Money Can’t Buy Me Love

Your CEO thinks everyone's thrilled to be here. Your employees are mentally on a beach in Portugal. 🏖️

In this episode, Dr. Beth Linderbaum joins The Chad & Cheese Podcast to drop a reality check harder than a Friday morning HR memo. Turns out, ping pong tables and direct deposits aren’t enough to make people actually want to stay. 😬

We’re talking real engagement—like actually caring about the job—and spoiler alert: it’s not about the money. It’s about fit, growth, and not having a boss who thinks Slack messages count as mentorship. Oh, and yes, Gen Z does want feedback faster than you can say “OK Boomer.”

Also: why your fancy AI might be better at building human connection than your VP of People.

💸 Forget the cash. You want loyalty? Try career paths and leaders who don’t suck.

PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION

Joel (00:34.587)

Yeah, this is the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Cheeseman. Joined as always, writing shotgun is Chad Sowash, and we are excited to welcome Dr. Beth. Work doesn't have to crush your soul, Lenderbomb. She's an SVP at Wright Management. Beth, welcome to HR's Most Dangerous Podcast.

Chad (00:40.216)

Hello.

Chad (00:50.828)

Yes!

Beth Linderbaum (00:56.943)

so happy to be here with my fellow former Ohioans. Yeah, that's right.

Chad (01:00.782)

Buck eyes, baby, buck eyes. Always a buck eye, always especially.

Joel (01:01.921)

Buckeyes, baby. And a big fan. She wanted a middle name, just like we do on the weekly show. That's major props. If this were Firing Squad, you'd automatically get a rousing applause, unfortunately not. So we know a little bit about you. Our listeners probably do not. Give them the 411 on Beth.

Beth Linderbaum (01:07.789)

I did, I won in one.

Chad (01:11.694)

That is mage prop. Yeah.

We done. Yeah. Too easy. Too easy.

Beth Linderbaum (01:25.037)

Sure. Beth Lenderbaum, I lead North America Delivery for Right Management. And as you said, my middle name is work doesn't have to crush your soul. I really believe in building cultures that are soul nourishing instead of soul crushing and helping our clients do the same. just to be a little punny to start us at right, we do believe there is a right way to do things. And we think the right way is

See I got a sound effect. Look at that. The right way is... No, no. They're all good and surprising. I like that they're sometimes unexpected. yeah. Good, good. I love it. So we believe there's a right way to do things and it's career focused and human centric.

Joel (01:55.563)

Woohoo! Do you have a favorite? Sorry.

Chad (02:03.576)

with Stephen.

Joel (02:06.181)

All right, we'll pull some in here in this interview for you, just for you, just for you, keep going.

Joel (02:17.465)

And a great URL, write.com. I mean, come on, come on. Has it always been that? Has it always been that?

Beth Linderbaum (02:20.813)

Yeah, R-I-G-H-T. It has a, it's funny because apparently our founders, their name spelled left L-E-F-T and their wives said, you can't be left consulting. You have to be right consulting. So that was, that's a story from the archives for you. Yeah.

Chad (02:21.538)

No, you can't beat that.

Joel (02:40.113)

Thank God for wives.

Chad (02:40.632)

Well, and I got to say, she's doing it right. She's got a microphone. She sounds good. mean, usually we do these things and we have to go through at least 10 minutes with a startup CEO out of Silicon Valley for God's sake. So you should have all the gear and sound good and stuff. You're right on it. The bomb, lender bomb. Yeah.

Joel (02:57.403)

Yeah, her other middle name is not fucking around. Not fucking around. like it.

Beth Linderbaum (02:57.766)

good.

Beth Linderbaum (03:02.155)

Well, until my kid, he's eyeing my microphone. He thinks it's going to be perfect for his gaming setup. So I've been protecting it.

Chad (03:09.432)

Yeah. Tell him he just needs a headset. He doesn't need, he doesn't need that kind of equipment. so what are we talking about here today? We're talking about money can't buy you love slash loyalty, right? You did some, you did some, you did some research.

Joel (03:10.065)

you

Beth Linderbaum (03:13.645)

No.

Joel (03:20.197)

Yeah. Why fit and development are the keys to employee retention. It's a long title, but it says a lot.

Beth Linderbaum (03:21.356)

That's right.

