Where Did Equity Go?

Is DEI dead? Or just taking a disco nap while corporate America loses its damn mind?

In this episode of The Chad & Cheese Podcast, Joel and Chad welcome the unicorn of corporate consultants—Dr. Joel A. Davis Brown, Esq.—to separate fact from fearmongering in the DEI world. Spoiler alert: DEI isn’t dead, it’s just rebranding while dodging culture war shrapnel.

🔥 Highlights include:

• DEI isn’t failing—it’s just catching heat from folks who confuse fairness with personal attack.

• JP Morgan ditches “DEI” for “DOI” like it’s a witness protection program.

• Why banning politics at work is like banning air at the office—good luck with that.

• Equity explained via fire drills. Yes, really.

• McKinsey drops truth bombs: diverse teams = more money. Shocked? Neither are we.

• Chad goes full white-dude apocalypse about 2045—Dr. Brown calls it what it is: "replacement theory lite."

• From “pride-washing” to performative allyship, we’re calling BS on corporate cosplay.

  
  

Bottom line: If your DEI program is just rainbow logos in June and a dusty PowerPoint from 2021, you’re doing it wrong.

🔊 Tune in before someone rebrands “diversity” as “strategic synergy optimization” and calls it a day.

PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION

Joel (00:31.95)

This is the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your cohost Joel Cheesman joined as always. Chad. So wash is in the house as we welcome Dr. Joel A Davis Brown, a corporate diversity and inclusion expert. And with a name like Joel, you know, he's got to be good. Welcome to HR is most dangerous podcast, Dr.

Chad (00:41.836)

Doc!

Joel (he/him_) (00:54.124)

Thank you, it's a pleasure to be here with you. It's good to meet you both.

Joel (00:57.55)

excited to.

Chad (00:57.834)

Wait, real quick, we didn't ask in the green room. At least I wasn't around. Maybe I was getting water. Have you listened to the pod before, Doc?

Joel (he/him_) (01:05.972)

No, mean outside of just prepping for this, no.

Joel (01:09.272)

fresh meat. Fresh meat. Well, before we get into the q &a, I want our audience to know who you are. So give us your elevator pitch on you what you enjoy sort of your professional background as well.

Chad (01:10.784)

Yes! Yes! Love it! I love it!

Joel (he/him_) (01:28.216)

True War, what do I enjoy? I enjoy working with organizations that are human centered that want to help their people grow and build a culture that supports everyone. So that's what I do. I'm an organizational development consultant. Sometimes people say, what exactly is that helping organizations perform better and to create cultures that allow people to leverage their best and highest skill set. So that's what I do.

Joel (01:50.35)

That's good. That's a tight pitch. That's a tight pitch. I like that. So we're, so we're focusing on, on, on, on DEI and I I'm really curious as someone who lives in this space on a regular basis, what is your take on the current state of DEI?

Chad (01:52.614)

That is a very tight... It's like he's done that before.

Joel (he/him_) (01:52.854)

Thank you.

Joel (he/him_) (01:56.428)

That's a few times. Right.

Joel (he/him_) (02:08.984)

It's predictable. So if you had talked to me, let's say probably five or six years ago and said, where are things going? I could have told you that where we are right now is where we would be, which is through a down cycle. This industry and this field has been through this before where there's some success, there's some social.

Chad (02:23.8)

Mm-hmm.

Joel (he/him_) (02:34.072)

turbulence that causes people to be more focused on this and then all of a sudden there's backlash. And so I think a lot of the pronouncements that DEI is dead are premature, inaccurate, and self-serving. But we know that there's still work to be done. I think there's opportunity for us to reframe and to help people to understand what it really is about, which not surprisingly has not been helped by some of the

the statements and some of the propaganda that we've heard in social media and just in this social space as it were.

Chad (03:08.312)

So what is it about then? I mean, if they're taking the narrative and they're owning the narrative, how do you take the narrative back? What is it about?

Joel (he/him_) (03:16.376)

It's about helping people to work together and to work together effectively. So if I were, for example, to say to you, hey, you're gonna be working with, let's say the Chad and cheese, your counterparts in France or in South Korea or in South Africa, you would say, well, how do we do that? And so I would say, this is where we had to be aware of, know, different cultural perspectives on how to get people to work together. That's the diversity part. Equity is dealing with historical.

inequities where people are not always given the same opportunities and they want to make sure that people have equal or equitable opportunity to get jobs, to work, to advance within the professional sphere or their workplace. then, know, inclusion, who doesn't want to feel included? So you want people to feel like they're part of a team, that their viewpoints, their contributions, their

Chad (03:58.616)

Mm-hmm.

Joel (he/him_) (04:07.338)

skill sets are going to be welcomed. And so that's really what it comes down to. So it's not this demon that I think a lot of people have thought about. Any industry, of course, always requires a little bit of work. No industry is perfect. And so whether you're talking about attorney, lawyering, or being an accountant, or working in the medical profession, there's always room to be better. And we're no different, but that doesn't mean that DEI needs to be thrown out.

