Upwork & Indeed Target Randstad

🎙️ This week on Chad & Cheese:

• Will SiriusXM suit drag iCIMS be into the hot seat (again)? 🔥

• Upwork cosplays as Blockbuster’s worst nightmare 📼

• Deel clones employees like it’s a bad Black Mirror episode 🤖

• And somewhere in Atlanta… a meteor picked the worst Airbnb ever 🌎💥

Plus, Joel cries at college drop-off (on the inside), Chad yells at Apple, and we both wonder why DOL is handing out Corporate Welfare, did America just go full socialism?

Buckle up, kids—humans are cooked.

PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION

Joel Cheesman (00:34.974)

This podcast ain't for everybody, only the sexy people. Hey boys and girls, this is the Chat and Cheese podcast. I'm your cohost, Joel. Make a deal for me, Cheeseman.

The Chad (00:46.35)

This is Chad, be kind rewind, so wash.

Joel Cheesman (00:49.532)

And on this episode, iCims is under fire, Dill extinguishes a fire, and humans are so fired. Yeah, we had a good run. Let's do this!

The Chad (01:03.079)

We had a good run. God, I hope your son doesn't listen to this.

Joel Cheesman (01:05.49)

We look like the most disjointed sports podcast in the world.

The Chad (01:09.272)

We do, yeah. For everybody listening, you can go check it out on YouTube when we publish it. Jill's got our new 2025 Fantasy Football League jerseys on. These are the best. I haven't even been able to put mine on this wonderful frame yet, although when I get home, I'll have it.

Joel Cheesman (01:29.886)

Crying your Portuguese beach of choice. Yeah.

The Chad (01:32.834)

Yes, look at this baby. Look at this. I've got my, I've got my Porto. I'm not a big Porto fan, but if you can see the back, it's a Jota jersey. Yeah. It's a Jota jersey. Had to get it. Had to get, was the only Portuguese team, I believe the only Portuguese team he played for, at least in the, in the A-league. But anyway, yeah, beautiful. We look good. How did Cole look? How did Cole look?

Joel Cheesman (01:38.451)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (01:41.768)

Jota.

Joel Cheesman (01:53.298)

Yeah, we look, we look good, man. We look good. We look good. Back to that. Good. Good everybody. Yeah. So, took my first born to college this week on Tuesday. my ex wife and wife and I helped him, move into the dorm at Indiana university. it was a bit emotional for me. I did.

The Chad (02:05.261)

Yeah.

The Chad (02:13.975)

Okay, nice.

The Chad (02:19.654)

god yeah.

Joel Cheesman (02:20.198)

I cried on the inside, not, you know, I didn't let, didn't let him see me cry.

The Chad (02:25.069)

It's okay these days Joel. It's okay. You can cry.

Joel Cheesman (02:28.358)

Yeah, it's a, and a lot of people, our age are putting shit on social kids going to college and things like that. So it's sort of equal parts. You're really proud of what they've done, where they're going. They're starting this new chapter in their life, but it's also a very bittersweet moment in that, you're saying goodbye. Kinda to a kid like for that, for that part of their life is now over. Fortunately, I have two more that are still a pain in my ass, but for one of them.

The Chad (02:40.492)

Yeah.

That's awesome.

The Chad (02:49.676)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (02:57.15)

it's gone and you just, you just kind of worry as a parent, like, they going to be okay? And they're in the big, bad world now. I can't, I'm not there to sort of be via support system. So anyway, super happy for him. super great school and campus. I hope that he, excels and engages and finishes maybe first and foremost finishes and, he'll be on onto his life, but yeah, it's, it's, it's a, it's a moment for sure. It's a moment for sure.

The Chad (03:01.367)

Yeah. Mm-hmm. yeah.

The Chad (03:22.615)

Yeah.

He's like what two hours from you now? I mean he's not he's not that far away Which is nice cuz just in case shit goes sideways dad can be there in no time whatsoever You don't have to pop on a flight or nothing like that. So that's

Joel Cheesman (03:38.226)

Yeah. And, for those, for those of us in Indiana, 69 opening up has been really, really nice to get down to Bloomington.

The Chad (03:44.078)

yeah. yeah. So what does it take now then? How long?

Joel Cheesman (03:49.99)

I mean, so I'm on the far north side of Indy more or less. So it's probably two hours, but would have taken two and a half easily at the old system, the old road.

The Chad (03:52.129)

Yeah, right. Okay, not bad. Not bad, yeah.

Don't worry, don't worry, Cole, when Uncle Chad is in Indiana, it's only 45 minutes, so you can always call the Batphone and I'll be there. You know that, you know that. You need a wingman? I'm there for you, brother, it's okay.

Joel Cheesman (04:07.014)

Yep. Uncle Chad is there too. So I think he's okay. How was the European show? Stephen McGrath, I'm a little bit bummed that the first time our favorite Scott comes on the show and I'm not even on it. So how did...

The Chad (04:20.641)

It's kind of apropos though. I mean, it is kind of apropos. Yeah, it is. mean, because you gave Adam Gordon, you know, the golf clap and this is just coming back around as a... But no, he did a really good job. He had fun and can't wait to have him on stage with us in Nashville. We'll talk more about that in weeks to come. But yes, we've got some big, big stuff happening.

Joel Cheesman (04:23.674)

Is it? You can't have that much sexy on one podcast, I think.

The Chad (04:50.823)

around Nashville and even Louisville, San Francisco, San Diego, Dallas. Got a lot of shit coming up. So we're pretty stoked.

Joel Cheesman (05:00.2)

Yep. And you posted something from our friend, Toby Dayton, at link up recently. Is he okay? Can we check on him? He's, he's so mild mannered. And ever since Trump took office, he's, he's been dropping grenades everywhere. I I just want to check on it, make sure he's okay.

The Chad (05:04.799)

yeah.

The Chad (05:09.879)

Yeah.

The Chad (05:17.837)

Yeah, no, should, he's probably in a safe room right now. But I mean, it's hard when you look at numbers in the economy and you do what Toby does, right? And you know, being on the show with him for a year doing the jobs numbers before they got acquired and you know, he's got the money pit in the sky. He's really close to this stuff. So I can't imagine.

Joel Cheesman (05:22.29)

you

Joel Cheesman (05:29.598)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (05:46.574)

how hard it would be to divorce yourself from watching an economy really on the verge of collapsing. Because that's pretty much what all the indicators are looking at right now. So how the fuck do we come out of this? And the tariffs are literally just starting. We haven't even felt that yet.

Joel Cheesman (06:04.594)

Mm-hmm.

