Inside DEI Backlash

Fear and Loathing in DEIThis week on The Chad & Cheese Podcast, we go full DEI—fear, backlash, boomers, clowns, and Costco. Buckle up.

• TEDx speaker and DEI whisperer Dr. Poornima Luthra joins the chaos to explain why equity makes some people clutch their pearls… or their privilege.

• Poornima breaks down the five flavors of corporate DEI fear and why even woke allies are sweating through their Patagonia vests.

• We unpack how unqualified dudes named Bill keep running the show and why that’s not “best in class.”

• Political DEI backsliding? Check. Costco as the unlikely hero? Double check. Poornima pitches a survival guide for allies who don’t want to be labeled the “DEI police.”

• And yes, her new book Can I Say That? is basically a DEI crash course for folks who fear getting canceled but still want to get it right.

  
  

🎧 Listen now. Learn something. Or at least pretend to at your next staff meeting.

PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION

Joel (00:31.488)

Yeah, this is the Chad and cheese podcast. I'm your co-host Joel Cheeseman. Joined as always, Chad Sowash is in the shotgun seat as we welcome Dr. Poornima Luthra. She's a TEDx speaker and leading academic on the DEI space. And she's an associate professor at the Copenhagen Business School. and she's also an author. Dr. Luthrah, welcome to HR's most dangerous podcast.

Chad (00:39.53)

What's up?

Poornima Luthra (00:59.032)

Thank you so much for having me. Looking forward to this conversation.

Joel (01:02.422)

Pleasure is all ours. A lot of our listeners and viewers do not know who you are. So give us the elevator pitch. What did I miss in the intro? What should I have expanded upon? Let us know who Dr. Luther is.

Chad (01:13.418)

She's getting ready to go on vacation. That's the most important part.

Poornima Luthra (01:16.366)

Absolutely, absolutely I am. But for now, for the next 30 minutes, I'm here. Well, my name is Poornima. I'm an academic. I've been in academia for a long time, 18 years after finishing my PhD at the National University of Singapore. And I've been in the space of talent management, HR, researching and teaching in this area for this period of time. I'm the author of multiple books within the diversity, equity, inclusion and inclusive leadership space.

My fourth book comes out in a few weeks in May and it's titled Can I Say That? and really unpacks the resistance and backlash that we're seeing to DEI. So I spent the last two years really exploring this, studying this, trying to come to terms with why does this backlash actually exist? And that's probably something we're going to take a look at today. I live in Copenhagen in Denmark. I am going to be taking on a new role in Imperial College Business School in London.

going to be making that shift really soon to a senior faculty role over there. Very excited about taking that up.

Chad (02:13.11)

Nice.

Joel (02:14.176)

Congrats.

Chad (02:19.868)

Awesome. Awesome. So what brought you to the DEI inclusion kind of ranks? mean, because you could have there could have been many things that you could have done, but you did this. Why?

Poornima Luthra (02:31.214)

I think the two things, and the thing on a professional front, it really started with getting exposure to various theoretical perspectives around DI during my PhD program. And that sparked interest, of course, but I think there's a more fundamental personal reason here. I think if you ask my parents as a child, I always had a very heightened awareness around social inequity that I saw around me. I noticed it a lot more living in Asia, traveling around the world. I, of course, came from...

Chad (02:40.726)

Mm-hmm.

Poornima Luthra (02:57.934)

and had those opportunities, very privileged background to be able to do that. But I also in travel also noticed social inequity around me in different contexts and in my own environment and circumstances being a woman, woman of color. And there were number of different experiences through my life where this felt like it was the right pathway to go down to ensure that the world is fairer.

for other people. And of course that narrowed down into focusing on organizations once I did my PhD and then got into the research and teaching realm.

Chad (03:36.598)

Gotcha, gotcha. from across the pond, from across the pond, you're seeing what's happening here in the US. We had very solid DEI practices, EEOC, OFCCP, all the acronyms, right? All the enforcement, all the education. From across the pond, what do you see happening right now? Because we're here, we see stuff, but from across the pond, what are you seeing?

Joel (03:37.675)

So.

Poornima Luthra (03:39.918)

Mm-hmm.

