Indeed Ejection

This week on The Chad & Cheese Podcast, the HR gods giveth—and then drop-kicketh your CEO. Mo Clough returns to the mic just in time for the Indeed implosion: Chris Hyams “decides” to leave (read: got yeeted), and his old boss steps in like, “I’ll take it from here, champ.”

🔥 Indeed’s parting gift? Doubling your ad spend and calling it a “Healthy Budget.” 

🕵️‍♀️ Meanwhile, Deel and Rippling are still engaged in a tech bro slap fight that includes fake customers, espionage, and… an axe?

⚖️ Workday gets slapped with a class-action lawsuit over alleged bias in its AI tools. It’s either ageism or just their recruiting module being trash—TBD.🤖

And if you weren’t stressed already, AI’s coming for your job. Literally. Mo suggests a bunker. Chad suggests more booze.

It’s HR meets high drama, served with sarcasm, suspicion, and strong opinions. Because “unfiltered” isn’t just a style—it’s a survival strategy.

🍷 Drink up, kids. The robots aren’t just coming—they’re updating your resume for you.

PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION

Chad (00:29.899)

Welcome back to the Chad and She's, HR's Most Dangerous Podcast. I'm Chad. Well, it's about damn time, so watch.

Maureen Clough (00:38.456)

And I'm Maureen, AKA Mo. Should I be building a doomsday bunker or something? Clough. Yeah, probably.

Chad (00:44.196)

I think you might, I think you might. And on this week's show, indeed gets healthy. Workday gets some action and Bozo rides again. Let's do this.

Chad (00:57.759)

Hey Mo, whatcha up to? It's been a while, where you been?

Maureen Clough (01:00.206)

I know. This feels like a homecoming. I'm so happy to be back. It's been like a minute, huh? It really has. Or it felt long to me. I missed you guys. I missed you guys. And I still miss Joel. I still miss Joel. Goes straight to his head.

Chad (01:03.499)

You

Chad (01:07.1)

It has been.

I don't

Chad (01:18.057)

Yeah, well, mean, so last week he and I were out birthday week, right? This week he's enjoying quality time with the kids, probably sitting in pool side having Taco Bell in the core's light. Yeah, last week though, I I lived it up and it's funny to actually say this. It's surreal to say this because last week I played golf in Spain, went kayaking in the Ria Formosa, played about 10 hours of paddle.

Maureen Clough (01:32.504)

That's the life, man.

Maureen Clough (01:44.622)

Such a flex.

Chad (01:46.827)

had my birthday party at my favorite bar. Oh, I gotta show you what I got. Give me a second, give me a

Maureen Clough (01:51.48)

Show me, show me. Wait, we love birthdays. Getting older is so hot right now. That's so awesome. All right, my gosh. my gosh. If you guys aren't watching on YouTube, that's a loss for you because what he just brought out is fairly massive. What the?

Chad (01:59.95)

Yeah

Chad (02:07.375)

It is massive and what it is is five liters of port.

Maureen Clough (02:15.006)

my, don't you like sip port? Like port is something you have like a little, so that's gonna last you a while, right? That's not coming through TSA on the way back over to the States, huh? No, no, no, get detained. Yeah.

Chad (02:16.458)

get that.

Yeah, which means We're going to have to have several parties to get rid of this fucking thing now my buddies No, no, this is this is staying. Yeah, no my buddies. It's tenure Sandman Tawny port. Whoo. Anyway, buddies buddies got that for me as a birthday gift five liters of point always trying out Always trying

Maureen Clough (02:45.026)

Your friends know you well. They know you well. They know the way to your heart.

Chad (02:49.013)

Always trying to outdo me is what it is. Always trying to outdo me.

Maureen Clough (02:51.086)

Did they succeed? mean, that is a pretty, I mean, that's tough to compete with, let's be honest. Yeah. Yeah. They killed it. Good job, Chad's friends. The bar is higher.

Chad (02:55.965)

Yeah, yeah, no they did. Bunch of, bunch of horseshit. Yeah, bunch of horseshit. So what were you doing? What were you doing? You just out and about? Were you on the island? What's going on?

Maureen Clough (03:09.108)

Out and about, yeah, I've been all over the place. I just got back from my 20th college reunion, if you can believe it. I know, I was like, what? I just cannot believe that that happened. It's like, man, life is moving really fast, right? It's that like Ferris Bueller quote, right? Like, how? How am I here? It was just bizarre. But it was so much fun getting back to campus and seeing my old friends. And so many people looked exactly the same to me.

Chad (03:15.404)

stop it. I can't.

Chad (03:36.213)

So was on campus. OK.

Maureen Clough (03:37.422)

Yeah, it was on campus. So I went back to Boston for it and it was a blast. Got to catch up with some of my best friends and see people who like, to be honest, I literally forgot existed. And I was like, oh, you, you know, but it was, it was really nice. It was like a, it was a heartwarming thing to remember back in, you know, the day when I was a little, little baby, you know, walking around the streets of Boston thinking I knew everything, knowing nothing, you know, it's funny how that works, right? Yeah. I was all eager and like really had hope.

Chad (03:58.227)

Mm-hmm. Oh yeah. Bright eyed. Ocea tail. Mouth, I know.

Maureen Clough (04:05.784)

And now I'm just like this downtrodden, beaten woman just trying to get through.

Chad (04:12.235)

I'm trying to get through life people. Okay, we gotta get out of the Debbie Downer stuff. We gotta get out of the Debbie Downer. I can't have you there. can't have you there. We're gonna go directly into, you know.

Maureen Clough (04:14.127)

Maybe building a bunker. don't know. Doomsday is coming. We're to be happy. We're going be happy today.

Chad (04:27.366)

you know it as an and you get to go first because you've got you've got a fun one.

Maureen Clough (04:29.778)

man, do I ever have a shout out for you? My shout out goes to a guy named Oliver Widger, who is just this like complete sensation. Now he's kind of a national hero. I think he's emblematic of what so many people feel right now, which is like completely left behind, like the American dream is no longer possible. Like things are just out of reach. And so he did something pretty sick. Why don't you go ahead and roll that for the audience?

Chad (04:36.618)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (04:49.515)

Yeah.

Chad (04:54.079)

Beautiful Bane footage, here we go.

Maureen Clough (04:55.997)

Hmhmhm.

Maureen Clough (05:21.39)

conventional wisdom.

