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All Are Welcome

Cynthia Owyoung is VP, of inclusion, equity, and belonging at Robinhood. She's also the author of a new book, "All Are Welcome: How to Build a Real Workplace Culture of Inclusion that Delivers Results." So, if you have to ask why we had her on the podcast, then you're not paying attention. The boys discuss the current state of DEI&B in America, implementing inclusive talent strategies, and how to measure success when implementing inclusion strategies.

INTRO (2s):

Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.

Joel (23s):

Oh yeah. What's up boys and girls. It's your favorite guilty pleasure the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host Joel Cheesman joined as always by the prince of Portugal, Chad Sowash and today we are happy to welcome Cynthia Owyoung VP of Inclusion, Equity and Belonging at Robinhood and author of a new book entitled ALL ARE WELCOME How to Build a Real Workplace Culture of Inclusion That Delivers Results. Cynthia, welcome to the podcast.

Cindy (56s):

Thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.

Joel (1m 0s):

You're very welcome. What your resume is pretty intimidating. What should our listeners know about you that I didn't touch on in the intro?

Cindy (1m 8s):

Let's see, I've been doing DEI work for the past 20 years in both tech and financial services, but I didn't start my career there. I actually am a marketer at heart. So before I got into HR at all, I spent 10 years working at advertising agencies, doing consumer research yeah and strategic branding. That was a lot of fun working on commercials, but it was a very burnout kind of industry. So, after about that decade, I needed to make a switch and somehow thought going into HR was going to be easier.

Cindy (1m 54s):


Chad (1m 54s):

Oh, you certainly would not have bigger budgets that's for sure.

Cindy (1m 59s):

That's right. No, not at all. And so, but you know, I've been lucky enough to be able to do this work in the San Francisco Bay area where I'm born and raised. And I still have family living in the house that I grew up in. You know, I think what's relevant for this conversation for people to know is that I embody a lot of different dimensions of diversity that really informed why I do the work that I do now.

Chad (2m 33s):

What are they?

Cindy (2m 35s):

Good question. I'm Asian. I'm also a woman. My parents are immigrants. They came from China with nothing. So we grew up kind of lower middle class. My mom worked as a seamstress. My dad went to community college and became a civil engineer working for San Francisco. And I grew up in a primarily black neighborhood.

Chad (3m 1s):


Cindy (3m 1s):

My brother, one of my brothers is gay. The other brother is developmentally disabled. My father served in the air force when he was young. And my mom, you know, as a seamstress, you know, it was primarily stay at home, but did end up working when we were like in middle school and up. So, you know, I've got all these different sort of influences in, you know, growing up.

Joel (3m 30s):

Bring your story to Hollywood. I know that's a side note, but good Lord that's a good story.

Cindy (3m 38s):

Thank you. Yeah, but you know, that's what that's part of what has made me, who I am and why I have such a passion for social justice and equity in the world.

Chad (3m 49s):

I love it.

Cindy (3m 50s):

Because I grew up watching, you know, people treat my family members very differently just because of who they are and not giving them sort of, you know, benefit of the doubt or time of day when they are fully capable of doing so many things. And that is always, you know, incidents where people would look at my brother who's disabled and not want to hire him or even interview him for a role. Right. Those types of things have stuck with me throughout the years and that's why I do what I do.

Chad (4m 23s):

Well, let's jump into the book right out of the gate, the book, ALL ARE WELCOME How to Build a Real Workplace Culture of Inclusion That Delivers Results. Now we all know research demonstrates that diversity is good for business. And over the past decade, we've seen little proof of hiring, retention and promotion outcomes that should be coming after all of this research demonstrates that it's good for business, but we're not seeing the actual outcomes. So it seems to me and you've been on this path for many years but it seems like to me, that corporate America really doesn't care. Am I right? Is that what we've seen we've seen more, you know, pretty much glad-handing?

Chad (5m 6s):

What's going on here and how can we change decades of inequity?

Cindy (5m 14s):

Great question.

Joel (5m 14s):

We start with the easy questions first.

Cindy (5m 18s):

I know.

Joel (5m 19s):

Start with the softballs first.

Cindy (5m 20s):

You know, it's just dive right in. Right. So, you know, I don't think it's that corporations or the people who run corporations more specifically. Right. I don't think it's that they don't care. They do care. That's why you have people in roles like mine, trying to drive change and lead progress in more diversity and inclusion and equity and belonging inside our organizations. I think the main issue has been a lack of understanding of what it takes to change.

