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Firing Squad: Talk’n’Job's Markus Krampe

Automating the application process is pretty popular these days. From companies like Paradox to Humanly and others, allowing job seekers to submit their information by tapping a screen or talking into a phone is becoming big business. Then along comes Germany-based Talk’n’Job who believe they've built a better mousetrap, and they've even won a competition that says they just might. CEO Markus Krampe joins the boys in a lively Q&A to get to the bottom of things and whether or not Talk’n’Job has what it takes to compete on a grand scale. Do they survive the Firing Squad? Gotta listen.


Joel Cheesman (00:22.374)

Here we go everybody. What's up? It is the Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co -host, Joel Cheeseman. Joined as always, Chad Sowash is in the house. And this is Firing Squad as we welcome Marcus Krampe of Talkin' Job. Marcus, welcome to the podcast.


Chad Sowash (00:31.618)

What's up?


Markus Krampe (00:34.845)



Chad Sowash (00:37.282)

Krampus, baby, Krampus.


Joel Cheesman (00:40.39)

Only the Germans can fuck up Christmas like that. Scare the shit out of kids. It's all good. It's all good.


Markus Krampe (00:40.509)

got a cramp. Hi.


Markus Krampe (00:46.333)

Right. Well, actually, that's a Swiss one.


Chad Sowash (00:49.748)

it's Swiss. Blame the Swiss. I see how it works. I would say it was New Sudetenland's fault. Yeah, no, I get it. Okay, no, it's good.


Joel Cheesman (00:50.31)

the Swiss. There you go. Germans. Let's blame the Swiss. Let's blame the Swiss.


Markus Krampe (00:51.837)

Yeah, sure, I mean...


Joel Cheesman (00:57.895)

All right, Mark, Margaret's calling in from where in Germany?


Markus Krampe (01:01.917)

Heidelberg. Some of the Americans should know that one. Yeah, that was pretty known at the moment underwater. But otherwise, all pretty fine. Yeah.


Joel Cheesman (01:02.982)

Heidelberg, Heidelberg. Very cool.


Chad Sowash (01:03.234)



Joel Cheesman (01:10.246)

I'm sorry to hear that. Sorry to hear that. So, so before we get into the nitty gritty of the business, our listeners probably don't know who you are. Give us a little bit about Marcus. What makes you tick as a human being?


Chad Sowash (01:13.506)

Sorry to hear that, my friend.


Markus Krampe (01:25.469)

What makes me tick as a human being? First of all, I'm a pretty old one, 55 already. Coming from southern Germany, had international studies right from the beginning, also stayed a year in the US. I was in 87, that was a pretty long time ago. Then, yeah, at US as well. Good.


Joel Cheesman (01:42.534)

It was a good year.


Joel Cheesman (01:47.398)

We're a tick younger than you, but not by much. Not much.


Chad Sowash (01:50.946)

Not much, yeah.


Markus Krampe (01:51.613)

Not that I wanted, like my sister. Now then, started working in retailing for 12 years, really from the floor up to head of strategy for the different countries. From there on, I wasn't that much comfortable with it.


Joel Cheesman (02:07.142)

Alright Marcus, we asked for a Twitter bio, not war and peace. Alright, let's get to the rules of the game, Chad. Tell Marcus what he's won today.


Markus Krampe (02:10.781)

Twitter bio. No, no, no, no, that's fine.


Chad Sowash (02:19.138)

Well, Marcus, this is how firing squad is going to go. My friend at the sound of the bell, you're going to have two minutes to pitch talking job at the end of two minutes. We're going to hit you up with about 20 minutes of Q and a, so be sure to be concise. Are you going to get hit with the crickets, which means tighten up your game at the end of Q and a, you will receive one of these from the both of us. A big applause.


That's right. Look who's talking was a box office hit and we predict talking job will be too. Golf clap. Now look who's talking to the sequel. Wasn't a box office hit. Neither is talking job, but it's respectable. So good luck. And last but not least, the firing squad. Look who's talking now. The third installment of the movie, Trility, should have never been filmed and we're feeling the same about talking job.


Back to the writer's room, my friend. That's how it's gonna go. Are you ready?


Markus Krampe (03:20.221)

Yeah, trying it.


Joel Cheesman (03:21.158)

All right, Margus, your two minutes starts right now.


