Everyone wants to know! Who was naughty and/or who was nice in 2019?
Special guest Bill Boorman joins The Chad and Cheese on stage to announce their 2019 Naughty and Nice lists on stage during TalentNET LIVE in Dallas.
They cover who was naughty and who was nice in the world of HR, recruiting, tech, and workforce? Gotta listen to find out.
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by:
Chad: Ho, ho, Happy New Year and all that jazz. Welcome to 2019's final Chad and Cheese podcast and lucky for you, it's our naughty and nice show. Recorded live onstage at TalentNet Live in Dallas with special guest Bill Boorman. He'll be the one speaking in drunken pub English. Enjoy. After this, word from Amber Ferrari and Canvas.
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Intro: Hide your kids, lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snarl. Bottle up boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.
Joel: This is the Chad and Cheese. Yes. This is going to be a live broadcast. It's going to be fun. This is more festive than I expected it. If you've ever heard the Chad and Cheese podcast, you know that you're in for a treat. If you've ever heard Bill Boorman, You know that this is going to be crazy and insightful.
Joel: All right, ready to go.
Chad: Oh yeah. Did we push record on this?
Chad: Oh Yeah. I think we pressed record.
Joel: What's up everybody? Who knows of the Chad and Cheese podcast? A few people hopefully. If you don't know, Chad and I, I'm Cheese, that's Chad. This is our special guest and British diplomat, Bill Borman, who is joining us today. If you don't know about the show, we do a weekly Roundup of news, usually about vendors, who's going out of business, who's buying whom,
Chad: Who sucks.
Joel: [crosstalk 00:02:47] We do a shark tank show. We do deep dives into everything from AI to automation, to programmatic advertising,
Chad: And we're not safe for work.
Joel: So everything. So every year, we're only two years old, but we have this tradition of [crosstalk 00:03:01] around this time of year we do a naughty or nice list. We went to Craig and said, hey, we think this would be fun in a live format. Hopefully it will be. So each of us has two naughties and two nicies and we will run through them, starting with Chad.
Chad: I like to thank Batman, my man Batman who actually already dropped the F bomb. So you broke the ceiling.
Joel: You fucker.
Chad: We appreciate that. We are not safe for work podcast. We are not five stars on iTunes because we piss people off. It's kind of a thing, right?
Joel: Unlike the other presentations today, we are not five stars.
Chad: We're not five stars-
Joel: And we are proud of it.
Chad: And just so you know-
Joel: We are not for everybody.
Joel: Cheese.com for more information. Subscribe today.
Chad: Subscribe today. Yes so we're going to jump in straight into the naughty, because that's the kind of podcast we are. First off, the first naughty thing I want to talk about, that for this year was McDonald's voice-activated bait-and-switch bullshit that they pulled. Remember that, right? If you don't know the story, McDonald's is actually voice-initiated. They're using Alexa and Google assistant to be able to start the application process with the job search slash application process, which did, guess what? Took you to a text message that took you to the application process, which was the black hole under a new name. Joel loves it though. Go ahead Joel.
Joel: Okay, let's carry this, carry here. Carries out hobnob. This is a great point. Who, who of you remember the first iPhone? It sucked, right? 2G, the battery lasted for 12 minutes.
Chad: Comparatively, yeah.
Joel: It sucked, right? So in Chad's world, [crosstalk 00:04:44] the iPhone should have been buried and never improved.
Chad: Never said that.
Joel: You remember the first Tesla, right? It went up in flames. It
sucked, right? So in Chad's world, the Tesla should have been scrapped. A driverless cars were running over people. So that'll never be a thing in your world.
Chad: People are running over people.
Joel: That can't be improved. Things that start out here can eventually get to here and be okay. So maybe next year this will make your nicey.
Chad: So if you don't care about your brand experience for your job seekers, they do whatever Joel says, because he does not give a fuck.
Joel: Apple kept hiring people after the release of the first iPhone.
Chad: Because they were the only phone out there, dude. The only smart phone out there. [crosstalk 00:05:25] I think it is not a smart phone.
Joel: We don't have to get into the pros and cons of smart phones. [crosstalk 00:05:31] Yes. Our global guests chime in on this.
