Jobandtalent is Coming to America, Neil Diamond-Style


Between shipments of baby formula to the U.S., Finland and Sweden applying for NATO and the impending monkeypox apocalypse, asking people to keep up with the employment scene in Europe isn't easy. So aren't you lucky Chad & Cheese, joined by Lieven, are here to make sense of it all? This week, Jobandtalent sets it's sights on the U.S., buy-or-sell with Werk and Whoz and an interview from the E-recruitment Congress.


PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by:

Disability Solutions works with employers each step of the way as consultative recruiting and engagement strategists for the disability community.


INTRO (6s):

anaHide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.


Joel (28s):

All yeah, more than 75,000 pounds of imported baby formula from Europe landed in the US this week. It's about time our allies return the favor for World War II. What's up kids? You're listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast does Europe. I'm your cohost Joel "Operation Fly Formula" Cheeseman.


Chad (48s):

This is Chad "you'd better work" Sowash.


Lieven (52s):

And I'm Lieven, "not going to Unleash ever again" Van Nieuwenhuyze.


Joel (57s):

And on this episode, Job and Talent prepares for its US invasion, buy or sell with work and woes, or is that who's? And more E-recruitment Congress. Goodness, let's do this.


sfx (1m 9s):

Europe has a bunch of countries in it.


Chad (1m 12s):

Okay. We can't let this slide. Why are you not going to Unleash? We, you teased us and you told us we're, you're coming to Unleash and now we're going to be Lieven free.


Lieven (1m 24s):

Basically, just because I'm cheap. I applied to a free ticket sale for free tickets to interesting people and then they decided I wasn't interesting enough. And I didn't apply for a free ticket. So I thought, fuck Unleash and I'm not going.M


Chad (1m 39s):

Oh God. Okay. Well, we're going to have to smooth this out with Mark and the kids that were at Unleash because you're definitely interesting. They might've, you know, got that confused with Belgium. I don't know.


Joel (1m 49s):

Yeah, he's gotta be in attendance at Paris. We can't have a Paris without Lieven. That's just not, not going to happen.


Chad (1m 57s):

Credit plus


Joel (1m 57s):

A credit and a steak is what we're going to get Lieven in Paris.


Lieven (2m 1s):

Aan American steak. Okay. I heard a lot about those after you're bitching about the bar's mistakes in Ostend.


Joel (2m 10s):

Lieven comes in the green room and says I had a really good steak in what city? Brussels.


Lieven (2m 14s):

I don't know what I said. I had a really good steak. I didn't mention where it was. It was in Belgium, but I did mention it was better than the one you had in Ostend.


Joel (2m 22s):

And then he says it was petite. And I said, oh, it was like a six ounce when he's like no smaller. And I said, what do they serve up steak nuggets on a plate in Europe, like, how is this a good steak if it's smaller than six ounces?


Lieven (2m 35s):

It's about quality Joel quality.


Chad (2m 38s):

It's exactly right.


Joel (2m 39s):

Not in American baby. It's about grill marks and size.


Chad (2m 43s):

Grill marks and obesity. That's what it's all about.


Joel (2m 46s):

All right. It's established. We're getting Lieven at Unleash in Paris and we're having a good steak.


Chad (2m 54s):

OK.


Lieven (2m 54s):

Promise?


Joel (2m 54s):

Promise.


Chad (2m 54s):

Promise.


Joel (2m 55s):

Unless you want to come to Rekfest in July and see if the Brits have good steak?


Lieven (3m 1s):

I can do both.


Joel (3m 1s):

Okay. There you go.


Chad (3m 2s):

You can do both. That's what I'm talking about. Okay. Shout outs.


Joel (3m 5s):

I love how we wrapped our travel schedule and then Chadcheese.com for more information. Yeah, we got some shout outs here everybody. I'll go first. Shout out to tourism and healthcare. Oh, well guys, a baby formula shortage. What?


Chad (3m 23s):

I said my favorite.


Joel (3m 23s):

Oh yeah. Shout out to your favorite or tourist and healthcare. Anyway,


Chad (3m 28s):

Tourist and healthcare.


Joel (3m 29s):

Shout out to tourism and healthcare. Chad's favorite. Well guys, a baby formula, shortage, Sweden and Finland, joining NATO and monkey pox maybe throwing the world for a loop and a recession may be right around the corner, but tourism and healthcare are bright spots for Europe. The world travel and tourism council's latest economic impact report suggests Europe will create nearly 8 million new travel jobs. In the next decade. The sector is expected to grow at twice the rate of the overall economy. It also reveals Europe's tourism. GDP is forecast to grow by 31.4%.


Joel (4m 8s):

Wow. At one point 73 trillion euros and only half of that is from the Sowashes. Once more, you know, you do the Western Europe medical recruitment market is now estimated to be valued at $21.2 US billion dollars by the end of 2028. Turns out old people, disease and a growing population are good for European business. Shout out to tourism and healthcare.


