EUROPE: Upwork’s €20M Bupty Bet

The Chad & Cheese Does Europe ShowPack your passports, kids—Europe just got dangerous. Chad’s rolling solo (Joel’s busy launching Cole at college), but he’s got backup: Lieven, Belgium’s royal court jester, and Stephen McGrath, Scotland’s deep-fried philosopher.

They’re tackling the big questions:

Why did Upwork blow €20M on “Bupty” (yes, that’s really the name)?

Can Denmark stop Nic Cage from stealing Viggo’s face?

Did the UK just invent “TGIF Forever” with the four-day work week?

Plus: Americans are loud, entitled, and apparently Portugal’s least favorite tourist (sorry, Chad).

👉 Europe, hold our beer.

Upwork buys Bupty, Denmark bans deepfakes, UK drops Fridays—Europe gets snarky with Chad, Lieven & Stephen.

PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION

The Chad (00:35.31)

here we go kids. Welcome to the chat and cheese podcast does Europe. I'm Chad giggity giggity. So wash.

Lieven (00:44.527)

I'm Lieven supporting my local royal family Van Nieuwenhuyze.

Stephen McGrath (00:49.482)

and my name's Stephen, not built for skiing, McGrath.

Lieven (00:52.435)

You

The Chad (00:53.218)

And on this episode, have questions. Questions like, will Upwork go full enterprise? Who is getting giggy? Can Denmark protect Vigo's async? And I don't know, which country is pushing for a four day work week? TGIF is in danger, kids. Let's fucking do this.

The Chad (01:16.192)

All right, so guess what? No Joel leaving. Don't start tearing up on me. Don't start tearing up on me. We do have another European that is stepping in to Joel's big shoes. Long awaited, heavily requested, and never, never duplicated. Who do we have?

Lieven (01:22.225)

don't know.

The Chad (01:45.1)

That's right. It's Stephen McGrath. Stephen, the first time on the show. Well, not really the first time on the show because you're on the show every week, but the first time live on the show. Well, thanks. Thanks for thanks for coming on in.

Stephen McGrath (01:57.249)

Yeah, no problem. I had to put on a bit of weight and chuck on some glasses just to make sure that the shoes were properly filled. But here I am, yeah.

The Chad (02:01.24)

Ha

probably need some lifts too, because Joe's a little taller than you are.

Stephen McGrath (02:07.094)

Yeah, yeah, I'll just jump. I'll jump.

The Chad (02:12.14)

Yeah. Yeah. So Joel, everybody, Joel's okay. Joel's fine. He's dropping Cole We all know Cole Cheesman off at college today. So he's going to IU in Bloomington. And that has been known for years, for years as one of the best party schools in the nation. I should you not. In Bloomington, Indiana, which is literally like 45 minutes from, from my house.

Lieven (02:35.699)

That's important.

The Chad (02:41.838)

when I'm there. But yeah, yeah, it's, did you guys, when you went to uni, was it all party all the time? Was it a party school?

Lieven (02:55.807)

Steve New first.

Stephen McGrath (02:56.038)

you go. I didn't go to uni mate, I'm not, I barely made it out of high school. Yeah, but I certainly went to uni's two party when I could, know, so that was, I moved to Canada when I was 16 by myself and made friends with people at universities and ended up at university parties in and around there. So, although Col Cheeseman famously

The Chad (03:00.398)

That makes two of us. I went into the military. Yeah.

The Chad (03:07.012)

Hahaha

The Chad (03:17.934)

16

Stephen McGrath (03:23.946)

does not party as far as I'm concerned. He has very much told me that that is not the case.

Lieven (03:26.633)

Hmph.

The Chad (03:29.966)

Dude, I'm gonna tell you right now. I'm gonna tell you right now. He's gonna find some of the hottest chicks he's ever seen in his life that come to the university and he's gonna start partying because I mean, again, he's just gonna follow the lead of some hot chicks and good for him.

Stephen McGrath (03:38.718)

Hahaha

Lieven (03:39.656)

You

Stephen McGrath (03:50.483)

He's already got a leg up, he's about seven foot tall with a good buzz cut let me go so he's all good, he's ready.

The Chad (03:53.806)

What about you, Leaven? Were you at a or was it? Did you have party boarding schools before you actually went to to uni?

Lieven (04:03.544)

I think it's totally different than in the US. We have very serious universities and we study from day one until the end and then we graduate and we start our careers. No, no, the first week I joined the shrink, which was the faculty club of psychologists. And I never left the pub in five years, I think. I mostly, I almost lived there, but it was fun. was fun.

The Chad (04:06.211)

Yeah.

The Chad (04:15.304)

Okay, well that

Stephen McGrath (04:25.44)

Hahaha

Lieven (04:29.683)

But I think we don't have so... It's different than in the US, definitely. But by the way, what's a little cheeseman going to study? You're talking about partying, but is he going to study something?

The Chad (04:39.318)

Yeah, from my understanding, he's looking to get into higher ed himself. So he wants to become a teacher slash professor. Joel's wife, which many you listen to the show probably know she is a professor, smart as hell. So I don't know how she made that decision with the whole cheese thing. But yeah, mean, she's she is incredibly smart. So maybe he's just following in her footsteps. We'll see. All right. Are we ready for some shout outs, Leven?

Lieven (04:46.665)

Yeah.

Lieven (05:03.711)

Hmm.

Lieven (05:11.391)

Shout out, okay. Shout out this week goes to Princess Elisabeth of Belgium. And she just got official clearance from the United States government to return to Harvard. She is doing a master two years. Harvard, yeah, that's not the biggest part of university, think. Well, maybe it is, I don't know. But while 6,000 other foreign students were denied entry, America rolled out the red carpet for royalty. So I think a little reminder to...

The Chad (05:23.448)

Harvard.

No. No.

The Chad (05:36.673)

Mmm.

Lieven (05:40.273)

The one in Florida, not all immigrants are coming to steal your jobs. Some are wearing crowns and had better grades than he probably has, but time to make America royal again.

Stephen McGrath (05:49.131)

You

The Chad (05:49.304)

So.

Well, yeah, and hopefully Belgium can help. Did they use the same red carpet that he used in Alaska for Putin and Putin's little visit?

