We've made a list. We've checked it twice.
And here's our list of who's been naughty and who's been nice this year. It's the perfect combination of sweet-and-sour for you to enjoy with a stout eggnog and pudding made of fig.
Special holiday cheer for our amazing sponsors: America's Job Exchange, Sovren, Nexxt and Ratedly.
Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors! You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts, complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.
Joel: We've made a list. We've checked it twice. And we're going to break down who was naughty and who was nice this year. Welcome to the Chad and Cheese podcast, guaranteed to make all the naughty lists. I'm Joel Cheesman.
Chad: And I'm Chad, the nice one.
Joel: The loyal elf to my Santa. On this abbreviated holiday edition, we'll go through the best and worst of 2017, in addition to giving shout-outs galore. You wanted it, you got it. Stay tuned.
Chad: Bodyguard elf.
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Joel: I'm about three eggnogs in, Chad, how about you?
Chad: Oh, yeah. No, I'm saving mine for a little bit later today. The local brewery is actually, they're releasing a couple of new brews, so I had to work out this morning, so I could earn my beer, but I'm going to say by one o'clock, I'll be ready.
Joel: Well, I worked out, as well. I changed a diaper and had a few cups of coffee, so I more than earned those eggnogs.
Chad: No, I agree.
Joel: Well, it's holiday season, man! What are you doing for Christmas?
Chad: Stoked! Well, I've got three teenagers, so they pretty much own our time, no matter what. But we're gonna go to family, a little up north, just north of Indianapolis, and hopefully first of the year kick back over to Ohio to visit more family.
Chad: What about you? Are you taking the baby anywhere? Where's Axe going?
Joel: We're staying home. We do get the pleasure of having the children on Christmas morning this year. As many know, I'm divorced as well as you are, so some years you get the kids at morning, sometimes you don't. This year fortunately, we get the morning with them, and my mother, who had hip surgery and knee surgery last year, is sort of back in the saddle. She's going to come up and enjoy the holiday with us.
Joel: So I'm excited for a little R&R, and a little family time, just like you.
Chad: That's awesome. Well, and for those of you who are slightly confused between who Jeremy and Ax is, they're actually the same little baby. I've actually named little Jeremy "Axe", because he's a masculine little guy.
Joel: Which does not mean that Chad is the father, just so we're clear on that. We don't want any confusion.
Chad: Never even thought about that until you just said it, but that's funny as hell.
Joel: I'm glad you think that's funny. It's Chad's little pet name, I guess. It hasn't caught on with anyone else. It's sort of like how Chad calls this a pod, but no one else does. He just has this thing that he likes to do, so yeah. He's Axe.
Chad: When he's playing football, and all of his buddies are calling him Ax, you're gonna have me to thank.
Joel: If he plays football, I will give you that credit yes. I will give that to you.
Chad: Let's do shout-outs!
Joel: Let's get to the shout-outs, shall we?
Joel: Yeah, all right. I'm gonna start ... since we just discussed my son Jeremy, Jeremy Roberts out there from HiringSolved loves this show, sent out a Tweet, I believe, calling us "the best podcast of 2017" that he listens to, so Jeremy, we love you, and we won't take your vote of confidence as the reason being that I named my son Jeremy. I'm going to assume that had nothing to do with your props. So thank you, Jeremy, and have a great holiday.
Chad: Jeremy, you're giving us the feels, buddy. We appreciate it, thanks so much.
Chad: Roy Mauer, hopefully I'm saying that wrong. I think everybody understands that Joel and I are probably going to massacre your name if you get a shout-out, but Roy Mauer. This guy knows how to get a shout-out. This is the Tweet that he sent. Listen to this,
Chad: Roy, you're a smart man. You know how to butter us up. Here's you're shout-out, buddy.
Joel: Yeah, and Roy out there at SHRM-land. So, it's rare that we get sort of an HR prop. So we really appreciate that.
Chad: Well, and also, he wants to get us out there on a road show, and this is a nice time to talk about the road shows, to let everybody out there who's listening, whether you're a vendor or talent acquisition, if you'd like to have Chad and Cheese come out, spice up any meeting, or any conference, or any show, that's what we're here for, guys.
