Hell Hath No Fury

Hell hath no fury like a bunch of salespeople screwed over by a greedy company, which is why CareerBuilder's back in court. Oh, CareerBuilder, you're the gift that just keeps on giving.

In addition to this news, the boys cover:

- Bullhorn's new bullshit

- McDonald's & Olivia's catfish move

- LinkedIn's hashtag fetish

- and Facebook's aversion to innovation and how it totally screws up their recruiting efforts.

The upcoming holiday season obviously has Chad & Cheese feeling all warm and fuzzy. Enjoy and show Sovren, Canvas, and JobAdx - those are our sponsors - lots of love.


Disability Solutions connects jobseekers with disabilities with employers who value diversity and inclusion.

James Ellis: Hey, this is James Ellis from The Talent Cast podcasting. You're listening to The Chad and Cheese Podcast, which I guess is your choice.

Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR'smost dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where hurts complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Bottle up boys and girls

Joel: AWE YEAH, it's a rare, very rare late night episode of the chat. Okay.

Joel: Chad & Cheese Podcast. I'm feeling kind of squirrely. So break out the smoking jackets and pour yourself a cognac. I'm your cohost Joel, Don Draper, Cheeseman and I'm Chad. Let's hurry the fuck up. There's football on. So wash on this week. Show LinkedIn hashes out at companies. At least one part of bullhorns new market place is bullshit and CareerBuilder is back in court while the fire is warm and the Browns are on tonight. Kids, we'll be right back after this word from Canvas.

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Joel: Shout out to the Browns who are bound to kick the Steelers ass tonight. I probably just jinxed it. Other shout outs, a shout out to Recruitcon. Just got back from Nashville earlier today. Spoke on SEO for Google for jobs. I was a good time. Nashville's always fun. Nash, Vegas and the house. Shout out to Recruitcon. Recruitcon that Julie's still down there. Yes, she's on. She's got a double billing on that bitch. Good for now. You warmed them up. That's awesome. A big, big shout out that you're not, you're talking about the crowd. Obviously.

Chad: We're close, but not that close. Tengai wins a Nora, which is a national online recruitment recruiting board. Yeah. Anyway, way to go. Tengai.

Joel: Yeah. If they can't win an innovative award, they can't

win anything. Cause that fucking thing is at least innovative. Yeah.

Chad: The only one in the world, a Skill Scout, big props to Skill Scout. So we, we've been looking for an opportunity to do video for a while now and just have had too much other shit going on. Joel has been able to double up on his naps, which has been awesome. But we finally found a company skill scout who we could do DIY stuff and it wouldn't look like all "Blair Witchy" and shit. It looks good. So we're happy about that.

Joel: It took a company led by another Cheesman to get us on, on video. We appreciate that. And a Valentine.

Chad: And a Valentine... The one who actually sent the shit to you.

Joel: A Cheesman and a Valentine. Shout out to Jim Stroud, the latest entrant to our network empire podcast empire joined evergreen this week. The announcement went out. We're glad to have Jim on board and it's going to be a fun ride. Shout out to him.

Chad: It is. And next up I'm going to say I'm going to give it up. It's going to happen... For all you branding fans out there. Employer Brand fans, James Ellis and The Talent Cast will be official very, very so in the Evergreen Podcast network. If you're looking for more knowledge to feed your brain subscribed to the Jim' Stroud's podcast and The Talent Cast.

Joel: Saw James today. Actually I'm sure this will be something he, he needs to cover this on the podcast and I'm going to, I'm going to tease the audience. He was recently interviewed for a job at CareerBuilder. I won't give away any more than that, but he's got a nice little story to tell. Yes, very recently they're pimping that. They got a bunch of money somehow, which I don't think has been publicized, but we'll, we'll have to get on that if anyone knows anything about that. Let us know.