Chad (04:29.038)

Mm-hmm.

Joel (he/him_) (04:34.232)

All together we're eliminated as some people have suggested

Chad (04:37.72)

Well, it seems like diversity has really been under the microscope and we've forgotten about equity altogether because it's obviously a part of the narrative that nobody wants to talk about, at least in this administration. And it's the one that for me is one of the most important. Obviously they're all important. But when we have individuals who are doing the exact same job as others and just because they're female or just because they're a person of color, they're actually making less.

from an equity standpoint, from the standpoint of earning wages and going home and being able to put food on the table and so on and so forth. I mean, that just seems fair. I mean, fairness, right? Maybe equity is the wrong word. Maybe we should start using more around fairness. Why has that been lost in this entire narrative? Because we're not talking about it.

Joel (he/him_) (05:30.84)

Right. I think because a lot of companies have taken a very lazy approach to how they address equity. And I think a lot of times these words have been confused. So for example, you have a number of people thinking that DEI is affirmative action and people don't know what affirmative action really is about. So for your listeners, let me just break down, I'm giving a short story of how this shows up. So I went to the University of Minnesota, Big Ten. And I remember we would have fire drills just to make sure that if there was a fire.

Chad (05:36.238)

Mm-hmm.

Joel (he/him_) (05:58.456)

that everybody got out safely. So when the alarm would ring, obviously for those of us who could actually hear, that was the effective way to communicate that there was a fire drill taking place. But for those who couldn't hear, they had different methods in place. So they would flash the lights as a way of letting people know.

Chad (06:00.323)

Mm-hmm.

Joel (he/him_) (06:17.814)

hey, you need to get out the building. But for those who were visually impaired, they also had a different system. And so again, it's making sure that everybody has equal access to whatever measures are necessary for them to have a healthy life, to be able to pursue freedom and the pursuit of happiness, whatever that looks like. So that's really what equity comes down to. And I think what it really illustrates is how we have to

showcase the different realities within the United States and just within the globe. Not everybody is going to have similar opportunities. And so that may mean, for example, companies making sure that they go to different universities or that they do a little bit extra not to create quote unquote special rights, but to make sure that other people are apprised of opportunities or are given opportunities that may not otherwise exist. So when I practice law, for example, I know that

Chad (06:48.334)

Mm-hmm.

Joel (he/him_) (07:10.218)

a number of the wisdom that was passed on, or a number of the opportunities that were shared with, let's say some of the junior associates, many of whom, most of whom were male, were done as sporting events. So people would go play golf and that's where someone would say, here's what I'm going to, here's some advice about your performance, here's some things I think you should do in order to be more successful as an attorney, as a junior associate, here are things that you can do to make sure that...

Chad (07:26.036)

yeah.

Joel (he/him_) (07:34.122)

our firm actually hires you and that information was passed along in these kind of discrete conversations that other people don't have access to. So then how do you make sure that other people can have that same type of knowledge and wisdom?

shared with them. And so that's why you would have, for example, pipelines where, let's say, underrepresented groups such as women or, let's say, ethnic minorities might get that same type of treatment that they otherwise would not be able to get. So I think it's about going back to the basics and the fundamentals and helping to explain to people what these things actually mean, because we know in a news cycle where things are very quick and they're based on entertainment,

Chad (07:46.85)

Mm-hmm

Joel (he/him_) (08:10.038)

they don't really always allow for really cogent explanations. And a lot of times it's just gonna end up becoming propagandized in a way that again, it's not gonna be very helpful.

Joel (08:20.302)

You sound, you sound very healthy about this whole issue, which I'm going to have to, I'm going have to get the name of your, of your doctor. Uh, when you, when we're done with this, see what kind of meds you're on. Uh, cause we know he's not a drinker from,

Chad (08:28.014)

You're therapist? Yeah.

Joel (he/him_) (08:33.366)

No.

Joel (08:34.252)

My drug of choice. You talk about the, the pendulum. my sense is that it's less about it comes and goes and more about it rebrands. In other words, you change it to change the perception. And, Chad talked about the lack of equity or equity being deleted. And I think that's true. You see JP Morgan changing it to DOI, diversity, opportunity, and inclusion.

So my question to you is, do you think it really is a pendulum that says it goes away and then it comes back? are we still doing it, we're just rebranding it to stay out of the headlines, to stay out of the crosshairs of an administration? Do you really think it's going away or are we just rebranding it, putting a different label on it?

