. And then the Trump administration said, this is a hostile, hostile move, which is.
Maureen Clough (44:29.89)
Yes.
Chad (44:34.524)
was hostile.
Maureen Clough (44:35.811)
bent the knee.
Chad (44:41.458)
Transparency is hostile.
Maureen Clough (44:42.432)
Yeah, exactly.
Joel (44:42.563)
I'm- well-
Again, this guy just doing stuff that's unconventional. I don't remember a president basically dictating what businesses could do at this level. There was some commentary about, if lower price goods go up, let's call it 50%, then they'll be more equal to stuff that's made in America. Someone said, well,
Chad (44:55.24)
because we've never had a dictator before.
Maureen Clough (44:55.63)
Mmm. Yeah, I was like, mmm.
Joel (45:13.091)
Why wouldn't America come and just raise the price because all the cheap shit is now more expensive. And Trump said something like, well, if they do that, you know, they better not do that. We're watching them, et cetera. It's like free market, this stuff, like it's just kind of sad that, that the white house feels like they need to attack someone like Amazon. A business from putting like, Hey, here's the cost, but with tariffs, here's the cost that you're going to be paying. and basis basis, bend it over bent over.
Chad (45:37.0)
transparency. Yeah, that's all it is.
Joel (45:41.793)
And it's taking it and not, it's just, it's just a sad, it's just, it's just unfortunate.
Maureen Clough (45:42.446)
Immediately. It's crazy.
Chad (45:46.266)
It's the fellatio 2025 baby. Admit it. That's this administration.
Maureen Clough (45:49.858)
Yeah, that's right. That's the t-shirt you wanted that we were like, We're like, maybe not, Chad.
Joel (45:54.075)
Felatio 2025, yeah. That sounds like a great one to have on stage at the next SHER meeting. Guys, if you like what you're listening to, if you love the show, hate it, whatever, leave us a review, subscribe, go check us out on YouTube. We are everywhere if you haven't noticed. And if you're not plugged in, please do so. We'll be right back.
Chad (45:55.196)
Yeah.
Maureen Clough (46:07.79)
You
Maureen Clough (46:12.046)
You
Joel (46:19.995)
Winter is coming. Actually, it's just ending here in the Midwest, but it is coming. And a post entitled, quote, winter is coming, but not quite yet. End quote. Our friend Toby Dayton, you know him as the Sasquatch of statistics warns of an economic slowdown signaled by a weak jobs report. He predicts potential stagflation in 2025 with inflation at 3.2 % and unemployment possibly hitting as high as 5%. The silver lining.
Maureen Clough (46:25.198)
you
Joel (46:48.731)
Toby's firm is forecasting a net gain of 211,000 jobs in April above the 130,000 estimated. And from our friends at Aspen Tech Labs, US job postings stalled in February, showing zero month over month growth and a 3.5 % year over year decline, signaling a cautious hiring environment. Job creation dropped 10 % from January.
And 9.8 % from February in 2024 reflecting a slowdown. Who says this isn't a feel good podcast, Chad. What are your takes on all these numbers?
Maureen Clough (47:22.701)
You
Chad (47:27.206)
I'm going positive because if I don't, I wouldn't be Euro Chad. I'm almost out of here. Okay. So take a look at the, the, the, the, the linkups, this week in jobs data update says daily active job descriptions featuring the term, the term agentic have spiked from virtually zero to 2000 plus in just over two years. then Aspen tech labs, yep. Those kids again, Aspen tech lab shows that in Q1.
Joel (47:33.209)
EuroChat is coming.
Maureen Clough (47:33.518)
That's not fair. That's cheating.
Chad (47:57.128)
AI related job positions increased 25.2 % compared to Q1 of 2024. So AI roles are increasingly strategic and command high compensation. Hear that? That's more money kids. With median annual salaries reaching about $155,000, $156,000. Not too shabby. Not too shabby. So good on growth, good on evolution. Now we have to do is get trained up for it.
Maureen Clough (48:26.136)
So the A, another good one. Okay, maybe that one's my favorite. But okay, so, but the AI related roles that you mentioned that are getting upticked right there, does that mean like they're actually functionally working on AI solutions there or they just are using AI at the company? Do you know, there a date on that?
Chad (48:32.391)
You
Chad (48:46.94)
No, they're AI solutions, they're AI related roles. So they're not just using, yeah. Now, linkups, theirs was actually focused on the term in the job description being agentic. So that was more kind of a parallel where Aspentech Labs is focused on specifically AI related jobs. Good question.
Maureen Clough (48:50.486)
Okay. They're not just like average person just using, all right, yeah. Cause now everybody has to do that at their jobs.