Poornima Luthra (04:01.228)

Yeah, I I am tapped quite into it. Of course, you only feel the nuances and the details once you're in a particular context. But the reality is that what's happening in the US does affect the rest of the world. And as it's often said, when the US sneezes, the rest of us seem to catch a cold. But I'm hoping we're not catching too much of a cold right now. But what we're seeing is a backlash, perhaps the peak, if you'd like, of a backlash towards DEI.

Chad (04:03.862)

Mm.

Poornima Luthra (04:29.698)

the administration in the US government. And we're unfortunately seeing the ripple effects of that across the pond. know, many companies have been issued across Europe with a letter from the American embassies on removing DI training, the usage of the term diversity, equity and inclusion, or its acronyms, if they are engaging with

Joel (04:48.438)

Mm-hmm.

Poornima Luthra (04:57.442)

federal contracts. you know, there is a clear impact on this side of the world and there are real consequences to many of the clients and companies that I work with.

Joel (04:59.755)

Mm-hmm.

Joel (05:10.102)

A lot of your research talks about or highlights the opposition to DI as a rooted in fear, whether it's political fear, consumer fear, et cetera. Can you elaborate on how this fear manifests in corporate settings and its impact on decision-making by organizations?

Poornima Luthra (05:27.746)

Yeah. So resistance and backlash to DEI, if you'd like, has always been there. You can trace this back around the world, whether it's the civil rights movements in various parts of the world, movements for women's rights. And you go back to the 1930s, 40s, 50s, 60s, and we've always seen resistance to DEI. It just takes different forms. It shows up in different ways depending on the context, global context in which we're in. Yes, we are seeing in the last two years that

backlash amplifying and we're probably seeing the peak of it unravel itself right now. Now, if we try and look at where this comes from, it comes from seeing DI or people feeling that DI is a threat and a threat to what is the next question that would come up, a threat to my status, to my cultural values that I hold so dear to me, to the opportunities that I've had in the organization that I'm with that are suddenly challenged.

I don't enjoy the same privileges or advantages that I used to enjoy. So the carpet or the floor under me is being shaken and that creates a certain set of emotions. And so when we get into the emotional space and we try to understand, well, what does DEI actually evoke? It doesn't just evoke emotions in those who are part of the dominant group. who have enjoyed advantages or privilege, it actually evokes emotions in all of us, even those of us who are working in the space.

Chad (06:50.848)

Mm-hmm.

Poornima Luthra (06:55.51)

And it creates emotions that are around feeling overwhelmed, feeling anxious, feeling worried, feeling uncertain, feeling inadequate. And when you look at the research on emotions, these emotions come down to the core human emotion of fear. And when I was doing my research, one of the things that came up is we as human beings don't like talking about fear. In fact, we're fearful of talking about fear itself because we find the concept of fear something that we really struggle with.

But until we address that this actually, these emotions that we see play out in organizational environments and conversations that we're having and in actions, that they actually come from this core human emotion of fear. And then how do we let go of that fear? How do we understand that goal? But I want to emphasize that this fear is experienced on all sides. This is not just fear that's experienced with those who are from the dominant groups. This is experienced across the board. And so my research shows that there's

five main types of fear that we experience. It's the fear of change, things needing to be done differently, me needing to address the fact that the systems around me were catered for some groups and not others, depending on which side I'm on, it might benefit me, it might not. It might be fear of needing to do things differently in terms of how I've been hiring, needing to come to terms with the very idea that I am biased and the systems around me have bias embedded within them.

Chad (08:22.262)

Mm-hmm.

Poornima Luthra (08:22.35)

So that fear of change. And then it's the fear of getting it wrong, right? Saying and doing the wrong thing. And that I see plenty of it's, can I say that? Can I do that? Am I doing the right thing? It feels like we're all walking around eggshells right now. Even someone like myself, right? And it says, I walk into spaces these days. I know that 10 to 15 % off the audience is quite likely gonna have a very different worldview compared to me. And that number could be more depending on the company, depending on

Joel (08:36.16)

Yeah.

Chad (08:36.406)

huh.

Poornima Luthra (08:52.074)

where people are from. you know have to be cautious, careful, you almost worry or are concerned with the words that you're using so that you get people along the journey rather than creating that block. So there is a fear around what can I say, what can I do in the climate that we're in. I don't want to be cancelled, you know it's all of those different things. And then it's the fear of taking actions and the personal consequences to it and that is

Chad (08:53.686)

Mm-hmm.