Joel (he/him_) (09:22.09)

And maybe saying that it goes away is probably not the most precise words that I use that I apologize. I would say those who are invested in it will stay invested in it and those who are doing it for superficial reasons will find a reason to say no. So, you know, there's been a lot of talk around companies and organizations that have decided that they don't want to pursue or continue with their DEI work. We also need to recognize too that we're living in kind of an unprecedented time where there is perhaps

I've never seen an administration be hostile to this effort, at least in my lifetime, and I've been around for a little bit, right? So I think a lot of it is around survival and a lot of organizations trying to make sure that they're not going to be targeted, so I get that. But we also historically have had organizations that, yes, when it's convenient, when they find it to be good for their bottom line, they'll champion this type of stuff because

Chad (09:57.016)

Mm hmm. yeah.

Joel (he/him_) (10:17.28)

it helps to increase our profit share. And so that's certainly not different. So that's what I mean by the pendulum swinging back and forth. We knew, for example, during Me Too and Black Lives Matter, are a number of people who did not, or organizations that didn't want to be seen as lagging behind or somehow undervaluing DEI because it just wasn't good for the profits they wanted to make and it wasn't good.

Chad (10:34.083)

Mm-hmm

Joel (10:38.018)

Mm-hmm.

Joel (he/him_) (10:39.018)

according to their consumers. So I do think some of it is rebranding. This work has been called a number of different things. And there's a number of different acronyms for those of us who have practiced and been practitioners of this work. So I think it's a combination of both. But I think more of it really is around who actually has a commitment and understanding that it's not a superficial thing. So a number of organizations may think, well, we'll have a program, for example, during Black History Month. And that's the extent of our

DEI work. Well, that's not really DEI work. And I think that's part of the challenge. A number of leaders and I've worked with and decided not to work with companies who I think want to give this short riff and just want to do the most politically expedient thing by saying, yeah, we'll do it for a month or two when really it should be integrated into your business function. It shouldn't really be a programmatic thing.

Chad (11:08.302)

Yeah.

Joel (he/him_) (11:30.198)

When people come to me and say they want to do programs, that tells me they're not really invested in doing this work. So part of it is realizing this work is long-term. This work has to be strategic. It has to be integrated. It's not just episodic or programmatic or something that you just do simply to be, to be, not to be placed on someone's watch list. It is part of a healthy strategy to say, we want to get the best out of all of our people. How do we do that? And I don't know any organization, any business, any company that doesn't want to extract the most.

Chad (11:47.63)

Mm-hmm.

Joel (he/him_) (11:58.582)

out of all of these people to make sure that they can accomplish the organizational mission. That's really what it comes down.

Joel (12:04.462)

I I can't just rainbow rainbow find my logo once a year. I can't just do that. I got to really

Chad (12:04.974)

.

Chad (12:09.42)

You can.

Joel (he/him_) (12:10.168)

No, that wouldn't be good. And we call that, for example, pride washing. If you're trying to appeal to the LGBTQ plus community or you'll see it in different contexts where someone just says, I'm to put a little sticker out there. I'm going to come up with a clever slogan. We'll go to, let's say, Juneteenth festival or we'll join some type of local or regional civic effort.

But that's it. And I think that's the reason why DEI, frankly, has gotten a bad name is because a lot of organizations are not doing good work. They are resistant to the work and they're not fully invested. And I think if more organizations try to do this at a high level and took the advice a number of solid experienced practitioners gave them, then I think we'd be in a better place. So for example, let me just address the pink elephant in the room. I've talked to a number of people over the years who will say,

Chad (13:00.75)

Yeah.

Joel (he/him_) (13:03.778)

Well, this doesn't apply to me. And some of them will be white males. And I said, well, why do you think diversity doesn't apply to you? Diversity refers to a system. Within a system, what is the heterogeneity? Who is different? Anybody who is there, who is part of a group, is part of a diverse system, unless everyone acts the same, comes from the same cultural background, which is rarely the case. So diversity necessarily includes anybody within the system to make sure that we all understand how can we

accentuate our strengths and mitigate weaknesses in order to do the best work possible. The only time where perhaps you may not see a focus on let's say men or let's say people who are white or people who are heterosexuals when it comes to the equity piece, but DEI is paired together for a reason because you have to have all three. You have to recognize who's different, what's there, what's present. How do we make sure everybody has equal access and how do we make sure that everybody can belong and feel included? And again,

be allowed to bring their skill sets and their talents to bear on the organization. So I think we do that education and I think we understand that. And there's plenty of data out there. I here's the thing. There's tons of data that indicates that DEI works from a leadership perspective, from a business perspective. If you're just about making money, we are in a capitalistic system. So if you're just about making money, DEI when practiced well, when done well, obviously works. So the question then becomes,

why are people resistant to this was because again, it's been misbranded, it's been mislabeled. And I think a lot of people who have political agendas want you to believe that there's something different than what it actually is.