And he, the BLS, he was obviously upset about if the numbers aren't real or we can't trust the numbers. Like we got a problem. and, and he knows data. He is his, he's the big dog of data. And when he sees that the federal government is saying like, let's mess with the numbers, to quote Mark Twain, there are lies, damn lies and statistics and,

The Chad (06:11.425)

Jesus, yes.

The Chad (06:16.695)

Yeah.

The Chad (06:20.63)

Everything's rigged.

The Chad (06:24.78)

Yes.

Joel Cheesman (06:35.582)

That is coming true in the numbers. mean, if people can't trust them, we have a real problem. have a problem. So if you're out there, Toby, give us a shout out. Let us know you're okay. I don't know. We'll send you a Jersey or something.

The Chad (06:47.691)

Yeah, send us a smoke flare or smoke signal or something like that if you're not, okay? Some type of flare would be good. We just want to make sure you're okay, bub.

Joel Cheesman (06:55.39)

Thankfully football season's around the corner and he's a big Vikings fan, so maybe that'll help calm him down a little bit. We're thinking of you, Toby. Thinking of you, man. Thinking of you.

The Chad (06:59.371)

Yeah, we shall see. We shall see.

Joel Cheesman (07:07.942)

It is time for shout outs. Sponsored by our friends up North. Kiora, that's techs recruiting made simple and affordable.

The Chad (07:08.179)

It is. is. Kiora.

The Chad (07:19.063)

I'm gonna go first because this one's kind of fun. My shout out is to relocation. So a cherry sized, cherry tomato sized ball of flame crashed through the roof of an Atlanta home in June, which was classified as a meteorite 20 million years older than the planet earth. And kids.

The planet Earth is estimated to be 4.5 bu-bu-bu-billion years old. So this is 20 million years older. Anyway, think about that. 20 million years older than the Earth. And it chose its final resting place, its relocation place, Atlanta. Are you fucking kidding me? Not the Bahamas. Not Machu Picchu. Not Santorini. Not French Alps like Levin would love, the French Alps. Not Bora Bora.

Joel Cheesman (07:47.326)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (08:11.519)

Not Bora Bora, Atlanta. So shout out to relocation. Yeah, Jesus. Shout out to relocation. It's not always what it's cracked up to be.

Joel Cheesman (08:13.638)

Atlanta, GA.

Joel Cheesman (08:21.668)

Atlanta. Nothing would ruin your day like a ping pong ball size meteorite just coming through the house, would it?

The Chad (08:30.139)

yeah, no shit.

Joel Cheesman (08:31.41)

That would be a bad day, bad day. But, Chad, I'm here with good news. I'm here. I'm here with good news on my shout out. It's, it's back to school season conference seasons picking up. know people are looking for, for something new to wear something stylish, something cool. And I'm here to help. Fashionize our audience chat. I was out. I was on the internet, perusing randomly, fast food, fast food sites and came across Arby's.

The Chad (08:33.005)

I mean, it seems seems apropos, though. Go ahead. Good.

huh.

The Chad (08:47.405)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (08:52.649)

The Chad (08:58.177)

huh.

Joel Cheesman (09:01.022)

When was the last time you were in an Arby's, Chad?

The Chad (09:04.909)

A decade maybe, I would say. I guess.

Joel Cheesman (09:05.086)

A decade? Okay. Well, you're, well, you're missing out because, if you head out, if you head out to Arby's shop.com, you can outfit yourself and get a whole plethora of fun stuff. So here's just a sampling Chad. You can get a hat that just says beef, just says beef. Nothing else. Just a hat that says beef. They have polo shirts with curly fries on them and, and beef and Cheddar's.

The Chad (09:15.168)

No way.

The Chad (09:25.695)

That's all you need.

Joel Cheesman (09:33.01)

There's a 10 gallon hat. Now who can't use a 10 gallon hat for that back to school attire, but it's more than just clothes, Chad. It's more than just clothes. have wrapping paper that looks like roast beef. So if you want your Christmas tree to really look really good this year, put some roast beef wrapping paper on those gifts. And by the way, they have a Christmas skirt with meat, various meats and deli meats on the actual tree skirt. They have Christmas ornaments, of course.

They have a jamoca shake bath bomb. I know you love a good bath bomb, Chad. Why not? Why not coach yourself in a Jamaica shake? sense. And, and here's one Julie would love sporting, on the streets of Portugal. Chad, they have a t-shirt that says, quote, hot girls eat Arby's. That's right. Hot girls eat Arby's. Is there anything better than that? Shout out to Arby's. I'm feeling like a French dip right about now.

The Chad (10:06.433)

Your mocha's shake.

The Chad (10:20.215)

Hmm.

The Chad (10:27.245)

Well, they're, everybody loves a French dip. That makes more sense then because Laura Loomer actually tweeted out that Marjorie Taylor Greene had roast beef in her pants. Maybe she just meant that she was wearing roast beef pants. I don't know, I don't know. Anyway.

Joel Cheesman (10:43.678)

That is wrong even for our show and that's saying something.

The Chad (10:49.229)

Hey, that was a tweet from a long time. Anyway, none of that is free, but what is free first and foremost is we've got fantasy football. It's that time of year kids, sponsored by our buddies over at Factory Fix. they look at, dude, first off, look at the jersey that Joel has on.

Joel Cheesman (10:51.239)

Boo!

Joel Cheesman (11:01.767)

I football.

Joel Cheesman (11:12.102)

It won't stop, it won't stop.

The Chad (11:16.653)

Look at that that jersey that Joel has on that is finally stitched. The factory fix on it's got the Chad and Cheese logo, football logo. It's got Cheeseman on the back. 33 big factory. That is fucking gorgeous. And that is above and beyond. And I also want to talk about something else. that's nice. Factory fix hat. Look at that. That is fucking gorgeous. OK, so we're going to go even above and beyond that. And I want all of.

Joel Cheesman (11:29.765)

It is very nice.

Joel Cheesman (11:35.826)

More above and beyond the coaching hat, the eighties coaching cap.

The Chad (11:45.513)

not just our sponsors, but also our future sponsors to watch this as well. Go ahead and roll that beautiful beam footage.

Joel Cheesman (11:48.542)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (11:59.978)

You

The Chad (12:09.271)

The singer.

Joel Cheesman (12:11.762)

The Immaculate Reception.

The Chad (12:18.231)

catch. Saekwon.

Joel Cheesman (12:18.568)

Ha ha ha.

The Chad (12:24.557)

Look that game face. Look at that AI game face.

The Chad (12:29.899)

Now anybody who's ever been to Akron, to the NFL football hall of fame, you know that voice, or Canton, can, Akron, Canton, whatever, Akron, Canton, you know that voice from NFL films, freaking awesome. The coolest part about all this is look at all the love and detail factory fixes, not just put into that jersey and those hats, but also that

Joel Cheesman (12:37.456)

It's Canton, Chad. It's Canton, not Akron. Close.