Lieven (06:00.901)

I definitely hope so. It would be a waste if he didn't.

The Chad (06:02.926)

It'd be ecologically sound. Yeah, I think so. think so. Well, I mean, off the back of that, I've got a perfect one, Stephen. So we'll have you go last. My shout out is to American tourists. What does this have to do with Europe? You're going to find out here in a second. Reader's Digest. Yes, that still exists, kids. Reader's Digest published an article about what Europeans think about American tourists in 2025. The Upgraded Points Survey polled two...

Lieven (06:07.305)

cracked.

The Chad (06:30.606)

2,200 people in 22 European countries. That's about half the countries in Europe, about their views, including whether politics plays a role. What do Europeans dislike about American tourists the most? I'll let you guys, what would you think number one is? What do you think they do not like about Americans the most?

Stephen McGrath (06:55.958)

If I had to guess, not from personal, very lived experiences, is that they could possibly be loud and obnoxious.

The Chad (06:57.515)

Yeah.

The Chad (07:03.52)

Yes.

Lieven (07:06.643)

Yeah. But then again, that's the same with Germans and Scottish people. So.

Stephen McGrath (07:10.262)

Yeah, well, I don't know what you mean. I'm not loud or obnoxious at all.

Lieven (07:17.779)

Nope.

The Chad (07:18.658)

Yes, so loud loud. We're too loud. We're just too fucking loud. Number two is that we act entitled. That does not surprise me at all. I don't know how many times and I have some amazing friends that come over and they they visit us here in Europe and they pull out dollar bills like, you know, like a 50 or something like that. And they try to play pay with usd and I'm like, guys, they don't take that here. It's like

It's fiat currency. They take this anywhere. I'm like, no, this is not how it works. It's the euro, which literally is actually worth more than US dollar right now. But I mean, the entitled piece, right, is something that didn't surprise me. On the other hand, Europeans, what do they like about Americans? Number one, we're friendly. So we're loud, but we're friendly. That's good, because we don't get want to get thrown into, you know, German prison or something like that.

Lieven (08:16.126)

Number two, this is...

The Chad (08:16.83)

Number two, this is funny. 42 % said, because we're curious. Now this almost sounds like a throwaway. Kind of like, which one do I pick that, okay, yeah, they're curious. That doesn't seem like a real one.

Lieven (08:30.353)

It was suggested, it was like a list they could...

Stephen McGrath (08:32.776)

Yeah, tech box exercise. Yeah.

The Chad (08:32.942)

It probably was. It was a drop down. It's probably first on the drop down list. And then as for the countries that find Americans most annoying. Number five is Denmark. Number four, the Netherlands. Number three, Ireland. Number two, your people up there in Belgium. That's right, leaving Belgium is number two and number one. This really.

Lieven (08:57.556)

The Chad (09:02.87)

surprised me and then I realized I live here. Portugal. Yeah, so Portugal is the number one country in Europe that finds Europeans annoying. And I don't think that has anything to do with me.

Stephen McGrath (09:06.029)

wow.

Stephen McGrath (09:17.0)

Yeah, I mean, the list wasn't published until you lived there, is that right? Then all of a sudden it got...

Lieven (09:17.759)

That's it.

The Chad (09:21.356)

Yeah, no, that's a good point. Thanks for pointing that out, Steven, asshole.

Lieven (09:23.955)

But I think it's strange. I if there's one thing I like about the Americans, it's their dollars. If they want to wave them around, let them come, bring them on, all the dollars. But I don't think they're louder than anyone else. mean, drunk tourists are loud. Obnoxious, yeah. No.

Stephen McGrath (09:31.124)

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.

The Chad (09:34.446)

Yeah, just.

The Chad (09:41.506)

Definitely not louder than Brits. Yeah, not louder than Brits.

Stephen McGrath (09:43.573)

No, that's why England and Scotland are not on that list, right? The loud and obnoxious part is we match that, tier for tier, we're ready right there with you. I also think that the entitlement thing doesn't just come down to like, we're the US, it comes down to your communication style, which is quite direct. And lots of, I mean, the Netherlands and Belgium, they're quite direct sometimes as well.

Lieven (09:53.469)

And yeah, I'm sure. the Dutch...

The Chad (09:55.011)

yeah.

The Chad (10:06.311)

yes.

The Chad (10:11.288)

Yes, especially, yeah, especially the Dutch.

Stephen McGrath (10:13.29)

But I think other countries in Europe tend to fluff. They fluff around things. British people will gladly stand in line behind someone just because a line has formed because they think something is going to happen at the end of it. That kind of scenario. So yeah, it doesn't surprise me, but it's funny to match it against each other.

Lieven (10:14.729)

Yeah.

Lieven (10:18.345)

French.

Lieven (10:27.843)

The Chad (10:28.856)

Yeah. Yeah.

The Chad (10:38.828)

Yeah, but very good point though that the Brits were not on that list. Yes, because they are extremely loud. I know because it's August here in the Algarve and the Brits fucking flood this place for God's sakes.

Stephen McGrath (10:45.322)

Yeah.

Yes.

Well, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

Lieven (10:55.999)

when I was in Martinique on holiday, the little Caribbean island, which is French.

The Chad (10:56.44)

What? Yeah.

That's a little flex there, little flex when I was in Martinique. Yes.

Lieven (11:02.719)

Yeah, no, no, no, no, it's not flexing. It's very important. It's a part of France. And then there was an American tourist, a woman who was loudly complaining at the reception that she plugged her some air cleaner or something she brought from America. She plugged it in and it exploded because it's a different voltage. It's European system. they use, like in the UK as well, they use something weird, doesn't, whatever. So the thing exploded and she demanded.

Stephen McGrath (11:02.806)

I know, I was just...

Lieven (11:30.783)

refunds. You have to pay it because you didn't tell me that this wasn't 220 or what is it? Whatever 130. So and the people said yeah but it's not our fault that you brought in whatever and she couldn't get it. That's weird. Oh well.

Stephen McGrath (11:36.436)

Yeah, a hundred and a hundred ten. Yeah.

The Chad (11:38.136)

Yeah, one time, yeah.

The Chad (11:46.762)

And or you can't read, yeah.

