On this special episode, The Chad & Cheese team up with our pal and fellow podcaster Matt Alder, who, in true Scooby-Doo fashion, rented a camper van for our East Coast tour. First stop? Glenkinchie Distillery in the Scottish Lowlands. Because, of course, in Scotland the best way to start the day is with some whiskey.
After the tour we whip out the mics and dive into a Tru Glasgow briefing, topics like whether resumes are finally six feet under, upskilling, kids deciding their careers (because they totally know what they want), and whether the US and Europe are finally sharing the same recruiting woes.
Big shoutout to Matt, our Scottish pals, and the sponsors of both Tru Glasgow and Tru Edinburgh:
and POETRY
Slàinte Mhath!
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION
Podcast Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast.
Joel: Oh, wait, wrong show.
Matt Alder: No. Wrong show, wrong show. This is a much more civilized show. You can't do this...
Joel: You can't do that in Europe.
Matt Alder: We're currently, we're currently sitting in a very civilized bar, a distillery. And I'm trying to babysit these two Americans through...
Joel: It's getting less and less civilized with each new, each dram.
Chad: Especially with every single dram of fucking whiskey we've had. This is great.
Joel: To set the stage, Adam is driving. We are not...
Matt Alder: I'm not Adam.
Chad: His name's not even Adam.
Matt Alder: I'm Matt, not Adam.
Chad: Matt.
Joel: That British guy. Matt Alder.
Matt Alder: It's going to be a long day.
Chad: That's how drunk Joel is.
Joel: This is like my fourth straight day of debauchery.
Chad: Not only do Matt and I have to actually find out where you're at in the city because you can't find where we're at.
Joel: I blame Matt Adam from Cincinnati for being in my head.
Matt Alder: Set the scene for us. Tell everyone where we are and what you're doing right now.
Joel: We are at the, I'll probably mispronounce, Glenkinchie Distillery. We are near Edinburgh.
Matt Alder: Yeah.
Chad: Edinburgh.
Joel: It's a very rural scene, but not sort of Midwest rural. Think of Hedgerows.
Matt Alder: This is picturesque.
Joel: And think of stone walls from the 1200s and old houses with 80 chimneys sticking out of them. Lovely, lovely green backdrop. It's sort of a stereotypical Scottish rain sort of drizzling down, but not too hard, not too soft. Just right. There's a bridge, one of those arch sort of old Romanesque looking bridges. Although my understanding is the Romans never made it to Scotland.
Matt Alder: Correct.
Chad: I think they did. They just didn't go very far.
Joel: I feel like we're going to be filming the latest episode of Downton Abbey or the next Harry Potter movie somewhere nearby...
Matt Alder: Yeah, something that was made in Scotland. And, yeah.
Joel: This location. We're not in Kansas anymore. Let's put it that way.
Matt Alder: No, absolutely. We've been doing some whiskey tasting. And as you say, I've been driving, so I have takeaway. I have to...
Joel: He's babysitting and driving.
Matt Alder: I can drink that later. And you're currently doing, so what are you drinking right now? Talk us through it.
Chad: I have a Sherry flight, so I have four wonderful... And Helen, as a matter of fact, here at the distillery, she just explained.
Joel: My grandmother's name, by the way, is Helen.
Chad: Yes. I don't know how she took that, by the way. Anyway, beautiful color.
Joel: Do you think she took it poorly?
Chad: Beautiful color, beautiful sweetness on the sherry side of the house. But then we've got this craziness of, I think I see smoke coming out of yours, Cheeseman. I'm not sure.
Joel: Yeah, I think Satan poured these himself.
Chad: Don't you talk about Helen like that.
Joel: I went with the... No, she didn't pour. She knows some people. I went with the smoky flight. And for those of you who've not indulged in the peaty, smoky scotches, you're really missing out, I think, although that's a personal choice.
Chad: Matt and I are shaking our heads. We're like, no, you can have that shit.
Joel: A bit of a selection of, I believe, some Lagavulin.
Chad: Look at that color, though.
Joel: It was the Ohaban. What is the other one?
Chad: Oban.
Joel: No, it's not Oban, but it's O-H. Anyway...
Matt Alder: Damn, I can't remember.
Joel: They allegedly speak English in this country, but nobody practices it.
Chad: You're going way too deep in the rabbit hole.
Joel: Anyway, I got four smokies. Chad has some nice, smooth, sweet scotches. And Matt is dateless at the moment.
Matt Alder: I am driving.
Joel: He's got some going home bottles ready to hit it.
Chad: This has got to be like the not Scottish but also English nightmare, watching two Americans drink while you can't partake. It's got to be mad.
Joel: And I haven't even said Aberfeldy yet. So that's really when things have gone south.
Matt Alder: You've been practicing.
Chad: You better take that L out of there.
