Monopoly Pricing Power, Indeed

What happens when HR tech giants crush earnings while the rest of the industry faces massive layoffs? In this special episode of The Chad & Cheese Podcast, Joel Cheesman is joined by guest co-host J.T. O'Donnell to deliver a dose of optimistic realism on the chaotic state of the 2026 job market.

Before diving into the heavy-hitting industry news, the duo kicks things off with plenty of humor, swapping banter over deviled egg recipes, Memorial Day cookout plans, upcoming European travel, and why Southwest Airlines is making headlines with a strict new ban on humanoid robots.

They also share a quick streaming recommendation for Apple TV's Your Friends and Neighbors and give a nod to the Crime Junkies podcast before getting down to business.The core of the episode spotlights a deeply divided job market where massive tech layoffs collide with explosive corporate growth.

Joel and J.T. break down the staggering down-sizing trends hitting Meta and LinkedIn, contrasting those cuts with the massive, expectation-shattering earnings report just released by Recruit Holdings, the parent company of Indeed and Glassdoor.

J.T. lends her expertise to LinkedIn’s aggressive new strategy to launch thousands of gated, paid creator-led virtual events to combat generic platform "slop."

Finally, the hosts look at the changing face of automation, analyzing how artificial intelligence is shifting call center dynamics abroad, and exploring Amazon’s eerie new Alexa capability that generates fully synthetic podcasts on demand.

PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION

Joel Cheesman (00:30.798)

yeah, we are gathered here today to get through this thing called life. Hey boys and girls, it is the Chad and cheese podcast. I'm your cohost Joel shaped by American innovation. Cheeseman.

JT ODonnell (00:43.948)

And I'm JT, it's deviled egg season, O'Donnell.

Joel Cheesman (00:47.936)

And on this episode of HR's most dangerous podcast, tech companies keep cutting heads, indeed keeps counting profits and offshoring while it keeps growing. Let's do this.

Joel Cheesman (01:04.364)

I'm sorry, deviled egg season? Is that what you just said?

JT ODonnell (01:06.104)

Yeah, I just feel like it's the season of picnics. And anytime you go anywhere now, it's deviled eggs on the menu, deviled eggs at the party. It's deviled egg season. You know what I'm talking about, people. Message me if you know what I'm talking

Joel Cheesman (01:10.19)

Is this a New England thing?

Joel Cheesman (01:16.117)

Okay.

Joel Cheesman (01:19.598)

Do you, the garden parties, the summer get togethers, barbecues, Memorial Day is coming up. Memorial Day is coming up. Uh-huh.

JT ODonnell (01:24.578)

Yes, barbecues. mean, you're in Indiana. I'm in New England. Yeah, we're all wearing shorts, even if it's 40 at this point, right? Mentally, we've moved into the winter clothes have to go away and you're going to see, message me if there's deviled eggs at your Memorial Day party. We all know there will be. Someone's making a

Joel Cheesman (01:35.786)

yeah.

Yeah, it's.

Joel Cheesman (01:43.672)

Definitely white guy cargo short season where I am for sure.

JT ODonnell (01:46.296)

And they're getting super bougie these days with caviar and you know what I mean? Like everybody's making these bougie deviled eggs, not just the traditional ones. So.

Joel Cheesman (01:56.174)

Do you have a recipe? Do you bring some? What's yours?

JT ODonnell (01:58.884)

Okay, the one I'm going to be trying, thank you for asking, has bacon dust in the egg yolk, pureed thing in the middle, Caviar, and then stuck in the side is a black truffle chip. Like, know, truffles. It's like a black truffle, it's like, mean, hey, boo-gee. But I'm gonna try it, because I'm a devil date girl.

Joel Cheesman (02:04.344)

huh.

Joel Cheesman (02:09.867)

Okay.

Joel Cheesman (02:19.544)

Sure. Okay.

Joel Cheesman (02:26.226)

Secret ingredient, try this sometime. Put wasabi in the mix. Little wasabi, little kick, little kick.

JT ODonnell (02:30.961)

I'm down for that. I love wasabi. I want to learn to make sushi. I want to figure that out. I love sushi,

Joel Cheesman (02:38.786)

Have you seen the, the sushi tacos? This is new. So it's, it's the seaweed and it, shape it as a taco and then you deep fry it. So it creates the taco crust is seaweed and then you load it with sushi stuff. And then it's a, it's a sushi taco. Next time you're in New York or any kind of big city, there's probably go search Yelp or whatever for sushi tacos.

JT ODonnell (02:41.763)

No.

JT ODonnell (02:45.987)

Okay.

JT ODonnell (02:53.45)

Ugh.

JT ODonnell (02:59.448)

Sounds very good. That sounds very, good. Okay.

Joel Cheesman (03:07.936)

and see if there's a spot and go have, I've not had them yet, but they look delicious on social media. And I will, when I get out of Indiana at some point, I'll, I'll see these. So, so you mentioned, cookout season Memorial days coming up. That'll be next week. But this weekend, officially in Indianapolis, it starts cause we have the Indy 500, this weekend. And this is the first year we're loading up the minivan with all the kids and three kids and us, and we're doing the Indy 500.

JT ODonnell (03:11.396)

Alright.

JT ODonnell (03:22.435)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (03:37.838)

Pretty excited about that.

JT ODonnell (03:39.086)

Do they still have like the place in the center where people have like their RVs, like you're kind of in the pit around it? Do you know what I mean? You see that it's, yes. Are you in the snake pit?

Joel Cheesman (03:44.494)

The snake pit. Yeah. Yes. You, we're not, we're not parking in the, in the field this year. We did like, we did last time we went. So we'll be on the outskirts. But yes, if, if, if you're a sports fan at all, the 500 should be on your bucket list, just like the Kentucky Derby. Like there are certain things that you should do. The Indy 500 is one of them. Uh, very American, but yes, tons of, yeah, tons of just America in a, in a

JT ODonnell (04:04.462)

So American, yes.

Joel Cheesman (04:14.104)

dome seated, not a dome, but like a big, as American as it gets, the Indy 500. Last time we went, they had helicopters, guns. mean, this year I think Brandon Frazier, Caitlin Clark is gonna be there. David Letterman is always there. It's just a very, very tasty piece of Americana, like a deviled egg, I guess.

JT ODonnell (04:38.21)

love it. Will we see pictures on social media, Is that are we going to see them?

Joel Cheesman (04:42.486)

I'm sure I'm sure that we will. I'm sure the pictures that my children take and the ones we take will be different. My kids will probably be like, look at my dorky dad in his, you know, whatever the hell I'm wearing. still have to go get a really obnoxious patriotic t-shirt to wear. I'm kind of leaning towards the flannel with the cutoff sleeves and the Paps blue ribbon, patch on the back.

JT ODonnell (04:49.22)

Totally different.

JT ODonnell (05:07.382)

man. True story. I'm out in California on a wine tour and we fall in love with this couple who bought a dilapidated plum farm. We were their last people of the day. They brought us on their porch. They're pouring wine. We're having the best time. The guy is amazing and he says, I'll come show you where I make the wine. We go in, opens a fridge and it's just filled with PBR kinkers. Top, that's all, PBR kinkers. We go, what's going on? And he goes, takes a lot of PBR to make a good wine.