Stephen McGrath (11:48.319)

Yeah.

The Chad (11:52.206)

Steven, shout out.

Stephen McGrath (11:53.921)

Yeah, so my shout out is to Gigged AI, who very recently, kind of last month or so, raised one million pounds, not dollars, because this is a European show and we're talking real money. So pounds they raised. So yeah, absolutely great work they're doing. I think we'll dive in maybe a little bit later to what exactly they're doing. But it's great to see people from the land of deep fried pizzas doing well.

The Chad (12:04.632)

Mm-hmm.

Lieven (12:23.135)

Hehehe.

Stephen McGrath (12:23.574)

in any shape or form.

The Chad (12:27.554)

my God, I can't tell you how pissed off Joel was when we went to that Chippy and you talked him out of whatever he was gonna get. I have no clue. It just, yeah. And then you said, get the deep fried pizza. He got it. He was so pissed. He was so pissed, yes.

Stephen McGrath (12:30.998)

Yeah.

Stephen McGrath (12:36.512)

Just getting a regular pizza. I told them they can't do that.

Stephen McGrath (12:45.27)

well. And the thing is, the good thing about Joe is he lets stuff go really easily and he doesn't remind you about it all the time. And it doesn't send memes about how horrible the food is or anything like that at any point, despite the fact that he eats at loads of delicious restaurants here in Glasgow. He just chooses that one to focus on. But hey, that is what it is.

Lieven (12:53.971)

Hahaha

Lieven (12:59.903)

you

The Chad (13:01.646)

Uhhh

The Chad (13:06.306)

Yes.

Yeah, I mean, and just so you know, kids, there was no sarcasm there whatsoever. Real quick, I just have to say because we generally we usually hit Paris for for for Unleash and we're going to have to unfortunately skip that this year. Sorry, sorry, Unleash World, but we're going to have to skip. We, Julie and I are going back to the US and we're prepping the house for sale.

Stephen McGrath (13:14.131)

none.

The Chad (13:37.72)

That's right. We're prepping the house for sale. So we couldn't make Unleashed this year. So sorry about that. But while we're in the U.S., we thought we'd go ahead and just make some hay while we're at it. We're going to be at Wreckfest. Steven's going to be there. He's going to be on stage. I don't know. Maybe leaving will pop up. You never know. He's so stealthy. He shows up at places sometimes and you have no clue whether he's going to be there. And he shows up like behind stage. Ask for a t-shirt. Give him a t-shirt. And then he's gone. It's like fucking ninja, man.

Lieven (13:38.939)

home

Lieven (13:56.119)

Suddenly. I might surprise you.

You

The Chad (14:07.128)

like a ninja. We're going to be at Wreckfest. So we're going to be at Wreckfest and then we're going to do three shows, RL 100 shows, San Francisco, San Diego and Dallas. So we had to fill our time since we're going to be in the US and unfortunately we couldn't go to Paris, which sucks, but hopefully we will be back there next year. How about you guys? Steven, you're going to Nashville. You're going to be on stage. We're also, little teaser here, kids, we're to have an event at where?

Where, Chicken cock?

Stephen McGrath (14:39.306)

Oh yeah, right sorry. I thought you were like pure pressuring me about the actual event there. No, we're going to the chicken coop. Is it a distillery or is it just the headquarters?

The Chad (14:48.846)

I think it's their speakeasy.

Stephen McGrath (14:52.294)

okay, well, I don't know what one of those is, because I'm not that American, but it sounds cool.

The Chad (14:59.918)

Well, back in the day, when we had prohibition and nobody was allowed to drink, there would be these little underground bars where people could go do the... yeah.

Stephen McGrath (15:15.222)

Is that the password to get in? Is that what it was? You had to knock the door and say that.

Lieven (15:15.881)

chicken cock

The Chad (15:18.35)

It might be on this one. You might have to have your very own Stephen McGrath with you just to get in. Just to get in. So yeah, again, hate that we're missing Paris. We love Paris. Next year, put that on the calendar, kids. Hopefully, we will have many, many more European shows on the docket. How about you, Levin? You going to any shows or you just going skiing somewhere?

Stephen McGrath (15:20.922)

Ha ha.

Stephen McGrath (15:25.896)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lieven (15:48.89)

Both. skiing season hasn't already started yet. No, no, I'm going to some venues, but please don't ask me which ones. I'm going to Scott for our speakers, in fact, because we're having the E-Recruitment Congress next year, 2026, and I'm looking for speakers right now. So, Steven, you joined us a few years ago in Austin, it was, I guess. Yeah. You were...

The Chad (15:50.414)

Ha

The Chad (16:05.027)

Yes.

Stephen McGrath (16:12.448)

Yeah, I did. Yeah, was, was I not voted the best speaker at the entire event or something like that? Yeah, uh-huh. That's all I remember. Yeah.

Lieven (16:16.607)

You have a great memory. I already forgot, but you still remember you were voted the best speaker. Such a memory. Anyways, I would like to invite you to be present in October, 2026 in Amsterdam, like last year. Chad was there too. Chad always is there, but it will be in Amsterdam again.

The Chad (16:23.758)

Hahahaha!

Stephen McGrath (16:26.518)

Yeah.

The Chad (16:38.552)

Yes, again, the Chad and cheese return to the recruitment Congress. can't wait. Now it's time for.

Stephen McGrath (16:38.794)

Yeah, sounds good to me.

Lieven (16:42.303)

Yeah.

The Chad (16:51.022)

All right, time to dig in. Upwork just went shopping in the Hague, snapping up Dutch platform Bubtee. Yeah, that's Bubtee for 20 million, 20 million. Born out of the pandemic to fix freelance or chaos, Bubtee now fuels Upwork's enterprise push with private talent pools, onboarding and payroll built in. Pair it with Upwork's acquisition of EOR company, Ascen.

and it feels like they're building a staffing powerhouse that doesn't want to play by the old rules. First, Ascend and now Enterprise player, Bupdi. Levin, it feels like Upwork is revving up the engines for a full global staffing play. What do you think? Do think they have a chance?

