This week, Indeed is quietly making some big changes for users, a new report says recruiters don't give a damn about AI (yet) and there's another mobile app hoping to take down LinkedIn (good luck with that Sparky). It's a barrel full of monkeys, enjoy. Plus:
- Automation is going to hit this industry really hard - Recruiters don't care all that much about AI - Recruiters really care about diversity recruiting - Is it profiling or targeting?
Announcer: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts, complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast.
Joel: Hello again boys and girls. Welcome to another episode of Chad and Cheese, HR's most dangerous podcast. I'm Joel Cheesman.
Chad: And I'm Chad Sowash.
Joel: This week Indeed is quietly making some big changes for users. A new report says recruiters don't give a damn about AI, yet. And there's another mobile app hoping to take down LinkedIn.
Joel: Good luck with that one there Sparky. It's a barrel full of monkeys. Stay-
Joel: ... and we don't have the ads loaded up Chad.
Chad: Where's the Sovren man? So how much do we love Sovren?
Joel: I'll go see if I can find the ad here real quick.
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Chad: Yeah, glad you could find that. That was awesome. I could hear you scrounging around. "Where the hell did I put that?"
Joel: Well we did sound check. Anyway. I love editing. All right, let's get to some shout-outs real quick.
Chad: Yeah, well the shout-outs are kind of light this week. Little peaks and valleys. We had a shit-ton last week, and this ... Not as many, but we still have shout-outs. Jonathan Duarte, our buddy, said he's already broken his #chadcheese record from 2017. He's already-
Chad: He's tweeted us, yeah, more this year than he has last year, which means I think he just started to use the Twitter. I'm not sure. Yeah so.
Joel: You know we should be getting some news from him about Gobe pretty soon, his little chat bot.
Chad: Yeah, I hope so.
Joel: Duarte if you're listening man, hit us up with some Gobe scoop.
Chad: Gobe. Big Ed from Philly sent us some stuff. Unfortunately Ed, we're gonna be hitting some pretty big topics this week. Keep sending us stuff though. Everybody out there, if you've got something that you think is a topic that you would like for us to read, we'll check it out, especially if it's a slower news week. Unfortunately, this is not one of those weeks.
Joel: It is interesting that we don't get more sort of PR love of people who want to give us stories or exclusives or hey, we want to get so-and-so on the show. I haven't got one of those. Have you?
Chad: I think they're afraid in some cases because we get them on the show, and they're really not sure what the hell. That's exactly right. That being said, Jimmy Stroud who has been on the show, he actually filled in for you while you were on vacation. He gave us some hashtag love. We should probably get Jimmy on the show sometime.
Joel: Jimmy, sourcing god. Jimmy Stroud.
Chad: I love me this Jimmy Stroud. Last but not least, TAtech AI in Scottsdale, Arizona, February 12 and 13.
Chad: Why the hell wouldn't you want to get out of this crazy weather? Unless you're already in Scottsdale, then it should be easy for you. Go to TAtechAI.io. Man, some of these website addresses.
Joel: I can't keep up.
Chad: TAtechAI.io, yeah no shit.
Joel: Without Google, I'd find no sites.
Chad: Now the beautiful thing about this is Chad and Cheese has a discount code.
Chad: Yeah, yep, yep. So if you want to go to this AI conference, who in the hell doesn't want to go to an AI conference? Here's the discount code. It is TATECHTEN and spell out ten, T-E-N, the number 18. So TATECHTEN18.
Chad: And last but not least for the TAtech love, join the Chad and Cheese Podcast in Dublin, Ireland March 13 and 14 for TAtech Europe. You got to ... Here's another site. Get ready. TAtechEurope.io. That's TatechEurope.io. Check out the agenda and guess who's gonna be speaking Joel.
Joel: What's the leprechaun from the cereal box? Does he have a name? I probably just offended a whole country, but anyway.
Chad: I think you did. I think you did. Well Google's going to be there. Yeah, one of the guys who lead up all the Google recruiting products. Bogomil's gonna be up and it'll be good to see Google at TAtech in Europe.
