Compliance Chaos in 2025

🧯HR compliance isn’t sexy—but it will save your ass.🧠 OutSolve’s Jeremy Mancheski joins the show to:

• Decode the alphabet soup of I-9s, DEI, and AI

• Laugh through the regulatory circus with sharp wit and sharper takes

• Most of all, wow Joel with posters. YES POSTERS!?!

  
  

If you think compliance is boring, this episode will slap that notion with a laminated labor law poster. Buckle up.

PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION

Joel (00:29.237)

Yeah, what's up boys and girls? This is the Chad and cheese podcast. I'm your co-host Joel Cheeseman joined as always riding shotgun is Chad. So wash as we welcome Jeremy Manchesky to the show. He is CEO and founder of out solved Jeremy. Welcome to HR's most dangerous podcast.

Jeremy Mancheski (00:47.938)

Thank you, good to be here.

Joel (00:49.909)

Good to have you. Well, a lot of our listeners won't know you, probably may not know OutSolve. Give us a quick sort of elevator pitch on you and the organization.

Jeremy Mancheski (00:58.318)

Sure, we're a company founded in 1998, I was the founder, focused on HR compliance. We handle a lot of the stuff that HR folks don't want to do but have to do.

Chad (01:12.334)

Yeah. So I always told Joel that starting a company to do the boring stuff, the important stuff, but the boring stuff is a smart business. And apparently since 1998, that's, that's been a smart business. yes, yes.

Joel (01:28.021)

Boring is usually really profitable for some reason.

Jeremy Mancheski (01:29.89)

Well, well, I can assure you, no one's six-year-old self ever said, you know, when I grow up, I want to do HR compliance.

Joel (01:35.797)

You

Joel (01:41.013)

haha

Chad (01:42.116)

do poster updates. We'll get into that. We'll get into that.

Jeremy Mancheski (01:43.981)

That's right.

Joel (01:45.084)

please, yes, yes. I'm waiting, I'm patiently, Chad, for the posters.

Chad (01:48.784)

Joel's 14 year old self keeps thinking concert posters. It's not that kind of poster, Cheeseman, but we'll get there. So Jeremy, the landscape of compliance has changed dramatically. And I mean, you being in this business for a while, I was an EEOC and OFCCP side of the house with VEVRA and 4212 and 503 and all these different things. These are very important things, right? But they seem to have...

Joel (01:55.817)

That's a shame.

Jeremy Mancheski (02:14.434)

Sure, of course.

Chad (02:18.252)

either changed dramatically lately, AAP as well, changed dramatically lately, just pretty much gone away. So when you take a look at the landscape today, we have companies asking us left and right, not just about DEI and what we should do on the DEI side, but also on the compliance side. So what are you hearing from companies and knowing that it's not the most stable of times?

What's the advice you're giving back?

Jeremy Mancheski (02:51.084)

Sure, and like every, like your listener base, we have companies who lean left, lean right, people at those companies who lean left, lean right. The first 25 plus years of Outsolves existence, affirmative action planning and compliance, was a major part of the business, for sure. Obviously, there's been some change. January 21,

Chad (02:58.32)

Mm-hmm.

Jeremy Mancheski (03:19.822)

I'm sure as I write my memoir one day, it'll be enough snow fell on that day in New Orleans that it was the equivalent of 100 years. True story. Over a foot of snow fell in New Orleans the day the executive order 11246 was rescinded. Yeah, 100 years worth of snow one day. Made it tough to get to the office to start getting this figured out, but here's the strange reality.

Chad (03:37.413)

Wow.

Joel (03:45.845)

Mm-hmm.

Jeremy Mancheski (03:48.556)

Some companies left, some companies right. You'd think that would have put that portion of the business completely on its heels. It's actually quite the opposite. Companies do want advice and they see these choppy waters we're in and they just want to know what to do. I've said since 1998, Outsolve has no political leaning. We're here to make our customers compliant. Part of that is helping them navigate

Chad (03:55.493)

Mm-hmm.