Lieven (17:38.163)

First of all, I followed the Dutch market pretty intense and I never heard about Bubty, which doesn't have to be a problem at all, but to be honest, until today or until I was preparing for this show, I didn't hear about Bubty at all. So it can't be that big. Maybe I missed the environments they hang out, but I never heard about them. And then the other one, Upwork.

The Chad (17:41.422)

Mm-hmm. yeah.

Lieven (18:04.287)

is a big better known, but still if you look at the numbers, it's not like they're competing against Adecco, Randstad or even House of HR. It's, have a revenue of, I right? About 700 million, something like that. 750, yeah. So if you compare them to someone like Randstad, 28 billion or to even House of HR, 3.6 billion or something, they're still pretty small. So.

The Chad (18:06.179)

Yeah.

The Chad (18:17.422)

750 this year so far. Yeah.

Lieven (18:31.943)

It's always interesting to see what those companies are doing because they are the growing companies and these are the ones we need to pay attention to. The others are so big that they are hardly innovating. They just buy whatever is successful. But if they buy something I don't know, then I'm getting curious. What is Bupdi doing? So I'm going to look into it because why didn't I know them if Upworks know them? So it's amazing. But they're definitely into the right business and it's all about platform economy. It's about matching platform. So we'll see.

The Chad (18:51.224)

Yeah.

Lieven (19:00.681)

But I'm very sorry I can't give you a very in-depth presentation about them because I just hardly know.

The Chad (19:06.798)

That is weird because that's your part of the world and you know tech. mean, that's your job to know tech in that part of the world. that is odd. What do think, Stephen?

Lieven (19:09.042)

Yeah, definitely.

Stephen McGrath (19:15.638)

quite a big price tag as well, isn't it? When you said they acquired Bupty and my brain said who, like everybody else is going to probably, but again, that's not necessarily a bad thing. I didn't actually know the price tag until you said it 30 seconds ago and I was kind of like, all right, wow, okay. So they classify themselves as an enterprise player. The price tag must justify that.

The Chad (19:18.19)

20.

The Chad (19:24.46)

Yeah. Same.

Stephen McGrath (19:44.029)

somewhat to be relative to where Upwork is. It looks like any sort of company that has kind of its claws into this freelance marketplace world is being taken really seriously, you know, by investors, by acquirers, you know, and that's an interesting trend that's been consistent probably since kind of last couple of years, but

But if companies are now buying the bupties, please change that name, please guys. I can't be a Scottish guy saying buptie, that's just not gonna work for me. So just something else. But anyway, buy the buy. It's interesting that that market's moving and shaking quite a lot with some of the news that we're going to talk about today.

Lieven (20:17.841)

You

The Chad (20:36.098)

Yeah, I think it's interesting because first off, they bought Ascend, which is an employer record company. And we've talked in the past about how a lot of these EOR companies could really reimagine themselves as staffing companies, but more with the technical infrastructure, right? You have a Rundstad, which we are talking about, Liden, that they've proven they have no fucking clue what to do with technology.

I mean, you have a basic bitch job board like monster, right? And you can't even get that right. I mean, it was basic. The models were basic. You could have evolved some of those models, no question to be able to kind of like come in to the same pattern of staffing, but they didn't do that. They ran them separately and that was a very simple model to be able to run. they couldn't even do that. you know, we've been talking about.

before Rippling and Deal went to war, for God's sakes, we thought those two companies would actually start to pronounce themselves as staffing organizations, right? Where they are doing everything on the down the funnel first, payroll being the hardest, right? Being able to make sure that you get the payroll right, you do everything in an app, and then you start working your way back up the funnel to where hiring is, because there's not as much money in hiring as there is on the down funnel.

Right? But those guys are, I mean, they're killing themselves right now. So Upwork, sounds like they've got an EOR and now they've got the Enterprise puzzle that's there in Bupki.

The Chad (22:16.609)

yeah, they're getting some cash. I mean, they're getting some cash out of this thing.

Stephen McGrath (22:21.546)

wonder if it's going to be a bit of a renaissance of like, know, staffing when I joined recruitment, you know, 15 odd years ago, staffing had a pretty established negative name, you know, in the industry, it was, you know, that was the bad side of recruitment, quote unquote, it was transactional, was impersonal, you didn't, you know, you didn't need to be a specialist in anything. And you just

you know, fill jobs as fast as you could. It seemed like internal TA roles were the glamour roles at that point, because you had arrived at, you know, why I now work for a company and I represent, yeah, I represent a brand and I'm, and there's maybe this kind of shift helped by technology now and the implementation of everything that we've got going on, where there's going to be a much larger.

The Chad (22:52.174)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (23:02.798)

corporate.

Stephen McGrath (23:17.558)

of monetary value either down the funnel with the payroll and things like that or the actual hiring itself where a lot of these people that find themselves out working from an internal environment might go back to being agency focused specialists that have their vertical and they know it really well and they know their candidate pool and it will be very interesting to see how that maps out in the next couple of years because

Technology obviously plays a huge part in that, but I do think you always just need people that know the market, know it well, and are able to use their connections to represent you. And that might not happen in-house, it might happen external.

The Chad (24:00.494)

Yeah, well, in I mean, at least in the UK, it seems like staffing is a part of everybody's process period, right? Unlike the US where it runs in cycles. Leven, so House of HR, I mean, you're and I think by design, you're more fragmented, right? So that you can be specialists in specific areas where Ronstadt tries to jam everything together to some extent under one brand and, you know, one focus. So with you guys moving forward,

Lieven (24:11.671)

and

The Chad (24:29.57)

You've always been incredibly tech forward. When you see these types of things happening, especially with EOR associated to it, what are your thoughts? Could House of HR start moving in that direction as well?

Lieven (24:44.732)

We are already moving in the direction, I think. One of our values is we're trailblazers, so we try to stay ahead of the pack and they can follow. And everything is moving extremely fast right now. we are, it's always buy and build, so we're constantly on the lookout for new technologies which might make a difference, but we want to buy them before they are too expensive. So actually...

The Chad (24:52.686)

Mm-hmm.

Lieven (25:08.101)

One of the very good things about this podcast is it forces us also to constantly stay aware of what's happening because I have to prepare for them. So I have to prepare for the episodes. So I need to look into everything which is happening. It's nice to see. But could you repeat your question? I've forgotten it by now.

