Every company is looking to discover rare breeds, whether they be in the company already, or roaming the pastures of commerce externally. But the HOW tends to be elusive. That's why Chad & Cheese brings Rare Breed author Sunny Bonnell on the podcast to dive into what companies can do post-pandemic to retain and attract the kind of talent that can take an organization to new heights.
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Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.
Oh yeah. You know what time it is?
What's up everybody? This is your favorite podcast on your cohost Joel Cheeseman joined as always by my favorite person, at least for the next hour, Chad Sowash. This is the Chad and Cheese podcast. Today We are happy to welcome Sunny Bonnell to the show. She is the chief vision officer. Yeah, that sounds impressive. She's also a best-selling author of the book, Rare Breed: A Guide to Success for the Defiant, Dangerous, and Different. She's a keynote speaker and all kinds of other shit. Sunny, welcome to the show.
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me and what a wonderful introduction!
You betcha so for listeners, what did I miss in the intro that we should know about you?
Sunny (1m 2s):
I'm a musician. I grew up on gospel and bluegrass and started playing when I was just about eight years old and was a professional musician by the time I was 12 years old and started playing out in clubs and venues as a teenager and well into my early adulthood. Enrolled in college and ended up dropping out of college to launch a branding agency, threw all my hopes and dreams away of being a profound musician and double down on becoming a brand strategist, brand and culture and leadership expert.
Joel (1m 36s):
Can you play the banjo, Sunny? Can you play Deliverance?
Chad (1m 43s):
Oh, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait, you, you dropped out of college.
Sunny (1m 47s):
Chad (1m 47s):
You dropped out of college. You were already an artist for goodness sakes and you thought branding was going to be easier in this mad men world? Is that what I'm hearing?
Sunny (1m 58s):
A little bit. I think that.
Chad (1m 60s):
Sunny (1m 60s):
You know, I, so, so back up a minute and I'm a 20 something year old female in a small South Carolina town where the majority of ad agencies are ran by the old guard.
Chad (2m 12s):
Sunny (2m 13s):
There's only a few of them at the time. And I was moonlighting just to kind of put context around this, I was moonlighting as a graphic designer for other musicians. So while I was enrolled in pre-vet, I was a theater major or philosophy major, I had my hands in a lot of different things, trying to sort of figure out where I wanted to go. And meanwhile, moonlighting as a graphic designer on the side for other musicians, including myself and was doing all of this self-taught. And of course, when you're in an industry like that are beginning to, you know, scrape the surface of an industry like that, you're paying attention to what's going on around you. And what both myself and my co-founder Ashley and I started to take note of was that there was a lot of homogenization going on and there was a lot of sort of boring work.
Sunny (3m 1s):
And we said, why don't we just do something different? And I think we set out with a bit of an audacious vision that we thought we could dismantle the conversation going on and perhaps make a dent in our small town. But what we ended up doing was launched a moonshot. You know, that obviously took us out of South Carolina into Dallas and then ultimately New York. So we were two women who were sort of up against some pretty tough odds, you know, a lot of people told us we would fail, probably almost laughed us out of town.
Joel (3m 32s):
What's the timeline on this? Just so I know.
Sunny (3m 35s):
This is 2005.
Joel (3m 36s):
Sunny (3m 36s):
And you know, when yellow page ads were still all the rage.
Chad (3m 42s):
Yes. Yes! So, you were once thrown out of a meeting because you asked if people really care if they get a free blender with a checking account? So, I mean, it was, you were starting your agency, I would assume at that time, is that correct? How did that fuel you to say those fuckers aren't going to win?
Sunny (4m 3s):
I think the amount of doubt, you know, we have a saying that that's how the rose grew from the concrete. You know, the rose grew from the concrete, be thankful for small minds. It's how ceilings are shattered and battles are won. And I think that we were so doubted, and so, you know, sort of underestimated that it made for an easy target for us to have something to focus on and say, well, surely there's another way. And so our initial business was built around, honestly, just curiosity. You know, we were going to companies and they were saying, oh, you know, we're interested in a logo. And we would say, but why, you know, why does this business matter to you? What is the purpose of this company? We were asking these sort of fundamental questions that we realized at the time was about purpose-driven branding.