Markus Krampe (03:25.181)

Yeah, okay. Okay, we are talking job, a voice driven chat application means a new channel for applying, taking out all the barriers of the process means people see it somewhere on the QR code on a link, whatever, get into that one. Through a digital avatar, the questions are being for the job profiles are being asked, and the people can respond verbally in whatever language is preset.


Why is this important? Because our focus is on blue color, blue color young professionals. So basically everybody not using traditional channels anymore and wants to have it fast. This is the side of the product story. And then for the corporates, we are almost integrated in all the ATS, which is quite good. As we are the first one, what Mike doing this, some of the large ones have even asked us to get integrated in order to serve the purpose. That's it.


Joel Cheesman (04:24.23)

Fair enough. You had about a minute to go, but we'll, we'll take points off at the end of the show. Marcus, I always ask about the name. So it's you have talk and job or talk and job or like, isn't that a little bit confusing? And by the way, Shprekin is talk in German. So was like Shprekin and job or something, not an option. Talk about the name, the Genesis of it and, and, justify it for me.


Markus Krampe (04:52.189)

The genesis, okay, our corporate has been called apply that at the time we are still very head orientated meant we wanted to have something for the unit. New generation means a generation that and that we have seen as kind of an umbrella of whatever we are going to develop because the voice chat application was kind of the first thing we wanted to do as we have basically we have seen.


that there is AI on the market. We have seen that the voice recognition is now that far that you could use it in business life. And therefore, that was kind of our vision, saying, OK, this is the first B2C product in AI, not only like Alexa put the light on, but something really where people could experience on their own because they were talking about themselves. So that is the theory.


Joel Cheesman (05:36.582)

Mm -hmm.


Markus Krampe (05:46.429)

The fact is that AI isn't that far in recruiting. The solution itself towards the candidate needs to be 100 % safe. That's the point why we're now focusing on the other ones.


Joel Cheesman (05:57.702)

We're Margas for talking about time about the name, not not the product, just the name itself. So, so a couple, a couple of questions. Like if I go, if I go to, if I go to talk hyphen in hyphen job, it's a blank page. Is that you? And also, there's apply, apply Zed or z in America, dot com. Like what is that? Is it confusing? Talk about that.


Markus Krampe (06:02.749)

and then at.


Chad Sowash (06:04.642)

concise, concise.


Markus Krampe (06:11.261)

You won't find it.


That, that, that.


Markus Krampe (06:21.181)

I know that was what I said in the beginning. I mean, applies that was the first, the umbrella in the U S we have an incorporated company, which is called Tork and job. yes, in, in terms of, communication, it's kind of confusing with the hyphens, but actually we don't care. that is a point. It looks pretty, no, it looks cool. It's, it's, it's a cool brand and it was coming from Tork and go.


which had nothing to do with recruiting. And after two weeks, we were changing to Target job because it was a brand that was saying something and it looked cool and full stop. That was it. So basically we're always doing what?


Joel Cheesman (07:00.006)

So, all right, so I'm going to give you a chance to gloat here. We first, I think, met at Unleash where you won the 2023 Startup Award. Talk about that. Talk about who else was in there, what was sort of the defining factor that got you guys that award and what did you win?


Markus Krampe (07:20.477)

Well, basically, why we won, why we got there was because we had a product that was easy to understand and easy to communicate within a sentence or two sentences. That was basically that also because we had market traction for that time over 150 customers because we had a real purpose and the people were using it. And that was, and we are highly scalable on an international basis. So this is what I've asked after.


at the end and that was a point where we were kind of unbeatable and also because Caroline was presenting, that was three minutes and she did it in 259.


Joel Cheesman (07:58.694)

Caroline is the marketing person for the listeners that don't know.


Chad Sowash (07:58.946)



Markus Krampe (08:02.013)



Chad Sowash (08:03.458)

just in case you don't know. So I just want to provide some clarity here. So talk end job with the letter N, end job dot com does not resolve. You guys don't own that. Is that correct?


Markus Krampe (08:14.365)

Yes, we own that one. We own that. Yeah, sure, as a logo.


Chad Sowash (08:17.474)

You do own that one. Okay. So talk, talkandjob .com takes you to apply Z. It doesn't take you to talk and job. It takes you to apply Z page.


