Inclusive AF w/ Jackye


We've made significant progress making our workplaces more equitable, diverse, and inclusive, right?


Not so fast, says Jackye Clayton, DEI strategist at Seekout and cohost of the Inclusive AF podcast. The industry vet joins the boys for a reality check and a deep dive into what's wrong with the current infrastructure of corporate America.


This podcast is power by Sovren's AI, it's so human you'll want to take it to dinner.


PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by:

Disability Solutions helps forward thinking employers create world class hiring and retention programs for people with disabilities.


Joel (0s):

Did the movie have anything to do with it?


Jackye (2s):

No, no, no, no. We were watching the first Footloose.


Chad (10s):

That is, yeah. That's about as white as you can get.

INTRO (14s):

Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.


Joel (36s):

What's up everybody. This is Joel Cheeseman of your favorite podcast. The Chad and Cheese podcast joined as always by my cohost, Chad Sowash and today we are tickled pink to welcome Jackye Clayton.


Jackye (50s):

Hello.


Joel (51s):

DEI Strategist at Seekout and podcaster to the show. Jackye, what up?


Jackye (57s):

Hey, I am so glad to be here. Thank you so much. I'm honored.


Joel (1m 0s):

Callin' in from Waco home of the new NCAA basketball champions. Is it just one big party there in Waco!


Jackye (1m 7s):

Absolutely!


Joel (1m 8s):

Dr. Pepper and yeah. Party time. I love it. I love it. So, so for those listeners who don't know you, Jackye, give us the Twitter bio. What did I miss in the intro?


Jackye (1m 18s):

Yeah. So a cohost of Inclusive AF podcast. Love that. Trying to change the world one recruiter at a time through diversity and inclusion. That's kind of my shtick.


Joel (1m 29s):

Look at you with the AF being all dangerous.


Jackye (1m 32s):

I know, I know it's naughty. It's a little naughty,


Chad (1m 36s):

So it's a little naughty.


Jackye (1m 40s):

And it's hard to, we have to be inclusive. We have to still be inclusive. You mean even when you don't feel like it.


Chad (1m 46s):

Yeah. Yeah. So, well, in that being said, DEI seems to be the new AI everybody's talking about it. Everybody says they have it.


Joel (1m 56s):

Everybody's buying it.


Chad (1m 58s):

How does it feel to be the cool kid in the room?


Jackye (2m 1s):

Terrifying. I kind of liked it a little bit when people said, no, that's not important and people aren't gonna buy it. No, I mean, I'm the one hand it's good. But then on the other hand, it's scary because it's like so many people can do it wrong.


Chad (2m 17s):

Yes.


Jackye (2m 17s):

Right? Same with recruiting. Right? It's like, Oh, get a recruiter. Right. If you remember, they are in the two thousands, like 2005, when everybody was opening their own recruiting firm.


Joel (2m 29s):

You're the garage band that's made it. And now all these people want to be Nirvana, but they're nowhere near the talent level. Right? So all these people that are getting into the profession and have no idea what the fuck is going on.


Jackye (2m 39s):

Absolutely. Yeah, so that's the scary part.


Joel (2m 42s):

You've been around a lot, Jackye at meaning the industry, not the other way around.


Jackye (2m 49s):

Thank you for clarifying.


Joel (2m 51s):

SeekOut. What are you doing for them specifically? Talk a little bit about your history cause I think it's relevant for a lot of the listeners.


Jackye (2m 58s):

Yes, so my background is in recruiting. So it started with talent acquisition and recruiting for a number of years. And, but I started writing about diversity in 2008, really because the way everybody was being trained on how to recruit diverse talent meant they weren't going to find me. Right. So they would say, Oh, look at HBCUs. It's like, okay, I didn't go to one or look at these sororities or, and I wasn't a member look at these clubs. And I was like, I'm never going to be on the list, based on those things. And I'm really, I really want to be a part of it. So I kept researching what the problem was or issues and concerns were.


Jackye (3m 38s):

And so it's always been kind of a part of what I do. I was mostly doing recruiting on the tech side. So you do kind of get a diverse/non-diverse background. You notice those kinds of gaps. And so I started with that. And so now really doing it on a full-time basis because I used to analyze tech as well. And as I was analyzing technology really was noticing the gaps or how is this going to work as we went into AI, how is that going to affect diversity and inclusion? So now, primarily I work with our clients that are trying to build out diversity strategies and letting them know, you know, how they can do it, what they need to do, if it's possible.