I will never forget that quote for as long as I live, right? Every time I see one.

Joel Cheesman (05:39.234)

I had no idea how you gonna bridge that from PBR to wine, but you did great. You did very well. You did very well. Let's get to shout out, shall we?

JT ODonnell (05:41.174)

Amazing, Amazing, right? Yeah. Get it, get it.

Joel Cheesman (05:50.924)

All right. My first shout out, goes to Southwest airlines. I don't know if you've seen this story, but, it was only a matter of time. Some Jackass showed up in Dallas with a robot, for the flight robot called Stewie. like maybe a three foot tall humanoid, I guess, if you will, he's posted videos of this robot in the, in the airport.

giving high fives, doing some Michael Jackson dancing. Well, obviously Southwest wasn't too hip on a robot coming on the flight. So they have apparently officially barred humanoids, robots, et cetera, from coming onto their flights. I assume they won't be the last airline to do so. They have identified it as a security risk because these things have batteries and batteries do what batteries do. But I'm sure they don't want to flight.

full of robots that people bring onto these things. They don't allow pets under any circumstances. They shouldn't allow robots under any circumstances. Stewie is the name of this robot. Stewie, I'm okay with you flying the plane, but I'm not okay with you sitting between me and my Jack and Coke. So no robots on flights. So shout out to Southwest Airlines for...

JT ODonnell (07:08.036)

When you said this, thought you were gonna, I thought you were saying that he was gonna claim Stewie was his companion animal, because they do make exceptions for the companion annual, right? You know, it's only a matter of time. This is my AI buddy.

Joel Cheesman (07:16.962)

Well, you know that's coming, too.

Joel Cheesman (07:21.708)

I mean, they're making robot dogs and cats and everything else. mean, so those things are going to want to their people are crazy and robots are coming and they want to come on flights with us. And, I'm not hip to it. I'm not hip to it. What you got.

JT ODonnell (07:37.444)

My shout outs to the podcast, Crime Junkies. So I decided that I needed to listen to something other than business news all the time, take a break and not stare at a screen. I got on and said, what are the top podcasts? It's number five, apparently. you know, flipped on and picked one and went down the rabbit hole. And now I don't look at any human the same. Let me just tell you, I'm walking around now watching everything. Like they have me so dialed in.

Joel Cheesman (07:58.827)

Okay.

JT ODonnell (08:07.266)

that I literally have to take a break from it. I have to limit how much I can listen to crime junkies because this little engineering brain is starting to manufacture, everyone's a suspect. Everyone's a suspect now, thanks to crime junkies. So I appreciate the awareness.

Joel Cheesman (08:07.724)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (08:13.334)

Okay.

Joel Cheesman (08:21.23)

Do you remember the podcast? Do you remember dirty John?

JT ODonnell (08:25.7)

Oh gosh, watch the whole thing. Yes, that's my point. This is like a dirty John every episode, but it's like sitting around the campfire and they keep, you only listen to it. So the plot twists and turns and I'm sure everybody's going to message me now and go, where have you been? This thing has been around since like 2017, but I'm always late to the party on everything. Let me be clear when it comes to that kind of stuff. So I'm here for it. I got a lot to listen to, but look out if you're around me now because I'm not going to trust you anymore. And they're teaching me. So there you have it.

Joel Cheesman (08:27.895)

you

Joel Cheesman (08:39.084)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (08:45.325)

Okay.

Joel Cheesman (08:54.53)

so, so dirty John, that, for those who don't know dirty John is basically a love story where the guy was a total fraud and what he told the woman he was. don't know. Did he have another family? Like just a total wormhole of, deceit and evil in this guy. So I'm with my wife and she's, she's listening to this podcast. have no idea that she is. She starts. Let's say acting differently around me. And at one point it's like, what is going on?

JT ODonnell (09:07.949)

Yes.

JT ODonnell (09:19.585)

You

Joel Cheesman (09:24.788)

And sure enough, she was listening to this dirty John and she, unlike probably a lot of other wives, girlfriends, whatever out there were like, is he really the man I think he is? Like, is there something to hide? And she started treating me. No, there was nothing there, but she thought there might be. So just be careful when you do the, when you consume this stuff, cause a lot of people might suffer that don't deserve to suffer.

JT ODonnell (09:47.758)

Fair enough, fair warning, fair warning.

Joel Cheesman (09:50.734)

By the way, speaking of late to the party, we talked, we always talk about stuff we're streaming. Uh, your friends and neighbors. I'm on season one. You're, you're, you're well into it. And I'm sure a lot of our, so don't, no spoilers here, but, great show. John Ham, Amanda Pete. I'm sure there are new stars that come into season two. Um, what, what's interesting about it is it's, it's a total mess, at least so far message of rich people suck.

JT ODonnell (09:56.516)

JT ODonnell (10:00.642)

I'm caught up, I'm caught up.

JT ODonnell (10:06.264)

Great show.

Joel Cheesman (10:20.524)

That's basically the message and it's rich people fucking other rich people, not literally. So I feel like it's a message that resonates today with a lot of people that rich people suck and it's like a deep dive into their lives and how they really suck. anyway, great acting, great storytelling. John Hamm could be in anything and I would enjoy it, but you're a fan too.

JT ODonnell (10:41.272)

Right. I'm a huge fan and I think defining more that beyond rich people suck that the level at which they're at and play at, like their definition of problems are just so different than somebody else's definition of problems, right? So they're arguably suffering in anguish and whatnot, but you just, you look at it go, I can't even imagine being on that level. So to me that part's fascinating.

Joel Cheesman (10:56.93)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (11:07.107)

Yeah.

JT ODonnell (11:10.308)

And the complexity of the stuff he gets into is fantastic. Fantastic.

Joel Cheesman (11:15.692)

Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's getting interesting. If you haven't checked it out, I it's, it's on Apple TV. again, rich people shit. Not everyone has Apple TV. you know, there's some privilege there, I guess with us, but yeah, if you have Apple TV, make sure you check out your friends and neighbors and make sure guys, what's even better than that is free shit from Chad and cheese. So make sure you head out to Chadcheese.com slash free, just like our friend, Steven McGrath says.

Joel Cheesman (12:57.048)

The World Cup is starting soon. I don't know if you're paying any attention to that, but Scotland will be in the States. The Tartan Army is coming to America. I know Stephen is particularly excited about all that. Are you going to watch the World Cup?

JT ODonnell (12:58.308)

Mm.

JT ODonnell (13:12.324)

I'm more of a welcome to Wrexham gal. I need backstory. And I've really enjoyed that series, understanding how that all works. They just dropped the season right now. It's interesting. You learn a lot, right? You know what it reminds me of? I'm so dating myself, but you're a Gen Xer. Do you remember the wild world of sports on Saturdays and how they would always tell you the story about the athlete?

Joel Cheesman (13:21.173)

Okay.

Joel Cheesman (13:31.331)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (13:34.958)

Sure.