Markus Krampe (08:29.341)

Yeah, that is now because we're changing the homepage and we're still a small startup, still it's constantly in need of money. So we have some in -betweens. So yes, we know that is kind of rotten, but can't change it because some other priorities at the moment, but we know it doesn't, it isn't perfect. So.


Chad Sowash (08:34.562)



Chad Sowash (08:42.146)

Mm -hmm.


Chad Sowash (08:47.778)

Okay, okay, okay. I just want to get through that, just from clarity standpoint. So the QR code, is that the only way to get into the application process? Do I have to scan a QR code and then go through the application process then? Or is there a different way to do that?


Markus Krampe (08:52.925)



Markus Krampe (09:05.981)

Well, we are digital tool. That means we come into our application via a link, a URL. And the QR code is nothing else but a translated URL code. The QR code is pretty good for retail companies or let's say multi -site companies because then they could use that one as something new for the people to apply to get the attention. And that's why it's


Chad Sowash (09:13.57)

Mm -hmm. Okay.


Chad Sowash (09:18.882)



Chad Sowash (09:24.482)

Mm -hmm.


Markus Krampe (09:34.813)

it's working so brilliantly. Otherwise we are good for every single touch point you have with a candidate because you can put a link on that one and claim as well here. This is new, a cool voice and mobile phone apply now in two minutes. So there's a lot about marketing.


Chad Sowash (09:53.09)

Okay. Okay, so options. So if I'm going, if I am online to see the job, do I have the option to apply just through the regular old process and then apply by voice? Is that how you generally do it? Okay.


Markus Krampe (10:08.989)

Yeah, yeah, because we don't want to take something away. Actually, it's simply as we said, for the people not using the traditional channels anymore, and they want to have different stuff. And then we have brilliant use cases like with the NHS, for example, that opened you new candidate pools.


Chad Sowash (10:13.026)



Chad Sowash (10:17.282)

Mm -hmm.


Chad Sowash (10:22.338)

Gotcha, I gotcha.


Chad Sowash (10:26.402)

Okay, so where does the content live? Do you actually have a tech stack that has a CRM involved where you keep that data and then you transmit it into the applicant tracking system through your integrations or does it just go directly from the application into the applicant tracking system?


Markus Krampe (10:39.164)



Markus Krampe (10:44.285)

It goes basically directly from the application into the ATS. So we are into the ATS with an RP. That means once people create a job, in the same time, a dedicated link to this job is going to be created. That one is being communicated by the companies, either on or offline, wherever. And then once somebody is applying via that one, it goes right to the dedicated candidate ID.


Chad Sowash (11:11.522)

Okay, so at that point, do you, because obviously this is going into their applicant tracking system, which is not voice enabled. So the, do you transcribe it and then push the transcribed information into the system? Number one, that's how you do. Okay, so number two, what happens because these applicant tracking systems, I've known, I've worked with them for 20 plus years. They break all the goddamn time. They're under maintenance. They suck to be able to try to use from an API standpoint.


Markus Krampe (11:23.197)

Yeah. Yeah.


Chad Sowash (11:39.01)

So when that happens, if you're not actually housing the data to be able to project into it later, how do you... It seems like you could prospectively lose candidate data because the applicant tracking system was having problems. How do you rectify that?


Markus Krampe (11:53.053)

No, it's going to be hosted first on our system. That means on the cloud here in Germany, on the telecom cloud. And then by our API, we do have the data transfer. And then people, I don't know how strict the data protection is in the US. Here, people want to delete the data like five days later. So I mean, we're doing whatever a customer wants us to do.


Chad Sowash (11:59.618)



Chad Sowash (12:04.226)

Mm -hmm.


Chad Sowash (12:14.686)

yeah. Right.


Gotcha. So there could be a perspective lag, but you have the data long enough. And then once you see a successful push of that data, you know, whatever the storage time is, you can just go ahead and delete it after that. Okay. Okay.


Markus Krampe (12:31.549)

Yeah. Yeah. And that was also, we were always going on speed simplicity. And that was one of the points let's have as less information to pass because this is like now we're going to have the least problems for that easy. And I've never heard from now on that we had problems with the data transfer into the ATS. I mean, you know, success factors.


Chad Sowash (12:38.146)



Chad Sowash (12:42.69)



Chad Sowash (12:47.554)

Mm -hmm.