The Chad (25:27.734)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just with House of HR, again, being more fragmented and specialized, do you see this easier for you guys to move? Because it feels like you're a lot more nimble than in a Deco or a Ron stuff.

Lieven (25:31.451)

I know. Yeah.

Lieven (25:41.417)

We still are, and that's a good thing and it's necessary. We have 52 companies and we have one holding House of HR, but all of these companies have their own marketing teams, their own IT teams to a certain extent, definitely their own sales around recruiters, they're doing their own stuff. It's like a whole fleet of little speedboats going more or less in the same direction. We try to guide them a bit, but they know their own business by heart and we bought them because they were best in class. And if they want to...

The Chad (25:45.166)

Mm-hmm.

Lieven (26:09.297)

invest in a certain technology because they feel this is going to make the difference for our clients and for our candidates, then they definitely should. And I believe in this kind of specialization. have to, they know them the best. If you are one big brand with very long communication lines, if some young enthusiast guy has a great idea by the time it reaches someone in charge, we have done it. And that's, that's a fact.

The Chad (26:34.52)

Yeah. Yeah.

Stephen McGrath (26:34.87)

It's interesting that you just said that, and this is the last I'll say on this, but I worked for Adecco, and Adecco are actually actively doing, or spent the last several years doing the opposite of what you just said. So they had specialist agencies, the Spring Engineering, the specialist white collar workers, the office angels of the world, that they just left in their own brand, with their own marketing team, with their own heads of department.

Lieven (26:49.961)

Yeah.

Stephen McGrath (27:03.828)

and actually everything is now being drawn back to a deco, and that being the flagship of you all represent us as a brand. So what from the inside scoop of people I know that are still there, quite a lot of those people feel like they've lost their brand identity and therefore their power within the market. I am no longer an engineering specialist, I work for a deco. And what that...

Lieven (27:23.847)

Exactly.

Stephen McGrath (27:32.213)

then means is that makes their BD harder because people have negative experiences with an Adecco brand, they don't necessarily have negative experiences with the X engineering brand or whatever that is. So it's interesting to see that you guys really firmly are stood on that model still when a lot of these randstads, Alexander Mans, Adeccos of the world are like, no, it's back to us, it's back home, baby, that type of thing.

Lieven (27:57.139)

Yeah, and...

And I get why they do it. mean, it's from a marketing point of view, it's so much easier to just promote one brand than to promote 52 brands. It's cheaper, it's easier. But if you buy a company because it's great, then why would you change it into something it's not? It doesn't make sense. Especially in Europe indeed. Yeah.

The Chad (28:16.59)

especially in Europe, especially in Europe, because you have all the different cultures, you have all the different languages. mean, and again, I think that's when we first started talking, Levin, and we got a chance to sit down with you and Rika and start talking about strategy. mean, that to me, as an advisor in better understanding Europe and how much different Europe is from the US that to me just seemed like pure genius. you know,

an aspect that you know, the the Deco's and the Ronstadt's were missing and to be fair around a Deco, they've also bought technology, Vetere, Hired, and they've, they've shit the bed on those two, right? So not only Ronstadt is shitting the bed with a big name like Monster, but so is the Deco with Vetere and Hired.com. Back to Upwork real quick. Yes, they are at the point and this is the thing that I think is important. We didn't really see this happening.

Lieven (29:02.825)

Yeah, but don't.

The Chad (29:13.612)

But they're seeing, because it felt like a race to the bottom with Upwork, right? Now they're getting reported record revenues. And they're starting to gin up again with an EOR and also Enterprise, Perspective Arm. Let's see what happens.

All right, and we're going to move since we have a Scott on the show today. We've tailored the content just a tad and the next story is straight out of Glasgow.

Stephen McGrath (29:38.998)

you

The Chad (29:44.514)

Yep, leaving. Did you know that 54 % of CIOs are saying staff shortages are taking time away from strategic and innovative work? I didn't know that. Well, they are apparently. And that's why gig.ai launched SIA, the AI agent. I'm sure kids you haven't heard of these things called agent yet. The AI agent that doesn't need PTO, coffee breaks or even

the need to circle back on Monday. Built on Microsoft Azure and plugging straight into enterprise tech stacks, lets hiring managers query their workplace like it's chat GPT for talent. Want to know who's free for cloud migration next week or how many Python nerds we have in our database? SIA costs that answer up in seconds after a beta with Fortune 500 companies like Lytos and Concentrics.

GIGDAI is rolling SIA out to everyone, promising ROI in under four weeks. I'm gonna say that again. Promising ROI in under four weeks in a workforce that's equal part human, contractor, and AI. With last month's, as you just talked about, Stephen, the fresh one million pounds sterling investment to scale.

CEO Rich Wilson says, this is the next step in blowing up old school hiring models. We'll go to the glass region first on this one.

Alright, Stephen, do recruiters get an AI teammate who never sleeps, or is this just a replacement?

Stephen McGrath (31:24.182)

So, look, I am the world's biggest critic when it comes to agentic technology that is not agentic. I actually hate it with a passion. I hate the marketing speak around it. I hate that quite often it's just decision tree based models with a dress on. I hate all of that. But, SIA, which is the Skills Intelligence Agent,

is from what I can see, maybe one of the closest things to legit in the market from what I've looked at from demos, from my understanding of how the technology works and kind of reading about it from things that Rich has posted and some others. You put in a request, it goes and does the work, it does it until completion and it comes back with results. that, it can then...

perhaps pass on to later parts of that process or trigger a hiring process, et cetera, et cetera. But it does what it's designed to do in totality, right? And that's half the battle because let's just put that a check and a win for tech. Where it's kind of gonna come into play, I think, right? And this is based on what I was kind of talking about earlier is with TA teams shrinking and they're just shrinking by default.

Right, like that's just, you guys talk about that every week. We all talk about it all the time. We're gonna need things like this just to supplement us somebody. But the trick will be how well can it do it? The ROI in four weeks thing, have to see about that. not, you know, I would love if it was true, absolutely. I love that kind of marketing speak. Absolutely, let's see the results.

The Chad (33:14.318)

That's pretty ballsy.