Jackye (4m 21s):

And then of course I work for a startup. So I do all the other things too.


Joel (4m 25s):

More of a consulting basis because I think when I thought of this, I thought, well, okay, she could help make the tech better. She could make hiring at Seek Out better and more inclusive. And a third thing you mentioned was you can consult with clients to help make their recruiter. Is it all those three? Or did, or am I overstepping in terms of your role there? Okay.


Jackye (4m 45s):

All those three, because one of the things, and this kind of goes with the fear is like they have all these tools that talk about diversity and inclusion, but really they're talking about gender and ethnicity, right. And leaving out all of these different groups. And it became very clear that if that's all we're going to do that's as far as organizations will go. And so you have to open that up so that people understand what it means and have access to our different ways of finding those people so you can start bringing them into the fold because it's a distraction for people who are trying to find top talent, if it's more difficult. And so if we can make, make it easier to find diverse talent, then we can incorporate more diverse talent.


Jackye (5m 28s):

Okay.


Chad (5m 29s):

But Jackye, I'm just not convinced that corporate America really wants to be diverse.


Jackye (5m 35s):

They don't!


Chad (5m 35s):

I mean, do they really want to be equitable? I mean, seriously, we put Whitey on the moon in 1969, but we can't figure this shit out. So for me, you take a look at the DEI training segment, right? It's like a $9 billion industry. It's fucking enormous, but we don't see outcomes coming from that, from the hiring retention promotion, any of that stuff. So, I mean, I don't personally believe corporate America wants to be diverse. So that seems like an uphill battle for you, even though it's the cool thing. It's the cool thing. I don't believe that's what they want. Do you?


Jackye (6m 15s):

No, they don't. And the reason that I say that is because we're able to find the talent so quickly. So what's the problem. So I don't understand why there's still an issue and that's what we started looking into. Well, I started looking into years ago, but what's going into it. And that's, what's so interesting. I think about like, when we talk about the podcast with inclusive AI, like we look at some of these issues, like what's really the barrier, right? And I think that diversity and inclusion, all the people that are participating in it, one of the challenges is you get this nice to have a dream from your C-level executives. Right?


Chad (6m 51s):

Right.


Jackye (6m 52s):

But they didn't even talk to talent acquisition at all to see if it's possible.


Chad (6m 56s):

Because they never do.


Jackye (6m 57s):

For example, there's a place that is not, nowhere near Texas, but their CEOs that they were going to increase by 30% of people of color. But they only have 5% in the city. 5% people of color.


Chad (7m 11s):

Yeah.


Jackye (7m 12s):

So how are you going to do that? Where are these people coming from and what are you going to do? I mean, even more, we've already seen the gap when human resources went from nurturing personnel to protecting organizations and taking the human out. But they take the human out in diversity and inclusion because it becomes like they look at these like people as items, you know, as widgets, instead of understanding what goes into it. So I think we will, want to, but they just don't understand what it takes. It's like, you know what to expect when you're expecting or whatever. Like we all have kids, right. And then you read the book and you're like, Oh, is that going to happen? You're like, yeah,


Joel (7m 51s):

There's no conspiracy here to say, Oh, you know what? We're going to tell everyone we're going to up it by 30% and hope that no one checks us on that. You think it's more like, they just don't know. They say what they think is the right thing. But they don't really think about logistically, how are we going to do this?


Chad (8m 9s):

Which means they're not serious.


Jackye (8m 10s):

Hey, because they don't, they'll say that they want to have diverse talent. But what they don't say is we need to evenly distribute the power around our organization. Right?


Chad (8m 19s):

Right.


Jackye (8m 20s):

Or they'll say, Oh, we're diverse because we have 50% female. But if you look at what they pay out in salaries, I bet you, that's not 50% male/females. Right?


Joel (8m 29s):

Such a cynic.


Chad (8m 32s):

So, it's hard not to be a cynic because these companies aren't transparent. They don't actually show their workforce composition number one. Right? They don't show their pay equity. They don't show any of that stuff. And they could do it in large groups. They don't have to do it in a person by person basis. They're not being transparent with the market itself. And that's, it should be step one.