Markus Krampe (12:59.261)

We even had large companies who implemented success factors in the blue color sectors just for us because we made it possible working with blue colors because we don't have these registration forms and all that.


Joel Cheesman (13:06.438)

Got it.


Chad Sowash (13:10.242)



Mm -hmm.


Joel Cheesman (13:13.606)

So you mentioned money and not entirely bootstrapped you guys have raised about a million bucks Is there a plan to raise more money? What did that? Money go for I mean it looks like you had a pretty good headcount increase Two years or so ago, but you haven't grown headcount much in the past year What's the money going toward and are you gonna raise more?


Markus Krampe (13:39.165)

Yeah, how are we going to get, how are we going to raise more? If you have an idea, just tell me. Because just to give you, just to give you an idea, I mean, we're talking about the German market, not the U S market in terms of size. But the first full year we had 1 million ARR and 150 customers, multi -lash with customers. They call Coke, all the big retailers. We didn't get money. And that was both people because that was a year and one and a half years ago when the market was simply down.


Joel Cheesman (13:43.814)

So you're looking to do it, it's just tougher then.


Chad Sowash (13:43.842)



Joel Cheesman (13:51.75)

Mm -hmm.


Chad Sowash (13:52.13)

Yeah. Yeah.


Markus Krampe (14:09.245)

And then we had all these customers and we needed them to care about them instead of putting more focus on the sales side, which means you didn't have the growth anymore, which means you weren't interested, interesting for the VCs anymore. So what we're doing, what we're doing now, what we did in between is we do have a private sponsor. First of all, thanks to him. Then we were taking loans or credits and some convertibles. So this is how we.


Joel Cheesman (14:23.43)

Got it.


Markus Krampe (14:39.069)

were surviving the last one and a half years. Now heading for break even by Q3, Q4. And that's basically it. So that means last year or last seven, eight months, we were really optimizing all the processes, really made it 100 % scalable. And all we now need to do is to scale up and look for money. First for Germany, we would look for like,


3 million in order to take that market. We have, as you have said, we have met in the US. We were heading for the US and got UK. It is like it is because we had the largest customer there, the NHS National Health Service with tremendous success. But we still have our office in the USA. But for that market, this we have, we need much more money. So it would be fine for the European market with.


Joel Cheesman (15:34.598)

Okay. So you are, you are looking and if, if, if anyone out there knows anyone, let, let Marcus know, who, who's your competition? I mean, you have, you have conversational AI, you have companies like vet humanly who just, bought, you know, acquired, teamable. Like, who do you consider your competition? Is it just the people in the German market? Is it more global? Talk about the competition.


Markus Krampe (15:40.925)



Markus Krampe (16:01.661)

Well, as we define the market, we actually don't really have competition. I mean, like if we define it. In fact, still we are in competition with everybody who is collecting candidates. So the closest we could get is WhatsApp applications if we are only focusing on the point attracting and getting the people in.


Joel Cheesman (16:08.134)



Markus Krampe (16:26.749)

We are also very much focused and that's why we are successful on attracting the people. And again, we are focused on blue color. This is why at the moment we don't care that much about AI. Doesn't mean that we are not developing stuff, but given the fact that we're focusing on easy jobs and something that works a hundred percent and doesn't give any stupid questions in between, that is fine. So.


In order to install, because you have also talked about Olivia, Olivia is from whom again? From Paradox. This is a bot, but this is for the maintenance. I mean, you already need to have the candidates, but we are the step ahead getting the people in. And this is where we are good at. We are good at getting the customers.


Joel Cheesman (17:01.862)

Paradox. Yeah.


Chad Sowash (17:02.85)



Joel Cheesman (17:20.23)

Do you, do you feel like a paradox customer could also use your service? Cause to me it doesn't, but you think that you could use both services. Okay.


Markus Krampe (17:25.725)

Yeah, definitely.


Yeah, well, it is also the case we do have some ATS delivering or offering on their own some WhatsApp and using and companies or their clients using our solution. So we don't.


Joel Cheesman (17:41.574)

Okay. You mentioned you're very German focused right now. You have a UK version of the site. What's the rollout plan, the go -to -market strategy for the rest of the world? Are you going to be in Europe for a while? When's America come on the radar?