Sunny (4m 49s):
And didn't realize that we were actually doing that until, you know, seeing it catch on later in the industry. I think we were actually one of the spearheads of that phrasiology, you know, of purpose-driven branding being a real thing, because we started doing that back in 2005 before purpose was really a cool conversation. So, you know, the fact that we sort of built the business around that and started to claw our way towards some sort of redemption, you know, I think it gave us a way to fight against something and fight for something at the same time. And that's what we did.
Joel (5m 19s):
So you mentioned yellow pages and classifieds at the time, but in 2005 was a really a pretty interesting, exciting time to sort of be in this. You had some voices like Seth Godin, for example, people preaching, you know, zig when everyone else is zagging social media, sort of the birth of that was around the same time, web 2.0, if you will. If you could sort of quickly talk about what life in your business look like 2005 and maybe how it's up to 2019, a quick summary of like the business and how it's changed in that 15 years.
Sunny (5m 53s):
Well, I think that the first few years were very difficult, you know, in terms of, we were very broke, we didn't have money, we didn't have investors, we didn't have financial support. And we were trying to make a name for ourselves in a very small town that didn't really understand us. So, you know, the first few years of running the company were very hard. So you mentioned yellow page ads, and there were some, some innovation going on around that time. So actually what started to take place was direct mailers.
Chad (6m 23s):
Sunny (6m 24s):
Joel (6m 24s):
Not direct email? You said direct mailers?
Sunny (6m 25s):
Direct mailers. And what was really interesting was, you know, we were probably a year or two into business, probably a few weeks within closing our doors, we were not able to make ends meet. And we had just a little bit of cash left in the bank. And we created, we had this idea where we created this garbage can and when you pulled the lid out, it was literally dye cut and fluted. We spent every dime that we had on it. Bought a list of people that were local businesses and regional businesses and we were in this tiny little warehouse in what you would call an incredibly shady part of town. And we spent every dime we had on it, bought this list, printed this mailer.
Sunny (7m 5s):
And when you pulled out the lid, all it said was trash the ordinary. And then it just had our website and our phone number on it. And back then, you know, things were where people would actually show up to your office. You know, they wouldn't call, they would just actually come knocking on the door. And what was so fascinating about that was we mailed it out to a few thousand businesses. And within 24 hours, not only was our phone ringing, but we had people showing up at the door with the mailer in their hands. And they were like, who are you?
Chad (7m 31s):
Here's the thing I want to dive into many companies that we've talked to over the years, look in the mirror and say that we're not Coke. We're not the LA Lakers, not Apple or Google. Your first client from that trashcan was a dentist?
Sunny (7m 48s):
Chad (7m 48s):
A fuckin dentist. Right?
Sunny (7m 50s):
A fluent one at that, yeah.
Chad (7m 52s):
So how did the dentist find a reason? Instead of an excuse and all you companies out there listen very deeply please.
Joel (7m 59s):
And was he on MySpace at the time?
Sunny (8m 4s):
No, but we were. No, I think what was interesting about that was he actually showed up, he was our very first paying client. He showed up and he had the mailer, him and his wife, they were family owned business. And he said, I'm so tired of the way that dentists and dental offices brand themselves. At the time a lot of, and I think that still happens today, where a lot of people in those industries, which have not really been disrupted, I mean, I think they've become a little bit more disrupted, but you know, back then, like you would go to a template place and you would, you would get a boiler plate website with you know, an appointment setter and some generic language and some big photos.
Sunny (8m 44s):
And that was your brand. And he came to us and he said, I hate every bit of that. And he said, I really want to do something extraordinary. And he said, I just want to defy the odds. I want to think, you know, defy the odds. I want to think outside the box, I want to do something that no one else is doing. And so he hired us on the spot. It was so inexpensive, I think it was like a few hundred dollars. But we went in and we not only branded his space, but we even thought through the way that he could entertain his patients. So in other words, like thinking about TVs and sort of Luxe atmosphere and thinking about how brand was reflected, we did all of the signage and it really was the thing that sort of put us on the map because then word got around.