Chad (14:41.006)

So you talked about not getting the investment and to me, and actually I've built veteran hiring programs for large force and 500 companies over the years. My wife has actually done the same thing for the individuals with disabilities community. And for me, it has to do with really interested and not being performative. Most of these companies, most of these companies, they're putting CDOs in place who shouldn't be CDO in the first place. I mean, they don't have the business chops to be

able to do what they're doing, not to mention they don't give them the investment in support so that they can actually create programs within the organization to be able to do exactly what you're doing. You're talking about is being able to really support the business and

How are you supporting the business? By looking like the community, by being a part of the community, right? And we've lost that in this whole capitalistic society is the company is the company. It's not a part of the society anymore. That's bullshit. It's part of the society. It's part of the community. So therefore it should reflect what the community looks like. Am I way off base here? That's the question.

Joel (he/him_) (15:46.622)

No, not at all. No, and not only should it reflect the community, it should reflect the world. We live in a global economy now, which is highly independent. And so you, know, if I sell a widget or let's say I come out with my own version of a smartphone.

Chad (15:51.831)

Yeah.

Joel (he/him_) (16:01.354)

I wanted to reach as many people as it can, and I need to understand the needs and the sensibilities and the profile and the cultural background of the people who I want to attract to buy my phone or to buy my widget or whatever product or service I'm selling. So it just makes sense then to understand sensibilities. It makes sense to make sure that you have the best talent, and the best talent is gonna come from a variety of different disciplines, from a variety of different backgrounds. To your point about CDOs, for those who are listening to me and know what that means, Chief Diversity Officer.

Oftentimes what I see happen that frankly can be problematic, organizations will retain or create this position for a chief diversity officer. And then the CEO, the CEO will say, okay, you deal with this stuff because I can't, I'm too busy. And my thing is as a CEO, and I work primarily with people in the C-suite.

Chad (16:40.398)

Mm-hmm.

Joel (he/him_) (16:52.17)

It is your job to make sure that you are developing and attracting and harnessing the best talent. It is your job to make sure that you're reaching the customers all across the globe. It is your job to make sure that when people walk through your door, they're not leaving a week, a month, a year later, that you're really making sure that people feel comfortable and psychologically safe. And sometimes the error is the CDO is a person who has scapegoated with doing all that work. And people think,

Chad (17:18.382)

Mm-hmm.

Joel (he/him_) (17:18.644)

I don't have to think about this. I don't have to think about this from a marketing standpoint, from leadership standpoint, from a community partnership standpoint. That's the CDO's job, which means that the CDO gets set up with doing something, but then they're encountering resistance with every conversation they have, which is why the work doesn't go well. Which is then why another reason is the confirmation by the say, see, we see that DI is not working well. Did you really set yourself up for success? Did you really invest or did you really just hire one person who was understaffed?

Chad (17:42.102)

huh.

Joel (he/him_) (17:48.408)

and didn't have the resources to do what really should be an enterprise level initiative and strategic operation.

Joel (17:58.254)

talk about money for a second.

I mentioned that, it's profitable to be, to follow this strategy. What are, what are the numbers around that? And what would you say to the company, the companies that out, I don't want to say outlaw, but, frown upon talking about politics or talking about some of these issues at, at the office, because we're all about shareholders and profits, because I think that we need to, we need to build a bridge between this is a profit making strategy.

Joel (he/him_) (18:01.996)

Kitchen.

Joel (18:31.928)

But I'm quite sure that you can elaborate much better than I could on that. What are you saying in terms of the dollars and cents of doing this?

Joel (he/him_) (18:39.48)

Well, we haven't seen most of the data that we have around the profitability, the increased profitability of DEI goes back to 2020. So there's a little bit data. So I would love to see something from 2024. But if you look at studies from places like McKinsey, et cetera, et cetera, the studies just show that particularly when you have organizations that

are led by diverse teams, whether you have female CEOs, whether you have boards that reflect the community that they live in, you're looking at profit margin increasing by a significant amount. And when I say significant amount, I'm looking at between, let's say, 10 to maybe 25%, 30%. And so that's a significant increase for the business. In terms of your question related to politics,

The way that we think about politics is going to be based on your value system. So I've had a number of people say to me, particularly after the last election, well, we're not here to really talk about politics. I said, well, people expressing and sharing their cultural background and how they're impacted does not necessarily them talking about politics or not necessarily getting into policy per se or talking about the horse trading that takes place within.

a legislature or within Congress are talking about how their communities, how their families, how their lives are being impacted. Is that political or is that more of a human discussion? And even if it is political, so what? I politics is affecting everything that we do. There's a congresswoman, former congresswoman out of Ohio, her name is Nina Turner, next door to you. And she always says, if you don't do politics, politics would do you. And so I think

Many organizations, of course, are very much attuned to politics and policies and who's in, let's say, the state legislature or in the White House and Congress because they're looking at what's going to impact their bottom line, who's going to support policies that help us to do better, whether it's through lobbying or whatnot. So I think, you know, when leaders make this whole idea that we don't want to discuss politics, I think it's rather disingenuous. But I think to the point,

Joel (he/him_) (20:43.256)

It usually comes down to who is disfavored within the system. So if it's, let's say, BIPOC communities or LGBTQ, then it's political. We don't want to talk about this. We just need to focus on cultural groups. And we're seeing some of this play out in states like Utah and whatnot, particularly as they try to turn back LGBTQ rights and any type of LGBTQ civil rights legislation. Anyone who's sharing just their lived experience and their cultural background,

Chad (21:06.232)

Mm-hmm.

