It's The End of Entry Level Jobs As We Know It (and I Feel Fine)

Hold onto your headphones, folks, because the Chad and Cheese Podcast is serving up a hilarious, hot-mess buffet of insights that’ll leave you laughing and maybe a little worried about your career!

This episode, your hosts sling snarky banter like baristas tossing espresso shots, breezing through early chit-chat about travel woes, Coldplay’s drama-fest, LinkedIn’s questionable career tips, sports shout-outs, Walmart’s employee discount PR stunt, free swag, and fantasy football.

But the real meat hits after the 15-minute mark, where they dive into the chaos facing recent grads—think degrees collecting dust while the job market laughs. The future of work gets a roasting, with the creator economy shining as the cool kid at the career fair, while AI and economic shenanigans threaten to swipe jobs faster than you can say “pivot.”

Teaching’s future? It’s AI’s new playground. Silicon Valley’s traded ping-pong tables for “purpose,” but don’t get too cozy—tech employment’s a rollercoaster, and global competition’s got everyone sweating.

Job boards like ZipRecruiter are wheezing in the dust, outrun by AI, and in a plot twist nobody saw coming, the hosts ponder if newspaper job ads might stage a retro comeback. It’s a wild, witty ride through the workforce’s new reality—adapt or get left behind, and maybe grab a newspaper just in case.

PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION

Joel Cheesman (00:34.542)

Yeah, it's not a beer belly. It's a fuel tank for a sex machine. Hey, boys and girls, it's the Chad and Cheese Podcast. I'm your co host Joel caught in 4k Cheeseman.

JT ODonnell (00:39.473)

You

Maureen Clough (00:40.512)

What?

Maureen Clough (00:45.759)

And I'm Maureen, I can see Canada from my house, WileyClough.

JT ODonnell (00:50.321)

And I'm JT, I got no name and no game or don't.

Maureen Clough (00:54.145)

you

Joel Cheesman (00:54.338)

And on this episode, the kids are not all right, Silicon Valley gets hard, and our newspaper classifieds back from the dead. Let's do this.

Joel Cheesman (01:07.202)

Hi ladies. Welcome to Chad free, the Chad free episode here, Mr. Yeah. I like my odds. like my odds. So Chad is a gallivanting around in Lisbon, port Portugal. So, he's enjoying a little time with Julie, which gives me more time with the ladies, banter. How's everyone? Maureen, you've gone full native. You've got the, the maple leaf.

Maureen Clough (01:08.917)

Hello?

Yep. Yep.

JT ODonnell (01:12.795)

Joel's outnumbered today.

Maureen Clough (01:30.923)

Thank you.

Maureen Clough (01:36.715)

I'm all in. I'm as close as I can get to that border. yeah, this was actually what I wore around Europe and it was helpful, I would say.

Joel Cheesman (01:36.716)

Hat on.

Joel Cheesman (01:41.068)

You

Joel Cheesman (01:48.366)

Was it helpful? Yeah? People friendlier or they just didn't give you a hard time? Okay, okay.

Maureen Clough (01:48.641)

I think so. think so. Friendlier, yeah. A little friendlier,

JT ODonnell (01:55.826)

When I was in Europe, the only people that gave me a hard time was a couple from Canada. Can't make this up. I'm watching the hurling championships in Dublin, the national sport. And when they found out that a couple, a pair of Americans were in front of them, they launched into politics and somehow it was all my fault. The entire country was my fault. And I just turned around and went, Oh my gosh. Yeah. They were the language.

Maureen Clough (02:01.085)

really? Well there you go. There you go.

Maureen Clough (02:11.905)

It really is. It's your fault.

Joel Cheesman (02:12.748)

That's interesting. I mean, they had a, they had booking.com CEO on CNBC recently and talking about how no one's coming to the U S I mean, it's funny, but it's also horrible because there are a lot of people whose livelihoods are dependent upon Canadians and Europeans come into America and they're still traveling. Canadians are apparently just going to Mexico and Europe and Europeans are going to Asia and other places. So it's.

Maureen Clough (02:25.089)

It's rough.

Maureen Clough (02:36.896)

they are.

Maureen Clough (02:41.985)

It's sad, but I want to say I'm doing my part. I'm going to this thing called Hands Across the Water, which is like a flotilla from the US going up to Canada and staying on Salt Spring Island and actually hanging out and telling everybody, hey, we're here. We're buying your stuff. We love being here. Don't hate us. So that's happening soon. So I'm just going to go ahead and be the diplomat for our country.

Joel Cheesman (02:42.222)

kind of geopolitical.

Joel Cheesman (03:08.494)

So is the Coldplay drama over you think? That was really hot. I'm not seeing as much of it on social media.

JT ODonnell (03:16.613)

I've definitely seen it dying down, you know, I mean, there's got to be more follow-up coming and I'm sure we'll hear every juicy detail. What have you found?

Joel Cheesman (03:18.253)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (03:22.178)

Well, so, so, you know, me, I like doing my, my dirty, dirty homework. And so was curious, cause the, the, the HR head, Kristen Cabot had not left when we last spoke about this topic. She has since left the company apparently, and she is off LinkedIn. so as an HR person to leave it, to leave LinkedIn is like the land of misfit toys. Like you are banished forever. That's, that's, that's pretty rough.

Maureen Clough (03:22.984)

Ha ha ha ha!

Maureen Clough (03:49.037)

man.

Joel Cheesman (03:51.718)

And interestingly, the CEO, Andy Byron, who was also fired or left from his job, he is still on LinkedIn, but no picture. So he's sort of, I'm here, but not here. And interestingly, what's really funny is there's another guy on LinkedIn named Andy Brian, Brian or Byron. And his, his title is literally not the Coldplay guy.

Maureen Clough (04:05.601)

Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh,

Maureen Clough (04:19.137)

That is epic. That's like well played.

Joel Cheesman (04:22.221)

Yeah.

JT ODonnell (04:22.745)

That's incredible branding. That is genius.

Joel Cheesman (04:24.94)

Yeah. Yeah. So, so we, we do have a sense of humor here on LinkedIn occasionally, occasionally. All right. Well, well, JT's on the clocks. Let's get to, let's get to some shout outs. As you know, guys, shout outs sponsored by our friends up North, the Cura that's techs recruiting made cost-effective and easy. My, shout out goes out to Jen Powell, 48 year old who made history this week in the major league baseball,

Maureen Clough (04:30.526)

man.

Joel Cheesman (04:54.526)

Record books for being the first female to call a game as an umpire behind the plate It's a long time coming. You can say what you want. It is progress Major League Baseball is well over a hundred years old It just took a little bit of time to get a woman behind the plate As many of you know that watch sports every other major sport in the US has women referees except except hockey

Maureen Clough (05:06.676)

yeah.