Markus Krampe (17:57.425)

Yeah, last year. So that's why we have done the German accelerator because we were that much convinced of the US market and also in terms of the investors because they're much more growth oriented as the Europeans are more on tech technology. But there we have simply seen with such a small team and such small money, it doesn't make that much sense. I mean, therefore we were focusing on getting to know the people like you or


Jerry Crispin or whoever. So this is definitely a market we want to do as soon as we get the money. Pretty easy. In the meantime, we're taking whatever is there. If we do have large customers, we're going to roll out there. But the focus is more on the larger companies and for sure Asia. Asian markets are made for us.


Chad Sowash (18:47.714)

So Asia, the US, and Europe. That's what I'm hearing thus far. Is there a central focus on how you roll out into those areas and go to market to those areas?


Markus Krampe (19:00.989)

As I said, I was doing internationalization in retailing and what I've learned is that you need to have a local offices. It doesn't make any sense to have for this kind of job because recruiting and all that is a very local business. You need to have your own business down there. You need to have a common understanding of what are we selling, but the understanding of the culture and all that one for sales marketing needs to be there. We do have a scalable product. That is fine in all the languages.


Chad Sowash (19:05.218)

Mm -hmm.


Markus Krampe (19:29.405)

So that means from there on whenever we would have money would put 15 people in there and just start in the business at the moment is getting the large companies or corporates in here that are International and that's what we're doing and then with them we are going on in international markets, but


Chad Sowash (19:48.962)

So how do you go, how are you actually pushing out, how are you executing your go -to -market? Are you going directly after brands or are you partnering with these applicant tracking systems and white labeling the technology?


Markus Krampe (20:02.909)

So the blueprint was actually done here in Germany after the pandemic crisis, because what we did, we were going for brands and we were going for retail brands. Why? Because they had the QR codes and put it all in their windows. And from there on, we had other companies, CEOs, whomever who have seen that. And that is why we do have a B2C strategy always in terms of communication, because like that, if the future customer doesn't understand what it is for, they understand the purpose.


Chad Sowash (20:14.21)

Mm -hmm.


Markus Krampe (20:30.365)

And that's how we got a lot of inbound. Now we're doing because we are the first one in worldwide doing that. We needed to go on trade shows. So that was fine. And then you get eligible for the ATS. And as I said, there was smart recruiters, that's cornerstone. There is SAP who were looking for us. That means we did something right. And after that, you get all the acknowledgement. I mean, all the awards we have done for easy and cheap marketing. I've got some 16 of them.


Chad Sowash (20:39.358)



Chad Sowash (20:56.45)

Are they selling your product though? I mean, are they selling your product?


Markus Krampe (20:59.997)

the awards.


Chad Sowash (21:01.89)

Now, I don't care about the awards. I'm talking about the actual are smart, smart recruiters success factors? Are they selling your product?


Markus Krampe (21:03.805)

No, no, no. The ATS, there was the Austrian railway coming up saying, we have seen your strategic partner of cornerstone. That is the point. And then with smart requires, we're planning some actions. And I mean, SAP success factors around the corner from Heidelberg. So getting to know the people. And then you had, that was really, that was kind of an honor that we've been one of the four cool vendors in the Gartner report.


Chad Sowash (21:26.082)

Okay. Okay.


Markus Krampe (21:33.789)

something we couldn't even. So that's coming back to the large companies again. And that's more the point. First awareness and then getting into the sales. This is how we started. Five. Pretty small.


Chad Sowash (21:43.522)

Okay, so how big's your sales team? How big's your sales team?


Five people. So you are looking at trying to target the US, but huge GDP. Obviously, Germany has a big GDP as it is. And then Asia pack, which is a huge GDP. But all three of those are much different from a culture standpoint. And then obviously, you know how they interact. So so that's interesting from a go to market standpoint. Talk a little bit about your exit. What are you looking to do? Because it feels like.


You are like a new age, kind of like almost like bandaid to a lot of these applicant tracking systems who have horrible application processes that you would fit in very well with. You spout out a lot of these core system names. What's what's the actual exit look like for you guys?


Markus Krampe (22:35.485)

Actually, there are a lot of scenarios. And what we're not doing is targeting on one, because at the time, we want to make that baby big. Like my own vision is like in three years time, if somebody enters a bar, he just needs to ask, where's the target job? Because he implies there's an easy recruiting tool. Anyhow, sometimes the time is right, because you're too small or the others are too big, you need to sell. So we have divided our corporate development in different steps. First of all,


Chad Sowash (22:38.594)

Mm -hmm.