Chad (03:28.568)

So why the research was, did you see a need? Did you see a gap where their company's coming to you talking about loyalty? Obviously we see that, you know, back when, you know, at least when Joel and I were growing up, I don't think you're as old as we are. you know, we had grandpa's debt, they stayed, stayed 40 years at a place. Loyalty was key, right? That doesn't exist today. None of that stuff exists today. So.

Did companies come to you and say, how do we actually get more loyalty back, retention back? How did, what is the genesis of this?

Beth Linderbaum (04:02.753)

Yeah. Well, actually part of this comes from our history in the outplacement business. Because that was how we started as an organization, it gave us a lot of insight into careers. So we have over 45 years experience in supporting people in career mobility and career transition. And we realized that this isn't something you should wait until someone leaves the organization to do. And so we really have a firm

firm belief that careers are important and we knew things intuitively, but we said we need to start putting numbers and research behind our point of view. And so that's really what was the spark of the research. And I think it's very timely in terms of, I think the transformation that we're seeing in workplaces today to be able to provide these insights and say what truly does drive employee engagement.

And spoiler alert, what we found is that organizations and leaders are definitely out of touch.

Chad (05:02.696)

that's a big surprise. Come on. Are you saying, are you saying, are you saying Jamie diamond doesn't know what's going on? I think that's what she's saying, Joel. think she's saying Jamie diamond doesn't know what's going on. So is that the biggest, mean, so loyalty connected to leaders not really being connected is what it sounds like, to, the needs of their employees. What are those needs? And apparently it's not, it's, it's not money.

Joel (05:02.809)

No.

Beth Linderbaum (05:04.938)

hahahaha

Chad (05:32.076)

Or maybe it is. What are those needs?

Beth Linderbaum (05:33.247)

Yeah. Well, first, let me talk a little bit about what we're calling the engagement illusion. Because I think it's important to talk about that disconnect. So when we asked leaders, how engaged are your employees, 83 % of leaders said, my employees are fully engaged. They're just delighted to come to work. They love being here. It's amazing. Yes, that would be another term for it.

Chad (05:57.09)

They're delusional.

Beth Linderbaum (06:00.781)

When we asked employees the same question, 48 % of them reported being fully engaged. And so this was kind of the start of the disconnect. And I think if you see other research being posted right now, you can see engagement is at an all time low. There's lots of headlines around this disconnect happening. And so for us, we're not in this great resignation anymore. We're in this engagement illusion or delusional leaders, as you're saying.

We see leaders and organizations being out of touch. And so that really leads us into what is important to employees. once again, and I'll get into this a little bit, but the leaders are once again out of touch. But first, let me tell you what employees say is important to them when it comes to their engagement. So when we modeled this out,

Chad (06:49.838)

Hmm?

Beth Linderbaum (06:53.023)

about a third of the variance in engagement was accounted for fit with the organization. So when we defined fit as like, is this a place that aligns to my values? Do I believe in this company's strategy? Do I get along and can I get along with these people who work here? So it's really fit with the team, fit with the organization. So that was the biggest driver. The second biggest driver was career.

And we define career as meaning and purpose. So can I feel successful at work? Yes, promotion was one piece of that, but it wasn't the full definition. Can I be successful? Can I do meaningful work? Can I feel purposeful? And are there opportunities for advancement? So all of those things are how we define career. And then the third most important thing was training and development. So I still haven't gotten to money, if you notice.

Chad (07:46.862)

Mm-hmm.

Joel (07:47.025)

Mm-hmm.

Beth Linderbaum (07:47.741)

Number four was pay. And then the fifth was logistics. But pay and logistics were only about less than 20 % of the variance in the model.

Chad (07:58.68)

So what roles were these? Because for many roles, obviously, as we take a look at, obviously CEOs, they've had compensation hikes and it's just skyrocketed. Middle level and middle class has been shrinking. And then we've got, you know, that below that middle class line where wages, many cases aren't actually hitting living wages. So who, who did you, who did you talk to here?

Joel (07:58.865)

So there's.

Beth Linderbaum (08:01.941)

Yeah.

Beth Linderbaum (08:22.593)

Yeah. Yeah, I'm definitely not salespeople. It was a white collar population. So I think that is a call out because we know if your basic needs are not being met, of course, money and benefits are going to be really important. But once you've had that baseline need being met, really, it's not that that's going to drive

Joel (08:25.438)

All salespeople, all salespeople obviously. All salespeople.