Poornima Luthra (09:19.158)

leans a bit more towards those of us working in the space that we're always going to be labeled as the Vogue police and I put that in quotation marks or perhaps the DI police or there she comes or there he comes or there they come. They're going to be the ones addressing it. They're going to be asking us to do something differently. Those labels that are attached to those of us who are trying to do this work.

And then there's the discomfort, right? And I alluded to it earlier with the fear of change, but that also creates in us this discomfort coming to terms with the very fact that we are biased is challenging for many people. have an, am not biased bias, right? We'd like to think that everyone else is biased, but I'm not, I'm very rational. And so, you know, that discomfort, also the discomfort with having these difficult conversations. We live in a very polarized world and it's almost...

Joel (09:59.876)

Thank

Poornima Luthra (10:09.504)

a world where you either take a stand on A or you're taking a stand on B and we've created an environment that is a zero sum game with how we've communicated around diversity, equity and inclusion that has required people to take one of two stands. But there's a lot of nuance to this. There's multiple perspectives that coexist. It's not so straightforward and it's not so simple. But in that zero sum game in this polarized world, we have created that disconnect.

and almost like a big vacuum in between and having those conversations is very challenging. And the last one is taking action, the fear of taking action or not seeing the positive results if you'd like off the action. So you feel it feels right now like we're taking, we've taken two steps forward but we're taking 10 steps back right now. And sitting with that, especially for those who work in this space can be quite challenging because it is how do you...

Joel (10:58.378)

Mm-hmm.

Poornima Luthra (11:05.826)

keep the resilience going? How do you keep the strength going? Where do you find the motivation when the backlash is so severe? So those are the five fears that have come up through my research. And I think they cover a fair bit of how many of us are feeling right now.

Joel (11:21.162)

And don't forget number six, the fear of clowns. I just want to make sure everyone's clear on the sixth fear that everyone has.

Chad (11:24.534)

Hey, there's got to be equity in this. Okay. There's got to be equity in this. yeah, quick. I don't think so. They're all scary. So quick story. We were a bunch of individuals during a conference taking some time out and we're talking through DEI and we had one of our friends who's a DEI leader was talking and he had to go take a call.

Poornima Luthra (11:30.136)

That's it.

Joel (11:31.198)

All clowns are inclusive.

Chad (11:53.278)

And while he left, this older white woman said, look, I don't know that I would ever want to give away my advantage. I don't know that I, she was being truthful. She was saying the quiet part out loud. said, I don't know that I would ever want to give up that privilege. I guess my biggest question is, do we have to wait till the boomers die and until we actually get into, which I think is where a lot of the fear is happening in the U S where whites will be the one in the minority group.

And about 2035, 2040, do we have to get to that point to we actually start to embrace this? Because to be quite frank, this back and forth just seems like a political Kabuki theater to me, more than anything else, because we all know that diversity is better for business. Looking like your community is better for business. Selling to people that look like you, talk like you is better for business, right? So are we just going to have to wait till the boomers die?

Joel (12:34.326)

suicide.

Chad (12:50.934)

It's what it feels like.

Poornima Luthra (12:51.726)

I mean, I love that perspective. mean, it's just, you know, no one wants to think that we have to wait for a whole generation to perish before we make progress. I'd like to think that we can bring people along the journey. But you know, the way the world is right now, it's hard to stay optimistic. I'm a realistic optimist. I can't do this work and I cannot have done it for the period that I have without kind of having that optimism.

Joel (12:53.332)

I got dark.

Chad (12:56.374)

Hahaha

Chad (13:13.12)

Mm-hmm.

Poornima Luthra (13:20.11)

But at the same time, I also want to be realistic that do we have to... Look, an entire generation has an entire generation that's intersecting with gender and with race, a particular group has enjoyed those advantages. I wish we could bring people along the journey. And I would argue that the arguments that we have made around diversity, equity and inclusion have not necessarily got them through that journey.

of self-reflection. So I think we need to hold the mirror up for those of us who are doing this work. We need to find better ways of communicating around this. We need to ensure that people understand that this is about leveling the playing field. It's about fairness. And come down to the core. Yeah.

Chad (14:06.462)

These people don't want fairness though. That's the problem. They want their advantage, right? They want their advantage. So again, how can you get somebody to buy into equity if they understand that equity means I lose my advantage?