Jackye (8m 57s):

That absolutely has to be step one. And, I should say, I should back up and say, I think that people want it, but they don't want everything else that comes along with it. It's one of those we have to slow down in order to speed up.


Chad (9m 9s):

What comes with it though?


Jackye (9m 11s):

You have to admit your shortcomings, your failures, you know, you implemented maybe a company culture that wasn't the best, you know, and it takes away especially understanding that you're going to bring in conflict at the very beginning because people don't think the way you do.


Chad (9m 29s):

Oh yeah.


Joel (9m 29s):

So Jackye, we, we brought, we brought Cindy Gallop on the podcast and I don't know if you've heard that episode or not, but she's very adamant of saying that the only solution, ultimately, you know, the white C-suite is not really going to change what they are. And as a corporation, the only way to change this is to empower diverse folks, to create their own businesses and build their own companies. That's the only way they're going to do this. Do you agree with that? Or are there other, like, is it market forces? Does government need to get involved? Does, journalism need to do its job? Like, what is the solution? If, if what you're saying is sort of like people pay lip service, but nothing's really happening.


Jackye (10m 12s):

I think a lot of it has to do with really getting real with what's going on in the organization. Because I think what you have to do is get rid of the people that are getting in the way of diversity and inclusion. Right. Get rid of those people and then replace it with diverse talent.


Joel (10m 28s):

But that, I mean, that sounds good. But if, if you have a profitable company that shareholders love, and I mean, employees are happy. It's hard to justify getting rid of them, isn't it?


Jackye (10m 39s):

But they're going to have people are falling out of love with those companies.


Joel (10m 42s):

Okay. So market forces is what you're saying,


Jackye (10m 45s):

So look at Georgia. Right? And Delta. Yeah. Because it's the most recent example, right?


Chad (10m 53s):

Yeah.


Jackye (10m 53s):

Coke in, Atlanta, you know, is a part of the whole culture and they're like, fuck that. We're not doing it. Right. Major league baseball. It's America's team. They're like, we're not going to Georgia. I'm not saying all of that is great. But I mean, that's what it takes because people fall out of love. And then in result, what you're seeing is people fall in love with those organizations and start supporting those organizations that they didn't before. I think you guys know that I'm a NASCAR fan, right?


Chad and Joel (11m 21s):

Yep.


Jackye (11m 22s):

And as we were, as we're going through the years, it was always uncomfortable. I love going to the races and loved it just to, because I am able to live a life of privilege that I didn't have to go in the stands. Right? I was always like in the infield and I didn't get exposed to a lot of that stuff, but I knew it was there. Right. It's the whole culture. As soon as they stopped having rebel flags, that became a nicer place for me.


Chad and Joel (11m 45s):

I'll bet. Jesus.


Jackye (11m 48s):

Because that's terrifying. Right? That was terrifying for me. On the flip side, I understand, for other people that was terrifying because I think they were just scared of what it's going to happen. But now you look at people. What would have happened if that would have happened 10 years ago? Michael Jordan is a major investor in a car. Now level Wallace is driving number 23, based on Michael Jordan, putting his own funds, black people of wealth, putting their own money into a sport that has never seen it. Yeah. I mean, Michael, Jordan's been rich for a long time. There's a reason why he's decided to invest. And other people have started to invest into those things. So I understand what you're saying on the one side, Oh, they're profitable.


Jackye (12m 28s):

Why would they have to change? But I think that they're missing the entire market. And as we know, as this progresses, this is going to be the majority market and people don't forget that easily.


Chad (12m 38s):

Well. And how much more profitable could they be? Take a look at Nike, right. For taking a stand and their, I mean, their fricking stock shot up after Kap, right? So it's like, yes, you are quote unquote profitable. But instead of trying to be all things to everybody and not having a stand on anything, you could prospectively be losing big time. And I think those are, those are really good examples. I hate to see this so blatantly happening in Georgia. And I hate that, you know, all the people that it's going to actually impact, I hope it does move them, even though they're making it harder, move them to the polls, to get these assholes out of power.