Markus Krampe (23:04.957)

That one was really getting the awareness, getting integrated in the ATS. What now happened? So we are established and we have raised the market entry barriers for others. So now we are upgrading our system horizontally towards white color as soon as AI is good enough for that one. And there actually, I don't care if we have to develop it on our own or we get...


or that could be the opportunity for somebody who's well -funded to buy us on that side, or we're going to buy it. I don't care. Simply, we need to have it because we already have the customer access. That is the most important thing. All the others are focusing on technology. I mean, we might then be second best. Yeah.


Joel Cheesman (23:48.518)

Hey, Marcus, Marcus, walk me through, just visually or how this works. So your bar example, where's your talking job? Okay. Here's our QR code. Scan the QR code, go to a landing page. And then there are questions in text format. Like tell me about your experience. And then you click record. The video comes up or is it not video? And then I, I give my answer in audio format.


And then do you transcribe the, the, the audio and does that audio and text format go into an ATS or some sort of dashboard where I can search and, and kind of like pre -screen or match to the job? Like talk, talk me through that process.


Chad Sowash (24:28.258)

the text.


Markus Krampe (24:34.845)

OK, people see there is a new way of applying either by a jar code or link. Click on that one being right in our application. So that means no landing page in between because that would disturb. And there is no registration. There is no download. Simply, they see the avatar. It's been a customized avatar of the company. Then they click through the data protection. And the language depends, as I said, to the presetting on the phone. So whenever it's


Joel Cheesman (25:02.15)

Mm -hmm.


Markus Krampe (25:03.357)

When presenting in Spanish, the entire interview would be in Spanish, and customer would get the automatic translation. And then they are being asked the pre -qualifying questions for the job profile. Typically, we do have between 7 to 11 questions, because if we have not enough, that goes on quality. If we have too many, we do have less conversion on that one. And.


That is the educational part. We need to talk to the companies that they really ask only the most important question that they would ask for a pre -qualification. And after that, until then, it's all about employer branding, really getting the people in. And then we're asking for the contact details. And that is then the application which goes into the ATS.


Joel Cheesman (25:51.366)

So, so the, the, the avatar says, tell me about your previous experience. I click record and then I've audio my answer into the phone. It's not a video thing. Right. And then I audio and then like I'm done click done. And then that, that answer goes into the database and then like, what's the next question the avatar asks. And then when you're done, it's like, okay, got it.


Markus Krampe (26:01.821)

Yep. No.


Markus Krampe (26:10.205)

Exactly. Either you're either you talk or you're right. So no barriers on that side.


Joel Cheesman (26:14.726)

Got it.


All right. Okay. So that's interesting because one of my questions was in terms of sort of, people with disabilities, right? If I have a speech impediment, how do you plan for that? obviously text only does plan for that, but are there, do you, in terms of disabilities, do you feel like you've covered all your bases on that? Or do you still feel like there's some hurdles with people who may have issues with seeing, talking, et cetera? Hard of hearing. Yeah.


Chad Sowash (26:42.21)

Hard of hearing, yeah.


Markus Krampe (26:43.837)

In that case, if they can't hear, we are out of that business. But if somebody is blind and he's able to use his phone, that should be no problem. And all for the other disabilities as well. Not only physical disabilities, but sometimes you have people who simply cannot write for whatever reason. And then what we have heard here is at the unimpeded,


Joel Cheesman (27:06.338)

Mm -hmm.


Chad Sowash (27:08.002)

Mm -hmm.


Markus Krampe (27:13.661)

employment agency that people nowadays are afraid of calling, really physically talking to people and they would be out of the process as well. So this is what's been implied.


Joel Cheesman (27:20.39)



Joel Cheesman (27:28.294)

So that is an issue for sure. And you'll come up in terms of legislation in some countries, I'm sure that'll make that more challenging. But I want to ask about your revenue. You mentioned 1 million in the first year. I don't know if that's euros or dollars. What's your current ARR or MRR? And you're almost profitable, you said.


Markus Krampe (27:43.773)

You're right.