Joel: Absolutely. So to... Just to give some context, you've come from Glasgow this morning. We did Tru Glasgow yesterday. Which was...
Chad: Would be a train much faster.
Matt Alder: Absolutely. And then I picked you up in our crazy podcasting camper van...
Chad: Scooby-Doo mystery machine. Yes.
Matt Alder: In Edinburgh.
Joel: Shaggy and Scooby fighting crime in Northern UK.
Matt Alder: Joel made the wrong pickup point.
Chad: As usual.
Matt Alder: So we had to go across town to get him.
Joel: Well, how many BrewDogs can you have in one city within a two-mile radius?
Chad: Not only that, but he even told you, this is the BrewDog to go to. And you're like, I think I'm at the wrong BrewDog.
Joel: Did I mention I'm on day four of debauchery and over service?
Matt Alder: And yeah, we're doing a little tour today. So we're going to do sort of three recordings as we go around. And this is the distillery stop. But yeah, so at Tru Glasgow yesterday. We had around 50 people from the Scottish TA community come out.
Joel: Great turn out.
Matt Alder: And yeah, it was a great afternoon. Some great conversations, some lively discussion, a bit of debate. And yeah, really, really interesting.
Joel: So let's set the stage. This was what is known as an unconference?
Matt Alder: That's right.
Joel: Which means pretty much anything goes. Which again, if you add two Americans with 50 Scots, things are going to get a little crazy. So we had speakers who were TA leaders at companies.
Chad: For the most part.
Joel: Some people may know, may not know. For the most part, yeah. The schedule is sort of fluid as we found out. But each one has a certain topic. They discuss it. And it's sort of a free-for-all of commentary, questions. Chad and I were both running the mic. I think I lost two or three pounds, which is good for me running the mic to different folks. But just set the stage for what an unconference is. It's not the PowerPoint presentation parade.
Matt Alder: No, absolutely. It was half an hour sessions with a kind of a lead speaker.
Chad: And you've done Tru conferences before, right? And this is our... We were virgins.
Matt Alder: Yeah, no, way back when Bill came up with the idea. Bill Borman. Should give him a name check. Yeah, I've done a few of them before. And this was a particularly good one. And I think it's just the, you know, you pick a topic, you have someone who talks on that topic to start the track, and then you all discuss it. And I think there was some... Yeah, it was some great opinions coming from the floor, a bit of debate. I mean, there were lots of topics that we discussed, but what were the sort of standout ones for you that came out of the conversation?
Joel: So the classic, the CV is dead or for our American friends, the resume is dead. We've been having that conversation for almost 20 years now. It's still alive and kicking from what I can tell.
Chad: Very much.
Joel: So some conversation around that. Obviously, automation was a topic point. I think every country, at least in the advanced world, is dealing with the automation questions. Who's gonna have a job, who isn't? I think there was some pressure points around, yes, there will be fewer recruiters. However, there will be new jobs around marketing, data analysts, data scientists that don't exist today that are there because of recruiting.
Joel: And there was a little bit of a lively conversation around do employee reviews, particularly Glassdoor, still make a difference or still matter? But yeah, a lot of lively conversation all around, but those were a few points that stuck out for me.
Matt Alder: Yeah, I think the one that stuck out for me was the whole skills-based hiring conversation. Very sort of typical of any event that we go to, everyone wants to talk about it, but there was a bit of honesty in the room about how difficult it is and people are not making progress, the progress with it that perhaps they might claim they are externally. And a lot of debate about what it was, what it is and how it's useful, but a real consensus that it is the way forward. There was no one who raised a kind of an objection to the direction of travel. There was a lot of talk about it's a struggle to get there. Where are we with this really? And what is it practical to do?
Chad: Yeah, I think it has to revolve around proof and that's the hard part, because you can get a resume that says you're an expert in everything, but where's the proof, right? Just because it's on a piece of paper doesn't mean that you are. And you might be able to talk around the issue, but can you perform and demonstrate that you can actually do that skill? And then back to, will AI take our jobs? I mean, this is all coming back to a job is literally a series of tasks and what tasks can be taken and/or done better. Can you perform those tasks? So when we're talking about skills-based hiring, first and foremost, is we have to understand that there has to be a normalization of the tasks that are performed first and foremost.
Chad: And then secondarily, what kind of quick and easy assessment and/or simulations can you pull together to prove that that person can do the job? And nobody talked about that yesterday, which blew my mind. I was sitting there as a dumb American wanting to just like jump out of my seat and say, there's no foundation for this, right?
Matt Alder: Yeah, there was a little bit actually about the kind of things you could assess at interview. There was a little bit of discussion around that. I think it was when the mic had broken down, so maybe you didn't hear it.
Chad: Yeah. But it's not standardized though, is it?
Joel: Some of the presentations were in English. Some of them were loosely English, so Chad may have missed.
