(Yet Another) Death of the Resume Debate

Buckle up for another chaotic ride with HR’s Most Dangerous Podcast, where the banter is sharp, the takes are hot, and no industry sacred cow is safe from the slaughter. In this episode, Joel Cheesman, JT O’Donnell, and Maureen Clough (with a hit-and-run cameo from Chad Sowash) navigate a conversational minefield that stretches from high-stakes geopolitical dread to the gritty future of how we all get paid. The crew kicks things off with a dive into the "dark humor" of global escalations and movie hot takes before pivoting to the real-world anxieties of the modern professional.

Is the resume finally dead, or is it just being fitted for a digital tuxedo? The team squares off on whether AI "slop" has officially broken the application process, leading to a fiery debate on why your personal brand might be the only life raft left in an unstable sea. From the rise of video-first branding to the "human-in-the-loop" reality of Anthropic’s latest AI study, the hosts dissect who is actually at risk of being replaced and who is just being handed better tools.

The episode also serves up a masterclass in modern marketing, dissecting a viral $80M funding round that proves "knowledge creators" might be the new kings of recruiting—though Joel isn’t sold on the hype just yet. Between legacy tech acquisitions that feel a little too "desperate" and a sobering look at the "broken rung" still stalling women in leadership, this episode balances cynicism with a blueprint for survival. Whether you’re worried about flying cars or just trying to survive the next wave of AI-driven layoffs, this is the snark-filled reality check you need.

Ready to hear why your LinkedIn engagement is tanking and why a Big Mac video might be the future of executive branding? Hit play and join the conversation.

PODCAST TRANSCRIPT

Joel Cheesman (00:28.961)

yeah, we can dance if we want to. We can leave your friends behind. Hey, boys and girls, it's the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host, Joel Big Arch Cheeseman.

Maureen Clough (00:42.399)

Boreen aka.

JT ODonnell (00:42.764)

And I'm JT, it's shoulder season O'Donnell.

Joel Cheesman (00:46.657)

I guess we didn't work that out in the beginning.

Maureen Clough (00:46.987)

I'm Maureen.

Yeah, and I can't wait my turn. I'm Maureen aka Mo Wiley Clough and I have a middle name that is unfollow your dreams because that's just how I'm feeling these days.

Joel Cheesman (01:03.105)

Love it. All right, it's Mo, it's JT, it's me. And on this episode of HR's Most Dangerous Podcast, RIP resumes, FYI, anthropic, and go home and get your juice box.

Joel Cheesman (01:20.469)

Let's do this.

Joel Cheesman (01:26.177)

Shockingly, I think the first Goodfellas soundbite that we've pulled for the show, unfortunately. Yeah, one of the greatest movies of all time, Goodfellas. Best gangster movie of all time, go, JT.

JT ODonnell (01:31.288)

Seriously.

Maureen Clough (01:33.567)

Wow. I haven't seen it. Are you shocked?

JT ODonnell (01:34.188)

Mm, agreed.

JT ODonnell (01:40.48)

I'm with you on Goodfellas. Love it. 10 out of 10.

Joel Cheesman (01:41.461)

Goodfellas, okay. Maureen, best mobster movie of all time?

Maureen Clough (01:44.171)

Do you guys think I watch movies at this point?

Goodfellas, never seen it. Never seen it. Nope, nope, probably too scary for me. Nope. Big zip. Nope. None. Literally none. I know, I know, I know. Your movie references are whoosh right over my head.

Joel Cheesman (01:51.669)

You haven't seen any mobster movies? Godfather, one or two, Goodfellas, Sopranos.

JT ODonnell (01:58.958)

Casino.

Joel Cheesman (02:01.697)

because man, holy shit. Well, are you aware there's a, are you?

Are you aware there's a war going on in the Middle East? Are you at least tuned in to that?

Maureen Clough (02:14.263)

yes. That I unfortunately do know. Yes, indeed. Wish I didn't. Wish I could off-stretch on that one, like to be under the sand. How am I doing? Fabulous. Just so well. I've never been better. What about you guys? I mean, it's amazing to be living in a world where like one headline just beats the last in terms of absolute mayhem. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (02:21.193)

Yeah, and how are we all coping about that?

Joel Cheesman (02:27.382)

Mm-hmm.

Maureen Clough (02:43.187)

World War III marching on our door. It's awesome.

Joel Cheesman (02:44.257)

Yeah, it's great. It's I love I love a government that ignores the Constitution. Now granted, we've been doing that for a very long time. But at least at least last time we did this, we went in front of Congress and lied about weapons of mass destruction, at least got some consensus that way. This time we just said screw it and went in. So I think I think this is a very, very bad situation. I don't. If we could have secured the Strait of Hormuz, we would have done it by now.

Maureen Clough (02:48.607)

Yeah, me too. Solid. Right.

Maureen Clough (02:58.526)

Mmm, yeah.

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (03:12.011)

but I don't think we have an answer for the drones, for the mines, for the missiles, for the speed boats packed with explosives. The thing that people are talking about, natural gas, if one of those goes up, it's like a massive explosion. It's a horrific happening. So anyway, I think this is really, really, really bad. We'll see. We'll see.

Maureen Clough (03:37.803)

Kind of a perfect storm.

JT ODonnell (03:39.245)

disagree. Yeah, I don't I don't disagree. just I almost feel this is scary. But I almost feel like they're sitting there with this big map of the world. And they've got all these little things of like, I'm just gonna say the powers to be. They've got the massive Yes. And they're staring at this thing. And it's like, the game of life mop monopoly, battleship and risk all into one and they're like, Hey, what? Just what if we did this over here?

Joel Cheesman (03:50.837)

Who's they?

Just, okay, the Illuminati on Epstein Island, yeah.

Maureen Clough (03:56.779)

The mobsters that you mentioned.

Joel Cheesman (04:04.086)

Yeah.

JT ODonnell (04:09.346)

How do you think it would affect the economy? Let's just do that. That's what it feels like to me. Let's do it because we can and let's see what happens. It's crazy to me.

Joel Cheesman (04:12.353)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (04:19.679)

Well, know, the thing about risk that's interesting is you don't build alliances in risk. it's just nations killing each other basically and you try to grow your nation bigger than the others. We're dealing with situation now, like there's a axis of China, North Korea, Russia, Iran that would love the West to die.

JT ODonnell (04:27.886)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (04:43.339)

China stood there and saw Venezuela taken off the map if we're talking about risk. If they get Iran taken off the map, it's really, really bad for China. They become like boxed in, they're energy dependent on America pulling the strings. So China has a extreme interest in Iran not failing in this war. again, I don't see, this is gonna end badly. I'm very scared, very fearful.

JT ODonnell (05:02.731)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (05:08.79)

I don't disagree. just can't believe the way that it almost feels cavalier. Does that make sense? Like the way that they're, they went into this, like you said, no getting in front of Congress. No, just, it just feels like we can, why not? You know, it's crazy.

Maureen Clough (05:17.355)

100 % definition of Cavalier.

Maureen Clough (05:24.051)

it's.

Joel Cheesman (05:24.097)

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. JT, that's what's going on here.

Maureen Clough (05:27.115)

It's wild and dark humor is one of the only thing that's getting me by right now. it's, I just saw something on the onion the other day that was so incredibly funny. And I'm just gonna read it to you right now. says, FBI uncovers al-Qaeda plots. Just sit back and enjoy the collapse of the United States. That pretty much nails it. own goal.

JT ODonnell (05:27.15)

Amen.

Joel Cheesman (05:33.249)

All right.

Joel Cheesman (05:36.971)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (05:48.195)

Yeah. Did you, and if you go watch SNL this past weekend, they did a skit on a press meeting. did you see that one? I died. Yeah, you gotta go see it. He's basically out there going, mm-hmm. Yep. yeah, go watch it.

Joel Cheesman (05:49.953)

It's fun.

Maureen Clough (05:51.381)

Dark.

Joel Cheesman (05:57.686)

Yeah.

Maureen Clough (05:58.379)

I love that. No, I haven't, but I really want to now.

Joel Cheesman (06:00.747)

Sure.

The upside down keg stand, yeah. Yeah, it's all good.

Maureen Clough (06:06.571)

God, is it Colin Jost as Pete Hegseth? Like, what's up dillweeds? I love that guy, man. He's so funny. So funny.

Joel Cheesman (06:12.235)

Yes. Yeah. What's your name? Jessica still single or whatever it was. Yeah. Like, yeah, that is my name. Well, something positive. It's, it's, it's, it's women's month, huh? Like in your two women last I checked, like, is this a thing or no, you're welcome.

JT ODonnell (06:13.046)

Yes, yes, yes, that is literally it. Yeah.

Maureen Clough (06:17.355)

Thank God for these people.