Markus Krampe (27:48.749)

The current ARR is at 1 .3 euro, that's like 1 .4, 1 .5 in the US, but the real part in there, you could see what we have done. I mean, due to the fact we had not enough people, we needed to churn the smaller companies. So we had a churn up to 25%, but still we managed to raise our NRR from 85 to 105 again. That means although we had quite some churn for the people we decided to get off,


With the relevant companies, we managed to upgrade them. Because why? They start pretty small and then they roll it out throughout the company through different job profiles in other countries. And that's what you then need the people for. Which is sad.


Chad Sowash (28:37.858)

So so we're seeing LLMs, especially with voice. They're coming very quickly, right? And the the way that tech is moving, just the velocity of tech today is crazy. So there are going to be go figure competitors that are going to be popping out of the woodwork, which means you need to do one or two things. You're going to become a feature. Or you're going to create a platform.


So the question is, what are you going to do? Are you going to stay as being the best feature in this space and hope that you get acquired? Or are you going to go down funnel and start creating a platform?


Markus Krampe (29:19.005)

That's funny that you're saying that. And maybe I'm not choosing the right words, but currently we are working on that issue with some partners because we're trying to kind of establish some kind of virtual ATS. Means best of breed of whatever is on the market, most likely startups. Because what it is, or take it from retailing, it's like a shop in a shop system. Because like this, we can take the sales power of each and every single company and also like the brands.


Chad Sowash (29:35.33)

Mm -hmm.


Chad Sowash (29:46.882)

Mm -hmm.


Markus Krampe (29:48.317)

Like our strength is really to enter the market and get into the systems. And then you need to cover the entire recruiting process. That means that we are cooperating with people doing Google Ads, social media, people doing home pages afterwards, having later communication with WhatsApp, for example. All this to ease the entire process, to have one experience for the candidate, candidate first, really.


Chad Sowash (30:04.386)

Mm -hmm.


Markus Krampe (30:18.173)

But then also the customer has only one touch point and that we are integrated all into the ATS. It means you have all the layers of different features which will then be integrated in each and every ATS. So that was basically also what you were mentioning in the beginning.


Joel Cheesman (30:30.79)

Chad, this sounds really, really expensive. I don't know about you. This sounds really pricey. Marcus, what kind of pricing can a company expect using your service?


Chad Sowash (30:35.97)

Yeah, cool.


Markus Krampe (30:43.325)

Pretty transparent. Our pricing is based on the plant hires per year. In the area where they use us, that means if somebody plans to hire 1 ,000 people next year, it's going to be 1 ,000 times 25 euros. So quite easy. The larger, the less, the larger, the less. And like that, we are able to mirror the size and the budget of the companies. And we kind of never have any issues in selling.


Joel Cheesman (31:01.702)



Markus Krampe (31:12.925)

that way. And it also, I mean, otherwise I would need some controlling who did you, who did you hire and whatsoever. And that always gives a bad mood and I need more people. Both things I don't want to have.


Chad Sowash (31:22.594)



Joel Cheesman (31:24.774)

All right, we don't want any bad moods, Marcus. All right, that is the bell. That means it's time to face the firing squad. Are you ready?


Chad Sowash (31:26.21)



Markus Krampe (31:35.581)

Yeah, I don't know.


Joel Cheesman (31:40.038)

I appreciate your honesty. I'll go first chat. If that's all right with you. I don't know what to make of this man. coming into it, you had won the unleashed startup award. it sorta like it made sense to me, the audio thing, but then I, you know, competing with a lot of really well -funded, you know, conversational AI. I don't know where AI in general is going with, with audio.


Chad Sowash (31:45.506)

Have it.


Joel Cheesman (32:11.75)

You're very German. I know you're talking about Asia and America, but like, I mean, if I go to the, if I go to the English per part of your site, which is the, the union Jack, right. Which is very traditional, but like the images I see are still in German. It's still very much in German. So I think you have to figure out exactly where you're going and what, like who you want to target. Cause.


believe it or not in America, if you spell favorite with OU and not just O like it's a real turnoff for Americans, man. It's a real, it's a real bummer for Americans. So, I don't know how it is in Asia, but that's going to be a challenge. You're, you're, you're like, you're targeting young people. your site says quote, young professionals and students are primarily a voice driven generation. I just don't know about that.


Markus Krampe (32:42.685)

I know what that is.


Markus Krampe (32:49.853)

the same.