Chad (13m 23s):

Because I think personally, the only way that we can make this thing move, and I saw Jackye, and I think it was like 2008 when the government shut down America's job bank. And there was a change in the VEVRAA was, was something that everybody had to focus on. So veterans, and then 503 individuals with disabilities. Everybody was like, Oh, Holy shit. We have benchmarks we have to reach. They're not quote/unquote. These are things that we have to focus on and numbers that we have to start to try to demonstrate that we're trying to get to. Personally, market forces is total bullshit. If you don't have somebody with guard rails, they're forcing something to happen they're going to do what they do.


Jackye (14m 6s):

Listen, I tell ya veterans, you brought up veterans. So I was talking to an organization that hires a lot of veterans, right? And so when we were talking about diversity and inclusion and they said, we don't need to focus on women and people of color, we just need to focus on veterans. And I'm like, okay, let me educate you. Right.


Joel (14m 24s):

It's commercial time.


Sovren (14m 25s):

You already know that Sovren makes the world's best resume CV parser, but did you know that Sovren also makes the world's best AI matching engine? Only Sovren's AI matching engine goes beyond the buzzwords. With Sovren you control how the engine thinks with every match the Sovren engine tells you what matched and exactly how each matching document was scored. And if you don't agree with the way it's scored the matches, you can simply move some sliders to tell it, to score the matches your way. No other engine on earth gives you that combination of insight and control. With Sovren, matching isn't some frustrating "black box, trust us, it's magic, one shot deal" like all the others. No, with Sovren, matching is completely understandable, completely controllable, and actually kind of fun. Sovren ~ software so human you'll want to take it to dinner.


Joel (15m 26s):

It's Showtime


Jackye (15m 28s):

General, like people who are joining the military has fallen 25% women. It's gone up 40%. People of color has gone up 15%. You better figure out how to talk to women and people of color, or you're not going to have the veterans that you want to talk to. Like, they'll remember that conversation. People remember that if you don't know how to relate and bring people in, you're going to have a hard problem, right? So you have to look at all of these things and how it impacts the future and where the future is going. Right?


Joel (15m 57s):

For the record. You know, you've really fucked up when Delta airlines is like, Hey, you need to treat people with respect.


Jackye (16m 4s):

Yeah. We can drag people off planes? That wasn't that them?


Chad (16m 7s):

No that wasn't. That was United.


Joel (16m 9s):

Jackye, one of the things I think has been curious at best for me in the last six months or so, is sort of the anti-Asian sentiment. And I feel like there are so many groups that either sort of go through these periods where they have challenges. What are your thoughts on that? And what are some individuals or groups of folks that we forget about? I mean, you mentioned disability in one of your articles. I feel like age-ism is becoming more of a thing. Now what's your take on all that?


Jackye (16m 41s):

I agree with that. I feel like if you look, you know, we're always looking for an enemy. I think people look at different people as being more acceptable. If you look at how people treat each other, it's like they pick the group that is unable to defend themselves, or is unaware of these things happening first, to pick on. There's like bullies. We have a bullying problem in our country.


Joel (17m 8s):

Sure.


Jackye (17m 9s):

And I think there are people with disabilities that go to work every day that aren't getting their needs fully met by an organization that try so hard, right. That are working very hard to be successful, that we ignore. And again, so another example in recruiting, we talk about behavioral interviews, right?


Chad (17m 32s):

Yeah.


Jackye (17m 33s):

Talk to me, Bill, tell me about a time when dot, dot, dot every recruiter is taught that that's the best way of doing things. However, if a person has as neuro-diverse or has learned differently than someone else, they might not remember a time that they did that. Or they're not sure if that's what you mean can take longer. Their interviewer will say, Oh, they didn't have a time. Or they didn't answer the question correctly. Like we were not thinking about how, what the impact is. I think that it's really important that we look at peoples with disabilities, but you don't see it on people's lists. And there's organizations, colleges, fraternities, again, that support, cater and assist people with disabilities, that it makes it easier to find these candidates so that we can bring into the fold to make sure that not only are we being fair and equitable, but that our products are made to be equitable and usable by people with these, in these situations.


Jackye (18m 37s):

And that's what people don't realize. Again, like if I know that you're doing something for me, it gets rewarded by dollars.