Chad (4m 36s):

Nice. That's sweet. That's sweet. Yeah. Yeah. So my shout out goes to the EU for pay transparency. Members of the European parliament demand EU companies with at least 50 employees be required to disclose information that make it easier for those working for the same employer, to compare salaries and expose an existing gender pay gap in their organization. On last Friday's show, we actually talked about how the US women's football team, that's soccer for you. Americans was able to strike an equal wage deal with the men that all started because pay transparency.


Chad (5m 16s):

So kudos to the EU and driving action while the US is still fighting tooth and nail to stave off equity.


Joel (5m 26s):

That shout out was way better than mine. Lieven?


Lieven (5m 30s):

My shout-outs goes to FaZe Clan. And if you don't know face Glen, you're old because FaZe Clan, There's nothing wrong with being old.


Chad (5m 41s):

Oh my God Lieven's in a mood today.


Joel (5m 43s):

It's cause his cable guy hasn't showed up yet.


Lieven (5m 45s):

I've been waiting for six hours for the cable guy to show up. I couldn't do any meeting at all because the cable guy was going to show up and then the cable guy didn't show up. But anyways, I was talking about FaZe Clan yeah FaZe Clan. the CS go major yesterday in Antwerp. And if you don't know what to CS go major yesterday in Antwerp and your old also, because it has been followed by 170 million people worldwide and 40,000 people were present. So that's the biggest CS go Counter-Strike tournament, first yearly a big event. It's called a major. Yesterday the finals were in Antwerp. I was there and I must say it really is amazing.


Lieven (6m 26s):

I've been telling for quite some years now that our e-sports is getting big enough for us HR people to be present and to, so to use it as recruitment platform. So I was there to check it out and it is amazing. It's like soccer finals, World Cup soccer on steroids with a combination with Tomorrow lands. And if you don't know Tomorrow land your old also, but it's a big music festival and nevermind that just wants a wall check the videos. It's great.


Chad (6m 60s):

Wow! So 40,000 were alive. And how many were streaming?


Lieven (7m 5s):

170 million. That's more like the Super Bowl.


Chad (7m 8s):

Holy fuck.


Joel (7m 9s):

What's the Superbowl, a hundred million?


Lieven (7m 11s):

140 or something.


Joel (7m 12s):

140?


Lieven (7m 13s):

On the best dat. So


Joel (7m 14s):

Yeah,


Lieven (7m 14s):

Yeah. Yeah. It's huge. It's huge. Surely. And it's something like a parallel world. And HR just don't know about it because on average, we are like HR managers are like older and 35 or in our 40s or whatever. And it's something new and young people are constantly active in this, but to be our not, and this is something we should be active in. So I'm a big propagandists of the e-sports to get.


Joel (7m 38s):

So were there any, cause we talked about this at the ECongress. Were there any sponsors, advertisers that sort of piqued your interest or got your attention that's worth mentioning?


Lieven (7m 49s):

The employment now. And I still think it's a missed chance.


Joel (7m 53s):

That sounds like opportunity to me.


Lieven (8m 0s):

Definitely.


Chad (8m 0s):

Opportunities knockin and so are topics. TOPICS!


Joel (8m 7s):

All right guys, one of Europe's is coming to America. That's after much speculation JobAndTalent is not messing around. The Spanish based company has appointed MIT grad Diego de Haro Ruiz as CEO of it's US operations. Prior to JobandTalent, Diego worked as a senior consultant for McKinsey in Madrid and as Chief Revenue Officer at New York, city-based, Aon a subsidiary, their subsidiary CoverWallet, which is an online insurance provider for small businesses. JobandTalent entered the US market earlier this year with the acquisition of InStaff for 32.3 million USD but looks like that was just the beginning.


Joel (8m 51s):

Guys. What do we think of JobandTalent's US aspirations.


Chad (8m 57s):

If you check out the Aim group's article entitled JobandTalent appoints regional CEO in the US. It made me step back for a minute, because when you say regional CEO, you don't generally mean the United States, right? It's like a polite backhand. So it was one of those very polite European backhands. Hey US, you're a region to us. Anyway.


Lieven (9m 26s):

So you're offended now?


Chad (9m 28s):

Totally offended. Sons of bitches! JobandTalent put 200,000 people in jobs across more than 2000 companies during 2021. So what they're doing is obviously working, or at least it seems to be working. Diego has a great pedigree, Aon MIT, McKinsey, yet nothing in this space, the staffing or recruitment space at all. So his last position was as a CRO for Aon, which Joel is talking about. Obviously he's smart. He's got a great pedigree. They're going to be focused on revenues in this area although a product like JobandTalent needs to have industry insiders to make the connections, to get the big deals done. Just because this guy has a great pedigree, does it mean he knows where to go or how to navigate this slow moving system?


Chad (10m 15s):

So the best thing that Diego can do is surround himself with people who know what the fuck they're doing in this industry. I also need to kind of harken back to a conversation we've always been having around JobandTalent, is staffing versus tech. I understand the portfolios, they have been buying through acquisition on the staffing side, like their newest in Norway, they pretty much bought Norway is what I think Lieven said. The question is will JobandTalent keep the high margins that staffing enjoys or kickstart job.com narrative around faster access to better match talent with smaller margins by tech. I'm not sure where they go from here, because all we're doing is trying to substitute tech for people in staffing, or are we trying to drive better margins, efficiencies whenever you read into any of their narrative or their discussions, press releases you don't really get a good idea.