Bill: Absolutely right on the nasties for me. Exactly what McDonald's did was, they thought bought a hotel, they spent one million bucks on the lobby and nothing on the rooms, which actually creates an expectation of a great experience and made it worse.
Joel: Do MacDonald's have rooms in Britain? [crosstalk 00:05:51] A little private eatery.
Chad: I was talking about the Tesla, shut up.
Bill: Geez boy, that's what,
Joel: See you're on the Chad side of this. That is shitty and it shouldn't go anywhere else from here.
Bill: I think the principle of if you're going to change, you should change. If you're going to change the experience, you have to change the whole experience, not pieces of experience. Because then you make the expectation that the experience is going to be great-
Joel: And a bigger question-
Bill: And what is shitty is worse.
Joel: Can we expect in the future, Hey Alexa, find me a job in Dallas, to be a thing.
Joel: Okay. Do we all agree on that?
Bill: Oh, yeah.
Joel: We can all agree that this is just the first step-
Chad: they need to get that the first step should have been a test market much like they do with everything else in their industry. They choose a test market, they see if it sucks and if it does, they fix it. They will dish it out globally.
Bill: They don't play their employees.
Joel: The iPhone wasn't released in Cupertino for a month to work out.
Chad: Yeah, they did. They had test pockets.
Joel: All right, Bill.
Bill: So my naughty is the breakdown of trust in society for content. When I spoke here 10 years ago as the closing keynote, which Craig may have mentioned. I've changed a little bit, so you might not recognize me, but the key thing was, I remember the Edelman index said that we trusted social media at that time, eight times more than we trusted content from what was previously trusted sources. Fake news. When we look at that now, let's almost, that's in reverse like we do, it's very hard. The breakdown in trust in content, basically means it's very hard to produce content which is trusted. It's at the point where stories are not important. It's Tellus, which-
Bill: I was a bit naughty. So, and I think that, we better explain that for radio,
Chad: that was fine. That was cardio.
Joel: His antlers fell off. We're in costume.
Bill: For me, naughty is the breakdown in trust that we've had in society with content, which by the way, we thoroughly deserve.
Joel: And then do we trust employers? Certainly not, right.
Bill: They are full of shit. So you know, the employer branding department is generally the department of propaganda, you know?
Joel: That's why review sites exist, because people trust-
Bill: Yeah. But who, who leaves a review on a review site? Only an extremist. The only people who review-
Joel: Seven to one, I think.
Bill: But the other people who review anything, either love it so much that their opinion is invalid or hate it so much that their opinion is invalid. The people we really want to hear-
Joel: Silent majority.
Bill: People in the middle, who say it's okay, that's who we want to connect with and they're silent because we don't create a place for them to have a voice. That's why they don't [crosstalk 00:08:27]
Joel: Down to some cerebral shifts.
Chad: That's why we have him here.
Joel: We keep it to Alexa and McDonald's [crosstalk 00:08:33]
Joel: So my first naughty is I'm going to go sort of corporate and this is an alleged story. I don't want to call guilt out because no one's been convicted. No one's going to jail. But, so there's a company called Crowded. Did everyone did interviews with Crowded Customers?
Joel: Okay. So Crowded for those who don't know, their mission in life was to revive the dead of your ATS. Right? So if you had someone apply five years ago, Crowded's job was to email these folks, get them re-engaged, new jobs that were available. Maybe what they applied for was a miracle today.
Chad: Nurture them.
Joel: Yeah, nurture them. It was a good idea.
Joel: Good idea. We interviewed Howie Schwartz, the CEO in the first year that they got started. So anyway, this past year, how he was allegedly embezzling money from the company, they raised about $3 million. The whisper number I heard was in the hundreds of thousands that were embezzled. How he's gone from the company, all the executives are gone and they have since been acquired by another company. Never to be heard from again. So it's kind of sad, naughty to have a company that had some promise, some bad people up at the top. They make my naughty list for the alleged embezzlement [crosstalk 00:09:58].
Bill: Nice idea for delivery.
Joel: For executives executing, yes.
