Exorcising Our Demons


Crazy shit has been going down, right?


What we need right now is a good exorcism but it's so damned hard to allow your demons out for everyone to see, let alone exorcise them. If you live in the U.S. or have been watching the events over the past four years the demons are out, but not even close to exorcised. The Chad & Cheese sit down with Torin Ellis for a series of very uncomfortable conversations that need to happen.


If you can't handle truth tellin' this interview with Torin Ellis might be too much for you, although it is something we all need. Sit back, listen, tweet, and do whatever it takes to unload as we all disagree, yet try to find our way back to common ground.


This Chad and Cheese counseling session is powered by Sovren, AI so smart it doesn't need this kind of drama.


Listen to episode 2.


PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by:

Disability Solutions helps forward thinking employers create world class hiring and retention programs for people with disabilities.

Chad (0s):

If you can't handle truth-telling this interview with Torin Ellis might be too much for you. Although it is something we all need. Sit back, listen, tweet, and do whatever it takes to unload as we all disagree yet, try to find our way back to common ground. This Chad and Cheese counseling session is powered by Sovren AI so smart it doesn't need this kind of drama.


Sovren (27s):

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INTRO (1m 30s):

Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.


Joel (1m 50s):

Oh yeah. Checking in with Torin Ellis on the show, everybody. Hey, how's it going? You were listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast as usual. I'm your cohost Joel Cheeseman joined as always by my faithful cohost Chad Sowash and today you asked for it by back by popular demand, Torin Ellis diversity strategist and risk mitigation, professional Torin. Welcome back to the Chad and Cheese podcast.


Torin (2m 19s):

I'm just, I'm I'm wondering how popular was the demand has been like since September of 2018, like shit three years?


Joel (2m 29s):

Not much has happened since then.


Torin (2m 30s):

It must only been like three people that said, you know, bring that kid back, I wanna here his voice again, but you know, that's when you all were a little newer in your podcasting chops and so you got more listeners now, so it's all good.


Chad (2m 46s):

Dude, dude, we, we actually had a video with you in London last year. I think you're forgetting that we actually saw each other.


Torin (2m 55s):

Nope, Nope. That was July of 2019. You are actually forgetting. So see, look how long ago that was. That's almost 18 months ago.


Chad (3m 6s):

That's a while. Why haven't you come back onto Torin?


Torin (3m 9s):

Well, I would say that, you know, I think life has been a little bit different. First and foremost absolutely appreciate the both of you just, you know, thank you for spending a couple of moments with the voice of mine and what it is that I have to do to try to contribute. I would say that part of the reason why I hadn't been on is, you know, one of you had an incredible idea of hooking me up with this woman out of Indiana, by the name of Julie Sowash and said, you know, you should have a podcast around diversity and inclusion. And at the very same time, I was starting a show on Sirius XM. So literally within like days of one another, I'm launching a show on a syndicated platform, a podcast, trying to grow both of those audiences.


Torin (3m 54s):

So we've been working for a little bit.


Joel (3m 57s):

So you've been, you've blown up since meeting us is basically what you're saying.


Torin (4m 0s):

And you had something to do with it. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, it wouldn't be, it wouldn't be right to not give attribution to a Chad and Cheese. Like literally I remember standing in London at that letter, having that conversation, we are all probably overdressed. Well, at least I know I was overdressed. I had on chinos and a button down shirt.


Joel (4m 23s):

It was hot as shit.


Torin (4m 25s):

You know, so certainly I was the one who was probably out of place if you will, but I absolutely appreciate the idea and it really has been, you know, Julia and I are now in our third year, speaking of which, congratulations, pre congratulations to you all for approaching yet another anniversary,


Chad (4m 45s):

It is four years.


Joel (4m 46s):

Almost almost four years, four years is when most marriages end in divorce, right? Fourth year is when the shit hits the fan.


Chad (4m 54s):

It's the itch. And not to mention, I don't think Joel gets any credit for Crazy and the King. I mean, come the fuck on. I mean, seriously?


Torin (5m 8s):

There's enough love to spread around the country and Western.


Joel (5m 17s):

So you're 220, 221, whatever.


Chad (5m 19s):

Joel And I thought that, you know, a weekly podcast, we would probably be hard to find enough content to have a weekly podcast going. And we were incredibly wrong. I mean, we, hell we probably do two to three podcasts a week now! What about you guys? I mean, cause you're even more focused on diversity, equity and inclusion, do you find it hard? And I would say probably over the last four years or so, it hasn't been that hard, but have you found it hard to find topics that you really want to focus on and talk about?


Torin (5m 52s):

No, I haven't. I think the harder part for me is trying to nuance some of the topics because a lot of the content, you know, when we are looking at stories of workplace aggression and bias and you know, harassment, when we are looking at those types of stories and certainly we look at positive stories as well, around culture, around inclusion, around representation, equity. But when you're looking at these stories and you're dissecting them, I find myself challenged with not with trying to not sound like the nightly news. Like think about the nightly news in any alpha city that, you know, in the US you know, a Baltimore, DC, Chicago, Miami, and Los Angeles, the nightly news news tends to start with something negative tends to be something around crime and more often than not, it tends to have a black or Brown face on it.