Joel Cheesman (05:22.058)

at this point. So hockey, we're still waiting. I understand it's a little dangerous guy, big guys on ice. You know, the refs don't have sort of a buffer there, but we'll see if women get a, get a nod in, in hockey anytime soon.

Maureen Clough (05:35.553)

Well, I love to hear that about the female umpire that's rad. I'm a huge baseball fan. So it's about, it's about damn time. It's about damn time. Oh yeah. For sure. Of course. Of course. So I know Ichiro. Oh, he's the best. I mean that guy 2001 Ichiro that's peak. I was, he was tops. Yeah. It was amazing. Oh.

Joel Cheesman (05:41.23)

Who are you? Mariners? Okay. They just retired Ichiro's number, didn't they? He's in the hall?

HRO is good.

Joel Cheesman (05:56.814)

See that that hurts me because I was in Cleveland at the time and that was when they had their like super season and they beat the Indians I think in a final game and the Indians lost in Cleveland and I was at that game. yes, each year I was great but as a Cleveland fan that one hurt. 2001 hurt quite a bit.

Maureen Clough (06:13.852)

The man, he's the man. Well, it hurt for us too. We didn't exactly win the World Series. you know, we're still, we're still waiting on that one. It's going to be.

Joel Cheesman (06:21.516)

No, you did not. Those damn Yankees.

JT ODonnell (06:25.361)

So I'm obviously a huge Red Sox fan, especially when they broke the curse. And I was a career coach at the time. And I ended up that year, that first year that they won, getting a young man coming to me for coaching saying, I can't get any jobs. I looked at his resume, he's working for the Red Sox. Like you work for the Red Sox. He goes, yeah, that's the problem. I said, what are you talking about? goes, I get interviews, but all they do when I get in there is they're like, what was it like when you won and why would you ever want to leave this job? He's like, I can't get out of it.

Maureen Clough (06:43.265)

you

Maureen Clough (06:51.337)

Hahaha!

JT ODonnell (06:55.121)

What a crazy Chris. I'm like, this is the only time I've heard this problem ever. You know, and he's like, no one will hire me. They're like, no, no, we're never going to live up to what you have, but we just had to hear from you. He's like, I went on so many wasted interviews. So he, yeah, he was like in the marketing department, right? So just run branded stuff and they pick his brain and they're like, it won't be as good as there. So no, we're not going to hire you. Can you imagine just wasting his time?

Maureen Clough (06:55.143)

That's amazing!

Maureen Clough (07:05.984)

Ha ha ha ha!

Joel Cheesman (07:08.408)

What was his position? what was his profession?

Maureen Clough (07:15.349)

Ha ha ha.

Joel Cheesman (07:20.513)

Interesting.

Maureen Clough (07:20.671)

Ooh, that's pretty hilarious. can say having actually worked as an intern at the Seattle Mariners, that it's not all that it's got to be. I mean, working in sports, you are there constantly. They're like, hey, and this was back in the day when internships were not paid. And so they'd be like, hey, why don't you work all day and then you can come to the game later for free. And I'm like, but I've been here since like 8.30 AM and then you want me to stay till.

Joel Cheesman (07:37.451)

huh.

Maureen Clough (07:48.034)

and that's like, no. So trust me, it's like, it's all glory. It sounds so cool, but as is true of most things, it's like, well, once you get behind the scenes, it's not necessarily all it's cracked up to be.

Joel Cheesman (07:57.126)

Yeah. When I was a job options, this is, this is totally in right field. But, uh, speaking of baseball, the CMO of the calves, the Cleveland Cavaliers became our chief marketing officer. I was like, why would you leave professional sports to come into a.com like risky option? And he said sort of the same thing you do. Like you work all the time. You like base baseball. It's nice if they go on the road trip, you get a little break, but if, if there's constant games, like

Maureen Clough (08:17.728)

all the time.

Maureen Clough (08:21.968)

Yeah, it's so true.

Joel Cheesman (08:24.694)

You're working all night. You're up early with the press and dealing with all that. So yeah, it is glamorous from a title perspective, but it is a hard job. It is a hard job.

JT ODonnell (08:33.199)

This is when he told me that this is referred to as a dirt church job, where you work in the dirt for six days and it's absolutely horrible when on the seventh day you got to go to church and say what you do for a living and everybody praised you. And I was like, dirt church job.

Maureen Clough (08:33.321)

Yeah, the love of the game can only get you so far. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (08:46.954)

Yeah, the dirt church.

Maureen Clough (08:49.791)

Never heard that.

Joel Cheesman (08:51.456)

Wow, we got way off shout outs. Mo, I don't think you even got your shout out in. So let's go back to what you originally were.

Maureen Clough (08:55.967)

yeah, that's right. So my shout out goes to the sandwich slinger in DC. I don't know if you guys have heard about this, but a dude was out in the street and he was shouting at all the feds there and all the police there. And he was holding this subway sandwich. And at one point he just lost his mind and threw it at the officer and hit the officer in the chest.

So he then took off running. I mean, there's a video of this on TikTok and whatnot, and it is absolutely hysterical. It's like peak absurdity. And all I to say is like, thank you for the entertainment. I mean, you have like Jean Perrero or whatever her name is. She's doing videos. She's like, so you can stick your Subway sandwich somewhere else. I mean, it's just like, thank you so much for this hilarity, because we all needed a little bit of comic relief right now. And what's even funnier is

Joel Cheesman (09:24.466)

huh.

Maureen Clough (09:50.218)

Rumor has it that this guy who threw the sandwich works in HR tech. So we'll see if those dots can be connected later, but that's a rumor I heard. I don't want to get in trouble. So I'm not saying the dude's name or anything else, but yeah. So there you have it. It's tied back in. a hundred. Yep. Yep. We'll take it.

Joel Cheesman (09:56.27)

oooo

Joel Cheesman (10:03.25)

If anyone has some insight info out there, let us know about the Sandwich Slinger. By the way, probably the best ad Subway's had in about 20 years. So take that for what it's worth.

JT ODonnell (10:10.373)

Hey, sandwich gate. It's I love it. Hey, I'll dive in speaking of food. Walmart giving its employees 10 % discount on food. Heck yeah. Okay. That's a way to give people a raise. They don't pay taxes on it. Taking them some food, you know, it's out of control right now. I think that is really awesome.

Joel Cheesman (10:24.302)

That is a raise for sure.

Maureen Clough (10:26.465)

We're solid.

