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Behind The Brand w/ Joe Shaker Jr. -- NEXXT Exclusive

It took over a year to convince Joe Shaker, Jr., president of Shaker Recruitment Marketing to be a guest on The Chad & Cheese Podcast, but he acquiesced. The state of the recruitment ad agency is as interesting as it's ever been. From newspapers to job boards to branding to tech, and even their newest acquisition of The Arland Group. We cover all the bases.


Announcer: This, the Chad and Cheese podcast, brought to you in partnership with TA Tech. TA Tech, the association for talent acquisition solutions. Visit

Chad: Okay Joel, quick question.

Joel: Yup.

Chad: What happens when your phone vibrates or you're texting or it goes off.

Joel: Dude, I pretty much check it immediately. I bet everyone listening is reaching to check their phones right now.

Chad: Yeah, I know. I call it our "Pavlovian dog reflex" of messaging.

Joel: Yeah, that's probably why text messaging has a fricking 97% open rate.

Chad: What?

Joel: Crazy high candidate response rate within the first hour alone.

Chad: Which are all great reasons why the Chad and Cheese podcast love..

Joel: Yeah.

Joel: Love it.

Chad: Yup, that's right. NEXXT, with the double X. Not the triple x.

Joel: Boom chica bow wow. So if you're in town acquisition, you want true engagement and great ROI, that stands for "return on investment" folks. And because this is the Chad and Cheese podcast, you can try your first text to hire campaign for just 25% off. Boom.

Chad: So how do you get this discount you're asking yourself right now.

Joel: Tell them Chad.

Chad: It's very simple. You go to and you click on the NEXXT logo in the sponsor area.

Joel: Easy.

Chad: No long URL to remember.

Joel: Yeah.

Chad: Just go where you know. and NEXXT. With two x's.

Announcer: Hide your kids, lock the doors, you're listening to HR'S most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark. Buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.

Chad: Welcome to another episode of the Chad and Cheese podcast. Today we have an interview with..

Joel: Yeah, that's right.

Chad: Joe Shaker Jr.

Chad: Welcome Joe. President of Shaker Recruitment Marketing and you guys, I mean, Shaker has been around for a hot minute, right? How long have you guys..tell us, give us a little background on Shaker.

Joe: I'd be happy to Chad. We have been around for a little bit. 1951 actually was when our agency started, so we're going on six decades now of recruitment marketing. Started by my grandfather. So very proud of the fact that I am third generation leading the organization. But you know, always helping organizations recruit new talent so I will believe we are one of the longest running recruitment ad agencies out there and there's early stories go back in time to, you know, Bernie Hodes and my grandfather actually having many good times touring the US helping organizations through talent acquisition or back then, recruiting. So yeah, it's been a long family history. A long tenure that we're proud to be part of the Shaker family legacy.

Joel: So third generation. Was this a voluntary job for you? Or was this sort of at gun point that you decided to be in the business?

Joe: 100% voluntary Joel. I mean I am one of 24 in the third gen. Some of the third gen obviously are joined the ranks, and have joined the agency. There's six of us actually in the third generation that are working currently at the business.

Joel: Wow.

Joe: Second gen, which is obviously my father who grew the business and his siblings are also still here. So there's a good amount of our family but we're up over a 100 employees now. So it's not just Shaker employees. With Shaker family as well as our employees, that makes up the whole entire organization.

Chad: So, there's been a lot of ups and downs over the last 60 years for goodness sakes. How in the hell has Shaker been able to hold it together for so long? We've seen so many big names go by the wayside. How have you guys been able to do it?

Joe: You know, I will say it's our founding principle that my grandfather, when he created the business, it's customer service. I know it's easy to say that but I do believe that's really how this agency was founded around his motto and my father's motto, "make a friend, make a deal". And in doing so, we do what I think it's two for. We've built strong relationships with our clients. Many of which we've had decades with. Some organizations have been with us 20, 30 years.

Joe: But we also hold those relationships I believe very strong with the media. Because that is really, at the end of the day, where the bridge between the media and our clients. And having those strong relationships both with our media friends and partners as well as their clients is what has allowed us, I believe, to not only, you know, continue to grow but stay relevant in the industry.