Joel: Oh Bogomil's gonna be there, huh?
Chad: Love it. Love it.
Joel: You know he was my number one person for the year in 2017 as far as impact to recruiting on the vendor side.
Chad: And you won't return his calls.
Joel: Well he just now connected with me on LinkedIn, so come on man. It's a two-way street.
Chad: He might have to rethink that.
Joel: These Google people man, they're on a different level than us.
Chad: No they're not. That's bullshit. So our last shout-out actually rolls into our first story. It's a big shout-out to Recruitics. Joel did you hear anything happening with Indeed here lately?
Joel: You know I like to think that with my time on the podcast and my writing on ERE, that I'm pretty in the know for what's going on, but this one was a surprise.
Chad: Yeah, so Recruitics because they look out for their customers, and you gotta love that about a vendor. You partner with somebody, or you choose them because you think they're gonna watch your back. Right? Well Recruitics actually sent an email out to their clients about a change, a major change that Indeed has put in place, which is focused on their search engine results.
Joel: Quit teasing me. What is it?
Chad: Yeah, so okay. So you do a search on Indeed, and what you were used to like any other search engine, is that when you get your results, you click on the result and then where do you go Joel?
Joel: You go to the site that's in the search results page.
Chad: That's right. You go to the site. So if I go to Google, and I do a search. I click on the link. I know that it's going to take me to another site because it's a search engine. Well Indeed is supposedly a search engine. But guess what, they're actually changing into a job board because they've added a second pane that pops up the job description right beside the search results. Now this to me, is a huge regression.
Joel: So for our viewers ... Not viewers. For our listeners who can't view the page, they're working out, they're in their car, on the train, whatever. So imagine you're seeing results on Indeed. You click the title of a result.
Joel: Typically or historically, you would then go to say CareerBuilder or a company job page. Today if you click the subject line or the title of the job posting, a separate window pane, if you will, opens up within Indeed, and you see the entire job.
Joel: Then if you want to apply, you click "apply to job" and then that takes you to your corporate page or your job site or whatever. So why they did this, we have some theories. Mostly conspiracy theories. What are some of your thoughts on why they would do this Chad?
Chad: Well I think it's fairly simple. They want to keep job seekers more captive on their site. And also, when you go through the process, it is so much quicker to click on more links, which means if they're paid links, they're getting more money out of this.
Chad: So again, they're losing traffic because Google has taken away a good amount of their organic. They raised their rates 35 plus percent. And now they're making a change to be able to keep candidates more captive on their site. To me, it seems just like another major fuck-up in a string of Indeed fuck-ups lately.
Joel: So you feel a little bit like this.
Joel: As a user, I will say this. It is much faster. Without having to click on a link and go to another page, takes out a lot of time. From that aspect, I understand it. However, it does violate pretty much the rules of a search engine.
Joel: So as an SEO, less so than they used to be, there are actually rules, FTC-type stuff that says if you go over a certain number of characters or words, one of the two in terms of what you're presenting to a user that is someone else's content, then you're essentially stealing it.
Joel: That's why when you go to Google, the summary is only a certain number of characters or words long. Google could do this. Right? You could click on a results on Google. It could bring up everything that's on that page. You could take out the advertisements that are on that page. You could take out the tracking. All the things that you benefit from Google would be gone. Right?
Joel: So that's sort of theft in terms of the eyes of the federal government, as far as I understand unless the rules have changed in the last 10 years. But I doubt they have.
Joel: So, you could make a case that what Indeed is doing is essentially stealing these job postings. Now job postings aren't literary works or a thing that maybe fall under that rule. And I'm not sure anyone's going to sue Indeed because they're taking a job posting and putting it on their site and not letting people go to the page directly.
Joel: But you could make a case that this is sort of not the most legal thing to do from that perspective, although I'm not a lawyer. I do know also that when Indeed first launched its mobile application some 10 years ago, they did this. Instead of taking someone to CareerBuilder or Monster at the time, they would take the entire job description. Then if you wanted to apply, they would send you over to the page of the job on a job board or whatever.