Maureen Clough (06:25.887)

Yay. Yeah. I mean, I couldn't be more thrilled. Yeah. So much. Yeah. Sure. Yay. Awesome. Matriarchy now is what I'll say to that. Matriarchy now. It's time. I'm ready.

JT ODonnell (06:28.91)

Wow, thanks Joel. Thank you for that.

Joel Cheesman (06:38.497)

Okay, all right.

Matriarchy now. Are you saying that women in power wouldn't have led us down this road of destruction?

Maureen Clough (06:48.323)

Exactly precisely that. No mother. I mean, my gosh, absolutely not. Nope. We would not be here. It's a lot of big egos, big swinging you know what.

JT ODonnell (06:48.79)

I mean, that goes without saying. That goes without saying. Mm-mm. Yep.

Joel Cheesman (06:55.105)

All right, before we slide into absolute misery, let's get into some shout outs, shall we?

JT ODonnell (07:01.025)

you

Maureen Clough (07:06.259)

All right, guys, I gotta save us from this a little bit. right, dark humor, guys. Disappointing Affirmations is my shout out. This is a book that has been created on the back of an Instagram account by a guy named Dave Tarnowski. It is absolutely hilarious. It makes me laugh every single day. And I just purchased it at my local bookstore. And they even have the cover that you can fold out to be a full-blown poster. So it's like the opposite of one of those stupid corporate motivational posters.

Joel Cheesman (07:07.179)

Mo, bring us back. Walk us off the ledge.

Maureen Clough (07:34.939)

And it is amazing. So that's why I said unfollow your dreams as my middle name, because this guy has been inspiring me. One of my favorites, I'm just gonna read to you, have a panic attack. You've earned it. And for those of you who are not watching on YouTube, all of these different sayings have this beautiful sort of natural background, things that you would see like, you know, an eagle soaring in the background on a corporate poster. Don't let anybody, don't let anyone make you feel bad about yourself. That's your job and nobody does it better. That's another.

Amazing one. Ask the universe for guidance. Ask the universe for guidance. Then just go and do whatever stupid shit you were going to do anyway. I mean, it's just brilliant. So if you want to laugh, I highly recommend this.

Joel Cheesman (08:18.143)

Nice, I like to laugh. And thank God there's someone still reading books out there. Thank you, Mo, for that. I appreciate it. I appreciate it.

Maureen Clough (08:19.083)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, you know, this is one is, it's a real, mean, 600 pages, very dense, you know.

Joel Cheesman (08:30.049)

Nice. All right. I'm going to my shout out. My shout out is to Evie Talls. I think it's the first time we've said that on the show. If it's on your bingo card, please mark it off. It's electric vehicles that are takeoff and landing. So these are the flying cars, I guess, if you've watched the Jetsons out there. Some of the brands you may or may not know are Joby,

Maureen Clough (08:30.367)

Really academic. Yep, intellectual pursuit.

Maureen Clough (08:51.335)

You

Joel Cheesman (08:56.851)

Archer, another one called Beta. These are public companies, by the way. You can check them out. But anyway, they've just got approved to start flying in, I think, 26 states. So we talk a lot about on this show how jobs are being lost, how, you know, misery and this, you know, the landscape is full of disappointing and depressing stories. To me, this is an example of technology creating new opportunities.

I have no doubt that rich people in New York, Chicago, LA are going to fly these things to the airport from wherever their office is. This is going to be like a luxury thing. I don't want to sit in traffic. So anytime you have luxury experiences, you have the concierge, you have a pilot, you have food service, you have marketing and sales, have, by the way, these things have to land on buildings. So there's going to be more places where they can.

Maureen Clough (09:33.483)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (09:52.189)

take off and land and that's going to be a business opportunity. it's kind of cool that we have these things sort of in the pipeline, but I think it's a great example of look, new jobs are going to be created and things like this are going to be sort of the tip of the spear of new opportunities being created. So my shout out goes to the folks that are doing EvieTalls. EvieTalls.

JT ODonnell (10:17.358)

I'm so happy, first of all, I'm so happy you said that, but also Joel, it's just so positive of you. You feeling okay over there? like, what? Just saying, what, right? Like, I know, you feeling okay? So my shout out.

Maureen Clough (10:17.504)

Maureen Clough (10:26.12)

What's gotten into you?

Maureen Clough (10:31.612)

Hahahaha

Joel Cheesman (10:32.478)

I don't feel like my shout outs are generally doom and despair. That usually comes later in the show. So I'm just I'm setting you guys up for don't worry. The angry white guys coming out at some point. Don't worry.

Maureen Clough (10:37.387)

They usually are, they're usually around fast food, right?

JT ODonnell (10:39.086)

Yeah, no, but I love the hopefulness of that one. I do, I love it, I love it.

Maureen Clough (10:44.011)

Is it coming?

JT ODonnell (10:48.014)

That sounds more accurate. There's Joel. There he is. he is. Yeah, so I know you brought it up last week. You talked about the McDonald's CEO, but I'm bringing it up again this week because as everyone saw, everybody jumped on the bandwagon, right? Like, you know, every executive out there decided to do their version, right? And this is just that moment when I love saying I told you so, because I think

Maureen Clough (10:51.158)

That's such a good sound. Yeah, there he is. He's back.

Joel Cheesman (10:54.305)

All right, JT, what you got?

Joel Cheesman (11:07.734)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (11:17.237)

Okay.

JT ODonnell (11:18.346)

In the over a year straight that I've been on here, I've been telling you what executives need to do video, executives need to do video, CEOs like you need to be out there branding yourself so that if some particular video doesn't land right, the whole world isn't making that first impression of you, which is what happened, right? But now everybody's jumping on it and going, wait, we get attention? This is fun, people listen to us, we sell product?

Joel Cheesman (11:26.571)

Mm-hmm.

Maureen Clough (11:43.679)

You

Joel Cheesman (11:45.985)

Uh huh. Uh huh.

Maureen Clough (11:47.828)

Hahaha

JT ODonnell (11:48.035)

guess what you're gonna see now, thanks to that, I mean, he tried, he went first, I'm backing him for that reason. But now, they're all gonna do it. They're all going to do it after we've been saying forever. Like, now they see the benefits and they're all going to do it. So if this is what took it to get executives there, fine, but it's about dang time, you know?

Maureen Clough (11:55.819)

There you go. Gotta start somewhere,

Joel Cheesman (12:08.353)

That's interesting. So if you haven't been watching, the CEO of McDonald's tasted their new Whopper, whatever, Supreme, Big Arch, and got just killed for it looking like he's never had a hamburger before, like he's not CEO of McDonald's. mean, totally awkward, totally nerdy. It was bad. And I have a theory that it was a Psyop. It was like someone in marketing going, wouldn't it be genius?

Maureen Clough (12:15.691)

you

JT ODonnell (12:16.344)

Product, product, the product.

Maureen Clough (12:29.165)

Maureen Clough (12:34.933)

love this theory.

Joel Cheesman (12:37.323)

Wouldn't it be genius if we had our nerdy CEO take a taste of this and talk about how great it is. And he may or may not have have known that, but I think they knew this was going to be ridiculed and this guy was going to take a hit. And I guarantee you they're going to sell more big arches because of this. And this thing has been on social media ad nauseum. Like I see reviews for this all over. Now, granted, I get a lot of fast food cause that's my algo, but I'm sure a lot of you have seen people tasting this. but.

JT ODonnell (13:04.206)

Oh, 100%. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (13:06.539)

JT's right, like it's gonna sell burgers. It's gonna like build brand. They're gonna have to come up with new products like all the time now. Cause you can't just buy it on a quarter pounder every month and go, it's the same quarter pounder. So we're gonna have to see like all kinds of new products.

JT ODonnell (13:15.886)

Yeah.

Maureen Clough (13:20.139)

So true.

JT ODonnell (13:23.82)

no, no, Joel, it's gonna be the series. He's gonna go flip a burger. He's gonna go show how he makes the fries. He's gonna go sit with people in the, no, exactly, they're not gonna reinvent the wheel. They're gonna go take stuff from undercover bosses and run with it. I don't think he, they might have known, but I don't think they told him because CEOs have way too big egos.

Maureen Clough (13:25.515)

You

Maureen Clough (13:31.967)

Undercover bosses.

Joel Cheesman (13:40.03)

Okay.

Joel Cheesman (13:47.115)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (13:47.117)

This is the biggest hiccup I run into, right? As I coach executives every day on doing video and they're like, I don't wanna look stupid. I'm like, you're gonna look stupid until you do this, right? Like you're gonna do it a few times and then we'll make it public.

Maureen Clough (13:53.707)

You will.