Joel Cheesman (12:50.632)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (12:57.982)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (12:59.805)

that little movie that we just threw out there. These are great promotional pieces and we're just talking about fucking fantasy football. mean, big applause to the team over at Factory. I mean, come on, come on.

Joel Cheesman (13:13.054)

They take it the extra nine yards, know, Chad, the extra yard. Why'd you go with 22? Your jersey is 22, mine's 33, I'm just curious. Was that your number in high school?

The Chad (13:15.926)

Well, I...

The Chad (13:23.885)

That was my number in high school. 22 was my outside linebacker and that was my number in high school.

Joel Cheesman (13:25.659)

Okay.

Joel Cheesman (13:29.092)

Was did you have a hero growing up that inspired 22 because 22 wasn't really a linebacker number back in the day.

The Chad (13:35.341)

No, it wasn't. wasn't. actually started, mean, and you know that in the US we start playing football very young. And when I was young, that was just the first number that was given to me. And I just, it just, it carried along. So it was, it was always my number. What about yours? Yours is 33. Did you just...

Joel Cheesman (13:44.221)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (13:48.146)

OK.

Joel Cheesman (13:51.711)

It just worked. So, so 33, a lot of people, including Mike Schaeffer at factory fix thought it was a Larry bird homage. Uh, I love me some Larry bird, but this, this is, this is a tribute to Chicago lands. Greatest underappreciated grid iron. Great. Polk highs. Al Bundy was number 33. So this is a hat tip to Bundy.

The Chad (14:00.97)

OK. Wrong sport, but yeah.

The Chad (14:17.613)

Ha ha ha.

Joel Cheesman (14:23.736)

Al Bundy, the greatest Chicagoland football player of all time.

The Chad (14:25.537)

Married with children, for all those who don't know, watch Married with Children. You'll get that.

Joel Cheesman (14:30.866)

How sad is it that Matt Lavery is still not with us to appreciate that joke? Because he would appreciate that joke immensely. Curious, the picture of you smoking, do know what that's from?

The Chad (14:36.087)

I know, I know he would.

The Chad (14:40.865)

Yes. I can't. I do remember seeing it, but I can't remember the I cannot remember the player who was actually doing.

Joel Cheesman (14:48.486)

It was, it was Lynn bias quarterback of the chiefs in the super bowl during halftime. He had a smoke and there's a famous picture, football fans will know of that. So that was, that was great. That was great.

The Chad (14:51.749)

yeah. Half time, yeah, half time.

The Chad (15:01.015)

All right, and for all of our other sponsors who also do a great job and yeah, we help them with the giving of good stuff. That's right, because with free stuff, go to ChadCheese.com slash free, you could prospectively win two bottles of whiskey from those talent tech expert people over at VanHack. look, chicken cock. Here comes the chicken cock. Bourbon barrel aged whiskey or aged, yeah, aged syrup in whiskey barrels.

Joel Cheesman (15:08.27)

Mm-hmm, sure do.

Joel Cheesman (15:22.75)

There it is.

The Chad (15:30.249)

from our buddies up at Keyura. T-shirts, those red shoe wearing kids at Aaron App and craft beer from the job data geeks over at Aspen Tech Labs. Love those guys. Last but not least, we all know it. We all love it. If it's your birthday, you might actually win some rum from Plum, but you got to go to ChadCheese.com slash free.

Joel Cheesman (15:57.861)

All right. Celebrating another year around the sun. got Candice Miller, Brian Thompson from our friends at Cure, Marley Huckabee, Peter Suchy, Alex Campo, Julie Personius, Brittany Kaiser, Cassia Newman, Bill Casco, Chris Long, your boy, Richard Cho, Beverly Collins, Nick Livingston, Jerry the Godfather Crispin, and Captain Picard, AKA Christine Cheeseman.

The Chad (16:03.885)

Yeah.

The Chad (16:13.089)

There he is.

The Chad (16:20.215)

There he is.

Joel Cheesman (16:24.944)

celebrate another trip around the sun. Happy birthday, everybody.

The Chad (16:27.981)

Love it. Love it. We will kind of squeak by events this week, but you've got something happening and you've got an announcement for ERE.

Joel Cheesman (16:37.692)

Yeah, yeah, I'm going somewhere.

The Chad (16:40.695)

Hahaha

Joel Cheesman (16:42.302)

So it's official. mentioned I was headed to ERE in November to get on stage in San Diego, the whale's vagina. Anyway, it's confirmed our friend, Jeff Taylor, founder at monster.com and now Boom Band will join me on stage. What could be more fun than Jeff Taylor and Joel Cheeseman on stage, live, unfiltered, anything goes, cage match.

The Chad (16:45.325)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (16:51.937)

on the other.

Joel Cheesman (17:09.896)

That would be fun actually if a show would put a cage and put the people in the cage. Anyway, might be some pushback on that, but I'm excited. you'll be doing your thing elsewhere, but I'm sure you'll be, giving me questions to ask hard balls to throw at Mr. Taylor while I'm, while I'm on the road.

The Chad (17:23.861)

yeah, yeah. And Jeff, I know you're listening, man. None of this warm water and warm water shit. I mean, we need some better analogies. We need some hard-hitting stuff. Nothing weak need. We need you to go right to the point and tell us how you feel, okay? That's what we need, Jeff. That's what we all expect.

Joel Cheesman (17:41.074)

Jeff needs to bring the heat is what you're saying. He needs to bring the blimp. He needs to bring some blimp-sized attitude on stage at ERE.

The Chad (17:42.679)

These bring fucking heat.

Some water skiing behind the blimp attitude. Yes. Yes. Which he was in the Guinness Book of World Records for, by the way.

Joel Cheesman (17:53.628)

That's right. Speaking of attitude, Chad.

Joel Cheesman (17:59.709)

It's fantasy football time, Chad. There's about a week left to sign up for a chance to play with us. We've got a lot of people interested. A lot of people want a piece of that, of that chain of that chain. Everybody wants the chain. Nobody wants to finish last Adam Gordon. Nobody wants that last place, finish. So, if you have a week left to sign up our friends at factory fixer pulling out all the stops, as Chad said, go out to Chad cheese.com click the link.

The Chad (18:03.042)

Yes.

The Chad (18:07.063)

Hurry up.

The Chad (18:12.727)

the sexy chain.

Joel Cheesman (18:27.944)

Hit us up on a social media to sign up, but time is running out and pretty soon we'll be listing the draft grades and who the players are for this year's fantasy football. I can't wait. I can't wait. Frankly, I can't wait. And speaking of can't wait, let's get to.

The Chad (18:39.521)

Here we go.

Alright.