Chad (11m 15s):

So Lieven your thoughts on that. Okay.


Lieven (11m 17s):

Well, the guy studied at MIT and I love MIT. I mean, we just bought a company called TMI, which is almost the same thing.


Chad (11m 28s):

It's too much information.


Lieven (11m 29s):

But I think he's probably very intelligent, but he also sounds a bit boring, I guess. And about a regional CEO for the US, that's something I like. I mean, the US actually as a region that, I mean, you only have a one language. That's like English, you don't need money. See us we have like a thousand HR. We have 45 CEOs as, because there are so many languages, but the US, you only have one language so one CEO should be plenty. So no need to be offended. But JobandTalent is something I've always been it's something that's a bit strange. I didn't even really know them. I mean the Spanish and we are supposed to know them, they are a pretty big brand and you're going to the US. They claim to be very digital, which I don't really think they are.


Lieven (12m 12s):

It's more of a foresight. They got plenty of money because today it's easy to get plenty of money, but they still need to execute it. I wonder how we're going to do it? But the U S would probably be the place to prove.


Chad (12m 25s):

Yeah, but it seems like they're going into more competitive waters with all of the staffing companies over here, as opposed to when we first started talking about JobandTalent, we were talking about how they could perspectively be the operating system. The technology behind most of these staffing companies kind of working white label and helping staffing companies create better margins, but they're not doing that. They're actually going, it looks like head to head with other staffing companies from a competitive standpoint. To me that doesn't make sense. What do you, what do you think about?


Lieven (12m 58s):

Is yes a good answer?


Joel (13m 0s):

So I guess the question for me is just the tip strategy? Are they all in on the US? And we've talked a lot about JobandTalent in the past year. We know that they've raised upwards of $250 million. We know that they're a multi-year unicorn. We know that they've talked about IPO. We know that they're making acquisitions, so they have to do this to appease their investors. And if they're going to go IPO, they need to talk about hitting America. So it's no surprise that this is happening. They're also doing it in the midst of an impending recession. America never really goes very well for a lot of European companies. There are well-established competitors in this market. I think it's going to be a disaster for JobandTalent to come to the US at the time that they're coming over.


Joel (13m 45s):

It'll be fun to talk about. But to me, this is going to be a big flush of money in euros, down the toilet. Good luck with it kids. But if we get to play Neil Diamond?


sfx (13m 60s):

Coming to America song.


Joel (14m 1s):

I'm all for it. All right. Let's take a quick break and play a little buy or sell.


sfx (14m 6s):

Europe has a bunch of countries in it.


Joel (14m 9s):

Oh, buy or sell, you know, it, you love it. Let's play it! Doing an abbreviated version, we're doing two companies. Cause we have some interviews with E recruitment Congress that we want to play. So let's get to it. We're first going to talk about work. That's spelled W E R K because it's Europe and it's cool. Estonia based work, a hiring and relocation platform for skilled migrant construction workers announced last week that it has raised 1.23 million euros in a pre-seed round of funding. The platform enables companies to hire skilled and vetted migrant construction workers handling everything from recruitment and verification to relocation.


Joel (14m 49s):

Werk says it has reached over 2000 verified and vetted construction workers and has customers within Estonia, Finland, Sweden, and Denmark. All right. Lieven, are you a buyer sell on work?


Lieven (15m 1s):

That's a good question. And for those wants to know Werk, you spell it like twerk, but without the t, that's a good start. And it also means some work. We spell it the same way back. It's called a werk. So they've got the basics, right? So they've got a good name Werk, it's pretty straight forward, Werk. So that's a good start. I'm really, really into names. Okay. So then Estonia. Estonia is probably the most digital minded country in the whole of Europe. And that's not a joke. I mean, I've been there once to visit one of their government agencies, trying to promote people to found a company in Estonia. And they just, they explained to me, we didn't really have, after USSR collapsed, we didn't really have the money to launch something old school.


Lieven (15m 49s):

So we made everything digital because we just couldn't afford it not to be digital. So they had a big headstart and now they're doing great. So launching a company, digital platform and hiring and relocation in Estonia is a success, I'm sure. If they executed, right. That will be a big one. They are only starting. I mean, they just got, how was it? How much was it? 1.2 million euros, something like that.


Joel (16m 14s):

20.23 million euros in pre-seed funding.


Lieven (16m 16s):

Presale was like, like pre-seed. It's like something is coming, but it's only the pre-phase good stress coming. It's so optimistic. The pre-seed. Okay. I strongly believe in firm recruitment. I strongly believe in recruiting of skilled workers and in digital platforms because shortage is structural. And as long as the salaries in Western countries will stay higher, skilled workers from other regions will be eager to join. So for longer periods, shorter periods, whatever, but they will come. So I think we need those workers and if they can provide them, it will be a hit! But that's just the startup and they have to prove. It's definitely a buy to me.


Joel (16m 53s):

Sounds like a buy to me, Chad, where are you?


Chad (16m 56s):

So Lieven I've heard Talon is gorgeous. Have you ever been there?