Chad (5m 54s):

Who's lack of understanding though? Because we have those people in those positions, right. And we're spending billions of dollars on training. So it seems at this point, like it's been a smokescreen who, who needs to understand, is it the C-suite or is it actually the people in the positions who are supposed to be carrying this out?

Cindy (6m 17s):

It's both.

Chad (6m 17s):


Cindy (6m 18s):

It is definitely both. How I kind of view this as a it's really, it's not just C-suites responsibility though, it's everyone's responsibility. So, you know, everyone who feels like this isn't work for them to do, like, that's part of what the change entails. That's why we haven't had progress. Everyone needs to see a role that they themselves play in whether or not we're going to, you know, have really diverse, inclusive teams. Right. So, you know, when I think about like leaders of an organization who are role modeling, leadership qualities and setting the tone of what they're expecting from people in their organizations, if they're not actually saying that more than just, this is important, but they're saying if they're not saying things like, here's what we expect you to do about it.

Cindy (7m 12s):

Right. Here's where we think it's more than just training cause to your point, you know, a lot of companies think that, oh, if I just invest in training, it's going to be the end, all be all and change everything and it doesn't right?

Chad (7m 26s):

No. Right.

Cindy (7m 27s):

And so, you know, we, we have these like misguided notions of what it takes and I think that we just haven't gone deep enough, both from an inner self person kind of like perspective, right? Like, can we all have to like, look at how we view things and where we have bias and how that tends to show up, to also looking at the systems and things that we've set up inside our companies. Right? Because they're based on those beliefs. And so, you know, in Silicon Valley, as an example, like there's a huge belief in the meritocracy.

Chad (8m 2s):


Cindy (8m 2s):

And if you work really hard and you're really smart, then you will make it. And people who don't just can't cut it. Right?

Chad (8m 11s):


Cindy (8m 12s):

And I think that's a myth. And I think those are the types of myths and beliefs that we have to blow up in order to make progress.

Chad (8m 19s):

But that sounds like the American way though. Right? It sounds like everybody's been programmed to believe in meritocracy that if you work hard enough and you pull yourself up by your bootstraps, anybody can make it. But at least over the last 40 years, we've seen a huge divide in socioeconomics. Right? So as we see that divide, how much harder is it, as you start to talk to the entire workforce and say, Hey, this is all our job. Well, you know, you've got a CEO who's getting paid 350 times that the mean of employees, the employees look at you and say, well, wait a minute, this isn't my job.

Chad (9m 0s):

How hard is it for you to be able to motivate those individuals, to be able to understand that this is important because this is a community.

Cindy (9m 12s):

Yeah. That is the crux of my role. That's the hardest, the biggest challenge, I think.

Chad (9m 18s):

That's not easy.

Cindy (9m 20s):

No, no and hence back to your original question, why we haven't made progress. Right. Because it isn't easy. I mean, people kind of think that, oh, all you have to do is just hire more people from different backgrounds. And if it were that easy, everyone would be doing it.

Chad (9m 41s):


Cindy (9m 41s):

But to your point, it's, you know, we have these very sort of entrenched beliefs, like what, you know, the American dream, like it's all based on meritocracy and research is one way to start to convince people, you know, and there's lots of research that tells us, like bias, plays a role, you know. Environment and social economic status are kind of huge predictors of whether somebody is going to be able to succeed or not. Right. The concept of privilege is real, but that's not enough, right? Because again, there's tons of research out there. If we all just read research, then you know, we would all be doing the things that we needed to do to make change, but it's not happening.

Chad (10m 23s):

We'd be eating our greens is what we'd be doing.

Joel (10m 25s):

I mean, for us, we we've been talking about this issue on the show, our show is about five years old, I'd say at least half of that, this has been a really big topic. I'm curious as someone that writes books about this topic, how would you describe the current state of inclusion in the workplace, in the US as well as maybe globally? How would you describe the current state of the issue?

Cindy (10m 49s):

Probably the most aware that we've ever been. I would say since the events of George Floyd's murder in 2020, the focus on racial equity has probably been, you know, probably the most heightened since it's been during, since the civil rights movement, right back in the sixties. And you know, now we have organizations that are not just like from the very large, but also from the very small and across many, many industries. Right who I think because of all of the social unrest that happened in 2020, know that they can't ignore this anymore because employees are asking about it.