Jeremy Mancheski (04:17.516)

whoever's in the office. Remember, I've seen Republicans, I've seen Democrats, and this is obviously a very extreme administration in lots of ways, certainly not just related to my little corner of the world. The administration has some of this simply wrong. 1-1-2-4-6 in no way created quotas. 1-1-2-4-6 in no way created illegal DEI. And certainly, think anyone, regardless of what side you're on,

Chad (04:43.652)

Mm-hmm.

Jeremy Mancheski (04:47.874)

would see that this administration gets focused on headlines, not necessarily the entire story. And in here, the headline is illegal DEI. And furtherance to that is meritocracy and trying to tear down what they see as some of the holdouts to policies that may not suit that agenda. So to your question, Chad,

Joel (05:02.975)

you

Jeremy Mancheski (05:15.63)

Is your earlier question, you asked me, you said, this a four-year problem? Is this something that changes? At this point, who knows? I think it's very reasonable to say that should a Democrat come into office or certainly a more moderate Republican in the next administration, we could be right back where we were just as quickly as these executive orders stripped some of these—

Chad (05:38.224)

Mm-hmm.

Jeremy Mancheski (05:43.969)

other executive orders, we might see them put back in place. But for now, many companies are still trying to navigate the waters. You mentioned VEVRA, 503, those are still the law, gotta comply. And companies are still obligated to ensure a non-discriminatory workforce. So once you get past the buzzwords, you're not too far off of where you started.

Chad (06:03.759)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (06:08.272)

So Bush though, in the latter part of his term, I mean, he doubled down OFCCP, right? They put a lot into OFCCP enforcement to ensure that people, companies who are taking cash from their dollars are doing right by veterans and individuals with disabilities and so on and so forth. So we did, and you're 100 % right, Republican. And he was doubling down on those things because he thought it was right.

so right now, again, it feels like you have to focus on what's in front of you today, not four years down the road. Is that what companies are really focusing on at this point? Although you still have to set up for who might be in next so that you have to do data collection and the things that were important before they're still important because data, we live in a world of data. We need that data. So talk about.

Jeremy Mancheski (07:02.67)

Well, 100%. It is an interesting timeline. Normally, companies like to plan for what's going to happen next year, two years, five years. You can't do that right now. Look at tariffs, for instance. They come, they go, they're in, they're out. Same with HR regulations. Today, we're trying to see what the very next step will be. And what I mean by that is they're going to be

Chad (07:11.984)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (07:22.384)

Mm-hmm.

Jeremy Mancheski (07:32.734)

an enforcement arm of OFCCP. OFCCP has been stripped down approximately 90%. What data analytics would the administration suggest? Just last week, disparate impact is being challenged. That's often misunderstood by the federal contractor community and misinterpreted as adverse impact analysis, two very different things. What we can focus on today

Let's talk about the EEO1 report. If you think posters are sexy, let's talk about the EEO1 report. There you go. I'm not. I'm not. I can't wait to get to that. But the EEO1 report has effectively an unbroken line of data collection for 40 plus years. No one really knew or even now knows whether current EEOC would even collect it in the Trump administration.

Chad (08:06.64)

Get ready, Cheeseman. Get ready, Cheeseman.

Joel (08:07.989)

Don't steal my thunder, don't steal my thunder, Jeremy.

Jeremy Mancheski (08:30.722)

Fortunately, last week we got an instruction manual came out. And even though non-binary gender was never part of the E01, this administration wanted to make it clear that it's not part of the E01. So that's the big change, non-change for the E01. Exactly, exactly. We don't want it even creeping in.

Chad (08:49.69)

Thanks for the clarification, right? Thanks for the clarification. Yeah, that's great.