Sunny (9m 28s):
And again, this is just a local market, right? We're just starting to sort of, people are catching wind of us. And then we started having more people saying, Hey, can you disrupt this industry? So we started disrupting industries that were typically very generic or very unordinary like law, audiology, dentists, you know, things that were construction, real estate, things that were not at the time, very innovative. And we were disrupting those categories left and right, and became known for that very early on. And that's ultimately what kept the lights on a little bit longer and kept pushing us. And then we also entered in another big pivotal moment for us was in 2007 when we entered into a women's business conference, a business women's competition, where we had to go before a panel of esteemed women entrepreneurs who were some of the best in the industry and pitch our business on stage in front of thousands of people in front of media and press and everything else.
Sunny (10m 23s):
The funny thing was we were the two youngest women there, in the practice round, and we ended up freezing, couldn't remember the name of the company, what we did, how much revenue, we didn't have any revenue and completely bombed. And the one of the judges at the time, like just filleted us. Like she was like, you don't belong here. You don't know your business. You don't know what you, you're not in the right setting. Come back when you've got this together. And we were just almost going to leave and ended up rewriting the pitch on a napkin in the bar that same night and came back the next morning and got a standing ovation. And won the whole thing!
Joel (10m 57s):
Is a national competition or local?
Sunny (11m 0s):
It was national. There were people from all over the country that had come in and had been, you know, people that had been in business and were, you know, 90 million in revenue. You know, I mean, I think we had just a few thousand dollars in our bank account at that point. But what you won was a line of credit from American Express. You got an IT package, like you got all this media and press. And that also set us off in the direction of these two young women kind of rogue coming in and sort of putting these people on their ear. And I think that was a sort of these little pivotal moments that we were sort of taking charge and leading the conversation in new ways, I think was the thing that started to move us forward.
Chad (11m 38s):
That was really a genius strategy though, because you came in and you really on purpose gave them a bad show and then you came back and blew it out of the water. Come on. That was the strategy, right?
Sunny (11m 50s):
I'd like to say it was, but it wasn't, we just completely froze.
Joel (11m 55s):
These are underdog stories. When did you become a sort of the heavyweight champion? What was the turning point of that?
Sunny (12m 1s):
There were a lot of little moves that were taking place, you know, a lot of times when we could have taken the punch or thrown the knockout punch, and I think we were taking the punches, but also coming back and counterpunching, and not giving up and not quitting. And I think that tenacity and that sort of audacity of wanting to do things differently and not be afraid of that and really leaning into who we are was I think a very pivotal change in ourselves and in our business. And, you know, obviously it became the name of our book, which went on to become a best seller. And then obviously has now become the thesis of the workshops that we're doing and the shows that we're leading. And those are a little micro moments that happen along the way that I think make or break you and define you.
Sunny (12m 42s):
And those certainly we had certainly many of those opportunities where we could have folded like lawn chairs or we could get back up and grab that mic and say like, no, you're wrong about us. And that's kind of, I think where strength comes from is in those moments where people doubt you and you prove them wrong.
Joel (13m 1s):
So when did employment or hiring or workplace branding come into play.
Sunny (13m 8s):
So that's probably happened in the last couple of years. So we wrote some, just kind of dialing it back again to connect the concept of Rare Breed. So Rare Breed was given to us by my dad. So we were a few years into business, hit a low point, thinking about quitting around that 2007 time period. And, you know, we were just like, we just do not fit. You know, we're like a square peg in a round hole or misfit. We're an outlier. Nobody wants us to succeed. We just had this sort of self doubt going on. And it wasn't just our own sort of negative talk. It was the talk going on around us. You know, we had been sabotaged by other businesses and, you know, people were trying to run us out of town and that's the truth. And, you know, we just hit a really low point.
Sunny (13m 49s):
We kept getting fired for the same reasons we were hired and we couldn't understand why that kept happening. So we had this sort of pivotal conversation with my dad where we said, you know, you just feel like quitting. And he said, well, you two are a Rare Breed. He said, of course not everybody's going to understand you. Of course not everybody's going to get you. In fact, some people may hate you or try to sabotage you. He said, but you have to succeed because of who you are, not despite who you are. Your counterintuitive gifts, these things that make you rough around the edges, the fact that you and Ashley are sort of rebellious and throw brass knuckles to the status quo. He's like, that's why, and ultimately why people are going to hire you, you just don't know it yet.