Cindy (11m 29s):

Customers are asking about it, shareholders are asking about it. Right. So I think that it's not an issue that can be sort of ignored or swept under the rug anymore. And so I think you see a lot of companies trying to do things, but you also see a lot of companies who are doing things just for PR purposes, more so than I think before.

Joel (11m 52s):

So would you say it's fair to say it has passed sort of a stress because if you look at the pandemic, if you look now with, you know, the Ukraine invasion by Russia and it's still a hot topic, so it sounds like what you're saying is this is not a novelty. It's not a passing fad. It's here to stay and companies should pay attention.

Cindy (12m 13s):


Joel (12m 14s):

And is that why I, you know, as a writing, want to be, I'm always curious about what the Genesis or the inspiration was to write a book for you and to write it at the time that you did. Was it the George Floyd murder? Was it something else like, why write this book and why write it now?

Cindy (12m 31s):

Oh, Joel, I feel like, you know, I'm going to give you a really like unconventional answer to a very thoughtful question, because I actually, wasn't thinking about writing a book back in 2020. The events of George Floyd happened and I was just like completely focused on, okay, how do I address this? How do I take this momentum and really drive change in the organization that I was at at the time, but then like an editor at a publishing house reached out to me and asked me if, you know, if I would be willing to write a book. And it's always been something that I'd sort of had as an idea in the back of my mind, but seriously, never thought that I would write a book about my work.

Cindy (13m 18s):

I always thought it was going to be something else. And so when this opportunity presented itself, I was just like, yeah, absolutely. And the more than I thought about it, the more than I realized that if I'm really truly trying to drive change in a way that I think is going to be effective, that I think a lot of other folks, especially within not just within organizations, but within HR could benefit from, like writing a book is one of the best ways to be able to scale the type of impact that I want to make. I decided to go whole hog into that process. And that's really sort of the key motivators.

Joel (13m 55s):

Well, I hope your publisher's aware of being you being on the show and that they better start making some extra copies cause that's the kind of traffic that we warrant on the show.

Chad (14m 7s):

So, Cindy from the outside of Silicon Valley, because that's where we are, it feels like a very bro culture brand. And as somebody who's in the position like you are in your you're working for tech companies, how do you fight that brand? Because it seems to be true or at least the perception is out there. And we all know perception is reality. It's the brand. So how do you work against that in your employer, branding efforts? What do you do? Do you use your ERG? I mean, what are the tips and tricks?

Cindy (14m 41s):

Yeah. You got to use everything that you've got in your arsenal to really change that perception. Right. So I think it goes through so many things in terms of, you know, sort of traditional branding, things like who are you showing in your branding, right? Like what pictures of people are on your website, right? What is your copy sound like? What is the impression that you're leaving? Right. All of those things will make a difference, but it only makes a little bit of a difference. I think if you, you, what really matters is if you have leaders at the company, particularly the CEO or others in your C-suite, who are actively out there and talking about this and saying that they're committed and that they're wants to make a difference and that their culture is different, right.

Cindy (15m 32s):

It isn't a bro culture. And then you have like all of those things to actually support that, right? From the types of benefits you have to the type of people that you have actually already hired into the organization to how you see your values and how you run the organization. Right. All of these things, I think really matter. And I give you the example of GoDaddy. Do you remember GoDaddy back when completely sexist bro culture, employer, brand perception, because they had these really bad Superbowl ads. Right? Right. And then they hired Blake Irving in as their CEO.

Cindy (16m 14s):

And he came in and he completely changed it like complete 180, because he was just like, look, we are not doing these ads anymore. This is not who we are as a company, this is not where we are, who we want to be, especially for our customers, 50% of whom are female. Right. And so we are going to change our values. We are going to, and he went to the Grace Hopper conference, which is the largest conference for women technologists in the world. And he got on stage. And when he got on stage, he was booed. Right. Because everybody knew about GoDaddy's sort of previous reputation, but he got up there and he's just like, look, I'm trying to change that and I need your help.

Chad (16m 55s):

Yeah. Come work for me. Yeah.