Lieven (16m 58s):

Yeah. And I love it.


Chad (16m 59s):

You love it? Yeah. That's that's on my short list. That's on my short list. Gotta check it out. But yeah, Estonia's a tech hub, and right now it seems like they have about 2000 workers in their database from Estonia, Finland, Sweden, and Denmark. Doesn't seem like a lot, but it seems like a good seed, pre-seed of, of talent. The question is will construction workers trust an app? And will Werk, have enough cash to reach them? There are pockets of construction workers all over the EU, but trying to market to 20 plus countries could be pretty costly. So the big question is, will they be able to hit those pockets?


Chad (17m 41s):

And you know, I'm not even sure are there like unions that they could work with to be able to get more workers into their database? Do you know, Lieven?


Lieven (17m 50s):

The only thing I know is that the Baltics aren't really into unions. They don't really like them.


Chad (17m 55s):

So I'm going to go with no.


Lieven (17m 59s):

Probably no.


Chad (17m 59s):

That makes it harder for them to actually reach out and get these individuals into, especially if you don't have like a specific one organization to work with. So that makes it a lot harder. They're also "Werking", working on developing a testing, relocation functionality, automating the visa and residents permit process, opening up bank accounts, flights, accommodations. So it looks like they're trying to be like this full service platform, which I think is a hundred percent necessary, especially for individuals in these types of jobs. So for me, it is incredibly early, obviously pre-stage, or pre-seed stage early, but I'm a big fan.


Chad (18m 41s):

I'm buying this.


Joel (18m 42s):

Chad, what do you think about their testing social feature that allows workers to talk to one another, receive advice, ask questions and all that good shit. I mean, that sounds like an additional asset, the sort of danced around, but in terms of unions and getting these people on the same page, I think that's going to be really interesting to watch. Yeah. This Facebook for construction workers, I guess, will be interested in.


Chad (19m 4s):

Yeah, yeah, yeah. If it gets to that, I almost think there, there will be communities, which I think is incredibly smart. And if they could build those communities, I almost see this as like a mini Jobcase, where they have communities that are all set up and they can, they can connect with each other and they can get those tips. And I think if they can, if they can model off of something like Jobcase, then, then they might have a winner, but still they have to hit those individuals. And if there's, if there aren't any big unions or big established organizations where you can hit many of them, it's going to be a lot of marketing money.


Lieven (19m 39s):

It would be the case. But I think staying away from the unions in this case is probably a good idea. I think. And if there are some countries in Europe, practice might succeed, it will be in those countries. Penetration of broadband has been extremely high in those regions forever. So it does people are, if everywhere, if anywhere it would be there. If the labor workers are going to use internet, that will be derived are going to use apps that will be there. So it could be a nice start, young people wherever they are. I mean, they've grown up with this kind of app. So if they're into construction or into anything else, they know it's, I don't think that will be a problem getting to know it that's something else. But if you offer a better, bigger salary, people will talk about it, send it to a Werk.


Joel (20m 21s):

It sounds like the young people are at the gaming events.


Lieven (20m 25s):

Do you know in the Baltic states there it's even bigger than in Western Europe. I mean, Ukraine, the Baltics, even Russia. I mean, e-sports is bigger than in the west. There you go. So yes, for them it should be definitely a good idea.


Joel (20m 38s):

All right. We got two buys. Let's see what I got to say about this stuff. All right guys, newsflash Europe's old. Shit needs to be repaired. Shit needs to be fixed. Shit needs to be built and they need immigrants to do it just like America does. So construction is a good place to be. A recession in a war zone isn't great for the short term of this business, but longterm Europe is going to need a lot of skilled immigrants and Ukraine is going to have to be rebuilt. The seed round should get work to the promise land in time for boats and hoes.


Joel (21m 19s):

I also am a buy on Twerk, I mean Werk. Let's get a startup number two. Should we call it who's or woes?


Chad (21m 28s):

I like, woes.


Joel (21m 30s):

You like woes all right. It's spelled W H O Z. I kinda like Who's better. But anyway,


Lieven (21m 43s):

Hoes?


Joel (21m 44s):

Say goodbye to those Microsystems.


Lieven (21m 45s):

That's Werk and Whoz


Joel (21m 48s):

Werk and Whoz. Oh, why does our show always go into the gutter? I don't get it? Alright Whoz, Whose, Was whatever you want to call it say goodbye to those Microsoft Excel headaches, Whoz, whose or hoes, a Paris based staffing, talent and project portfolio management solutions provider has raised 25 million euros in funding led by PSG equity. The funding will facilitate the startups present in the French market while expanding into new regions like the US, Germany, the UK and India. Founded in 2016, the SAAS platform promises to address the entire staffing process, including skills mapping team-building, management, planning, and identification skills, gap trends in order to adjust recruitment and training plans.


Joel (22m 33s):

So who's buying or selling Whoz? Hoes? Or woes?