Chad (08:28.163)

Yeah

Beth Linderbaum (08:50.015)

engagement, satisfaction, happiness at work. And so, yeah, and well, if I could throw back to some of my grad school days, you know, there's all those research studies that show like, you know, if you win the lottery, will you be happy at first? Absolutely. But then your happiness goes back to that baseline level. So this isn't the only research that's saying money isn't the end all be all of happiness. But I think it is important to call out that this is a white collar population.

Joel (09:17.361)

So white collar population, this sounds like a millennial thing. This sounds like a lot of kids don't care about money with old people saying everyone's happy because we're paying. Like who, is this a generational issue? Are older people more into money and the younger folks want, you know, all that other stuff, the fluffy stuff? Talk to me about the generational gaps.

Beth Linderbaum (09:30.753)

Yeah.

Beth Linderbaum (09:39.039)

Yeah, I will. I always struggle with the generation stuff because I feel like we're making sweeping generalizations. So we actually didn't include generation, but we did include stage of career because I think there is probably more meaningful differences in stage of career. And what was interesting, and stage of career will probably loosely map to some of the generations in the workforce right now. So for early career individuals, it still was fit.

career and training and development that were top three, but actually money was higher in importance to them than later stage career. And I could kind of relate to this because I was in grad school once, I ate ramen noodles. My first paycheck, that was delightful. I can go out to dinner, I can afford to do things. So I think early career, we did see a little bit higher on money, but it was still in the bottom.

Chad (10:28.984)

Hahaha

Beth Linderbaum (10:36.247)

bottom of the model in terms of the variance accounted for.

Chad (10:39.808)

It's interesting. You talk about fit, right? And then Joel was just talking about generations. We're, we're Xers. We grew up, we were raised by boomers. Boomers were raised by the greatest generation. Right? So it had nothing to do with, you happy? Had nothing to do with fit. It had to do with Gordon Gekko. Greed is good. Go get your money. Right? So it's interesting.

It's interesting that it seems like it's actually moving and we see this like in different countries. like Denmark and Sweden, more happy. They're a much happier nation. Now the GDP is not incredibly high, but it doesn't matter because they're all happy over there. Where we're focused on GDP and money and not as much happiness. So are we starting to tip the balance to start caring about happiness?

Beth Linderbaum (11:35.989)

I think we should be, but I would say I don't know if we are. That's why I think this research is provocative. Because when we asked leaders the same, like what drives engagement, actually they got it right in terms of fit. They said, yes, fit is such an important driver, but they thought number two was money and benefits. So I think it's one of the things where, I have a background in IO psychology.

Chad (11:46.755)

Mm-hmm.

Beth Linderbaum (12:05.333)

I have a lot of training on personality theory, what motivates human behavior. And it's always amazing to me that I show up to corporate America and what we're doing is often the opposite of what inspires performance. And often the things that inspire motivation and performance are also the things that make you happier in life, right? Feeling connected to your work, feeling purposeful, feeling values alignment in what you're doing. So I think it...

Joel (12:26.598)

Mm-hmm.

Beth Linderbaum (12:33.557)

I would say we are not focused on the right things and hopefully we start having a conversation about this so we can think differently about it.

Joel (12:43.321)

So Beth, I know you're an Akron and a lot of things, a lot of...

Stereotypes around the area say that things are bad. I'm here to tell you if you think that things are kind of bad all over the place. We just had a pandemic not so long ago. We had a lot of political geopolitical issues. How much of world turmoil goes into people's attitudes changing with, know what, life is short. What's important. Where should I be spending my time? It's not all about the dollars. How much has the world in the last five years?

change people's attitudes in the workplace.

Beth Linderbaum (13:21.714)

I think a lot and actually going back to what Chad was sharing.

So part of the reason there's been a shift, and I remember I took a whole summer course on this when I was in grad school, part of the reason in the shift of loyalty from I have an employer for life to what our generation and future generations have moved to is that many of us watched our Boombird parents get laid off, right? We watch them get mistreated. We watch their pensions get impacted.

Chad (13:41.72)

Hmm?

Chad (13:53.614)

Mm-hmm.