Poornima Luthra (14:24.162)

Yeah, and I think that's a zero sum way of looking at it. And that's what I mean by I think we've painted the picture incorrectly. Like we have painted that picture in the DI space that if we prioritize one group, we're prioritizing women, it's at the expense of men. If we're prioritizing marginalized racial identities, depending on where we are in the world and what that looks like, then we are, you know, deprioritizing the dominant groups. If we're prioritizing the LGBTQ plus community, it's at the expense of

Chad (14:28.34)

Mm-hmm.

Poornima Luthra (14:54.05)

cisgendered heterosexual individuals. And that's the game that we have played. And that's incorrect. And so that fundamental shift that we need to make away from the zero sum game, this excessive focus on numbers and targets without doing the real work of systemic and cultural change is why we are where we are today. So yes, this is a direct consequence.

in the zero-sum thinking that we have created in how we have communicated and the efforts that we've made around diversity, equity and inclusion. And so if you ask me, this is a pivot point, this is a shake-up, if you'd like, of how we do this work and a real need to go down to the basics of what does diversity, equity and inclusion stand for.

How do we make it happen? And that's about systemic and cultural change, really addressing the bias that's embedded in our processes, in the ways in which we're doing things and how we're interacting with each other. But the reality is that this takes time. This takes effort. This takes commitment from organizations. And the quick fix is always going to be the quotas and the targets. And if we continue down that pathway of quotas, targets, and numbers, and obsession with numbers, we will continue the zero-sum game.

Chad (15:57.43)

Mm-hmm.

Joel (15:59.062)

Thank

Joel (16:05.75)

Hmm.

Poornima Luthra (16:10.072)

So I think organizations really need to wake up and ask themselves that if we want an organization in the future that does hire on the basis of competencies and strengths, that is reflective of the customer base that we are trying to serve, that is reflective of demographic groups, that is getting the best people into the organization, that is creative and innovative, then we've got to address those systemic biases that are at play and challenge the culture as well.

But this requires effort and I'm not necessarily sure I'm always convinced that leaders in organizations want to put in that effort and that commitment to seeing it. It's always quarterly results. It's how things are changing. It's the annual report and how the numbers are looking. So it requires a real shift on boards. It requires a shift in senior leadership around how we do this. What are we prioritizing? And really seeing this for the medium to the long term and not looking at those quarterly results. But that's the world that we live in, right?

Chad (16:49.755)

huh. Yep.

Poornima Luthra (17:08.704)

I'm not very optimistic. If we stay down this pathway, you're right, Chad. We're probably going to have to wait for a generation to leave this world, as morbid as that sounds. But yeah.

Joel (17:20.362)

Changing the world one funeral at a time. And I quote Axel Rose, Chad, you can have anything you want, but you better not take it from me. That's right. Chad mentioned, Chad mentioned how we all know that it's that DEI is good, in a corporate environment. I'm curious about the workplace impact of resistance, to DEI, particularly on employee morale, retention, productivity. talk a lot about this in your, in your writings and speeches talk about.

Chad (17:23.413)

Yeah.

Chad (17:27.52)

Take it from me. You're in the jungle, baby.

Joel (17:49.94)

the impact of resistance to the EI.

Poornima Luthra (17:53.464)

So first of all, it's not always a guarantee that diversity, equity and inclusion results in positive outcomes. Okay, it, know, or rather that diversity results in positive outcomes, right? And so when we look at the research out there, this is what is known as the diversity paradox. Putting people together who are different from different backgrounds, experiences, skills, whatever combination we'd like, doesn't always result, Joel, in those wonderful things of lower.

you know, job turnover, retention rates, job satisfaction. It doesn't. There is an ingredient there and that ingredient is the equity and inclusion piece that we often don't prioritize in our organization. So what we were talking about earlier with the systemic and cultural change, that is what we do need to be focusing on because you can't just put people who are different together and expect the magic to happen. That doesn't always happen. In fact, it can lead to greater miscommunication, misunderstandings.

Joel (18:25.098)

Mm-hmm. Okay.

Chad (18:35.627)

Mm-hmm.