Matt Alder: Some of them were in Glaswegian.
Chad: I had to concentrate really hard sometimes.
Matt Alder: Yeah, and I have a question for you as well. So, you've been to recruitment, obviously not been to a recruitment unconference before.
Joel: We've been around, we've been around.
Matt Alder: But you've been around to recruitment events in lots of different places, including London and Wreckfest and all that sort of stuff. What was the thing that struck you that was different about some of the issues in Scotland or the way that people were talking about the Scottish market?
Joel: I would say maybe just maturity of going down the road with the question of what are we gonna do about upskilling? What are we gonna do about automation? What are we gonna do about these things? I think no matter where you go in the developed world, we're all grappling with the same questions. There may be some companies and organizations in America that are further down the road of figuring all that out.
Joel: Scotland and the UK may be a little less further down the road, but I think we're all struggling with the same questions. And I think we owe a thanks, tongue in cheek to COVID, with work from home and work from anywhere, that these questions are predominant anywhere you go in the developed world.
Chad: I think we're all having the same problems and company by company. And I think this is why one of these conferences are so important, especially these intimate setting conferences, because we can talk about actual execution of how to get from point A to point B or a concept of how to get there, right? In a lot of these bigger conferences, you get this very strategic kind of like outline which nobody can execute on. It's almost impossible. Then we get a chance after that to go to the bar, have some snacks, and then literally talk to people about how you execute in doing these things.
Chad: So I don't think that there's a big difference. There used to be, I think even pre-COVID, about a 5 to 10 year gap, depending from the American process and tech side of the house to Europe. And that is, I think that is almost gone. I think it's almost gone. We're almost in the same place except for programmatic advertising, where Europe is now starting to get programmatic advertising. But yeah, at the end of the day, I think we're... This is the thing that kind of warms my heart. We're all in the same fucking boat at this point. We really are.
Matt Alder: Yeah, I think that's a really good point because I think, you know, if you go back 15 years or so, when I first started going to conferences in the States, there was a, you know, I went to learn stuff because there was a massive divide. But, you know, now everyone's got, we've all got the same technology. You know, everyone talks about what they're doing on LinkedIn and socials. It doesn't matter where you are. So it's very, it's a really interesting thing.
Chad: What was yours? What did you think? Because I mean, you go to the US a lot now, right?
Joel: Don't take over his show, man.
Chad: I mean, you go to the US a lot now. So what's the biggest difference you see when you're hopping back and forth across the pond?
Matt Alder: I think that there are, in every country there are differences in industry and skills and things like that. So even across Scotland, yesterday we had lots of companies who are mainly employing people in call centers in Glasgow. Tomorrow we're going to Edinburgh. We're going to have lots of financial services companies. We had a company yesterday who are building ships.
Chad: Yeah. Welders and...
Matt Alder: Just some really different... So I think you've got kind of different industries and that means kind of different skill shortages and different approaches. I think the other main difference is, it's almost the attitude to risk. So what I think about the US, and I know this is not a complete picture 'cause this just comes from the people I've met at conferences.
Chad: Sure, sure.
Matt Alder: Who are not perhaps indicative of the whole country, but there's a sense that if a new technology comes along, you kind of jump on board, you use it, you see if it works, and then if it breaks, you kind of move on. And I think in Europe, there's a sense of, we're gonna wait and see whether it works first. We want case studies, we want proof, all those kind of things. And I think what's interesting now is, there's no time for that. This AI stuff is moving so quickly, you can't sit back and wait for it to be perfect. And that's...
Chad: If you don't get on board, you're gonna be left at the station, right?
Matt Alder: Yeah And that's a challenge. I think we saw that yesterday. I think we saw people...
Joel: I mean, I think it was real yesterday. I mean, you mentioned Glasgow and call centers. Apparently, that's a major industry. I mean, that's being automated more so than many other industries. So I think even at a local level, Glasgow is dealing with what are we gonna do with all these folks and call center jobs if AI takes all these opportunities?
Matt Alder: Exactly. Well, also we're at this distillery today, we had a great tour of the warehouse. We saw 300 million pounds worth of whiskey and tried some great stuff.
Joel: Only a fraction of that.
Chad: I fell in love, by the way.
Matt Alder: You what?
Chad: I fell in love.
Matt Alder: You fell in love with that cask of 1988?
Joel: The 1988.
Chad: The 1988, oh yes.
Matt Alder: Yeah. But coming back to the cask thing, there's this whole thing about the most... One of the most important things about whiskey is the barrels that it's matured in. And we were talking about the process and the barrels are principally now reconditioned and made by robots. And the kind of...
Chad: Yeah. That blew my mind.
Matt Alder: The artisan job of making the barrel is just down to the finishing. So the humans are now only doing that kind of finishing part of it. So it's... Automation is everywhere, even in kind of the classic craft of making Scottish whiskey.