Lieven (22m 35s):

I read their press release because I didn't really know them. They raised 25 million so they should be doing something right. But in the press release, there was one sentence which was in bold and underlined. So I scanned the text and I thought, okay, this must be important. So I'm going to read the sentence "In today's environment of a scarcity of talent, staffing as a driver of competitive advantage for companies." And I read it five times and I still couldn't get why they put it in bold and underlined it. So I gave up, I don't think I've read the whole thing and I couldn't find anything actually. Exactly knew. They claim to be very judged digitalizing Europe. And they've been in the business since 2016, which they claim is very long.


Lieven (23m 16s):

But I mean, we are longer in the business and we are not old. I just couldn't get it. I mean, they talk a lot and they tell a lot, but they didn't tell me anything new and I still don't exactly get what they're doing, but maybe you got it. It was written in English so maybe I got lost in translation. If it's my money, I won't by it. Maybe with someone else. That's right. But no, I wont.


Joel (23m 41s):

All right. That's a sell from Lieven. Chad, what you got?


Chad (23m 45s):

First off. I think it's incredibly smart to target staffing companies, as we've said, many times on this podcast, recruiting is a business for staffing and RPO where recruiting is a job for talent acquisition. The difference is understanding the bottom line, margins, EBITDA, those types of things. Most staffing companies need a future forward operating system. Not all of them are like yours Lieven, because they don't have it today. Most of the staffing companies that I've actually spoken with between the US and EU are happy with the big margins that they currently have, but that's by keeping things pretty much the same as it ever was.


Chad (24m 25s):

They are using tech for things like outreach, posting, programmatic, those types of things, but they're not doing the automation pieces. They're not really focusing on management inefficiencies internally. So I think this could be a very progressive way for them to go after many staffing organizations to help them future-proof and recession-proof themselves. If they can get it done, they can pretty much be as I'd said before, with JobandTalent, they could prospectively be that backend operating system that most staffing organizations focus on instead of having to go through layoffs all the times, they hit a recession. So it's a buy for me.


Joel (25m 7s):

One buy, one sell.


Lieven (25m 8s):

All right. So you believe you believe staffing is a driver of competitive advantage for companies?


Chad (25m 13s):

Always.


Lieven (25m 13s):

Okay. Why not? Why not?


Joel (25m 16s):

So I think I'm with Lieven on this one. And part of it is there's a clear messaging challenge for this company in terms of, of what they're doing. From my perspective, what I read and and saw on the website is like, there's too much competition. What they're doing. There's too much money going into companies. And I looked at them more as a competitor to like Remote, Oyster and Deel than I did a staffing company. And they talk a lot about sourcing and skills mapping and all that good stuff from their website. So they clearly have a messaging quandary in terms of what the hell they do. I think they should forget about the US. They have no chance in cracking our market anytime soon. India is kind of a real mystery in terms of what the hell you need to do to conquer India.


Joel (25m 59s):

So if you want to go into the US and India, good luck with that one. To me, this is a knife in a gunfight. So for me, and Lieven are going to be big sells on Whoz, hoes and woes. Figure out the name first, and then figure out if we're buy or sell, on that one. Well, guys that wraps up another fun-filled adventure with buy or sell. For the listeners we're going to cut really quickly to an interview that we did at the E recruitment Congress with CandidateIDs recently acquired by iCIMS so I guess he's technically an iCIMS employee now, Steven McGrath and we had a great conversation with him didn't we Chad?


Chad (26m 41s):

Love this guy. Love this guy. He is fucking hilarious. First and foremost. I mean, we got to say Adam Gordon still our favorite Scot, guy. Okay. So it's okay, Adam. It's all good, but yeah, but Steven is so amazing. He's hilarious. And we had a great, great interview with him. What about you Lieven what'd you think about Steve? Would you have him back on stage at the Erecruitment Congress?


Lieven (27m 8s):

I mean, I changed my holiday directions. I'm going to Scotland in July. So I was totally flabbergasted by the guy he's like said, he said, hilarious is funny, but he's also, I heard from so many people that he was actually the best masterclass that they saw. I didn't see it. I was talking somewhere else at the same moment. So I missed his presentation. It's a pity, but I heard so many good things about him. And we had some dinner with him. He liked his steak, Joel didn't, but he liked steak.


Joel (27m 37s):

That's the only strike on Steven. Whereas I'm concerned a little context for the listeners. Chad and I were in the hotel bar, either recording or talking and this a jovial bearded barrel chested guy comes in with a shirt that literally says Scotland on it. And came over to us because, you know, two guys with a mic, it's gotta be Chad and Cheese in Ostend. And struck up a conversation. And the guy was just the most fun, quick witted, everything, everything was just a blast hanging out with him. So I, I certainly hope that we can do it again very soon.


Joel (28m 17s):

Hopefully I'll come out to some of our European travels, but yeah, Steven McGrath quickly came up into the top Scott's that Chad and I have ever run into and our travels and this was a really fun, great interview.


Chad (28m 32s):

And here's the interview.


Joel (28m 34s):

Hey guys, what's up? We're back live from Ostend, Belgium at the


Chad (28m 38s):

Well kind of live.


Joel (28m 40s):

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I'm not going there. We're feeling it. Okay.


Chad (28m 43s):

Ooh.


Joel (28m 43s):

Where are we again in Ostend at the Erecruitment Congress.


Chad (28m 46s):

How many Belgian beers have we had by this point?