Joel Cheesman (13:55.305)

Okay, so he, what was the conversation when he went into marketing and goes, my God, people hate me and they're making fun of me, delete this now. What was that conversation like?

JT ODonnell (14:09.606)

No, whoa. Roll back a little bit, okay? He goes to them and says, I think I should probably do some video of me eating the sandwich, right? And they're like, all right, he does it, it's horrible. But because nobody wants to tell the king that he looks bad, they're all like, awesome, go, all right? They put, you know I'm right, they put him out there, it bombs. He comes back and goes, everyone's making fun of me. And the spin is, but look at the numbers. Don't you want us to increase social?

Maureen Clough (14:10.315)

Ha!

Joel Cheesman (14:18.634)

huh.

Maureen Clough (14:21.041)

Ha!

my god, that is so rad. Yep. I do. I know you're right.

Joel Cheesman (14:30.849)

Mm-hmm.

Maureen Clough (14:35.815)

Whoops. Yep. my God. You're so right.

JT ODonnell (14:38.698)

You did what you wanted us to do. And now a week later, it's blowing up. you know, somebody maybe got yelled at for a hot minute, but they set him up for success, failing forward, if you will. My advice is get yourself on freaking camera, record yourself until you're comfortable, and then have somebody like us look at it before you go public. I'm just saying and then you'll be fine. But everyone's going to have to be on video. I don't know how many more times I'm gonna have to say this.

Maureen Clough (14:45.759)

Love that.

Joel Cheesman (14:51.722)

Okay.

Maureen Clough (14:52.549)

Beautiful. Fail in public. Yes.

Maureen Clough (15:01.865)

Hahaha!

Maureen Clough (15:06.763)

Yeah, it's looking that way.

JT ODonnell (15:08.142)

You're going to be on video where you like it or not.

Joel Cheesman (15:08.545)

And the good news, as of now, he's not in the Epstein files. So he's at least in the clear on that. Well, from big arches and whoppers to more free stuff, let's hear from our friend, Stephen McGrath.

JT ODonnell (15:13.422)

It's clear. Yeah, for now.

Maureen Clough (15:22.848)

good

Joel Cheesman (16:40.961)

By the way, our friend Stephen, I think, poured some scotch in his eyes recently. He's dealing with sort of a red eye issue. So shout out to him. Hope he gets well soon.

Maureen Clough (16:48.619)

Why? Why did he do that?

JT ODonnell (16:49.113)

Feel better.

Joel Cheesman (16:55.819)

Sorry, Mo, what?

Maureen Clough (16:57.365)

Why did he pour scotch in his eyes?

Joel Cheesman (17:00.285)

I'm joking about the poor and the ice. Have you not done this show long enough to know that sarcasm is my love language? He's yes. He has an eye thing. He's sure struggling. like a, like a red eye virus things, Scottish more disease. don't know. Loch Ness monster bit him. I don't know. I don't know. Mo something's wrong.

Maureen Clough (17:01.963)

Oh, okay. Now I'm like, what are you talking about? I was like, hmm.

Maureen Clough (17:10.899)

An eye thing, like what, like pink eye or something? sounds not fun. Not fun. I was like, is that some medicinal thing that people do that I've just not been aware of? All right. Okay. All right. I blew it. I blew it. I blew it. My bad. I'll just it.

JT ODonnell (17:21.199)

You

Joel Cheesman (17:26.241)

I was trying to have a tinder moment and you ruined it.

Joel Cheesman (17:34.431)

All right. Travel wise, it looks like Chad, who's I think moving into his permanent residence in Portugal, not an Airbnb is going to be in Hertfordshire at the RLX conference. He'll be powered by our friends at Shaker recruitment marketing, by the way, make sure you check those guys out. They're doing some great stuff as always. Are you guys ready to get into some topics?

JT ODonnell (17:41.721)

Yeah. Yeah.

Maureen Clough (17:44.789)

Damn, what a trendsetter.

Maureen Clough (18:03.147)

Sure am.

JT ODonnell (18:03.982)

Yes.

Joel Cheesman (18:09.705)

All right, stop me if you've heard this one before. The resume is dead. A recent article from Business Insider is blowing up your social medias. The traditional resume is losing its value according to the story as hiring managers increasingly prioritize skills and enthusiasm over credentials. This shift is partly driven by the rise of AI generated applications, which make it difficult to distinguish between qualified and unqualified candidates.

Maureen Clough (18:12.715)

A couple times.

Joel Cheesman (18:36.435)

As a result, employers are exploring alternative methods like work trials, skills-based hiring, and leveraging platforms like LinkedIn to identify and evaluate potential hires. I guess it's going to be Slop that kills the resume, not video or anything else. The author of the story is apparently Moe's BFF, so I'll let Moe start out with her opinion on the death of the resume.

Maureen Clough (18:58.037)

Best day.

Yeah, I mean, we've been hearing it here from JT for quite some time. And the author of this particular piece is Amanda Hoover over at Business Insider. And she put something out on LinkedIn that was like, I want to talk about this. And I was like, I'm not just the person for you. So I put her together with JT who appears in this story, which is fantastic. But yeah, I mean, this is something that in one hand really brings music to my ears because let me tell you, I hate nothing more than formatting it resume. It is

JT ODonnell (19:01.166)

Yeah.

Maureen Clough (19:28.837)

the worst, most frustrating thing on planet Earth. I cannot get the fonts right. I cannot get the stupid bullet points to line up. Microsoft Word is the... I just despise it. So I'm happy that we can throw that out the window. I do think that there's just so much, like you said, AI sloth out there that these are all becoming interchangeable so as to become essentially meaningless. And there is a problem for recruiters in absorbing a gazillion different resumes coming in. There have all been...

created via AI. It's just, it's meaningless. And so I think it really, it harkens back to the concept that we are entering an era where your soft skills are going to be the most important things of all. And you're able to demonstrate that with other things than a resume, right? Like a resume does not do that for you whatsoever. One thing that I do think this is emblematic of as well is that this whole sort of career system is really breaking down. Like we're in this sort of moment where stability is changing.

and all the old rules and all the old playbooks are just falling apart right now because the world is changing so fast. So it used to be, know, like build experience, get your resume, submitted online, like we were told to apply online. Like that was how you got a job. And now it's really becoming all about who you know, a network and whatnot, which has always been, in my opinion, the best way to get a job, but has its own issues as well. Because if you are relying on, you know, these networks that puts certain people at a disadvantage that creates, you know, these sort of

Joel Cheesman (20:45.643)

Mm-hmm.

Maureen Clough (20:53.513)

echo chambers that creates certain clubs that people can't really access. And so it makes, it makes a problem and bias along the way. but yeah, this is, know, the world of work is just changing. It's such a clip. It's insane. But I think JT's right. mean, people are going to have to start getting more comfortable with video. And, know, it's, it's something that I think really can personalize an application. can, you're going to meet them in person anyway, at some point, right? So I think.

The concern that I have around it is more about like, who are we blocking out? Who are we not going to allow access to these networks because of the fact that it's becoming so much more network based and those systems are just shifting so quickly.

Joel Cheesman (21:36.587)

Bringing the red meat. All right, JT, you can't wait to speak, go.

Maureen Clough (21:39.711)

You

JT ODonnell (21:44.507)

think you need to go back on all the shows I've ever been on here for the last two years, and I'm pretty sure on at least two of them, you have made fun of me when I've said the resume is dead and is dying, and everybody's like, it's never gonna go away. Everyone's always said this. It's dead, it's dead. Be clear, it's dead. And so it made me so happy when Amanda reached out, and it was great to see. She did an amazing job on the article, but.

Maureen Clough (22:00.073)

You called it.

Maureen Clough (22:11.787)

She really did.

JT ODonnell (22:12.302)

You know, the thing about all the new ways, skills-based hiring, you know, it's not who you know anymore. So I think the big fear about this is that it's going to completely end up being about my network, who I know. It's actually not who you know anymore, it's who knows you. So let that sink in for a minute. The more people that know the work that you do, the more opportunities you will get. It is that simple. And if a picture is worth a thousand words, a video is worth a million. So all these people that say,

Maureen Clough (22:29.141)

like that twist.

JT ODonnell (22:41.038)

I'm not gonna sit and watch a video resume. You're a liar. I'm calling every recruiter out on this show right now that sits there and tells me, I'm not gonna look at, guess what? You do it every day. It's called social media, nice try. And on top of that, we're not teaching people to say, hi, I have 15 years experience in. We're teaching people how to talk about the problems they solve and the pain they alleviate and how they do that. That is interesting because that's the dang thing you ask in an interview. So to your point, Mo, video is the new interview.