Chad: This class action suit we're going to talk about might have something to do with that. A big shout out to Micole Garate I think it is. She tweeted listening to the Chad and cheese podcast for the first time. "This Is definitely the big mouths of HR podcast". Two things first, Nicole. Really this is your first time. Welcome. But wow, it took you so long. Second, the big mouths. I think that's good. I'm just not sure.

Joel: You make her name sound like the latest McDonald's dessert. I think it's Micole and not Mc-Hole or whatever that all you'd said. And why can't we get fans with normal names? For God's sakes, man, we can't pronounce anybody's on this show. I'll take them off. Yeah. However, Michael O'Dell I can pronounce, he lives in Nashville works for Neuvoo. Apparently they have about 10 different pronunciations of the, of the word and within the company. So the fact that we mispronounced it I think is okay. But Michael took us, took me, to his favorite barbecue spot. Took me to some cool sort of historic bars in Nashville. Fed me PBR. It was a good time, Michael. Much appreciated you're a good cat.

Chad: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Julie doesn't give get any props it all for buying you drinks. Are you kidding me?

Joel: She didn't buy me any drinks.

Chad: Okay, we'll, we'll put that one out there. Wait til she gets home. Shout out to your favorite porn star. Hung Lee for giving us some love. He gave us some lot of on Sundays, recruiting brain food. I've never seen one of his porn his porn movies, but you know, that's, you say he's good, so I'm going to go with you on that.

Joel: He's hung like a, you know what? That's all I'm saying. Who else got a, that's all my shout outs. We can talk about travel unless she got more people to suck up too.

Chad: Jobiak. You forgot job yak gets $2.3 million.

Joel: I'm going with Joby. You like Jobiak better?

Chad: Yeah, it's definitely Jobiak. They're pushing jobs to Google for jobs. I'm going to say it's Jobiak,

Joel: Joby yak. Kodiak job yak. Yeah, they got 2.3 mill, right?

Chad: Yeah, 2.3 mill. It's, it's, it's interesting now for what I'm hearing. They're having issues with conversions.

Joel: Oh shit.

Chad: Conversions can be a bitch and hopefully that 2.3 million can help you get there. My big question is we really haven't heard much from any of the programmatic players around Google for jobs and what I would like to hear from them and we'll reach out, but you guys reach out to us is Google for jobs dying? Are we seeing still the type of traffic that we did six months ago, a year ago? I want to hear about that because we're not seeing much happening from the platform itself.

Joel: Yeah, I don't think it's dying. There's an SEO presentation, PowerPoint being passed around and it, it's, it's not about the jobs component, but it's about Google's entire no click search like strategy to compete with everybody and jobs is just a piece of that. But right from the tool, the SEO tools that have been sort of highlighted in this presentation the jobs component is growing quite nicely. So although we may not hear stuff anecdotally or from providers for that at least one tool in the SEO community is showing that there's a, there's a good amount of growth in the jobs vertical for Google. So I don't think it's going anywhere. I know, you know, we've talked to Sovren Robert Ruff about how much easier it is to sort of handle jobs, parse jobs and serve them up much more so than profiles, which was part of the (Google) Hire issues and closing that down.

Joel: But yeah, I don't, I don't think hires going anywhere. I think they're going to monetize it next year. They're going to start paper click shit. Like I don't, I don't think it's going anywhere at all.

Chad: So you don't feel like jobs is going anywhere. Okay. I don't. Okay. Okay. We definitely like again to hear from some of our programmatic friends out there to give us some, some data on some of that. Just the, the peaks and valleys of what's going on. And imagine that a programmatic friend, Julie Ho from JobAdX your limited edition Chad and Cheese t-shirt is in the mail. Just want to make sure you knew that..

Joel: Big fan of the show. Julie Ho. Man, awesome... Events. We're almost done with the year. Thank God. Are we going to have a moratorium on talking about 2020 until 2020?

Chad: Possibly.

Joel: Okay, so ICIMS this next week.