Joel: Well, as everyone knows, we have faces for podcasting. So what better-
Chad: We do.
Joel: What better way to scare your event, than to bring us out.
Chad: I'm a good looking man. I don't know what you're talking about.
Joel: I'm gonna add Hung Lee again to the show.
Joel: He got a shout-out last week, I believe. He's like the SNL guest. Like, how many shout-outs before we give him a jacket? I don't know. But Hung Li listed us on LinkedIn as one of his favorite podcasts for the year. Hung, we appreciate it, and keep listening.
Chad: Love it.
Chad: Kyle Hager. We talked about him, I think a couple of pods ago, he is the millennial, who is from the Univ- ... That school up north. We never actually say it. But Joel, you'll be happy to hear, he's actually taking your advice, and he's seeking professional help. So, being a big fan of the podcast, I thought that would be important.
Joel: Well, and as a Wolverine fan, and a Gen Z or Y ...
Joel: Whatever. They all need help. Get that guy a participation medal, and get him some help.
Joel: Next up, on my list, Nexxt, as we know, is a sponsor of our exclusive monthly show. That's Nexxt with two X's. I'm a little jealous, but happy. They sent you a goodie bag, but it was a little bit like Noah's ark, because there was two of everything. And I had to remind you that the other extra wasn't for your wife, it was probably for your podcast marriage.
Joel: And so I'm expecting a large Nexxt goodie bag of squeezies, mousepads, and whatever else was in there. So shout-out to Nexxt.
Chad: Yeah, I think they think we live together. Kind of like we're in a dorm, or something like that. Because they send all of this stuff just to me, it's like, to my address, but it's ... Chad Sowash slash Joel Cheesman. So I think they actually think we live in a dorm together, or something.
Joel: Yeah, I don't know if it's like a Joey and Chandler thing, or maybe like a Kramer and Jerry thing, I don't ... Yeah. Yeah. Nexxt has a lot of ideas about us that I think are false. But let's let them continue to enjoy the fantasy.
Chad: Oh yeah. And keep sending us stuff. Or keep sending me stuff. That's awesome.
Chad: A letter from Philly! Nancy, out there in PhillyLand, I gotta tell you guys. We get letters and we get call ... I mean, we get stuff all the time. Tweets. But when it comes down to this one, Nancy went overboard. And I love it. Because she gave us a rundown of what she liked about the show, what she liked about the recruiting it, I mean just everything. But what I'd like to share, what Nancy said was, "Please don't sell out. I enjoy you just the way you are." So, thank you, Nancy, we appreciate it.
Joel: Can you do that in a Billy Joel kind of voice?
Chad: I thought I was.
Joel: Just the way you are. Do do do!
Joel: Yes, Nancy, that took a long time to write that lovely letter to us, and we appreciate it, and hope you have a fantastic holiday.
Chad: Every bit of it.
Joel: How about Tom Preziosi? Preziossi? Prezioss-
Chad: We're gonna mangle your name, man, it doesn't matter. Yeah, what about him? He's a LinkedIn shout-out, on LinkedIn, go figure. He's not gonna go use Twitter or anything like that, so I appreciate it, Tom. He says, "LinkedIn giving a shout-out on the Chad
Cheese podcast. If you're in the recruiting industry, you need to check these guys out." Appreciate it, Tom, make sure that all your peeps at LinkedIn, just jam the Chad and Cheese podcast out. You start the intro music, everybody'll be like, "What the hell is that? That sounds cool!"
Chad: They'll come around, you'll be the coolest guy in the cube bar.
Joel: Oh, totally. Totally. LinkedIn loves us, man. That's awesome. So keep listening, guys, we'll keep churning out good stuff.
Joel: I think that's it for shout-outs, right? I guess we should say thanks to our sponsors, as always.
Joel: The guys ... without Sovern, AJE, Nexxt, and the others, we wouldn't be doing this show, so go and look them up. Give them a lot of money, so they can continue to support the show. Sovern, is an annual sponsor for next year. Super happy to have them on board. Really thankful for them, and hope they have a great holiday.