Poornima Luthra (18:50.498)

People look at things in different ways. They might be that some groups might continue to be alienated, not feel like they're included or that they feel like they belong. And that creates increased job dissatisfaction and it actually adds to stress to employees. So it's not always a guarantee. And I think this is where companies make a mistake with prioritizing the D over the E and the I without realizing that the hard work of E and I needs to be done first.

before you get the D in so that you can get those wonderful outcomes at the end of it. So that's known as the diversity paradox. It's not always guaranteed. So if we assume that we've got the diversity, equity, and inclusion, and we've got this resistance at play, this resistance is going to, in its current state as it is right now, it is going to have a consequence if it stays the way it is on people's morale, on how people are feeling, especially if folks are

from marginalized groups, what does this mean for me? What does this mean for my opportunities in the organization? We're gonna see heightened levels of job dissatisfaction. We're going to see people feeling insecure with what's next for them. Are they going to be on the chopping block? When there's promotion opportunities, growth opportunities, am I even gonna be considered for it? Is the process actually gonna be a fair one? Because without some of these equity practices in place,

Joel (20:12.886)

Mm-hmm.

Poornima Luthra (20:13.518)

It is very easy for bias to slip in and dominate the kind of decisions that we're making. So it's difficult to predict, Joel, what we're going to see in the next few months and years. And I think many of us are just kind of holding on just to see how this plays out, especially globally. Because a lot of my work is, of course, much is outside the US. But I also see pockets of resistance to the resistance, especially in Europe.

Joel (20:30.954)

Mm-hmm.

Poornima Luthra (20:42.006)

And that's been nice. While there's also been the wave of companies here shifting some of the language around this, we've also seen leaders saying, is part of our value systems in this country or in this community or in Europe, that this is important to us and we'd like to continue that. So we're seeing that resistance to the resistance. So I feel it's early days right now to see how this is gonna have an impact on employees more broadly.

Chad (21:07.435)

huh.

Joel (21:09.302)

It's not just about the D Chad. It's not just about the D. Words of wisdom.

Chad (21:10.012)

So, but that's what I've been told my whole life. so let's talk a little bit about this meritocracy versus DEI. And I'm going give you a great example. Bill Cassidy has been in Congress for 17 years and the state he represents, Louisiana is one of the poorest, least educated and unhealthy states in the union. And yet the Louisiana Senator heads the U S Senate committee for

Let's wait for this health education, labor, and pension. So how does someone with such a horrible track record lead such an important. Committee is this meritocracy? Because what it feels like to me is the old boys club.

Poornima Luthra (21:57.688)

Yeah, so I mean, again, look, I'm sitting outside, so I won't comment on individuals and their background, but we're seeing plenty. You can go ahead and do that. But we see plenty of evidence of this where it's people who don't have the skills or the competencies to be actually able to do the job. Those that have the skills and the competencies have been let go.

Chad (22:03.503)

No, we will. That's fine.

Poornima Luthra (22:18.51)

from these roles. So we have to ask ourselves, is this really as you say merit and meritocracy? Now, if we look at the very definitions of merit and meritocracy, meritocracy is really about hiring people who have the right skills, backgrounds, strengths, competencies, and they're bringing value to the team. Now we have to ask ourselves, is that what we're seeing? Because if you look at the research around meritocracy, you will see that meritocracy is actually a myth. Because the very idea of who we think has merit

Chad (22:48.086)

Mm-hmm.

Poornima Luthra (22:48.16)

is very deeply biased in itself. So it's a construct that is biased. You know, there's research that shows us who do you think of when you think of someone who's brilliant? Who do you think of when we think of someone who's confident? Who are the images? What are the names that come up? So we are all socially conditioned into assuming that merit is in the hands of certain types of people. And we assume that those people, whether it's because of their gender, whether it's because of their background, socioeconomic status,

Chad (22:50.656)

Yes.

Poornima Luthra (23:17.422)

whether it's because of their race, that they somehow are more competent than someone else who doesn't have those characteristics. So the concept of merit and meritocracy as we see today is actually deeply flawed and deeply biased. So how do we actually create real genuine meritocratic systems that requires effort, that requires us to unpack the bias that exists.

in these decision-making processes around how we decide that someone like that should take up such a role? Are we asking the right questions? Are we genuinely looking at competencies? What are we putting down in our job descriptions as we think about who we want to hire? And are we actually blocking bias throughout that process so that we get to an outcome where the person that is hired for that role is truly competent and able to do the job?

Chad (23:45.206)

Mm-hmm.

Poornima Luthra (24:11.362)

But as we see it right now, especially in the last few weeks in the US context, we can see a number of different positions that have been filled by people who don't, who on paper at least, from what I can see from where I'm sitting, do not have those credentials or experience to be doing those jobs. And I guess you have to believe in some kind of...