Joel: Now that made a little more sense 10 years ago on mobile because a lot of mobile sites sucked. They were super slow. It was a really bad user experience.
Chad: Or they weren't mobile at all. I mean the corporate career site might not have been mobile at all.
Joel: Totally. Totally. I mean how many ATSes weren't mobile back in 2008.
Chad: God, yeah.
Joel: Like a lot.
Chad: A lot. A lot.
Joel: A lot of them. That's why companies like Jibe and others could make a living for a while because they just did mobile versions of these sites til the ATSes woke up and did that.
Joel: So anyway, there is some precedent for this. There was more interest in job boards to maybe say hey, this is bullshit because we're serving ad impressions. We're tracking stuff, and if they're not even coming to our site, the job is getting viewed but as far as our customers know, it's not getting viewed because they're not coming to our site, and we can't track that.
Chad: The whole experience, right? From the standpoint of an employer paying you to actually pull their content onto your site is so that that candidate can actually reach the experience on your site and learn more about the company or just click out and go back to the search engine. But that's how a search engine works.
Chad: This is how a job board works. They have moved from a search engine model to a job board model. And guess what, this is what really sucks, those clicks that used to go ... Especially for sponsors who are paying, that used to go to the actual corporate site, that led that candidate to the corporate site and that you paid for, now when you click on that link and it opens up a new pane, you get charged. They don't even go to your site, but you're still getting charged.
Joel: You're gonna have clicks that you're paying for that you won't even see as traffic.
Chad: No. No.
Joel: So people will see it. None of your banner ads are gonna be served, none of your tracking code, none of your retargeting stuff. This is a bitter pill to swallow. Now Indeed has done a good job of sort of getting rid of job board content, which frankly are the people who would really scream about this.
Chad: Oh yeah.
Joel: If they're just going to corporate sites, how many companies give a damn about banner ads because they're not on the site. How many care about retargeting because they aren't doing that. Or care about analytics probably as a whole? If they get applicants, then that's what they probably care about.
Joel: Again, these applicants are probably coming from Indeed now moreso than they were before because before ... Let me think about this. Before I would go to a job board, and then I would potentially post my resume there, which is good for the job board. I would apply from there, which was good for the job board because the ATS would say, hey, this came from this site.
Joel: If I'm bypassing a lot of that ... Yeah, I don't know. I have to think about that one. Maybe it doesn't matter.
Chad: Okay, so when Indeed launched, it was a pure search engine, didn't have a resume database, didn't have any of that shit. Right? Then it started to pull people in to get profiles and resumes. And I mean they are going backwards. They are regressing, and it all comes down to as we talked about, and we will continue to talk about. This is a greed move.
Chad: There's no reason for a company to pay for a click if they're not gonna get an opportunity to have the candidate go through the experience on their website. If I'm paying for it, and my experience sucks, guess what? That's my money. Okay? It's not yours Indeed, and if that's how you want to play ball, guess what. You don't get my money anymore.
Chad: There are many other organizations that are out there that I can utilize who are actually playing with Google and starting to get your old search engine traffic and guess what. I can make it happen. And that's what's going to happen if they don't start to change their way.
Joel: This is non-job example, but so there was a period when Google was taking Yelp reviews on restaurants and local businesses and basically doing this. Where you wouldn't even have to go to Yelp. They were pulling all the data, the stars and everything. So Yelp, rightly so, got pissed, took them to court and said, "You can't do this anymore. You can't do this." Right?
Joel: But Google does not do that anymore. Now Yelp has paid the price in search results and other stuff, although Google probably won't say that it's affected them at all. So there is some precedent that search engines do this. Now whether or not anyone is gonna care, I don't know. Yelp has a lot to care about because that's their business.
Joel: A company in whatever, doesn't care as much because it's job posting. They're not making their money on that. So we'll see how this plays out, but yeah, I agree it's a greed move. It's a move to keep people on Indeed and off all the other sites. And it will probably work, and people probably won't care.
Chad: Yeah, well that's what they're banking on. They're banking on TA keeping their head down and not paying attention. That's what they're banking on. But thanks to the good people at Recruitics for actually letting us know what was happening.