Joel: Historically, is you can go back to your grandfather if they were all in a room, was 2008 the hardest time? Was it 2000? I mean, what period for agencies was indeed the toughest?

Joe: Sure, I mean Joel, you hit it. I think it was your last podcast. I mean, when you blast reception right, you had a couple of things I think that kind of hit the industry, it was obviously a recession which we all know our industry is tied to. Jobs are going to go up, jobs are going to go down. And our business is going to go along with it. But I believe from an agency perspective right, you also had this change in business, right? Going from print and obviously going to online. Also changed our business at the same time at which many organizations stopped recruiting.

Joe: And so you had to figure out both, right? How do you stay relevant in the new era of talent acquisition and recruitment marketing as well as manage to do that in a time when not many employers were obviously hiring. And so that was probably, I would say, the most difficult but it was also, you know, in all fairness, probably really the first one I've had to lead through. And my father, who's done this longer than I have obviously, has led me through how he's done it in the past. And it's really staying true to the core and building those relationships and keeping our business in tact.

Joe: Because we all know it's going to come around, no venture organizations, like working out today are out there aggressivley recruiting and right now I believe, out of the recession, this is when the hardest times. I mean, it's so competitive out there. And I use the lines of one of my clients at Mcdonald's, David Fairhurst says "It's not a war for talent, it's like a workforce cliff and how difficult it's getting". So I think this is either a trying of a time to help organizations sustain, you know, effectively recruit the talent acquisition out there.

Chad: So other than the workforce cliff, which is, I mean that's big enough as it is. What has been the biggest change in the last five years? Has it been technology? Has it been the relationships? I mean, what's really been the driving force of not just Shaker but you've seen the industry overall.

Joe: Mm-hmm (affirmative). You know it's funny Chad, because a lot has changed, right?

Chad: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe: A lot hasn't in terms of, I believe, recruiting when you look back in confusion that exists out there. The difficulty in finding right talent, right, is what is, what's making it difficult right now.

Chad: Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Joe: And so if you go in time, you know, it might have seemed easier, right? Because ultimately, there was just print. But even when it was just print, and Joel no offense, I'll have to disagree kind of with the statement on the last podcast. That wasn't easy, even when we were running newspaper across the US. You had to research, you had to find those newspapers. Both the nationals as well as the locals. What's the best data to run? What's the right circulation? The trade journals. You know, what's the creative in the ad? It was a difficult job and it was a time consuming job.

Joe: And much like it is now, is it the aggregators? Is it the job boards? In some cases, it's still running ads in local newspapers. It's still a difficult task to put together the right media mix? But I believe the biggest thing to answer the question "What has changed the most?". Is around, you know, it's a buzz word but it's one of the most important parts, "Employment branding". Historically, we used to just create pretty ads. It was aspirational. Wasn't tied to anything. That was in the 70's and the 80's. Now, we all realize the importance of messaging. You can't do false advertising because all it's going to do is lead applicants and they're going to balance and you're not going to retain any of them.

Joe: And that's what led to the explosion of employment branding. You get to that employment value proposition. And that is also, obviously, and opportunity that opened the doors for many agencies because it's obviously a service that we all provide. And I believe it's one of the most important things that our organizations have to do. As you can put together the right media mix, but if we're saying the wrong thing, what's having the right media plan going to do?

Joe: Ultimately, they're just all going to bounce and the key to this whole thing is retention.

Joel: I want to talk about talent for a second. You just made an acquisition, which we've talked about on the show..

Joe: Sure, yeah.

Joel: .. and for our listeners who haven't heard that episode, I encourage you to do so. You've gone from about a 100 to a 110ish, according to the news that I've written and read, I assume a lot of that was the hires that you've made from the Arland group. So my question is, saying that it was difficult to, you know, what publications are we in? What is creative look like? Etc. How has talent changed from the newspaper days til now, or has it at all?