Joel (he/him_) (21:12.074)

is really not talking about policy per se or politics. They're talking about their lived experience and that should help to inform what type of products and services we provide, what type of organizations we are, but more importantly, what type of community partners we are. That's part of, again,

thinking about thinking holistically in terms of what type of organizations do we want to be and making sure that we don't see ourselves as the point was made earlier, see ourselves as apart from the community organizations and companies are made possible because of the community and it behooves us to make sure that we're paying attention to the needs of the people that we're supposed to be serving, the people who make up our workforce and the people who live in the areas where we're situated and where we're based. And so I hope we can get past that. A lot of what's taking place right now, frankly, is political.

So when we hear DI is bad, DI is wrong and organizations are being targeted, all that's political. So again, it depends on who's in favor, who's in power and what rights and what privileges you're discussing. That's usually an indicator of when someone or what...

someone means when they say that something is political, usually just is a code word for saying, we don't want to touch this because we're either afraid of the blowback that we're going to get, or we're just not investing in it. And we just want to come up with a convenient excuse to not do something.

Chad (22:30.092)

When you take a look at business operations and instead of calling it DEI, whatever you want to call it, I mean, there are companies that I talk to on a weekly basis that are like, we are continuing X programs, right? What should we do? What should we call them? Should we just go ahead and dismantle? Like, no, it's a part of your business operations. You don't have to label it anything.

Joel (he/him_) (22:55.288)

Correct.

Chad (22:55.372)

It's called hiring, right? If you are going to a community college and there is a specific group that is female focused and you've been engaging them for years, don't stop that. Continue to do that, right? Continue to do the things that you know work for your business and expand on that. The thing is, you don't have to call it out as DEI. This is basic business operations for you and your organization. This is how we profit. This is how we become more productive and this is how we stay a part of the community. Now,

The question is, if that is the answer, why in the hell are we making this so complex?

Joel (he/him_) (23:34.336)

Well, I'm just going to be real. Why are we making it complex? Yeah, well, in some ways, don't think, I think it's, again, a political calculation. So there are some people, for reasons I don't understand, who look at these types of things from a zero-sum lens. So there's the idea that if you

Chad (23:40.258)

Yeah, because it is.

Joel (23:42.473)

Hahaha.

Joel (he/him_) (23:59.766)

black person, you get something or something is designed to help you to succeed. Therefore, I'm somehow going to be at a disadvantage or something. I'm losing something. you, let's say a female leader within an organization, you get something, there's a pipeline dedicated to help you to become the best version of yourself. Therefore, I as a male am losing something. And it's really, I would say immature thinking. And it really highlights what I think is a problem that we're having within the US right now, which is this whole idea of

others somehow being attended to and supported means that somehow I'm suffering or that I'm somehow going to be disadvantaged. When the water rises for one, it rises for all. When we're able to make sure that one person is succeeding, then it helps all of us. And part of what I get frustrated by is when I think about a lot of the barriers that exist within a society, just think about where we would be in 2025 if we didn't have to continually renegotiate and relitigate these issues.

If we didn't have to think about, well, okay, we're in 2025, we still got to deal with race, we got to deal with gender and sexual orientation and disability and class and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. We could be much further along. We could be in a place where we could be more advanced, we could solve a lot of the social issues, we'd probably be lot happier as a species. And that's the thing that's frustrating to me is there still is this tribalism where we think that, well, if someone is being supported, that somehow,

Chad (25:15.437)

Hmm.

Joel (he/him_) (25:25.388)

there's less and I think that goes to what's happening politically within the country. That's what goes to what's happening socially in the country and it shows a lack of leadership. That's what it really comes down to. So I love what you said about, you know, why do we need to call anything? Cause to me, any leader I work with, if they want to be transformational, I will say to them, you should be thinking about this anyway. You should have global awareness. You should have social awareness. You should be trying to make sure that every person you come across, every person's part of your enterprise is able to do their best job. If you're not.

then what kind of leader are you? If you're simply focusing on, I just want this particular segment of my community or organization to do well, you're a leader, but not the type of leader I would want to follow, and not the type of leader who's gonna have positive impact. And I think we're seeing a lot of that where...

Chad (26:00.417)

Mm-hmm.