Beth Linderbaum (13:54.505)

as a result of those impacts, it changed our psychological contract with our employer and how we think about it. And so now there's a little bit of more of what's in it for me. And I do feel like we're kind of in another like workers revolution in terms of, okay, like we want higher standards. We want something more out of our employer. And I truly believe that employers who are up to meet that calling are gonna be the ones that

advance and accelerate in the world as we move forward.

Chad (14:28.942)

I think it's interesting because as we talk about the boomers and having 40 years with the company and whatnot, back then before trickle down economics, companies would put money into training and development because it was part of, there were different tax schemes there, but it was also good because you were developing your own workforce, right? To be able to move them up the ranks or move them laterally, whatever it is. And we've lost...

Beth Linderbaum (14:37.186)

Yeah.

Beth Linderbaum (14:52.811)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (14:58.324)

That that whole structure within most organizations isn't as robust or, is totally absent compared to what was there in the seventies and eighties and then started to be dismantled in the nineties and moving forward. So this to me just makes sense, but the United States is focused on money. It is, I mean, it just who we are, right? Capitalism, capitalism, capitalism. It's never enough.

Profits need to be bigger, et cetera, et cetera, right? How do we move past that thought process and help companies understand that if you have happier employees, you have more productive employees. If you have more productive employees, they obviously produce more, which is good for your bottom line. They stay longer, which is good for your bottom line. How do we get to that point? What needs to happen?

Beth Linderbaum (15:57.001)

It's sad because we've taken away a lot of the leadership development programs that help prepare leaders to be better. I was actually with a client yesterday and they said, we have like incompetent leaders leading incompetent leaders because we've gotten rid of all of these programs. Yeah. Yes. And by the time they get promoted, when they finally figure out what they're doing in one role, they get promoted and you backfill it. And so I think that training gap is huge and we're going to pay the

Chad (16:13.198)

Yeah

Beth Linderbaum (16:25.943)

price of that. And yeah, I think we are. And I think the other thing that I see a lot of is short term thinking, like first order thinking versus second and third order thinking. It kind of drives me nuts because it all starts at the top, right? Boards want shareholder returns. So there's kind of this hierarchy of pushing for profits and pushing for immediate results.

Chad (16:28.238)

think we are.

Beth Linderbaum (16:53.805)

But that's not necessarily what is going to drive results for the long term. And so I feel like, yeah, it's a little bit dire, but this is why I actually take a lot of joy in the work that we do, because I feel like we're kind of a force against that trying to be, sometimes I feel counterculture in the world we live in, but really trying to like push the envelope and develop leaders in a way where they can go out and make a difference and be the voice of,

Chad (16:58.478)

Mm-hmm.

Beth Linderbaum (17:22.591)

connecting people and seeing how to truly motivate people through purpose and meaning. But yeah, I yeah.

Joel (17:27.985)

Going back to the world we live in, like you said, I to get your take on the impact of the return to office phenomenon, you know, work from home, I'm guessing has a good positive effect on people's happiness in the workplace. We're also seeing diversity, equity and inclusion efforts going by the wayside. I have to assume that that is a detriment to

Beth Linderbaum (17:38.636)

Mm-hmm.

Joel (17:55.525)

people being happy, but I want to know your thoughts and any studies that you guys have seen.

Beth Linderbaum (18:00.257)

Yeah. Well, I will say, I think the work from home debate is the wrong discussion. Like we are wasting breath. Organizations, HR, senior leadership, like they keep talking about something that no, it's just, it's wasted breath. So actually the logistics, where I work, when I work, how I work was the lowest driver of engagement. we're.

spending hours and days debating about return to office when we would be better off spending that time talking about are we hiring leaders that fit? Are we giving them meaningful work? So I feel like there's a real missed opportunity there. I'm kind of like when I hear leaders talking about it, it drives me nuts. But we also know the leaders who are most passionate about often are the ones that are not about empowerment.

there may be more about control, right? And so they're not going to be the ones talking about how do we provide meaning and purpose to our employees. So yeah, I'm kind of over the work from home debate.

Chad (18:55.075)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (19:01.218)

So do.

Do we have to wait for these boomers to die for this to actually start to take hold? Because what it seems like we're seeing is we're seeing a bunch of ill-equipped leaders. They haven't gone in, in most cases it's not their fault. They haven't been pushed through learning development like they should, right? Like every organization should. And so now they're just doing what they know best and that's try to, try to keep a hold of.