Joe: No, it's definitely, I mean, it's a lot harder of a business in terms of being able having the minds to look at the traditional ways to recruit as well as look at the new emerging media. And I think having that balance right of the historic as well as the emerging is what's important. And it's a hard task. I mean, some of our, obviously for all our account directors and account managers to be able to dance the media planning that goes into that as well as looking at your creative as well as looking at the candidate experience, right?

Joe: And the whole website of the house. And so, having that balance across that is, it's a hard talent to find. And you are correct, I mean one of the things obviously that definitely interests us in the Arland acquisition was the talent obviously, with their leader Deb, who I have the utmost respect for and her whole team, who are talented individuals from account directors, account executives and creative individuals. They'll be joining the ranks of Shaker's, I believe, best in class executive team and full team of employees already. I mean, when I look at my leadership team now, which excites me the most, I have Ellen and Mike Temkin, who have been with me for over 30 years.

Joe: I have the likes of Dan Shaker and my cousin who came to us three years ago. What previous to that had his own creative branding shop. And so bringing his creative mind and genius into our recruiting agency has obviously propelled our creative. And then before the Arland acquisition, we also hired Peter Carr, who's got 20 years business in the industry to our executive team. Coupled with Derek Briggs, who's my COO, who used to be an actuary at Price Waterhouse.

Joe: And it's those minds, right? The mathematical, the creative, the account services as well as obviously to where the industry is going I believe is going to obviously propel Shaker into the next wave.

Chad: So the next wave you see is going to be really attached to the EDP and employment branding. No matter what you're doing..

Joe: Yup.

Chad: ..employment brand has some kind of shape in that formula, I guess you can say.

Joe: 100%. But it's just, I mean, it's that with the media, with the experience.

Chad: When you talk about media and employment brand and emerging media, what is the emerging media right now that you're starting to attach employment brand to?

Joe: So, I mean, the media is itself, I mean, obviously one of the buzz words in brand in terms as being thrown out there right as programmatic job distribution, right? But how does that fit in, how does that also take into consideration, I do believe some of the ways where you have to traditionally role up your sleeves and recruit. So it's not just being so, putting all your budget into programmatic or put all your budget for that matter even into sourcing. Diversification is key. I think it's glass doors that it's like media now it cans are touching 16 different sources. So how are you being in 16 different sources, especially right now where organizations are still working with limited budgets that they might have had.

Joe: ... especially right now, when organizations are still working with limited budgets, that they might've had from historical years, or trying to fight for more budget. How do we make that money go further across more sources? That's what I mean by using the past, as well as looking at some of the emerging, in order to be effective. Also, we look at candidates, they're everywhere. You have to be everywhere, yet, we're still working with some pretty tight budgets right now.

Joe: I would say it's not just the media. I mean, it's also ... Right? It's that message and then it goes into that, the whole candidate experience side of the house. It's those areas that are important.

Chad: And trying not to dilute the overall spend, right? You're trying to get a good base, a strong base, but not trying to dilute at the same time.

Joe: 100%, I mean, a lot of times clients will say, "Well, let's take all our money, and put it into, put out branding, because we have to invest in it." Well, if we spend all that money in the employment brand, then there's nothing left over to go find those candidates, or address the experience, what's the point? So it's leveraging spreading them across those three bucket as well as of course putting diversification within each of those. Because developing employment brand, you're developing one, no in many cases, right? It's one EVP, but it's been segmented out across a variety of different industries. So, how was it like to work in IT versus how it's like to work in marketing. We have to take that EVP, and segment it down so it's even, you know, diversifying the spend within the appropriate buckets there as well.

Joel: You mentioned a few new technologies you said programmatic, and obviously the SHRM confrence just sort of finished up last month, and I know that you guys, there in your own backyard in Chicago, were attendees in the vendor space. I know that you personally got to a lot of conferences, as well as have exhibited in a lot of them over the years. How would you sort of explain this year's SHRM confrence, particularly the exhibit hall, what kind of trends are you seeing, or what sort of things do you expect to become hotter in the coming months and years?