Joel Cheesman (10:31.628)

Walmart doesn't get a lot of love on the show. that's, that's good. That's good to, to give them some love, almost as much love, almost as much love as we give on the show here when it comes to free stuff. Maureen, what can our listeners get if they sign up for free stuff?

Maureen Clough (10:31.937)

I hadn't heard that. That's

New and different.

Maureen Clough (10:46.903)

man, you guys just braced yourselves. All right, again, I know I just saw a headline that said that people in the US are drinking less than ever before, but I don't think that includes the listenership of this show. So for those of you who still like to imbibe, we've got some Van Hack whiskey, okay? That's the chicken cock thing that you guys have heard a thing or two about, so you can get that. We also have some beer from Aspen Tech Labs, so another.

JT ODonnell (10:56.784)

solitude.

Maureen Clough (11:14.057)

Sweet shout. If you don't like drinking as much as you like cool duds, you can get a t-shirt from Erin. You can also, if you're into food and if you like Canada, you can get some maple syrup aged in Poppy's bourbon. Back to the booze, man. Poppy's bourbon barrels from our friends up north at Kiora. And if it's your birthday, you could win rum from our friends at Plum. So just head to Chad and Cheese.

Joel Cheesman (11:37.55)

Yeah.

Maureen Clough (11:44.165)

Chad cheese, just kidding, chadcheese.com. Hit the free link and sign up and it's all gravy from there. There we go. I told you I'd screwed up. Told you I would.

Joel Cheesman (11:51.374)

I think Chad did acquire chadanchese.com. So we are good marketing lesson out there kids. Make sure you get as many URLs as possible for the mistyping. So yeah, celebrating another trip around the sun this week is Kevin Kirkpatrick, Bill Peterson, Mark Dubel, Peter Simondel, Amy Chagrin, Andrew Hyland, Patrick Morgan, Ilya Brodsky, Shane Bamfield, Lana Schuman, Chris Muth.

Maureen Clough (12:00.162)

True. Domain sit, baby. You gotta do it.

Joel Cheesman (12:20.428)

Russell Weaver, Kim Luss, Carmen Hudson, Jason Putnam, and no relation, Abby Cheeseman is celebrating a birthday.

JT ODonnell (12:30.223)

Happy birthday. That list is getting long. It's taking the whole show. That's a good sign. Lots of followers.

Joel Cheesman (12:32.832)

It is so many, so many fans. So many people want free stuff. So if you're not on the list, what the hell's wrong with you? All the cool kids are doing it. Abby cheesing, by the way, not my wife, not my sister. I know she gets questions as do I, we are both doing our best to populate the world with Cheesemans though. I think we're both three kids, three.

Maureen Clough (12:38.337)

you

Maureen Clough (12:52.427)

Hahaha!

JT ODonnell (12:53.745)

So her LinkedIn says not associated with Joel Cheeseman in the headline. Is that what it is?

Maureen Clough (12:59.463)

amazing.

Joel Cheesman (13:00.802)

I think she's making a name for herself. think she's, she's making it over there at skill scout. They're making a name, a name for themselves, which brings us over to, to travel. Where the hell are we? Well, they're able to go in now. So our travel is sponsored, sponsored by our friends at a shaker recruitment marketing. we'll be at rec fest. I think at least one of you guys will be too, right? Nashville Nashville. Yeah, both of you guys. Okay. So we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna rock out with our cock out. We'll have plenty of chicken cock.

Maureen Clough (13:03.489)

you

Maureen Clough (13:20.201)

Woohoo, I'm 100, finally.

Joel Cheesman (13:29.036)

They're in Nashville. that's, that's in mid October. And then, now, now confirmed I will be in San Diego, the Wales vagina at ERE. I will be on stage with monster.com founder, Jeff Taylor. That's right. You, you probably heard the episode with him a while back while I'm to be live on stage with the man. So get ready, get ready for that. Almost exciting for me as what's coming up ladies.

JT ODonnell (13:29.893)

the ladies.

Maureen Clough (13:39.649)

What movie was that?

Maureen Clough (13:44.776)

Wow.

Maureen Clough (13:52.011)

Hmm.

Joel Cheesman (14:00.216)

Let's get us some football football seasons around them right around the corner, which means it's time for fantasy football with Chad and cheese sponsored by our friends at factory fixed you ladies play little fantasy football.

Maureen Clough (14:13.215)

Do not, do not.

Joel Cheesman (14:14.2)

Do not, JT is silent on this one. So luckily.

JT ODonnell (14:17.361)

No, the only time I ever did fantasy football was in high school and I sat down, the guys needed extra money. So they saw me coming in, said, what you have to do is pick and I go, okay, well tell me the color of everybody's shirts. And so they went through, I picked the colors of his shirts, I won the pool, nobody spoke to me, nobody allowed me to be in the pool again. So they needed the money.

Maureen Clough (14:17.397)

Hahaha

Maureen Clough (14:28.457)

Ha ha ha!

Joel Cheesman (14:29.196)

There.

Maureen Clough (14:33.963)

That's amazing. I love it.

Joel Cheesman (14:34.346)

They needed the money. They needed the money. Well, luckily, luckily for us, there are plenty of women out there who do play fantasy and have signed up for a chance to play with us. If you'd like a chance, go out to a few places, hit us up on social media, go to Chadcheese.net slash fantasy hyphen football. You can go to Chadcheese.com, click some links, sign up for a chance. This is our third year with fantasy fix. They are in it to win it and they are sending us some custom jerseys.

Maureen Clough (15:03.317)

Ooh.

Joel Cheesman (15:03.362)

which we're sure to be dawning any day now. So who's ready for some football and who's ready for some topics?

JT ODonnell (15:04.688)

Nice.

Maureen Clough (15:05.697)

That's pretty sick. Maybe I should join this year.

Joel Cheesman (15:16.59)

All right guys, AI's rapid adoption and a post pandemic hiring slowdown are making it tougher for recent college graduates to secure entry level jobs in competitive fields like tech and finance despite strong resumes and internships. Unemployment rates for grads now exceed the national average as well, but wait, it gets worse. Check out this recent clip from Bloomberg.

Joel Cheesman (16:32.301)

All right, JT, you're hot on this topic. What you got? What you got?

JT ODonnell (16:34.125)

I am. I'm angry. I just because we continue to feed this societal line that, you know, having a college degree guarantees you better paying jobs or putting people in the massive debt over that. As we've talked about on previous shows, 60 percent of the grads are women who we've told get a degree to close a wage gap that we're already behind. And it just the fact that they're the emotional damage like you joke about that. But you sat there, you've spent maybe your parents money, certain your money, your in debt.

and you can't even get a job to pay the loan. mean, my feed blows up with the story after story of people figuring out that the interest rates alone on these loans aren't being covered off on their two years into paying off a college degree and they haven't even paid down the principal. It's ugly, it's terrible, and it's not gonna get any better, right? It gets worse before it gets better, I think AI, I am optimistic AI is gonna create an incredible amount of opportunity in the future, but that's not gonna help now in the next 24 months.