Joel (28m 50s):

What time is it? Because we've been drinking since about 11am.


Chad (28m 51s):

No fucking clue. This is great.


Joel (28m 53s):

Total entrapment. Hey guys. Here's where you sit and here's a fridge of beer. I don't know how that got there, but if it's gone when you're gone. Hey. Yes. So anyway, Steve, welcome to the show. Steve McGrath is solutions consultant at our friends CandidateID/iCIMS. Big friends of the show.


Chad (29m 13s):

Slash iCIMS. Yeah.


Joel (29m 14s):

Adam or Steve is Adam Gordon's boss, apparently. And he's here in his place.


Chad (29m 18s):

We got the upgrade. We got the Adam Gordon upgrade. This is awesome.


Joel (29m 22s):

Oh, is he in Bora Bora with a Ewan McGregor and Sean Connery, I guess. Partying up with a French models. Thanks for coming, Steve, we appreciate you hanging out with us.


Chad (29m 34s):

Not to mention, we have somebody who actually sounds Scottish now. Right?


Joel (29m 37s):

Worked in a whiskey distillery. We may have time to talk about that.


Chad (29m 42s):

I mean, this is three strikes you're out. I love this.


Joel (29m 46s):

I've never had a glass of drink of scotch with a Scotsman.


Stephen (29m 50s):

We'll solve that right after this.


Chad (29m 52s):

Yes. Yeah, no, tonight we're definitely doing that. He's staying the night. We're here, scotch. It's all on. Okay. So let's get into so enough FOMO for all of you, people that were not at E recruitment Congress, you missed a great talk, right with Stephen. Stephen, tell them a little bit about your talk, hit the high points, and then we're just going to roll into it.


Stephen (30m 13s):

Yeah, absolutely. First of all, I'm really appreciative that you've given me the comfy chair because I was looking at the rickety wooden thing, thinking, this must be where they make.


Chad (30m 33s):

That's the only thing that would Cheesman up.


Stephen (30m 36s):

I'm just going to sit in this chair drinking Belgium beer. The talk was really about building powerful, nurture talent pipelines, making sure that people are armed with the right type of content that they're gonna create, the right type of tracking that they might put in place, whether that's through our platform or not. You know, just making sure that they're monitoring that correctly, making sure that they know what people are doing. Just not throwing stuff out there and hoping for the best, because let's face it.


Chad (31m 1s):

Folks don't even know what nurture means though. So help us understand what nurture means.


Stephen (31m 4s):

Yeah. So not sure there's a word that just started to get thrown around in recruitment a few years ago.


Chad (31m 9s):

It's been around for, I don't know, a hundred years.


Joel (31m 13s):

Warm and fuzzy, nurture.


Stephen (31m 13s):

And, and I think as you know, it's one of those kind of buzzwords of the day but the reality is that nurture means that we need to make sure that we're taking people through a continual process of engagement, of content, of making sure that they're ready. That I've put upstairs was that when they're ready, you're ready and vice versa.


Chad (31m 38s):

You're ready together.


Stephen (31m 41s):

Exactly.


Chad (31m 41s):

That's like a hug. Yeah. And Joel needs hugs.


Joel (31m 45s):

So when you, when you talk about nurturing to me too many people are trying to get into people's pants too quickly. I think what you're talking about is let's have a drink before we take this any further, and maybe I'm simplifying this, but I think that's sort of what you're saying. So put that in terms of recruitment, how should they think about that? This isn't an email blast, let's get busy. This is like a real relationship. Talk about that.


Stephen (32m 10s):

Yeah, for sure. And, that's the thing, I highlighted during the talk, was why in the world are we sending job descriptions to people that we don't know anything about, that aren't ready for any kind of conversation. And we just see, Hey, do you want to work here? We're no different to the company that you currently work for. We don't do anything different in terms of strategy.


Chad (32m 34s):

It's like Mormons coming to your front door.


Stephen (32m 37s):

It's not kidding.


Joel (32m 38s):

Let's not, let's not offend some, you know, we're not going to go there.


Stephen (32m 45s):

Chad and Cheese podcast listeners.


Joel (32m 46s):

A lot of Mormons listening to this show.


Chad (32m 49s):

Yes. It's all unite.


Joel (32m 50s):

Whiskey drinkers and Mormons have a lot in common, a lot in common.


Stephen (32m 55s):

It is absolutely that. It is that like why on earth would we just send something that doesn't mean anything to anybody, you know, let's start engagement at the point where candidates start engagement, you know, in that kind of social media realm in that realm of making sure that all your kind of employer brand another buzzword, but that is actually correct. It's not just what the company portrays is. What you portray.


Joel (33m 16s):

Simplify this for a second. I come to, I want to work at your company. I look for jobs. There isn't necessarily one there that I'm interested in or qualified for, but I still want to keep a relationship with the company. What are some best practices of getting someone in the funnel, tempting that the squirrel with a nut, you know, to get them in and then how do you work them through and keep in contact? Is it the monthly email? Is it ask them to follow you on social media and sort of keep them in the loop that way, what's your best recommendations there.


Chad (33m 50s):

Cheeseman's all about the nuts.


