Ageism in Tech: Dan Lyons on ‘Disrupted,’ Silicon Valley & Toxic Culture

Maureen sits down with Dan Lyons — bestselling author of Disrupted, former Newsweek and Forbes journalist, and writer for HBO’s hit series Silicon Valley.

At 52 years old, Dan made the jump from traditional media into a hyped tech startup… and quickly discovered he was suddenly “ancient” in an industry that worships youth. From bouncy ball chairs and candy walls to getting sized up as “someone’s parent” on day one, Dan delivers hilarious, painful, and brutally honest stories about ageism in tech.

He breaks down the infamous CEO quote that sparked a company-wide controversy (“Gray hair and experience are overrated”), his wild ride writing for Silicon Valley, and what he uncovered in his follow-up book Lab Rats about toxic work culture, psychological burnout, and why so many companies treat employees like disposable kids.

If you’re in recruiting, HR, or tech — and especially if you’re over 40 and wondering whether experience still has value — this conversation is equal parts laugh-out-loud funny and eye-opening.

Needless to day, Dan Lyons doesn’t hold back.

PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION

[00:00:00] Dan Lyons: The other guy was like a little bit older than I was, I think even, but he spotted me like the first day or first week and- ... like tracked me down, and he said, "I heard they hired you, man. Like you gotta go to lunch and stuff." So we became like little lunch buddies, you know, like the two old guys.

[00:00:16] Maureen Wiley Clough: Is it like, is it like in Silicon Valley where Monica is made to be best friends with the new coder-

[00:00:21] Dan Lyons: Yeah

[00:00:22] Maureen Wiley Clough: just because she's another woman at the tech company?

[00:00:24] Dan Lyons: Well, a- a- and just like that, I said to him at one point, like, "Uh, dude, we gotta break up. Like we can't- ... we can't be seen as a pair. Like you come over to my desk, and then all my, all my colleagues see you, and we go, 'Okay, going off to lunch,' you know, me and my buddy."

[00:00:40] Dan Lyons: The two old

[00:00:40] Maureen Wiley Clough: guys.

[00:00:40] Dan Lyons: And, yeah, the two old guys walking out. Like we can't... It looks worse than either of us alone. We should meet at the restaurant. Let's like leave separately. Don't, and, and come back separately. Don't get seen-

[00:00:50] Maureen Wiley Clough: Like it was a clandestine affair or something.

[00:00:51] Dan Lyons: Yeah, yeah. Like we don't wanna couple up.

[00:00:56] Maureen Wiley Clough: You're listening to It Gets Late Early, a show about the experience of getting [00:01:00] older in the tech industry. I'm your host, Maureen Wiley Cluff. Let's dive in.

[00:01:08] Dan Lyons: A quick note for the audience today. My tech failed me massively for this episode. Both my headphones and my microphone would not connect, so this means the audio isn't up to our regular standards. Really sorry about that, and can't wait to get you better audio next episode. Okay, here we go.

[00:01:23] Maureen Wiley Clough: Welcome to It Gets Late Early.

[00:01:24] Maureen Wiley Clough: Today is a big day for me. This is kind of a bit of a bucket list moment for me as a podcaster because this book, the author of this book, Disrupted, Dan Lyons, is here with me today, and this book is ki- it's kind of like the OG book about being old in tech. Which is actually a large part of the reason I, I decided to do this podcast, and this really set me off on the path.

[00:01:48] Maureen Wiley Clough: So for better or worse, Dan Lyons, thank you for writing this book because this podcast wouldn't probably exist without you, and I'm just really grateful that you said yes. So thank you. Welcome.

[00:01:59] Dan Lyons: Oh, [00:02:00] gosh, thank you for, for having me on. I, I, I'm really always grateful to meet anybody who liked anything I wrote, to be honest.

[00:02:08] Dan Lyons: So yeah, thank you. I, I, I'm, I'm looking forward to talking with you about it.

[00:02:13] Maureen Wiley Clough: Awesome. So for those of you who don't know, Dan wrote the New York Times best-selling book, Disrupted, which is all about joining a tech startup at the ripe old age of 52 and feeling like a fish out of water from the get-go. And he also wrote for the absolute smash hit HBO comedy series, Silicon Valley, which is about Silicon Valley.

[00:02:32] Maureen Wiley Clough: So, uh, Dan is amazing, and everybody who doesn't know about his work, uh, that's on you. You gotta go figure that out and, uh, and read the book and watch the series.

[00:02:42] Dan Lyons: Yes. That'd be great. Please do. Buy, buy many copies of the book. But yeah, I've, I always... That was the thing, I always found tech to be really funny.

[00:02:51] Dan Lyons: It seems to me such a great source of comedy.

[00:02:55] Maureen Wiley Clough: It is. I mean, tech is hysterical. Yeah. I mean, as you so rightly point out in the book and- Yeah ... and [00:03:00] throughout Silicon Valley, which is essentially a documentary, as many people have said. It's just-

[00:03:03] Dan Lyons: Yeah, people say that. Yeah.