And so to me, this is a cute, I think it's a wake up call that things are shifting. And certainly I'm doing everything in my power with my platform to bring awareness around this and showing people what they can do instead of, because there are none of those entry level jobs for these kids to get.

Joel Cheesman (17:49.038)

Let's go into that silver lining for those out there that have kids or if you're in that boat yourself. Like what advice do you give people that aren't?

Maureen Clough (17:52.54)

Hahaha

JT ODonnell (17:55.522)

Yeah. Yeah. So here's the thing that it's hard for people to realize is that AI is going to bring about a Renaissance era, which means we're all going to be able to study things and learn about things that we want to learn about and actually monetize on it. You know, we already know that a very robust creator economy exists. What people don't realize yet, but we do, is that a 480 billion with a B dollar knowledge creator economy is coming. And so a great example of that is most people don't understand that TikTok in China is education based on. They're learning and sharing knowledge.

We have a massive opportunity to pivot in that direction. And you might think, well, how does it happen? These young people, well, first of all, they're very tech savvy. They were raised on this technology. And two, they do have something to share. They can show what they're learning as they're learning it and monetize that. so right now there's a lot of technology. I'll give a huge shout out to one of my partners, subs.com. Tim Stokely, the original creator of OnlyFans has built something bigger, better, for the knowledge economy worker, right? And saying, hey, let's take what you know, whether it's project management, Excel, you know,

anything, cybersecurity, and let's put it out there. And this will create an economy and economy feeds itself. And so these young people are figuring this out and saying, all right, I'm going to get on and tell my story and learn as I go. And the income opportunities that open up from that, the monetization that's already happening is mind blowing. You know, we're already seeing it with the white collar workers that we've signed and the former FBI investigator, cyber psychologist, you know, AI product designer. These people are saying, forget the full-time job that I'm not going to go fight for scraps anymore.

right? Bare-knuckle brawl to try to get a job, the humbling experience of applying with 5,000 other people. I'm going to pivot and I'm going to share my knowledge and I'm going to get paid for it and I'm going to do it on my own terms, right? And so stop trading time for money, start trading knowledge for money. And if I can solve a problem and it's worth a thousand bucks to you, but it takes me 10 minutes, it's a win-win. That's where we're headed. There really is a huge robust future coming and it's been paved the way by the creator economy. It's just going to take a while for people to understand it, embrace it and adopt

Joel Cheesman (19:54.126)

So you're saying my hours of viewing big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok are not helping my professional options.

JT ODonnell (20:02.513)

It makes you're helping somebody else. You're lying to someone else's pockets, right? And that's the interesting thing about it. So thank you for giving to the economy, Joel. Thank you.

Maureen Clough (20:10.145)

Hahaha

Joel Cheesman (20:10.859)

No problem, I'm happy to do my part. Mo, what are your thoughts?

Maureen Clough (20:14.229)

You know, I just, my heart breaks for Gen Z right now. And not only do they have all of what just JT has explained to us and just an uphill battle as well as some silver lining for sure, but they also are facing a really intense ageism. People are always shitting on Gen Z and it's deeply unfair. And I hope they can tap into what I have seen out there, which is that Gen Z confidence and just like go forward with, you know, gusto and, and feel like they can go out and change the world because

We need that energy right now. just, I really, I think back to when I started my career and how valuable it was for me to have mentors and to be in the workplace and all of that. And I just, I really feel horrible that they're not getting the opportunity to learn the ropes that way. And I do think if we can continue to focus in on the opportunity, that is a great thing. You know, we want to force the, we want to.

bring people into the creator economy for sure. But I do think when it comes to sharing professional advice and professional knowledge, it's hard to do that if you haven't had professional experience, right? And so I think about some of the things they're up against. And yes, it's all changing, but I just hope that, I don't know, I'm just also worried about the fact that college as it is today, I'm like, I don't know in my heart of hearts if I could look at a child today and be like, you should 100 % go to college.

And when I think about how instrumental college was for me in learning how to be an adult, in creating community, in being out on my own for the first time, I think there's something lost in society when we don't have that as more of sort of the go-to. And I know that's always been something that's been a bit of privilege, right? Or you're willing to take on that risk financially to get the debt incurred to go to college. But I just, wonder.

how that's going to shift things. I just, I don't know, it's hard for me to envision what my life would have looked like not going to college, but it's a new world now. It really is. And when I think about having gone through my whole career, it's like, how often do we even talk about where someone went to college or think about it, right? It's like, especially when it comes to those really expensive universities with the name brands, it's like, I really think that the value isn't there anymore. The value I think is more in the network that you unlock.

Maureen Clough (22:37.621)

by being in a certain place, right? So I don't know, a lot of thoughts, rambling, but I'm just, you know, my heart really breaks for them, period.

Joel Cheesman (22:48.814)

So it's a little bit of a perfect storm, right? You have AI taking particularly tech jobs, lot of intra-level marketing jobs and more sales and customer service, but you also have geopolitical stress. have tariffs, have inflation, economic headwinds are all over the place, uncertainty. And for everyone that's laid off is another person that creates supply. And if demand doesn't change, it's just more and more supply and no demand to take that on. So it's sort of a perfect storm.

Maureen Clough (22:52.011)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (23:18.67)

Financial Times reported recently job postings for entry level in the US and UK have declined 43 % in the US and 63 % in the UK. That's since 2022, almost half a million tech jobs have been lost globally since I think 2022. So it's real for tech people for sure. It was interesting this week, LinkedIn released their top 50 colleges.

It wasn't best colleges. was best colleges for career advancement or to find a career. And as you're looking through them, it was like great network, great entrepreneurial opportunities or now. So it's becoming less about the name and what the college can do for you after and not just the credential. So even colleges, and I think the media is starting to think about if you're going to college.

Maureen Clough (24:03.777)

Totally.

Joel Cheesman (24:10.56)

It's gotta be something other than just, learned X. It has to be what happens after college. And this sits home for me, because I have a kid that's checking into, into IU Indiana university next week. And he is thinking a lot about how AI is going to impact his, his profession and his adult life. And he's getting into at least now, and we all know that as a freshman, it's not necessarily what you're going to be, but he wants to go into teaching.

partly because he's very confident that teaching is not going to go away, that people aren't just going to hand over their kids to machines anytime soon. think that he's right. But I also do think that teaching will be augmented with AI. And what I told him is like, all the older teachers will not know AI as good as you do. So the one advantage that you have as a young person,

Maureen Clough (24:39.851)

Wow.