Chad: Obviously most of what was said was my opinion, not in their email. They just gave me a structure to be able to go by and actually gave us some intel that we didn't have. And obviously you didn't see anything, announcement public-wise. Or at least I haven't seen a public announcement on this yet.
Joel: And there won't be. Anyway, if you're listening, go to Indeed when you get a chance. Go do a search. Click on some links, and you'll see what we're talking about.
Joel: Well Chad, employment branding is more important than ever, as you know.
Chad: Well yeah, and if candidates could actually go to your career site, it would be even more important. Right?
Joel: True, that's true. We all know Glassdoor. Glassdoor had a news item last week that says, "Pay is the number one reason why people leave jobs."
Joel: And some of these recruiting numbers that we've been throwing out in terms of why people join companies in the first place have a lot to do with their reviews.
Joel: People are going to Google, like we just spoke about and searching working at, 'fill in company name', seeing what reviews are out there. And they're deciding on those reviews whether or not they should apply to a company. Many of these people are going through the interview process, and then finding out that the reviews are bad, and they back out of taking a job.
Chad: Oh yeah.
Joel: Which by the way, costs money and time for a company. So monitoring your reviews is more important than ever. That's why I created Ratedly. Ratedly monitors about 15 review sites, Glassdoor, Indeed, the ones you know as well as ones you don't know. We mention one new one last week, WomenHack, which is a female-centric site.
Joel: Anyway, monitoring these sites is very important and getting more important. Ratedly is out there to help you do that.
Chad: Yes. And did you take that stupid dollar promotion away yet?
Joel: I haven't. The code still works for a limited time maybe. If you're listening, it could be down by now. But if you use coupon code CHEDDAR, C-H-E-D-D-A-R, you can try Ratedly for a dollar.
Joel: Now I will say, little inside information here, is I will be raising prices soon because we're going to be adding analytics around the service. So you have about a week from this recording to get in on the current pricing of just $147 per month. After this next week, which I guess will be the twenty-sixth or seventh of January, we'll be raising prices, and you won't get that special rate.
Joel: So if you're interested in Ratedly, thinking about it, this is probably the best time, if you want to save a buck.
Chad: And it's only $150 a month standard right now, which is way too cheap. You definitely need to raise your prices. That's my two cents.
Joel: Fair enough. Well if you want to find out more about Ratedly, just visit www.ratedly.com. Again, that coupon code is CHEDDAR. Maybe not active for long, so use it today and sign up in the next week or so to make sure that you get on that lower pricing before we raise them.
Chad: Why do you use the W-W-W? I mean do we still have to actually emphasize that we're going to the World Wide Web?
Joel: I felt like going back to old school. I brought up 2008. I figured, W-W-W. Remember there were actually ads that were like, "Please go to H-T-T-P, colon ..."
Chad: Yeah. Oh dude. Those days were painful. Those days were very painful.
Joel: All right man, we wasted a lot of time on Indeed, but there's a lot of other news to talk about.
Chad: Let's hit it.
Joel: Automation, which we have to talk about every week. In this news item, construction workers are looking to be impacted by automation. A new story came out. Increasing automation in the construction industry could displace or replace as much as 49% of the America's blue collar construction workforce, which is about 2.7 million and eliminate nearly 500,000 non-construction jobs by 2057, which I assume are jobs that support construction companies like accounting, etc.
Joel: This is a study by the Midwest Economy Policy Institute, which I've never heard of. But I'm sure people that are doing this sort of work know that organization. And also the Project for Middle Class Renewal from the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. So it seems fairly legitimate.
Joel: Now my take on this is we've always thought about automation either from a sort of technology side or digital side, or a machine side. Right? Like a car drives itself, or a plane drives itself. But to actually think about construction workers being automated, I guess is something you don't normally think about. But I guess machines can just automatically build roads or bridges or fix buildings.
Chad: Build walls.
Joel: Yeah like-
Chad: Yeah, I saw a bricklayer, a machine bricklayer. It actually did the job like five times faster than a three-man crew. And for performance and product, everything was pretty much in line with standards. So yeah, that just blew my mind, thinking a bricklayer. All the way down to a bricklayer.