Cindy (16m 56s):

Exactly. And he totally did it and he really turned it around. And now, you know, I mean, he's hired some of the most respected women technologists in the industry that his company before he ended up retiring and leaving and now, you know, it's in other hands, but, you know, I think that's a great example. And I had the opportunity to work with Blake Irving before he went to GoDaddy when he was at Yahoo and everything that he like presented about himself was like authentic and true. That matters.

Chad (17m 34s):

So how is using workforce composition, hiring retention, promotion. Those have to be amazing tools, but when you get to an organization, you don't have those, right. So you have to start from ground zero. So when you get to an organization, do you automatically start taking a look at workforce composition, take a look for, at the retention rates for individuals who are more underrepresented and the promotions. Do you look at those things so that you can bring that to the C-suite? So they understand how does that all work so that you have a base to work off of?

Cindy (18m 8s):

First thing I do in any organization is I do an assessment or an audit of all of their demographics and data, as it relates to different diversity dimensions and looking at all their sort of systems and practices as well. So definitely looking at overall workforce composition from a representation perspective, hiring rates, retention rates, development, and promotion rates. Right. So all of those are the kind of like the hard HR metrics to look at. But then I always try to, I always couple that with just like talking to as many employees as possible, right?

Cindy (18m 50s):

Like, because the data will tell you one thing, but you will have to also get the stories, like what are the actual experiences that people are having at the organization and how does that differ across different groups. Right. And, you know, you can do surveys as well to give you some of that, but I don't think that there's any replacement for the actual stories that you hear on the ground. And then, you know, Lena, I think that all of that information needs to be paired with kind of just a more objective assessment of like what kinds of programs are in place, you know, what's missing from this mix. You know, how, when we look at your end to end hiring process or your end to end promotion process, like how do decisions happen?

Cindy (19m 37s):

How do they get made, right? And are there ways to make that more inclusive and or less biased? So those are all really important inputs. And, the way that I really get started in building the right strategy for the position.

Joel (19m 52s):

I want to jump to chapter four for a second. I'm entitled Implementing Inclusive Talent Strategies and we have a ton of TA folks who listened to the podcast. And I want you to just sort of go through some of the things in terms of talent acquisition. The first thing I want to talk about is your opinion of referral programs, because in your book, it sounds like you, you find them to be a good thing, but I've also heard devil's advocate saying, well, referral programs are just bringing in the same types of people into the organization. So there's a lack of diversity in referral programs. Did I read that wrong or what sort of your advice for companies who are implementing referral programs to be inclusive?

Cindy (20m 34s):

Yeah, generally I think referral programs can be great. It's just to that sort of criticism of them, you can't just rely on the majority of your folks referring in people, you have to also make sure that you're getting referrals from people who are from more underrepresented backgrounds, right?

Joel (20m 55s):

Should they increase the rewards for diverse referrals or do you do sort of suggest otherwise?

Cindy (21m 3s):

So I actually believe that you do what you need to do to get the talent that you want.

Joel (21m 11s):

Interesting ok.

Cindy (21m 12s):

And so I think, yes, if there are companies that have increased their referral bonuses for people from different backgrounds, because they treat that as a skillset or a perspective like any other that you're hiring for what you would. Right. So, I mean, if I'm already willing to increase my referral bonus for this really hard to find technical skillset, wouldn't the similar corollary be to also increase that for somebody who comes with like specific knowledge about a community that you may be trying to reach from a marketing perspective.

Joel (21m 47s):

Let's get into a job descriptions. And in many ways, this is sort of the first introduction or a messaging that companies have with talent. What tips would you give to writing unbiased job descriptions?

Cindy (22m 1s):

So many! I think there are a few key ways that you can reduce the amount of bias in your job description. So one is to research what inclusive language looks like and take advantage of different free tools that are already out there on the internet that can help identify more gendered or bias language in your job descriptions. Like there's actual like word engines that you can like put your job description through and it will highlight for you is that are either like highly masculine or highly feminine. And there's research that says that the more sort of gender neutral, you can get language in your job description, the more effective they are at attracting more diverse candidates.

Cindy (22m 43s):

So that's one key way. I think the other key way, and I'm sure both of you have heard of this where there's research that says that again, from a gender perspective, women tend to apply to roles only if they meet a hundred percent of the qualifications and men tend to apply when they meet 60 or less.

Joel (23m 5s):

Way less.

Chad (23m 5s):

Or 20.