Joe: Sure, I think it was exciting, I know you guy, I thought you were there as well. Looking at the SHRM show, even just last week, we're at the NCHRS Show up in Scottsdale, I mean the exhibit halls are packed. Every show that we go to there's more, and more and most important I think what's most exciting to, and there's more, and more new people coming to the space, right.

Joe: I think you guys do a fabulous job, obviously on the start ups, as well as covering the investment in our space. I've never seen it in the years, I'm not going to say how long I've been doing this, because I know I'll age myself, but I've never seen more investment being thrown in the talent acquisition space specific on the technology side more in recent times, talking with my father he would agree.

Joe: That's exciting especially for organization such as ourselves, as the advisors to our clients, to be able to look at those solutions, and I believe finally attentions being put on to the importance of talent acquisition, and you know we're not just standing by, and saying, "Well, it's the ATS's problem, there's nothing we can do about it." People are finding, smart people are coming in, and solving those business issues that are making it easier to effectively recruit. So I think it's been the most exciting times in our industry.

Chad: It's exciting, but it's also confusing as hell, right? Because we have so many start ups that are out there. Then we have all these companies, these vendors, who are trying to reinvent themselves. I mean, what is your team doing? Because there's so much that's happening out there. Joel and I try to cover as much as we possibly can, but how can you get into this, really all of this excitement, and also play off the confusing piece. Most talent acquisition professionals have no clue what programmatic means, and that's just programmatic, not talking about everything else that's happening. So, how are you guys actually going after that business with this huge explosion of not just dollars, but start ups.

Joe: Sure. Well, I mean the biggest thing is, I'll say and I think from an agencies, it's being a trusted advisor, right? Being that clients partner, and so as we approach it from an unbiased perspective, and the media we're doing the same thing from a technology perspective, and making sure that obviously it's our, at the end of the day it's what our clients need. It's in their best interest, and then that's when we bring in those solutions. In some cases it might be provider A, in other cases it might be Provider B. I think it's important that everyone stays in those lanes. I think as we move through this, you can call it complicated, confusing industry, I think where a lot of companies might stray one way or the other, you know, it's important that we all stay in our lanes.

Joe: Medias can't be an ad agency, I don't believe an ad agency can be a media, or be a technology provider. So, that's kind of I believe we're navigating through it, and I think that's where our clients can see the most value, is that they realize that we're going in their best interest.

Chad: So, and this goes to one of the questions I was going to ask, with regard to staying in your lane. There are so many vendors that out there, who want to try to go direct, and go away from the agency, but also you're starting, I mean we've seen agencies do the exact same thing. Where instead of trying to be that unbiased, really third party, who's trying to help a company, they develop there own technology, and it's like, "Hey you don't have to go any where else, come straight to us."

Chad: So, do you believe that with this new explosion of start ups, that a lot of these different agencies will be able to say that there is no way that they can keep up with the technology, number one, and number two, what would you say to all those vendors that are out there. I'm going to give you a platform here. What would you say to all those vendors that are out there that feel like they can just go direct, and try to go around the agency?

Joe: Sure, so obviously I can only speak to my agency right, and to Shaker, you know when others do, and I think it's made sense, and you know, that's their decisions. I can just tell you how we're approaching it. I think when you look at it, there's enough business honestly for everybody. But really it is about partnerships, like I said at the beginning. That's how Shaker, how its always been. I mean I remember as a youngster going to, and Joel you'll appreciate this, old Chicago Bulls Championships when they won six of them.

Joe: You know I had to get the sports angle in. Lucky for Ron, I do think LeBron has one six, but Jordan has. But anyway, I mean, I would go to those championship games with my father, with the likes of the Sun Times, and the Tribune. These were some of my father's best friends, still are to this day. Those partnerships with the media, ultimately, when you get that partnership with that agency, as well as the media, wins the client. Then obviously the agency, and of course the media partners too.

Joe: So, it's been proven, we got 60 years of success on when that partnerships, how they can be effective, and how they can be beneficial for all parties. I think the media needs to understand, and the partners need to understand out there, is that's why obviously organizations go to ad agencies like myself, and to many of my peers, is they're looking for the advice, they look those recommendations. That's what we provide them. So, when you do this in cooperation, they're going to benefit. Where you get competitive, that's where obviously I believe issues come up and no one wins. The agencies don't win, the media doesn't win. Most importantly our clients don't win.