JT ODonnell (13:38.34)

You know, that has always been more exciting to me, probably my storytelling background. So I need a little context, but I'm sure they'll be bringing it and I'll probably get sucked in once the World Cup gets going. I'm just curious. Have we seen any more updates? they, are they filling stadiums at $2,000 a ticket?

Joel Cheesman (13:53.176)

Ooh, I think that's, that's going to be a big story going forward. as jet fuel prices increase and prices go, go through the roof. I think that people will be challenged to come in a way that they have, but I mean, there will be people there for sure. think Kansas city and other cities that are sort of tier two will have a hard time. Interestingly, you and I have talked about concerts in the past. Have you, have you seen the blue dot epidemic that's in the news? So this is interesting. A lot of, a lot of.

JT ODonnell (13:55.681)

Mm-hmm, I do too.

JT ODonnell (14:17.699)

No.

Joel Cheesman (14:21.998)

A lot of acts have canceled their shows for the summer. I know Post Malone, I think a lot of others. So it's called the blue dot epidemic, which is if you go to Ticketmaster and you search tickets, they have blue dots for the seats that are available. So it's called blue dot epidemic because these shows have really high ticket prices, but the stadiums are filled with blue dots because they're unsold tickets. So the public can actually see how good a

JT ODonnell (14:29.252)

Hmm

Joel Cheesman (14:50.83)

tour is doing by how many blue dots are on, you know, their ticket master thing. So a lot of artists are freaking out because, my God, all the blue dots are not selling tickets. And then, so they're canceling shows. So you and I've talked about concerts and the prices of them. So it's, it's coming to roost for a lot of artists this summer.

JT ODonnell (14:53.316)

JT ODonnell (15:04.629)

Yeah.

JT ODonnell (15:10.046)

You know, in general, remember, it was all about post pandemic, everyone was going to pay a premium for experiences now. They weren't going to amass stuff anymore. Nobody's going to buy stuff. It's all going to be experience. And like per usual, they just kept jacking it up until now. What do you do? You know?

Joel Cheesman (15:17.453)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (15:24.014)

Well, think artists were told a story of look, we're streaming music. You're not getting paid what you used to. And we were selling CDs. You'll be able to make it up in live shows. And unless your name is Taylor Swift or those high level folks, Beyonce, you're going to have a hard time making the kind of money that you want, from live shows. I don't think there's a plan B for them. I don't like, I don't know if you can't do shows. I don't know. Maybe linked LinkedIn lives. I don't know.

JT ODonnell (15:41.784)

Thanks.

JT ODonnell (15:49.112)

I will tell you, the paid telegram is surging. So what I've seen more and more, I think I mentioned on a show before, again, all comes back to social media paid, whether it's OnlyFans or whatever platform, that idea of gated content and the ability to feel connected to the creator seems to continue to surge.

Joel Cheesman (15:55.854)

Hmm.

Joel Cheesman (16:10.06)

Yeah. Well, speaking of events.

Joel Cheesman (16:14.968)

So I don't think you have any travel coming up for business. You're, you're home base for awhile. Golf season, it's deviled egg season. It's, it's a, it's new Englanders living their best life. But, so we have breakfast coming up. know Chad was recently in London. I he's in some museum now today, which is why he's not with us. I am excited to be taking the month of June off from the show.

JT ODonnell (16:16.804)

I am staying put and it's summer, it's golf season, it's summertime, so I'm good staying put, yeah. Exactly.

JT ODonnell (16:33.828)

You

JT ODonnell (16:40.164)

Mmm.

Joel Cheesman (16:41.806)

announcing it now. I'm going to Italy with my wife for a couple of weeks. She's doing a conference. I've never been to Italy. We're doing Venice, we're doing Rome, we're doing Milan. I think another city I can't remember. But if you have any Italy tips for me out there in listener land or JT, feel free to drop those on me. And then shortly thereafter, Cole, my oldest

JT ODonnell (16:48.6)

Mm.

Joel Cheesman (17:06.798)

People listen to the show know that I take him to Europe with me for a rec fest every year. This is our fourth year. did general England first year. did, uh, Dublin or Ireland second year. Last year we did Berlin this year. He wants to do Paris. So we'll do the Paris thing before London. Um, so I have, I have that travel. You'll miss me in June. Sorry. I'll be back for, for the rest of the summer, but do you have it aside from business? Do you have any personal stuff travels you want to talk about? You good.

JT ODonnell (17:10.167)

us.

JT ODonnell (17:21.284)

you

JT ODonnell (17:35.402)

So again, it's like this is the time of year where you want to be outdoors. It doesn't get dark till 8 p.m. The weather's good. I want to be here as much as possible. So no plans, you know, other than going to see the daughter in Florida. But do I really want to do that in middle of summer? No. So I'm staying put. I'll hold down the fort for you with the others. June, you're welcome, Joel. We'll hang here for you. It is. And it's lovely.

Joel Cheesman (17:40.44)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (17:45.112)

Got it.

Joel Cheesman (17:49.347)

Got it.

Joel Cheesman (17:54.222)

Stick, yeah, I think you'll be fine. Stick season is over and New Englanders are going wild. Yeah, so remember our travel is sponsored by our friends at Shaker Recruitment Marketing. Any Italy tips for me? Have you been? Drink lots of wine and pasta, I guess.

JT ODonnell (18:11.876)

have not been to Italy, I have not, but I lived in France for a year. So Paris is spectacular. They're obviously the must see things, but just the one thing I would say is watch the crowds, right? Keep an eyeball on, know, try to go to the things not on the busy day, you know? Exactly, people watching. One little tip if you've never been to the Greek Quarter.

Joel Cheesman (18:16.587)

okay.

Joel Cheesman (18:20.418)

Mm-hmm, been many times.

Joel Cheesman (18:28.11)

That's the best part of Paris, sitting at a cafe, drinking wine, watching the world.

JT ODonnell (18:37.024)

It's kind of an experience. They're all standing outside throwing plates everywhere. It's like right out of a movie. Absolutely worth it.

Joel Cheesman (18:44.812)

get to topics.

Joel Cheesman (18:51.758)

All right. Tech layoffs continue to be big news in 2026, a hundred thousand layoffs in tech a year today. Last week, LinkedIn cut 5 % of their workforce, roughly 875 jobs in a reorganization. Despite revenue growth by the parent company, Microsoft meta also begins 10 % haircut with 8,000 or so layoffs this week to fund massive AI spending with more layoffs expected.

Meta told employees that the reductions are quote, all part of our continued effort to run the company more efficiently and to allow us to offset the other investments we're making. That's right. think the year of efficiency at Meta is in year four by my account. JTF AI isn't taking jobs. The market has a funny way of showing it. What are your thoughts on the recent layoff news?

JT ODonnell (19:35.587)

Yeah.

JT ODonnell (19:43.076)

Well, before we started, we both talked about it. I think we're going to double the amount of layoffs in 2026 that we saw in 2025. mean, 92,000 tech layoffs in April alone, and they just keep coming. You know, as they say in friends and neighbors, in fact, my husband says I say this too much now, two things can be true. Ever since I heard it on there, I keep saying it. He's like, it's getting annoying. You're saying it a lot, but two things can be true right now. AI is taking jobs and companies are reorging. So stop saying it's one or the other.