Maureen Clough (22:45.579)

you

Maureen Clough (22:52.171)

You

JT ODonnell (23:09.454)

Video is the new phone screen. Video is the new recruiter assessment, and it's more powerful and it's more effective. And if that isn't enough, let me tell you one more thing. As someone who's been teaching people how to do video for two years, you wanna know who's getting jobs with it? People in their 50s and 60s. Because they can get on video and they can talk with knowledge and tell stories and explain how they do things. The younger generations can't. So where video's really helping is not your little tech savvy

you know, Gen Zers, it's actually the late millennials, Gen Xers, and the boomers who are saying, I got nothing to lose at this point, why don't I get on video and tell them how I'd solve it? So there you go. So all of you who have been in denial, you're wrong. You're wrong.

Maureen Clough (23:40.455)

You

Maureen Clough (23:47.339)

Let's go!

Joel Cheesman (23:55.531)

So because some Joey Bagadona, it's journalist at Business Insider writes that it's dead, it needs clicks and views. And you think that makes you right? JT.

Maureen Clough (24:04.011)

What? Ooh, I don't know this Joey bag of donuts term, but I'm pretty sure it's pejorative and Amanda's an excellent reporter. We all got it. Hey, it's the Trojan horse. We all got to have a headline that's going to bring people in, right? That is the name of the game. So don't slam her. We...

JT ODonnell (24:07.661)

WHAAHAHA

JT ODonnell (24:11.82)

WHAAAT

JT ODonnell (24:17.334)

Mm-hmm. Bring it y'all.

JT ODonnell (24:28.878)

Wait, by the way, coming from the guy, wait, coming from the guy who hasn't had a resume in how long and will never use one again, right? You'll never use a resume again, Joel, but okay.

Joel Cheesman (24:30.413)

Mo's not done.

Joel Cheesman (24:38.017)

I haven't even said anything yet. You're lucky it's Women's Month. I'm letting you guys get a word in. Go on Mo, you wanna pile in, let's go.

Maureen Clough (24:44.323)

snap, snap. Well, I have a friend who was a creator and she was gonna partner with this bigger, sort of more old school company and they asked her for a resume and she was like, I don't have a freaking resume. Like you're trying to do a brand partnership with me. Why the hell do you want my resume? And they were like, it's just for the system blah, blah, And so she like fished something out from years ago. And did you know what it was like?

Joel Cheesman (24:58.783)

Mm-hmm.

Maureen Clough (25:08.095)

here you go, completely irrelevant, has nothing to do with what I do today or what you wanna do with me. But it's still, it's like one of those hallmarks of yesteryear that's gonna continue to sort of dissipate over time, I would imagine. It is worthless at this point when you consider all the slop and all of the customization that people are doing just by like plopping in a job description and then having AI tell you exactly how your resume should be so as to appeal to the recruiter who is never going to see your resume because they've ate

JT ODonnell (25:22.65)

Worthless.

Maureen Clough (25:37.493)

billion in front of them already. So I mean, some things got to change. And I think it's good. It's really heartwarming to hear that you're seeing an uptick in people who are older, who are actually doing the video willingly. I will say I did have an experience just a year ago where we were trying to ask people to give us sort of a video application, if you will, where we wanted them to send one or two minutes of why they wanted to join this specific thing. And one person out of a hundred who got it did it.

JT ODonnell (25:49.69)

Big time.

Maureen Clough (26:06.737)

only one. And when people reached out and we were like, why aren't you doing the final step here? They're like, I didn't want to do a video. So it sounds like it's going to be, it's shifted a lot since then, which is really, it's compelling. I'm glad to hear that. It's great.

JT ODonnell (26:19.928)

Yeah, yeah, get desperate enough and you'll do things you said you weren't gonna do, right? So it's going to force people, they're not gonna have a choice. By the way, pro tip, LinkedIn's owned by Microsoft. Do you need a resume? Just go hit the PDF feature on your LinkedIn profile. Done, it's turned into a resume. So if you really need one, there you go. There you go.

Maureen Clough (26:22.795)

Good point. Sad. That's where we are. Yeah.

Maureen Clough (26:32.21)

Indeed.

Maureen Clough (26:36.107)

Boom! Wait, that's fantastic, love. Great.

Joel Cheesman (26:39.029)

Well, well, thank you for making my argument for me, JT. I may not have a resume, but I sure as hell have a LinkedIn profile that can easily become a resume. here's old guys coming out ready. Uh, in 2013, it's, still searchable. Uh, I wrote an article entitled this reinventing the resume thing needs to stop. When I wrote it, a company called beyond.com

JT ODonnell (26:48.666)

There you go.

Maureen Clough (26:53.21)

boy.

Maureen Clough (27:02.411)

Joel Cheesman (27:06.145)

which has since become Next.com with two X's, had a new product called Career Portfolio, which was basically rewriting the resume or reinventing the resume. Another company at the time was out called Career Cloud. Both of these companies are gone in some form or fashion, and we keep doing this. We keep saying video is going to take it over. We keep saying pictures and portfolios and PDFs and like, put your life in there is going to take this over.

JT ODonnell (27:07.259)

yeah.

Joel Cheesman (27:35.581)

standards exist because they work. Having standards means the same wheels on my car are the same wheels on your car and those standards are solid for a reason. The resume is a standard that we all play by. When you submit an application to an ATS, and every company has one last time I checked, you typically submit a application which is your resume. I will accept the argument that if you're a frontline worker, you don't have a resume, then that's an issue.

They would accept a resume if you had a resume. They don't say submit your last social media video to apply to this job. They say submit your application slash resume. Now, part of my argument in this was that recruiters scan a resume and within three to six seconds know your fit or not. If you started putting videos and pictures and everything else, it creates more time for a recruiter, which makes a standardized

Maureen Clough (28:14.069)

Some do.

JT ODonnell (28:14.84)

Yet. Yet.

Joel Cheesman (28:35.315)

standardized resume more, more efficient. I will throw you guys some pearls and say AI has changed the game because AI enables you to scan a resume, no matter if it's a book or a real resume, whatever it is, if AI can scan it and AI can scan video as well, but AI can look at a video and tell you what content is in it, what text is in it. So I, I will give you that.

The world is such now that I think you still need a resume, but I also agree that you can do an alternative to that and probably be successful. The tales of the resume's death are quite exaggerated. It still is part of every, I think, job seekers game plan and should be for the long term. But I will give you the fact that if we go to a world where agents talk to agents, we don't need anything.

like, just scan the world scan the web and your agent knows everything about you and you can like get that that world may come and I agree that it probably will but like even then you will still have a LinkedIn profile. And if I want to know if I just met JT and I want to know about her, I go to LinkedIn, I see where she went to school where she live where she worked what she do who she investing in who she advising like I can't go to her social media and easily see

Maureen Clough (29:39.883)

It's scary.

Maureen Clough (29:53.355)

Yeah, sure.

Joel Cheesman (30:01.901)

here's where she went to school and here's what she does and here's here's the job. So that format is here to stay kids. I'm sorry.

Maureen Clough (30:02.987)

True, you need a placeholder, yeah.

JT ODonnell (30:10.0)

All right, okay, can we, yeah, no, That's all nuance, okay? You just went from resume to format. Two totally different things, brother. Okay, first of all, a LinkedIn, you're right, has a format. You know what LinkedIn has? A place for me to add all the things that I'm learning and doing and interested in. You know what resumes suck at? They suck at me showing you what I wanna do in the future.

Maureen Clough (30:10.091)

It doesn't mean it's not here to stay. It just means lesser importance, right? Right.

Joel Cheesman (30:25.121)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (30:30.826)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (30:36.324)

When I give you a resume, the only thing you as a recruiter are gonna evaluate me on is what I've done in the past. What if I don't wanna do that anymore, which is the vast majority of people, right? We wanna evolve and grow. So resumes put you in a box. Secondly, I'm kinda sad to hear you say, yes, we need it so we can standardize everybody and just check that they can do the job. How many times have we placed somebody who on the resume didn't look qualified, but actually really was? Those people never get a shot when you use resumes. So resume out, I'm with you.

Joel Cheesman (30:43.126)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (31:05.944)

Tools like LinkedIn continue, but they take the advantage of AI. Their AI tool right now, their recruitment tool, is getting more sophisticated by the day. The people that are winning on LinkedIn right now are the ones that are talking regularly and consistently about their industry and their skill set. That is how they're being surfaced, and going back to what I said earlier, it is not who you know, it's who knows you. What you want in the future is going to come from you talking about what you know, talking about what you care about, people finding that and saying, you're a fit.

That doesn't happen on a resume. That's why the resume is dead.

Maureen Clough (31:38.655)

And one thing to add to that that really bolsters your point is that everybody has to turn into a salesperson now. That's where we are as a society when we are shifting to optionality, when we're learning that the stability that past careers have offered is really dead and that the responsibility is on us as individuals rather than companies, which used to be sort of the old contract. Now we all have to sell. And so you have to hang that shingle and you've got to get comfortable with doing that.