Jeremy Mancheski (08:55.79)

But what we have, what we have is hopefully end of May, I think it's May 20, we think the EO1 data collection will happen and that's going to trigger quite a few things for companies out there. One, the requirement to file. You got to do it. Again, unbroken line. You will also find that that form is used for many state obligations, certifications, maybe even internally with 10K filing.

for public companies, for RFPs when companies produce that. Lots of things that I've been saying, this administration has cut twice and measured zero. A riff on the old cut once and cut once, measure twice. But here, we're not sure of the impact of everything that's going on. So data collection remains important. 503 and VEVRA still have to do it.

and what we're calling non-discrimination and employment analysis, 95 plus percent of our customers are still continuing the long doing.

Joel (09:59.317)

Cut once, measure twice. Tell me you're old without telling me you're old. Chad's former life was knee deep in this stuff. Mine less so. And when we spoke a few months ago, what really crystallized the importance of this to me was your recent purchase of a posters company. We just talked about the feds, but you guys have to worry about state and local laws and

laws on a global impact as well. So talk about the posters, help the people like me who aren't as well versed this, like what you guys do and how important it is keeping companies out of court.

Chad (10:28.868)

Changes, yeah.

Jeremy Mancheski (10:31.31)

her.

Jeremy Mancheski (10:39.598)

Joel, I hate to correct you, but we have bought two poster companies.

Joel (10:44.339)

Woo hoo hoo hoo hoo. I can feel it Jeremy. Speak to me baby.

Jeremy Mancheski (10:47.822)

Sure. That's right. That's right. That's right. The two-poster business, Federal Wage and Labor Law Institute. There you go. No, not even close. It's a big market. Federal Wage and Labor Law Institute out of Houston and Labor Law Center out of Southern California, Santa Ana. Those posters are actually some very basic blocking and tackling for HR. And what we found

Chad (10:48.24)

a poster monopoly happening here, Jeremy. Be careful. Be careful.

Joel (10:55.155)

and antitrust issues.

Jeremy Mancheski (11:17.486)

It's one thing to say, let's go to your break room and let's look at the poster up there. It's another thing if you are a 50 state employer and you have to figure out how to maintain compliance at various sites. Imagine, let's say you pick a large fast food chain. How do you keep that poster compliance managed? And we do that through a few different ways. Of course, individual poster purchase, but...

most do a subscription. And if you think about change, change being the driver of something changes on a poster, that's why you need a new one. Keeping up with it is really, really complicated for large businesses. So subscription model makes sense. We see this year, we anticipate lots of federal and state updates, which means we're going to be shipping, when I say literally millions of posters, that's what I mean.

I'll have to get you all some pictures of our facility in Santa Ana. It's amazing. It's a large, large operation. But the connection to the other products and services we have, we found that compliance, HR compliance, everything from EEO, affirmative action, what we're learning is I-9 compliance, and of course, state posters.

Joel (12:24.679)

huh.

Jeremy Mancheski (12:46.402)

those usually fall to similar contacts within a company. So for us, providing connected solutions is critically important and a real value add to the customer.

Chad (12:59.118)

So AAP, as you had said, very big part of the business at one time, you guys diversified, right? Now let's take a look at, you know, kind of like the small business side of this. There are many companies that are out there that are laser focused on AAP. That to me seems like a cottage industry that's pretty much, I mean, they're going to have to diversify quickly or they're just going to have to go to the way of the dodo.

What have you seen, because again, this is small business and small business runs this country. Talk a little bit about what you've seen with regard to AAP providers and then also companies asking questions around AAP.

Jeremy Mancheski (13:40.558)

Sure. I actually have spent quite a bit of time talking with my large and small competitors throughout this. The stark reality is there isn't a lot of guidance. So how customers can be best protected. Remember the concept of illegal DEI. The OFCCP has even suggested

Chad (13:48.474)

Mm-hmm.

Jeremy Mancheski (14:06.754)

They've suggested OCCP become a of watchdog for illegal DEI. So if last year we're selling affirmative action, this year we have to pivot to monitoring nondiscrimination and part of that being ensuring no illegal DEI. Air quotes, I know we're not doing video on this, but consider air quotes around illegal DEI because we still don't really have a solid definition.

big companies, small companies, and everybody in between are struggling to try to keep their names off of government watch lists, recognizing, of course, that the government is just as capable of using AI tools as any of us would be to maybe search websites, find something on diverse slates, find job postings that are seemingly using language related to DEI or something to that effect.