Chad (24:24.832)

Mm-hmm.

Poornima Luthra (24:34.862)

whether you call it karma or something, that this will play out, right? That there will be consequences to it. My issue is that who's gonna get hurt in this process? Which groups are going to be heavily affected and hurt and harmed by this is what we need to ask. And that's not something I wanna see play out.

Chad (24:43.382)

huh. Yes.

Joel (24:55.894)

Karma, the cosmic justice system is gonna get everybody. So Dr. Luther, we're seeing a parade of companies abandon DEI publicly, but we're seeing some bright spots. Costco has been a shining star. You look at this from a global perspective. I'm wondering whether it's Costco or someone else that you've worked with.

Chad (24:59.318)

God, yeah. Which gave us the drunken frat boy as the sec def.

Chad (25:12.854)

Costco.

Poornima Luthra (25:14.21)

Mm-hmm.

Joel (25:23.114)

What can we learn from their approach to maintaining their DEI commitments in the face of political pressure, societal pressure, et cetera?

Poornima Luthra (25:32.29)

Yeah, I think we've seen a number of cases where companies have backtracked both both in the US. Of course the number of companies, but also in Europe as well, where their shifts to language where they're removing things from their annual reporting where they're cutting down teams. They're removing roles and then you see other companies that are taking a strong set stand. Many of my clients, you know across across Europe and Asia are taking a stand saying no, we're going to continue this. This is.

in line with our company's values. Now what we're seeing play out is what we're seeing with Costco, right? We're seeing customers shift who they're buying products from. I know personally within my own networks that like myself, many others are making conscious choices about the companies that we are supporting in our day-to-day purchases and things in companies that I'm also engaging with as well, but also challenging the companies who are

you know, backwards if you'd like or retracting on their commitments that going in there and challenging these things. But we are seeing that share prices do fall. IBM was the latest, I think, in the past few days and you've seen share prices fall. So, you know, there are consequences to this and the more companies that see that there's a consequence both from a shareholder value perspective and from a customer perspective, I think that's when we'll start seeing

companies really realize that this isn't just, you know, going with the wave of what the political climate is, but this is actually good for business and that customers do care and employees do care. I think we do need, I think we haven't seen enough of that happening yet, but we'll come to a stage where employees are also stepping up and vocalizing this. I think right now, again, there's a lot of fear. I think people are really afraid of their jobs and holding onto it.

Chad (27:26.454)

Mm-hmm.

Joel (27:26.454)

Mm-hmm.

Poornima Luthra (27:26.638)

So I don't think we're seeing enough of that internal backlash to the backlash, but that will come. It has to come. If it continues down this pathway, it will come.

Joel (27:37.91)

Dollar dollar bills y'all I'll let you out on this. Dr. You talk a lot about allyship. I don't know if you've you could tell but you're talking to two white guys. We always we always want to know how can we do better what can we do and allyship I think sort of really encapsulates your opinion on how we can how we can help the movement talk about allyship.

Poornima Luthra (27:44.312)

Mm-hmm.

Poornima Luthra (27:49.166)

you

Chad (27:50.133)

What?

Poornima Luthra (27:59.918)

So allyship is for everyone. Of course, those who are like you, white men, do need to be allies, but so do all of us. At the end of the day, there's always going to be someone who experiences bias and discrimination in society and workplaces in different ways compared to me. So I'm also very much like you, always looking for a pathway down how we can do better. So in my second book, The Artifact of Allyship, I really look at these seven behaviors.

of what we can all do. And for me, it starts with introspection. It starts with the self work. We do need to be curious. We need to be humble. We need to honestly introspect. So we need to have this deep curiosity to find out how people who are different from us, how do they experience the world around us? I think we don't do enough of that, that deep curiosity. We assume that people have the same experiences. We might intellectually know that they don't, but we don't necessarily truly believe it and we don't feel it in us.