JT ODonnell (31:46.702)

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Joel Cheesman (31:53.889)

Mm-hmm.

Maureen Clough (32:05.183)

And it's a really tough game for a lot of people for whom this is not in their sort of natural skill sets. But everybody has to start becoming a salesperson to some degree. And I don't mean this in like some toxic hustle culture sort of way. It's just about insurance. It's career insurance. And so this aspect is really, it's important. So a resume is doing less of the sales for you than ever before.

Joel Cheesman (32:31.647)

I think both can be true. If I see JT's video on social, I'm interested. She seems smart and knows what she's talking about. Inevitably, I'm going to go to her profile and dig into what her resume slash profile says. So I think there's a world where, where we're both right on this, but there was a time where I did not believe I did not have, I did not believe the video and the pictures and the stuff would work. AI is changing my opinion on that. you know, there is.

Maureen Clough (32:33.984)

Sure.

JT ODonnell (32:44.176)

Mm-hmm. He keeps doing that.

Maureen Clough (32:50.505)

love that.

JT ODonnell (32:59.696)

We'll get you over here eventually, Joel. It's just a matter of time. We'll get you here.

Maureen Clough (33:02.635)

You

Hahaha!

Joel Cheesman (33:06.805)

Well, thankfully the, AI is telling us what jobs will be there in the future and which ones won't. Our next story from Anthropic, new research from them reveals that while AI can theoretically handle many tasks, its actual usage in workplaces is less severe than expected. Jobs most exposed to AI automation include computer programmers, customer service reps, and data entry workers. The study also highlights that high exposure workers tend to be older.

more educated and better paid, challenging the notion that AI will primarily impact lower wage workers. JT, in your newsletter, which I read and everyone else should as well, you said that Anthropic Study, quote, stopped me in my tracks and made me rethink everything I tell my clients, end quote. Say more.

JT ODonnell (33:55.989)

Yeah. So we knew that AI was going to take over these tasks. They've predicted the amount of tasks that it would take over. And people keep saying it's going to take jobs. Well, it takes enough of the tasks off the plate that we just don't need as many of you. And the sooner people start to realize, if I'm in one of those jobs, then it doesn't matter how much I coach you, if the sheer volume of those jobs are going away, your ability to get and keep one of those jobs is going to get infinitely harder.

no matter how much I coach you on that. And so for me, it became a mission to start talking to people about you have to be the brain behind the bots. Going forward, if you aren't thinking about AI is like a big toolbox in front of you. Everyone gets the same toolbox, but it's the person that can take out the hammer and the screwdriver and the drill and create the masterpiece that's going to win. It's really going to start to become about craftsmanship.

And so the people that I'm talking to every day, like, what do you know about AI? And not just, hey, I play with chat GPT. Like literally, what are the AI tools in your space? Go look them up, go understand them, go start to think about how you'd stack them together, use as much as you can. Because what's really amazing, and when I was at Talent Connect, the study shows 60 % of employees right now are waiting around for their company to tell them what they should learn about AI. 100 % of companies have said, that's not our job.

Joel Cheesman (35:04.565)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (35:20.536)

Right? We pay you. Go figure it out. In fact, we're going to go clean house as we've watched how many companies do since the first of the year. And we're going to go look for people that have some sort of inkling or at least are talking like a craftsman or a craftswoman. And that those are the people that are at least showing that they want to learn AI, build something, do great things with AI, because I really do believe I'm like you in terms of going forward. There are going to be some amazing careers, some amazing companies. We're going to go into the whole second.

Maureen Clough (35:27.349)

bazillions.

Joel Cheesman (35:46.177)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (35:49.423)

Renaissance a digital Renaissance driven by AI. It's just not happening today We're in the painful contraction phase for another 12 18 months, but then it's gonna feel like overnight We're gonna wake up and there's gonna be nothing in the news But crazy new cool awesome companies that people are gonna go I never dreamed I could figure out how to do that But I came with AI the question is are you gonna be on the early side of that and reap the rewards? Are you gonna continue to stick your head in the sand and say well? I just want to get through the last 10 years of my career, you know and not have to learn this stuff You're not gonna last 10 years

Joel Cheesman (36:19.126)

Yeah.

JT ODonnell (36:19.386)

You're not gonna last two years, you know? And so that was such, we had to pivot my entire company when we saw this. We were like, we have to be in the business of teaching people how to document themselves and get visible, but also harp on them about AI. Like, and it's working, you know? Guess what? The early adopters that we've been taking through, they're getting the jobs. I just had one woman, she just got hired by a Fortune 100 to keep her confidential, but she went in and they said, you were the only person that answered our questions.

Joel Cheesman (36:35.307)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (36:49.038)

with actual theoretical solutions of how we would use AI. They said, we know we don't have the answers yet, but somebody's gotta be in here and start talking about this using their knowledge. She used her craftsmanship. That to me is so amazing. There's so much opportunity ahead and that excites me, but unfortunately there's gonna be a lot of people that just don't wanna change, they're gonna sit in denial and they're gonna suck.

Joel Cheesman (36:55.393)

Yeah.

Maureen Clough (36:56.831)

Yeah.

Maureen Clough (37:10.955)

Right? Yeah, lots of people sitting on their heels for sure. Well, I mean, the thing is things have shifted. the whole ability for us to rely on a company is gone. It's not the way it used to be. mean, companies used to flesh out these huge training programs. You'd go through like months of training to get into an environment and now they've offloaded all of that responsibility onto the individual. So that...

Joel Cheesman (37:12.991)

Well...

JT ODonnell (37:15.364)

Right? Yep.

Maureen Clough (37:38.939)

That is something that we need to do to shore up our defenses against being pushed out. That is, my gosh, what? Hello? This is amazing.

Chad Sowash (37:49.63)

I thought I would pop in and say hi. Literally, I didn't.

Joel Cheesman (37:53.547)

Chad is in the house everybody.

Maureen Clough (37:53.973)

my gosh, that is fantastic. What an amazing cameo appearance. I'm so glad you're here.

Chad Sowash (37:59.998)

Guest.

Joel Cheesman (38:00.673)

What's up, dude? Are you your new place? You need permanent residence?

Chad Sowash (38:03.778)

I am not. still in my buddy's place. We're moving in later this weekend, but just getting everything pulled together. Everything pulled together, but we're safe.

Maureen Clough (38:12.747)

That is awesome.

Joel Cheesman (38:13.697)

What inspired you to pop in? You have an opinion, I'm sure, on something. We're on the anthropic research around what careers are going to go away and which ones aren't. I don't know if you've seen that story or not.

Chad Sowash (38:17.406)

Yeah, I don't know what you're talking about, but yeah, I'm sure.

Chad Sowash (38:28.722)

I have, I think it's all bullshit. I mean, there's no surprise. I don't think that most of the tech industry knows what the hell that they're talking about. They push out a lot of information, a lot of it's propaganda. Yeah, a lot of it's just BS to be able to drive that AI is taking jobs when literally they were still bloated from pandemic. Yeah, it's hard.

Maureen Clough (38:32.075)

You

Maureen Clough (38:42.985)

No, make it up as I go along. Yes.

Maureen Clough (38:56.645)

Literally my new episode is about that today. Literally that AI is cover for layoffs and creating the resetting of the labor market. That is literally it. But yes, so I'm with you. You have to always consider the source. You have to know why someone's saying this. How does it behoove them to have this message go out to the public? So use critical thinking skills. know Americans don't like to, but we really need to. But again, what JT said about like responsibility and stuff is true. This is just a fundamental shift in how

Chad Sowash (39:18.388)

Hahaha

Joel Cheesman (39:20.363)

Well, I also think it's.

Maureen Clough (39:25.163)

people need to view the way in which they work at companies and what kind of responsibility the companies have to them versus what you have to the company. It's just shifting.

Joel Cheesman (39:36.257)

There's a lot of unintended consequences in this. They talk about the face-to-face jobs are still going to flourish. And I think there's a level of they'll flourish in part because of AI. I talked about the legal profession, I think, last week. Yes, no one's going to go into court with algorithms and figure out a case. That's not going to happen. But on the other side, the only thing stopping more lawsuits is the ability to scale

you know filing lawsuits, which AI will actually spur more lawsuits. So you have a situation where AI on one end is creating more work for lawyers. You have lawyers not being displaced by AI. Oh my god, we might wake up one day and go we need more lawyers. We never saw that coming. More salespeople. There might be more face to face. We might get to a world where

Maureen Clough (40:22.323)

Yeah, it's true.