Sunny (14m 30s):
They're already doing it. You're just, you just, you just don't realize the gift that you're actually giving. And it was in that moment that really became pivotal. And, you know, we tucked that phrase away in 2007, ran our company now have been in some of the biggest brands on earth. We now have clients as big as Google and Hershey's and Microsoft and 20th Century Fox and now Virgin. And the funny thing is, as we wrote this book in 2019, which we wrote it for our younger self, we wrote it for the change maker who had always felt like an outlier who had never felt like they fit in because so many of us don't have a book. We don't have anything to go to. Every leadership book that you read is about changing the parts of yourself so that you can fit in so that you can climb the corporate ladder.
Sunny (15m 15s):
And we wanted to write the anti-thesis of that. You know, what, how do we actually succeed because of who we are, not just the pretty parts, how do we, how do we embrace all of who we are? And so we wrote that book in 2019 Rare Breed: A Guide to Success for the Defiant, Dangerous, and Different. And within a few months, we were leading a workshop for the head of leadership team of Microsoft and working with their leadership team to not only help them better understand Rare Breeds, but also how to create the conditions and the environment to allow Rare Breeds to thrive. And so what we saw happening with the book, which was so exciting was that the changemaker was reading that book and then taking that book to the top and saying, we need this kind of thinking inside the company.
Sunny (15m 55s):
And not only do we need this kind of thinking inside the company, we traditionally pushed this type of thinking out. We don't know what to do when the Rare Breed is presented to us. And so that has now allowed us to now go inside of the biggest companies on earth to share the sermon, you know, and have people coming to church to hear it. And it's one of the most exciting things we've ever done.
Chad (16m 14s):
Well. So here's one thing that we've noticed. We've actually worked with companies for 20 plus years on both sides. Joel and myself and marketing has a huge fucking blind spot.
Sunny (16m 25s):
Chad (16m 25s):
Real quick when's the last time you actually have applied for a job at a company?
Sunny (16m 34s):
Well I was fired from every job I ever worked.
Joel (16m 36s):
It's been a while.
Chad (16m 36s):
Okay, okay... Here's the punchline. It fucking sucks. It takes forever to apply screening questions. If you're lucky, you might have to do a very incredibly impersonal video interview or just, they just never get back to you and your you're in a black hole. And yet that's the experience that every individual is left with. Other than that one person that was hired.
Sunny (16m 58s):
Chad (16m 58s):
So, right. Do you think that experience for a company like Intel who receives a million applications a year, do you think that impacts their brand?
Sunny (17m 8s):
Meaning that the type of people that they hire impacts the brand?
Chad (17m 14s):
No! Their brand, their holistic brand. How people actually think of Intel, whether it's Intel inside, or maybe even buying a Coke and switching to buying Pepsi?
Sunny (17m 22s):
Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, the key here is innovation, right? It's become, it's a word so central to success that it's almost becomes sort of talismanic, right? We think of all of these images of, you know, Nikola Tesla and, you know, Jobs and Waz, and you know, all of this sort of innovation and it is the engine that's powering today's economy. But I think what a lot of people don't understand is that they don't actually know how to not only acquire this talent, it's almost like a checklist like, well, you know, are they black? Are they brown? I mean, they're not actually thinking or hiring for diversity of thought. Ultimately hiring impacts everything you do from an innovation standpoint, from a culture standpoint, from a brand standpoint.
Sunny (18m 5s):
So they're all interconnected. I mean, at Motto, we believe that there's a trifecta, which is leadership, culture and brand. And we have to be thinking of all three of those things almost as if they are one and a lot of companies don't, they leave hiring to HR. They leave firing to HR and they leave brand to the marketing department and leadership at the top never really communicates their vision down throughout the company so that everyone else can actually embody that and understand the flag that they're carrying and the hill that they're marching towards
Chad (18m 32s):
You got a white guy at the top, or a whole bunch of white guys at the top. So who in the hell is going to change it. If HR doesn't change it and all your hiring managers are white dudes, who's going to fucking change it.
Sunny (18m 44s):
I think it's like force of pressure happening around, I mean, this conversation's happening. We wrote an article recently for Fast Company that actually went viral. I think something like 6 million eyeballs on it. And it was about companies fire for these same traits when they should be giving bonuses. What I think is happening is people at the top who have long been in these positions where there has not been a creativity or the mindset to change, they're going to be forced to change or either going to innovate or you're going to disappear. And the people below you and around you are going to force you into this conversation, whether you want to have it or not.