Joel: Joe, what products, and services are employers asking about the most? Also

which products, and services do you see sort of fading currently?

Joe: Yeah, I would say probably the biggest product running that many organizations are out there actively looking for, and seeking is around programmatic job distribution, you know obviously, the importance of it I believe in. We're strong opponents of it. I believe that this is something that obviously isn't going to stop. It's going to continue to expand in this industry, just like where how job postings should go. They went from newspapers via Ad send, to job postings via the job distributors like eQuest and Broadbean and Job Target, and obviously now job postings being done through programmatic job distribution, but really giving clients the capabilities now to base there media buying off of metrics in real time, being flexible not locking in to set contracts amount hoping that the right amount of postings was purchased at the start of the year, and putting rules in and sponsoring jobs that need to be sponsored, and unsponsoring jobs that don't need it. I mean that's something that I believe that isn't going to stop, it's going to continue to evolve. It's done it in the traditional marketing world, and so it just makes sense obviously that it transfers over into the recruitment marketing arena as well.

Joe: You're right we didn't talk about much today around AI. I do believe obviously that's another area that's going to of course continue to evolve. The way artificial intelligence is being utilized from a sourcing perspective and helping people proactively got out there and find those right candidates. To I believe AI provides a great resource in helping find that needle in a hay stack. In addition the likes of a Hiring Solveds and Entelos, accessing individuals that didn't even put their resumes into a data base, right. It's finding that passive impulsive candidate who's going to be even easier utilizing those technologies.

Joe: Then you got the candidate experience side is so hard for organizations to say, "Well we can't talk to every single candidate that comes to a career site." They don't have the teams in place to be able to address every single one of them, so how so we respond to candidates in a quick manner and give them updates, and I believe the chat bots like Olivia or Paradox or are addressing some of those business challenges, and I believe are going to continue to evolving, and make it even more easier for organizations to improve their candidate experience using technology.

Joe: On the same hand, I don't see computers taking over the whole talent acquisition process. This is a people business, organizations are going to need to sell people on why they should come work for their organization. Individuals aren't going to make life changing decisions without feeling for the organization, and talking to someone in the industry. So I don't believe, you know, or there's some schools of thought where, you know, AI and robots are going to take over the whole talent acquisition space. I think it's a balance between the two.

Chad: Okay, Joe, so you talk about the impact of AI, and chat bots, but what about the 800 pound gorilla in the room. I mean, what impact is Google having on recruiting today, and your prediction of Google's recruiting industry impact in the future? So, how's it hitting us today, and what do you see in the future for Google?

Joe: So, I would definitely would say it's probably one of the most exciting announcements, right, in involvements in our industry, and probably in recent time, and if not, if you go over the history of Shaker, I mean as someone, like at Google I believe taking notice right of the talent acquisition recruitment marketing.

Chad: It's legit.

Joe: It is legit. Honestly, there's no denying their involvement, as we all know it's not just one area, right. They're looking into three, whether it be ATS, very entry level obvious, with there search API, and obviously in the connection between the job postings, and the candidates, and then of course Google for jobs, obviously right there in driving traffic to the job boards, as well as directing to company career sites. So, they're covering it in three areas, and I already gone right, internationally as they launched in obviously

Chad: The UK, yeah.

Joe: Yeah, just this week, so, they're not joking around like they never do. I believe you know, the excitement I see outside of Google for jobs, I think is obviously a great distribution point for job boards, and for clients direct. So, I mean for our clients, it's important, it's essential we make sure whatever technology platform recruitment marketing platform they're on, is distributing their jobs right into Google for jobs. It's driving awareness, I believe, in our industry to search engine marketing. I mean doing search engine marketing is not new to recruitment, but it's got a lot of attention now, because obviously individuals are looking at, "Well, how...