Maureen Clough (05:30.616)

Dude, like this guy, you should see, I mean, everybody's like, yeah, man, you're the best, but we all are like feeling this so hard. And he was faced with a job that he despised. He had this condition that could render him paralyzed if something goes awry. And he was just like, what the F am I doing all this for? Like, what is the point? And decided to just like embrace the moment. And I feel like that is going to be the way so many of us approach life.

Chad (05:44.213)

Mm-hmm.

Maureen Clough (05:55.938)

And as someone who's always been a constant worrier and a people pleaser and looking far off into the future, like I could take a page out of this guy's book, right? Like it's about the now. And so I think he's like actually straight up a hero. And I think a lot more people are going to be doing some version of this, not necessarily this bold or this like splashy, but this guy's also a genius because bringing people along on this journey.

he amassed this crazy platform, right? He could be like a keynote speaker. He could do brand deals for the rest of his life. I don't know if that was his plan, but the guy is a genius and he's just inspiring a lot of people to go and do the things they love and be present in the moment. And I just think that's pretty cool. And he got to Hawaii, by the he actually made it and was, he got like a big, huge heroes welcome. He met with the governor. Like people are all...

Chad (06:39.113)

It's like Waikiki or something, right?

Maureen Clough (06:40.882)

It's like crazy. Yeah, people are like rooting for this guy and he's getting dinners bought for him. He's going all over. I mean, it might be his 15 minutes, but man, he's using them so, so wisely. And he's just, I really feel like that's compelling. And he got to Hawaii and I thought it was really funny because he posted corporate America, I won. I was like, wow. If that doesn't sum up how so much of the population feels right now, I don't know what does. So anyway, hat tip to that guy.

Chad (06:51.275)

Amazing.

Chad (07:04.821)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's sad. He obviously, you know, kind of eyes wide open situation, right? He comes down with this with this with this illness. You know, he kind of laughs and said, you know, I just went ahead and took all the money out of my 401K, sold my cars, did this stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, there's no question in, you know, we we are really trained in the U.S. to build.

Maureen Clough (07:15.308)

Right, like look at the prospects.

Maureen Clough (07:23.566)

Great idea, as they tell you, right?

Chad (07:36.989)

wealth until we retire and then enjoy it. And to be quite frank, mean, I really enjoy kind of like the European lifestyle where we don't rush through everything because that's what it feels like in the U.S. It's like you graduate high school, you go directly into college, you go undergrad, and then you go directly into grad school. And here it's so much slower. It's like, take a gap year. Find yourself. And people like to find yourself. Right. It's like, no, it's a fucking thing. I mean, seriously.

Maureen Clough (07:39.244)

Yep. Yes.

Maureen Clough (07:45.219)

Mmm.

Right.

Maureen Clough (08:02.03)

So right. It is. We would all do better if we were to all take gap years and chill the F out and not just be on this constant treadmill for achievement and like success and under 30, Forbes 30, it's like, let it go, chill. I agree with you. I think it's amazing. It's amazing. Yeah, lists, it's all that. But, you know, and I think people are having their own version of that. Like I said, I mean,

Chad (08:06.568)

and in

Chad (08:10.684)

Yes. Uh-huh.

Chad (08:18.229)

Yeah, lists, lists.

Maureen Clough (08:26.924)

I'm about to move to a rural place in Washington state with my family, because I'm just ready to get out of the rat race, you know, sky high expenses in Seattle and everything else. And it's just like, what are we all doing? Like, I want to be with my family. I want to be with people I love. I want to slow down and take appreciation for, you know, the finer, smaller moments in life and not just be on this treadmill that's just really feeling very uninspired and really unfulfilling. So, yeah, I think you'll see a lot of people kind of mixing it up.

Chad (08:30.667)

Mm-hmm.

Maureen Clough (08:55.126)

in this year because and in future years, I think because so much is uncertain. So much is uncertain. So I think people will lean into that. So that's like kind of a silver lining there.

Chad (09:04.947)

It is, it is. Many, many new influencers coming your way. I have rapid, rapid fire shout outs. So I list, let's say, of shout outs. So shout out to Wedgie, AKA WedgeHR, the video interviewing platform, announced a stealthy strategic investment round while adding a COO and a CRO on the way. Matt and the kids over at Wedgie are bulking up and sound like they're actually getting serious, which is good.

Maureen Clough (09:08.173)

Haha!

Maureen Clough (09:11.628)

Ooh, I like it.

Maureen Clough (09:31.342)

You

Chad (09:31.499)

now shout out to, employee Inc parent company of job bite lever and jazz HR introducing their first AI companions, companions, just another way to say assistant maybe I fuck. don't know. but can, yeah, I mean, come on companions, dating. I got nothing. got nothing. But imagine trying to integrate this companion into three separate.

Maureen Clough (09:44.622)

It depends on your style, I guess.

Hahaha.

Chad (10:00.543)

code bases. They've got three different applicant tracking systems. That's going to be interesting. Going to sit back, going to watch, maybe be cringy, who knows, but we'll see. And the last, but never least shout out is to Pride Month. No rainbow logos necessary. It's about how we treat everyone. And I mean everyone around us, respect, humility, happy Pride Month everyone. those are my rapid fire shout outs.

Maureen Clough (10:09.475)

Ha

Maureen Clough (10:25.966)

Hell yeah.

Chad (10:30.499)

and we're going to go ahead and jump into the free stuffs. Kids remember, remember there's always free stuff from the Chad and Cheese. go to Chadcheese.com slash free mo. If they sign up for free stuff, what do they get?

Maureen Clough (10:35.343)

man, free stuff.

Maureen Clough (10:47.096)

Well, I mean, it's the Chad and Cheese show, so you know alcohol is gonna be involved, right? So you can get some whiskey from Van Hack, then.

my God. Always, always. And then if that's not your sort of flavor, you could go little less spirit forward and do bourbon barrel aged syrup from Kiora. That's pretty delightful.

Chad (11:07.249)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's our boys. Our boys from Canada.

Maureen Clough (11:14.414)

my gosh, Hoser is such a good one. my God. Anyway, I digress. You can get some t-shirts from Erin App. Pretty solid. And then two seasons ago, all right. hey, I love it. And then craft beer, back to alcohol, got to go back there. Craft beer from the Job Data Geeks from Aspen Tech Labs.

Chad (11:22.219)

Mmm.

There's two seasons ago. T-shirt. T-shirt, yeah.

Chad (11:37.855)

Mm-hmm.