Chad (18m 45s):

Right. Don't most companies look at tech as a way to solve a problem that tech didn't create in the first place? So they're looking for this silver bullet, this easy button to hit once, we're going to integrate it and it's going to take care of everything. And they don't realize that tech is definitely, you know, a force multiplier, no question, it helps you scale and helps you do a lot of things, much faster, much more efficient, et cetera, et cetera. But it's not just a silver bullet fix everything. And it's not something that you just plug in and walk away from. Isn't our industry just so bad at tech?


Jackye (19m 26s):

We're just shortsighted. We've given everyone the ability to create a product, right. Everybody can create a project. It doesn't take very much. And so we get these small wins and stop, you know, like you're saying, and now I'm making my money and I'm going home. I'm going to take my ball and I'm going home. And so I don't think kind of what we were alluding to earlier. I don't think it takes like government intervention or any of that intervention. I think it's really people making that connection again and connecting with people. And, I don't know how to do that, but to your point, tech didn't create these problems or a lack of technology didn't create this problem.


Joel (20m 7s):

Right. For those that don't know, diversity recruiting 15 years ago used to be, we put a banner ad on BET's website. So we're diverse, we're recruiting for diverse candidates. Have we evolved from that or do you feel like we're still in that mentality? And the tech really isn't, hasn't caught up much more than that. Are we really making strides with the algorithms and the technology to be a more unbiased recruiting process?


Jackye (20m 34s):

A little bit and just to be fair, my solution is to fire the people and then you can use the tech to find the people that you need to replace them with. To be clear.


Chad (20m 43s):

We're becoming robots. The robots are coming.


Jackye (20m 47s):

It's finding the people is easy. I think the issue still remains that you're asking non-diverse people to solve a problem to people that are diverse. So case in point, me and my daughter are watching one of those like free movies, but you have to watch commercials, you know? And every commercial had black people in it, everyone. For the two hours that was shown to us. And my daughter reminded me, she was like, it's the cookies? Like it's because you buy, you know, black girl magic candles.


Joel (21m 20s):

Was, did the movie have anything to do with it?


Jackye (21m 23s):

No, no, no. We were watching the first Footloose.


Chad (21m 30s):

That is, yeah. That's about as white as you can get. Yeah.


Jackye (21m 36s):

Streaming thing. I had to use this app because nobody else was having, so what was funny though? Here's what was funny. So we're looking at it. We're like, Oh, that's nice. But then they were things. And my daughter looked at me and she was like, black people wouldn't do that? Like, we're watching the commercial of the family, you know, and grandpa and the baby and the beach and whatever. She's like that doesn't even look that doesn't even look right. Like we're looking at these families. Somebody made me to the decision to increase their diversity in their ads, but it didn't feel genuine.


Joel (22m 6s):

Like it's the equivalent of stock photos on a website. Correct? You got an old person, a black person, an asian american, a check-in we're checking off all the boxes.


Jackye (22m 17s):

Yeah. Grandpa's back didn't hurt throwing the kid, grandma, you know, wasn't in her special chair. She's running with the kids in the front yard. That's just not, which goes into ages. I'm like, that's those things we're not getting real yet. And so those decisions are made by non-diverse populations. I think we're getting closer. Like we're getting to the match, but people are forgetting what the lesson is. I think one of my favorite things that I hear is people say, well, you should post jobs on sites that attract black candidates. Like you were saying, a banner ad on BET or something like that. And I said, why don't you post it? Why don't you post it on LinkedIn? Like, everybody's on LinkedIn.


Jackye (22m 59s):

The other ones aren't exclusive. Why aren't you putting it on Indeed? Like, why aren't you putting it on the places where people go to look for jobs? Like you can't the whole point is inclusionary. Quit othering me and bring everyone together because my othering is causing a greater divide.


Joel (23m 20s):

I'm remember, back in the day, people would target certain key phrases on Google, around like black jobs. Like they're not searching black jobs. I'm not searching white jobs or male jobs. Like it seems so stupid.


Chad (23m 35s):

Jobs for Whitey.


Jackye (23m 36s):

Yeah. I was about to say something not great.


Chad (23m 40s):

You should of, that would have been funny.


Joel (23m 43s):

We need the ratings, Jackye.