Joel (33m 53s):

And the funnel.


Stephen (33m 54s):

How many monthly emails?


Joel (33m 55s):

Nuts in the funnel? Let's talk about that.


Stephen (33m 58s):

How many monthly emails do you get?


Chad (33m 60s):

Too fucking many. Let's talk about daily?


Stephen (34m 1s):

How many do you read?


Joel (34m 4s):

The point is too many, right?


Stephen (34m 5s):

So it's that kind of scenario. We need to be scattering that across a variety of different channels. You know, that's what people mistake not to mean. That's where the mistake engagement to mean. You know, oh, I sent a monthly newsletter. Why are people not engaged with me? Who cause your social media isn't up-to-date because you've not said anything about your company on your LinkedIn.


Chad (34m 24s):

Or you're not doing a TikTok. That's a problem.


Stephen (34m 27s):

That could be a problem as well. Yeah. We've actually allowed that, you know, things like that do make moves. So, you know, it's catering to your audience, but making sure that you're covering all bases, I was going to try and use an American baseball analogy there, but I've never watched a game in my life. So skip that. I'd never watched.


Chad (34m 47s):

He's a man. He's a man after my own heart. I'm American. I don't like baseball and I hate cricket. Okay. So,


Stephen (34m 56s):

But you know, certainly just making sure


Joel (34m 57s):

I hope it's fun and hell when you're not the American pastime, everybody,


Stephen (35m 2s):

But you know, just making sure that you do have those, you know, as really simple things that that should be covered, that aren't covered. Someone's going on to view your entire presence online. Make sure that that, that is a good person.


Joel (35m 16s):

Formulate that because I think people mistakenly think, well, if I put up a blog post, I can send out that same blog post, via email. I can put a link to that blog post on all my social media and I'm done. And it's much more nuanced than that. Right? Your audience on social media is different than the audience that wants email, that wants to read your blog and people need to start thinking about what does different content look like in different mediums? Yes?


Stephen (35m 43s):

Yes, absolutely. There's a reason that there's a character limit on Twitter, right? Like there's a reason. It's how can I engage people within X amount of time? You know, chuckin' up something that says, Hey, read this 1000 word blog about the thing they actually want to take on Twitter, is not going to go very well, you know, adjust it accordingly. Sure. Take the highlight from that book, post on Twitter,


Joel (36m 6s):

Or maybe take a soundbite and make an image with a quote from the blog post.


Stephen (36m 11s):

You. Don't do something like that. Yeah, sure. Take the content that you've got recycle that content, but adapt that content importantly, for the mediums that you're using.


Joel (36m 23s):

What advice would you give the company that just blast job postings through social media?


Chad (36m 30s):

I love this. I love this. What about the company that has a, I don't know, half an hour application process.


Stephen (36m 38s):

I just, I think.


Joel (36m 39s):

Stop.


Stephen (36m 40s):

I was going to just say stop, but I think that's one of my biggest things that we're trying to combat with CandidateID customers just know, you know, it's not.


Chad (36m 52s):

Because you can draw them in, but if you, but if you bring them into an application process that is total shit. I mean, what has actually been accomplished?


Stephen (36m 58s):

Here, we've spent lots of time getting you to fill out forms, details. We've got your resume and a CV for you. Hey, by the way, can you just repeat all of that again in separate boxes with separate things like no, get rid of it. You don't need it. I actually told a story upstairs. I worked at CandidateID without ever seeing a job description. I worked with ever applying formally for the job.


Chad (37m 25s):

Oh, tell me about that. Tell me about that.


Stephen (37m 26s):

Adam reached out to me.


Joel (37m 27s):

Such an icon.


Stephen (37m 28s):

I just seen his face and I was like, oh,


Chad (37m 37s):

So he sets a sexy man. He was in his kilt. Wasn't he? He was in his kilt.


Stephen (37m 52s):

Him in his kilt in LinkedIn and I thought, that's the man I want to work for.


Joel (37m 58s):

Sexy Rangers game.


Chad (37m 58s):

Kilt man.


Stephen (37m 58s):

Cause that awkward, like, oh wait how far can I push it right now?


Chad (38m 1s):

How's it going to say he was red when he walked in?


Stephen (38m 3s):

Exactly. No. So Adam actually reached out to me on LinkedIn told me little bit about the job. Not much to be honest, you know, seeing hey.


Joel (38m 11s):

What do you mean? He, Adam reached out to you. So he sourced you from where?


Stephen (38m 15s):

He sent me a message on LinkedIn.


Joel (38m 17s):

Okay. So he did a search on LinkedIn.


Stephen (38m 19s):

You'd have to ask him about what that process was.


Joel (38m 21s):

So an InMail from LinkedIn. Hey, I like your look. I like what you got going on and okay. Take it from there.


Chad (38m 26s):

I like your style kid.


Stephen (38m 28s):

So he just sent me and it was, you know, it was four or five sentences. Wasn't anything huge was a bit about hey we've got big plans. If you want to chat with them, feel free. So I reached out to him.


Joel (38m 43s):

And you were at the Distillery at the time?


Stephen (38m 45s):

Not at Distillery, I was a recruitment at that time.