Chad: And Jobs2Careers has signed on for Firing Squad. So they will be sponsoring Firing Squad.
Chad: Yay, Jobs2Careers, thanks, guys.
Joel: Jobs2Careers. Very nice, yes, thank you for reminding me on that one, Chad.
Joel: Get to the lists. Here's how this is gonna work. Chad is going to go through his Nice list, I'm going to counter with my Naughty list, and then we're gonna take a little break, and then switch it back up, and go to my list, and his Naughty list.
Joel: And if that's confusing, it is because it is, but we're gonna try to keep it in line, and we're going to start with Chad and his nice list. So Chad, we each get three on each list. Who made your Nice list for 2017?
Chad: Number one on my Nice list is Howie and the boys over at Crowded.com. If you haven't listened, I'm going to give another shout-out to our Firing Squad. If you haven't listened to Firing Squad, you're listening to some of the coolest, and best start-ups that are out there. Joel and I get pitched by a start-up, and then we pick them apart. I mean, we are left and right trying to angle in, to find the chinks in their armor.
Chad: Thus far, only one start-up has received big applause from both Joel and myself. And that's Crowded. And their Refresh product. So I've gotta say, if you don't know what Crowded and their Refresh product is, it's incredibly cool, it actually uses the applicant tracking system, the candidates in the applicant tracking system. Refreshes that data, goes out and brings in social information, and refreshes all of those candidates' profiles, so that you should be doing what you should have been doing for years, using that goddamned database that you spent so much money on, for the very first database you jump into, not to mention matching recs against current candidates that you've already paid for, so Howie and the crew, you're first.
Joel: Very nice. If I could piggyback on that, engagement really had a good year, because sites like Lever, SMS, certainly TextRecruit, Canvas, engagement had a good year. And we hope that keeps up, because the resume black hole is a bad thing for everybody.
Joel: All right! I get to go to my naughty list. So I'm kind of-
Joel: -kind of excited about this. Okay. My first naughty list addition is a no-brainer, the naughtiest of the naughty, David Kent.
Chad: What an asshole.
Joel: If you've been listening to the show, you know David Kent. For those that don't know, here's an abbreviated version of why David Kent is in my naughty list. Okay.
Joel: David Kent started a site called RigZone back in 2000-ish. He sold the company to DHI, which owns Dice, which most people relate to more than DHI, sold it to DHI for roughly 50 million dollars. He worked at DHI for about a year, left the company, started a competitor called OilPro, he had somebody on the inside of DHI apparently stealing to the tune of 700,000 data records, profiles, whatever. Stole those, put them into his new company OilPro, and then he tried to sell OilPro to DHI, which ... wow, he got caught, imagine that. So the feds come knocking on his door, he gets pinched, he goes to jail, he was sentenced this year, I'm assuming he's in the pokey, the dude was an obvious choice for naughty list.
Joel: I hope he cleans up his act, does his time, and gets back on the right track. But as far as 2017 goes, David Kent, big time naughty list.
Chad: No question. Stop, thief. Dude's an idiot. I think he actually took the info ... all that data with him when he left after I think serving like a year at DHI after he sold RigZone. But, either way, it doesn't matter. He's a thief, and that's bullshit, dude. You can't be doing that stuff.
Joel: If we had the Darwin Awards on this show, he would also win for the Darwin Award.
Joel: All right, next on your nice list.
Chad: Next on the nice list is acquisition, first and foremost, but ZipRecruiter. Their current acquisition of JobBoard.io-
Chad: -not Jobboardio. Personally, I hope this is the first of many acquisitions we see from Zip, throughout the industry. A source also tells me, another reason why they're on the nice side, that they have a huge R&D team, that's focused on leveraging on what they already have working incredibly well for them, and we note that Zip kicked Indeed's ass in a case study that we cited, I think a couple of podcasts ago, with regard to price and if-
Joel: Resume per resume, yep.