Maureen Clough (24:48.777)

you soon

Joel Cheesman (25:02.478)

is that you will know AI better than the 45 year old teacher that's been there for a long time. there is some silver lining for youth. You do know something better than the older folks and that's AI and how to use that for your job. take that for what it's worth, but it is bad, adapt or die, right? Darwin, adapt or die.

Maureen Clough (25:22.014)

Yeah.

JT ODonnell (25:23.331)

Yeah, I agree with you. Those that survive this will come out stronger. You know, the bigger the disruption, the bigger the innovation. This is a huge life disruption. I think it'll make them grittier and hopefully hold on to a happy note.

Maureen Clough (25:37.012)

I hope so too. Let's hope so. I'm on board for that. But yeah, I love the teaching idea. I think that's a really excellent one. I think that we need to look for meaning and for purpose and fulfillment too in work. I think a lot of people are having these moments and these crossroads where they're like, what is this all for? What am I doing? And so for your son to be looking into that field, I think is a really good call. Because that's something that's always going to be important, right?

Joel Cheesman (25:37.183)

We'll see.

Joel Cheesman (26:01.72)

Yeah.

Yeah. If you have kids, you have kids, let them know like, is AI going to take this or how can AI help you in that job? And speaking of technology and jobs, let's go to Silicon Valley, shall we? The New York Times this week released an article that says Silicon Valley has shifted from the web 2.0 era of lavish perks and consumer apps to a quote,

Maureen Clough (26:05.385)

actually make the world a better place for real, not like tech companies say that it will.

Maureen Clough (26:14.783)

important.

Maureen Clough (26:20.543)

Ha

Joel Cheesman (26:33.784)

hard tech in quote AI driven age with a focus on complex technologies like neural networks and defense systems. the tech hub moved to San Francisco where AI startups like open AI thrive, layoffs that giants like meta, a rightward political shift and competition with China, Mark a leaner, more serious industry, though optimism persists amid ethical and job displacement concerns. Mo as our West coast correspondent.

Maureen Clough (27:01.983)

Ha ha ha ha!

Joel Cheesman (27:02.476)

What are your thoughts on tech getting hard?

Maureen Clough (27:05.779)

man, has it ever gotten hard. I remember when I was working in tech, my friends, my family, they'd be like, dude, your job is so cussed. You can work from home. can WFH, work from Hawaii, do whatever you want. It's so forward thinking. You have the Nerf guns. You got the bean bags. You got the free this, free that, all that stuff. Perks galore. Those are just gone now. Just 100 % gone. And it seems like it's been replaced with this mentality and this sense of, hey, if you have a job here, you're lucky.

you should consider yourself lucky. And it's been replaced with this intense micromanagement and fear-driven culture. And it's really, I think, going to stifle innovation and creativity at these organizations because people are holding onto their jobs and they're looking over their shoulder and they're wondering if they're next on that layoff list. What's that going to do to these companies' ability to innovate? I think it's gonna be really disastrous for them. And it's such a stark.

change. And I know there was over hiring during COVID and all of that, and that they've slashed the workforce accordingly. But the pendulum has swung so freaking far from like, let's treat people like humans, and let's give them some perks and some reasons to want to come and be at this company. And let's compete in the marketplace that is set by places like Google, right? Like in the, in the day, Google was setting the standard, the gold standard, and every other company had to kind of like rise to that level. And now it's all being

just taken crashing down. it's, know, people are just seeing what's happening and they're like, why the fuck am I working in this industry? Like, I can't tell you how many people I've spoken to lately who were like, this is not what I signed up for and this is not what it was supposed to be. And, you know, I wish I had never done it to begin with. I wish I'd gone into something that had more purpose and meaning, you know, and people are shifting their lives. They're going into the creator economy as JT was talking about. That's a huge push to solopreneurship, entrepreneurship.

So I guess the silver lining from tech going hard and hardcore, right? And being all about the year of efficiency and whatnot is that we are going to see brand new companies and entrepreneurs emerge out of this that I believe are going to start creating the company cultures that they wish they had seen in tech. And that perhaps were there a little bit earlier in time, but that culture, it's decimated and it's just insane to me. Yeah, it did. It sure did. So.

Joel Cheesman (29:27.244)

Don't get a job at the Red Sox. Right, JT? What are your thoughts?

JT ODonnell (29:28.849)

Right. Well, you know, so, you know, a big article came out this week saying it's an end of an era of large companies. You know, there's one predictor. said, look, there's 80,000 jobs right now at Microsoft that have human beings in them that can be replaced by AI. And we've said this all along. Companies don't want more employees. They want less. Employees are expensive, unreliable. They talk back. Right. You know, we've just seen enough in the news. They all want to go the way of AI. But I see why it's an even bigger deal in tech. And that's because

Maureen Clough (29:30.657)

you

Maureen Clough (29:36.469)

Mm.

Maureen Clough (29:50.664)

my god.

JT ODonnell (29:56.236)

I ran a division of Ronstadt in the late nineties in the heart of Silicon Valley. And the demands that tech workers made when it was still booming blows my mind. And the biggest one I recall is that, you know, they would steal tech workers and the tech worker would stay for four months with a signing bonus. And the month was over, they'd go to the next one. It was just a crazy game. But we had one guy that they wanted really badly and he said, fine, but I need an office with no windows and a door that locks. And that's the only way I'll come program for you.

And we were like, why? And he goes, because I program in the nude. And they gave it to him. And they gave it to him. And so you think about that whole world out there. I just think everybody's so done with it. Everybody wants to work with four or five of their besties and outsource everything else to AI. Let AI be the staff. That is literally where everybody's thinking it's going right now, because they're just so done with people. to me, it doesn't surprise me. I think it's going to be fascinating.

Maureen Clough (30:29.373)

my God. Wow. Okay.

Maureen Clough (30:50.666)

Yeah, people do.

JT ODonnell (30:54.221)

when they need to start to meet people again, how they're going to bring them back. But it's a whole different breed out there. Let's just call it. OK, it's a different breed out there.

Joel Cheesman (30:57.442)

Mm-hmm.

Maureen Clough (30:58.273)

Ha ha ha!

Joel Cheesman (31:01.87)

I want to podcast in the nude, but Chad won't let me for some reason. don't know why.

Maureen Clough (31:05.761)

Only fans, man. That's your platform. That's your platform, Joel.

JT ODonnell (31:06.683)

Thank you, Chad. Thank you, Chad.

