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Shifting Talent Tectonics

Shifting demographics combined with the digitalization of all aspects of life are transforming the nature of work. This is forcing companies to rethink how they design jobs and recruit, develop, and engage employees. Live from UNLEASH America in Las Vegas, Dr. Steven Hunt joins Chad & Cheese to discuss his new book. In Talent Tectonics: Navigating Global Workforce Shifts, Building Resilient Organizations, and Reimagining the Employee Experience, Dr. Hunt explains how technology is changing the purpose of work and why creating effective employee experiences is critical to building organizations that can thrive in a world of accelerating change and growing skill shortages. It’s a must-listen for anyone navigating the ebbs and flows of managing a global workforce. Enjoy and get smarter in the process.



Dr. Steven Hunt: Anyone who tells you work was better 50 years ago didn't work 50 years ago.


Dr. Steven Hunt: You know?

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: They've never dug a trench. Yes. Yes, yes.

Dr. Steven Hunt: Yeah, exactly.

Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HRs most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.

Chad: Welcome to the morning after hangover edition, live here at UNLEASH America.

Joel: I tell you what, I'm feeling good though.

Chad: From beautiful Las Vegas, Nevada. And we are here. I'm Chad Sowash.


Chad: Joined by Joel Cheeseman by the way. Welcome to the show. Dr. Steven Hunt, author of Talent Tectonics: Navigating Global Workforce Shifts, Building Resilient Organizations and Reimagining the Employee Experience. That's a mouthful. Dr. Hunt, what else should we know about you?

Dr. Steven Hunt: Yeah, another mouthful is my job title. I am the Chief Expert for Work and Technology for SAP and...

Joel: Chief expert?

Dr. Steven Hunt: Yeah. Yeah, so I...

Joel: So you're the CEO? Right? You're the chief?

Dr. Steven Hunt: I used to be a junior expert.


Dr. Steven Hunt: No. [laughter]

Chad: And before that, apprentice expert. [chuckle]

Dr. Steven Hunt: No. What I do is, it's pretty kinda unique. I'm an industrial organizational psychologist, so the psychology of work, all that stuff. And my career is focused on, how do you use technology to create more effective work environments? Like enable better decisions, more inclusive environments, agile environments, high-performing environments. As well as a lot of this is, how is technology changing the environments we need to create?

Joel: Yeah.

Dr. Steven Hunt: And so that book, Talent Tectonics, is really based on my experience working with, at this point, thousands of companies. Looking at how do we use technology to create better environments, taking into account the one thing that isn't changing about work, which is the fundamental psychology of people.

Joel: It's all about signals at this point, right? All of what you said is about signals, whether it's behavioral signals, salespeople being able to reach their goals. They're just... It's all signal oriented, is it not?

Dr. Steven Hunt: I think that's part of it. I don't think entirely. A lot of it is...

Joel: I know. I know I'm simplifying it and you...

Dr. Steven Hunt: No, no, no.

Joel: And the chief experts like to make things complex.

Dr. Steven Hunt: Yeah. No, no.

Chad: He's a doctor man.

Joel: Jesus Christ.

Chad: He's a doctor.

Dr. Steven Hunt: Not exactly. Not a real doctor.


Dr. Steven Hunt: My wife's a family medicine doctor. I'm always like, "I don't really... " I'm the kind of psychologist that doesn't actually care about people.

Joel: Oh, okay.

Dr. Steven Hunt: They just care about what they produce.


Dr. Steven Hunt: That's not true.

Joel: Ah, sounds familiar.

Dr. Steven Hunt: No, it's more than that, it's job design. What's happening is the two big shifts, and you guys would know this, is one, the demographics are fundamentally changing our labor markets. There's more people aging out of a lot of labor markets than entering into 'em.

Joel: Yeah.

Dr. Steven Hunt: And it's not that we don't have enough people, it's that we're not fully utilizing all the people we have in society. The labor participation rates are going down.

Joel: Yeah.

Dr. Steven Hunt: Particularly in historically, whatever you call, historically disenfranchised communities, wherever you want. How do we go out and how do we more effectively engage the entire workforce? Because just recruiting harder isn't gonna work.

Joel: Companies really aren't engaging communities in the first place. We used to have training programs.

Dr. Steven Hunt: Yeah.