Cindy (23m 8s):

Exactly. And so really having a critical eye toward, like, what are your job requirements? And are you putting in a lot of nice to haves as opposed to truly what is a need to have? Right. You know, I think again, sort of making sure that not only are you reviewing critically the number of job requirements that you have to encourage more people to apply, but also what is in those job requirements, which is the third thing. I think a lot of people fall into the trap of, and you know, I've done this, of course, like many people do this is like, I'll just like take an old job description for a new job.

Cindy (23m 48s):

Right. I'm trying to hire.

Chad (23m 49s):

Let's just google it.

Cindy (23m 50s):

Exactly. And I'll copy and paste, or I might modify in some ways, but like, is that truly what you need for your organization? And taking that role critical item, match it to the competencies that you want instead of like blankets saying, oh, like, I need somebody with an advanced degree in human resources for this like sourcing role that I might be hiring for. Like, is that really necessary? I'm not sure.

Joel (24m 16s):

And you're going to make us work, Cynthia, you're going to make us work well. And the last thing I have on the talent acquisition side is we talk a lot on the show about artificial intelligence and every week it seems like there are companies who say AI is going to save us from a DEI and B perspective. Where are you on AI when it comes to inclusivity? Are you pro, con, are there blind spots? Like talk about AI for a second.

Cindy (24m 46s):

I think AI can be great, but we have to make sure that we're doing it with an eye towards how do we actually remove bias in AI, as well, right. Because, you know, algorithms, artificial intelligence, like that's all programmed by human beings who come with our own biases. And if we're not careful and we don't put sort of checkpoints in place for that, then we're just going to perpetuate it through AI. Right. So we have to develop AI that works in a way that doesn't actually perpetuate some of those biases, but can mitigate against some of them. Right. I think, I don't know if you're familiar with Dr.

Cindy (25m 29s):

Joy Buolamwini who leads an organization called the Algorithmic Justice League.

Chad (25m 32s):

Oh, no.

Joel (25m 32s):

Sounds cool.

Cindy (25m 33s):

Yeah, it's totally cool. Like she's done totally. I highly recommend you research it because she's done great research that look at, you know, like facial recognition software, and I'll, you know, lots of facial recognition software, especially in its earlier heyday could detect white faces, but not black ones.

Chad (25m 58s):


Cindy (25m 59s):

Right. And you know, and how, when we're doing, where we're creating the data sets for these types of algorithms, if we're not mindful of who's in those datasets, or who's giving us those data sets, right. Because they were primarily white faces in those datasets, hence you get the outcome of not being able to see like have facial recognition for black faces. So we have to like, you know, actually be mindful and then build for diversity when we're building AI. And that's when I think it can be beneficial.

Chad (26m 31s):

So there are so many excuses out there, Cindy, but one of the one excuse that we hear all the time from leaders, as they say that there aren't enough diverse candidates to fill the open roles out there. What do you say to that?

Cindy (26m 48s):

I say you not looking hard enough. I mean, at its most basic, like you're just not looking hard enough or you're not providing enough of an attractive package that people from those underrepresented backgrounds are going to want to work for you.

Chad (27m 6s):


Cindy (27m 7s):

So, you know, that's sort of a two-prong thing where there's a lot of great talent and underrepresented communities. Granted they're not as many in some fields as others, right. I mean, we take the example of like engineering right, and technical roles. And we know that a majority of folks graduating with technical and engineering degrees fall into the white male majority. Right. But that doesn't mean that there aren't like significant pools of like black, latinex, LGBTQ, like, you know, military talent with skill sets that can be transferable into there, who, or people who can, you know, who may have 80% of the experience that you're looking for, but could learn the other 20% if they needed to.

Chad (28m 5s):

It really seems like that we have the opportunity to go out and companies could actually get into underrepresented populations and they could create training programs that would build talent pipelines for now, and in the future. But it almost seems like we're waiting for the government, it's almost like corporate welfare. Right. We always get on welfare. Oh, it's so bad. But wait a minute, it's great for corporations. They're always waiting for the government to actually fix the problem. What should companies do now to be able to try to bridge those gaps?

Cindy (28m 44s):

Hey, they should stop waiting for government to do something. Right. I love it. They should really start to think about how to build that themselves and making the investment in it. And, by the way, not doing it just on their own either. I think this is one of those areas where companies have to stop thinking about just themselves and think about like, okay, what's better for the industry. And how do I partner with other companies in my space so that we can kind of pool capital, talent, resource, whatever, right together, to drive the change, that we need to see. I think that, you know, any time that we just try to do it all on our own, we're actually setting ourselves up for failure because it's not going to be just like one company changing the entire industry or, you know, changing the entire talent pipeline.