Joel (19m 19s):
So I can hear a mass grown by all the recruiters that are listening to the show, thinking, get the Rare Breed. How do we attract the Rare Breed? These folks are just keeping their head above water to fill seats with just people that intake oxygen and can do the job.
Sunny (19m 36s):
And you need that. There's a place for those people. That doesn't mean that every single butt that you fill has to be, or every seat that you fill with a butt has to be a Rare Breed, but you need Rare Breed thinking in your company. There's no other way.
Chad (19m 52s):
But that's tactical.
Sunny (19m 54s):
Yeah. It's not that you don't need people that kind of keep things running smoothly. I don't think that's the goal here. It's not either or. It's and. You know, it's those people AND you're looking for those types of Rare Breeds who don't fit the mold, you know, who stand out against the herd, who look at the status quo and punch it in the eye. You know, you need visions who think outlandishly, rebelling against business as usual.
Joel (20m 18s):
How many Rare Breeds do you need If it's a percentage, is that up to the executives to go out and hand pick who they think are Rare Breeds? Is this up to the people writing the job description and what should that entail to attract people who are rare breeds?
Sunny (20m 31s):
I think it starts at the top. You know, I think it's leadership and vision. I mean, it's about creating the conditions in the environment to know who doesn't always say yes to you. And if you're not a visionary leader, how do you surround yourself with people that are? And so I think it starts there first and foremost, like what's the Clarion call that you want to have? And then how do you then put people in place even at HR positions that might traditionally be seen as boring or, you know, looking for those stable types of employees, but rather how do you actually put people in HR that are also going to think counterintuitively and say, maybe our job descriptions should be a little bit more interesting than senior project manager, you know, looking for somebody to manage our projects.
Sunny (21m 15s):
Like maybe you're looking for somebody who to come in and do that, but also to design the way your clients are experiencing your projects and your project management, you know, who's a design thinker, someone who's going to challenge the way that you've always ran your projects, you know, and there's a certain person that you're looking for. So sometimes the questions that we're even asking are not the right questions, you know, even at the HR level, at the, at the first entry point, it starts with the job description. It starts with who's hiring them. It also starts from the top of what kind of culture we are actually trying to create, what kind of thinkers and people do we need within it. And they can't all be the ones that look like us.
Chad (21m 55s):
Sunny (21m 55s):
Chad (21m 55s):
That overall is the biggest discussion we have because marketing has failed the employment side of the house period for 99.9% of organizations out there, which is what actually created this thing. We call today, recruitment marketing. And we even have employment branding specialists because marketing's fucked all this up because they just have a blind spot. So, I mean, that's the hard discussion. And I don't think that there is, you know, a black and white answer to this because some of those who don't have purpose or they have a specific way of doing business, they're just not going to get the Rare Breeds, right?
Sunny (22m 39s):
I think that it is about also helping your team and organization and culture think with a Rare Breed mindset, which most people don't. Most organizations look, I've been in thousands, hundreds of thousands of them at this point in my now 16 year career, I've been in the biggest brands on earth. And I can tell you with a thousand percent certainty that many of what's happening, where the innovation starts and stops is through every bit of red tape that exists on the way to creating extraordinary ideas. There's so many bullet holes by the time they get to where they need to go, that it's unrecognizable and change, isn't allowed to even take place or happen because of budget restrictions or too many people, or this person has got to do.
Sunny (23m 18s):
You know, you've got all this stuff going on. And so what we're going and doing is also trying to help organizations at the operational level think first and foremost, with a Rare Breed mindset, because without that, you can't affect anything else that's happening around you. You have to first start thinking counterintuitive to how you've been thinking. And that's really hard to get most people to do so, but there are organizations out there. There are companies out there, we've been in them, we've worked with them we've changed them. That will adopt this thinking and have adopted this thinking and have had massive breakthroughs and competitive edges because of this type of thinking, you know, and deploying it, not just in little silos, but actually throughout their entire organization and rewarding people who think in that way.
Joel (24m 2s):
I was gonna ask the path of least resistance for you. HR is historically risk averse, right? Their job by nature is to keep us out of court, like keep us out of trouble. So when you go into these big organizations, who is most open to this conversation and talking about recruiting and growing our own talent and internally, and finding the folks that are going to be the future leaders. Is it the executives? Is it marketing? Is it HR? How do you bring all those together? Talk about that.