Joel: And they love Google, and Google for Jobs.
Chad: Which makes a hell of sense, right? So they're focused on R&D, acquisitions, I mean they're putting a lot of money in R&D. They're going looking at acquisitions, and AI and machine learning is very big, very high on their priority list. I really see Zip as a big name coming up in 2018, they did a great job, I think in 2017, so they're number two on my nice list.
Joel: Very nice. I will add that they seem to be one of the few companies in our industry that have figured out sort of traditional advertising, they've been doing radio, TV for a long time, and they keep doing it, so it must be working. So props to that.
Joel: Interestingly, as I wrote the story about the JobBoard.io acquisition, apparently that is the only acquisition that they've had, which I found kind of surprising. I would have figured that they'd had some more sort of side acquisitions or smaller ones, which I assumed Jobboardio was ... JobBoard.io was a smaller acquisition. It wasn't like they dropped probably 50 million on this company. But, the fact that it does a lot of things and have only made one acquisition, I thought was interesting.
Joel: Anyway, I will get onto my next naughty. Because that's a lot more fun than the nice list.
Joel: My naughty list goes to Silicon Valley. They had a bad year with the gender bias stuff. It kinda started-
Chad: And they're not getting it.
Joel: They're still not getting it. And a little bit of my timeline here. There was a Google manifesto, which kinda hit the news, which was essentially a Google engineer talking about how women engineers were different, and why they were different. It was very tone-deaf in terms of equality and gender equality. It sort of followed with Uber. Uber, with their "brogramming" culture, one of their former employees came out and wrote a pretty extensive blog post, I think on Medium, about the culture at Uber, and things really hit the fan at Uber.
Joel: Their CEO is gone, sort of as a result of this whole thing, and then ending up the year with all of these holiday parties in the valley, word came out that they were hiring models to come to the holiday parties, which sounds incredibly tone-deaf, it sounds incredibly like the valley really is this bubble that doesn't really connect with much of the rest of the world, let alone the country, so a pretty easy addition to my naughty list was the Valley.
Chad: You just gotta ask yourself, when in the hell are they going to get it? It continues to happen, and I understand development and programming is very heavy on the male side, but when are these companies going to get that they need to attract ... they need to actually put programs together to be able to diversify their current teams. And to have an asshole actually write a manifesto saying that, "Men are just better at developing than women are." I mean, it's ... to be able to see this just walk through the entire year of 2017, it was ridiculous, and it still is.
Joel: Let's agree that our relationship, in a macro sense, with women took a hit in 2017. And let's hope-
Chad: A big hit.
Joel: -let's hope that this thing goes through the washer, it comes out cleaner than it was before, because it's ridiculous, all this harassment stuff, and inequality, and pay bias, let's hope that gets cleaned up more in 2018.
Chad: One word, man. It's leadership.
Joel: Fair enough. Let's go to your next nice addition.
Chad: Nice list! Google has a lot going out this year, but the only thing that's going to hit my nice list from Google is the jobs API. We've seen the jobs API with OnGig, with Jibe, with CareerBuilder, with incredible numbers. Incredible numbers. OnGig actually just posted that they've been boosting traffic by 73%, and their applications by 31%. So, you know, it's pretty amazing that you're switching to, instead of doing these two or three boxes, and going through all these different hoops for search, just using the one click google search, one bar, one click, all the false negatives are reduced, the abbreviations are understood, the concepts are actually understood. So saying I'm looking for development jobs near Seattle, misspellings, and obviously all the different things that you can get from using google, and I'm gonna say that one of our interviewees pretty much said it the most clearly. "If you think you're going to beat Google, Google will smoke you." And that's why we are adopting their search.
Chad: That's why we are adopting their search. I have to say that google has like three different products that they're out there with this year, I think the other products will gain ground, some traction, but this is the one that out of the gate is smoking the shit out of everybody. And if you have a job site, or if you have a product, or an applicant tracking system or what have you, that uses search, this is what you should be looking at. And if you're not, and you think you can beat google, once again, you're gonna get smoked.
Chad: So big ups for google, and their jobs API.