Maureen Clough (11:39.796)

And if it's your birthday, you can get some rum with plums.

Chad (11:42.464)

yeah.

Chad (11:48.267)

The only way you can get that kids Chad cheese.com slash free. Register register register. Now this is because we were off last week. It was Chad cheese birthday week and this is going to be a week of May and a week of June birthday. So get get ready kids. We have so many listeners Jesus. So happy birthday to Tom Hunley James AKA Jim Andrew Chuck. Sean Johnson Travis.

Maureen Clough (11:55.598)

So good.

Maureen Clough (12:01.208)

You

Chad (12:18.121)

Windling Adrian Aston Villa Anita Brekka or Anita. That's Anna Brekka. I'm sorry, Anna Nancy from Philly bear Savoy Anders Storman Daniela McDonald Andy Peterson Martin Dangerfield Scott Allen Les Wessel Jim Stroud Bosco. That's right. I said Bosco Vujo to Vic Olga and this free guy

Maureen Clough (12:27.662)

You

Chad (12:46.377)

man, we've got people all over, it's awesome. Then all of those really crazy foreign names, and then we get J Arnold. Jane Superman Curran.

Maureen Clough (12:57.646)

That's a great one. That's my middle name too, by the way. Okay.

Chad (12:59.485)

Nicole, that's Joel. Joel did that one. Yeah. Nicole Bowers, Lindsay Nimmer, Courtney Howard, Jamie Hartley-Ribaro, Jesse Sims, Tristan Deguer, Vince Morgan, Laura Roots, Christine Hampton, Michael Duby Brothers-McDonald, Matt That British Guy Alder, and our favorite porn star Hung Lee. All of those kids.

Maureen Clough (13:21.921)

You

Chad (13:29.279)

people are signed up for free stuff. That's right. And a big, you know.

Maureen Clough (13:33.42)

Woohoo!

Maureen Clough (13:37.39)

You

Chad (13:37.823)

Happy birthday.

Maureen Clough (13:40.014)

Happy birthday.

Chad (13:41.579)

And then what's next? What's next?

Chad (13:48.747)

So, travel sponsored by Shaker Recruitment Marketing. Next on the board is Wreckfest in the UK. You're gonna be there. Are you excited?

Maureen Clough (13:56.108)

Yes, I am so pumped. I love me some British people. I'm so there. Such an Anglophile here. So yeah, sign me up. Can't wait. I totally am. I'm stoked. British humor, dry British humor. Get me there.

Chad (14:05.191)

Such an Anglo file.

Dough. Well, that's all it by the way. We're all going to be there. JT, Emmy, yourself, Joel, myself and our favorite Scott.

Maureen Clough (14:23.854)

Yay! Stephen McGrath.

Chad (14:24.778)

Who is it?

Maureen Clough (14:30.167)

You

Chad (14:31.507)

No, Steven, you're gonna be there, shut up. But yeah, no, we're pretty stoked about it. I going to Wreckfest, we've been going, geez, this is probably our fifth year, I think, and not consecutive because of the stupid COVID thing. But it's just a blast from the standpoint of it being literally like all hands meeting for some companies. I mean, some companies actually bring over 100 people.

Maureen Clough (14:33.88)

Hahaha!

Maureen Clough (14:46.19)

thing.

Maureen Clough (14:58.264)

So awesome. So tight.

Chad (14:59.273)

Yeah, and to be able to learn, to be able to gel and be around your peers, have a couple of drinks, be cool, be cool. But at the end of the day, mean, it's fun. There are like 10 or so tents that you go into. We're gonna be at the disrupt stage. And that's what we're gonna be doing in July. I can't wait, to be quite frank. It's gonna be a blast. So when are you gonna get in? You're gonna be in early, aren't you?

Maureen Clough (15:06.712)

Yeah. Yeah, it still work.

Maureen Clough (15:23.982)

Stoked. Stoked.

Yeah, I'm doing a vacation prior to that in Italy and then I'll be rolling over. Yeah, I know. I know. Yeah, sorry. Yeah. Well, I mean, I don't live in Portugal like some of us. my God. Damn. Not fair.

Chad (15:34.123)

it sucks to be you.

Okay, enough of that.

Chad (15:49.129)

All right, believe it or not, we're gonna be talking kids a lot, a lot today about this little company you've probably never heard of called Indeed. We've seen some major changes over the past couple of weeks. Terry Baker left Daxstra, Thad Price left Tauru, and just this week, according to the official script or statement, Chris Himes has decided, if you're not watching on,

Maureen Clough (16:16.302)

Some air quotes.

Chad (16:17.515)

YouTube I'm using air quotes decided to step down as CEO of indeed because nothing says Making your own free will decision like your boss stepping into your position Enter indeed's new and returning CEO. That's right. He was CEO before Hi, hi Sayuki. I hope I got that right. Hi Sayuki Dico a deco ba the CEO of indeed's parent company recruit

He's the CEO of the parent company and he's coming down kicking Chris to the curb or I'm sorry, he decided to leave. Yes, the new CEO is also the CEO of Indade's parent company, Recruit Holding. So Mo, what are your thoughts about kind of like the CEO shakeups that are happening in the industry?

Maureen Clough (16:49.251)

Yeah.

Maureen Clough (17:02.904)

I mean, I think when people quote, air quote, decide to leave and then their old boss comes in and replaces them, it's usually something else that's going on behind the scenes, is my guess, or something perhaps like performance related or maybe even some brewing potential. Obviously, I don't know anything about this current situation, but like sometimes it can be a way to signal that there might be some upcoming litigation or some settlement that's happening behind the scenes, right? You just never know. But yeah, it's...

reading his substack statement, Chris Himes, I was like, hmm, this is a quite vague description of what you're doing. he spoke about something around the lines of like, ethical AI and responsible AI being so critical and wanting to go focus on that. And then in the next paragraph was like a core component of indeed moving forward.

will be these AI agents and these talent scouts that are going to help each job seeker. And I was like, well, wouldn't you want to do the ethical responsible AI like at your company? it just, was kind of like, right. was like, I don't know. Reading in between the lines here. I'm not quite sure that you decided to go. mean, would, would be lovely. Wouldn't it be nice to just like up and quit your job right now? Like, like in this market, come on. But yeah, I think it's a little different for the average CEO to be moving on. So yeah.

Chad (17:58.08)

Yes.

Chad (18:03.881)

with a lot of money.

Chad (18:18.122)

Yeah.