Chad: Excellent. So we're going to go to nice now. So my first nice is around acquisitions that have been happening all over the place this year and to name names, TMP by themselves had four acquisitions, Symphony talent obviously just bought Smashfly programmatic, went on that fricking fire sale this year. I mean we had first, out of the gate, Appcast was bought by Stepstone, ClickIQ, Indeed. Indeed never makes my nice list by the way. Just so everybody knows. Perengo
Joel: Did you make it to anyone's naughty list ? Is Indeed on anyone's naughty list?
Bill: No. I love ClickIQ, by the way. So.
Chad: You would [crosstalk 00:10:42].
Bill: Would be nice to reach them.
Joel: Full disclosure he owns half the company,
Chad: You would, and then Recruitics, interestingly enough, a tech company, turns around and buys an ad agency. I mean, we're seeing a lot of everything that's going on. And then the applicant tracking system side of the house PageUp at PageUpPeople.com, they just bought Clinch.io or Clinchtalent.com, iCIMS bought Jibe and then we had this huge fricking K-1 roll-up with Jobvite, $200 million given the job bites, so that they can go on a shopping spree and they bought Telemetry, roll point and our favorite, Canvas. Yeah. So Bill knows a little bit about the K-One roll-up, because.
Bill: I was in that deal.
Chad: He was under the sheets,
Bill: Under the sheets of that deal. Oh I think what that really brought to us is the creation of how can we bring technology together. I think it's a kind of halfway between naughty and nice as examine make it work. I think the principle in the idea, very passionate about it, that we can get everything from CRM to programmatic, to chat bot, to communication in a-
Bill: Platform for one single code.
Joel: The acquisitions spanned many different technologies-
Bill: Many different technologies. But interestingly all with the exception of probably job like all with point solutions. So I think what they're showing us is, what we actually want, as what we would call core function or core function within our CRM or within our ATS or within a platform. So the rollup is really towards core platform. The challenge is going to be in the execution.
Joel: Does the code work together? Is it neat?
Bill: For me, the nice bit is that the naughty bit is, it's kind of half and half on that at the minute, see what happens.
Joel: It's much more about features being added as opposed to customers being added or geographies being added. Whereas the old days where job boards would buy each other to sort of claim, you know, estate claims in certain parts of the country.
Bill: There is a bit of buying customers. There's always a bit of buying customers.
Craig: That was exactly what the rig, well they on the recruiting side, that's exactly what [crosstalk 00:12:50]
Joel: The agency side.
Bill: I think the programmatic, while he's a lot more interesting because of what it's showing us is programmatic is becoming a core feature of whether that's,-
Chad: And I think-
Bill: This is the way in which ads you're going to be well-
Chad: And I think that's the only way that we move the needle though, because HR and TA is not going to move toward the performance space as fast, unless it becomes core.
Bill: And it has to become, course. I think what it vindicates in the acquisition is, this is something that customers want as, and all of us should want as, core features. We shouldn't be buying ads in the old school way [crosstalk 00:13:28] of paying for a banner or where we just shouldn't be doing that, you know? Otherwise we might as well get our app.
Joel: What do you think this is interactive.
Joel: It's commercial time.
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Chad: It's show time.
Chad: So, so nice. Nice, nice, nice.
Bill: So my nice is Chatbots. So I'm disclosure. I do-
Bill: As a lead advisor with Jobpal on product. But one of the things we've learned from Airbus is we're seeing real- I think we're beginning to see real user case is the things that we talked about before and we're beginning to understand what they are. The really interesting thing with the Chatbots is when we give people an option of talking specifically about the Airbus example right now our rollout just did a case study on, when we give them the option of talking to a person or talking to a technology, 95% of people choose the Chatbot. They ask 1.8 questions and the 1.8 questions can be divided into very specific, it's not chat. Chat is misleading. You don't, it's not about asking you how the weather is or stuff like that.
Bill: The questions are very much either functional, how do I apply, where do I apply, where do I upload or information. What's the salary?
Joel: Where does it go?
Bill: Very, very specific and I think we're actually beginning to see the benefit of that. The other real interesting bit of data I'll give you out of what we see out of Airbus is the more Senior and the older the candidate, the more likely they are to choose a Chatbot over a person, which I think is the opposite of what we were expecting when we started tracking.