Joel (38m 47s):

At a pretty cool job.


Stephen (38m 48s):

No, the distillery thing we'll get to, but that was a part-time thing while doing recruitment got so no, he reached out to me, gave me a little bit of a scenario I called them off the back of that. We spoke, I had to say to pretty quickly that I like this guy, you know, I like the direction. He was very honest with me about the direction the company was going in, what they wanted to do. And he just was like, Hey, you know, if you want to chat with the hiring manager for this post, you'll feel free to chat with them. I'll get them to reach out to you. Would you like to set that up? I did. Three conversations, his being the first two more conversations after that they offered badge open.


Stephen (39m 29s):

That was it like,


Chad (39m 30s):

But CandidateID in its barest beautiful form let's say, does that without like the human interaction, if you know the type of conversation you want to start with the type of individual, right? You can do that at scale. Right. So Adam did that because he knows how to market. He knows how to, I mean, if somebody is going to interact, he knows what he's looking for. Right. But you can actually do the same thing through automation. Can you not?


Stephen (39m 53s):

Absolutely. He could have asked me pretty much everything.


Chad (39m 56s):

Yeah.


Stephen (39m 57s):

You know, I say it from probably some of the personal things that we shared with each other in terms of interests and bits like that, you know, but he could have asked me everything, job qualification wise in an automated process.


Chad (40m 13s):

Your tartan before you actually.


Stephen (40m 15s):

That's the one thing we do in Scotland. We have the kneel down before the king in this sense, which was Adam Gordon. So, and submit the Tarton.


Joel (40m 27s):

You will never take our freedom! A lot of companies hear what you're talking about, have customized messages on multiple platforms, actually write content, actually create content, whether that's video, images, et cetera. And they're thinking, are you fucking kidding me? I barely have time to keep my head above water. And now I have to make custom marketing messages for different mediums. What do you tell the company that says I don't have the resources? Is it just focus on one or two things and don't worry about all the other or is our different solution that you recommend.


Stephen (40m 57s):

Yeah. So without being like the guy that's come on this podcast and been really blunt about everything. The reality is if you don't have time for that, people won't have time for you. So you have to make time for it.


Joel (41m 8s):

Damn.


Chad (41m 8s):

There it is. Right. He just dropped the fucking mic.


Joel (41m 11s):

He dropped the fucking mic.


Chad (41m 12s):

He dropped the mic without dropping a mic.


Joel (41m 14s):

If you don't have time.


Stephen (41m 15s):

Don't have time for that. People don't have time for you.


Chad (41m 18s):

I love the Scots, the Scots have that. I mean, they got their like shit down there like blunt. They don't know, they know their peat levels, all that stuff,


Joel (41m 25s):

You know, level.


Stephen (41m 26s):

Well, the 80/50 answer to what you're seeing the, you know, the sprinkle, some glitter on it would be focused on your strengths, you know, would be pick those core areas, make sure that you've got those right and then, you know, pick up the human element after that. But you need to adapt. You need to change. You need to make time. And actually quite a lot people that say, they don't have time could, if they just rechecked their time correctly.


Joel (41m 54s):

You mentioned automation this is your sweet spot. Is part of the answer automation can help you look bigger than you really are? And whether that's social media posts or like how do you automate some of this stuff and still achieve customization and personalization? Or is it impossible?


Stephen (42m 7s):

No, I think that any company can look better than they are quote unquote, I mean, CandidateID prime example, you know, you would have never thought that was 20 people when in Glasgow.


Joel (42m 19s):

True that.


Stephen (42m 19s):

When, you know, got Adam and Scott bounced about in kilts every which location that they can. You know, but I think that if you use it correctly and if you facilitate it correctly, then absolutely your presence will grow. And you know, those are those lots of examples of that in terms of, you know, smaller companies, you know, within recruitment or within, you know, technology that aim to look bigger than they are. They do it successfully, you know, before you realize it is one guy behind the desk, pushing some buttons. So


Joel (42m 50s):

Steve, one guy who doesn't have to look bigger than he is, we appreciate you coming on the show.


Chad (42m 55s):

He's a table talker.


Joel (42m 56s):

Please tell your boss, hello for us. And thank him for being too big for this conference. Being too important for us, for those that want to know more about you or CandidateID, where do you send them?


Stephen (43m 9s):

So CandidateID is now an iCIMS company and you would head to their websites and their pages to learn more about us. You can also search CandidateID an iCIMS company and my name is Stephen McGrath. I'm a solutions consultant. You can find me anywhere, tossing cables in distilleries or on social media as well, if you want.


Joel (43m 30s):

Let's get some scotch, we out.


Chad (43m 32s):

We out. All right. So that was fun. Right?


Joel (43m 34s):

How many drinks were we in by that interview? It was probably quite a few.


Chad (43m 45s):

We had at least six Belgian beers a piece by then. And just for the record, Lieven all of the beers that were in that fridge were done.


Lieven (43m 59s):

I know


Joel (44m 1s):

86 PBRs by the time lunch, lunch rolled around, speaking of lunch, guys, I'm hungry. Let's wrap this baby up. Another one in the book