Chad (14:44.708)

Mm-hmm.

Joel (14:44.81)

Mm-hmm.

Jeremy Mancheski (15:05.784)

So companies are kind of in the woods right now. I spend probably half my day speaking with customers, asking pointed questions in this direction. And we have a process for them that involves a non-discrimination and employment analysis, real analytics. Because like you say, Chad, data is a key driver. Metrics related to data are key drivers within HR.

Joel (15:33.693)

You, you, guys are on the front lines of, of what customers are talking about. What's worrying them. We've covered sort of the, new administration and the white house, some of the state issues, DEI. What else is on the tip of, of customers tongues? I mean, you've got gig economy, privacy, you have mental health, like there's so many issues. What are some other hot topics that clients are talking about with you?

Jeremy Mancheski (15:57.27)

Immigration. We found a lot of our customers who were responsible for affirmative action plans are also responsible for completing I-9 forms. Again, take something so simple as verifying immigration status or the appropriateness to work with someone and magnify it across a large enterprise. And it's very, very cumbersome. You mentioned where we...

Chad (16:09.232)

Mm.

Jeremy Mancheski (16:26.638)

We're adding new products and services and diversifying. I9 solution we found was something that was absolutely on the tip of our customers' tongues. It was coming up in so many conversations. One of the advantages of having a decent-sized workforce, Outsolve has about 150 employees, and the vast, vast majority of those are customer-focused, having conversations with HR people every day.

Chad (16:52.24)

Mm-hmm.

Jeremy Mancheski (16:53.246)

and now navigating all this change. if they're asking about immigration and I-9s, well, that's a service we can provide. Another thing that's come up quite a bit, how can I balance state compliance, as we say, with federal compliance? It's complicated because remember, you have very blue states and you have very red states. Guess which ones are following the lead of the federal government?

Chad (17:24.08)

Yeah, fairly simple. Yeah, yeah, the red ones. So when we take a look at, and it sounds like very smartly, you guys have actually gone into the non-discrimination employment analysis instead of disparate impact. Is that kind of like a renaming per se?

Joel (17:25.319)

over my shirt maybe red

Jeremy Mancheski (17:43.31)

It's a renaming and a refiguring of analytics to make sure we're not stepping over any lines, invisible or otherwise. Title VII still exists. So companies have to ensure a non-discriminatory workforce. And if there's the concept of certification, I think the new administration suggests, what do we need affirmative action for? A company can just simply validate somehow.

Chad (17:46.864)

huh.

Chad (17:52.528)

You

Chad (18:09.189)

Mm-hmm.

Jeremy Mancheski (18:12.814)

in a process that hasn't been determined, or certify that they have a non-discriminatory workforce, I don't know how you can certify something you haven't analyzed.

Chad (18:22.32)

Yes. Yes. So it also seems like in the renaming or the retooling, let's say for instance of disparate impact. Same thing with the, the EI and every company that I've, I've talked to around this is like, what do we do? It's like, what, what, what has given you the great outcomes, right? What, what, what are you doing? I don't care what you call it, but what's best for your business. Um, whether you're going to, you know, a female heavy,

college or university, which you know, we, they're actually more females in academia today than, than there are males. You're going there. It's probably going to be heavy on the, on the female side. Again, this is all about outcomes and getting to the people that actually have the skills that you need. The question is, do we call it DEI? And my answer is always no, just call it hiring. Why do we have to put labels on all this shit? It drives me crazy, Jeremy.

Jeremy Mancheski (19:15.922)

I completely agree. Completely agree. know, one thing I've found, you DEI was never a significant portion of Autsault's business. know, affirmative action is compliance, right? DEI is sort of the like to have and often well intentioned exactly what it says it is, creating diversity, equity, and inclusion. Now, it's seemingly a bad word with this, a bad term with this administration. But I-

Chad (19:26.446)

Mm-hmm. Right.