Joel: Where they would work with schools, vocational schools. They would work with community colleges.

Dr. Steven Hunt: Yeah.

Joel: They would... But they totally pulled back from that because of the incentives [chuckle] weren't there anymore. But long term, the incentive was always there that they would be building their own talent pipelines and now that has dried up and we're in the situation we are right now.

Dr. Steven Hunt: Right. And I always get frustrated if you hear people say, "Oh, declining birth rates are bad for economies." That's not true. They're bad for economies that depend on exploiting large amounts of underemployed people.


Dr. Steven Hunt: And the problem...

Joel: Yes.

Dr. Steven Hunt: We have a lot of people... There's a quote, I don't know who said it, but the potential is equally distributed across society. Opportunity is not.

Joel: Yeah.

Dr. Steven Hunt: That's definitely true. A lot of this is about, the book's about how do we reimagine work so that we can bring more people into it through changing... I'll give a good example on technology, shift scheduling technology. The reason a lot of people don't work, particularly people that have primary family care responsibility, which in our society is mainly women, is because of shift schedules. If you gotta... If you're the one who has to pick up your kids...

Joel: Oh, yeah.

Dr. Steven Hunt: Shift schedules... And also hybrid work, this is another interesting thing. That hybrid work, since we've moved to that, employment of people with disabilities in the United States is the highest it has ever been.

Joel: Yeah.

Dr. Steven Hunt: Since we moved to hybrid work.

Joel: 'Cause they can do work from home.

Chad: Yeah.

Dr. Steven Hunt: Exactly.

Joel: And they can still get it done.

Dr. Steven Hunt: Yeah. So the book talks about, this is an example of job design.

Joel: Yeah.

Dr. Steven Hunt: But also, how do you staff, how do you hire? But the book also focuses a lot on, the other thing is digitalization has changed the nature of work. We need to hire people to be creative, collaborative, caring as opposed to just productive. You can't be those things if you feel exhausted, burned out, hangover. [laughter] Just coming to your earlier comment.


Joel: As he looks directly at you, Joel Cheeseman, Jesus.

Chad: I don't know what you're talking about. Who do you hope reads this book? Is it the CEO? Is it the head of talent? Who do you hope picks this book up?

Dr. Steven Hunt: Anyone who is focused on creating more effective workforces and work environments. Now, for some companies that is the CEO. To be honest, a lot of CEOs, that's not where their passion and focus is. They're like, "People are important... "

Chad: They say it is. [chuckle]

Dr. Steven Hunt: "That's why I hired a CHRO." Yeah. But that's okay. I'm not... You can love technology. That doesn't mean you wanna be a CIO, but it's definitely HR. HR, HR technology, consultants, anyone who... Hey, my job is about helping companies create more effective job design, better staffing, more, better employee development, more engaged workforces. And it goes into... And the book is... It starts with talking about how digitalization and demographics are changing labor markets and work.

Joel: Yeah.

Dr. Steven Hunt: But then it goes in and says, well, what do we do about it? And that... It's built around, I kind of talk about it, when it comes to HR and you guys have been in this field a long time, the basic challenges of this field never change.

Joel: No.

Dr. Steven Hunt: It's how you design jobs, how do you fill them, how do you develop people and how do you keep them around so they don't quit?

Joel: But we're still getting it wrong. [chuckle]

Dr. Steven Hunt: And now the book talks about, how do we need to rethink work using technology, but also going back to focusing on the one thing that isn't changing about work which is, what motivates people? What makes people happy? How we learn, it's the same now as it's always been. What changes is labor markets and people's expectation. They can get it, but it's like your grandparents didn't want to work in a soul-sucking repetitive job...

Chad: Yeah.

Dr. Steven Hunt: That forced them to an early grave. They wanted to work in a cool job where they were appreciated and recognized. But it was a different world a hundred years ago.

Chad: I'm gonna push back a little bit or just get your insight on this. So what if all the amount of change at the corporate level doesn't work? What if people are just into the freedom of the gig economy? Flipping the switch whenever I wanna drive a car, flipping the... Punching my ticket whenever I wanna deliver food. What if all the changes you talk about making to get people back into the workforce, keep them at a job, doesn't work because that is such a huge trend of freedom, independence...

Joel: Autonomy.

Chad: And living the way that I wanna live?