Maureen Clough (18:22.296)

But yeah, they're shaking it up. Most other people are holding on to their jobs for their dear damn lives. And these guys are rolling on out to perhaps greener pastures. don't know.

Chad (18:31.851)

I think it's a little sus to be frank. I think it's a little sus. But I do think we have a recording of Chris's response when Deco said that he wanted his chair. Wait a minute. Can we get that audio?

I kid I kid I kid. So yeah, it's a new day at Indeed and it's about goddamn time. Himes should have been kicked out last year after the disastrous flirtation with CPSA and CPA. It was a total debacle. Both were rebranded pretty much bullshit products. Now, I'm personally a fan of CEOs innovating and unfortunately, Himes is not an innovator. Nope. the engine.

Maureen Clough (18:48.046)

That's awesome.

Chad (19:17.021)

out of the Indeed Ferrari and he dropped it in a fucking horse and buggy. mean, Indeed, slick, easy to use search engine with the best user experience in the industry, but Himes turned it into a job board with PaperClick. Woo, big deal. The user experience has been downgraded. PaperClick was introduced by the original founders, Paul Forster and Ronnie Khan over 15 years ago.

Maureen Clough (19:32.75)

you

Chad (19:44.851)

and indeed is still just a post spray and pray system that is now forcing companies, now forcing companies to pay more because the leader was too inept to figure out cost per qualified candidate for starters, for starters. Needless to say, I'm looking forward to see what Deco is gonna do. I believe he is much more disciplined and has a much better grasp.

on the recruit ecosystem.

So there's more indeed news. Next in the news, Hyam's farewell gift to the industry. Guess what? Higher prices branded as healthy budgets. So what the hell? Yeah.

Maureen Clough (20:33.72)

That is quite the euphemism there, man. my God. Bold.

Chad (20:35.795)

It's good, right? It's good. Wait, do we call it a price increase? No, we don't call it a price increase. We call it healthy budgets. can see like a Hollywood, know, the budget's healthy. anyway, so Julie, the job board doctor, so wash. Yes, she's she's very close and near and dear to my heart. She writes last week, quote, it's a what is a healthy budget? It's a minimum spend.

Maureen Clough (20:40.974)

Healthy budget.

Maureen Clough (20:47.724)

It is so hilarious.

Maureen Clough (20:57.774)

You

Chad (21:04.139)

spend, plain and simple. Before 2023, advertisers could set their own budget caps per job or campaign, giving programmatic providers the flexibility to move jobs in and out of performance, right? In other words, the model worked. If a job could be filled cost-effectively with, let's say, 10 bucks, it was. But then, Indeed decided to implement a hard minimum, $25 USD and 15

pounds in the UK per advertised job. That means eliminating or at least seriously devaluing programmatic optimization for agencies still choosing to play ball with the industry's biggest gatekeeper." quote. Mo, what do you make of these healthy budgets?

Maureen Clough (21:49.39)

Oof. Oof.

I mean, who's got a healthy budget in 2025, man? Like, come on, like read the room. I get that you don't want to call it a price increase because that's like pretty bad PR for you, but like, come on, come on. This is, you got to be thinking about other people and your customers. Like, what about putting your customers first? Like, I understand that you haven't innovated or made things happen the way you should at the company, but putting that on the backs of these agencies and scaling at what 2.5X for the cost, like that's ludicrous to me.

How did you think that was gonna land? Come on, like, is anyone happy about this? I doubt that, right? It's like, come on.

Chad (22:30.315)

Yeah, because I think agencies, first off, they're going to have to be screwing around and reformulating how they do campaigns, not to mention companies. mean, I've got some quotes. I'll share some quotes with you. so in proper indeed fashion, they introduce an arbitrary healthy budget rule, which has literally created a complicated version of a very simplistic model.

Maureen Clough (22:39.534)

Yeah.

Chad (22:56.405)

prices for clicks should rise and fall dynamically with the market. And if a position is not filled during a campaign, that campaign needs to be funded again. Pretty simple, right? Much like if you don't fill a job after 30 days, duration-based, what do you do? You buy another fucking job for God's sakes, right? You repost it. Indeed has done nothing more than create self-induced chaos and over-engineer a model that should have evolved.

Maureen Clough (23:07.468)

Mm-hmm.

Maureen Clough (23:15.041)

Exactly.

Chad (23:25.543)

not gotten more expensive. I've got some really cool quotes from some some industry leaders. Doug Monroe, CEO of Adzuna, who's actually a competitor. He's looking to throw a little shade. That's OK. We've seen the movie that he says we've seen this movie before. When you can't grow by improving the value you deliver to your customers anymore, you try to grow by squeezing them on price. It works for a bit and then it doesn't.

Maureen Clough (23:37.198)

You

Maureen Clough (23:49.624)

Mm.

Chad (23:52.811)

Again, throwing a little shade, but I totally get it. Then Martin Lentz, who's the CEO over at Jobbico in Austria, says, funny enough, moves like this can open doors for smaller job boards to win clients back. Could be a net positive for the job board ecosystem. And Martin also says, quote, indeed, lean's duration while StepStone, the most expensive post-based board globally, quietly launches

Maureen Clough (23:54.957)

Yeah.

Chad (24:20.829)

StepStone 360 higher, a programmatic budget model using AppCast tech. And he predicts there might be a collision course here. indeed, collision course with StepStone would be interesting because they're two very, very big organizations. And then last but not least, I'm saving the gravy because this is the good stuff. This is actually anonymous, but it's from an enterprise practitioner who uses Indeed. Quote.

Maureen Clough (24:31.264)

Interesting.

Maureen Clough (24:41.486)

haha

Chad (24:48.363)

If this enforcement change is accurate, it's not a small tweak, it's a shift in how we need to use Indeed. For us, it would likely mean cutting back on job volume, not increasing budget. Any roles that don't justify the $25 minimum just won't run. And we explore other options. My guess is it would reduce our Indeed spend by 15 to 20%. We've already...

been watching our investment there very closely and this would only push us to be even more selective. this practitioner, and I've heard from more as well, he just wanted to go semi, not on the record, but semi on the record. But it feels like many of these companies are just fed up with indeed bullshit. And that's why I, my honest opinion, right? And this is conspiracy theory, but I think that's why Chris, the curb to be quite frank. It means, you know,

Maureen Clough (25:28.867)

Mm-hmm.

Maureen Clough (25:39.694)

Interesting.