Joel: What was the percentage on the choice of Chat bot over human,
Bill: Well it went to 95% within two weeks and literally how we run it is the only way you get a chatbot to work properly is to run a human alongside it for six to eight weeks.
Joel: To learn-
Bill: Collect, learning, learning stuff, but actually, in top of the funnel, the preference is overwhelmingly to get the answers from technology and the questions that are asked a very direct. What job pays the most money? Is there going to be drug screening in this interview process? Now, things that literally, stuff like that, which is a yes or no, but determines whether people are going to apply or not. And I think they've looked on it and said the chatbots are the bullshit meter. It's like the machine's not going to lie to me. The person will.
Joel: I think what's great about chatbots made my, I guess number three in that list, but when we hear about startups, we never really know what's going to catch on and what, what will and what won't. And when chatbots came out, we were both very skeptical I think, about this. But the numbers are clear from what Bill talked about and history plays this out, right? Job seekers are so tired of the black hole applying to a company, never hearing back. They're much happier talking to a robot, than not talking to anyone at all. And then on the employer side, instead of repeatedly, you know, answering the same questions, you can automate that process and it just works for both and the numbers and the engagement. Put that out. The other thing I would add is anyone ever been ghosted in an interview or you know, like everybody, right? So chatbots had been described as anti-ghosting magic, because there's something in the engagement there, that keeps
Bill: I think it makes you challenge 21-piece. I think the other thing you need to think about when we're talking about chatbots is there is in the talent space there's probably only one or two pure chatbots. So most of what we would consider to be chatbots are actually taskbots. They're the Wade and Wendy, the AllyO's they're designed to do specific pieces of the puzzle rather than the engagement. So a chatbot is UI. That's usually experienced user interface. So think about it that way and don't think about it in terms of task. If you want a task bot, go get a task bot.
Craig: It also helps alleviate some of the mobile apply problems of the past as well.
Joel: So I'm going to move on with my nice list, if that's okay with you guys.
Joel: So my nice list, first one is one platform to rule them all. Chad will disagree with this, but I think more and more, and I think the Microsoft-LinkedIn marriage has sort of sparked more interest in this. I think Google getting into the game, although they killed them [crosstalk 00:19:21] but there was a dream of sort of Google would be this ATS job posting sourcing tool. One thing to rule them all, Chad mentioned the acquisitions. You had job by buying you know, pieces to be one platform. You had iCIMS do something similar. You have all these ATS is building out marketplaces similar to you know, your iPhone app store where if you like this feature they have an app for that ATS. If you like this company's solution you can add it on to the ATS. So my nice list was instead of, you know, having different solutions, different tabs, open, different things that you're using all the time, that we're moving toward one solution to sort of bring in all the things that you do for recruiting. So to me that made my nice list this year. The one platform,
the one stop shop.
Bill: I would add to that the one stop shop is equally the integrated marketplace and the products I'm really interested in seeing how it flies at the moment is a company called Talent App Store, which separates out Onepoint solutions by API, so you can buy single use for what you want in all kinds of products and a genuine vendor marketplace. So I think when we get that through one interface, that's where I see [crosstalk 00:20:36]
Joel: the hurdles to build apps for all these ATS is needs to be-
Bill: The best features will always be point solutions from startups. Always.
Craig: The only way that we get to that one platform is through a marketplace. That's the only way not going to roll up all of these-
Joel: Your bearishness is on one company saying we're going to do it off.
Craig: Yeah, I don't think, I don't think that's the case ever.
Bill: CRM and ATS is becoming a single thing with no middle way bit, so you've got, you know everyone from like Avature who were a CRM building and-
Craig: It becomes core, it becomes core.
Joel: And ultimately, the applications are your future acquisition. So you had iCIMs with text recruit. They learned that through that application that texting was really a solid solution for recruiters, so they just went out and bought it and brought it in house.
Bill: So we got recruiters saying, I only really want one. I at least want one screen and one place that I go, I don't want to have to go lots of different places that don't really join.
Joel: That's where We're removing. Yeah. Nice. All right. Next to going back to naughty, it's my favorite. Anybody seeing the new Amazon commercials, the one that made them look all happy and fun and they're paying for my college and all that other fun stuff.