The Chad (18:49.665)

Bye, folks!

Joel Cheesman (18:52.784)

All right. A job applicant is suing Sirius XM radio for alleged racial discrimination in its AI hiring technology powered by ICIMS as its ATS, by the way, the plaintiff, Arshin Harper claims the AI tool, which evaluated candidates based on data points like education and address perpetrated past bias and disqualified him for qualified positions. As for ICIMS,

They said in a statement, quote, we can share that the customer reference does not use iCIMS AI or machine learning for applicant screening and matching. Chad, you're hot on this one. Your thoughts.

The Chad (19:26.509)

Mm.

The Chad (19:32.418)

Yeah, there's no question. ICIMS was not named, but since we've seen a clash accident case against Workday, Mobley versus Workday, and then HireVue was also named in a suit earlier this year by civil rights advocates who allege Intuit used HireVue's discriminatory AI hiring technology, violating the Colorado Anti-Discrimination Act, the ADA and Title VII. So this is...

They might not be named, but it is important to know who the players are in the game, right? So that's very important. Personally, in the SiriusXM and Workday cases, I don't believe AI... Give me a second here. Weird. I don't believe AI is truly the culprit here because it's human actions that are used to train AI. And we're probably just going to experience the discrimination that's been...

Joel Cheesman (20:25.97)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (20:31.501)

computer scale, fucking crazy. The discrimination that's been happening for years, happening for years, but it's happened in smaller doses due to humans inability to scale well. So now that discrimination can happen not just in small sample sizes, but AI can now explode it by scale. We're gonna start to see larger sample sizes.

Using the same behavior and saying, shit, this is discriminatory. Well, it always has been. It's just happening where we can know it now, right? We can see it now. So what's the answer? I mean, it's really audit audit audit for God sakes. Now take a look at the higher view case. I think that this one's entirely different ball of wax as the case is laid out by the ACLU, the American Civil Liberties Union, that this is on the website, quote, DK, who's the claimant.

Joel Cheesman (21:15.932)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (21:26.889)

is an indigenous and deaf woman who is currently pursuing a master's degree in data science. She communicates using American Sign Language, ASL, and speaks English with a deaf accent. Since 2019, DK has held seasonal roles for Intuit. So she's worked for Intuit, receiving positive supervisor feedback and bonuses every single year, end quote. So why is this a problem? Back to the ACLU website, quote, DK was forced

to use HireVue's video interview platform, which features automated speech recognition systems to generate transcripts of applicants' responses, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. The problem is she was not provided an accommodation to be able to go through another process. She had to go through this process, and she's deaf, right? She was later rejected for this specific position and received feedback telling her, get this.

Joel Cheesman (22:13.886)

Hmm.

The Chad (22:25.899)

She needed to work on her quote, effective communication to provide quote, concise and direct answers end quote, to adapt her communication style to different audiences and to, this is the worst and or best depending on how you're looking at it, practice active listening. She's deaf. She to practice her active listening. Last but not least, practitioners no matter what tech they're using,

Joel Cheesman (22:41.778)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (22:55.743)

should be focusing on the process first and then AI. Again, I doubt the AI is the problem in many of these cases. It's already discriminatory, but it's the processes, human behaviors, and protocols that we need to really focus on. So again, audit, audit, audit. That's all I got. We're gonna see a lot of this though.

Joel Cheesman (23:15.742)

So last week we talked about the re-emergence of newspaper ads and I should have put threat of AI lawsuit as part of the resurgence of newspaper ads. Look, the most shocking piece of this news is that SiriusXM still exists and they're actually hiring people. But aside from that, have more thoughts on this than I thought I would.

in the old days and maybe it's time for a history lesson.

Joel Cheesman (23:51.273)

People would apply and if they thought they were discriminated against, was sort of like he said, she said, okay, who saw the resume, who interviewed you, how was the process done in the company? You had to have multiple people that were maybe color of color, maybe of sex, something that there was a trend of all of these people of this similar whatever of this.

The Chad (24:15.693)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (24:17.97)

minority was discriminated against and it was very hard to do. Now this guy alone can apply 150 times different email addresses saying, you know, like he can change certain things up. He alone can hope to prove that he was discriminated against based on just what that one person did. AI has made it scalable to create lawsuits like this by, doing things like applying with different

The Chad (24:27.725)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (24:47.26)

different things, but having that one thing is the same in this case. think it was the education and being a historically black college. If I'm reading the case, right. That, that, tipped him off that it was, it was a case to your point. This is not some evil AI. This is people training the AI to do this, but in the old days, it was really hard to prove because it was behind the company wall. Now it's out in the open that people can leverage the technology and then prove through the technology that something is going on.

The Chad (24:55.597)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (25:17.658)

I don't know if he's going to win this case. he did get one interview. I think the company at least has that to fall back on. but we'll, we'll see these cases, whether it's work day, this one, this is going to set a precedence for companies going forward and vendors going forward that is either going to really set this industry back or it's going to free it up to, to, run, to your case, the audit system. There'll be audit. have fair now.

The Chad (25:33.837)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (25:46.687)

Uh, we have warden AI and others are going to come around. Well, that will, as far as I can tell, none of those audits are coming up in court to say, Hey, we we've been audited. Our, our, stuff is safe and, and unbiased. Um, at some point it's going to have to, um, but, but companies are going to want to protect themselves no matter what. What I do find on the ICEMS example, I get the impression that someone that's integrated with ICEMS

The Chad (25:48.916)

Mm-hmm. yeah.

Joel Cheesman (26:14.03)

Is the one doing the interviewing or the, AI or the whatever the automation. Yes. So, so AI is sort of the head, but it's, if it's a marketplace provider, an integrated partner that creates an additional layer of risk for marketplaces because historically marketplaces are like, build your app on greenhouse, build your app on whatever. But now if your app is potentially going to be a bias solution, your ass is on the line.

The Chad (26:17.367)

So a point solution.

The Chad (26:25.303)

Yeah. Yep.

The Chad (26:36.941)

Mm.

Joel Cheesman (26:42.568)

for letting them in your marketplace. So how are ATS is going to respond to marketplaces? We've had talks with Paradox in the past about why don't you have a marketplace? And they are much more partner focus where they sort of vet the partner, they know who they are. It's not just free for all to build apps on the marketplace. So I think that's going to be a really interesting piece of this.

Historically also, we know the EEOC does not have a great track record of AI cases. They only have one confirmed settlement back in 2023. We talked about that with our friend, Keith Sonderling, when it happened. So I didn't see the EEOC listed on this lawsuit. So it made me think our lawyers or legal team saying, look, we can't rely on the EEOC.