Torin (6m 48s):

And so I try not to fetishize on the topics that we have sounded as if I'm being racial, being angry, being one sided. So that's the bigger challenge for me. How do we pull the story and find something that's educational, something that's actionable, that we can share with our listeners so it doesn't come across as if we are only complaining each and every week.


Joel (7m 12s):

If it bleeds, it leads baby. So I assume you're pretty bummed that Trump is no longer in office and that the Dems are in control that you won't have enough news or do you think we'll still be talking about issues that we have the last four years?


Torin (7m 25s):

No, I think, you know, again, no more often than not on the show, Julie is the one who will address things that are political. I tend to stay away from the political topics only because I'm not a big fan of politics in the sense of, I understand where it sits in our, you know, life and I get it.


Joel (7m 47s):

What were you thinking during the Capitol riot? I mean, I know you're not, you want to stay away from politics, but I think everyone, regardless of what they focus on, had an opinion as they watch that happen?


Torin (7m 57s):

I have a very strong opinion I'm infuriated. And when I think about us being in black history month, you know, you think about what folks in the, I mean, pick a decade, what black people had to deal with in the twenties or the thirties. What they had to deal with in the fifties and the sixties, when they were building that civil rights era. What we've had to deal with over the last 20 years. And we still want to say that we've had progress. Think about that. Now compare what they went through in the fifties, in the sixties with politicians saying that they are afraid to vote their character, that they are afraid to vote for impeachment, that they are afraid to speak negatively about what happened on the sixth, because people may have threatened members of their family.


Torin (8m 43s):

Like how much of a coward are you? And so when you asked me, how do I feel? First and foremost, I was angry on the sixth when it was unfolding. And I'm even more angry now, knowing that people lost their life following an incompetent and ill equipped leader, that you are still propping up to be a leader, in my opinion, unwilling, to find every possible measure, to get those lawmakers out of politics that had something to do with it. And I honestly believe Joel, that that's part of the reason why the Republicans are reticent around having this trial and having this discussion because they don't want it to come to light, what complicitness they had in that.


Torin (9m 29s):

Whether it be giving people, the tours, as some have said a day or two before the insurrection happened, whether it be having inflammatory commentary on their social media, which contributed to the insurrection that we saw, whatever their contribution was to January 6th, I feel like they should be held accountable. And you can miss me with the bullshit around, you know, well, it's the same as black lives matter. No, it's not


Joel (9m 57s):

To paraphrase the great Rick James, power's a hell of a drug, right?


Torin (10m 2s):

Absolutely.


Joel (10m 3s):

So these, these folks that have been arrested, if they don't go to jail or come to justice, what are your thoughts? If that comes to light?


Torin (10m 14s):

My thought is just I'm infuriated again, it is, to me, I don't want to make it seem like what they did is worth worse than, you know, rape or murder or some of the other felonies or crimes that could be committed. But the symbolism of the crime that they committed, it is like the pinnacle. I mean, I don't know if you can create a more visible, more symbolic. I just don't know if you can do anything that resonates and vibrates around the world more than what we saw on January 6th. Like I thought about Bernie Madoff like as big as that was. I mean, I thought I even thought about 9/11.


Torin (10m 54s):

Like I actually thought about 9/11. And I said, you know, this is like one of these events where we will absolutely never forget what was going on. You won't remember one of those riots from last summer for black lives matter, but you will never forget the visual that we saw on January 6th. So when you asked, how do I feel about some of them, many of them perhaps not being convicted of the crime that they committed, knowing that people lost their life that's infuriating to me for real well. You know what, Joel, you asked me how I felt. How'd you feel?


Joel (11m 32s):

I think I went from like amusement and then it quickly turned into Holy shit. When I found out that they were going into the Capitol, that they were trying to locate folks and let me, let me sort of set the table on this. I went, I went to the grocery store and I came back and my wife was like, Oh my God, they're raiding in the Capitol. And my wife tends to be little bit prone to hyperbole, right? So I'm like, okay, they're raiding the Capitol, whatever. So I turn it on and I see flags and Trump, I'm like, Oh my God, these idiots are like outside the Capitol. And then that turned into they're breaking windows. They're going into the Capitol. They're ripping up shit. And then enventually found out they're killing people and hurting people and someone got shot.


Joel (12m 17s):

So it quickly turned into sort of a disbelief. And I guess a numbness, you mentioned 9/11. And I think there was a similar feeling as the Towers are going down of thinking, I don't really know what to think. I need to digest this for a little bit to really truly think about what happened. It's one of the worst things, that's happened to our Republic. And I feel like the Republic was pushed to the limit for the most part, it held. I think the immunities kicked in and so far, you know, I think we're, we're getting away from Trumpism.


Joel (12m 57s):

I think that the lie that he told those folks, they're finally understanding that they were led by a false prophet and that they'll slowly start to dislodge their trust in him and their loyalty in him. But it was a cult sort of situation. I was shocked that the amount of security was so low. And one of the things that when that came through my head, was if this had been a black lives matter protest, or, you know, if the black lives matter folks were in town, there would have been a military style presence around the Capitol.