Joe: Marketing. But it's got a lot of attention now, because obviously individuals are looking like- Well, how do I sponsor my jobs? I don't believe, for jobs, you got to be a paid per post mono, they're just gonna say, "you wanna sponsor? Use ad words." So, it's driving, I think, more involvement and awareness around SEM. But the exciting part is, I think, what they're trying to tackle, just like they tackled across the web. Matching candidates to jobs and jobs to candidates. And for so long we were relying, hoping, that the candidates wrote the right key words, and hoping that recruiters wrote the right job descriptions. And now, right, Google is using AI, is making sense of what candidates are typing and obviously what companies are putting postings to do a better job matching. And I believe no one can do it better than of course Google.

Chad: So, here's the big question, how stupid is Indeed for not playing in this game? Because right now what we're seeing, or at least what we think we're seeing with analytics and talking to many of these analytic companies, is that really there's a redistribution of Indeeds' organic traffic going out to everybody else right now. Because Indeed's not playing the game. So, how dumb is Indeed for not playing the Google game?

Joe: I wouldn't call it dumb, Chad. I mean right, contents king and so in theory, right, in all intensive purposes, Indeed still is the largest job board on the web. Now, we all know, even before Google for jobs announced, technically Google was the largest job board right, 87 percent-

Chad: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe: Of all searches start there.

Chad: Right.

Joe: So, but in theory, right, Indeed is the largest. So, if I was Indeed, I don't know if I would just overnight all of a sudden say, "Hey, here's all my content." I think they're trying to figure it out. And obviously you see what Indeed's done, I think it was a smart move, right. The acquisition of Glassdoor-

Chad: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe: By Recruit, not Indeed, right. We all keep saying Indeed, but it was really Recruit.

Chad: Right.

Joe: Well it's driving, it's gonna eventually drive more traffic, but in theory, they're getting into the branding [space 00:25:54]. And so it's not just becoming a job board and being the largest job board. I think they're obviously trying to become that largest recruitment platform. As job listing, databases, and it's branding. So, I believe there's some smart people there.

Chad: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe: We all know that. They're evolving and moving with the times, and I think, until they figure it out, just quickly saying, "Here's all our content," I think obviously would've been a mistake on Indeed. So I agree with their move.

Chad: But it's not their content, though. Most of that is not their content. And Google is going to be getting that content anyway, so the piece that Indeed's going to have that's only their stuff, whatever that might be, is of small percentage of what Google's already gonna have in the first place.

Joe: True. But, in terms of the ecosystem, right, would you just.. as long as, let's put it this way. Is Indeed's traffic the same as it was last year? No. Right. Their traffic obviously is decreasing. But that's across all job boards, and you can say that for any job board, because there's not as many job seekers there. So as long as they're still producing the quality traffic, and I think that's growing their reach. I mean, just sending their jobs to Google for jobs, in reality, I mean look at when we look at Google for jobs now, they're moving job boards out of it anyway.

Chad: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Joe: Right, they went direct to companies.

Joel: So Joe, we've talked a lot about the future of the vendor space, and what kind of products and services will be in the future, and what they'll look like. I'm curious about when a little Shaker graduates from Wisconsin in 15 years, and she takes over the family business in 20 years, what kind of business is she gonna be taking over? What's it look like?

Joe: Sure. In 15 years, I hope it's a little bit longer than that, but I enjoy and I appreciate, Joel, the Wisconsin mention and not the Ohio State.

Joel: I don't know exactly how old your daughter is, but you get the-

Joe: I'm more around for seeing the Wisconsin, not the Ohio, so that is correct.

Chad: Go Bucks.

Joe: I am optimistic, obviously, in terms of where the agency is going. And I believe this isn't just for Shaker, it's for all my agency friends out there. It's tough out there, right. This isn't just, as we said earlier, the right media strategy. You need an organization. I think clients out there is just getting harder and harder to find people, and we know that that's not gonna stop anytime soon. Having that right message and applying branding, and having the right strategy, and the right experience is a complicated formula. And there's a lot of parts to it. So, having that trusted advisor and that trusted partner along side of them to help navigate through that, I believe, is what's gonna be essential. And so I think that's why its very optimistic for all agencies out there. It's not just a simple as putting a job on one of the job boards anymore. And so, it also is, it's complicated.