Joel Cheesman (40:29.663)

the AI salespeople getting leads and generating a in the funnel with people means we need more salespeople because no one's going to buy from a robot, but we're getting more leads and people in the funnel. So I think a lot of the narrative around this is a little bit of make believe 90 % theoretically could be all replaced by robots, but who, who in this call thinks that's going to happen? it's going to, it's going to be messy. It's going to be awkward, but I, but I think

JT ODonnell (40:37.264)

close the deals.

Maureen Clough (40:40.789)

People by people.

Maureen Clough (40:45.727)

Yeah, hear that.

Joel Cheesman (40:56.831)

the doomsayers are probably gonna be on the wrong side of history on AI.

JT ODonnell (41:00.28)

Yeah, but from the get-go, they talked about we'd lose 87 million jobs, but we'd ultimately create 93 million. Like you heard many. So I agree, I just think it's gonna be different though, Joel. Even those jobs as the lawyer jobs or the sales jobs that come back, it's all going to be different, which I'm here for. I think everybody's ready for different types of work. But in this time, there's a level of contraction that we're just not ready for. mean, companies are saying we can't find the right people. Why want somebody with 10 years of AI experience?

Joel Cheesman (41:05.609)

Yeah, yeah.

Joel Cheesman (41:16.811)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (41:29.178)

They don't exist, you know? And so those kinds of problems are happening right now. They'll sort themselves out and it'll get exciting again. But I think you're naive if you're sitting around thinking you're gonna hang on to your corporate job for the next five, 10 years doing exactly what you're doing now. You are naive if you think that's the case.

Maureen Clough (41:29.351)

You

Joel Cheesman (41:30.326)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (41:46.015)

Yeah. I also mentioned last week that all this, most of the startups that we talk about in our space now are driven by AI, like the slop, the automated post, like all their businesses being created to solve those problems. Just like throughout human history, businesses are created when problems are created. Do any of us think AI is not going to create more problems for the people to kind of figure out and solve? mean, I would bet. Yeah, I would bet. Yeah. The AI is going to fuck shit up and we're going to have to fix it.

Chad Sowash (41:46.056)

Yeah.

JT ODonnell (41:52.912)

Mm-hmm.

Maureen Clough (42:04.745)

Hahahaha

JT ODonnell (42:07.726)

I know it's great.

Maureen Clough (42:08.51)

Yep.

JT ODonnell (42:11.096)

Yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree.

Maureen Clough (42:12.021)

Big time, big time. Buildin' the plane while they fly it, right? Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (42:15.265)

Where's your beer, Chad? It's like five, it's like, what is it, like seven o'clock in Portugal? Where's your beer, man? Okay, all right.

Chad Sowash (42:15.39)

Well guys, I...

Chad Sowash (42:19.908)

Yeah, I know. just wanted to pop in and say hi, hello listeners, and you guys get back to work. I'll talk to you later.

JT ODonnell (42:20.92)

Yeah.

Maureen Clough (42:27.211)

Bye Chad, good to see you.

JT ODonnell (42:27.784)

We will go have a cocktail go get some drinks. Bye Chad

Joel Cheesman (42:29.471)

All right, man. Thanks, Chad.

Chad Sowash (42:30.13)

Later.

Joel Cheesman (42:34.335)

And with that, it's time to take a quick break everybody. If you like what you've heard, please subscribe in your podcast channel of choice. Also check us out on YouTube, youtube.com slash at Chad cheese. We'll be right back.

Joel Cheesman (42:53.089)

All right guys, enough of this job seeker stuff. Let's talk some recruitment software companies. Yeah. A flurry of industry news dropped this week. Here's just a sampling, a higher view acquired higher guide indeed gave us Explorer pages, a LinkedIn engagement declined in 2025. Talvi, one of those resume killers out there got $2 million. And your co raised a series a, but probably the biggest news of the week.

Maureen Clough (42:57.675)

witness.

Joel Cheesman (43:23.093)

was Juicebox raising $80 million at an $850 million valuation. They even did a video talking about the new investment. Check it out.

Maureen Clough (43:32.987)

did they?

Joel Cheesman (43:44.459)

Who are we looking at, Mo, for the listeners? These are social media people, right?

Maureen Clough (43:50.633)

best ones too.

Joel Cheesman (43:52.851)

Okay, we'll get to that after the video.

Maureen Clough (45:29.579)

I totally love this.

Joel Cheesman (45:29.925)

you love this from Juice Box. And I gave you shit for not knowing any mobster movies, but I have no idea who those two dudes were at the beginning. So why don't you educate me on that and give us your hot take on Juice Box.

Maureen Clough (45:36.689)

Yeah. Okay. All right. All right. All right. Let me help you. Let me help you. Okay. Yeah. So this is an amazing announcement commercial. These guys have been so silent on social and I was like, this is so interesting. I wonder why I don't have any posts. It's because they wanted to come in hot with this commercial, which is freaking fabulous. It actually features two of the biggest creators in the tech space, tech comedy space. So you've got Austin Nassau coming on my show soon and

Corporate Bro, aka Ross Pomerantz, who is amazing and he is absolutely hysterical. is tech satire. And these two are the ones at the table. And then enter Corporate Natalie, another huge social media person who is partner with Corporate Bro and a bunch of stuff. Anyway, this is like a masterclass on how to do social media. This is not unlike the way Mom Donnie did social where like the Democrats really need to check in with like.

how Gen Z and how people are doing social media today to get attention. This was really, really brilliant. A huge splash by these guys making this their entry into the social world. This is how people learn about stuff now, right? This is just how the world works. So like hats off to Juice Box for coming in hot with that. I'm sure it costs them a ton of money to get all of those three creators who have millions of followers collectively on this commercial. But yeah, I mean, think, dude, it says it's a testament to what JT is saying, right?

This is a sort of period where we all need to be salespeople, right? We all need to be thinking about how we can attract people to come to us because now you're looking at a hiring system. It's less about us inbound, know, us throwing our resumes into application pools and more about how do we stand out so that people will come to us, right? So this is what this tool allegedly does, right? It goes out and it finds and sources the best candidates. Well, how are you going to stand out?

you have to have some sort of a profile. You have to have some sort of a way of getting yourself out there. I can't wait to see what the tool actually does. haven't seen a demo, if it, mean, again, AI, of course, very, very in the mix, agentic AI in this case too. And obviously we all know that the ghosting candidates is a huge problem. People are incredibly frustrated by this. like this might help people do less of that, which is great.

Maureen Clough (47:54.847)

hopefully find the right people. again, bias is always the thing I worry about.

Joel Cheesman (47:56.773)

I wanna know who the two teenagers in the director's chair were at the end. They weren't the founders, were they? Are those really the founders? I don't believe it. I don't believe it.

Maureen Clough (48:04.359)

They founded it at 19, yes they were. They founded it at 19 and 22. Yeah, 19 and 22. So that's interesting. But yeah, it sounds like a cool tool. It sounds like it might fix some things. I wanna see it. I wanna learn more about it. But good on them. 80 mil, not bad. Sequoia.

Joel Cheesman (48:18.721)

Hmm.

Joel Cheesman (48:22.763)

JT, social media. Did you know these people? Are you as excited as Mo or is this new to you too? Okay.

JT ODonnell (48:28.324)

Yeah, everything she said and then some and it just further validates like I'm gonna be honest though those three social media rock stars I'm sure when this company came and said we're juice box and we want to do this. That's the last gig they thought they were gonna get You know, know, I mean you're not dreaming that some corporate company is gonna come and offer you that kind of money to do that But this is what I mean about the 480 billion dollar knowledge Creator economy knowledge, but the word knowledge in front

Joel Cheesman (48:43.563)

Yeah.

JT ODonnell (48:58.968)

Because now, what Mo said, there are so many people out there right now that if you're just documenting your knowledge and you're out there and putting your voice out there, somebody's going to come along and be like, hey, will you do a commercial for us? Hey, will you do like three or four videos? Only if you believe in our product, but will you do them and we'll pay you? That is coming mainstream. It's been around forever in the other spaces, but it's coming to us now. And that's what gets me super excited about it. Not to mention, what they're doing is genius. They are proving that if you go put yourself out there and document yourself,

We're gonna be able to find you, contact you, hire you. That is the new future. Again, makes a case for you don't need a resume anymore if you got this other stuff out there about yourself, you're gonna be found in other ways. Just gonna say it, right? So I am so here for what Juice Box is doing. I mean, 20 out of 10 for me the way they handled this.

Maureen Clough (49:41.483)

tied together. Yeah.

Maureen Clough (49:50.187)

Masterclass. Something new and different for you, Joel.

Joel Cheesman (49:50.337)

Wow, wow, well, I'm gonna shake things up here, guys.

JT ODonnell (49:55.184)

Shocker.