Jackye (23m 45s):

I'm not doing it. I mean, the thing is like, it's like quit asking people who aren't a part, that's what's the funniest part, is that people think that it's easy. So there's a bunch of still the white board room having a, what can we do for black people and making these choices and decisions, but not actually meeting, learning about the people.


Chad (24m 11s):

One of your big recruiting diversity kind of like w wrong things to do is just focused on the entry-level piece. Right?


Jackye (24m 20s):

Yes!


Chad (24m 21s):

Instead of doing that, why aren't we focusing on leadership and being able to, there are only six, Oh, go 8%. I'm sorry. I think it's 8% of fortune 500 company CEOs are female. Okay. So that shows you that we have an issue with when we've got a 50, 50% composition from male to female, just overall populous wise. And you can't tell me that we can't find some black females for God's sakes to be able to take up some additional roles. So it just seems to me again, that corporate America is not going to get there on their own.


Chad (25m 1s):

This has gotta be something that is forced from somewhere.


Jackye (25m 5s):

It's deep. The system is deep. The problem, there's a book, and it's not an easy book. I'm not saying I'm not going to give you my personal opinion. I will tell you, I read it. I read, and I recommend this book, but please,


Joel (25m 18s):

That excludes our listeners, but go ahead.


Jackye (25m 19s):

It's called Mediocre: the Dangerous Legacy of White Male America.


Chad (25m 24s):

By Joel Cheeseman.


Joel (25m 28s):

Forward by Joel Cheeseman.


Jackye (25m 33s):

But what it does is that the problem is okay, so let's back up. The thing that's really interesting and this is came out of learning more about diversity and inclusion is that when you are nonwhite, you identify with your own culture, with your black culture, with your Latin X, Hispanic culture, you know, all of these different cultures. When the groups came to the United States, they had to turn their back on their culture and were told, this is what you deserve just for being here, right? Like we're talking about privilege.


Chad (26m 3s):

So we're still doing that.


Jackye (26m 4s):

Generation after generation of white men in particular feel like they deserve power just for doing that. Even though the reason the book is called Mediocre is because we know that from an education standpoint, it's kind of slipped like the numbers have slipped and we have more educated women and people of color than we do white males. And yet they're still getting into those, this it's this whole new phenomenon of the new white male identity that's free from racism and sexism has to occur. And so I think it's hard, right? I, when you're benefiting, why would you want to change.


Jackye (26m 44s):

And so the thing that we've said in the past was that, you know, equal treatment and equity looks like oppression. The people who have felt this boost of power and ability that they didn't earn. So that's where the issue is. It's okay. You didn't deserve this. You didn't really work your weight. Why don't you just step back and give it to somebody who deserves it, but people feel like they deserve it.


Chad (27m 9s):

Well, it's the same. It feels like the same conversation when you're talking about black lives matter. And a white person says, well, I think all lives matter. It's like, that's not what we were talking about, asshole, right? I mean, that's what it's like, wait a minute, me, me talk about me. You're not talking about me. Why aren't you talking about me? It's like, look, we always talk about you. Okay. What we're not talking about is the black people who actually matter over here as well. That's what you're missing is that these people matter in the conversation. We're just trying to focus on their lives and how they matter. And we're not going to talk about you for a minute. And I think that, you know, we are so self absorbed, because that is what we've been used to in this country for centuries.


Chad (27m 55s):

And that is what's been bred into really the culture of America, which is why we have so many angry white males right now.


Jackye (28m 4s):

And because that's what they, so that became the culture. They already went, you know, you can do the 23 and me. And it says, Oh, you know, I'm German and this and that, but they reject that culture and say, I'm American so this is mine. Right? And that's why you mentioned earlier, what they say is that they want the diverse talent, but they don't say is that we want an even distribution of wealth and power in our organization. And we can do that. Right. But then again, you're asking somebody to take a step back and make it more fair, which means giving something that they feel like they either deserve, or they just want, because who doesn't want that. So it's a little bit trickier than that, you know? And so we have to start at the top, but that's difficult too.