The Chad (27:21.096)

yeah. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (27:34.163)

to help us. They have no good track record of that. I don't know if the current administration has anything to do with that, but it seems like lawyers and firms are going directly at the company as opposed to leveraging the EEOC to bring those cases up. So to me, that was a really interesting development in all this. And then I guess my last point is we talk a lot about AI taking jobs, which is certainly the case. It will also create jobs. And I think

The Chad (27:47.179)

Yeah, being claimant.

The Chad (27:57.678)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (28:03.038)

A new, a new, a new title in TA that we're going to start seeing is AI governance. They're going to be people brought in that their specific job is to make sure that we don't get our ass pinched from the legal entities for a biased lawsuit. And that will be, I think that's going to blow up. Like that's going to be a position that's going to, that's going to happen in a big way. So I will, I have more thoughts on this than I thought I did when I first saw it. This is an onion and it's going to be peeled.

over the next 12, 24 months and we'll obviously be on this case. The workday case is really big because that's just workday. This one SiriusXM again, they're still around. I guess podcasters have saved or at least Howard Stern and others have saved SiriusXM. But anyway, it's interesting and you posted this on LinkedIn and you got a lot of interesting feedback.

The Chad (28:38.903)

Yes, class action.

Joel Cheesman (28:58.878)

that I saw. So people are energized around this topic for sure.

The Chad (29:02.709)

Yeah, well, they want to see what's going to happen. It was funny somebody actually commented that, know, ISIM has passed the, you know, the New York, the New York City government's, you know, the audits and whatnot. I'm like, yeah, but this isn't Detroit. This is is this is different, right? So, I mean, it's going to be incredibly important that we as as.

Joel Cheesman (29:12.35)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (29:16.008)

Yeah. This is the D.

Yeah.

The Chad (29:26.805)

recruiters as hiring managers have been really loosey goosey around certain things like requirements, right? And if you put on requirements and you don't actually test the market with any market intelligence tool or what have you, and you don't know what you're gonna get, you can get thousands of resumes. So then you will turn down a bunch of people who actually meet their requirements and you could be in fucking hot water. That's the hard part, right? Then you might have them too tight. I mean, it's just one of those things where we're going to have to be smarter.

Joel Cheesman (29:32.83)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (29:48.254)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (29:54.966)

about how we start the process and then how we become more efficient through that process. AI can help, it should help. We don't need AI in every bit of it, but at the end of the day, we really need to be imploding a lot of our process methodologies and really just starting from scratch, making it easier, making it smarter and more compliant.

Joel Cheesman (30:14.122)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think, think, I think you mentioned in that, in that stretch and that thread that, uh, you know, the worst thing that could happen is that people just stop. Like just don't use it. Uh, let's just go back to the stone ages and post newspaper ads. Uh, that's, that's, that's not a recipe for success. This stuff is going to get messy. Protect yourself, uh, by any means that you can, um, the precedent will be set and there'll be some rules of the game at some point, but for now.

The Chad (30:24.609)

death that one.

Won't happen.

Joel Cheesman (30:41.904)

It's going to get messy. It's going to get messy.

The Chad (30:44.429)

toothpaste is out of the tube.

Joel Cheesman (30:47.644)

All right. Upwork has launched Lifted, a subsidiary targeting the enterprise staffing sector. Lifted combines talent sourcing, contracting, and workforce management for contingent work utilizing Upwork's talent pool and integrating with existing workforce programs. The announcement follows Upwork's recent acquisitions of Bubti, a freelance management system and staffing platform provider and employer record provider ASIN.

The stock is up around 3 % on the week. Chad, your take on Upwork's pivot.

The Chad (31:23.137)

Yeah, I think this is more traditional staffing model being under attack and deservedly so. It's old, it's slow, and it needs to be reinvented. And the first major attacker isn't Upwork. It's Indeed, owned by Recruit Holdings. Some would say Recruit has a staffing monopoly in Japan, and they're using Indeed to bypass staffing companies and go direct.

to the client in the US. So the hardest part to believe of all of this, knowing that Indeed is attacking staffing companies, is that staffing agencies are dumb enough to keep paying Indeed billions of dollars a year, which is doing nothing more than fueling their own demise. It's like they're sharpening the goddamn axe for the executioner. Now, Edward Upwork, with these acquisitions, I can say Upwork ain't fucking around,

They bought an EOR company, right? An employer of record company. And this is something they used to have other companies do for them. Now they're doing it in-house. And then they bought an enterprise version of themselves, a Dutch version called Bupdi. I don't know Bupkis about Bupdi. I just know it's the enterprise version. And you and I have talked... Second, my God.

Joel Cheesman (32:30.642)

We know Dick Butkus, famous football player from Chicago. Second only Al Bundy in record holdings,

The Chad (32:38.605)

We've talked about EOR companies on this show for years now and easily it could be the new staffing model and before Deal and Ripling started their feud and we cast them as the best suited to really up and start the staffing market because obviously they're on the payroll side, cross borders. mean, they're just doing everything. Now they're going up to the top of the funnel, which means they can help companies through the entire talent lifecycle, which is pretty exciting.

but also scary if you're staffing firm. Plus, we've seen the biggest staffing companies in the world, like Ronsod and Indeco, they have no clue what to do with technology. Case in point, their failures with Monster, Vetteri, hired. The president and CEO, Hayden Brown of Upwork said, we generated our highest ever Q2 revenues, $194.995 million, which was...

performance driven AI focused. They've got so many different monetization models that they're focusing on. They're doing things that the staffing companies are not doing. So they're looking at honing in on that huge staffing TAM, but also there's advertising in there as well. Now, yes, I understand. Ron Stodd last year made $26 billion. So 200 million means nothing. A deco, 25 billion. Totally get that. But if you remember,

Netflix was really small. Blockbuster had 9,000 worldwide locations, 9,000. They were smug when Netflix walked into their offices. But now they're not fucking smug, right? Every staffing company should be, should actually have posters that say, kind, rewind all over their place, all over the place to remind them that a 9,000 pound gorilla like Blockbuster

fell to a little bitty Netflix. And now that we're in the era of AI, agentic orchestration, whatever you want to call it, it can happen so much faster. So I see this as literally an assault on the staffing, on the staffing industry.

Joel Cheesman (34:57.566)

Have you seen the videos online where they take teenagers and they ask them about things from the past? Like what are yellow pages? And one of them is what is Be Kind Rewind? And they have no clue. Anyway, we just lost a few of our few members of our audience on that one. This is a bold move. No matter how you slice it, it's a big move. It's the adage, you know, the innovators dilemma.

The Chad (35:02.677)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Rewind. Yeah.

The Chad (35:14.315)

Looking up kids, Jesus.