Joel: I mean I've seen these huge Star Wars looking machines that build roads without people or build a bridge without people. That's some crazy sci-fi stuff. But yeah, you think about it, that's where the world's going. And the fact that 2.7 million or nearly half of those workers are gonna be displaced is pretty scary.
Chad: How many times have you seen a road being worked on and half the crew just standing around?
Joel: I could look out my window and probably see that right now. Yeah. The orange whatever is very, very prominent here in Indiana for most of the year.
Chad: Oh Jesus.
Joel: But yeah.
Joel: Let me ring the bell because that's just fun. Okay, on a more technological news item this past week, Ripple, not to be confused with the cryptocurrency that's in the news, if you're following crypto stuff.
Joel: By the way, we're having a Nexxt exclusive podcast in February about crypto, block chain, ICOs, all that stuff. Anyway, quick plug for that, but I'm excited to learn more about this.
Joel: Anyway, Ripple is not the block chain cryptocurrency. What Ripple is essentially selling itself as a mobile first LinkedIn. This is not new. Bumble, a dating app, launched BumbleBiz last year. For whatever reason, dating sites think they can just make a leap into professional networking and make it work. But it doesn't usually turn out that way.
Joel: Now these guys are a little big unique in that Match.com and Tinder are actually funding/supporting this initiative. So we'll see what happens.
Chad: Well, yeah. Whenever I hear the world Ripple, I always think of Sanford and Son and the wine that they drank.
Joel: Give me my Ripple.
Chad: But when it comes down to this, I mean the thing that you've gotta remember, how was LinkedIn born, and how did they grow? How did they evolve? They evolved in building a database. It was more of the six degrees from Kevin Bacon kind of thing that was going on, and there was all this technology and research done around the six degrees of separation. And it was all about connecting. That's what it was about. And they were building this database so that everybody could connect.
Chad: Then what did they do? They built products off of that. What we're seeing with most of these wannabes are the other way around, where they're what they think is a really cool product, and then they're trying to get a database of people to start using it, try to draw them in that way.
Chad: I don't see any type of app like this killing LinkedIn. The only way that you can actually take something like this and make it work is if you have a huge database of people that are already employment-centric. Or at least they joined your group for employment. And then start to spin new products around that community.
Joel: The network effect, if you will, must be in place. Now what they're selling this as is as sort of LinkedIn's technology is old. It's brand is crusty, and we're gonna implement some new stuff that's cool. One of the things that they're doing, which frankly, probably borders on creepy is they're gonna be using facial recognition as part of the app where you can just point your camera at someone and facially recognize them. Then connect with them through that facial recognition.
Joel: So I can't wait to go to a conference, assuming this thing takes off, which it probably won't. But having people point cameras at everybody and then connect with them through facial recognition. That's a sort of scary world.
Joel: I did download the app and used it. I will say that it probably has no recruiting value whatsoever at the moment. You can't search people by skillset or interest. You don't even know who's near you yet.
Chad: That's because nobody's in the database. There's nobody in the database, so nobody's near you.
Joel: That's true, but at least start near me, and then like expand. I was getting pictures of people in Jamaica, people in Asia. I don't think these were vacation photos. I think they actually lived in these locations. But yeah, you're right.
Joel: So at some point it may evolve, but to me it's like, we already have Coke. Coke is LinkedIn. It's a huge network. Even young people want to be on LinkedIn because old people that give them jobs are on LinkedIn, and I don't see that changing. I don't see it being hippified by mobile.
Joel: Dating is visual. It's potentially having sex, which most people find really appealing. So there's a benefit to having more apps because the more apps you have, the more chance you have of having what you want. Right? It doesn't work that way with professional networking. There's one site with most of the people. I don't see a startup making an impact here or a dent.
Chad: No. No. So you gotta take ... So LinkedIn or Monster or CareerBuilder or any of these organizations who have a huge database, they need to pull the Netflix pivot. Right? Netflix pivoted on themselves. They recreated the entire industry themselves, and they transitioned into it in a very smart manner. Right?