Joel Cheesman (33:01.414)

They like to text. They like to tap. They like to use the thumbs. I don't know if they're talking as much, maybe in Germany they are. so like, I just, I feel, you know, you haven't raised a ton of money. You've been around for four years. It hasn't quite happened yet. Like you, I don't want to, I want to raise money, but we're too busy with the product. And like, it just, to me, it feels like you're going.


nowhere fast and maybe you'll turn that around. Maybe, you'll either raise money or get people headed in the right direction. But for me, like, I don't know if the audio thing is going to happen. I don't know if AI is going to be a major hurdle for you. I think you have comp competition. That's much better funded. That's much more on the ball, if you will. I think as a German, even you understand that that term. So for me, like, I'm just, I have a hard time seeing where it is. Congratulations on the unleash award.


Clearly there's some things going on here. You're making money, which is great. But for me, like, I just, there's just not enough there for me to embrace talk and or talking or talk and zip, whatever, whatever it is, man, I, I just can't get over it. So for me, like, I don't, I just don't see it right now. So you're going to get the guns. Maybe Chad feels differently. Chad, what do you think?


Chad Sowash (34:19.106)

Well, I think this does solve a very big problem in the application process because it sucks. I mean, it is pure shit for a lot of people. And there are many companies who, if they pare down their application and they allow voice, it just becomes much easier. Right. And we are becoming more more voice driven, I think. But at the end of the day, you take a look at the brand is very disassociative, you know.


Ply Z or Talk and Job, literally, you can go to Caroline, it'll take her 10 minutes to redirect those to one site, right? And then just have a unified version, whatever it is, all of them to one site, even the one that you own that resolves nowhere, it goes to a black hole, send that to Talk and Job, right? But again, it seems like an amazing bandaid for the problem that is at hand. Here's the thing.


The idea, you have a short amount of time before large language models are leveraged with more candidate data and tech experience than you guys have right now. You'd better find an ATS with a crappy apply process, and I think you have, and then create that. Don't create a platform. That was almost like a trap door for you. Don't create a platform. Create the best feature that's out there, the voice application feature.


Markus Krampe (35:32.093)



Chad Sowash (35:45.986)

and sell that damn thing. The go to market is incredibly erratic. You don't have enough money to go after that many markets. It's incredibly hard. And especially going from Germany to the US and then the US back to Germany, that is a very, very hard market. Now, if you land and expand with some German companies and then push out into the US, that's something that's entirely different. And the last but not least,


In saying you don't care about AI, that to me is probably why you're not getting funding. Everybody out there who's getting funding or at least trying to get funding, they've got the AI banner and they are carrying it strong. So you may not like it, but again, all the kids are doing it and the ones that are doing it and they're getting funding. At the end of the day, I see, and I'm going to lean heavily on you being German, that these things are going to tighten up. You're going to focus.


And you're going to not only raise a little bit more cash, but you're going to focus on creating the best audio application process that's out there so that you can exit and get the hell out. You've got, I think, I believe, again, my opinion, about 18 to 24 months to do that. If you don't do it, you're going to get, you're going to get waved by a tsunami of other companies who are going to be doing this, which is why you're getting a golf clap for me. I think you got a chance, my friend. I think.


You got a chance.


Joel Cheesman (37:16.198)

All right, Marcus, how do you feel? In 20 words or less.


Markus Krampe (37:20.093)

In 20 words or less, basically, that's what we're saying. We only can do the markets if we have the money. First thing, being the best, this is the core business we are focusing on. AI and all that one is being sold in the second part because we are solving this very problem.


That's why the NHS has over 70 % of total applications with us. That is the point. Yeah, I know.


Joel Cheesman (37:49.19)

All right, you're way over 20 words. You're way over 20. That is Marcus, Marcus Kramp everybody. Marcus, for those that want to learn more about talking job, what exactly is that URL that they should check out?


Chad Sowash (37:52.13)

The NHS is government. Alright, come on. They have a lot of money.


Markus Krampe (38:02.685)

talk and job .com. There we go. And besides you've got now the two weeks where, where we had this, walk around. Yeah. Yeah. You're talking.


Chad Sowash (38:05.41)

There we go.


Joel Cheesman (38:05.926)

Fair enough. Marcus, you're done. You're done. The show's over. It's over, Chad. That is another one in the can. We out.


Chad Sowash (38:13.794)



Chad Sowash (38:18.338)

We out.


Markus Krampe (38:19.485)

Okay, just



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