Jeremy Mancheski (19:45.806)

I'm advising clients right now and what I'm suggesting to them is, what were your objectives to begin with? For some companies, candidly, DEI was public relations. I think it's a dirty secret of DEI. Some companies it was something to put on a website, something to appear to be welcoming, et cetera. Others took it very, very seriously. And of course there are varying degrees in between. I think it's important

Joel (20:00.458)

Hmm.

Jeremy Mancheski (20:14.636)

that companies who consider the path forward set clear objectives in their minds. What are you trying to accomplish here? And you can still do DEI that is not illegal. A great example, affinity groups. Companies had affinity groups. Now, theoretically, you can have an affinity group as long as everyone's invited. Lots of things along those lines.

Set some objectives. Make realistic, have a realistic understanding of what you're trying to accomplish and don't overstep.

Joel (20:54.965)

So we've covered a little bit of the past, a lot of the present. I want to talk about the future. What are some of the issues that you see coming down the pike? Obviously AI is changing everything, remote hybrid work. What's coming down the pike? What should we be looking for in terms of pitfalls and threats throughout 25 and into 26 even?

Jeremy Mancheski (21:15.374)

Sure. You know, it's funny. Go back even a year and AI was the hugest rage. Everyone needed it, didn't know what it was, but we got to have some unit of AI within our business, right? And AI is obviously going to be a strong driver, particularly in the HR space, for a long time. I think and I sense that the world is taking, I don't want to say a step back, because that would suggest there's some...

Joel (21:35.359)

Mm-hmm.

Jeremy Mancheski (21:43.874)

hindrance of technology or progress or whatnot. I don't believe that to be the case. But I think we're trying to be more thoughtful about how to use it, not just throw some AI against the wall and hope it sticks. I think we want to really think about it. Some of the very early adopters of any technology for that matter face the most scrutiny. I think we saw AI recruiting early on that was deemed in some instances even discriminatory.

Joel (22:11.839)

Yeah, we did.

Jeremy Mancheski (22:13.038)

And really, and I think this administration would see it even more so as discriminatory. So I think everyone's being a little more thoughtful. Everyone's a little more mindful. So yes, AI. Hybrid workspaces. Boy, we all went off the same deep end, for lack of a better term, on that during COVID. I think companies are.

Joel (22:38.677)

Mm-hmm.

Jeremy Mancheski (22:41.088)

in some respects, rethinking policies and productivity and maybe rewriting some of those policies. It's the Goldilocks effect, not too hot, not too cold and just right. think we were too hot on some of the stuff and I think we'll probably find a way that's too cold and time will tell on all this. So I don't love making big policy shifts on things like this without letting some others.

figure out the pitfalls first.

Joel (23:12.319)

Fair enough.

Chad (23:12.344)

Not too hot, not too cold, but Jeremy Manczewski is just right, my friend. So Jeremy, if somebody wants to connect with you or learn a little bit more about Outsolve, where would you send them, sir?

Joel (23:15.189)

Just right.

Jeremy Mancheski (23:25.742)

I would tell them to call me or email me directly. My email is jmancheski, M-A-N-C-H-E-S-K-I at outsolve.com. Love hearing from clients, non-clients, HR people who undoubtedly have thoughts, comments, questions, and I promise I'll answer.

Chad (23:45.484)

Even competitors, because you guys are having to, to, to really pull together in this time of change. So yeah, that's, that's awesome. And that's great to hear, Jeremy. That's awesome.

Jeremy Mancheski (23:52.79)

Absolutely. As an industry, I've been around this industry for 30 plus years now. Known some of my competitors for that long. Had competitors who are now employees and vice versa. If we can't stick together now, when are we going to?

Chad (24:11.45)

Amen.

Joel (24:12.243)

Jeremy spoke on Chad and Cheese. We out!

Jeremy Mancheski (24:17.728)

I swear I was waiting for that.

Chad (24:18.734)

So bad. So bad. We out.