Chad: Going to Arizona for ICIMs... GOLF... Goat Yoga! And then we'll learn more about in players. You know, one of our big players in our space, you know, you might've heard of them ICIMS. So it's going to be a two day affair. Learning what's going on with them against the market and why we're there. We can actually ask them about Google for jobs as well.

Joel: We, we totally can. And they enjoy talking about that. Colin's a big fan of what Google's doing. And by the way, that reminded me of another shoutout, a Symphony Talent care package came from me. You got that or not? But yeah. Yet another Yeti that I can add to the collection and a pair of AirPods, which is fucking fat.

Joel: So ICIMS better up the game when we go down there with the swag because symphony talent just upped the game big time.

Chad: Airpods and they matched ICIMS Yeti, Yeti for Yeti. So Symphony Talent now, not just spending money on things like I don't know SmashFly. They're spending things on a The Chad and Cheese.

Joel: Pretty sure they didn't just get that for us. Pretty sure everyone that's important, you know, and we are important got a Yeti and a pair of AirPods so we're not that special, but it's still really nice swag. Yeah, I'll take it from stuff that you can't drink. This is a pretty good you know, second second act. At least you can put drinks in the Yeti to keep cold for your football watching pleasure.

Chad: Yes, it needs to have that walking drink. Going to Dallas for TalentNet and what are we gonna be doing in Dallas? I shit, I don't even know what, what's, where are we at? What's, what's going on in Dallas?

Joel: Big D. Yup. We're doing a talent net live Craig Fisher's 10th year putting this shit on. It's a Dallas and really Texas staple. We're gonna be doing our show. We're going to be doing our naughty or our world famous naughty or nice list. And we're trying to, we're working on a guest a to come up with us. That's, that's been a challenge so far, but I'm pretty confident that we can get a, a competent female, hopefully counter voice to balance our naughty to her. Nice.

Chad: That would be nice. So if you're in Dallas area and you'd like to get on the chat and cheese podcast and feel free to go ahead and hit us on the website or tweet us or something like that,

Joel: We could probably get you into the conference. I don't want to speak for Craig, but if you're willing to come on the show and you don't have tickets to the event we could probably pull some strings.

Chad: I'm going to say we can probably do that.

Chad: Topics!

Chad: Topics! It's time for the NEWS...

Joel: Careerbuilder. The long arm of the law coming down on Careerbuilder once again in the news.

Chad: Yes. So from the Cook County Record, a, a new class accident action lawsuit has accused CareerBuilder for underpaying its sales representatives, allegedly stripping those workers of commissions they had earned. And one of the things you won't don't want to do to your school staff is you don't want to fuck with their commissions. But that is one big pile of shit. Benjamin D foggers filed suit and potentially hundreds if not thousands of additional plaintiffs who worked at Careerbuilder may join in that suit. So if you were in Careerbuilder during the timeframe in which the fucking occurred, guess what kids? Join the class action suit.

Joel: You gettin' paid, you don't get paid yet. I had heard rumors of this a while ago about commissions being screwed up. I think this was during the whole whatever, poncho Vila or whoever the hell it was.

Chad: El Chapo.

Joel: Yeah. I think this was during the whole Chapo thing that commissions are being cut and slashed. I had at least one ex career builder messaged me and said everything in this is entirely true and it's why so many of us left when it happened. So yeah, I think, I think CareerBuilder's probably gonna have to write a check for this one. And if it's thousands it's going to be a pretty big check.

Chad: Yeah. So according to the complaint, CareerBuilder instituted a new compensation plan. This is, this is classic. Under the new comp plan, the compensation was allegedly ratcheted down then commissions were removed entirely.

Joel: Ouch. I love also that they're adding interest and attorney fees to the lawsuit just to add a little salt to the the wound there that they're about

Chad: What do pissed off sales people do?

Joel: File lawsuits apparently.

Chad: ...Or They don't sell and, or they leave. And I've had a handful of 'em as individuals actually reach out and say exactly. It is a matter of fact, one of them sent me this this story. I didn't even know it. I got this story and then had a handful of others actually ping me and say, boom, here's the link. It's true. So it's, man, this is not a good thing. You don't, you don't screw your people.