Chad (25:45.035)

Chris decided to leave in a very different way. But in talking to a lot of these enterprise companies, I'm getting to feel that this is just another win for bigger platforms like Paradox, Fountain, Smart Recruiters, Jam, and all the other systems of record that help hiring companies leverage candidates that they've already purchased that reside in their candidate databases. So this could be a desperate

Deja Vu money grab a collision course or a solid reason hiring companies start pulling budget from indeed and all of this after the CEO got canned. I mean my bad decided to leave a very fucked up storm for this poor guy Dico. I think he's got a lot of power. got a lot of money any any additional thoughts on on this and just it seems really weird all of this happening.

Maureen Clough (26:30.83)

He'll be all right.

Chad (26:41.693)

in this same scope of time.

Maureen Clough (26:44.736)

Yeah, no, I totally agree with your analysis there. And I think, you know, the fact that you have industry leaders saying what they did, of course, you know, some of them having a vested interest in throwing some shade. the industry insiders, especially those who are willing to talk off the record and tell you the scoop from their perspective as customers and prospective customers. mean, that that is very telling. Right. And and certainly, I think it is something that's going to open up the space for other competitors to come in and scoop up some unhappy customers of Indeed. So definitely seems like an own goal to me.

And yeah, I agree with your assessment that it seems highly unlikely that Chris Hyams really voluntarily decided to opt out. I think he probably having his hand forced just a tad.

Chad (27:26.175)

You know what this feels like? This feels like indeed tariffs. That's what we should call this. These are indeed tariffs. I don't know where. Yeah. Yeah. Indeed tariffs, indeed taxes, indeed taxes. Yeah, I mean, to say that it's an own goal, it's it's hard to see the force for the trees, right? When you're actually sitting in the CEO position, you know that there are yes men around you all.

Maureen Clough (27:34.06)

my gosh. Healthy budget or indeed tariffs. I love it. my gosh. It's hilarious.

Chad (27:55.515)

Not saying that they don't have some people that actually speak their mind, but I doubt that's the case. I've spoken to companies for years and also agencies for years who have been looking for reasons and ways to just get the fuck, just to stop spending money with Indeed. again, if Chris did decide to leave, good for him.

Maureen Clough (27:56.014)

That's a point.

Chad (28:21.803)

because it was way past time and I can't tell you because I sent a bunch of messages out asking you know what they thought of Chris leaving and every single one of them told him it is way too late. He should have left a long time ago. So enjoy your time away Chris. Enjoy your time away. We'll be right back with another little company called Workday.

Maureen Clough (28:40.888)

Rough. Rough.

Chad (28:52.691)

All right. Workday has been in the news. I'm sure you've seen this, But before we get rolling, I want to be able to show a video of Jeffrey Poole, who's actually the CEO of a startup called Warden AI. They're an AI compliance firm for HR tech companies. Jeffrey had a few words to say about the situation. So let's go ahead and roll that.

Maureen Clough (28:58.508)

Yes, I have. Big news.

Chad (30:24.683)

So if you're not aware of the case, I'm gonna give you a quick and dirty. I'm gonna give you the quick and dirty on the case. And this is something that's right down your alley, Mo. Derek Mobley, a black man over 40, claims he applied to over 100 jobs through companies using Workday's AI screening tools and was rejected every single time his lawsuit. Now, Greenlit, this is big.

Maureen Clough (30:34.926)

yeah, it is.

Chad (30:52.363)

to proceed as a class action suit alleges that Workday's algorithms discriminated against him based on age, race, and disability. And to be quite frank, whether it was all three or not, if they catch one of them, it's gonna be a fucking home run. The court's decision to allow the case to move forward suggests that AI-driven hiring practices may soon face the same scrutiny as their human counterparts. Mo, knowing you're an advocate of seasoned workers, not aged.

seasoned workers, what are your thoughts on this claim and it going class action?

Maureen Clough (31:24.649)

Aged workers.

So I think that there is a high likelihood that there is some merit to this case, but we don't know yet. We have to point out there's no, these are solely allegations at this point. We do know, however, that AI tools have created biased outcomes in the past for applicants. This is not the first time this has ever happened. Amazon had a tool that was found to actually be biased against women and it was used in the hiring process. So they had to sunset that once they figured it out. So that has happened. We also had a tool.

Chad (31:37.737)

Right. Yep.

Maureen Clough (31:57.518)

that was called iTutor. was a company called iTutor Group that was hit by the EEOC. And they were using AI to proactively screen out women over the age of 55 and men over the age of 60. Because of course, men got to age a little bit more than women because our world sucks. So this is a thing that definitely happens. There's bias in all humans. There's bias data in, bias data out. I think this is plausible. Age discrimination is one of the hardest types of discrimination cases to prove.

Chad (32:13.867)

Ugh.

Chad (32:26.603)

Mm.

Maureen Clough (32:26.624)

and it has the highest burden of proof. And typically, and I'm not a lawyer, I want to point this out, but my understanding is that it cannot usually be used in a mixed mode of fashion, which is why I'm interested in the race and age and what was it? Was it disability? Was that the third in here? Yeah, I'm interested in the fact that that has all three. Now, there were four other plaintiffs that have since joined the case and it is, I mean, I think this does have a lot of implications for

Chad (32:43.103)

Yep. Yep.

Maureen Clough (32:56.174)

a lot of companies everywhere because the question then is, do you have the responsibility as the company actually employing the technology or is it the company itself, Workday, that's providing these services that has the onus of ensuring that there's no way that bias can come into the fold? But this is, I think, probably going to be, I mean, if this is found to be legit, like imagine the size of this class action group. Like, holy, holy crap, what 11,000 companies use Workday.

everyone and their mom applies on workday platforms. Like even finding the people who are part of this class is going to be nuts. But I can tell you anecdotally, I've heard from countless people who've said that they've experienced, you know, a quick rejection, whether or not that actually is age discrimination remains to be seen. And quite frankly, I mean, I would never say I hope to see age discrimination out there. We all know it happens, but I will say if this does not found to have merit, it's

Chad (33:49.461)

Yes.