Joel: And does that impact how you feel about the whiskey that you drink, knowing that it was made by robots or human beings? Or does it matter?
Chad: It's delicious.
Joel: Obviously, I think I speak for a lot of people that I want my booze made by an 80-year-old man in a kilt.
[laughter]
Chad: It was Served by Helen.
Joel: Yeah. I mean, I want the story. I want to feel that human connection.
Chad: That's gonna go away, though.
Matt Alder: Obviously, we're talking about...
Joel: Our kids won't care.
Matt Alder: We're talking about something that is mass produced. I mean, this is a lovely old distillery, but it's owned by...
Joel: The Price won't go down.
Matt Alder: It's owned by Diageo, who a big global company. But I think that it's that balance between the ability to come to places like this and see how it's made. And there's obviously technology in that. But there's also a really deep human aspect to this in terms of how it's...
Chad: Yeah, history.
Matt Alder: But also in terms of the decisions that are made about how things are mixed or how things happen. And it's just the robots are just quite dumb in this case.
Chad: Well, the question is, and we talked about this on the way back, is because there will be more robots, do you think that Her Majesty's or His Majesty's tax is gonna get higher? Because there's gonna be less people that you can tax to be able to... I mean, there's got to be a balancing. There's got to be a square to this, right?
Joel: Yeah, bringing politics into it.
Matt Alder: No, I think that's the thing. And that was one of the conversations yesterday about you already have AI eating up what were seen as traditional entry-level jobs for people's career. Working in banks, working in call centers, and all the stories of the CEOs who made their way up through the corporate ladder. And it's just like, where do these people start? So I think there's some really interesting decisions that someone's gonna have to make about work and how that works.
Joel: That was a great point because there's always the conversation of, well, the best of the best are still gonna have a job. The ones that are menial will not. However, the future cream of the crop, the 24, 25-year-old, how do they get a start? And I think the popular sentiment was they need to be really good at one thing. They need to be the best hammer to add to a toolbox. And when they're in the toolbox, they need to learn more of the tools of the trade.
Chad: And that's so hard as a kid...
Joel: It's so hard.
Chad: To be able to choose what the fuck you're gonna do. I mean, even at 25, right? I mean, even at that, because you're still literally, especially a guy, you're a kid, your frontal lobe isn't even totally formed yet. So I mean, it's so hard. So the question is, and Matt talked about this earlier, is that a lot of these companies can't wait to adopt AI because they can't worry about the risk. They just have to go all in. The same thing's gonna happen for the workforce and kids. They're going to have to go all in. They're gonna have to pick something. And that to me feels very dystopian. Does it not?
Joel: Not just the tip. They got to go all in.
Chad: Yeah.
Matt Alder: Yeah. I think it's an interesting, it's gonna be an interesting time. And I think there are lots of, there's just lots of very big questions to answer. And I'm not sure that...
Joel: No wonder everyone wants to be a TikTok influencer under 25.
Matt Alder: Exactly. I'm also not sure the governments that we currently have set up to think like that or think that far ahead. So yes, interesting. So before we wrap this one, tell us about the 1988 whiskey that we tried and we'll put a picture somewhere of us sniffing the barrel. We've got our noses in the barrel, sniffing this whiskey.
Chad: It's going to be the cover-art to this.
Joel: I'm not sure they ever envisioned me making enough money to even try a whiskey from 1988.
Chad: A Scotch. Yes.
Joel: I mean, that was a special treat to be on a tour and actually have something from my youthful vigor.
Chad: When you lost your virginity. Yeah.
Joel: I wasn't gonna say it, but you did.
Matt Alder: Back when Rick Astley, was in the charts the first time around.
Joel: He may or may not be sharing something that's Tru. But just amazing. So smooth. I don't even know how to explain it. I mean, the color was amazing. The viscosity.
Chad: It was lighter than I thought it would be because we had an older, yes. Is that the one?
Matt Alder: That's it. I've still got it 'cause I'm driving.
Chad: But that's actually darker than I thought it was.
Joel: The driver gets a little bottle. A little shot.
Chad: I mean, it was just, it was smooth.
Joel: Yeah. Even if you don't like whiskey, I think you would really like what it was. 1988 Scotch.
Matt Alder: That was more than a smooth criminal smooth right there.
Joel: That was as smooth as a Tiffany hit from 1988.
Matt Alder: So on that note, we're gonna finish up because we're going to a castle that was built in the 14th century and became a ruin before America was even a thing.
Joel: Quite a while before America.
Chad: And he's saying that while we are getting ruined right now.
Joel: I think we know who's gonna win this war.
Matt Alder: Absolutely.
Podcast Outro: Thank you for listening to what's it called? A podcast, the Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of shoutouts of people you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Anywho be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com. Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. It's so weird. We out.
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