Joel Cheesman (19:49.857)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (20:12.27)

Are they going to hire? Of course. It's not like they're going to stop hiring. know, they'll probably cut 14,000, but by the end of the year, hire back another eight. It just won't be the same people. And so that's the piece that's been so interesting to me. we're also going to talk a little bit later about where some of these jobs are going. something I predicted for a while coming out of the pandemic that just Americans didn't listen to, you know, and so any job seeker out there, anybody listening, it's the law of supply and demand, pay close attention to the market. Anyone's jobs at risk right now.

Joel Cheesman (20:15.587)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (20:39.416)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (20:42.404)

If there's too many people just like you, that's a problem. so, yeah, it's going to be a ride, I think, for another 18 months.

Joel Cheesman (20:54.958)

So the anti-AI voices are increasing. You've probably seen the commencement speeches. We talked about Central Florida last week, but also Eric Schmidt, former CEO of Google in Arizona getting booed. I think some other less known commencement speakers have mentioned AI. the kids are fighting back. There are voices. Scott Galloway is a popular one. He recently had a post.

JT ODonnell (21:21.112)

Mmm.

Joel Cheesman (21:23.64)

called Apocalypse No, talking about how that the AI apocalypse was a lot of hot air, a lot of bullshit. Even Jeff Bezos has talked recently about how AI is going to increase opportunities and jobs in the future. And this is a guy whose company, former company, has more robots than most countries do. If he's saying it, that's so the, so the voices of like AI is going to take your job.

are starting to wane. I think that if you have that narrative as a company, you put your risk at getting Molotov cocktailed by people and getting killed on the streets of New York. So there are many reasons to tone down the rhetoric on that. But for me, I always like to follow the money. And if you look at Microsoft and Metta's stock price over the last, let's call it year to date,

It's either down, it's either sideways. And this is in a time where Google and video like big tech, your competitors seeing their stock rise significantly. So it's really easy to say, you know what, we're going to go AI and cut headcount and be more efficient, which investors say, okay, you're going to be more profitable because you're doing that. In the old days, you had to say we're cutting headcount to like

You know, not AI just because well, we're not doing that well, or we're changing course. Today, companies can get cloud cover by saying we're going AI, so we're cutting heads and the market rewards that. As long as the market rewards that, companies are going to still come out and say like, hey, we don't need as many tech people. We're going to AI everything and our stock value will go up. What I do think is interesting about Metta is they're clearly spending so much money on AI that

This is partly the head, the cuts are partly because we're spending so much on AI that we can't afford the folks that we have. The other piece of this thing is really interesting is you kind of mentioned it. I think there's a revaluing of the profession of these jobs that companies aren't really talking about. saying, okay, look, we need you, but not at the price that we've been paying you. So we're going to lay you off and in six months to a year.

JT ODonnell (23:25.38)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (23:46.969)

we're gonna start hiring you back at a lot lower value. That is something I think going on that a lot of people aren't talking about. And I think it's real. I think that people are realizing, look, if you have a co-pilot or an agent helping you code, don't need to, you're not, your value isn't what it was or what it is currently. We can't just say, hey, we're gonna pay you 20 % less. We're gonna fire you and pay you back at 80 % of what you were earning before we let you go.

JT ODonnell (23:50.756)

you

Joel Cheesman (24:15.148)

I think that's a narrative that needs more attention. Your thoughts?

JT ODonnell (24:17.886)

I, so first all, I agree. If you go back to some of the, I wouldn't say episodes when we first started talking about AI, we were regularly saying AI is not going to take your job. It's the person that learns how to use AI that will. And this whole idea of being the brains behind the bot. So if you know how to do the job of 10 people with AI, you're worth money, right? I don't need to pay you 10 salaries, but I'll probably pay you four. And so that's what is happening right now as people get more proficient with it. And I think we'll, we'll see again, this huge.

Joel Cheesman (24:33.549)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (24:47.876)

surge of people who move forward as a result. I agree with you. It's very talked about, but there's also another piece that I want to ask you about. When you have as much technical debt as so many of these companies have, when you have so much infrastructure debt and all of a sudden something comes along that allows new startup companies to be so nimble and to build something similar, if not better, so inexpensively, you have to start thinking about where can I cut to free up the money to use the AI to stay in the game?

And as we've seen the increasing costs of AI associated with it, you have to ask yourself if more and more they're just saying like, look, our stuff's old. There's no fix. You know, there's almost a need, a do-over, a start over, learn what we've learned and go forward. How are we going to do that? We're going to do it with AI. need a lot of money for that. And then we're going to need the smart people to create that because we've already talked multiple times about startups getting acquired right now, AI startups, because the company realizes I don't want to build it internally. I'll just buy that and pull it in.

So I think there's a lot of that too. Like let's free up cash because as soon as we see something worth buying, let's grab it. There's just so much that's going into these ideas right now. And all it comes down to, if you have the cash, if we freed up money, we can stay agile enough to survive.

Joel Cheesman (26:03.778)

Yeah. There's definitely a sense, I think of, of keeping our powder dry, being flexible to whatever the future holds. mean, look, there's a ton of geopolitical risk. There's a ton of economic risk, inflation risk, tariff risk, immigrate. Like there's so much risk. think a lot of companies like, look, let's just, let's just hoard cash. and we'll figure it out going forward. I think China AI is cheaper than what we're doing, or does like, that's a thing.

JT ODonnell (26:32.707)

Hmm?

Joel Cheesman (26:32.96)

electric cars, gas cars. mean, like countries are dealing with big forces of our people being happy or not based on what other countries are doing. And that's going to come to roost. think with lot of, a lot of people as well. think you can look at this in recruiting as well. Like the skillset of recruiting of what we know is recruiting, let's call it 10 years ago is much different than the skillset of a recruiter today.

with AI and knowing how to use all these tools. So you can make the argument like, yes, we let off a lot of recruiters, but at some point do we hire recruiters back, but they have a different skillset or do we retrain the ones that we have to know this sort of technology technological future? I think that's an interesting perspective. We don't lose recruiters. We don't lose tech people, but they have a different skillset. or there are more companies that are employing more people, et cetera. so we'll see where that goes.

Joel Cheesman (27:35.15)

And we lost JT at 27 minutes.

Joel Cheesman (27:45.49)

Hi. Okay. All good. All good. All good.

JT ODonnell (27:46.391)

And I'm back. Hey, you just went blank on me. I'm back. Let's talk about recruiting because I am with you 100 % the AI tools that are coming across my desk right now that are literally making it possible for a hiring manager to do the work of the recruiter and potentially more accurately gets fascinating to me. A great example, McCoy IQ, full disclosure on the board.