Dr. Steven Hunt: Well, I think part of it is going back to really looking at a couple fundamental myths. One of them is that people don't want to work. There's a concept in psychology called need for achievement, which is that we are wired to want to accomplish meaningful things in our life. It's why babies crawl when they can. Parents don't go, "Oh, it's time for you to crawl." The kids... That's one of the joys of being a parent. You have kids. They just figure stuff out.

Chad: Yeah.

Dr. Steven Hunt: It's just amazing. And it's... Why? 'Cause we're hardwired for it. And there's a reason why the word meaningless is a synonym for depression. People want a reason to get up in the morning. They want to go out and do something that makes them... There's people that where they feel valued, they feel like a contribution. Now, if they didn't have to work for money, would they work differently? Absolutely. But would they not work at all? No. No. Not if you're psychologically healthy. If you're clinically depressed, that's a different issue.

Joel: People wanna do stuff.

Dr. Steven Hunt: People wanna do stuff. You want to be valued. You want to make an impact.

Chad: Is the achievement of delivering for DoorDash different than the achievement of writing a new program for a corporation?

Dr. Steven Hunt: It's the reason for why you're working. People work for different reasons. You guys probably ride in Ubers all the time, or Lyfts or whatever. It's fascinating to talk to those drivers about why they decided to do it. A lot of them are like, "'Cause what I wanted from work basically was a paycheck to pay my rent. And this is the easiest way to get it and I'm great with that."

Chad: Or I have a young child and this gives me the flexibility to spend time with them.

Dr. Steven Hunt: Yeah.

Joel: We talked to a Uber driver in Scottsdale and she literally, she was head of huge customer service, and they've got call centers and whatnot around there, and she got out of that. First off, they were doing layoffs because of COVID and they were trying to pull people back in. And she just got out of it and she started driving Uber because she was stressed, she was burning out. She never got time to spend with her family. None of those things. So it's kind of like, what do you want as a human?

Chad: And I think made more money. Right? At the end of the day, or no?

Joel: Yeah, I don't... I think she made...

Chad: Comparably? Yeah.

Joel: As much as she needed to be happy and that's all that mattered.

Dr. Steven Hunt: Yeah. And that's the thing. I think what we're seeing is we are seeing a shift in how people wanna work and companies partially is that we used to hire people just to be productive, which is, show up, shut up and do what you're told, right?

Joel: Yeah.

Dr. Steven Hunt: And now because of digitalization, all this stuff that was show up, shut up, do what you're told is being automated. It's being automated away. And I'm a big fan of automation. It's like most of the stuff that's automated is repetitive, inhuman tasks that people shouldn't have to do anyhow.

Joel: They suck. They're tasks that suck.

Dr. Steven Hunt: Anyone who tells you work was better 50 years ago didn't work 50 years ago.


Dr. Steven Hunt: You know?

Chad: Yeah.

Joel: They've never dug a trench. Yes. Yes, yes.

Dr. Steven Hunt: Yeah, exactly. What's happening though, is now, we are hiring people to do the uniquely human things, like being creative, collaborative, caring. I use caring as a really good example. Technology can never care for a person 'cause caring is, by definition is about a person giving time of their life to you. That's what to care means.

Joel: Yeah.

Dr. Steven Hunt: Technology can do the exact same thing, but it's part of the caring is, no, somebody's actually literally thinking of me. And that's at a deeper, profound level. So as we're changing the nature of work to do more truly human activities...

Joel: Right.

Dr. Steven Hunt: We need to tap into the things that make people really good at this. And the other big myth about people is that people fear change. We don't. We fear poorly managed change, punishing change.


Dr. Steven Hunt: And that's our experience. We're wired to think change is always gonna be bad. It's just our...

Joel: Well, and that's a great point. That's a great point because change usually sucks because the transformation part sucks.

Dr. Steven Hunt: Yeah. But I use examples like when I'm talking to people about this, have you ever gone river rafting?

Joel: Yeah.

Dr. Steven Hunt: Okay. Did you have to do it? Were you like Louis and Clark and it was the only way to get across?


Chad: No.

Dr. Steven Hunt: Did you pay money to do it?

Joel: Yes. As a matter of fact.

Dr. Steven Hunt: Yeah? Did you enjoy it?

Joel: Oh, hell, yeah.