Maureen Clough (49:12.92)
Okay, okay. Yeah, I still, I'm a little concerned about the fact that we all are being told we have to use AI at our corporate jobs now and that we have to prove that we don't need to hire anybody else. I mean, I guess I shouldn't be surprised by that, but Quiet Part Out Loud is happening more and more. But yeah, it still strikes me as crazy that there doesn't seem to be any sort of skills-based training on this. They're just like letting people fly with what I would imagine is pretty sensitive data internally at their companies on these platforms. And they're just like, hey,
Chad (49:23.62)
Yeah
Maureen Clough (49:42.094)
use it and let us know what happens. Genie's out of the bottle, I guess. I don't know. It's kind of a wild ride. And I wonder where we're going to land. I guess it's good that more high paying jobs are coming. I also hope that people who are over 50 can access them, since there's a crazy bias that was released in a recent report by Generation.
and done with Google.org about how anything that touches AI at all as a role, you're like 60 % less likely to consider someone over 60 for that job. So that sucks since I know I was like, yeah, like exactly. You better be in the middle and you better somehow stay there. Yeah, it's a wild time. It's a wild time. I know I probably should.
Chad (50:13.938)
Sounds like we're screwed on the bottom with Gen Z and we're screwed at the top. I mean, you better be in the middle.
Joel (50:24.455)
You better start a podcast or some shit. If you're like, better just, you better just become an influencer, start a podcast, something that's where the world is going. Who's the CEO that was like, if you want me to hire, you have to prove that we can't AI the job. Okay. So, for sure.
Chad (50:26.576)
It gets late early. That's all I gotta say. It gets late early.
Maureen Clough (50:33.995)
God.
Maureen Clough (50:39.842)
That was Shopify. That was Shopify. I'm sure in others that just haven't leaked, Like, or people who like say the quiet part out loud are just, I'm surprised that people are just out there saying it, but I'm sure it's happening behind the scenes in cloaked language all the time.
Joel (50:52.527)
My fear is that we haven't even begun the job loss, the inflation, the empty shelves. When there's run on toilet paper, like Katie bar the door, shit's going to hit the fan. Canada sort of set the stage of you can stand up to America. Our little 40 million person country can stand up and vote accordingly.
Maureen Clough (50:59.042)
Right.
Chad (51:01.084)
We have it.
Chad (51:08.028)
No pun intended.
Maureen Clough (51:09.23)
Dude. gross.
Joel (51:22.363)
and fight this guy. And I feel like lot of other countries will be empowered to say like, not necessarily the emperor has no clothes, but maybe, you know, it's a red tie and a really ugly blue suit instead of you know, emperor's gown. But so I question, know, so I don't think China is backing down. I think this is really focused on China. I don't think they're going to back down. I think this is a, like almost a war of wills. And I question whether America
Maureen Clough (51:32.494)
I love it, the fashion critique. That was funny.
Chad (51:37.404)
And a back tattoo.
Joel (51:52.293)
can suck it up and deal with it because this is not, this is not the generation of our grandparents and great, great grandparents, depending on your age. Look in a year and a year and whatever change, there's going to be another election. and if shit is bad, the Dems will take the house and then we'll be in court again and impeachment and she'll be sucky. China doesn't have that problem. Like there is no reelection. There is no like cycle that they can shit. So
Chad (51:54.492)
We can't handle pain.
Maureen Clough (51:56.3)
Mm-mm, we're not doing well.
Joel (52:20.557)
I question America's ability to stick this out. And whereas a company like Apple can say, okay, we're going to pivot extreme to India. Companies like small businesses that we focused on, like don't have that luxury. So the stress on our system is going to be immense. And I, I question whether or not we can, we can play the long game. Unlike.
Maureen Clough (52:24.536)
Good point.
Maureen Clough (52:40.814)
So true.
Joel (52:46.821)
Dad jokes, which I can play the long game all day, baby. I can go all day.
Chad (52:51.752)
Oh we know, oh we know.
Maureen Clough (52:52.782)
Bring us home, baby.
Joel (52:54.299)
If a man and a woman need a marriage license to get married, what do two lesbians need? If a man and a woman need a marriage license to get married, what do two lesbians need?
Chad (53:08.242)
Did you buy a lesbian joke book? Because it seems to be like scaling that way for some reason. I'm sorry, go ahead, go ahead.
Joel (53:16.003)
A Liquor License.
Maureen Clough (53:16.206)
I got nothing.
Maureen Clough (53:21.101)
boy. Okay. my God, bye.
Chad (53:22.14)
We out.
Joel (53:22.765)
We out!
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