Chad: This is what Monster should have done a long time ago and CareerBuilder should have done a long time ago. But we're seeing that the pivots need to happen again.
Joel: And who's pivoting? Where are they pivoting?
Chad: That's what I mean. We're not seeing the pivots that need to be done. And we're talking about Indeed and this stupid second pane thing. They shouldn't be doing that. They should be pivoting on something that's going to focus on matching and driving targeted candidates, not trying to soak their clients for more cash. I mean that's not what you should be doing. They should be pivoting and focusing toward the future.
Joel: By the way, let me remind people that LinkedIn actually does have mobile app that's pretty good. So it's like, LinkedIn is the LinkedIn for mobile or something.
Chad: Yeah, it's not bad.
Joel: Anyway, all right. Let's go to generational profiling. Something that you've been hot on as the compliance diversity part of the show.
Chad: Yeah. This is more common sense than it is compliance diversity or any of that other bullshit. You take a look at generational profiling, and Tim Sacket actually, he did a post on it this week. And I agree that we take a look at different segments of talent, and sometimes there is huge bias behind it. So his whole post was more ageism, which is what you talked about last week when we were talking about Facebook.
Chad: But here's what it comes down to. When companies don't do the right thing, it gives government an opportunity to step in and rectify it. Right? And as we focus on diversity in the workplace, this should be an aspect of our diversity mix. I mean we shouldn't just focus on age. We should focus on obviously, ethnicity, gender. It's gotta be a big mix, and we need to be smarter about how we hire.
Chad: Tim had some great statistics with regard to developers in some companies, some of the newer companies where they trended much younger versus the IBMs of the world and so on and so forth. And really, at the end of the day, it comes down to understanding that you have to have a better mix of these individuals coming in and flowing into your organization. That's on the company, or they're gonna get slapped down by the federal government, by the OFCCP, EEOC or what have you.
Chad: This all revolves around Facebook, the Facebook conversation that we had where they took away micro-targeting-
Joel: And micro-targeting, for those that don't know, is what?
Chad: Is being able to target many different segments of a person. So their age, where they live-
Joel: Sex, education.
Chad: Sex, yeah. I mean just anything you can think of, just the little pieces that Facebook has about you, every little piece, they can target. They can help target on that. They took that away from jobs because they felt that it would increase bias, which is total bullshit.
Joel: Now my point of this is if that is the only way you're marketing your job, then you're potentially in a weird illegal situation. But my guess is, if you're doing your due diligence and being compliant. Right?
Joel: So you're putting the job on your site. You're putting on the state, or whatever local government type sites they need to be on. You're putting them on some general job sites where they're showing up everywhere anyway.
Joel: Then you're also saying hey look, we want to target a certain demographic in addition to the general advertising that we're doing for the job. To me that should not be frowned upon or thought of as like illegal or shifty. You're just kind of being a smart marketer, actually.
Chad: We've been doing this for years guys. I mean don't be idiots about this. And I've actually heard ... I listened to a podcast. I'm not gonna say who is saying this. They believe the Facebook stripping out the micro-targeting was a very smart thing from a compliance standpoint. And guys, you're idiots. We've been able to do this for years just going to different websites. Just go to a diversity website or a female website or what have you.
Joel: Put a billboard in a certain part of town, or put an ad on a radio station that has a certain listener demographic. I mean that's called targeting.
Chad: And that's what it is, and when you're trying to ... Here's who you're screwing up guys. You're screwing up the organizations who are smartly trying to develop a more diverse mix. They understand that they have Bobs and friends of Bobs that are working with them right now. Right? And they want more Karens. They want more of a gender mix and an ethnic mix.
Chad: How in the hell are they going to do that if you don't give them the tools to do it. Yes, some organizations can twist it and do stupid shit with it. But guess what, they're gonna get caught.
Joel: So remind me, this sort of came to a head because of an older situation. A person that was older, and they weren't targeted-
Chad: He couldn't see a job on Facebook because he wasn't targeted, so therefore, it wasn't fair. And that's total bullshit.