Dr. Steven Hunt: Did you know you can drown and die?

Joel: Yes. So the rapid... Yeah, the... Yes.

Dr. Steven Hunt: So you paid money to voluntarily introduce change in your life that could have killed you.

Joel: And almost die. Yes.


Dr. Steven Hunt: Yeah. We don't fear change.

Chad: He did the same when we started this podcast, by the way.


Dr. Steven Hunt: Yeah. Right. We actively seek it out. We seek it out. But there's certain things that make it fun. First of all, we know why we're doing it. It's like it's meaningful to us. You're not just being thrown on a boat in a river and saying, "You're off."

Joel: Right.

Dr. Steven Hunt: The second thing is that we're confident we have the task to be successful. It wouldn't be very fun if you had a boat that didn't float, right? And the third one is...

Joel: Wouldn't work.

Dr. Steven Hunt: We do it as a group. When we're under stress particularly, it's really important we feel there's other people around us and care about us. River rafting by yourself probably wouldn't be as fun.

Joel: It's called kayaking.

Dr. Steven Hunt: Kayak. Yeah. And it's a different experience. But I use this example because we have to rethink work that taps into that fundamental joy of learning and change that you see. Like going back to when you have your kids, one of the joys of being a parent is watching how delighted kids are in change. "This is new. Oh my gosh. Wow." But then we manage people to be productive and productivity is about doing the same...

Chad: Standardizations.

Dr. Steven Hunt: We're most productive when we do the same thing over. So it's, this book, that's what it really dives into is... I wanna be clear too, it's not about putting employee needs above the company 'cause good employee experiences don't come from working for failing companies. And I think we've even seen that in our own industry where companies kind of overemphasize one way and all of a sudden, "Oh, we're not making any money."

Joel: Yeah.

Dr. Steven Hunt: It's about realizing companies can't get what they need if employees don't get what they want. But employees can't get what they want if companies don't get what they need. How do we balance that?

Joel: Talk about belonging. That's something that we haven't talked about yet. And it was something that many companies have really leaned heavily on from a culture standpoint is that you need to feel like you belong. And this was something that was starting to catch on before COVID and then really started to be useful within COVID because they didn't want to lose people who were working remote. But it almost feels like a lot of this doesn't matter anymore as as many CEOs are forcing back into the office. It feels like a micromanaged forcing that's happening. Which is change. And that is change that a lot of people, as Joel said earlier, they want the autonomy and they just don't like it.

Dr. Steven Hunt: Yeah. They don't want it. And they don't have to have it. And I think that with the companies that are going that route, it's like, yeah, in the future you're gonna be employing the people no one else wants to hire. Not a good long-term staffing strategy.


Dr. Steven Hunt: It is. It's true. You're seeing this change. I think it is very frustrating from an exclusivity. The most inclusive thing that has happened in our lifetime to work is this move to hybrid. And I realize there's a lot of jobs you can't work hybrid. But even in those jobs, it's also creating a lot more empathy for people whose jobs require them to work fixed schedules. You've seen a lot of technology focused on what they call deskless or hourly workers. Part of that is staffing shortage. And part of that is more of a realization of, "I never thought about the fact that I didn't have to work from the office and there's other people that do." I think we're more empathetic to that, which is positive. I think as far as this backlash we're seeing right now, I think it's just a temporary response that you're seeing. The only reason we didn't embrace hybrid work sooner was the mindset of leaders that...

Dr. Steven Hunt: I always point out that an office building is a form of technology. It's a form of communication technology developed in 1709, supposedly the first... It was the British Admiralty building, supposedly is like the first office building. And it's good and bad like any form of technology, like email or whatever. There's some pluses and dark sides to it and all that. But it got so widely used we forgot it was a form of technology and executives thought it was there... It wasn't effective. They just liked it 'cause it was familiar and it was comfortable 'cause it's how they grew up and they're...

Joel: Well, I think it's management style though, personally.

Dr. Steven Hunt: It's management style. They don't know how to...

Joel: It's control. It's the way that you can control is only if you can put your hands on somebody. You can put your eyes on somebody.

Dr. Steven Hunt: Well, and it's even worse than... If I'm getting really cynical here and I will...

Joel: Please. [laughter]

Dr. Steven Hunt: 'Cause you guys, I know you guys like that.

Chad: That's how we roll.