Maureen Clough (33:53.854)

I fear going to create somewhat of a chilling effect on other very legitimate cases of age discrimination. So it's weird to say, I hope it's legit. I hope it actually happened, but I kind of do in a way. But yeah, it's going to be really fascinating to watch this one come through. think there are massive implications. There's so much AI and non-AI, just all this technology that's out there in the hiring process. And all of them have the capacity to discriminate or have

bias against people for a variety of reasons. And as was suggested, my whole podcast, it gets laid early, is about ageism in the workplace. And it's one of the least discussed forms of discrimination, the most widespread, and the hardest to actually prove in court because of the way the Supreme Court rolled back in 2009. So this has big, big, big implications for all of us over the age of 40. And we will have to just see what happens. But yeah, very, very intrigued to see what happens.

Chad (34:48.201)

Yeah, well, just in case. again, we're not going to have a decision yet, but. Workday, come on workday, mean, because workday is recruitment module or what have you like that most people. I've heard many companies call it gift with purchase. It is something that companies get for free after they buy their buy the HCM right. So, you know, there's there's there's not all.

Maureen Clough (34:53.452)

No.

Maureen Clough (35:13.872)

yeah.

Chad (35:17.227)

as much thought and R &D put into that module, which to me, to be quite frank, I would be partnering with some other companies who focus laser focus on that. mean, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's ridiculous, right? But Workday has generated 8.45 billion in revenue, okay?

Maureen Clough (35:22.766)

Such a strong point.

Maureen Clough (35:28.45)

Yeah. Build.

Build by our partner, yeah. Don't open yourself up to this potential litigate. Yeah, fascinating. Good point. Yeah.

Maureen Clough (35:45.336)

Damn.

Chad (35:47.177)

Workday, you need to do better and you need to do it faster. On this show, we've had several experts, practitioners and government officials. We've talked about this specific topic of scaling bias with AI for years now, because humans have bias, no question. But take that bias from that one person, then scale it. Explosion, kids. That's what happens. We knew this was coming. Workday knew this was coming. If you take human bias and you train AI or

Maureen Clough (36:03.502)

Mm-hmm.

Maureen Clough (36:08.468)

Huge problem. Yeah.

Chad (36:16.917)

take a biased assessment and train AI or create a bias process and train AI. I mean, there are so many different situations, right? All that bias will scale incredibly fast. So remember again, Workday has no excuse to having a substandard product. They have 8.45 billion in revenues, okay? They've got plenty of money. Don't give me this, I can't.

Maureen Clough (36:38.178)

Yeah, it's fair. I didn't know.

Chad (36:42.123)

Crying for work day. I don't wanna fucking hear that shit, right? They got enough money, they should be able to do this stuff right. This is their job. Hopefully, moving this into a class action penalty territory scares the shit out of vendors into not releasing substandard products. That's what we need. And last but not least, if you're a vendor out there, listen to me, if you're a vendor out there in the HR space, I want you to take the word unbiased. And any cinem-cinemab-

Maureen Clough (36:55.586)

Yep. Everywhere. Yep.

Chad (37:11.015)

out there and strike it from your sales and marketing bullshit spiel, okay? Because we all know that there's no such thing as a base model piece of tech without bias. So let's try and revert back to the days of truth in advertising and stop acting like you're Elizabeth Holmes pitching Theranos, okay? I mean, it...

Maureen Clough (37:23.15)

agreed fully.

Maureen Clough (37:32.974)

Yeah. Sam Baker and Friede or any of those bastards, yeah.

Chad (37:38.877)

Yes, think so we start we start seeing fines for things like this, but they have to be bigger fines. They've got to be bigger fines. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Maureen Clough (37:44.012)

Yeah. They gotta be big. Yeah. It's like the drop of the bucket finds don't do shit. That's the reality. People like account for that and they just, you know, they have enough money to cover it so they're not inclined to change at all. It's so true. Problematic.

Chad (37:56.543)

Yeah. Well, and again, if you are a company like Workday, you're pretty much giving your recruitment module away for free anyway. Okay. In my, in my opinion, what I've heard in many companies and other vendors say it's, it's free with purchase, right? Okay. Then go ahead and lop that off and then start partnering with companies very closely so that they can take the risk. Yeah, they're going to get the revenue, but you're not really getting big revenues out of the recruiting side anyway.

Maureen Clough (38:26.253)

on point.

Chad (38:27.051)

At the end of the day, just be smart about how you do business. And this is for all of those big, all the acronym companies, the SAPs, the ADPs, the UKGs, all of them, right? If you can de-risk yourself, right? You make billions of dollars. We totally get that. But if you can de-risk yourself, especially on the recruiting side of the house, because we all know that you don't spend enough money in your recruiting modules, partner.

Maureen Clough (38:53.172)

I agree. You can even white label if you want, right? Like just bring in the best in class solution to your tool. And like if you want a one-stop shop, you can just pull that in. No one has to know. No one has to be the wiser, but don't open yourself up to this litany of bad press. mean, whether or not this goes and gets settled or they're found, you know, to have actually engaged in age discrimination, this is pretty bad press for work day.

Chad (38:56.608)

Yes.

Maureen Clough (39:15.074)

I know some people say there's no such thing as bad press. I kind of disagree. But anyway, I mean, there's already a lot of anger about like the annoyance of using an ATS like work day. mean, people are constantly bitching about it online. So like to have this sort of thing come to the surface is not helpful for your image. And yeah, I mean, again, like I weirdly kind of hope that this is found with merit because otherwise I just.

Chad (39:18.302)

I do.

Maureen Clough (39:39.872)

This happens everywhere. We see it all the time. It is legitimate. And I just don't want people to be afraid to speak up or to actually fight back when it's legitimate. let's pray there's such a weird thing to say, but you know what I mean.

Chad (39:53.993)

Yeah, we don't want to see you get nailed workday, although we want to make sure that if there is a case, that the case is brought and the rest of the industry can actually go ahead and see that there will be ramifications.

Maureen Clough (40:08.75)

Yeah. And one other thing is I wonder how much of this actually is like AI. know that AI is such a buzzword and it's brought into the conversation in order, I believe, often to just like bring eyeballs with it, right? And the fact of the matter is it's incredibly possible that Workday was doing all of this potentially without any AI at all. Like these tools can be programmed and is that on them to ensure you can't program them or it's just, it's an interesting conversation. But yeah, I'd be curious to see how much.

Chad (40:14.859)

Yes.

Chad (40:21.791)

Yeah.

Chad (40:29.023)

Yes. Yes.

Maureen Clough (40:37.684)

of this is AI related versus just like software related.

Chad (40:42.175)

Yeah, agree 100%.