Joel: Yep. And I love how it's penetrating the enterprise side of it. We kind of knew it would hit the job board, and that side of it, but the fact that you have J&J, and Marriott, and a few others, really implementing this technology into their job search, I think is a fantastic thing. So, yeah, big ups to google. No surprise that it's their most popular of the three; you've got the API, you've got the ATS, you've got the job search side of it. It's no surprise that they really got this one right. Even though it's sort of a fringe one, it doesn't get the pub that the job search does, but it definitely seems to be working for the companies that are doing it. So, yeah. I agree that they would make my nice list, as well.
Joel: Let's go to my final naughty list. Okay, so I was really struggling with this. I had millennials on my list as a potential, I had Dice on my list, who had a horrible year.
Chad: Yeah, they did.
Joel: I had Tinder for Jobs on my list, which was awful, but-
Chad: Oh, so bad.
Joel: -I funneled it down to our good buddies at O'Hire to make my final naughty list. And they make my list, number one, because it's a shitty idea. The idea that people will look through two minutes of video resumes is ridiculous, it's a bad idea, it hasn't worked in the past, it won't work now, but I can't get over the fact that their name is so awful. It's O'Hire, O-apostrophe-Hire, which ... There are no successful internet stories that have apostrophes in their name. Their URL isn't even just O'Hire, it's O-Hire, if you put in "Ohire", the domain is for sale, so why they didn't think, let's just buy Ohire if that's our name, because I doubt whoever has Ohire is going to, like, ask for a lot of money for Ohire, they could probably afford it. Bad idea. Bad branding. Bad name. Bad company. They deserve to be on the naughty list. They're on it. I'm done.
Joel: And with that, I am totally vented, and I feel like I am ready to go to my nice list. I'm sure you're chomping at the bit to get into your naughty list, but let's talk about AJE first, before we get into that.
Chad: We should talk about AJE. So, I'm sure you know that diversity recruiting, it's a big thing.
Chad: We hear about this shit all the time.
Chad: Oh my god.
Chad: But using the same old job boards are just going to yield the same old results. That don't reach diversity communities effectively. I mean, it's pretty simple, right? If you're using the same job sites, and you're not seeing a diverse pool of candidates, what do you think the problem is?
Chad: Do you think it's your job posting? It could be. It could be. But don't you think it might be the job sites that you're using? I'd say probably. AJE-
Chad: Bingo! AJE utilizes a different mix of targeted job distribution across hundreds of diversity job boards and niche sites. I mean, their focus is being able to hone in on that diversity talent in those different diversity communities. So, once again, as we talk about, on this pod, quite frequently ... When you need an expert in an area, don't go see a generalist. It makes no goddamned sense. Go see an expert, have them help you focus on driving diverse candidates into your website. So what you can do is, very simply, to be able to enjoy a discount for some targeted diversity hiring, go to ChadCheese.com, you can scroll down to the sponsors area, click on America's Job Exchange, and it will take you to a page where, guess what, you get a discount.
Chad: And it's all focused on diversity hiring. So that's our friends at AJE. It's really cool to see them pivot from just being compliance, boring, check the box kind of compliance, to be able to focus on hires, be able to focus on outcomes, and you have an opportunity to check them out. Give them a call, check them out on the website. ChadCheese.com, click on America's Job Exchange logo and get a discount.
Joel: Awesome. Yeah, AJE, it goes without saying, big supporter of the show from day one, continue to be a huge supporter, really appreciative of that, and happy holidays to Bill and the gang out there in AJE-land.
Joel: Well, let's get to your naughty list, 'cause I'm kind of excited to hear about who's gonna get the big gun from you this holiday season.
Chad: Yeah, so I get to go first?
Joel: You do.
Chad: I'm so excited.
Chad: Okay, so, here we go. The first, numero uno, on my naughty list, and this has been shaped by some recent news, is Facebook. And thanks to Mona from KRT for sharing this. Facebook's microtargeting is awesome, and we've all talked about how the microtargeting is going to be amazing for location, ethnicity, gender, age groups, but the problem is, Facebook is not allowing that on employment ads. Why?