Joel (he/him_) (26:10.2)

people see and hear some of this type of demagoguery and some of these rationales and they think it feels good. It's like whipped cream. You eat the whipped cream and you think it's gonna be something substantive, but at end of the day, it's gonna leave you feeling empty, probably more empty and on a sugar high than what you thought before because you're going by these slogans and the scapegoating that takes place. They let you think, oh, because I deny someone something.

that I probably already have an advantage of, or I probably already have access to, that somehow I'm going to be doing better. And it's an illusory idea, and it's a full-hearted concept. And that's really what I think we have to get to is all of us, a collective notion that when one of us can succeed, it helps all of us. And all of us are in this together. And again, whether we call it as one of my friends and colleagues have said, diversity, difference, and dialogue, or what do you say?

Difference distinction and belonging. I've heard that I'm not interested in frankly trying to come up with the latest or Word or phrase of what de I should be called Yeah, I'm not gonna do the wordsmithing to me I think it's important to show commitment and to let people know exactly where my values lie But to your point if you're doing this and you're doing this well, this should be embedded in your philosophy

Chad (27:07.758)

Yeah.

Chad (27:15.656)

campaign yeah

Joel (he/him_) (27:31.004)

There shouldn't be a separate DEI program or DEI focus. It should be embedded. And of course, it can be one of your organizational pillars, but it should be something that is well integrated into your strategy, your thinking, and also your actions on a daily basis.

Chad (27:37.368)

Mm-hmm.

Joel (27:43.404)

Did you see Chad perk up when you said whipped cream? I noticed that. That was good. was good. politics we've covered, I want to cover generational divides. You mentioned sort of, you know, the boss thinks this, we're all about money and shareholders. But my sense is you have a generation of younger workers who want to work for a company that has an opinion, that wants to work for a company that lets me voice my opinion.

Chad (27:43.49)

Put down the whipped cream, cheeseman. Put down the whipped cream. yeah.

you

Joel (he/him_) (28:10.68)

Sure.

Joel (28:11.244)

I think from a dollars and cents perspective, that's a retention tool. If you can retain talent because they enjoy being there and feel like they can express their opinion, that saves money because you're not recruiting and replacing those workers. I'm your thoughts on generational divides on this issue. Are you seeing that and how would you sort of encapsulate that?

Joel (he/him_) (28:32.05)

Absolutely. And I see it happen in one of two ways. Number one, I think because of some of the progress that's been made, I don't know if Gen Z and I guess is it the, what's after Gen Z? Is it the Alpha generation? that what they're calling it? I don't think a lot of people realize the quote unquote business and legal case for DEI. I think because a number of people have been able to benefit. So for example, there was this video,

Chad (28:47.928)

Mm-hmm.

Joel (he/him_) (29:01.944)

where this young man was saying, why does it matter what color someone is if they work at Wendy's? And are you saying that a person should just be chosen just because of their gender or their race? What sense does that make or their religion? And I don't think people realize some of the historical injustices and things that they are not privy to and they didn't have to fight. So I think part of what has to be done is re-educating people that these things that we've secured are tenuous as evidenced by this current, you call it administration regime.

Chad (29:20.888)

Yeah.

Chad (29:27.48)

Mm-hmm.

Joel (he/him_) (29:31.83)

this current administration has made, I think, helped to highlight to people that these things can be taken away in a moment's notice. So I think that's important. The other thing I see is that, there is this social consciousness and, in some cases, impatience where people, young people realize, yeah, I want to work someplace that has certain values. I want to work someplace that is connected. they don't separate themselves and their values.

Chad (29:37.548)

Yes.

Joel (he/him_) (30:00.684)

from their nine to five job to when they're at home or they're with their friends or they're in the community, which I think is smart. The only thing I would say to some of the young people, because I've seen this in some of the organizations is your organization, your workplace can't be everything. And sometimes I see this hard line stands, well, my organization needs to be my therapist, my organization needs to be my, you

has activist strain, I had to be a best friend, it has to create my family, the family I didn't have that I'm estranged from. No entity and frankly no person, for those of you who want to be married, can do that. You have to understand that organizations are there and they can do some things. Organizations can, I think, help to build a sense of community.

I think organizational values are going to be important in terms of choosing where you want to work, where you spend your dollars, where you spend your time. But I think there also has to be a healthy, balanced perspective to realize that, organizations, I think, should lend themselves to some of these larger social issues. But at the end of the day, the main thing we have to focus on is how do we achieve our organizational mission? And so that's where this goes. And so where I think sometimes DEI can get a little bit

far afield is, let's say, again, your job is to make a widget. Well, really where DI is most effective is saying, how do we make sure that we can make the best widget and that everybody has access, we're leveraging everybody's wisdom, everybody has access to move up throughout the organization and can matriculate and to accelerate their career in a way that is healthy and equitable. That's how that works.

Chad (31:40.014)

Mm-hmm.