Beth Linderbaum (19:09.185)

Ugh.

Chad (19:33.282)

the control and they feel like they're losing control as people are leaving. Are we just going to have to wait until these boomers who know one way how to do things and that's the, obviously the iron fist to die out before we can actually start to be more happy in the workplace.

Beth Linderbaum (19:52.301)

I don't know about that, although my kid was calculating the age of some senior leaders in the world and saying, how long do we have to live through this? I'm like, my God, that's horrible. Even kids are thinking about this. But another way path forward is to look at leadership competencies differently and also to look at DEIB because you know who are more empathetic leaders?

Joel (19:55.345)

So dark.

Chad (19:58.958)

Huh? See? Even kids are thinking about this shit.

Beth Linderbaum (20:18.445)

And it's proven by research, it's women. Maybe we should promote more women because it's not DEI, it's not affirmative action if they're more capable at the job, right? Like they actually are more capable at the job. So I think maybe there is a little bit of an answer on not letting go of making sure we are driving diversity and supporting diversity at the top in leadership roles.

Joel (20:46.245)

You get Gen X next everybody. So be careful what you wish for all the boomers dying out. I know, but you get us next. Technology is always the solution to everything these days. We've got a problem, let's buy some software that'll fix it. We've seen solutions like 15.5, tons of engagement platforms to help people feel good.

Chad (20:50.754)

We're a very, very small cohort though, that's the thing.

Joel (21:11.885)

About their jobs is software solving some of these problems, making it worse, making no difference at all. What's your take?

Beth Linderbaum (21:19.275)

Yeah, actually, I appreciate that as part of the right way, we've started to develop a point of view around this. it's really, we believe technology has an important role, but that role should be creating deeper human connection. And it really can't do that as a standalone, right? It has to be an enabler. Actually, I have a Northeast Ohio Talent Management Roundtable where we were talking about how everyone is using AI.

Chad (21:37.175)

Mm-hmm.

Beth Linderbaum (21:46.845)

one of the women in that had gone to a conference and she said, it's not AI that's going to replace humans. It's humans that use AI that will replace humans that don't use AI. And I think that's a great take on where we're heading.

Joel (22:03.227)

Sounds like something on our show that you might have heard at some point.

Chad (22:03.416)

Do you? Yeah, and we're hearing that a lot and we're hearing that a lot. I think I think the the thing for us and I think we've actually we talked about, I think it's coaching hub or coach hub, something like that, where it is almost like your assistant and it gives you kind of like some some coaching options on your journey to leadership, right? To be able to get there and do it on a daily basis as opposed to just something.

Beth Linderbaum (22:25.517)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (22:31.176)

that you never go through, which is pretty much what we do today, trial by fire, or actually going to a school. Do you see more of those platforms taking hold where we have assistants that are just trying to guide us through being a better leader?

Beth Linderbaum (22:44.685)

Yeah, so my husband and I have talked a lot about this actually and I think some of that already exists. Like you can go into co-pilot. I've asked it for leadership advice. It gives pretty good leadership advice. My husband asked it. He's just stepped in a new management role and he's like, how do I support a team who is under resourced and we need to do these things? He asked it the questions and read back to me what it said. I'm like, that's great leadership advice.

I know Marshall Goldsmith has a free platform that you can try. So I think there are ways that it's gonna make us more effective. I was a little jealous. said he had a, he met a colleague who their company had an AI platform that if you needed to figure out how to do something at your company, it told you how to do it. Like it would read all the processes and manuals of the company. I'm like, my God, that's amazing, right? Cause if you work for a big corporation,

figuring out how to get things done sometimes is really hard. So I think those things are going to be great, but it's not going to replace the, if we need to raise our complexity as humans to deal with the complexity that we face, AI isn't going to do that. That's where human interaction, where coaching in particular, I have such a passion for coaching because coaching is a tool where you can create a whole new worldviews for yourself.

Chad (23:43.649)

yeah.

Beth Linderbaum (24:08.695)

That's not something AI can help you with. Having those deep changes, I think you really need someone to sit alongside with you and witness your change and be part of your change, not a computer.