Joel Cheesman (35:25.086)

If we're going to disrupt somebody, we're going to disrupt ourselves. And that is what Upwork, uh, as far as I can see, is hoping to do. I think AI has flipped the, their old model on its head. Upwork went public before the pandemic. It spiked during the pandemic because everybody was like doing three jobs and a full-time job and doing stuff on Upwork. at least the, you know, things were good. And then AI happened and the, the, you know,

The Chad (35:25.389)

Yes.

The Chad (35:41.195)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (35:52.301)

Mm.

Joel Cheesman (35:54.435)

used to go to Upwork. I need a, I need a page developed. I need a banner ad. I need a logo. I need like all these sort of little things that small businesses need. And to some degree, bigger businesses would go to Upwork. Well, AI does a lot of that. AI will make your image for you. AI will write your email for you. AI will do all of that. So Upwork clearly, yes, Upwork with us, you know, recreating Lynn Dawson's, smoking addiction. Like clearly Upwork said,

The Chad (36:13.549)

promotional video.

Joel Cheesman (36:24.186)

shit. Like fewer jobs are coming in. have fewer, fewer contractor freelancers that can charge what they used to charge. So we're making less money on fewer jobs. think this was a desperation move to say, look, we have to take a huge swing here or else we're going to be out of business in 10 years. And that's what this whole thing is. They're taking a swing, not only at staffing, from my perspective, they're going after.

Uh, the deals of the world, the big, just the bigger companies, this is a $650 billion market. And Upwork is hoping to take a piece out of that 650. They have a ton of competition. They do have some name recognition. They do have core their website, 25,000 companies that use the service or have used the service, the Upwork, not the lifted. So, so they're making a play for a really big market.

Time will tell if it, if it up works, if it up works, I don't know. Uh, but, but, uh, yeah, this is, uh, this is a big swing and I, I got to applaud them to do this. mean, uh, indeed it's taken big swings. These guys you got, these are desperate times for a lot of companies and they're, they're putting their money where their mouth is and making big moves. I can't hate it. I can't hate it.

The Chad (37:23.245)

Ha ha.

The Chad (37:42.702)

And we're starting to see staffing companies actually saw a report today that Hayes, a big staffing company, I believe just in Europe, took a huge hit. And that's going to happen. What happened when Indeed actually overtook Monster and Career Builder? We had a huge market hit, right? We had the financial collapse in 2008. That's an opportunity for these new companies really to reinvent an industry. Is this the time? That's the question.

Joel Cheesman (37:59.988)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (38:11.154)

Yeah, can't hate it. Can't hate it. And I can't hate the people that leave us good reviews. Guys, we're going to take a quick break. Listen to the ads because there's no show without our sponsors. And while you're listening, to your podcast platform of choice and leave us a review. We'd love to hear from

The Chad (38:12.971)

No. Huh?

The Chad (38:21.09)

We love them.

The Chad (38:28.257)

You

I do like to say we're getting a lot of comments on Spotify and YouTube and so that even if you're not giving us reviews, you're commenting, you're engaging, we fucking love that, so keep it up.

Joel Cheesman (38:43.07)

Chad, Deal is back in the news. Bozo's back, Bozo's back. Sorry, Deal's back. Deal's back in the news. A Florida judge dismissed a lawsuit against Deal, not that lawsuit, alleging it helped Russian entities evade US sanctions. Deal's attempting to link this case to a separate lawsuit filed by its rival, Rippling, which also alleges RICO violations. But wait, there's more, Chad. Deal announced AI workforce this week.

The Chad (38:45.282)

Jesus.

The Chad (38:49.261)

You

Hmm

The Chad (39:09.197)

Mm.

Joel Cheesman (39:13.182)

It's a new product enabling customers to create and manage AI agents for automating HR and payroll tasks. The tool currently in beta, you got to sign up for it, covers things like recruitment, payroll compliance, and time off management. Let's check out a promo from the company.

The Chad (39:34.907)

Jesus. That's creepy as fuck.

The Chad (39:44.429)

That's creepy.

The Chad (40:15.725)

I mean, does it feel as creepy to use it does to me where they're actually, they're creating like, you a second you. I mean, the whole cloning thing. I mean, to me, it's just creepy.

Joel Cheesman (40:33.102)

I wasn't hating the twin redheads, but maybe that was just my own personal bias. What stood out to me on that video, did you see anyone over 40? Did you see anyone that looked over 40? There was not a gray hair on any of the employees. Moe is going to be on this like a pit bull on a bologna sandwich. That stood out to me. But what are your thoughts about the news and the lawsuit and deals back?

The Chad (40:35.725)

That was kind of... That might have been bias,

The Chad (40:44.47)

no, no, it did not. Yeah, wow. Age discrimination already, deal. Good job.

Get Mo, get

The Chad (41:03.129)

Well, first, the agents, see our last segment, right? We talk about deal, rippling, up work. I mean, all of these companies, right? They're all going after a much larger TAM. And staffing's a part of that TAM now. They're moving up, right? And this is just going to be the first foray of them going into

agents and they're going to go up the funnel with it. Same thing. you know, I believe staffing will try to do something. Unfortunately, they do have the innovators dilemma, much like, again, Blockbuster had and Netflix beat him out. Monster and Career Builder had innovators dilemma and indeed came and swept them up. So it can happen. And again, I think that tech is moving so fast right now.

Joel Cheesman (41:47.966)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (41:58.338)

that it can happen much faster than it used to. The court case dismissed, mean, Dio really doesn't understand optics, do they? I mean, don't comment, don't blame Rippling, just allow the dismissal to fade away and get back to doing fucking business. We've always heard, and the person who said this is a fucking idiot, we've always heard, any PR is good PR. That's total bullshit because anyone in PR understands, they're wincing. They understand,

Optics and the impact on the brand on sales and on company growth. So for me, it's Just shut up and dance kids. Shut up. Get back to business Get back to business

Ridiculous.

Joel Cheesman (42:43.614)

they're spinning it as a PR move for sure. look, they're getting calls from customers and prospects. What's this lawsuit shit? What's going on? They're going to spend this to customers and prospects of like, did you see the court case got thrown out and they're going to try to like wrap it in some rippling lawsuits. So the customers just go, the lawsuits over like it's all good, but it has nothing to do.

The Chad (42:52.279)

drama.

Joel Cheesman (43:11.1)

with the Rippling case. just another court case that Deal has to deal with. I love the Mean Girls component to this. Rippling CEO, Parker Conrad, our favorite, he's on Twitter. He tweeted, quote, this litigation has nothing to do with Rippling. We're not party to it, did not fund it. And then he's also calling out CEO Alex and his father.

The Chad (43:11.405)

Stupid. Yeah.