Joel (he/him_) (31:41.804)

That doesn't mean, for example, that organizations are always gonna be well equipped to be professional activist organizations. That's not how they're designed. And so I think a little bit of a balanced perspective can help. That doesn't mean, however, that, because I don't want anybody coming away from this and think, he's just saying that you should just sell out just to make a buck. No, not at all. But just realize that a certain organization or system is only designed to produce a certain outcome. And let's make sure that we understand that.

Chad (32:06.648)

Mm-hmm.

Joel (he/him_) (32:09.792)

You can hold people accountable for their values and how they support people within the organization, but we can't expect organizations to solve all of our personal needs or all of society's ills or to cure all of society's ills. There's a time and a place and I think organizations realize that, which why they can partner with other organizations to help support philanthropic efforts and things of that nature within the community.

Chad (32:33.806)

So I have a theory and I need you to weigh in on this theory, Dr. Joel. So in 2045, the population is supposed to flip, right? And the white people are supposed to be the minority as opposed to the majority. And I think this is freaking a lot of white dudes out. And I think there is this looking forward and you hear this, I mean, it's total bullshit around

Joel (he/him_) (32:36.268)

Let's hear it.

Joel (he/him_) (32:40.088)

Cool.

Chad (33:02.816)

a lot of the reasons why we're focusing on immigrants right now, right? At least this is what I'm feeling. This is my theory. I think white dudes are freaking the fuck out that 2045 is gonna come, 2045 is gonna come, right? And their legacy is going to be lost. What are your thoughts around that crazy theory?

Joel (he/him_) (33:13.688)

Hahaha

Bye.

Joel (he/him_) (33:21.944)

Well, we hear that in terms of replacement theory. So that's the theory that's bandied about. I think we're already seeing parts of that. I mean, what it really comes down to is people feeling like the country that they knew that they're invested in and their political position within or social position within the country is being lost. And that's happened because you got, you know.

Chad (33:26.519)

Yes.

Joel (he/him_) (33:44.076)

gay folk getting married and you got quote unquote this idea of Latinos running across the border, I'm being facetious. You had a black president and right, and elected twice, right? So, and then you had a Southwest Asian and black vice president. So I do think people are scared. I do think people are being fear-based, which I think is in fact informing a lot of the dissent and a lot of the hostility towards DEI.

Chad (33:46.35)

you

Chad (33:50.253)

Yes.

or the tan suit.

you

Joel (he/him_) (34:13.92)

So what I like to do in my conversations, as I've already shared with you, I like to keep it real. So a lot of times I think we have conversations and we like to sound academic and keep it above the board. And I think there's a place for that. But I do think we also have to address what's under the waterline and the part of the glacier that we're not talking about. So for example, when I have been in those situations again, where people say, and they'll be very curmudgeoning, I really don't believe in this DEI stuff. And this is just reverse racism, all these sorts of things.

Chad (34:23.982)

Mm-hmm.

Joel (he/him_) (34:43.168)

What I like to do is ask them, what's your fear? What's really going on with you? And I will propose a grand theory and say, is your concern here that you're not part of the conversation? Is your concern here that somehow you're going to be minimized, you're going to lose power? And then sharing with them that in reality, I liken it to you have this sprawling mansion and you have this oversized bathroom. And also what I'm saying to you is you probably don't need the

the tub, the jacuzzi tub and the shower, let's just get rid of one of those and you're still gonna be fine, right? So I think having those real conversations, right? Probably the jacuzzi, maybe. But I do think that's part of it, right? I do think that there is a concern that people are going to be replaced. And I think what people need to realize is what's happening is we're transforming and we're being enriched. No one here is, at least from my standpoint,

Joel (35:17.122)

Keep the jacuzzi, by the way. Keep the jacuzzi.

Chad (35:18.798)

you

Joel (he/him_) (35:37.656)

is going to be replaced, nor should they be. I think we're better when we entertain all healthy, inclusive positions and opinions about the world. But there is also a reality that the world is constantly changing and the way we were, let's say, back in the quote unquote good old days is not what we're going to be. And how can we leverage what's there and learn from what's there? That's the most important thing. How do we learn from the diversity that we have, the changing demographics? How can we be better? And in some cases,

The perspectives aren't new. These are things that have been around there for quite some time. So maybe this is a time for us exercise greater curiosity and empathy and say, how can we learn? How can we be better? And how can we make sure that people, no matter who they are, no matter where they come from, can be honored and welcomed and respected? But to your point, that is a larger conversation. And I do think that is part of the fuel-based hysteria.

that we're seeing with respect to and in relation to DI is that people think they're be replaced and people feel like what's been done historically to marginalized groups is also going to happen to them. And I think that's where greater education, more storytelling and more honest dialogue needs to take place so people understand what DI is designed to do. It's not designed to replicate historical grievances, it's designed to correct.

and to support and help remediate historical grievances, at least with the equity piece.

Joel (37:03.148)

You ain't Jacuzzi nobody, so wash, just for the record. Let's take a quick check on White America, shall we?