Joel (24:22.981)

Wow. You and your, you and your husband have some interesting pillow talk. If that's what you're talking about with your husband. I want to talk about, the process before the interview, the higher even starts. We're seeing a lot of data that data that says you got to have the salary range in your job postings. If you have a good salary range, people are going to apply more. Right. So that, that indicates that money does matter.

At least initially and some interviews you don't even talk about money until further in the process of the interview. So my question is, is there a disconnect between maybe what people think they want in a job versus when they actually get into it and realize, this isn't just about money. I really hate my boss and I hate the culture and, and should job seekers be thinking about the interview process differently as opposed to just how much am going to get paid?

Chad (25:09.686)

Eat this place.

Beth Linderbaum (25:15.339)

Yeah, I think sometimes we do underestimate that. We think, if I get paid a lot of money, there's a lot of jobs I could do until you do those jobs and realize there's no amount of money that would make you want to do that job. So in the research at one point, we did uncover like a little bit of that disconnect.

It wasn't something we wrote up, but there was a little nuance there of like, wow, people might not always know the difference between when they're out searching versus what genuinely will make them happy. But I think people are learning. We've had candidates come through our transition program. I remember one in particular, he was a senior executive and he was wanting to do something more meaningful and purposeful.

but he landed another executive job and he went in there and he was like, no, I'm leaving. He realized pretty quickly, I just signed up to do the same thing that I was trying to get away from. And so he made a real career shift and went and worked with a startup that has much more meaning and purpose. Yeah.

Chad (26:19.182)

That's what we're taught what success is though, right? And it was funny because I remember starting a sales gig and we had another guy that was selling right beside me and he, his background was he was a VP at AT &T. And I asked him, I'm like, what the hell are you doing here? You're doing the same work that I'm doing as, you know, an early 20 year old. And he's like, I need, I need to get away. I made my money.

I needed to be an individual contributor, but that was so foreign to me. And the way that you think, the way that we were taught, that you start at the bottom, you finish at the top, and then you retire on a private island, which nobody can do anymore, and just do your thing, right? So it's interesting when that's beat into your brain of this is what a career path looks like, it's really hard to kind of deviate, isn't it?

Beth Linderbaum (27:14.965)

It is, it is. And well, back to the career research, one of the things that we found was that late stage career fit came back out as the number one driver where mid-career career factors were more important, like purpose, meaning, and promotion opportunities. Mid-career, that was more important. Late career, we're back to, no, I just want something that's a good fit. You know, like I'm here for my values. I'm here for.

you know, I just want to do something that I want to do, right? yeah. Yeah.

Chad (27:49.326)

want to be able to take a nap when I want to take a nap and walk the dogs when I want to walk the dogs and I'll get on a call when I need to.

Beth Linderbaum (27:55.597)

Well, guys have made a different career path choice, really, right? Yeah. So what was that about for the two of you?

Joel (27:55.728)

life.

Chad (27:58.466)

Yeah. Yeah.

Joel (28:01.457)

We're doing the interview, Dr. Beth. Don't put us on the couch. Don't put us on the couch.

Chad (28:04.782)

you put that cheese, put Cheeseman on the couch. He needs it. Go ahead. She's going to answer the question.

Joel (28:10.353)

If there's not a burrito bowl involved, I'm not interested. is Dr. Beth Linderbaum, everybody. All right. All right, Linda or sorry, Beth, where can they download the report? Learn more about you connect to a right.com.

Beth Linderbaum (28:26.143)

Yeah. So yeah, if you want to connect with me, I'm on LinkedIn. So just find me on LinkedIn, Beth Linderbaum, and you can download all of our research at our ight.com, right.com. Just go there and download. We have three chapters of the research. And actually this year we're going to be doing a part two.

Chad (28:38.318)

Too easy.

Beth Linderbaum (28:46.989)

And we're going into taking it global. So we'll see if there's global differences in what drives engagement and how connected or disconnected leaders are. Yeah. Ooh, I'll come back. Can I come back?

Joel (28:55.727)

Are you teasing us? Are you teasing us, Dr. Beth?

Chad (28:57.1)

No, yes. I want to. Yes, of course. Yes. We want to know how the rest of the world shakes down.

Joel (29:02.577)

Shut.

Joel (29:06.011)

That's right. Chad, that is another one in the can. We out.

Beth Linderbaum (29:06.123)

Yeah.

Chad (29:09.547)

We out.