Chad (13m 31s):

So it was before yeah, it was before.


Joel (13m 34s):

Yup. So to me, I thought, why, you know, why is shit so messed up that, you know, millions of people were supposed to come listen to the president and they knew what was going to be spewed at a Trump rally. Why there wasn't security there? So, you know, a lot of questions came into, came into play, but a lot of it for me initially was just, I was, I was gobsmacked and I've been digesting it. I hope those folks go to jail. I hope they come to justice. Otherwise it's going to just feel like the same old, same old, and nothing's going to be done. And I actually,


Chad (14m 6s):

Oh, before we get into that, you talk about immunities working in and how can you say that the immunities are actually coming in when we don't even know if this asshole is going to be convicted or not. We don't even know if these assholes who stormed the capital are going to be thrown in jail and actually being held accountable for something that they were responsible for, that they actually did. I do not believe. And I'm not going to fucking white coat this fucking shit and say that, Oh, everything is fine. The Republic is fine. Bullshit. We need to hold individuals accountable and set precedent. If we don't do that, the immunities have not fucking kicked in.


Torin (14m 47s):

Let me say Chad, you know, it's not fine. Because again, if that were to happen at said, logistics company or said hospitality company or said restaurant, and I can go down the list, if that were to happen at any of them, we'd have two phrases forward. We'd say someone or some someone's went postal, that's number one. And number two, it'd be all over the nightly news. And of course they would be held accountable especially if it were people inside of said organization. So for professionals to excuse that behavior, because it happened at the Capitol and not their business, they're disingenuous.


Torin (15m 33s):

And for me, it causes a fracture in their character. And I am not willing to sit side by side with people that I know are supportive of advocates of racist, like behavior. What we saw was nothing more than a racist, like behavior. The protests, you know, the presentation and the speech, I'm cool with that, but marching down and doing the bullshit y'all need to be held accountable.


Joel (16m 2s):

When I say immunities, let me clarify what I mean, I meant more election immunities. So the votes still did go through the electoral college did still, go through Trump didn't interfere the election, but that's what I mean by the, the immunities, that the system, the electoral system that we have set up held, which is why I say the immunities kicked in.


Chad (16m 25s):

This time. That's the problem. We have so many areas of gray that we need to turn into black and white because Trump did nothing but playing the fucking gray.


Torin (16m 35s):

Stress tests.


Chad (16m 36s):

Yeah. He stress test the entire fucking system. So no, the immunities barely kept us alive. Barely kept us alive.


Joel (16m 44s):

But it passed.


Chad (16m 45s):

You're trying to fucking gloss over this shit. Dude. My biggest issue is that we are not holding people accountable that is not passed until we start doing fucking perp walks. This shit isn't, this it's not good enough. And this is not about being militant. This is about somebody who actually committed a crime to be held accountable and to set precedent so that we know that this shit cannot happen again.


Joel (17m 10s):

When you say perp walk, are we talking Trump? Him too?


Chad (17m 13s):

I don't think he would. I don't think anybody would perp walk a president, even though they should. But all those motherfuckers who are found guilty, yes. Perp walks, period. What do you do? What do we do to be able to continue to fuel this so that it's not tamped down?


Torin (17m 32s):

Yeah. It's one action at a time. And I don't know if there's a prescription, a universal prescription. I should say this. Isn't like going to the local pharmacy and knowing that, you know, an aspirin is going to cure the headache. I think that this is a multilayered. It is an absolute contextual approach required. Every individual has got to find a way to do something I've said to you all before that you have to exercise. Pardon me, your voice in that you have to speak up, but that you have to do that on social media. You have to do that in conversations you're having with your clients and vendors. I think it comes down to every single individual, finding a way to, you know, to tap into that humanity and say enough is absolutely enough.


Torin (18m 19s):

Like we have looked at far, far, far, too many injustices. We've been silent for far too long. This is just not something that we can support. We can't support a 1776 project and not be willing to support a 1619 project. There's just so many things, Chad, when you asked me, what can we do? What can you do to support black history month? I mean, it's absolutely more than a tweet. It's more than an Instagram posts, but, but what are you doing if you're not even doing that, it's making sure that you are on track to live out the declaration or the promise that you made last June when George Floyd lost his life, a number of organizations were quick to jump out and say what it is that they were willing to do, what it is that they were not going to stand for.


Torin (19m 4s):

Fine. How have you lived out that experience over the last, you know, 10 months or so? Eight to 10 months? My point is you have to do something. We need every single person rowing in the boat that says we are going to do a better job of, you know, socializing, humanity period. And this is not a zero sum game. There is more than enough for all of us. I just don't think that we can afford to be silent anymore. Stay tuned for episode two coming soon.


OUTRO (19m 31s):

Thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast with Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of Shout Outs of people, you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any hoo be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode.


OUTRO (20m 16s):

And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. Is so weird. We out.

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