Joel Cheesman (49:56.479)

All right. All right. I have, I'm going to comment on higher view. but I do want to comment on juice box. And since you guys are so juiced up about it, I'm going to talk about them first. And I think this is the time on the show where

JT ODonnell (50:14.67)

History lesson.

Maureen Clough (50:15.806)

Joel Cheesman (50:16.625)

Okay. Okay, guys, let's take everyone back to a time period around when LinkedIn launched. And sourcing was just becoming a thing and using weird search engines at the time to find needles in a haystack to search about us pages. And then LinkedIn came along and like, how do I search LinkedIn? And then services that were on top of LinkedIn started popping up. You might remember when Intello

you know, became a thing and then Tello was cool because it tapped into LinkedIn, but then it told you, someone just updated their profile. So maybe they're in into a new job. Maybe they're, you know, a good, a good prospect. And then you had like hiring solved and hire tooled and then seek out came along. and like all of these businesses are either gone or they've pivoted hard into something else.

Maureen Clough (50:54.027)

movie.

Joel Cheesman (51:11.711)

Whether it's LinkedIn said, no, you're not going to do that because we are the, the, the Rolodex of, of everything on the internet. We're going to Sue you into oblivion or everyone's using the same database. So it just becomes this race to the bottom where, okay, we're all using the same data. What's separating any of us? Well, nothing. We're just cheaper. No, we're cheaper. Wait a minute. We're cheaper. And just became this race and like, well, we better pivot and be something else and seek out. think it's one of the few that I mentioned that are still around and they are far cry.

Maureen Clough (51:32.778)

you

Joel Cheesman (51:40.917)

from what they used to be. to me, like, sorry, old man, but these guys come along and it's like, what's new? Teenage founders and some social media folks, I, unless you tell me that our data is magic and we have people that no one else has, then I'll buy it. But there, no one's saying that. They're saying, look at our cool social media people and our cool commercial. But at some point, look, young people will say, this is awesome. I'm going to

JT ODonnell (51:41.636)

from what they were.

Joel Cheesman (52:10.613)

pay money to use it, but ultimately there's going to be another juice box competitor if they get successful. And then the same, it's just going to revolve around the same thing. look, I've seen this movie twice, at least it doesn't end well for juice box and it's not going to end well prediction for their investors. This is going to crash and burn. may take a while, but this there's no future in this company.

Maureen Clough (52:36.637)

Wow.

JT ODonnell (52:36.752)

All right, I've got to rebuttal here. You're killing me, you're killing me. Okay, first of all, do you remember this company called MySpace? Do you remember how everybody thought MySpace will be around forever and it'll be the only platform? Okay, this is the very real problem LinkedIn has right now. LinkedIn is the only one of its type where everybody's sitting on there. But you know who can't stand LinkedIn and I work with them all the time? The younger generation. They don't want to be on it. Yet.

Maureen Clough (52:44.151)

You

Joel Cheesman (53:02.049)

They're not going anywhere else. They're not going anywhere else. They're not going to Boom Band. They're not going to Polywork. Polywork's dead too. Polywork was the fun LinkedIn. Okay.

Maureen Clough (53:03.157)

despise. Yeah.

JT ODonnell (53:06.656)

Yet, yet. But what if you don't have to? You're not, you're not listening. Can you just, can you just let me finish? Okay. So if I can be on social or be anywhere and share what I know and what I do, and AI is now sophisticated enough to go out there, it is gonna find me and I'm not on LinkedIn. And by the way, I'm not putting on LinkedIn what I'm putting in other places. So do they have a road ahead of them? Absolutely. But it is myopic.

Maureen Clough (53:09.515)

Polywork dead.

JT ODonnell (53:35.899)

to think that we aren't eventually gonna have somebody that does crack the code and becomes the next LinkedIn, just like Facebook came after MySpace. It's been ripe for a long time. I can't, you don't know that. Okay, but they're not layering it on, they're not being stuck by only pulling off of LinkedIn. It's wrong for you to say that they're not gonna get new people, I disagree, but more importantly, they're gonna go get people who are,

Joel Cheesman (53:47.851)

These guys aren't the next LinkedIn, they're the next people finder. They're not pushing themselves as join us.

JT ODonnell (54:04.876)

incorrectly in other places, meaning their data isn't well represented, say, on LinkedIn, whereas their things that they care about and that they want to do can be represented someplace else. Like, know, large language models are, you know, killed when the data sucks, right? So LinkedIn knows it has a data issue. It has a data quality issue with 1.3 billion profiles. It's why they're working so hard to drive engagement and to get people updated because they know a lot of that data is inaccurate.

But when someone cracks the code and figures out how to go get all of these younger workers and individuals data out there that's fresh and new and updated and not outdated, you got a different data set there. You got a different thing. And then that gets super, super interesting. I don't think you give somebody $80 million who hasn't started to talk about what that looks like. And so I don't know. I don't think they're out. Facts, facts, you're right. And it's a big sum, but I'm.

Joel Cheesman (54:51.295)

Yeah, because investors have never put money in something that failed.

JT ODonnell (55:01.314)

I'm going bullish on the idea that we're going to see some new and exciting things.

Maureen Clough (55:09.163)

We'll just have to see how this all plays out, man.

Joel Cheesman (55:09.789)

No comment. All right, let's move. All right, another quick break, because we're getting a little frothy, a little frothy up in here. Again, we'll be right back, everybody. By the way, leave us a review on your podcast platform of choice. We'd love to hear from you. We'll be right back.

Maureen Clough (55:14.367)

Got my popcorn.

JT ODonnell (55:18.5)

I love it.

Maureen Clough (55:24.287)

Yes, do it.

Maureen Clough (55:33.195)

Should I, should I bounce?

Joel Cheesman (55:34.291)

If you need to bounce, just give them a wee out and then JT and I will fit in the show. All right, everybody, Maureen has to bounce out. Any last words, Maureen?

Maureen Clough (55:39.731)

You guys, okay, so should I like make a deal?

Sorry. Man, I can't wait to hear what you guys say when I'm not in the room. All right. Gotta roll. We out. Bye, guys.

Joel Cheesman (55:50.229)

You're busy. Give us a wee out.

JT ODonnell (55:51.888)

I got your back.

Joel Cheesman (55:56.097)

CMO. And then there were two. This has been a weird show. This has been a weird show. That was weird. He's so needy. Love me. All right, LinkedIn has released their Women in the Workplace survey. New data shows that while women make up 44 % of the global workforce, they hold only 31 % of VP in higher leadership roles.

JT ODonnell (56:00.127)

let's bring it on. I know, Chad popping in like, whoa, just bizarre.

Joel Cheesman (56:23.585)

with momentum stalling at the manager level, particularly in tech and finance. Also highlighted is increased burnout and declining mental health for younger female workers. JT, you're a woman like I mentioned earlier. Help us out here. What's your take on the survey about women in the workplace?

JT ODonnell (56:41.87)

Yeah, I mean, I obviously dug deep into this and they sent it to me in advance. I saw five things that in particular I thought women should be taking note of. First of all, the most obvious one is we can't rely on corporate systems. We never could. But corporate systems as we know it are flattening, right? This idea of a career hierarchy, them understanding our needs, like that's just dying faster and faster. What was really interesting to me is the biggest barrier isn't the C-suite. It's that first promotion.

Joel Cheesman (56:56.128)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (57:11.662)

What the data really showed is that if you're not visible early enough on in your career so that someone sees you and picks you up and helps you move up, you're probably never gonna get to that top. And so it's, when you think about the amount of entry level jobs, for example, that are being wiped out, where are these women going to get seen, noticed, and pulled up to that next level? That's a concern that we have to look at. The career ladder, as we know, is broken. Like they're claiming it's breaking. I'd say been broke for a while.

Joel Cheesman (57:18.411)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (57:40.909)

Women have been leaning out over the last couple of years. The data shows that because they've given up. To me, visibility matters more than ever. That's something you hear me talk about all the time. It's 10 times that for women. It's not who you know, it's who knows you. They don't know what you do. Women love to keep their head down, do a good job, and hope upon hope that someone recognizes the great work they're doing in promoting them. It doesn't work that way. You gotta stop. And then the big one is that you stop thinking like an employee.

Every woman out there that's listening, you're a business of one. You are a service provider. Treat yourself like that. Market yourself like that. Pay attention. Chase the value. Chase the money. When businesses got a business, there's usually a reason. One or more of the things that they couldn't get across the finish line to keep their business in business. Women have to more than ever right now be paying attention to all aspects of the marketing, the business, the sales, the product, the service. And I know that's a lot, but...

Joel Cheesman (58:13.643)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (58:38.862)

That's what it takes these days. So, you know, was a lot of data to take in, but to me that's the reality check.