The Chad (43:24.205)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (43:40.283)

who was chairman and CFO, Philip Boise and saying that they're both going to go down when the truth comes out, et cetera. And then, and then there's this whole, like, our boy, Keith O'Brien over in Dublin who said that he was getting harassed by, I don't know, people watching him. it's, it's, yeah, it's a total, Maxwell Maxwell situation. Everybody's watching me and it cut.

The Chad (43:47.885)

Haha.

The Chad (44:02.423)

fucking

It's a telenovela.

Joel Cheesman (44:06.93)

But it comes out, it apparently came out in the press in Ireland that they did perform, quote, discrete surveillance on Keith O'Brien. So like he's getting surveilled. There's a Twitter war. Like this is just Mean Girls to the hilt and I'm here for it. I think it's hilarious. I can't believe that these companies make so much money and have like so much money in the bank. So that's fun to watch. I also think that.

With Upwork making the move to go sort of this route and as a public company, we're going to see more of what that business has entailed for deal and rippling when they go public. This is sort of a little bit of a window into what that kind of business is going to do on the public markets, but I digress. On the AI agent thing.

The Chad (44:46.775)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (44:59.282)

This is going to be the new SEO. It's going to be the new automation. It's going to be the new AI. Like everybody's going to have agents. It's going to be up to the consumers to find, to figure out whose agents are real, what agents are worth the shit. who, cause just saying we have agents is not going to be the same as we have agents that actually do shit. It's like chat bots, right? We all have chat bots, but some are better than others. And it's, there's going to be a real period of like whose agents are better and whatnot. I do think the ad was kind of whack.

The Chad (45:18.377)

Exactly. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (45:29.09)

The guy in the cowboy hat. I don't know what that was about the dude with the arms that came out and then like no, no people over 40 as a gen X or I'm very offended, offended by that, but, I'm here for it. think it's, I think it's fun. I think it's fun. I can't wait for the rippling deal case to go to court and that's just going to be fucking circus. Yeah. yeah. Yeah, please. Please God. All right, let's get to our next story.

The Chad (45:43.149)

Get back to work. Get back to work, God damn it.

The Chad (45:49.517)

Can't wait for the Netflix series.

Joel Cheesman (45:55.359)

the U S department of labor announced the availability up to 30 million in funding for the industry driven skills training fund grant program. the grants will provide outcome based reimbursements to employers for training and high demand and emerging industries, including AI, advanced manufacturing and shipbuilding. Chad, your thoughts.

The Chad (45:55.49)

Okay.

The Chad (46:16.385)

I didn't realize this administration was a socialist party. That's what I don't get. What kind of corporate welfare bullshit is this? Apple spends $55 billion in China every single fucking year, and they've trained 28 million employees in China. 28 million. If you need more background to check out, just go ahead and you can see we did interview.

Patrick McGee, who's the author of Apple in China. That gives you a little bit deeper dive. if this administration, Keith, listen up, buddy. If this administration wanted to move the needle, they should pull all the tech bros into the oval, slam your fucking fist on the table and say, where or what are you doing to train your workforce? Hey, Tim, Tim Apple, you're spending $55 million in China. What are you spending here?

Zuck, you fuck. What about you, Elon, Teal, Sundar? You know, what kind of money are the biggest companies in the world investing in their current employees, in their community and in their fucking country? That's a baller move. This is not a baller move. A piss ant, piss ant. Thirty million dollars. That's fucking. That's shameful. OK, number one. Number two.

Joel Cheesman (47:27.006)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (47:42.156)

The companies can pay for this shit. Call those motherfuckers onto the carpet and get them to invest in our country. They're already investing in other countries. Billions and billions of dollars. And yet, what do we do? here's some corporate welfare. Fuck that. Fuck that.

Joel Cheesman (47:50.014)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (48:02.718)

So you're not buying it, Chad? Is that what I'm hearing? You're not buying it.

The Chad (48:05.057)

Keith, come on man. No.

Joel Cheesman (48:07.838)

mean, that's my first thought. was like, how many zeros did this headline leave off? $30 million? I mean, look, ICE is getting 8.7 billion increase from the big, beautiful bill. The 30 million, literally for the federal government, like they just made that in like, I don't even know why this is a story. The story should be like, why are we only spending this much on these items?

The Chad (48:14.765)

Still.

The Chad (48:37.547)

We shouldn't be spending it.

Joel Cheesman (48:37.988)

What, what, well, so, okay. So there are many layers to this from, in my opinion, there, there are certain things. Government gives benefits and pay payola for when they want something to happen. So the chips act, we want chips made in this country. We want like from a security perspective, et cetera. So like we're to spend money to give benefits to companies. And then Intel of course buys back at stock or whatever the hell they did. So, so.

The Chad (49:03.179)

Yes, exactly.

Joel Cheesman (49:04.286)

So both sides do this, uh, and it either works or it doesn't. mean, what, what's, what stood out stood out to me as the ship building component. And I know you think I'm crazy and I'm a conspiracy theorist, but like that, that is a so China, uh, defense move. China, China's shipyard manufacturing.

The Chad (49:06.327)

corporate welfare. Yeah, they're all wrong.

The Chad (49:22.337)

It is. It is.

Joel Cheesman (49:27.504)

is approximately 23.2 million gross tons annually. This is reported by the US Office of Naval Intelligence. 23.2 million gross tons. You know what the US produces? 100,000 gross tons. So China is manufacturing 232 times greater capacity for shipbuilding. You know why the Allies won World War II? There's an old saying, they won it with Russian blood.

The Chad (49:39.531)

Maybe a tenth of that. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (49:56.863)

British intelligence and U S industry. We have no industry to fight a war like we did in the past. And if, if a conflict comes out with China, we're in trouble, uh, because it's going to be far in the oceans. And we're just at a point where we have to put the government behind some efforts to make shipbuilding a thing again. By the way, if you're a kid looking for a job or business, shipbuilding is going to be a thing. Cause I think.

The Chad (50:00.311)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (50:22.142)

I just don't think 30 million does. 30 million is like what a missile. mean, it's just like such a small amount of money to make a difference. I don't know if it's like, let's put a little bit out there, like make a little seed investment. Let's see what companies or organizations kind of rise to the top and then we'll put more money into them. I mean, it just feels really weird to have such a small amount of money towards such an effort.

The Chad (50:46.061)

We used to, in the United States, spend money in our communities to develop our communities. We don't do that anymore. Apple's spending billions of dollars developing communities in China, okay? So I don't care if it's $30, 30 billion or 30 million. That shouldn't be something that the US spends. We should demand that fucking companies, the tech bros, are spending that kind of cash here.