Chad (40:50.185)

There we go. Okay, kids, you've probably never heard of these companies before, but this is one from TechCrunch. The dramedy continues as Deal, our friends Deal and Rippling. Deal, the $12 billion darling of global hiring has accused its arch nemesis Rippling of deploying a corporate espionage scheme that feels more like a misdirection for me. According to Deal,

Maureen Clough (40:50.7)

Hahaha

Maureen Clough (41:00.302)

You

Chad (41:18.963)

A rippling employee spent six months masquerading, masquerading as a customer to infiltrate their systems, allegedly to pilfer proprietary secrets and replicate their products. Masquerading, infiltrate, and pilfer. They went through the James Bond dictionary or some shit like that. This isn't the first salvo in the corporate cold war. no, kids. If you've been listening.

Maureen Clough (41:39.562)

That's amazing.

No.

Chad (41:48.467)

Earlier this year, Rippling accused Deal of enlisting a Rippling employee as a spy who, when confronted, reportedly destroyed his phone with an axe. that was after hiding in the bathroom, by the way. Hiding in the bathroom, trying to flush it down the toilet. wouldn't go down the toilet. Lawsuits are in California, Delaware, and even Ireland courts right now. Mo, is this a battle over business ethics or just...

Maureen Clough (42:00.718)

Right? Hiding in the bathroom. my gosh. Can't make it up. So funny.

Chad (42:17.265)

in audition for the next Kardashian reality TV show.

Maureen Clough (42:20.748)

Like truly, I actually want to sit down with a drink and read the entire complaint. Like it is hilarious. Like I actually just read a little bit of it and I was like, wow, this feels intensely personal. Like they're hurling insults that are like basically schoolyard style. And I'm like, can we just get these guys in like an MMA fight and just like call it good? Like you guys have this intense hatred for one another and it's just, it's hilarious. Honestly, it is hilarious. But yeah, it feels.

Chad (42:24.235)

Ha ha ha!

Chad (42:32.649)

It is.

Maureen Clough (42:49.91)

It feels like very tit for tat, like you did this, so I'm going to do that. like, know, manufacturing detail. mean, like you said, the language that's used there, masquerading, pilfering, whatever else the third one was, like it's so dramatic. Like, come on. It's like, who knew HR tech companies could be so exciting, right? Like this is, this is really hilarious. But legitimately, I'm curious to go through. It's like 125 page complaints. So like, maybe I'll have to have a whole bottle, but like it's.

Chad (42:59.753)

Yeah.

Chad (43:03.465)

It is.

Maureen Clough (43:18.004)

It looked really freaking funny. And I remember I was actually going through another article and I hadn't known this. I hadn't known that in the past, Rippling had actually opened up an investigation via a congressman in the US for an investigation with the Department of Labor, I guess, to see whether or not Deal was pretending that its employees were

actually were actually contractors in order to like save money and have enhanced performance and all this stuff. So they had raised the flag and I'm hoping I'm not mixing up the two because it is possible that mixing up who went after who. But the point is it's so much shit like you keep going back and peeling back the curtains. It's like, my gosh, this years ago involving like the Department of Labor and making all these accusations. And it's just like, wow, you guys, you really can't stop going at it one another's throats. Like it's just wild.

Chad (43:53.515)

There's so much shit in this thing. my God.

Maureen Clough (44:10.306)

But this is the gift that won't stop giving. mean, I just like, I love the story. I'm like, what's gonna happen next? Give me some popcorn.

Chad (44:15.999)

I think they threw all of the suits and all the information in the chat GPT just to start creating press releases. It's like come up with the craziest shit and then it, anyway, I'm feeling.

Chad (44:35.401)

So this is definitely turning into a mudslinging contest. Deal allegedly got caught red-handedly, red-handed, yes, not handedly, red-handed, yes, paying a spy in Rippling who worked for Rippling and then to counter Deal accuses Rippling of dealing with Russian companies around sanctions, which they're not allowed to do. And now this from TechCrunch.

Maureen Clough (44:39.469)

Yes.

Maureen Clough (44:44.046)

Yeah.

Chad (45:01.291)

quote, specifically deal alleges that one of Rippling's employees who holds the job title of competitive intelligence spent six months impersonating a legitimate deal customer to gain unauthorized access to deals system to meticulously analyze, record and copy deals global products and the way deal does business for Rippling's own benefit and use end quote. how did Rippling's competitive Intel person

gain access, number one. I mean, if you are a legit client company, as they state, how did they get access? I mean, how did they get access? And there's a ton, there's just a ton of noise that personally, I think it's a distraction. While Deal is trying to misdirect you, the listener, an HR practitioner slash buyer from thinking about.

Maureen Clough (45:40.942)

That's a very good question.

Chad (45:56.917)

their alleged Mr. Bean corporate espionage team. Personally, I'd steer clear, mean, again, this is me, you do what you do, but I would steer clear of both of these companies. Just the mudslinging that's happening, the bullshit that's happening, there are plenty other EOR types of organizations that are out there that you can deal with and not have to go through this fucking drama.

Maureen Clough (46:00.654)

Bozo. Yeah.

Maureen Clough (46:07.566)

you

Maureen Clough (46:17.802)

yeah.

Maureen Clough (46:22.552)

Dude, and they're poor employees. Imagine working at either of these companies right now. This has nothing to do with almost every single person at the organization, and yet they've been embroiled in this dramedy, as you said. They're like the punchline of every joke now. It's like, my gosh, how embarrassing. I feel for them. And man, if I were working there, I'd probably be fleeing for the exits, let's be honest. That's brutal.

Chad (46:32.681)

Yeah.

Chad (46:36.468)

You

Chad (46:49.301)

We just went to an event in Vegas about a month or so ago and Deal had a big booth right at the entrance. And you walked in and you could see the people kind of like looking side eye. It's like, what the fuck are they doing here? I mean, and I get it, they still have to do business. And I'm not saying that they shouldn't be doing business, but.

Maureen Clough (47:07.807)

Awkward, yeah.

Chad (47:14.879)

when you go over and you start having those discussions, Rippling was in the back corner, by the way. So they were both there. But it's just really, really fucking.

Maureen Clough (47:25.87)

It's so bizarre. just, yeah, my heart goes out to any employees who are caught up in all this. Brutal. So bizarre. Yeah.

Chad (47:31.423)

How bizarre, how bizarre, okay. We've got one more to go kids. Yeah, that's right. I think you're probably gonna like this bunker.

Chad (47:44.723)

All right, so this one could prospectively give you nightmares, kids. I'm just gonna play this video clip. I'm gonna play this video clip so you can see it and then gonna talk about it on the other side. Here we go.