Dr. Steven Hunt: I'm bringing it out.

Joel: Come on Dr. Steve.

Dr. Steven Hunt: Look, I'm trying to get you to laugh, 'cause you're kinda looking hangover.


Chad: How did I get this reputation?

Joel: Yeah. You're a grumpy bastard, that's why.

Dr. Steven Hunt: 'Cause you opened up saying, "This was the hangover edition." I listen.

Chad: I'm a wonderful guy.

Dr. Steven Hunt: I'm a psychologist. I'm always listening. [laughter] No, if you look at it, I think for a lot of these executives, nothing is more depressing than walking into an office with no people in it. And a lot of these executives, it's so funny, I see these people get up and there's two things that's almost always true about the, "We're getting back in the office." And I wanna be clear here, there's reasons to come back in an office or anything that, but I tend to lead... I don't like mandates in general. It makes much sense to be saying, "You have to be in the office three days a week." It'd be like saying, "You can't be in the office more than two days a week."

Joel: Yeah.

Dr. Steven Hunt: People want flexibility. Give it to 'em. But if you look at the people that say this, getting really cynical for a second, they're inevitably somebody who does not have primary family care responsibility. It's not the person that picks up the kids if they get calls from the school.

Joel: Yes.

Dr. Steven Hunt: It's probably somebody, if they commute at all, lives very close to the office. And very often it's people that probably are never even in the office. But I think what it is, is they come off their business trip, they walk into the hall and it's depressing when there's nobody in this cubicle farm. They wanna see all the people and they walk through. And I think it's very much an ego thing, to be honest.

Joel: Well, and the cubicle farm is depressing for the people who have to fucking work there.

Dr. Steven Hunt: Who never get to leave, who don't [laughter] get the windows.

Joel: Yes. Yes.

Dr. Steven Hunt: 'Cause the windows go to the person that's never in the office.

Joel: So it has nothing to do with the masses, it has to do with that one individual. So there's a story where DJ Sol, David Solomon from Goldman Sachs, was at a country club. Some of his employees came up during the week and said, "Hey, love you, love working for Goldman Sachs." And he automatically thought, "What the hell are you doing here? Why aren't you working?" Again. He was at the country club. It's like this inability for CEOs or somebody at that level to understand that, "Hey look, first off, are they getting the job done? Are they hitting their KPIs?" And by the way, you're at the goddam country club too.

Dr. Steven Hunt: Yeah, I agree. And this is empathy. I think we're getting a lot more empathetic in general. But there's an interesting one where technology plays a role in that. One of our customers I was working with pointed out and said, "Executives can't truly understand employee experience without using technology." And I was like, "I sell technology for a living." So I'm kind of like, "That sounds like something I'd say." But [laughter] this is a person who didn't have to say that. I'm like, "Well, can you talk more about that?" And she said, "First of all, if you're a large company, you can't possibly interact with everyone. Plus people's experiences change radically over time. So you'd have no way to sort of keep the finger on the pulse. But second," she's like, "You live in a bubble, you're treated differently. And that's not bad. They have admin assistants for a reason, but there's a lot of stuff that regular people have to do, they don't have to deal with." And then the third one I thought was the most fascinating. She also said, "And you should get out amongst the people and listen and have that." That's good. You should do that. But even then, if somebody's emotionally intelligent isn't gonna be totally authentic with a CEO.

Joel: Oh, hell, no.

Dr. Steven Hunt: I talked to a friend once who said they met somebody very high up in the organization and they had a really significant problem. I said, "Did you talk to them about it? 'Cause they could do something about it?" He goes...

Joel: No.

Dr. Steven Hunt: "I'm only meeting this person one time. I don't wanna be the guy who whines." You know? And so I think part of this is leaders having to really understand their inability to really experience the same thing their employees are experiencing and know that gap exists and then find ways to close it.

Joel: Well, and larger organizations having the hierarchy and the actual managers trained to be leaders, not just managers, not just pencil pushers or micromanagers, but actual leaders, we don't do that in corporate America.

Dr. Steven Hunt: We don't.

Joel: The military does it. But we don't do it. As you get promoted in the military, you have to go through leadership training. There's no leadership training in corporate America. You just... Your great individual performance gets you to be a manager for some reason.