Joel Cheesman (28:12.974)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (28:15.117)

they just launched and it allows a recruiter or hiring manager to post a challenge. They can use an AI avatar, explain what the challenge is. And then candidates can record a video response of how they'd handle that challenge between one and five minutes. Candidate has as many retakes as they want. Candidate owns the data. Right. So instead of a resume, you can literally hear from people how they would handle this problem. And they all come in, sorted into an ATS. You can sort through, listen.

heavily vetted around the legalities, making sure it sits squarely with the candidate. When McCoy IQ goes out and announces the people that commented most were the candidates saying, finally, I'm sick of tweaking my resume for every job I applied to. I'm sick of being ignored. You're telling me can just record and explain to you how I do it. And then you'll contact me if it's a fit. So we're already moving into a phase where we're removing that recruiter sourcer, that recruiter phone screen.

Joel Cheesman (28:59.48)

Yeah.

JT ODonnell (29:12.031)

straight to the hiring manager, cutting that maybe pile in half to a third. This is the kind of AI innovation, but what it doesn't do is take the judgment out. This is what I like. We have to hold on to the judgment, the human aspect of that. You can't wipe that. AI is never going to replace that. And that's where I feel the smart recruiters are going to lean in and say, I'm going to do the judgment part, the harder stuff, but I'm going to use this nice little tech stack to get me there.

Joel Cheesman (29:27.959)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (29:37.039)

Yeah. You're familiar with Bumble, the dating app. I've, I've, I've been fascinated with dating on the internet since it was a thing, partly because it was one of the few things early on that made money on the internet. the, dating sites back in the day, they were making money while everyone else was burning cash. And I feel like there's a lot of parallels between like dating apps and hiring. You're putting people together, right? And,

JT ODonnell (29:39.971)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (29:50.85)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (29:55.884)

Hmm?

Joel Cheesman (30:05.996)

The CEO of Bumble recently had an interview and some of the things that they're building on the app that she talks about are you'll have an agent, like a dating concierge, I think is what they call it. And your agent or your whatever co-pilot can sort of date virtually and it knows your personality and it knows the person, other person's personality and it can sort of pregame what a relationship might look like. And then before you actually go and

like see face to face. So your agent can basically date hundreds of women in my case, or your case, men and have a relationship agentically and then tell you, hey, our agents get along really well. We think that you should meet in person. That's fascinating, but it also translates into potential hiring, right? What, what could a world exist where I have an agent that

JT ODonnell (30:56.652)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (31:01.934)

knows me and how I work and what I've done and et cetera. And then a company that has an agent says, okay, why don't you come to work virtually for a while? We'll see if it's a fit. And if it is, then we'll actually face to face, we'll talk and see if you're a fit for the company. I could totally see that in the future. And the skill set of a recruiter hiring manager, whatever that has to like maneuver that world is unique, but it is an interesting opportunity. And I could see a lot of recruiters and job seekers take advantage of that world because

Interviewing is uncomfortable. And if an agent can do it, let an agent do it.

JT ODonnell (31:33.099)

It is. Absolutely. Evidence-based hiring 2.0 is what you're discussing there. And I'm here for that as long as there's still that human judgment eventually comes into play. And that's where I think this is interesting. Also funny that you said dating apps. One of the co-founders of McCoy worked for Tinder. And so the mindset is there. The other one worked for Google. The two of them are coming together and looking at our problem differently than our own industry, saying there's just got to be a better way to do this. And so I find that.

Joel Cheesman (31:38.371)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (32:02.722)

Fascinating that we're finally there and that AI is powering the right parts of this So it'll be interesting to see and it will create jobs. I am in the camp We're we're you know, we're gonna swing towards a massive job creation in AI. So people should get ready for

Joel Cheesman (32:07.618)

Yeah. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (32:16.974)

So short-term pain with layoffs, but we both agree long-term like the future is so bright, we got to wear shades. I right? All right, let's get to recruit holdings. Speaking of the future so bright, you got to wear shades. Recruit holdings exceeded its fiscal year 25 earnings guidance, reporting a 3.9 % increase in revenue and a 17 % increase in EBITDA. The HR tech segment, which includes Indeed and Glassdoor, saw a 6.3 % revenue increase driven by monetization efforts.

That means higher prices and improved operational efficiency. The stock is up over 25 % since the news. JT, your take on recruit earnings.

JT ODonnell (32:56.906)

You know, we're at the point now where we better start hearing news like this. Because like you just said, is in year four of the restructuring, the AI. Look, we've been hearing this from so many companies. At some point in time, we better start seeing these things pay off. So I interpret that as, all right, you're showing us that things internally are making sense. I still always wonder though, know, numbers can be manipulated. I'm not saying they have, I know it's public document, I get it, but.

Joel Cheesman (33:09.006)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (33:22.029)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (33:25.675)

It just, is this a blip? did something. Is this an anomaly? Can we point to some things that are happening in the market or is this really they've turned the corner and we're going to see some solid performance? I think it's too early to tell, but I hope to hear more things like this that says, Hey, we're on the other side of this. Now we're seeing the growth because once they see a track record of that, then we're going to start to see that let's invest, let's go, let's try new things. Let's throw money. Let's hire, which is what we want. Right? This is what you and I are ultimately saying should happen.

So sooner we see that, the better. So I'm going to stay hopeful that that's good data and we're going to see.

Joel Cheesman (34:00.143)

All right, well, the street love this news. Everyone from Goldman Sachs to Jeffries put a buy rating or kept a buy rating on the company. Others over-weighted the stock. I've contended for a long time that LinkedIn and Indeed for most companies is about 80 % of your recruiting spend, your recruitment advertising spend. 20 % is split between.

You know, niche sites, programmatic stuff, throw stuff at the wall, whatever. And that's sort of called a monopoly. And what monopolies do is monopolies raise prices because they can like where else you're to go and look in a, a, in an uncertain environment, you're going to cut around that 20 % of your budget. That's sort of like, well, we kind of know it works, but we don't know what

what part of it and maybe half of it's worthwhile, but we don't know which half. Uh, but we do know that we're not going to get fired for cutting LinkedIn and indeed. like, we're not going to leave that the 20 % we're going to tell the powers that be, we're going to cut around that. We're going to decrease budgets, be more efficient, et cetera. Um, so when, when you see headlines on this show, like job case has a new CEO, uh, seek out CEO leaves companies go out of business.

TJ Maxx clearance sale. That's the 20 % that's getting filtered through the system. While that happens, indeed LinkedIn get to play price increase, get to pay. Okay, where are you going to go? You're to leave? I don't think so. We're going to increase about 10 % this year, 20, whatever it is. This is a monopoly essentially. There's no more monster.com to go to really. There's no more like competitor. And this is what we're seeing with the

the success of these companies, it's not way more jobs or way more whatever. It's like they have price control because they are essentially a monopoly in our space and people aren't going to leave. And even the upworks of the world, the fibers, they're not filling the void for these. So people aren't contract employee this stuff. They're still doing a lot of the traditional old school post jobs and source, you know, go to resume databases.

Joel Cheesman (36:17.548)

Like the more things change, sometimes JT, the more they stay the same. Good old fashioned monopolies get to raise prices and indeed is no stranger to that. No exception.

JT ODonnell (36:29.122)

A little 80-20 rule you're talking about there in effect, right?