Joel Cheesman (31:10.86)

Maybe. So I want to quote the Minneapolis poet Prince when I say parties weren't meant to last. on the periphery, there are some things working here. think remote has failed to a large degree in Silicon Valley. You have Eric Schmidt of Google fame going on interviews saying remote stupid and companies that have a work life balance are going to fail. Again, you have

Maureen Clough (31:21.825)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (31:39.714)

displacement of tech workers, the year of efficiency, like Maureen said, which we've talked extensively on the show. And then again, the wage pressures of oversupply, the more unemployed tech workers, the lower you have to pay them because there's more supply than there is demand. I do think a bigger, picture thing here is China. Look, I think BYD, I think DeepSeek, I think TikTok.

Maureen Clough (31:41.377)

I

Maureen Clough (31:54.697)

Yep.

Joel Cheesman (32:06.026)

Even Luckin coffee has opened stores in the U S where they have $2 coffee, right? Which is gonna, which is going to disrupt Starbucks and Duncan and everything else. look after world war II, America was in the catbird seat. Things were good. The fifties man were good. Not for good for everybody we know, but they were good times for Americans. And then in 1957, Russia launched Sputnik and America said, holy shit.

We need to get our act together and we need to get serious about what's going on in the world. And I do think that China doing what it's doing. And I haven't even talked about the military aspects of this have really told Silicon Valley like, we have some real, real competition and we need to get serious, get rid of the ping pong tables, get rid of the, you know, the, the, the chef catered lunches and get serious. And ultimately competition is.

Maureen Clough (32:53.057)

you

You

Joel Cheesman (33:01.12)

affecting Silicon Valley in a way that it probably isn't in other parts of the world because of what China is doing. Guys, we're going to take a quick break. If you haven't subscribed on your podcast platform of preference, please do that. Mo is going to play us little song on the piano and we'll be right back.

Maureen Clough (33:09.771)

that make sense?

Maureen Clough (33:13.921)

Maureen Clough (33:18.801)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (33:23.822)

All right guys, ZipRecruiter, because no other podcast on the planet will talk about ZipRecruiter but us. No one even listens to their own podcast over at ZipRecruiter. So they reported their 11th consecutive quarter of year over year revenue decline, attributing it to depressed labor demand. It was a real optimistic call. It's focused on smaller employers. However, the company noted stabilizing quarter on quarter trends and expressed optimism.

JT ODonnell (33:25.937)

Who?

Maureen Clough (33:27.602)

Hehehehe

Maureen Clough (33:32.769)

You

Joel Cheesman (33:50.944)

about a potential return to modest year over year revenue growth in Q4. turns out that the floor is a pretty good stabilizer and that's kind of where they are, the basement. They also launched Breakroom, who were they acquired a year ago in the US. help Breakroom, you don't know, helps companies monitor employee sentiment, similar to sort of an internal glass door. JT, you talk to a lot of job seekers. What's your take on Zip's future?

Maureen Clough (33:58.722)

You

JT ODonnell (34:19.761)

So I don't know if you saw the article this week in Business Insider about, they're calling it quiet cracking. And that the amount of people that are literally cracking under the pressure of being in a job, hanging on with two hands, white knuckles, because they're fearful of losing their job because they know there are no other jobs out there. And that depression that's coming in. the data in break room is going to be, I think we can pretty much guess what's going to come out of that data. Do we need it though? I guess is my question.

Isn't it pretty obvious where we are with this and how people are feeling and our company is even in a position right now to utilize that data in some way, or form. Do they care? Are they worried about retention? I'll say it once. I'll say it again. Every job is temporary. You are a business of one loyalty to his debt a long time ago. Right. And so why don't we just call it what it is? Right. I'm a business of one selling my services to you in some capacity. Stop thinking it's a full-time long-term job with benefits.

It's, you know, day by day, week by week. And as long as the partnership works for both parties, great. If it doesn't, it doesn't. just think this whole idea of this whole employee and we care and we're family. I just think it's gone. I think we need to rip the bandaid off and get a lot more us to that. These are partnerships. Make sure the partnership works for each side. If it doesn't decide, it's not happy needs to do something about it. Like that's where we're at with this. It's not family. Family doesn't throw you out in the street when you're hitting hard times. It's not family.

And so I think this is a wake up call. Do we need this break room to know that? I personally don't think we do, but prove me wrong guys.

Maureen Clough (35:57.922)

Totally agree. The contract is just completely broken between employer and employee. We know that. We all have to adopt, adapt to it. It sucks though. I want to say, I wonder what is going to change in our society by virtue of the fact that we no longer have any stability when it comes to jobs. Think about what that's going to do to families, right? People are already struggling to, you know, get food on the table and keep a roof over their heads. And now you don't have at least

Joel Cheesman (36:00.716)

Mo?

Maureen Clough (36:26.847)

the option of staying with a company for all that long. Many, many people do not. Some of course do. But it's just, you think about how that stability has allowed society to continue and the fact that it's going away, that there's gonna be this sort of gigification of all employment. It makes you wonder, like, well, how do we support our future? Like, how do we support the kids, right? And that's when I start getting pretty freaked out about it because the truth is,

Joel Cheesman (36:38.531)

Mm-hmm.

Maureen Clough (36:54.777)

As someone who's a solopreneur or a content creator or entering the creator economy, you have to wear a gazillion different hats. And a lot of people are not very skilled at things like selling, right? Like everybody has to become a salesperson if you're looking for the next gig constantly. I mean, going into consulting is great until you realize, my gosh, like I put out several proposals and they're not coming back and you know, or even if I get one, like that has a, an end date.

And then you have to keep on filling up the ability to continue going on to other places. it just seems like, it just saddens me when you consider the fact that in yesteryear you would be able to go and have a 30 year career and get a gold watch and that provided such an incredible stability. And when you have two household incomes and you have two people trying to figure this all out, that puzzle just seems really difficult. But I agree with JT.

JT ODonnell (37:54.469)

Yeah.

Maureen Clough (37:54.634)

We are where we are. It's very unfortunate, but I think we have to wake up and we have to change our behavior knowing what's coming.

Joel Cheesman (38:02.84)

Yeah, JT.

JT ODonnell (38:02.949)

Yeah. And Joel, before you jump back in, I just want to say, for me, I always saw this as the future of staffing. Because if you worked for a staffing company, like that's what got me into staffing. When I, when I realized when I joined Ronstadt is the first time I understood these weren't the underemployable. These were talented people that we could redeploy bench. started hearing about all of that. I love that idea for us in the future. What if you could work some place where you could just constantly be redeployed? Cause that takes away some of that stress that you talked about Mo. I hope that that's where we end up. that.