Cindy (29m 39s):

Right. There's going to be a series of steps and a wholesale movement in this area to be able to do that. And I just think that, you know, it's really hard for companies kind of think more broadly so that they can, you know, put the resources and make the investments that are needed to create these kinds of like apprenticeship or training programs and even just mentoring. I mean, just doing that is going to make a huge difference.

Chad (30m 12s):

Well, also hasn't the pandemic provided us with now the vision to start to think remote?

Cindy (30m 17s):


Chad (30m 17s):

And then to be able to get into more remote diverse populations, do you think that has helped at all? Or do you think that when really we get back to quote unquote "normal", we're just going to go back to our old routine and remote is not going to be as prominent as really we want it to be.

Cindy (30m 40s):

I do think that remote is going to continue to be a much bigger part of the working world than it has been prior to the pandemic. I don't think it's going to go away. I do think that companies will start to add a little bit back towards, you know, what you said, you know, kind of going back to like a quote unquote "normal", which is what they were doing before the pandemic, because, you know, we, as human beings tend to not like change. And we like to kind of go back to like things that we think were helping us, you know, be successful. So, you know, I think that there's going to be some swinging of the pendulum back.

Cindy (31m 22s):

I just don't think it will go as far back as it was before. I do think that having more remote first companies or companies that have much more flexible work arrangement and work location policies as a result of the pandemic will be companies that are able to attract more diverse talent and retain it, which is the other, like the super key part of this is not just bringing them in, but like keeping them, those companies are going to be the ones that are able to have to have more diversity in their ranks. I do really believe that.

Joel (31m 56s):

I think you've touched on some of this, but I want to, I want to jump to just a chapter seven, which is entitled Measuring Success. And to me, this is sort of the crux of how we sell this issue to corporate America. So how do you measure success?

Cindy (32m 19s):

Lots of different ways. I think that, you know, from a business perspective, the one metric that everyone looks at as a measure of success in diversity and inclusion work is, representation, right? And so do we have gender parody? Do we have racial equity and parody to available talent pools? And do you see that at all levels of the organization? So that's kind of the first measure. I think that the other measures are around inclusion and belonging, because it's one thing to have that diversity. It's quite another to have that diversity feel like it truly belongs right.

Cindy (33m 1s):

And are thriving and are supported in the company. And so I think it's important to look at things like your, you know, diversity surveys or inclined inclusion, climate surveys, to understand what is the sense of belonging and get those stories from people, right? Like if I hear from employees that they feel like they have as much opportunity to succeed as anyone else in the organization, especially if you're from an underrepresented group, then that to me is like, is part of how I define success. What makes me personally feel really gratified in this work is when I see people achieve the career aspirations that they've laid out for themselves.

Cindy (33m 49s):

And it's because I've done something to intervene, whether that's provided them mentoring or created a coaching program, or had them go through some sort of like training and development leadership program and seeing them kind of rise through the organization right, in a way that's like where they're still authentic and who they are. Like, those are the most satisfying moments for me, where I feel like I'm actually being successful in my role.

Chad (34m 18s):

That is awesome. Well, the book is ALL ARE WELCOME How to Build a Real Workplace Culture of Inclusion That Delivers Results. The author right here, Cynthia Owyoung. Cynthia if somebody wants to find out more about you or I don't know, maybe even buy the book, where would you send them?

Cindy (34m 40s):

They shouldn't go to my website I have all the links to Amazon, Barnes and Nobles indie bound, bookshop, right? Everywhere that you can purchase the book online. Let's say if they also want it to get connected with me, they can look for me on LinkedIn or on Twitter at Cindy Owyoung.

Joel (34m 56s):

By the way, Cynthia, my connection on LinkedIn is still pending. It's still pending. So I'm waiting to be connected to you. Chad another one is in the book, Cynthia, this was fantastic.

Chad (35m 11s):

Thank you so much.

Joel (35m 12s):

We out.

Chad (35m 13s):

We out.

OUTRO (35m 59s):

Thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast with Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of Shout Outs of people, you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any hoo be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. Is so weird. We out.


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