Joel Cheesman (36:31.768)

Yep. Yep. And let it, we'll talk about LinkedIn after the break. mean, LinkedIn is getting into other shit. I don't want to say they're leaving recruitment. but I think they're realizing that, tick tock. And these guys are making a lot of money on creators and influencers and video and shit like that. And we want a piece of that and we'll keep the employment thing going, but indeed is still that sort of tried and true. Here's what we do. And you're not going to leave us.

JT ODonnell (36:38.71)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (37:00.258)

We'll be right back after this quick break. By the way, guys, if you're not plugged in, if you're not subscribed, what are you doing? Check us out. Subscribe on your platform of choice. Check us out on YouTube at youtube.com slash at cheese and leave us a review. We love to hear from you.

Joel Cheesman (37:23.022)

All right, JT, LinkedIn, your sweet spot. That's why we bring you on the LinkedIn insider. LinkedIn plans to host up to 4,000 gated creator led events annually to drive engagement and monetization. The platform is testing paid events. These are virtual events from what I can tell with selected creators focusing on educational insights for professionals. While LinkedIn has been cautious with creator monetization, sponsored events could provide a significant boost.

JT ODonnell (37:29.046)

Ha.

Joel Cheesman (37:52.185)

for creators and increase user engagement, which means more money for LinkedIn. JT, your thoughts on LinkedIn's events.

JT ODonnell (38:02.612)

Yeah, I mean, it's a great idea. You know, as somebody who's been with them for such a long time and watched them sort of ebb and flow with what they thought about creators monetizing on their platform, you know, I, as a business owner, that's been my main way of attracting clients. And so there have been times where they've been a fan of what I've been doing. There's been times where they weren't a fan. in the fan phase, which I'm excited about. And I think where I see them different than indeed is that LinkedIn understands that we are truly all a business of one.

Joel Cheesman (38:15.448)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (38:31.788)

that we're coming in a full circle moment, that this idea of long-term full-time with benefits is gone, and that we're going to have to empower people to take more ownership of their business of one. And so when I wrote the book Pro Voice, which is a lot last year around LinkedIn and the whole story of how to monetize on it, it's like how to turn what you know into what you earn. I think they're going to need to be at the forefront of this, whereas Indeed is not. And so these events are going to give people a way to get paid.

Joel Cheesman (38:31.864)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (39:00.512)

You have to offer people multiple income streams. It's how they can diversify and ensure that they have income security. And that's really what they're focused on. So I'm excited about it. As someone who's done an event recently on there, it was mind blowing to me. So I was on their largest career podcast in March and we broke the registration. It maxed out and the engineers had to hard wire to allow more people to register. And we were all just.

like, holy moly, what's going on? 46,000 people signing up for this thing. It wasn't paid, it was free. But to see it in action and to know what's possible is super exciting. And I can see a world where, you they're finally going to allow us to host, you know, these events, these paid events as a creator. And that's huge. You know, they're sitting on a goldmine of professionals who have something to say, and they're guiding people down that path with their new algorithm updates and everything they want people to do.

Joel Cheesman (39:47.82)

Yeah. Yeah.

JT ODonnell (39:57.356)

They're doing it right. It's slow, but it's calculated. And so I say bring it and any other other income opportunities they're willing to host.

Joel Cheesman (40:00.26)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (40:05.208)

You mentioned algorithm. I know you have some sort of insight on this. You've talked about it in a previous show. Give us sort of a quick, I know a lot, everyone on the show probably posts on LinkedIn. What's the secrets? What's, what's going on with the algorithm right now? What, what's going to get noticed and what isn't.

JT ODonnell (40:19.202)

Right, the algorithm isn't trying to make you go viral. The algorithm is trying to match you to the right set of eyeballs and it's heavily looking at what you're a subject matter expert on. So every time you post something that's off your brand, and when I say off brand, I mean your industry and your top two skill sets. If you don't know how to stay on brand with that, you're diluting the ability for it to connect you properly. And so they're really forcing people to that. Now, as people started to figure that out, what did they do? They started throwing in

next to nothing into chat GPT or whoever their favorite AI tool is and say, create me a post for LinkedIn. So now what's happening is there's just AI slop. LinkedIn recognized it, said, we're going to fix that. We're going to algorithmically suppress people. So now you really have to pay attention because you can't just give it an idea and say, run with it. You're going to have to hyper personalize it. And it's built to look and say, did you put your own personal experience in that? Can we look at your profile?

and say, yes, that person has that experience. The story they're telling is around that experience. Otherwise, these abstract thought leadership posts in your space are going to get suppressed. And that's mostly what these AI, you know, post generators are spitting out. You have to be hyper, hyper personalized, which I'm here for because that's what we've been teaching from the get go, right? Getting people to get super niche into who they are so that they can be surfaced. And so I'm thrilled they're doing it.

Joel Cheesman (41:32.28)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (41:39.019)

I think there are going to be a lot of people very soon that are to what happened to all my views? If they haven't already in the last six months since they started making these changes, they're just going have to get on board with being authentic and telling their personal story so that they can prove they're real.

Joel Cheesman (41:58.433)

And it's good news that I don't think LinkedIn believes that me as a cohost means I should work at Texas Roadhouse and seat people in there at their table. They do understand a little bit better now that cohost is not, seating people at the local Applebee's. that's good news. I, you talk about the money in this. I am, I was shocked. let me look at my notes here real quick. Cause I want to get this right. Paid virtual events led by creators represent a $5 billion industry this year.

JT ODonnell (42:06.818)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (42:27.758)

according to the documents that the business insider saw on the LinkedIn move. And that number could grow to 25 billion by 2030 according to those documents. So follow the money. There's a ton of money in these events and people find these creators and LinkedIn is going to, to take advantage of that. They're looking at 44,000 events.

a thousand creators. And you and I were talking about the long tail before the before the before the show. And tick tock there's a story about tick tock advertisers recently that when tick tock started to have advertising as an option, everyone was like, Okay, who gets the most views? Who's the biggest who gets the most like eyeballs? And what they're finding on tick tock and I'm sure this is the same with every social network is that

The money is in the tail. The money is in the niche person talking about underwater basket weaving or employment or like whatever it is. It's not the person that's talking like throwing bombs at everybody and getting a lot of views. It's in that niche. And LinkedIn, think more than most is very well positioned to say you're an expert in accounting, architecture.

JT ODonnell (43:27.479)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (43:33.228)

Yep.

JT ODonnell (43:40.803)

Correct.

Joel Cheesman (43:52.033)

whatever. And we have that audience. And by the way, we have companies that want to get in front of those people because they sign checks and they make decisions. And LinkedIn's going to profit on that. Certainly. I think you doing what you do and us doing what we do, there's going to be a whole lot of opportunity to leverage LinkedIn. We talked last week about, if you want to talk to me for an hour, it's going to cost you X. We'll connect on LinkedIn. They'll take a cut. Same thing here.

JT ODonnell (44:11.404)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (44:19.067)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (44:19.298)

Like we want to do a live event like on LinkedIn and the people on LinkedIn can pay us to come to the event to get access and whatever. Like it's obviously a huge opportunity. and we're going to see a lot more of this on LinkedIn. You're going to see a lot more creator spotlight, I think in the coming months and years.

JT ODonnell (44:31.146)

Thank you.