Joel: Yeah. Yeah. There's also some, some good stuff out there on Glassdoor and indeed and other places where, you know, reviews are put. So it hurts your recruiting and retention for future employees that you might recruit.

Chad: Well, so you were talking about some of that money that they might've had that there were talking about with James a will, if you scrape this much money off the backs of your salespeople, you can come up with cash. But I mean right now CareerBuilder's kind of like that Titanic, it's going down while the executives find the lifeboats and everybody else just, you know, they just stay on and fucking drown. It's, it's horrible.

Joel: Yeah. I think they're, I think they're just playing with house money at this point. I mean, obviously a little bumps in the road where they have to pay out stuff sucks for them, but I think they've made their money. And then some, and now they're just milking it. Don't you think?

Chad: Now they're just making people's lives horrible. Sure. I mean that's what it is. I mean, people around have no idea what's going on. No, not putting money back into the product and looking to sell. And from my understanding, some of my sources say that the background screening company is very close to being sold. So there is even more money. So it's, you know, again, it's like the Titanic and my, my question to the people that are still on the Titanic, the fuck are you doing on the Titanic?

Joel: They're counting, they're shuffling the chairs because it's busy work. At least they have Text Kernel to fall back

Chad: Yeah. And Broadbean. Right, right. But I mean, so just a couple of years ago were they have like 25,000 clients and I mean that's dwindled down to like a 2-3000 or something like that. I mean, it's just, it's, I don't understand where this ends and how they can get guys like James Ellis in for an actual interview. Why? Why do they even need it and why are they doing WWE sponsors? I don't get it...

Joel: But at least you like their new ads though. So they have that.

Chad: No, I liked, I liked them better than any of their other ads they've done in the last couple of years. That's what I said.

Joel: We can talking about McDonald's then for God's sakes, we can beat that dead.

Chad: Yeah. I don't think the horse is dead. If the horse was dead, people wouldn't be publishing more, more news about them.

Joel: No, you're probably right.

Chad: Yeah. That's the thing that's getting me, and one of the reasons why I personally wanted to talk about this is because this feels like Second Life back in the day where everybody was so excited about it. But then remember TMP did a job fair and that shit just didn't work.

Joel: All right. Let's unwrap this a little bit. Are you comparing the fate of Second Life to the future fate of voice, search?

Chad: No wait a minute, I thought you, I thought you were still bolstering second life.

Joel: I'm on it right now. You believe voice assistants are a thing, right? Like that's not gonna. That's not gonna be Second Life part two, right?

Chad: Yeah. Well I think Second Life is still a thing though too. The problem was back when they did it, the bandwidth was horrible. The processing was horrible. It was too early for its time. It might be good for job fairs one day, right? But it's just not, it's not ready. The problem I have with this product, which we've talked about before, the experience for the job seeker sucks. And if that job seeker go figure is a customer of McDonald's and they have a shitty experience, it's just another black hole that they end up in. So I just don't get it. Why does McDonald's rush to market with something that sucks from an experience standpoint?

Joel: But I think there's one valid thing here is to note that bloggers and journalists are historically lazy and they see a story, right? McDonald's, Alexa apply for a job and it's like, I'm gonna write about that. And they just look at the press release, they copy and paste the quotes that are from the press release. And they don't actually like go to Alexa. Yeah, they don't do it. I have an Alexa if I don't have Alexa, I get that. But like they don't actually test it. It's just like something to drive traffic and clicks to their blog or website. So there is a, there's a level of laziness with this story to say like, Oh, it's cool, let's write about it, but actually not do journalism or reporting and see if it actually works. I wish some more of that would happen, but yeah, that's part of the reason why this thing is still in the news and it will continue to be someone else, some other company will do it and they'll do a press release around that restaurant or whatever has done it and more press will come out. But ultimately if the shit doesn't work, it'll just, it'll just die out. This is obviously going to be a topic in our Naughty and Nice podcast. I'm going to guess this is on your naughty list with a bullet.