Dr. Steven Hunt: I always joke when companies... I'm like, "How many of your managers were promoted to management positions 'cause they were good at coaching?" They'd say, "None."

Joel: Yeah.

Dr. Steven Hunt: And then I'm like, "And how much training did they get compared to like your sales teams?" "Like almost none." "So you could master management." And then the last one they asked that... And this has gotten better over time. I will say all these we're trending in a positive direction unless I sound super depressing.


Dr. Steven Hunt: But we've got so much farther to go. I always ask, "You wanna develop people, how do you reward managers that develop and promote people off their teams, which is what a good manager does." [chuckle] And so often it's, "Well, we punish them by not backfilling the position." [laughter] I'm like, "And you wonder why you don't have a coaching culture." It's not the manager's fault. It's, you haven't created an environment to make it happen.

Joel: Then that's a behavior that the manager understands. So therefore, they never allow anybody off their team. And everybody feels stuck.

Dr. Steven Hunt: Yeah. But the managers, what are they hired to do? They're rewarded to execute against a plan. And so if they're not rewarded to share talent, why else should they do it? You're not asking them to. And they don't... So don't blame... I hate it when it... Talent poaching is a weasel word to... It's like when people say employees don't quit companies, they quit managers. I mean, no, they quit companies that employ bad managers. Don't blame the manager. [laughter]

Chad: You're using the word hybrid instead of remote. Is that on purpose? And how do you see the future of the office?

Dr. Steven Hunt: Well, I think it is hybrid in the sense that part of effective remote work is meeting in person. And we've known this before the pandemic. There's a lot of research on virtual teams. And this is why I crack up when people are talking about this change. I have worked remotely for 16 years. I worked for a global company. I had at one point a team that had people in six different countries. It's not that this is new, it's just new to a lot of people. And so I see the future of us going into more and more hybrid work. There's so many benefits to it. What we haven't figured out is how to effectively use that communication technology called an office that we were over-reliant on it. There was all sorts of bad sides to, oh you're committed 'cause you stay late, kind of BS, stuff like that.

Joel: Yeah. Yes.

Dr. Steven Hunt: And actually aside, it's fascinating how it's changed the power structures 'cause it's like why does that person have more influence? Well, they don't know anything but they sit next to the CEO.

Chad: Yeah.

Dr. Steven Hunt: They get face time.

Chad: Proximity bias.

Dr. Steven Hunt: Yeah. So what we need to figure out is how do we effectively use in-person meeting? Because the research on this has shown it's really important to connect. Like the fact that we've met in person now forever will change our electronic communication. Hopefully in a good way guys. I hope so.


Dr. Steven Hunt: You know what I mean? Once you've met somebody, when you get an email from them, you actually interpret it differently. And I don't know what it is psychologically, I kind of joke, maybe we smell each other or something, I don't know. But there's something that happens when we meet in person.

Joel: Pheromones.

Dr. Steven Hunt: Pheromones.

Joel: Joel's putting off some pheromones right now.

Dr. Steven Hunt: And its...

Chad: My Drakkar is very pungent this morning.


Dr. Steven Hunt: Yeah.

Joel: Hai Karate.


Dr. Steven Hunt: English Leather.


Chad: Sex Panther, 60% of the time, works every time.

Dr. Steven Hunt: That's what I thought but I couldn't say it, I feel like.

Chad: We can say it, thankfully.

Joel: Of course.

Chad: That is Dr. Steven Hunt, everybody.

Joel: Yes.

Chad: Author of Talent Tectonics: Navigating Global Workforce Shifts, Building Resilient Organizations and Reimagining the Employee Experience. Doctor, for those that want to connect with you or buy the book, where would you send them?

Dr. Steven Hunt: The book is available on Amazon and any other online sites that you buy books from. It's published by Wiley and LinkedIn is this a great place to find me. You can also go, is my little website, Talent Tectonics about the book. And I work for SAP, so you can also contact me through SAP and if you're an SAP customer, I hope that you will.

Joel: Excellent. And if you're not an SAP customer?

Dr. Steven Hunt: You can still talk to me.


Chad: Feeling fine and cherry wine. That's another one in the can. Chad, we out.

Joel: We out.

Outro: Wow. Look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast. Or maybe you cheated and fast forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back. Valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whiskey or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hang out with these two Chuckleheads instead. Now go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.


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