So that deep curiosity, then it's honest introspection on our own biases, coming to terms with that discomfort that I am biased. And what does that mean? How does that show up? What does bias look like in my day-to-day interactions with people in terms of the decisions that I'm making or what I'm saying and doing, or just the people around me, who am I engaging with on a day-to-day basis? And do they have a very similar worldview as myself? How much am I challenging my own echo chamber?

that I live in, right, that honest introspection. And then it's humble acknowledgement of my own privilege, but also to reframe privilege. think that's one of the things I write in my second book is the word privilege is something that's got such a negative rap to it. And it's just something that we, for those of us who hold privilege in various different forms, one is gender, of course, and it's race, but it's also so many other things. It's the accent with which I speak with, the passport that I hold, the education that I've had, the doctor in front of my name.

Chad (29:28.843)

Yeah.

Poornima Luthra (29:55.064)

that gives me privilege and sitting with that very fact that what am I doing with this privilege? How am I using it to lift others? So reframing how we look at privilege, not as something to be ashamed of or guilty of, but to really use it as a leverage for what I can do differently in my own spheres of influence.

And that's the introspection part, that's self work. And then in the book, I go on to then talking about how do we engage empathetically? How do we have more authentic conversations that move beyond this polarized way of looking at things? Can we create space for multiple realities to coexist? Because right now we're living on two sides of a valley. How do we come together to have those conversations that we should be having to understand from different perspectives? We may not agree.

Chad (30:25.888)

Mm-hmm.

Poornima Luthra (30:40.984)

But at least we need to have those conversations so that we can understand where someone else is coming from. And then having vulnerable interactions. To move the needle further and faster, we have to show vulnerability that I'm willing to admit when I've been biased, when I've made a decision that did favor someone without having the right rationale for it. Can we have those vulnerable interactions? And then quite honestly, the last one is courageous responsibilities.

We all got to step up within our own spheres of influence to change things, shift the language that we're using around us, the low hanging fruit. There's lots of things that we need to do systemically and culturally as well. So if we are in leadership positions, how do we make sure those things happen? So those are things I talk about. So it really starts with us and then of course expands out outwards.

Chad (31:29.11)

So last but not least, the newest book. Can I say that? Right? want you to do a little promotion, but for me, I was internalizing as I was actually reading this and it sounds like you've created a dumb white guy guy to understanding the non white guy stuff. Right? It's like, like you said, we understand what we do, what we know our personal experiences. And this is, you know, non us stuff. And these are things that are incredibly important. So it sounds, it feels, and you, you tell me.

Poornima Luthra (31:32.046)

Mm.

Chad (31:57.92)

And then also, where can we get the book? It feels like a guide for a guy like me to not be too worried, but to actually dig in and try to understand the others around me. Give us a little bit more about that.

Poornima Luthra (32:10.316)

Yeah, so the book is a guide to how you can do and engage with diversity, equity and inclusion by letting go of your fears, right? And I'm saying your fears, I'm also talking about my own fears as well, even those who work within the space. So it's really a book for everybody. have the intended audiences by no means only white men. I'd love white men to read the book, but it's certainly for all of us across the two valleys.

so that we can let go of this fear, have those conversations that we need to be having, but also to take actions to bridge the gaps that exist. And I do believe that fear is at the heart of it. And if we can let go of that fear, I do think we can make progress. So yeah, I'd like to think that the book is for everyone, but of course, and it is within a workplace context. So I do have my delimiters around it. And I'd like to see that it is something that resonates.

Joel (33:03.562)

Mm-hmm.

Poornima Luthra (33:08.514)

with people across the aisle, that it isn't just for the believers of DI, that it's also for the non-believers who currently are challenging this or feeling that this isn't about them or that they are in some ways feeling that DI has gone wrong. I'm really hoping that this book helps us all let go of the fears that we hold. And book comes out in May. I think it's a little later in the US as per my publishers. So it should be out in June or July in the US.

and will be available on all regular channels, Amazon and the like.

Joel (33:40.976)

Love it. Love it. That is Dr. Purnima Luthra. Doctor, for those that want to connect with you, buy the book, etc. Where do you send them?

Poornima Luthra (33:50.606)

A LinkedIn. I'm really not very good at other social media channels. So LinkedIn is best. I post Monday to Friday with content as well. So if you want to follow, if you want to just be challenged or inspired whichever way, or you want to share, engage with my content on LinkedIn.

Joel (34:10.368)

is a platform all of our listeners are familiar with. Enjoy your vacation. Thanks for launching it with us. Chad, that's another one in the can. We out.

Chad (34:13.142)

Yes, they are.

Poornima Luthra (34:16.344)

Thank you.

Chad (34:17.792)

Thanks. We out.