Chad: And ONLY because I was so excited to be able to actually have something that was voice activated that was a good experience. Right? Or at least a good shot of an experience. This is total shit.

Joel: You feel torched by this. You're your it feel.

Chad: Yea, I feel, I feel bait and switched. So you know, if you're McDonald's, this is bullshit. If you're Paradox and Olivia, this is total utter bullshit. They both knew better. Mel. McDonald's probably didn't know as much better they should have, but the vendor paradox, they should have known better.

Joel: You feel like you've got catfish, don't you? You feel like you were lured in and then you know, she wasn't what you expected when you saw the Tinder post.

Chad: That's exactly right. It was a very, was a great look in maybe a little air brushing that was happening, but still, yeah. Got catfish on this one.

Joel: Well, let's take a break. I'm going to check the score on the Browns game and we'll come back and talk about indeed and bullhorns. New marketplace.

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Joel: We've got a seven Oh score Browns in the lead, Baker Mayfield one yard rush, rushing, touchdown. Just an update. It's early. Totally jinxing yourself at this point. Yeah, I can't wait when this airs in the finals like 49 to seven, there'll be good. It'll be fine. So a tweet from cofounder of indeed Paul Forrester. Got you all been out of shape this week. What happened?

Chad: Yeah. Well let's set this up real quick. So Paul Forrester really is the guy, him and Ronny who made Indeed, you know, what it is today. I mean, the culture of indeed is very, very much that of what Paul wanted it to be. And this tweet really it exemplifies.

Joel: You think it symbolizes the DNA of the company.

Chad: And who Paul Forrester is. So anyway, Paul puts out a tweet talking about 15 years ago, the indeed space and now the new indeed space in Austin apparently outdoes Facebook in Google. So he's all excited about it and one of the people that's not excited and I, I know many companies that are not excited because they feel like they were taken for a ride with the trojan horse. One of the, one of the people actually said, it's really too bad you're focusing more on your offices and not on the customers that got you there.

Chad: That's what we talk about all the time. Indeed. Really bait and switch where they give away that that free heroin drip of organic search traffic and then they just yank right out from underneath you that they did that with job boards. They did that with staffing companies. This is a great opportunity I think for Paul to say, you know, that's really interesting and Paul hasn't been with the company for a very long time. I think it's easy for Paul to say "That's very interesting. I'm not involved with ops, so you know, I, why don't we bring those guys in. I'm sure customer service can help you out" but Paul doesn't do that. Paul says, interesting point. Although in fact job-seekers are more important in that journey. Pretty much telling the company that paid to lift them up to create what they created today. Fuck you. That that symbolizes Paul Forrester. He's always been an asshole. And the culture of this organization is, guess what too fucking bad. You don't like it? Go somewhere else.

Joel: You know Paul's in Bora Bora with a fruity drink with an umbrella and could care less about your opinion. Okay.

Chad: It's a different story. This is another reason, another reason why he should, he should be nice to people for God's sake.

Joel: That's true. He has no other reason, you know? Right. It's, it's the two he has maybe.

Chad: He can at least after the billion dollars that they made while he's drinking fruity drinks on the beach, be a nice guy instead of an asshole anymore.

Joel: At least he's not cat fishing people from what we understand. That's a good thing by the way. Ronnie is a beautiful human being. We can agree on that.

Chad: Yes, we can definitely. We can definitely. He, they, they definitely have the, the yin and yang gone but also from a source and this continues to kind of build up. Here's a quote from one of one of the vendors who is dealing directly with hiring companies. "Indeed Told one of our bigger customers that to get their jobs sponsored, it would be 10K per month", which means in this context that they're actually starting to pull organic traffic away from hiring companies now and they're starting to make them pay exactly what they did with job boards, exactly what they did with staffing companies. Guess what? If you're a hiring company and you don't have an exit plan, sorry about ya.