JT ODonnell (44:36.322)

This so validates Gartner came out last year and said, look, this is a $480 billion knowledge creator economy by 2027. It is, this is where we're headed, you know, and that's exciting to me. If you can take your knowledge and turn it into something, you look at this podcast and the way that you monetize now, there are people that always want access to you and Chad. So why can't that be a way to do that efficiently for you?

Joel Cheesman (44:45.848)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (44:55.16)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (45:02.87)

This is what we need. We've been waiting for it for a long time. So LinkedIn, I know you're out there listening. Thank you.

Joel Cheesman (45:08.076)

Yeah, it's, it's, you know, Chad and I, we've, always brainstorming on like how to make more money, but do less work. maybe I'm pushing that more than him, but, anyway, like we've always talked about Patreon. We've talked, I mean, I think only fans probably came like as a joke, but we'll have real content like, so this is sort of. Patreon, they talk about subscriptions and the story as well. Like imagine a world where.

JT ODonnell (45:16.61)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (45:36.387)

the Chad and cheese fans can pay a whatever subscription fee to get content, like maybe get the green room content, the stuff that we talked about before the show or like hidden or like unique content. So I subscribe, I pay them a bit of money on LinkedIn and that's our audience. Right. So that to us, like just talking about this, that feels more organic than like a Patreon where we have to move people to a different platform. This is where they already are.

JT ODonnell (46:03.33)

Okay, and let me just add on to that because I do a lot of content obviously and intentionally so that when people do buy private sessions with me, hire in memberships with me, and they get access to me the first time, the number one thing I get told is, I feel like I already know you. And that creates a very different dynamic when we connect. We're able to get right into it. They've already passed the surface stuff. Our conversations are always more intelligent. They're getting more out of them. So when you think about that content model and how many people would like access to you,

This is where the human experience, thanks to all of these things that we can do with AI and technology, starts to pay off, like you said, and how to get paid for your knowledge, not your time, like how to make more money. That's the exciting thing here. It's really using this and creating that experience. There are a lot of people that want to meet you, aren't going to go to an event, can't get there, but would love to talk to you about their idea for a business. Great. Pay me. Let's have a conversation.

Joel Cheesman (46:58.67)

So many people want to talk to me, JT.

JT ODonnell (47:04.83)

You

Joel Cheesman (47:05.006)

All right, let's go to our next topic. From Fortune, back in 2024, the Brookings Institute estimated that 86 % of customer service reps tasks had high automation potential. Well, not so fast. Nearly 2 million workers in the Philippines now work in call centers up every year since 2016 and through the current AI boom.

JT ODonnell (47:19.01)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (47:30.19)

Turns out as AI makes call center work cheaper and faster, companies are buying more of it, not less. Kind of weird, huh? JT, your take on the Fortune article and the automation of call centers. Not so much.

JT ODonnell (47:43.476)

Okay, so I recently heard a term, had to to Ken Evans, a colleague of mine, chief dissent officer, and that every organization needs a chief dissent officer. I feel like when the pandemic was happening and all these jobs were going remote and all these people were telling me, JT, I'm making six figures, go in remote. They're saying, I'll never go back into the office. I was the chief dissent officer. I remember writing an article about it, doing some videos on it saying, be careful.

Because eventually when these companies figure out these jobs can be done remotely, they can also send them someplace else where they're paying people one quarter of the price. I will go back and find you those videos, those articles. And I got backlash, you know, and now here it is. And so the fact that we couldn't see that and recognize that they're going to go where they can get the cheapest labor. labor is most expensive.

Joel Cheesman (48:26.542)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (48:35.562)

unreliable, so you're always going to be looking at a way to commoditize that. And we knew it was coming. AI will continue to improve what it can do from an automation standpoint. But yeah, I mean, we shouldn't be surprised by this. you know, unfortunately, a lot of people are going to suffer because of it.

Joel Cheesman (48:37.389)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (48:53.346)

Yeah. goes back to the 19th century. there was an English economist named William Stanley Jevons. I think I'm saying that correctly, who after the invention of the steam engine, made coal more efficient. The theory was, well, there'll be less coal because the steam engines are more efficient. Well, what happened is the cheapness of it created more steam engines, which said we need more coal than we did before, because now we have more stuff moving everything around through.

be a steam engine. So customer service historically sucks ass. Everyone is called a phone number and like press this number to go here and like we're not here or getting in an infinite loop of hell. So fewer people call customer service than I think they would normally because they know I'm entering the seventh layer of hell when I call customer service or I get into a chat bot situation. So

If I can get to a world where I can call customer service and it's a customer service rep that's augmented by AI, maybe they come in at certain points where it's human. it's like, if that can be friendly, warm, appealing, do you think more or less people are going to call customer service numbers? More people are going to call customer service because, wow, this is actually nice now. So.

AI is making customer service great again, sorry. So more and more people are going to use it. So guess what? We need more customer service people because more people are costing call customer service because customer service is good now because of AI. That's just one example. I think if you, if you take that into AI can speak any language, AI can adapt to any time. Like so

This can go into multiple parts of the world that never had an opportunity to do customer service before, do it for multiple languages, companies that never had the ability will be able to have customer. Like this start, the sweater starts unraveling and new opportunities start coming up, which is why I think this narrative of AI isn't going to kill all the jobs. They're going to create more jobs than there were before, helps support this story right here from Fortune.

JT ODonnell (51:14.561)

Yeah. You know what? One of the things that I really enjoy about the way you look at things is that you look at it more like a chess match. No, I mean this sincerely. And I think there's a lot of people out there and I think I love being on this podcast because that's what we're ultimately trying to do. Not look at this or what will happen here, but really kick the can down the road and think through a few more steps in the process instead of being so short-sighted. And I think that's what you're referring to here. I can't agree with you enough. This is why we're saying, hey, there's going to be a lot of opportunity coming.

Joel Cheesman (51:30.594)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (51:43.544)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (51:43.552)

Because as it's all, it's just part of the process of getting us back to that place where the ideas boom and we see the vision and off we go. And we're seeing the signs of that. We're feeling it, you know, and that, that excites me. yeah, but in this time, there's a short term, massive pain. These people that were making six figures doing customer service jobs from home here in America, not anymore.

Joel Cheesman (51:53.902)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (52:04.076)

Yeah. So short story or small short story. So, my local community has a new event center. play amateur hockey, amateur football. It's like a really cheap family friendly thing to do on a Saturday night. And they have those concessions. It's basically like a couple of big refrigerators. You take what you want, you put it on a table, which is the register, I guess.

And there's, there's no one scanning the, the technology can look at everything that's on the table. I got a couple beers. got a couple dogs. got a thing of popcorn and it knows what I'm buying and it will like, do, do, do. And he'll tell me what I'm buying and how much it is. I credit card digitally pay. And then I leave. There's one person overseeing everything. Now that the, the short sighted person would say, my God, all the people.

who have concession jobs and take your money, like they're now unemployed. Whereas I would say like, okay, but I'm buying a lot more beer and food than I did before when I knew I had to stand in line at a concession stand. Those are cooks cooking more hot dogs. Those are beer companies selling more beer and they need to do that these days. So there's more people on the backend that are canning beer, brewing beer, et cetera. So.