Right. They trained 28 million employees, Apple employees during the time that they've been there. How many employees have they trained here? I want to see those numbers here. Right. In the U.S. So anyway, I don't think that is a responsibility of the United States. I think we have bigger things to do. We have moonshots to deal with. Right. We have Internet to build. We have lasers. We have I mean, we've got all the big shit. Right. Not this. This is this is.

This is really just.

Joel Cheesman (51:46.214)

If so, if Tim Apple showed up at your house with a million dollars worth of gold, would you change your mind about Apple? Would you change your mind? No.

The Chad (51:49.346)

Hehehehehe

No, mean, first and foremost, I'm in a good position. mean, if I had a million dollars, it'd be great. It'd be great. But no. Yeah. That's unfortunately that that's it.

Joel Cheesman (51:58.205)

I'm saying that rhetorically. know you wouldn't, but that's, that's the game we play now. Here's a million worth of gold. Look the other way. we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna start making shit in India. So, so look the other way. All right, guys, if you haven't subscribed to our YouTube channel, you don't see things like this Jersey. You don't see the videos that we're sharing with you all the goodness, the Chad's, don't know. Chad's got so much just Chadness going on. I don't know what else to tell you, but,

The Chad (52:12.653)

The Chad (52:16.107)

Look at

Joel Cheesman (52:26.128)

Subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be right back.

Joel Cheesman (52:33.086)

humans are so fucked, Chad. here's a sampling of the humans are human humans are. the dad joke is a good note. okay. Here's a sampling of the humans are cook news from the week. number one is startup called Mac. Micro one introduced Zara, a digitized self-proclaimed quote, world's best recruiter. number two, move over human influencers, meet VTubers. Virtual YouTubers are making their creators millions.

The Chad (52:38.903)

Let's end on a good note.

Joel Cheesman (53:02.91)

powered exclusively with AI and three LinkedIn. Our friends, continue to be a virtual playground for both job seekers and employers virtually with one inc.com writer saying he triggered a bot army. That's a robot army, Chad, a fake recruiter spamming him after just one interaction, on a, on a post Chad, do you miss the eighties as much as I do? what are your thoughts on the humans are cooked news from the week?

The Chad (53:32.824)

I always love not having to be home until the streetlights come on. The hardest part about this is that we are humanizing all of these different things, right? Let's say, for instance, like the AI influencer, millions and millions of people watch them, right? And I watched a couple, they were fucking horrible. I mean, they were bad, but that's happening.

I kinda liken this to, which I always thought was crazy, when my kids would watch Minecraft videos on YouTube. Right? So it's almost like it's something that they're used to, watching somebody else do something on YouTube. It's not really a human, it's just a game. This is almost the same kind of feel, but it's almost like we're humanizing it, whether it is bots, and we have...

Joel Cheesman (54:08.878)

huh. Yeah.

The Chad (54:28.301)

really good reasons for that on the hiring side of the house because we threw candidates into black holes for years, right? They deserve some type of interaction. We can't give them interaction at scale because we're humans, we don't scale well. So what do we do? We use bots and we try to give them at least a good experience. The thing is though, through that whole process, we're humanizing the technology and when it starts creating clones, like a deals little commercial there,

Joel Cheesman (54:35.518)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (54:54.718)

Mm-hmm.

The Chad (54:57.675)

It's not gonna be a big deal. it's almost like AI is creeping into our lives very stealthily and it's not leaving kids. It's never gonna fucking leave. Ouch.

Joel Cheesman (55:13.234)

world is getting so dystopian. do long for a simpler time of Jolt Cola and, and, and our Atari video games.

The Chad (55:15.646)

I do.

The Chad (55:24.509)

yeah.

Joel Cheesman (55:26.962)

First and foremost, why is Zara a blonde, blue-eyed, straight out of college, best recruiter in the world? Could we not? DI is dead through technology. The machines are deciding that DI is over for us, based on the deal video and this best recruit in the world.

The Chad (55:43.266)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (55:50.057)

There's a there's a cartoon sausage. If you have some time, go search TikTok for nobody sausage. It's just a, it's not an actor dressed as a sausage. It's not an actor voicing a sausage. It's just a sausage, disco dancing, going to dinner, chairing at a game. He has 22 plus million TikTok followers. He has a brand deal.

The Chad (56:01.419)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joel Cheesman (56:19.046)

He's going to Instagram. If you're, if you're an influencer and now this, this nobody sausage is out social marketing and, and, and, you know, like, how depressed are you? And we're, going into a world where we trust nothing. No one has any, any power, any agency. And it's just, we're, we're just going to be consumers and that that's sort of the end game.

The Chad (56:21.101)

Jesus Christ.

The Chad (56:29.879)

Yeah. Yeah.

The Chad (56:41.088)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (56:47.258)

And not to be conspiratorial, but you talked about socialism. I'm going to quote Karl Marx. And if you haven't like, if you have Karl Marx on your bingo card, make sure you, you stamp that out. But Karl Marx described, a future of alienation. he, he predicted this back in the 1800s and he said, there'll, there'll be a time where individuals seek meaning through buying goods rather than through creative or communal engagement.

The Chad (56:59.149)

have been Marxism.

The Chad (57:04.525)

Mm.

The Chad (57:16.215)

Here we are. Here we are.

Joel Cheesman (57:16.708)

What the hell is happening? we don't, we don't engage anymore. We don't create things anymore. We just buy shit for meaning. And that's just kind of a sad, sad commentary on the state of what's going on. wow. We got deep, deep in that one. Jeez.

The Chad (57:28.013)

Keeping up with the Joneses.

The Chad (57:33.697)

Well, and to bring it out of that, I gotta say, and this is good, bad, or indifferent, Sasquatch and Yeti on TikTok, funny as hell. Not to mention, have you seen the dog podcasts where they've got dogs sitting up in chairs? Okay, so they've got dogs now, dogs now, and they're all over my fucking feed. It is hilarious. I love dogs. They obviously know I love dogs. So the algorithm literally has me pinned.

Joel Cheesman (57:43.379)

Yep.

Joel Cheesman (57:47.922)

I've seen Baby. I've seen Baby. It's probably similar.

Joel Cheesman (57:58.898)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (58:02.962)

Does your feet have

The Chad (58:05.773)

No, I've got you for that. I've got you for that.

Joel Cheesman (58:08.958)

Okay, this is a good one. Okay, we're keeping him clean again. All right, Chad. What did Tennessee... What did Tennessee...

The Chad (58:13.249)

Ha ha ha ha!

The Chad (58:22.477)

River?

Joel Cheesman (58:23.762)

The same thing Arkansas.

The Chad (58:26.825)

Jesus. That was good. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (58:28.84)

Hahaha!

Joel Cheesman (58:35.422)

At least football is played by real people as well as soccer. We have that at least Chad. We out

The Chad (58:39.115)

Yes, thank you.

We out.