Joel Cheesman (38:12.174)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (38:32.173)

that we can give people continuity, which I think is the fear, but also the variety to rescale and to work on various different projects. That's my hope is where it ends up, but who knows? don't know. Joel, what do think?

Maureen Clough (38:33.131)

I too.

Joel Cheesman (38:45.614)

So I'm going to bring us back to ZipRecruiter, which was our initial summary. And that's what most of our listeners come here for. Anyway, they want to know how much Zip sucks. So I'm going to leave that alone. so I bet I get little alerts on my phone about when stocks hit lows or highs and big highs and lows. I've recently got a lot of ZipRecruiter hits all time lows.

JT ODonnell (38:48.675)

Sorry, Zev.

Maureen Clough (38:48.731)

that's right. My bad.

Hahaha.

Joel Cheesman (39:12.674)

So I post this on LinkedIn and just like, haha, or bye bye bye. Or, you know, I, I little snarky comment and, there was an old adage or someone said like, Hey, is it really time to buy? Is it bottom? And there was an old thing we say at the fraternity when a girl was like, not very attractive, we would say, I wouldn't fuck her with your dick. You guys probably never heard that. So when they asked me, would I buy this? I'll say it a better way. I wouldn't, I wouldn't catch this falling knife with your hand. now they had, they had a little.

Dead cat bounce this week. Goldman Sachs sort of was more optimistic about them, but look, job boards had a hard time when times were good. You think they're not going to do when times are shitty, which we can all agree times are getting pretty challenging in terms of what the data has said. I zip stability. Sure. The basement is a good, is a good stabilizer. I wouldn't, I would not touch this thing with anything. I'm not bullish on it.

On the, on the, the break room thing, I just don't see how glass door indeed reviews for anybody is going to survive AI. It is so much better to go to AI and say, what's it like to work at Salesforce or GE? It will give you a thorough answer based on all kinds of data from all over the web. Why would I go to a single point of data and say like, what's it like working here? It's just so antiquated.

I just don't see how that's going to get any, any traction in the future. I just don't see it.

Maureen Clough (40:41.237)

I don't know, that's where you get the good stories. That's where you get the tea. You see the angry ex-employees who just go on the rant. But it has to be condensed. You could, but are they gonna give you the blow-by-blow account of what happened? I don't know. They're gonna probably pull a, you know, sort of a summary, right? Yeah, yeah.

Joel Cheesman (40:46.668)

You can still get that on AI. You can say, me the pros and cons of working at this company.

Joel Cheesman (40:59.118)

They're going to pull a banana in the tailpipe again on you. Yeah. All right. Let's take another quick break guys. and we will talk about, well, if you had, if you had a revival of classifieds in the newspapers on your bingo card, it's your lucky day. That's what we're going to talk about when we come back. If you haven't subscribed to us on YouTube, head out to youtube.com slash at Chad cheese and get our pretty mugs all over your computer screen.

Maureen Clough (41:10.793)

Okay.

JT ODonnell (41:13.349)

Ding, ding, ding, ding.

Joel Cheesman (41:27.136)

All right, guys, it's back to the future. A recent Wall Street Journal topic. guess they're running out of topics. Highlighted reviving newspaper job ads amid AI fueled application overloads and recruiter burnout. Employers use print for fewer higher quality applicants in tech and finance roles in particular, bypassing ATS issues and adding filters like hidden instructions.

Maureen Clough (41:33.601)

Ha!

Joel Cheesman (41:54.21)

Job seekers benefit from less competition, but experts doubt a major comeback due to declining print readership and demographics. JT, you remember newspapers. What's your take?

JT ODonnell (42:06.513)

I do. So I remember when newspapers, we've talked about this before, outsourced their classifieds to CareerBuilder and said, we'll make your digital classifieds for you and you'll make money with every click. you know, the first three months they make all this money and then all of a it was gone because their entire newspaper base didn't go to the newspaper anymore. They just went straight to CareerBuilder. I mean, it was a genius play on CareerBuilder's part, right? But it decimated newspapers, decimated income. And so...

Joel Cheesman (42:27.064)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (42:31.953)

I think it's funny that they're thinking it'll make a comeback. I just think job descriptions being publicly posted as a whole will die. I do. I think that there's going to be far more sophisticated platforms where you're going to put in what you're about. You're going to authenticate your knowledge, your skillset, and the AI is going to be able to read that, interpret it, and then present to you opportunities that are automatically a 90 % match. I just think we're going to start hiding jobs that you're not a match for because, you know, I posted one yesterday.

This company hosted an internship at 9 a.m. at 11 a.m. HR said, it down, we have 5,000 applicants.

Maureen Clough (43:08.897)

my gosh, it's brutal.

JT ODonnell (43:11.121)

I mean, this is, stop posting jobs, stop. Like the AI won't be here in two years. It'll be within the year. People are going to be showing us a tool that says, Hey, you know, just talk to us a little bit, you know, answer these questions and we'll match you to jobs. And these will be the ones you see. That's the future. So, um, the one thing I'm excited about in the midst of all this is that, you know, sites like HireVue that force you to.

Maureen Clough (43:15.627)

Yeah.

JT ODonnell (43:35.696)

you know, open a video link, record a video, your video goes away, you don't know where it goes, and somebody decides if they're going to interview you has left a really bad taste in the mouth of the job seekers, right? That has made them lose control. If we're to learn anything from this is you get more flies from honey than vinegar. So what you do instead, is you build opportunities where you say, if you want to work for us, if you like our company, the way that you're going to definitely get viewed is if you choose voluntarily to record some video where you talk about what you know and how you know about it and submit it, you will get preferential treatment over somebody who doesn't do that. And the reason I say that

is because for the longest time, the first thing you did was a recruiter phone screen. And what was the purpose of a recruiter phone screen? It was the interview before the interview to decide if you were qualified. The new interview before the interview, the new recruiter screen is going to be you doing video in your LinkedIn feed or wherever it lands. And that's how AI will decide whether or not you should meet with the hiring manager. That is coming in the next year already seeing with apps like McCoy. So for me, job boards are dead.

Why build them? They're not going to live. know, Monster Curve Builder been gone for a really long time. They're going to continue to die. Hopefully those bigger companies use the money they have to pivot and do something else with their brands before they're too far.

Joel Cheesman (44:49.486)

All right, JT is out on the Five Line newspaper ad coming back. Maureen, what are your thoughts?

Maureen Clough (44:56.277)

I mean, I love a printed paper. I really do. got to say that. But I think the point, it's so Northwest. It's so Northwest. And I actually do subscribe. I do subscribe to the Seattle Times with the print edition on Sunday because it's cheaper that way. So I do enjoy sitting down with that. I think two bigger points. I haven't looked.