Stephen McGrath (33:21.11)

But I think, you know, in terms of whether it's going to, you know, replace people, unfortunately, that's pretty much what all of these things are designed to do at this point in time, isn't it? And they need to be, because if they're not, then it's just supplementary technology that's a nice to have that nobody's putting in their balance sheets at the end of the day.

The Chad (33:47.544)

Yeah, that's what happens when you tell me you're gonna take my job away, Stephen.

Stephen McGrath (33:48.535)

Can I just say it's really jarring hearing yourself when you're on this, like just randomly just coming out with things, things that I don't even remember saying, but anyway, we'll just keep moving.

Lieven (34:00.031)

You

The Chad (34:03.342)

What do think, Levin? This is, I mean, this literally seems like kind of a similar infrastructure, not just around hiring, but also, you know, the purposeful around staffing.

Lieven (34:15.124)

for when it's done?

ill and pregnant and all, everything. An agent is stable, 24-7 available, you don't pay taxes when it works, et cetera. So it's a problem. But you still need people, and this is a cliche by now, but you still need people operating these agents. So what we started to do is checking what do our clients need and make sure the people we put at work come in that company with a backpack filled with agents and tools and the education to know how to use them.

The Chad (34:45.74)

get sick.

Lieven (35:09.395)

And this works amazing. So we've seen a rise in salaries from 25 % for people we put at work who have these tools because they bring a new knowledge to the companies. This is only going to take, I think, two, three years. By then the companies will know how to do it themselves. But it's the spirit. We need to just set it out. But according to the World Economic Forum, there will be so many more jobs created than jobs being lost because of AI. And I so hope they're right because now

The Chad (35:19.118)

Really?

Lieven (35:40.849)

I think we have almost a moral issue. Young people not finding jobs anymore because their jobs are being taken by agents. This is problematic. And one person actually can do the job of five others if you provide them with the right agents and with the right tools.

The Chad (35:44.706)

Ciao.

The Chad (35:54.114)

Yeah, taxes.

Stephen McGrath (35:55.127)

So there's a really important thing about this that came out quite recently as well. I'd have to find the name of the study. But actually there are financial implications to letting technology have free roam of all of the things that you want it to, right? And a company like Gegged will gate that and will control that and will do it within their pricing model.

but these companies that are enterprise level that are gonna say, we'll just go out and build our own agents. If you just let that have an infinite loop throughout all of your whole tech stack and every call is 10 cents, 10 cents, 10 cents, 10 cents, and it just keeps doing that, right? It just goes into this infinite cycle. It might have been cheaper hiring that grad at a uni to do the job in the long term because yeah.

Lieven (36:44.254)

Yeah.

Stephen McGrath (36:48.704)

three months down the line, it's cost effective. Six months down the line, it's looking a bit okay. 12 months down the line, we could have actually hired somebody for 30 grand to just have a look at that. it becomes, now obviously that's at scale, but there are actual studies that I would encourage people to, I've not come prepared enough with the name. I'll post it maybe somewhere on this when I see it. But you'll go and find those studies because quite often if you're just building,

and technology that you're not buying, that's really important, right? Building technology yourself that you're not buying. Then you might be in for a world of pain down the line with somebody breathing down your neck saying, hey, what's this uncontrollable spend and what is the recruitment agent 2.0 thing that we were wasting tens of thousands on?

The Chad (37:38.444)

Gotta have thresholds. I've got...

The Chad (37:44.802)

So about 20 years ago, you guys probably remember you were in diapers, Steven, big data was a big thing, right? Everybody was talking about big data and they had so much of this data. The problem was they couldn't process through it. They didn't have what they needed to be able to process through the data. Now they have it, right? And I think for me, I've seen the same thing happening with hack a job.

Lieven (38:06.911)

I think it's for me.

The Chad (38:11.234)

Right? They're more specific to niche in tech. Started in the UK and they're really making some strides in the US. Being able to be a skills or talent intelligence platform and what that really means is it gives you the opportunity. Let's say for instance, you go and you know this, Steven, you go to your hiring manager for an intake meeting or an intake call or something like that and they give you the requirements and the requirements are shit.

Right? And they give you shit requirements. Well, if you have a talent intelligence or skills intelligence platform, you can literally pull it up on your on your phone or on their desktop and say, OK, what are the requirements? Let's look into the ecosystem, our internal database. And let's say, for instance, in this case, gigs, gig dot AI, their database as well. Let's take a look at these and see what it actually looks like. Right. they're two motherfuckers that can actually do this job.

Stephen McGrath (39:04.33)

Yeah. Yeah.

The Chad (39:06.112)

Right. So instead of wasting two weeks or a month or longer and then a hiring manager coming back to you saying, where are my people? Well, they didn't exist in the first place. OK. So you can do that in real time and have at least a market kind of like a landscape view of the types of people that you're looking for. And you can tweak that right then. Right. So you can do this. And I think gigged.

Lieven (39:17.539)

Yeah

The Chad (39:31.19)

hack a job, a lot of these companies are starting to do that. And when we see the indeed's of the world, what's that? Okay. I don't know bupkis about bupty. I know is they were bought for 20 million. But I mean, at the end of the day, I'm really excited about these types of platforms because we did have, again, 20 years ago, we were talking about big data.

Stephen McGrath (39:34.998)

Don't forget Bupty. Bupty are doing that as well. Sorry, sorry, keep going.

Lieven (39:51.968)

about these types of platforms because we did have, again, 20 years ago, we were talking about big data. These piles of data that we just couldn't...

The Chad (39:57.752)

these piles of data that we just couldn't process through. Now we're processing through it much faster. Sometimes it is costly, but at the end of the day, this to me is a problem that is being fixed at the top of the funnel instead of what Indeed's trying to do, trying to fix things at the bottom of the funnel where they shouldn't be fucking around, right? So good on these startups. Hopefully they can help some of the bigger companies do business in a much better way.

All right, we'll be right back right after this.

The Chad (40:36.662)

it goes. Will it go? There we go. All right. So this one, this segment is called Denmark's Facial. Denmark just went full face off. But instead of John Travolta and Nick Cage swapping mugs, lawmakers are telling deep fake makers, keep your tech off the Danish faces like Mads Mikkelsen and Viggo Mortensen. Stay away from their voice or even their walk.