Sunny (24m 32s):
Yeah. I mean, we will, most of the work that we're doing now is we're doing facilitated workshops where we can let people have a safe space to communicate how they feel. There are a lot of people actually at these levels, HR leadership, executive VPs, even of brand marketing, you know, HR culture, even CEOs and founders like who are they have hunger for this? You know, they want to change. They want to do things, but no, one's really given them permission to do it. And number two, they don't always know how. And so first you have to identify what you're looking for. You're not looking for. And when we, when we say Rare Breed, I want to be very careful, right? These are not people who come in and trash your organization and create culture carnage.
Sunny (25m 15s):
These are people who accentuate all the right things that you're doing, but call out injustices and problems and also bring solutions to the table to help you fix them, in new and exciting ways. You need those types of thinkers. You need people who are not there to completely destroy the culture, but rather to help make those culture stronger, more effective, more innovative. So it first starts there of knowing what you're looking for and what you're not. And that's why we go into great detail in the book about the dark side of these, they're called vices for a reason, right? First, you need to harness them within yourself, which is why so many change makers are reading the book because they're trying to understand, okay, look, I've always been sort of dangerous and defiant and different.
Sunny (25m 57s):
It's got me into trouble. It's also opened a lot of doors that perhaps would otherwise have been close to me. So some of that double-edged sword is really kind of fascinating because you can have these vices working for you, but you can also have them working against you. So the book really goes into great detail about how to navigate life as a Rare Breed, how to lean into the positive sides of those traits, not the negative. You don't want them to destroy and destruct you. You want them to give you a superpower, to be able to use some of these things like rebelliousness and obsession and audacity and emotion, all the things in the book that we talk about that are typically seen as negatives.
Sunny (26m 37s):
We flip these around to a positive and told you how to navigate the world with one of these as your primary dominant virtue.
Chad (26m 44s):
Right. So talk to me about friction. Why is it so important?
Sunny (26m 48s):
I think that it's important because it gives you another way to communicate. But what I think Rare Breed does is it gives a new definition to words that have typically been used as a slight. When you are called a misfit, when you are called an outlier, what does that say about you? It means you're on the outside looking in, you're the ugly piece of fruit. You don't belong here, you're outside the pack. And I think that we, as a society, this starts very, very young. We're creating this conditioning from the moment that we're born. This is happening in the parent, the eyes of our parents, you know, our teachers, our friends, our mentors, as we continue to grow up under the watchful eye of people who love us.
Sunny (27m 30s):
Sometimes we are taught to grind down those prickly points. And so what I think Rare Breed does is not only reframe a negative into a positive, but it is a badge of honor. I think people who identify as one, or if they, if they've ever been called a misfit, I would love that they chose a word like Rare Breed instead, which means unordinary among the kind, it means that you there's nothing like you out there and that's something to be very, very proud of. I think that in a lot of teams, what breaks down teams really good ideas that are packaged wrong and poor language, and also from misunderstanding. And so I like that Rare Breed offers a little bit of context for one another, to identify and work with the traits that are among your team so that you can work more effectively and efficiently.
Sunny (28m 16s):
And it breaks down those silos because it gives you another way to understand each other in a way that's, non-threatening.
Joel (28m 20s):
There you have it! (Applause) Sunny Bonnell everybody, chief vision officer at Motto, best selling author of Rare Breed, you know, speaker and all kinds of other good stuff. Sunny for our listeners who want to know more about you, your book, or your agency, where would you send them?
Sunny (28m 36s):
So you can find a little bit about Motto at wearemotto.com and you can also learn more about Rare Breed rarebreedleaders.com and also take the quiz, at RareBreedquiz.com, but you can also access it from a RareBreedLeaders.com. But those are really two areas that you can check us out. And then also we're on Instagram and LinkedIn at WeAreMotto and at This is Rare Breed.
Joel (29m 2s):
Take the quiz, Chad, you'll find out that your hot blooded.
Chad and Joel (29m 6s):
Check it and see! Check it and See. We out.
OUTRO (29m 59s):
Thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast with Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of Shout Outs of people, you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any hoo be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. Is so weird. We out.