Joel Cheesman (58:46.805)

Part of it to me, I think the elephant in my head was at the manager level. It's typically an age at which women consider, am I having a child? I like, am I taking that step in my life or am I not? do you agree with that? Am I off base with that? Cause I feel like that's the age when that happens. Like it's either, I want to have a family and do that. I'm going to pull back on my career or more and more women I think are saying,

JT ODonnell (59:05.988)

Not at all and I'll give you a

Joel Cheesman (59:14.325)

you know what, I'm gonna have both or I'm gonna go career.

JT ODonnell (59:17.912)

Yeah, so I have obviously coached a lot of women who come to me somewhere around in their 30s and have their first child. And this is the conversation. JT, I gave them everything. I was working 60 hours a week. I was doing everything. I crushed it, right? I went out on maternity leave. I came back. Now I'm more tightly dialed in. I'm getting more done in 40 hours than I ever did before. But it's because I have this life. So I'm getting even more dialed in. I'm producing. I'm doing great.

I just had my first review and they gave me average, my first average review ever. And I'm so angry because I don't understand. And I said, well, sure, I know why. Because you defined your value off of working 60 hours a week. That's what you did. And then you went and had a child and came back and started working 40 hours a week. So the visual is you aren't doing the same thing you were doing before. Even though we both know you're performing at a higher level and doing more.

Joel Cheesman (59:48.704)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (01:00:07.937)

Huh.

JT ODonnell (01:00:14.02)

But what you set, and this is what I want women to understand, however you define yourself in the workplace, that's what they think they're getting for the paycheck. When you wanna go change it, you changed it on them without permission. That's why a lot of women end up having to leave that job that expected them to do 60 hours, but then shockingly, I'll get them some place where they got a 40 % pay raise and they're like, sure, work 32 hours a week, we love your value. Because they don't have the history of what you used to do.

Joel Cheesman (01:00:23.958)

Mm-hmm.

That's interesting.

JT ODonnell (01:00:41.081)

And so that's why so many women end up having to leave after they've had a child because they have to redefine what value is.

Joel Cheesman (01:00:47.083)

I think that's fascinating because I think the popular narrative would be they're holding her down because she has a child now that she's not as committed or, you know, the, guy who gets promoted is going to work continually as he did before. think the narrative of.

JT ODonnell (01:00:55.288)

Mm-mm.

Joel Cheesman (01:01:06.089)

You were like what you just, what you said, don't think is the popular narrative that's out there. And I think that that point of view, is incredibly powerful. Another thing that I thought of was they talk about in the, in the study that how women are more selective in applying to jobs. They're, they're, they're more hesitant if they don't adhere to a hundred percent of the requirements. Whereas men are like 60 % let's go, you know, let's throw, let's roll the dice. Let's see what happens.

JT ODonnell (01:01:11.084)

No, definitely not.

Joel Cheesman (01:01:35.525)

as a result, women apply to 20 % less jobs. I think you and I both believe that an agent take future and job search is happening in that world. I'm assuming a man's agent and a woman's agent are the same agent. So do you feel like if women through their agent, they don't think about, is it a hundred percent? It's just like, let's just go. This agent is going to work for me. Well, women get more opportunities in that world.

And is that a, I guess, an endorsement for a Gentic job search in that women will get more opportunities because there won't be the filter with an agent that a woman, a human woman might have.

JT ODonnell (01:02:15.32)

yeah, and I'm seeing anecdotal evidence of that already actually on LinkedIn. So I have women now that we're teaching them to talk about their industry and their skill sets, the problems you solve, the pain you alleviate, and documenting that knowledge. And because they're documenting that knowledge, they're being surfaced in the searches. But more importantly, and this is the thing that I think people don't understand, when you take the time to document your knowledge, when you have to sit down and think about how do I want to explain these things that I did, you're actually prepping yourself for an interview.

Joel Cheesman (01:02:43.915)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (01:02:45.218)

So when they call you because of the interesting things you put out there, you're prepared to talk. And this is where I'm seeing women really excel and land incredible opportunities. So the agentic excites me because it can go out and it can listen. It can listen to what you're saying and how you're saying it. And this is where I think women are gonna start to get a great edge.

Joel Cheesman (01:02:55.328)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (01:03:05.298)

I just realized that I mentioned I was going to say something about the higher view acquisition and I didn't because of all the fuss over juice box. So if you're still listening to this episode, which God bless you, if you are, it's been a wild ride. I'm to give my two cents on the higher view acquisition. so higher view started in 2004. Video ret like video interviewing was cutting edge, man. That was a, that was hot. And they were the brand leader in that.

JT ODonnell (01:03:09.712)

Yeah

JT ODonnell (01:03:17.328)

You

Joel Cheesman (01:03:34.603)

Let's call it 10 years of sort of high speed internet, mobile phones, video, getting used to that. Let's fast forward to let's say COVID. COVID we're interviewing online with video. mean, higher view has always been sort of at that leading edge brand wise. They've never struck it rich. They've never got acquired. They've never like, so they're kind of this feature that has just sort of stuck around and is still sticking around. But what we, my, my take on this is.

They've been pinched for going AI recruit, like AI facial recognition, diversity, like exclusion, like they went down that path and got pinched. So they've, they've dialed it back now, just like work day, just like SAP. It's like, we need to get some AI in this piece or else we're going to suffer. hence the higher guide, acquisition.

To me, this is not a winning recipe for HireVue. I think there are better solutions out there, more all-encompassing solutions. I looked at some of the numbers on what's going on at HireVue. In 2025, they lost their chief innovation officer, they lost an SVP of sales, and they lost a VP of sales.

And JT, I've been around long enough and you have as well. When you lose your product innovation person and you start losing your top salespeople, something stinks. Something stinks to high heaven. that is there. When you look at their headcount, headcount's been 10 % down in the last two years. I looked at Hire Guide, headcount's down 20 % over two years. They're only about a 20 person company.

JT ODonnell (01:04:57.264)

Mm.

JT ODonnell (01:05:01.624)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (01:05:21.569)

I think they've lost some folks as well. this whole like, Hey, if we're two dinosaurs and we cuddle, can we survive longer after the meteor, you know, and the, and the ice age happens like not much longer. And this, but this is an attempt to do that. Um, I think video interviewing is a feature everyone's going to, like, I just don't see any sort of. IP there. And when you, when you don't have that, you just start losing customers. And I think they've been bleeding customers for almost 20 years.

JT ODonnell (01:05:48.74)

Yeah, I mean, you and I have been around. There's so many people like right idea, wrong time. How many startups have you seen that just were too early to the market? It wasn't ready for it, et cetera, right? I think they were one of them. And then like you said, they got pinched. There was a documentary that they got negatively featured in and they've been up against that. Now anybody can do video and I can only imagine what their legacy tech, you know, that's gotta be expensive. And so I do, I think they were one of those that

Joel Cheesman (01:05:58.045)

A lot. Sure. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (01:06:11.073)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (01:06:16.409)

Right idea, wrong time, and they've been at it for a really long time, it's just, I'm with you, don't see it, especially with all the new tech I'm seeing in the video space that is so agile, so up there, and so much more user-friendly, specifically putting the power in the hand of the job seeker. One of the issues people always have with things like high review is, I get put on the spot, I answer these questions, I don't know where my data's going, I don't know where my video's going, and I'm redoing these every single time. So there was just so much wrong with it.

Joel Cheesman (01:06:28.651)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (01:06:40.363)

Yeah.

JT ODonnell (01:06:46.501)

that there's plenty of players out there right now that I think are new or faster in leveraging AI.

Joel Cheesman (01:06:50.081)

feels very antiquated. you know, think in a world where there's fewer recruiters interviewing in person, people that are applying to jobs, putting a camera in that equation just is like putting a monkey wrench in the engine. It just slows everything down. The tools now are so much more efficient and cheaper and better. All right. Well, one thing I never miss on a weekly show, JT, as you know, is the dad joke.

JT ODonnell (01:07:06.651)

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Agreed.

JT ODonnell (01:07:17.443)

I know, here it comes.

Joel Cheesman (01:07:23.361)

In honor of Women's Month, what do you call a man with 99 % of his brain missing? What do you call a man with 99 % of his brain missing?

JT ODonnell (01:07:36.219)

I mean, I could say something, but I'd have a lot of men hate me on this show. So I'm just not going to say no. Nope, not doing it.

Joel Cheesman (01:07:38.337)

We'll say it. No one's listening at this point in the show. Just say whatever you want. All right. What do you call a man with 99 % of his brain missing? Castrated.

Joel Cheesman (01:07:53.675)

Thanks for sticking with it, JT. We out!

JT ODonnell (01:07:56.304)

Love it. We out!