A bill would give Danes copyright style control over their own likeness, turning every citizen into a one person IP portfolio platforms that don't play ball. They get big fines. It's Europe's first shot at protecting digital doppelgangers and shutting down the AI versions of black market face swapping. Levin, is this the first step for the EU in moving this direction or just something to make Danes feel good about their government?

Lieven (41:36.384)

I think it's an amazing idea and I hope the rest of Europe will follow and since they're so eager to launch new laws, I'm sure they will follow. But who is this going to target to impact? think in my opinion, the biggest problem with DeepFake is actually the bad guys using DeepFake for scams, for all kinds of phishing campaigns, et cetera.

And those campaigns, mean, those people, won't stop them with a law because they're already illegal and they don't care. we could. So platforms like Facebook, like Meta, like, like all the others, when they still accept deep fake videos from shady companies. see it every day when I go to Facebook, I see videos from

The Chad (42:06.946)

Mm-hmm.

Lieven (42:23.999)

I mean, deep fake videos from famous Belgian people who are telling me to invest in crypto, for example. And each time I click on reports and this is a scam and this is illegal and this is a deep fake, Facebook doesn't do anything. And it just keeps going on for weeks. So I'm sure they are aware because all the kind of people are reporting it, but they don't give a fuck because they get the money. So if this law is going to target those companies, that's great.

But if they hope to target real bad guys, I mean, not a shady bad guys like Facebook, but the real bad guys, this is not going to work. It's not going to stop criminals. It's not going to stop fraudsters. It's not going to stop even those state actors who are using fake news to, to tell Joel that Republicans are right. And this kind of stuff, but it's not a silver bullet that is slow. It's just going.

Stephen McGrath (43:12.811)

What?

Lieven (43:15.807)

It's going to put things into attention, which is good. And I like it. In fact, I don't like too many loss, but this, in this case, I'm totally pro.

Stephen McGrath (43:24.918)

Do they all have to throw their iPhones in the sea? What happens with those types of things? Because that scans your face. Does it? Is that the same thing?

The Chad (43:32.586)

It scans your face, but it doesn't automatically create deep fakes, right? So I mean, that's the...

Stephen McGrath (43:36.447)

Yeah, but I just like so there's there's the kind of thing of like, what's the trade off? That's what interests me about all of this, right? So what's the trade off? So the trade off being, hey, we don't want companies like this to create stuff. How do we control that? Right? Do people then have to upload their data so that that's stored somewhere so that the companies then can't use it? Right? Like, let me just pay. Where's Joel's tinfoil hat when you need it? Where's he got a store of those, right?

The Chad (43:42.51)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (44:03.353)

Hahaha

Stephen McGrath (44:04.79)

Let me just put that on for a second. So I'm the government and I say, hey, we're gonna stop AI deepfakes. All you need to do is upload your face, your fingerprint, your this and your that into our database to make sure that if an AI deepfake is ever registered against that, the biometric data will match and we'll stop it from happening. But I've already just done it. Right, so that's an interesting thing for me to think like, that's where my brain goes is like, how are we going to stop it?

Lieven (44:28.415)

Hmm.

Stephen McGrath (44:33.942)

Like what is the actual technology behind it? And is it just about Danish people or are we rolling out the red carpet to Harvard for just famous Danish people, right? Like, you know, there's that like, where is the line? Does it go? So that's the kind of stuff that I like to think about. My brain kind of gets a little bit sore with is like, yeah, look, it sounds lovely. And I like the idea of it. How's it going to be implemented and how are we going to monitor it?

The Chad (44:44.054)

Yeah.

Stephen McGrath (45:01.588)

and what's the real life kind of consequences behind it as well. So, yeah.

The Chad (45:04.526)

Well, even the enforcement piece, right? I mean, how are you going to enforce? And I think this is the biggest key. know, Denmark is a great, a great start and it's good on them for taking this step, but it's not enough. If, if more countries get involved, even get the EU involved, then you can start to get other countries involved. Will this stop China, Russia and North Korea from creating deep fakes of, as I'd said, Mads, Michelson or Viggo Mortensen? No, that's not enough pressure with just Denmark.

Lieven (45:27.763)

No.

The Chad (45:32.654)

There needs to be more that happens. How that actually happens from a semantic standpoint, from a logistical standpoint, I no clue yet, but I got to say big applause to these guys for going that extra mile. And big applause to, guess what? The UK, South Kimbernshire. I don't even know if I said that right. It's because they try to...

Stephen McGrath (45:50.656)

Yeah, absolutely.

Lieven (45:56.265)

South Himlenshire. I don't even know if I said that right. They're almost as as

The Chad (46:01.25)

jam sum, they're almost bad as Germans in some cases with those long ass freaking street names and whatnot. Jesus. Yeah, that's an entirely different language. South Kimbershire just broke the mold permanently locking in a four day work week. Same pay, fewer hours and so far it's working. Independent analysis shows performance improved in 21 out of 24 services turnover tanked.

Stephen McGrath (46:08.118)

Hey, you'd freak out in Wales, let me tell you.

Lieven (46:11.217)

Yeah.

The Chad (46:30.644)

And when I mean turnover, I mean people leaving, not revenue. Turnover tanked, which means people stayed. Applications spiked, go figure, and taxpayers saved nearly £400,000 a year. Central government grumbled, but with labor dropping its objections, this could be the first domino in a nationwide long revolution.

I expected this out of France, Levin, but I didn't see this coming from the UK because the UK to me has always felt kind of like a little United States, right? A little US. So what do you think? Do you think the UK will start to adopt this or not?

Lieven (46:58.124)

Yeah.

Lieven (47:05.991)

Yeah.

Lieven (47:14.731)

It's like the royal version of the US, right? But the French first of all are going to be so angry because they wanted to be first and they were so proud with their 35 hours working week and now those stupid... How do you call them? How do the French call the British? The frogs? That's the other way around. Yeah, there's a French... Okay. I don't know. They had a name too, but I've forgotten it.

The Chad (47:17.467)

Hahaha

The Chad (47:27.116)

huh.

Brits? I don't know. No, that's the French, yeah.