Craig: Yeah. It's almost like a political, you know, opponent who is spending $30 million to be able to get there. You know, the Bloomberg effect, right. Spending a lot of money to try to win something. What they're trying to win here is optics because if you've been paying attention on the Amazon side of the house, they've been testing and using haptic bracelets where you will get buzzed if you're far too far away from your workspace. Your quotas are so crazy that they have employee pissing in trash cans. I mean, so you have these things happening. They're happening, they're reported, and guess what? Now we have a campaign where we're trying to go ahead and just [crosstalk 00:22:25]
Bill: That's exactly what happens. They end up on the best places to work. The Best Places to Work Awards are generally for the top 10% of employees and not the 90% percentage turn up and do, do you drive the vans or make your burgers or serve you coffee? They're not consulted in the survey.
Joel: You're with me on this being nasty.
Bill: I'm with you on that, but my one, which is fairly closely tied into that is really what we've seen through the use technology and convenience. We as consumers demand more and more convenience and in convenience we demand things like Airbnb that make it easier for us. Uber, any of these businesses, Amazon, quick delivery, Deliveroos, deliver meals. We guarantee that what technology has done is, it's made our life easier as consumers and screwed the employee at the bottom of the chain.
Joel: We don't want to say how the sausage is made [crosstalk 00:23:20]
Bill: is the guy who's getting paid to do the sausage.
Chad: always talking about the sausage.
Bill: Is now self-employed and paid by productivity, has no sick-pay, has no pension, has no, anything else. The only way we're going to change that is as consumers. So as consumers, we need to start saying, I'm going to forego a bit of convenience because I'm really not happy with exploitation of people.
Joel: Or it'll get regulated.
Bill: And the last thing I want is the government running my internet, by the way, that's last place I want to go.
Joel: Yes, 2020 will be very interesting.
Chad: It will be very interesting.
Bill: I think my naughty was I'd take it because I want to keep it nice and short. I'll take it from the, if everyone saw the Sacha Baron Cohen talk on the top of that, when they were talking about when Sacha Baron Cohen, if you haven't seen that, I recommend you do, is talking about the internet said that if Facebook was available in the forties Hitler would have bought ads and I think that's kind of the way we've got to think about the place we're at now.
Joel: Yeah. His quote on that was your, you're provided the right of free speech but not free reach.
Bill: Not free reach.
Chad: Really. That was interesting. Yeah, you should definitely check that out. Okay.
Joel: It's commercial time.
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Chad: It's Showtime.
Joel: So my, my last naughty here, my payroll, HR, any, anyone out there a client of my payroll, HR. So this is a, there's a special layer of hell for these guys. Michael Mann, I want to make sure I got the facts right here. So again, this is still legit because the FBI is still investigating, but so Michael Mann is CEO of this company. They had 5,000 customers representing 250,000 employees. They basically just pulled the whole company. They had $35 million in salaries in their accounts, that disappeared. When companies tried to call to ask what's going on, the phone lines had been cut, according to story, their social media profiles had been wiped. So from all perspectives, this guy took the money and got the hell out of Dodge and you had 5,000 companies screwed, not being able to pay their employees. So these are real people, with real problems, not getting paid. And these guys top my naughty list this year. Michael Mann, MyPayrollHR. Allens T back off.
Chad: And I can't agree more on that. All right, so the last time through. Nice. Right. This is it. So I changed mine. Just so you know.
Joel: We're almost done guys.
Chad: So who, who's, who's seen the, the, the talking robot head 10 guy. That's, that leads, that's my last nice. So as we-
Bill: You already liked them because they flew you to Sweden [crosstalk 00:26:47]
Joel: Full disclosure, right?
Bill: They bought you.
Chad: This just made it to my list.
Chad: So as we take a look at technology and what we're comfortable with, this is something that is really hard to be comfortable with. I mean, literally it's a head that can see you, talk to you. It's not animatronic by any way. You can check it out on YouTube or whatever. But it is, it pushes us further. Right. Do I think that we're ready for it now? No. Some companies will be, they're not tryi