Jackye (28m 46s):

You have some organizations that have been around for a hundred years, family run organizations they've been working at this company, believe it or not, there's still places where people have worked for 20 years and their next step is, should be in the C suite. And they're getting told no. So how do you deal with that? And so it is, but we have to get, we don't have the same level playing field or the same baseline where people understand why we're doing this. What it should be, the outcome and work towards those goals. And so, as a result, we're seeing people doing it half ass and there have a straight line from the front door, straight to the back door.


Joel (29m 24s):

Jackye, I want to kind of circle back to one of my previous questions. Cause I think, I think it cuts to the heart of what a lot of our listeners want to know from your perspective. And I don't know, Chad likes to say DNI, D&I is the new AI. Like if, if we were going to HR tech, you know, this year, last AI would have been replaced with diversity and inclusion and products that we, that we provide. Can AI be the panacea that everyone is touting to create an unbiased recruiting situation and an unbiased hiring strategies for companies? Or is it a facade?


Jackye (30m 1s):

Can, this is what's so laughable. I think because we've already have evidence that AI is less biased.


Joel (30m 9s):

But you also have Amazon which canceled. It canceled their AI because it wasn't.


Jackye (30m 13s):

Well, they didn't use the, they didn't ask the right questions.


Joel (30m 16s):

They didn't use SeekOut.


Jackye (30m 20s):

They didn't use SeekOut at the time. But the thing is, it's like, what's funny is that we are trusting the people that we just said were wrong, to tell us that it's wrong. That we just proved don't, can't do it.


Chad (30m 32s):

Right.


Jackye (30m 33s):

And then they say, Oh, it doesn't work. And that's the funniest part. It's just, it's ridiculous. I don't know if it's going to be a full panacea, but it is part of the solution because we can also tweak algorithms to make sure that there is not as much bias, but you have to stay on top of it. It's like anything it's like, it's like Vegas, right? Can you make a lot of money? Yeah. Can you lose? Yeah. But are people cheating? Yeah. And you have to look at it all the time and they're finding new ways to go against it.


Joel (31m 8s):

I think the hurdle of saying, we're just going to let the AI make our hiring decisions.


Jackye (31m 12s):

Yeah, don't do that.


Joel (31m 13s):

At whatever point you say, okay, this is going to be handed off to a human being. That bias is going to be part of this part of the decision. Am I right about that? Or no?


Jackye (31m 23s):

But I think, I don't think you're fully right. But I think what we can do is I think most of this has to do with awareness. And I think because so much of this is unconscious. We have to bring it into the light.


Chad (31m 34s):

An awareness that we're all biased. That's the awareness.


Jackye (31m 38s):

Number one, that we're all biased.


Chad (31m 40s):

Yes.


Jackye (31m 41s):

Number two, that this is how your bias shows itself in your process. Meaning there were 30 women that were in the candidate pool. You didn't select anybody to go to the interview process. Where you saw these people in this department and you can actually trace that stuff and see where the gaps are. And so, and then you go to the person and say, this is an area that I think of that you can work on because you probably didn't know that that was occurring. And they either say, yeah, I want to work on it. Or they say no. And then, then, okay, then you have to leave.


Joel (32m 16s):

Right? So we need 12 steps. Hi, my name is Joel and I'm a bias recruiter. That's what we need.


Jackye (32m 23s):

Hi Joel.


Chad (32m 25s):

They don't know because they don't want to know for the most part.


Jackye (32m 29s):

That's right. Everybody knows, if you go to a company right now and you've gave them the theory of we're going to fire 30% of the racist, sexist, misogynist people at this company.


Chad (32m 42s):

They all could. Yeah. They all good. 30%, only 30%, right. We're going to, we're going to save 70%, right?


Jackye (32m 50s):

15 minutes or less, you would have your 30% on a piece of paper.


Chad (32m 56s):

Oh, that's going to be, that's going to be the new exercise people. That's what we want to do.


Jackye (33m 1s):

That's the boss thing of America.


Joel (33m 3s):

Someone needs an intervention.


Chad (33m 5s):

That's it and that's where we're going to end on, Jackye.


Joel (33m 9s):

Thanks, Jackye.


Chad (33m 10s):

We appreciate you coming on this show, taking the time, being inclusive as fuck. And we definitely, we definitely want to have you come back. If people want to connect with you or where they want to find out more about what you're doing at SeekOut, where would you send them?</