Stephen McGrath (47:33.526)

frogs is the other way around, yeah.

Lieven (47:37.875)

But they will be complaining, but probably they'll come up with a three-day working week. Four days is better than five, then three is better than four, something like that. We'll see. But I think it makes sense. And definitely, no, I'm serious. mean,

Stephen McGrath (47:48.054)

You

Lieven (47:55.2)

I think in ages of AI, if tech replaces 20 % of human tasks, we should see a shrinking workweek and not some kind of an expectation creep. And this is what's going to happen. If people can do the same in less time, we should allow them as long as they do whatever is needed to be done. Of course, people in boardrooms will think about they can be more productive and they can come up with more.

We have to find some kind of a balance in between, but I think four days, it's definitely fine. It's not like we're living in the, like before the industrial revolution. So I think.

The Chad (48:33.134)

Yeah, real quick, just so you know, I just did a quick look up on Gemini and the French called the British people Les Roast Beefs, which is translates to the roast beefs.

Lieven (48:42.591)

That was beefs.

Lieven (48:47.079)

Yeah, okay. The frogs and the roast beef.

Stephen McGrath (48:48.47)

I even hate it. I'd munch some roast beef right now on this podcast if you'd let me. So I'm okay with it. I'm all good.

Lieven (48:53.503)

We have it each Sunday, the Sunday roast, we love it.

The Chad (48:56.238)

What do you think, Steven? Are you gonna take this to Adam and see if he can go ahead and squeeze through the four day work week?

Stephen McGrath (49:03.784)

I've already moved to whatever it is you said. So he has to implement it by default. Look, I think everything that we've talked about today in terms of like skills intelligence, With agentic moves, with going back to find real people that can do real jobs in a task-based way. And this, like Leven says, it all links together and it all links together by default.

I just, be honest with you, I'd scrap the whole thing. know, like contracted work hours should be contracted tasks. You know, that should be, I want you to achieve X in your job role. You know, it's outcome based. And actually, if you can do in 12 hours where it takes somebody 15 to do, then you can do it in 12 hours and off you go play paddle and I'll see you later. Like, you know, that is that type of thing.

The Chad (49:45.312)

It's outcomes. Yeah. Yeah.

The Chad (49:58.914)

Amen.

Lieven (49:59.999)

Yeah.

Stephen McGrath (50:02.358)

You know, I'm probably a bit of a proponent of it because my role is pretty much entirely, you know, outcome based. Everything I do from a work point of view is outcome based. But I also have an employer that can say to me on a Monday, hey, we really need that done by Friday and it will be done. You know what I And look, sometimes that might take me 50 hours because, that, then next week it might only take me 30 to do the next thing. And it's just that that's the kind of balance that I prefer.

Lieven (50:20.905)

Mm-hmm.

Lieven (50:27.23)

Yeah.

Stephen McGrath (50:31.318)

that I like and I'm not I'm not making anything I'm not sewing the bottoms onto you know soles of shoes and I'm not you know making doughnuts for people to eat like I don't need to work in a manufacturing based environment that requires quotas and limits I just get my job done and in whatever time that takes me so I don't it's funny right and as I said this the first time we spoke on this podcast in Belgium at the

The Chad (50:31.47)

Okay.

Lieven (50:52.734)

Yeah.

Alright.

Stephen McGrath (50:59.658)

you know, eCongress is we have been talking about the same things and different things in recruitment for like 20 odd years. And it's like, sometimes it's just got a click and sometimes we've got to be the powerhouse in the industry that needs to the world, know, adopt it and move it forward. If all these, you know, all these kind of agencies and RPOs and large kind of companies

The Chad (51:16.919)

adoption.

Stephen McGrath (51:29.15)

start advocating for it, if recruitment technology providers start advocating for it, your ATS and things like that, things will start to shift a little bit elsewhere, because we'll trickle down from talent into other worlds, I think. it'll be, You ask me if I'm a fan, I'm a fan. I like the idea, but for me, jobs should always be outcome-based anyway.

Lieven (51:59.642)

Thanks for

The Chad (52:00.672)

Yep. So gents, I appreciate you both coming on. Joel obviously definitely appreciates that. I'll do that by his proxy. If anybody wants to actually reach out to you, talk a little bit about poetry, a little bit about House of HR, where you going to send them? Steven, you go first.

Lieven (52:11.743)

If anybody wants to actually reach out to you, talk a little bit about poetry, bit about the House of H.R., what are you going to say? Steven or J.P.?

Stephen McGrath (52:23.412)

LinkedIn really is the only place to find me unless you come up to my house and I'm not telling you where that is just yet. Not until a few LinkedIn messages down the line. But just please be warned that my content in there is not for everyone all the time.

The Chad (52:29.678)

Ha

The Chad (52:37.792)

If you like sing, if you like sing a Scottish man singing in the shower, then you're definitely going to want to follow Stephen McGrath. Yeah.

Stephen McGrath (52:43.124)

Yeah, hey, stop on by, baby. I got you covered.

Lieven (52:48.179)

He single-handedly made LinkedIn fun. It's content you wouldn't expect on LinkedIn and it's an improvement. So I like it.

Stephen McGrath (52:51.104)

Yes.

The Chad (52:55.746)

Yeah. So if there are companies out there who do know bupkis about bupti, leaving, they might be a good fit, who knows? Where can they actually connect with you?

Stephen McGrath (52:55.99)

There we go.

Lieven (53:07.081)

Yeah.

Lieven (53:10.727)

The biggest problem is my name. How to pronounce and how to spell my name. would say LinkedIn as well. Leven is a pretty common name in Flanders, but Flanders is very small. But Lieven Van Nieuwenhuyze, there's only one, which is very good, but you can misspell it so hard. So you probably won't find me. But if you go to houseofhr.com and you check on the XCOM or anything, there are only seven people in there. You might discover my name, Lieven Van Nieuwenhuyze.

The Chad (53:15.778)

How many Lievens are...

Is it? Okay.

The Chad (53:37.998)

There's always, it's always spelled right in the podcast notes. We appreciate it. Thanks guys. And again.

The Chad (53:50.626)

Have a good one, we out.

Lieven (53:52.137)

We out.