Maureen Clough (47:51.47)

What doesn't this year?

Chad (48:27.371)

Holy shit.

Maureen Clough (48:32.216)

That's...

Maureen Clough (48:54.542)

Hmm. Sure did.

Chad (48:58.027)

So on top of that, in an Axios article, Dario Amandai, CEO of Anthropix said, quote, AI could wipe out half of all entry level white collar jobs and spike unemployment to 10 % 20 % in the next five years. it sounds like it's time to start stockpiling that doomsday bunker. What do you think?

Maureen Clough (49:19.214)

Dude, hell yeah. mean, what do those tech CEOs know that we don't? They're all building doomsday bunkers and have been for a while now. So I'm like, all right, all right, what should we be doing here? I don't have billions of dollars, unfortunately, so I doubt the bunker is gonna happen for me specifically. I'm like, hearing all this, can we resurface that whole universal basic income concept that I thought was like core to at least Sam Altman's idea of what we should do in the face of all this changing technology?

Chad (49:26.987)

They are,

Maureen Clough (49:48.11)

This seems to be happening so incredibly rapidly that no one knows what the F is going on. And it's like, who's driving the bus here? know, like it seems like the robots are. And that doesn't make me feel super warm and fuzzy inside. It makes me feel a little terrified. And I know there've been some recent developments like with AI trying to be turned off by a user and then AI going to blackmail said user with like details that had been fed to them about said user. And I was like,

Chad (50:12.341)

Yes, yes.

Maureen Clough (50:17.216)

This is like literally straight out of HBO Silicon Valley. Like this all freaking happened. Like Guilfoyle was like, dude, I'm paying close attention to our robot overlords and I'm going to say please and thank you and I'm going to treat them with respect. This is bizarre. I don't, frankly, I don't know how much of it is like hype and hysteria and, you know, coming from certain messengers, you have to wonder about their reasoning behind sharing said details. Like is it?

going to just help them, right? Are they raising money, perhaps, for example? And then how much of it is legit? And when I see the sheer power of what these tools can do after only so long they've been in the public domain as generative AI tools accessible to us, I am like, actually think a lot of crazy shit's possible based on how good this stuff is. It is so freaking good. It's uncanny. That video you just showed us, that like sent a chill down my spine.

Chad (50:47.358)

Exactly.

Maureen Clough (51:13.498)

Like, I know it was really a banal topic of like planning trips, but like think of how else that could go. anyway, I don't I don't want to be a doomsday or naysayer type, but like, like, please someone get the rails on this thing. Like, who's going to stand up? Who is going to regulate this stuff? Who's going to actually give a flying fuck about A.I. ethics and responsibility so that we don't find ourselves in this dystopian fucking nightmare? Like, who's going to do it? I want to know. So far, I'm like,

Chad (51:20.789)

Yeah.

Chad (51:42.132)

Yeah.

Maureen Clough (51:43.382)

I don't see anyone rising to the occasion.

Chad (51:48.098)

As I said in Europe, see Europe is the only one looking to actually protect as the current administration in the US is actually telling the rest of the world, if you have any government contracts at all, you need to get rid of DEI and you need to stay away from our AI. So you've got that. That's one thing. Then you're talking about UBI, so universal basic income.

That's going to be hard as fuck to be able to do in the US when they're doing the tax cuts that they're looking to do. Right. So how are you going to pay for that shit. Right. Not to mention we don't have tax schemes in place to be able to have robots or companies who are actually displacing workers and a tax base because obviously there's no income. There's no tax base. Right. You have to be able to displace that. So how do you do that. How do you tax those companies to ensure that there is you be available and then

Maureen Clough (52:20.278)

true.

Chad (52:43.743)

Last but not least, the real versus fake, I think we are getting played in many cases. So Klarna, we got played by Klarna. let's just say we got played by builder.ai. got build, both of them, right? They took half a billion dollars at Builder and now they're like winding shit down, right? Klarna.

Maureen Clough (52:52.054)

Yes, we did. 100 % of hype.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Chad (53:05.855)

gets rid of 700 people, no they didn't, no they didn't, they actually fucking offshored those and they weren't FTEs, so therefore they weren't on their rolls. So I mean, it's like we've gotta really take a look at what's real versus fake. I think those types of organizations, we're gonna see a lot of those, there are gonna be a lot of fakes. We need to call that fraud, they need to be in orange jumpsuits, but, but, there are amazingly smart people that are out there where I think this is real.

Maureen Clough (53:10.99)

Hmm.

Maureen Clough (53:18.083)

Right?

Maureen Clough (53:26.83)

Thank

Chad (53:33.803)

So we're gonna be, I think we're gonna see a lot of this fake shit come through and then we're just gonna get numb to it and go, ah, that's not a big deal. And the next thing you know, we have 20 % unemployment.

Maureen Clough (53:43.842)

Yeah, unemployment. Yeah. It's certainly spooky. And I agree with you. There is more than meets the eye. A lot of people are saying one thing and actually doing another. There's a lot of fabrication happening. And so, yeah, you have to be discerning. So good news, the American average person is super discerning and very intelligent, right? Just kidding. But just kidding. So yeah, it's going to be a wild ride. I mean, it's like,

Chad (54:06.446)

Just kidding.

Maureen Clough (54:12.898)

we're all strapped into a roller coaster that we didn't necessarily elect to get on, right? And we're going down, we're going on those loops together. So I just, you I try to be as positive about it as possible and I do see some incredible applications of AI. I see it as democratizing access to entrepreneurship and unfurling like a lot of opportunity for people who wouldn't otherwise have had it and an ability to learn new skills and do more with less. All of that stuff is super cool. And then I see the darker side, right?

Chad (54:43.573)

and you have to breathe. But I'd like to speak for America because talking about us like that, you

Maureen Clough (54:43.798)

Yeah, you have to breathe.

Chad (54:53.131)

Well, I know that which is why it's a little bit easier. Mo, it's been real. It's been fun. Thanks a lot for coming back. We haven't seen you forever. Hopefully you come back sometime incredibly soon before Nebworth, before Nebworth. Next week, the Cheez Man is going to be back. But until then, we out.

Maureen Clough (54:55.448)

But you're in Portugal. So you got out.

Maureen Clough (55:03.278)

So fun.

Maureen Clough (55:08.492)

Yes. Before and after, for sure.

We out!