Joel Cheesman (45:00.738)

That's so Northwest of you. That's so Northwest U.S. you. You and your flannel drinking coffee, you read the newspaper.

Joel Cheesman (45:19.564)

And what's the classified job section on that Sunday newspaper? What is that like? Well, please look and come back to us on that.

JT ODonnell (45:23.386)

pages.

Maureen Clough (45:24.403)

I'm going to be honest with you. have not looked. I will. I'll let you know. I'll let you know. Yeah, I'll give you, I'll do some research. But I mean, I think when, when push comes to shove, this whole topic is about like how ridiculously like easy it is to apply to jobs and why this creates a proliferation of applications for people, from people who are unserious and creates a complete headache for the recruiters and the hiring managers out there. Right. And if you make it harder to apply for a job, that means fewer people are going to do it. Right. And the people who do.

JT ODonnell (45:28.677)

Research that.

Maureen Clough (45:54.41)

are going to be serious about it. And so I know there was a company I read in an article that had actually had within its job description a link at the bottom that was like, you need to actually apply here, right? Like this is all fake, here's the real link. And like that got 90 % or so of the people out of their pool, right? Because people don't read. And the reality is if you want something hard enough, you're gonna go the extra mile. When I think back across,

all the times I've like spray and prayed with, gosh, I keep hitting that. It's like, sorry, everyone, I've gotta figure out my new pod studio here. But so I spray and prayed my resume everywhere. know, all that, whenever people are just like going out into the ether and just like kind of looking at anything that looks relatively reasonably, you know, good for them as a professional option, like that, I was not serious. If I was serious, if I were serious about a job, I was looking up who the heck did I know who worked.

there, who could give me an introduction to the hiring manager. was trying to figure out who the hiring manager was. I was writing freaking fan fiction about working there in the form of a cover letter, right? Like I tried. And so I think actually making it harder for people to apply means you're going to get better, higher quality candidates and there are going to be fewer of them to sift through. So I'm actually all about it. If you want to put those in the newspaper, go for it. It's actually going to probably help older people, right? Who are facing ageism to get jobs. So there you go.

Joel Cheesman (47:17.954)

There you go, one for the old folks. The one for the old folks. All right guys, you know what time it is.

JT ODonnell (47:18.843)

There we go.

Maureen Clough (47:19.745)

There we go. There we go. So.

boy. I thought it was the dad joke. I was worried. That's coming later. That's next.

JT ODonnell (47:27.025)

Ugh, we are not escaping one. Dang it! I thought we were getting out of one. Yes, Professor Joel.

Joel Cheesman (47:27.52)

That's right. That's right. No, no, no. That, that's, that's, that's after this, but let me, let me, let's gather, gather on the fire here, kids and, learn how, learn how uncle Joel applied for his first jobs. And JT, you're gonna, you're gonna, this will sound familiar to you on Sunday. You got the Sunday paper. you only got jobs that were local. Okay. the ones you, you circled them or you highlighted them. And then on Monday you went to Kinko's.

And you got a good, nice little copy of your resume, a little one pager. And then if you're really good, you created a specific cover letter for each of the jobs that you're interested in. You put it in a nice little envelope. If you're really smart, you send it FedEx and then you knew when it got there. And then you could follow up with a call and say, Hey, I know you got my resume, dot dot dot. Right. And, and so you did that and you applied to maybe five a week and it was a nice system.

Maureen Clough (48:00.162)

Hmm.

Maureen Clough (48:07.929)

yeah.

Maureen Clough (48:15.169)

Good old days.

Joel Cheesman (48:23.938)

Companies only had one avenue to market. You had one avenue to find out about the jobs and like life was pretty good. And then the internet happened and all hell broke loose. So, back to my history lesson, the benefit was it was efficient and we've gotten away from that, but newspapers are not the answer. People, people are not going to start flocking back to the newspapers. This is a call out to HR tech. This is a cry for help that re

Maureen Clough (48:34.561)

Dude. Easy apply.

JT ODonnell (48:41.785)

Amen.

Joel Cheesman (48:53.92)

recruiters are there too many applicants and AI is fucking this shit up. So many applicants, so many, like it's just too much. So HR tech, this is your call to say, give us a product that will pre-screen, filter out whatever you want to call it, all the bullshit and you'll make a mitt. But people aren't coming back to newspapers. Sorry.

JT ODonnell (48:59.483)

green.

Maureen Clough (49:03.169)

It's intense.

JT ODonnell (49:16.905)

Can I just, I can't believe how much I'm agreeing with Joel, like, but at the same time, can we add in there every time you post those jobs and that job seekers convinced they're a match and they don't get called or picked, they're mad at you. Like we have to, you are bringing home the point. Not everybody should know about your jobs. They just shouldn't all know about your jobs. Okay. You gotta hide them to some degree so that only the right people see them because they get so angry.

Maureen Clough (49:17.577)

Hehehehehe

Maureen Clough (49:34.433)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (49:35.918)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (49:43.281)

I have to listen to them every day. I was an 80 % match for that job and I could do the rest. Okay, you and 10,000 other people who were a 90 % match, know, put your ego aside, but try coaching those people on that right now. You can't make your jobs hidden. Hidden.

Joel Cheesman (49:49.251)

Yeah.

Maureen Clough (49:54.672)

that's brutal. Yeah. But make sure that it's not biased.

Joel Cheesman (49:56.11)

Yeah. And I, I've seen, you know, hidden, hidden words and texts. And I've seen where like, people will put like, if you're an AI, you know, right green licorice before your application and it will do it like, so we're playing this weird game of whack-a-mole and, listen, there's, there's no legs. There's no future in it. And by the way, that's the second show in a row that JT and I have been on that she has agreed with me. want to, but she may or may not like, she may or may not like.

Maureen Clough (50:08.385)

Hahaha!

JT ODonnell (50:17.999)

I know!

Maureen Clough (50:20.097)

It's a good streak there. I am, I'm worried. I'm concerned. boy.

JT ODonnell (50:24.069)

I know I'm not going to like the next part.

Joel Cheesman (50:25.346)

this week's, she may or not like this week's dad joke. As you might know from a couple of weeks ago, we've cleaned them up. We've cleaned up the dad jokes. So, so hopefully you like this one. What do you call a can opener that doesn't work? What do you call a can opener that doesn't work? A can't opener.

JT ODonnell (50:28.187)

Go ahead.

Maureen Clough (50:48.534)

that's, that's, I like that one. Good job, Joel. Growth. We out.

Joel Cheesman (50:53.44)

And with that, ladies, we out.

JT ODonnell (50:56.337)

We out.