Joel (he/him_) (37:05.718)

Hahaha

Chad (37:11.394)

Uh-uh.

Joel (37:14.126)

All right, Joel, I'll let you out on this one. By the way, I like the sound of Dr. Joel. I like that. That sounds some sensuous night at home. I might throw that in. Voting with your dollars. Where should we be spending money if we support this issue? Where should we maybe be driving past and avoiding on this issue? Where do you shop to support and where do you put your dollars?

Chad (37:19.415)

You

Joel (he/him_) (37:19.714)

Thank you.

Joel (he/him_) (37:42.712)

Well, I am putting my money in places that not only I'm avoiding spending money in places that don't support social justice and a lot of the values that I align, but more importantly, I'm putting my money in places that do so places where I think it could help those communities and those entrepreneurs, businesses and enterprises that are underfunded, undervalued and perhaps invisible. All right.

Joel (38:05.626)

We name names on this show, Dr. Joel. We name the names.

Chad (38:08.63)

No target. No target.

Joel (he/him_) (38:10.772)

I mean, so yes, I am spending a lot more time at Costco. I don't live in a Delta hub, but I certainly am using Delta more often. I always loved vintage ice cream. So, I mean, what I would say to people is, you know, do the research because of course you can find out very quickly which organizations are invested in DEI and social justice, which ones are not, and also check to see if they're being performative.

I had a situation very recently where from my 50th, we were going to be hosting it at the Miller Caves in Milwaukee. Miller has this, there's these caves where they used to house the beer to keep it cool and chill. I know it's gonna make you guys pretty excited about that. But unfortunately, Miller is a very progressive organization. The parent company Molson Coors is not. And so we made the decision.

Joel (38:57.43)

Say more.

Chad (38:57.807)

yeah.

Joel (he/him_) (39:06.936)

A hard one, but a very quick one to say we can't have any type of celebration there because of your stance on the I and we also make sure that we communicated that. So I would say as you as consumers, as us, whoever you may be as citizens, as you make your decisions, also communicate to the organizations why you're not supporting them and also to make sure that you're giving your money to places that are supporting the values that are important to you. So again, Apple is still holding on to the D.I. initiatives. I know they're allowed. There's some law firms are now starting to pull back.

So these are all intentional. These are options for intentional choices. These are options for us to decide where we're going to spend our money. And also in some cases, I'm saying, I want to kind of be more mindful and start the system. So in any situation where I feel like there's a compromise or I feel like people are not reflecting my values, that's one thing I'm going to keep home. And I want to support more local businesses, particularly those from underserved communities. so wherever you might be, whether it's in Columbus or Indianapolis, Indiana or elsewhere,

Chad (39:54.03)

you

Joel (he/him_) (40:06.184)

Do the research. Look up local vendors and retailers. Figure out where you can put your money that's going to have the greatest impact, particularly with social justice organizations, and continue to fund those places, particularly that are under attack for reasons that we've already talked about based on their affinity for DEI or justice or freedom as we used to know it.

Chad (40:28.792)

Well, kids, that is Dr. Joel A. Davis Brown. That's right. Dr. Brown. Well, first and foremost, I'd like to know just from an equity standpoint that the Golden Gophers are not going to get an equal amount of national championships from our Ohio State Buckeyes. at the... them some time.

Joel (he/him_) (40:46.504)

the haterade. Look at you. Look at you. I'm more worried about my Milwaukee Brewers at this point. They can't seem to stop anybody from putting home wines, but that's neither here nor there.

Joel (40:57.174)

It's early. It's a long season.

Chad (40:58.466)

Given some time given some time. somebody if one of the listeners want to reach out they want to connect with you and or you know they might want to buy the book. Where can they find out more about you connect with you and buy a book.

Joel (he/him_) (41:11.042)

Sure, so my book is The Souls of Queer Folk, How Understanding LGBTQ Culture Can Transform Your Leadership Practice. You can find me at JoelDavisBrown.com. You can find the company at Newmost.com, that's spelled with a P, it's a Greek word, P-N-E-U-M-O-S. You can find me on LinkedIn, or you can find me at Instagram at JoelABrown. I'm trying to not be as much on social media, but I still need to be hip and cool and be able to know what's going on. So go subscribe to my channel.

Chad (41:36.91)

Gotta get on the TikToks.

Joel (41:38.382)

And speaking of hip and cool, Costco.

Joel (he/him_) (41:39.704)

Yes, that's what I mean too. Up to, that's right, correct. Yes.

Joel (41:42.542)

Costco, it's not just a dollar 50 hot dog. It's diversity, equity and inclusion. That's another one in the can Chad. We out.

Joel (he/him_) (41:46.008)

hahahaha

Chad (41:48.174)

Yes! We out!

Joel (he/him_) (41:50.774)

Yes. Yes.