Joe: And so I have to- my goal and my job right obviously, as we move into the future, just like my father and his siblings.. It was easy for me to walk through the forest when someone's already cut down the trees. And it's my job to continue to carve that path so hopefully when that fourth generation does decide to come and join the Shaker family, and join the Shaker company, that they can continue with my grandfathers mission in helping organizations recruit [or change 00:29:06] out.

Joel: Well that's a very heartwarming answer, but I'll ask it more specifically. So, bots, automation, AI, you know, the day of talking to a voice assistant where you say, "Find me a PHP developer in Seattle." And having the machines do it. Does nothing keep you up at night in terms of thinking that technology may take away our feasibility with employers in the future? Or do you rest pretty soundly?

Joe: I think technology is gonna make it efficient, Joel. Right. And we're already seeing that with the Google search API and obviously with the likes of right sourcing solutions out there, and chat bots, right, that we've talked about today. But this is recruiting and choosing the job. It's a life changing decision. And so ultimately there still has to be, I believe, that personal connection, that personal touch. And so no, I'm not in the school that I believe technology and bots and AI is gonna completely replace recruiters and replace agencies, for that matter. It's gonna make us more efficient, it's gonna make us more accountable, it's gonna make us smarter. It's gonna make it easier for us to find that needle in a haystack, that passive impulsive candidate. But I do not believe it's gonna completely replace us. Just because of the decision to quit one company and move to another. Individuals are gonna want to talk to, feel, that organization before making that decision I believe.

Joel: Well what does keep Joe Shaker awake at night?

Joe: My four year old, my two year old, and my soon to be newborn.

Chad: Oh my god. Do you know how that thing works? I mean seriously man.

Joel: Good one Chad. Joe thanks for your time man. I know we've been bugging you for a while to get on the show and we finally became big enough that you could spend time with us.

Chad: We appreciate it.

Joel: We appreciate it man.

Joe: Hey I've enjoyed listening to you all and obviously you have a great partnership and friendship, and so I wish you all the best. And I have to go. Thank you for your time, but I also do applaud that I hope you vote for, obviously, Shaker, for myself, and of course Chad and Joel.

Joe: So, cast your votes out there everybody.

Chad: Go to and hit the vote button and you're gonna see some Shaker stuff in there. So give Joe some love.

Joel: Yeah, and by the way, if you wanna know more about Joe and his agency, where should they go?

Joe: Go to

Joel: Fair enough. Thanks Joe.

Chad: Sweetness.

Joel: Thanks guys.

Chad: We out.

Joel: We out.

Chad: Go Bucks.

Chad: Okay, okay, okay. Before we go, remember when I asked you about the whole reflex and check your text messages thing?

Joel: Yeah you know all about reflexes. And then I brilliantly tied it to text messages. 97 percent open rate, then I elegantly, elegantly, tied it to a better experience for your candidates. Don't laugh Chad, I can be elegant. Can't I?

Chad: Whatever man. I know it's redundant. You already heard about text to hire, but you're still not using Text2Hire from Nexxt.

Joel: What?

Chad: I know man.

Joel: Come on man.

Chad: Since advertising takes repetition to soak in, I just thought I'd remind you again, this was all by Elegant Design, it's all about text to hire, and its all about Nexxt.

Joel: And Elegant Design. So go to chad cheese dot com, click on the Nexxt logo, and get 25, yeah I said 25, percent off your first text to hire campaign.

Chad: Woo.

Joel: Engage better, use text to hire from Nexxt. Two x's.

Chad: Boo-yah. Thanks to our partners at TA tech. The association for talent acquisition solutions. Remember to visit TA tech dot org. This has been the Chad and Cheese podcast. Subscribe on iTunes, google play, or wherever you get your podcasts, so you don't miss a single show. And be sure to check out our sponsors because they make it all possible. For more, visit Chad cheese dot com. Oh yeah. You're welcome.

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