Chad: New York Times actually had an article on this. A 58-year-old social media marketing strategist didn't get a hubspot social media manager job in his feed, because he wasn't targeted. So therefore, now it's discriminatory. Wait a minute, I don't get to see the job in my Facebook feed? That's discrimination. No, that's not discrimination, asshole. Here's the thing. Facebook is now trying to become the discrimination police, and that's not their fuckin' job. Gender targeting is no longer available for employment ads, ethnicity targeting is no longer available for employment ads, age, language, there are so many things now, that they're actually cutting down.
Chad: And Facebook, that's not your job. That's the job of the enforcement agencies, the EEOC and the OFCCP. The thing is, when a company is trying their damnedest to go out and hire females, or they're trying to diversify their company? And they want to use your microtargeting, and then you shut them off because you want to be the goddamned discrimination police. That's not your job. That's not your job. So, from my standpoint, Facebook, being so excited about being able to use Facebook for targeted microtargeting on ads, and then watching them pull this bullshit? They're automatically on my naughty list.
Chad: Rant number one.
Joel: You started out kind of light on that one, I think. As I look at your list, it's gonna get a little bit more intense as we go through it. So that was an appetizer, everybody. It gets a lot more Chad-ish as we move on.
Joel: I'm going to counter your Facebook naughty list edition, and put Facebook on my nice list.
Joel: Because I think that Facebook did a lot of good things last year. We've been talking for a long time about Facebook actually getting into the employment workforce environment, ecosystem, and they did that in a big way last year. They looked at enterprise tools, their messaging competitor to Slack came out, it's free to use for enterprises, they launched job postings as part of their service. Not only can you post jobs as a company page, you can post jobs specifically. You can do that through ZipRecruiter, who was on your nice list earlier in the show. Their relationship with Facebook, I think, has been great.
Joel: I'm missing one.
Chad: Job posting, messaging-
Joel: I think that's it. But I just think that Facebook getting into it, I think that they're really poised to engage with smaller businesses to hire. I think they're really putting the heat on Craigslist for that SMB market, and I also think that if anyone is going to compete with LinkedIn and Microsoft and their AI technology, and their number of profiles, which, by the way, is about four times what LinkedIn is, that it's going to be Facebook. In terms of not only AI but automation, chatbots on their messenger service to screen candidates, I think Facebook is really poised to do some great things in terms of the employment space. The fact that they got into it, the fact that they launched, what I can tell, successful products last year, puts them right on my nice list for 2017.
Chad: That, my friend, will be severely hampered if you can't microtarget. Next.
Joel: Your nice list. Or ... naughty list. Sorry, sorry. Naughty list. I'm looking at the name, and it's definitely a naughty.
Joel: So, let's go.
Chad: Definitely naughty. So it's fairly simple. When you raise your rates in the holiday season by 35+%, you are automatically entrenched on my naughty list, Indeed. It's fairly simple, and I mean, we've been bashing these guys for the last few podcasts, because this is a big deal. You take a product, and you don't really do anything new to the product? What you're doing is, you're saying, oh, I see, guys! Customer, Mr. Customer, you're using this piece of our site more, so what we're gonna do, is we're gonna charge you for it. We didn't charge you before, but now we're gonna charge the shit out of you, and guess what? Yeah, we're assholes. Indeed. You gotta remember. Look at history, and there might not be anybody who's actually in leadership who's seen this shit happen. I'm sure they have. But look at history.
Chad: Monster did this shit. Where's Monster now, huh? And there are many other sites that did the same shit. Guys. Learn from the past, I understand, you're losing traffic, because Google is eating your goddamned lunch. They're drinking your milkshake. I totally get it, right? The thing is, though, this is not how you're gonna win. As a matter of fact, it makes you more vulnerable. The Zips, the Nexxts, the CareerBuilders, now you make it easier for them to steal your client base, to drink your milkshake. So, Indeed, stop being dumbasses. You're on the naughty list.
Joel: Naughty indeed. I'm on record