It all kind of works out and creates new opportunities. You just got to be adaptive. You got to be Darwinistic about this and survive that way. Now from an employment standpoint, think as more, I think some companies are to come out and have on their career site, you will interview with human beings. It's a brand play. We're not like, this is a human business. We're selling to humans, whatever. Like I'm waiting for the company.

It'll probably be a luxury brand that says, know what? We're not going to send you to an automated bot. Like you're going to talk to a human being and that'll be a brand play. Um, so I, I think this will play out, uh, and more people will interview with that company or more people want to work at that company because it's human beings on it. Like all this stuff is going to, is going to be messy, but I do think it, it will hopefully all work out in the end. Sorry. I'm the anti grumpy old man today. This is not, this is not like me.

Joel Cheesman (54:28.43)

All right, let's take a quick break and we'll talk about the automation of podcasts, which should be scary. We'll find out if it is.

Joel Cheesman (54:39.534)

All right, JT, Amazon has launched Alexa podcasts, a new Alexa plus feature that lets you generate full AI hosted podcast episodes on any topic in minutes. Just tell Alexa what you want to learn news, travel, prep, hobbies, career topics, history, et cetera. And it pulls from over 200 reputable sources like AP Reuters, Washington Post, et cetera. Gives you a preview, lets you customize length and style, then creates a ready to listen podcast.

Here's an audio clip of said podcasts. Check it out.

Joel Cheesman (55:50.702)

All right, JT, what are your thoughts on automated on-demand podcasts?

JT ODonnell (55:51.056)

Hehehehehe

JT ODonnell (55:55.81)

Well, that's a really interesting clip because it sounds like you took a good one that had that kind of flow that sounds very, you know, natural engagement. I think I would want to listen to a lot of others to see how realistic they sound. I personally feel that I'm getting better and better at picking up on AI generated things just because they're not, you know, that fluid yet. And so, but at the same time, we know that's going to get better and better. If it's a quality podcast and it's interesting and it holds my attention,

Joel Cheesman (56:17.261)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (56:25.42)

I'm probably going to be fine.

JT ODonnell (56:34.258)

hope is that we see more of is, can two people have a conversation and really turn that into a more interesting AI podcast? I think for a long time, people have failed at podcasts because they had to do all the production, figure out all the things that worked. I'm hoping this does something for people who say, I don't have a production team. I don't have years building a podcast, but I know the two of us together are an amazing dynamic and so help us build something great. If that's what this is about, I'm here for it. And again, if it's

really quality and interesting. probably wouldn't be upset if it was fully AI generated, but you know, I would be picky. What do you think? Are you scared? You worried?

Joel Cheesman (57:10.328)

Yeah. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (57:14.776)

So my knee jerk reaction is like, shit, if anyone could just on demand, out what, like tell me about the LinkedIn layoffs and there's a podcast about that and it's thoughtful and engaging, like that is ultimately scary. I do think that people, the value of podcast is that you get to know

JT ODonnell (57:21.058)

You just made me choke.

Joel Cheesman (57:43.875)

the people on the other end of the microphone and you get to know their sort of their vibe, their energy, their take on like when you said chess match, right? Like I appreciate that, but yeah, like, so if it's a take from me and you come off like, it's like a chess match, like my AI should be do something similar, which I don't think I can. But that said, if there's a world in the future where the podcast that I listened to

If, if those people, like, let's take a pivot well-known podcast or dire CEO, or like any, any kind of show that you, that you love and you love the host and you kind of have a real sense for like, what it's going to be like putting this person in my ear. If AI can replicate that and I can say, you know what? this new thing came out and like, Hey, Alexa, give me a five minute podcast on in the voice of Scott Galloway.

About what he thinks about Trump going to China or whatever, and it can create a five minute Scott Galloway podcast on what based on what his LLM is on what he might say about this thing. That's kind of interesting. And if I'm Scott Galloway, can I license my voice to then make money on that podcast or that piece of content? Because Chad and I are human beings. You're a human being. Like there's only so much bandwidth.

There are only so many topics in an hour that we can cover. I'm sure people would love to know, Hey, what would, what do Chad and cheese think about such and such startup in Poland that just raised 10 million. If AI can create a show with Chad and cheese and it's our voice and it's based on what our opinions have been in the past have said certain kind of startup. Like, we can make money off that. We basically scale our voice to infinity. And it's also then like, okay. And any language possible.

JT ODonnell (59:13.634)

Thank you.

Joel Cheesman (59:41.216)

in any, like any time of the day, any timeframe, like that becomes to me a really appealing opportunity to take our voice and then make it into on-demand podcasts. And we get a cut just like an artist with a song of every, of every show that people listen to in our voice.

JT ODonnell (59:57.474)

You know what I love about this is that in order to get there, people have to trust a voice, which means somebody has to get out there and really prove their knowledge and how they think. Really, you are a brand, like you said. You're not a brand in five posts. A brand takes years to build consistency for people to really know you. That is exciting to somebody like me and you who can scale because of the years.

Literally years we have put into being willing to put ourselves out there, whereas most people haven't. And that I'm happy because it hasn't been easy. You and I both know this is not an easy thing to do, to go out and constantly put out your points of view and run the risk of backlash and people coming at you. So the idea that this could be a thing is super exciting. Secondly, I know that you are very excited about going on vacation because this is by far the most optimistic.

Joel Cheesman (01:00:26.627)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (01:00:54.548)

episode of the podcast that I've ever seen you on with related, I mean, go back six months and we were talking about this kind of opportunity. so to see you see it says, okay, now we're really getting the naysayers to understand the value to them and how it can be done correctly and give you a choice. Like you said, to be able to give people an opportunity to have micro podcasting of Chad and cheese on a specific topic. That is amazing.

Joel Cheesman (01:01:21.326)

So I'll take a step further since we're getting, we're getting all chess matchy in this. So Amazon and LinkedIn just partnered for advertising. Basically the deal is like, if I advertise on Amazon, can take data or like it could target people on LinkedIn. I won't get into the, the, the guts and bolts or the nuts and bolts of that. But like, what if a world exists where LinkedIn has voices like we talked about thought leaders and then thought leaders on LinkedIn.

plug into advertising on streaming services and companies can pick thought leaders to talk about products and services as they're trying to sell. And the voice gets a cut because the company is licensing or, or, you know, using their voice. Like this could go in some really wild places, but it all comes back to like empowering the individual monetizing the individual and the, and the voices and, and, thought leadership that they're exuding into the world, much like the thought leadership, JT.

JT ODonnell (01:02:15.298)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (01:02:18.69)

that I exude with dad jokes. Just wait till those get AI'd and you can have those on demand. All right, here we go. Why do penguins stay away from Great Britain? Why do penguins stay away from Great Britain?

JT ODonnell (01:02:19.039)

Noooo

you

no. Okay.

Joel Cheesman (01:02:35.822)

They're afraid of whales.

Joel Cheesman (01:02:42.703)

Speaking of Wrexham, I tie that in beautifully. JT, we out!

JT ODonnell (01:02:45.495)

You really did. We out.