[00:03:04] Maureen Wiley Clough: So Dan, take us back in time. It's around 2012, and there are all sorts of changes afoot in the media industry, in the journalism world, and you decide after losing your job, which was a tough story to read, by the way, and plenty of us in tech are feeling that these days.

[00:03:21] Maureen Wiley Clough: There's been a massive- Yeah ... layoff boom. Uh, but you, you lose your job, and then you decide to make your way into the tech startup world. Tell me a little bit about that transition.

[00:03:34] Dan Lyons: Sure. Right. So, so yeah, I was at Newsweek, and y- y- you know, you could see it was coming. Most of my colleagues had already taken buyouts.

[00:03:44] Dan Lyons: I, for whatever reason, hung on and got laid off. And, you know, some of the refugees from Newsweek had ended up at Time, and I called over there, and like, "No, we already have tech people. Yeah, sorry." So like, no jobs. And- And

[00:03:56] Maureen Wiley Clough: how long have you been at Newsweek, by the way?

[00:03:57] Dan Lyons: Only four years. But then I'd been at Forbes for 10 [00:04:00] years before

[00:04:01] Maureen Wiley Clough: that.

[00:04:02] Dan Lyons: Oh. That's like a lifetime in tech. Yeah, right? I know. But, you know, for many of the last years of those jobs, you're always waiting for the next layoff. It's when the internet was starting to really eat away at the business. So You know, you've been in a dying business for a long time. And I had toyed with the idea over the years of switching over and going to work at a tech company, 'cause I had covered all these companies and I saw all these people, you know, making a fortune, and I thought, you know, they're, they're smarter than I am.

[00:04:31] Dan Lyons: I mean, the, the, you know, the, the PR people and stuff, I was like, "I could do that," you know? So I thought, you know... So I had actually interviewed over the years for different jobs, and half-heartedly. Anyways, so this time I said, "Okay, this is it. I'm, I'm gonna go and go work in tech," which is what, you know, all old journalists do at cer- certain point.

[00:04:48] Dan Lyons: All my friends have gone to do that. They're all at tech companies now. It all landed pretty well. And I then I thought, "Well, where?" And so I had connections at different companies and I, uh, you [00:05:00] know, went out and interviewed. I had one really great opportunity that I, I wish I had taken, but I didn't. And my wife didn't really wanna leave Boston, and the problem is there's not a lot of tech in Boston.

[00:05:11] Dan Lyons: And then I found a place in Cambridge that was hiring, and they were a startup, and I thought, "Well, good, I'll go there. This is cool." And, and you know, it's a startup, so you might get... You know, you're getting in on the ground floor on something that's really gonna take off is maybe better than going to some big company that's, you know- Totally So- A lot of it's calculation

[00:05:33] Dan Lyons: Yeah. And also it was just I wouldn't have to disrupt the family. We could just stay here, and I would have this job. And it was g- I was gonna be writing, so I kind of thought, "Well, same kind of work, and my, my skills will be applicable here." You know, it's a good... 'Cause that's the, the challenge you have as a journalist is what, what skills do you really have, like research, r- reporting and writing, and we tend, however, not to have great...

[00:05:56] Dan Lyons: We tend to be a little more blunt or a little people f- you know, like rude [00:06:00] in our, in our business. But with each other, we all get it, you know what I mean? And we kind of like, yeah, we tend to be cynical. We tend to be, you know-

[00:06:08] Maureen Wiley Clough: It's fun being in a newsroom. I, I kind of miss it. It's great.

[00:06:10] Dan Lyons: Yeah. Right? It's, it's like it's great, and if you like it.

[00:06:13] Dan Lyons: So yeah- Yeah ... you have to kind of tone that down, you know? I w- And so that's the challenge when you're a journalist at crossing over is, is more that, like the cultural behavioral thing. So but I thought, "Uh, that'll be a challenge," but, you know, I'm in my mind, I'm still young. You know, like I'm 52. I'm 52, you know?

[00:06:33] Dan Lyons: Like that's... And yeah. So that's how I ended up going to work at a startup.

[00:06:40] Maureen Wiley Clough: So at that time, you weren't particularly concerned about your age getting in the way?

[00:06:45] Dan Lyons: I'd never thought of it. Of high level I'd never even thought about my age.

[00:06:47] Maureen Wiley Clough: Wow. Wow. You were in for an awakening it sounds like. Yeah. So, so talk about...

[00:06:54] Maureen Wiley Clough: So you've explained a little bit why you chose the company that you landed at. Makes sense, all of that, very [00:07:00] relatable. Tell me what it was like when you walked in the doors that very first day. Yeah. Take us back.

[00:07:05] Dan Lyons: It's a great scene in the book, right?

[00:07:07] Maureen Wiley Clough: There is.

[00:07:07] Dan Lyons: And I think it's the opening scene in the book, the opening of the intro of the chap- uh, the first chapter.

[00:07:12] Dan Lyons: And actually, I, you know, I sold this and I adapted it as a film script, and didn't get, didn't get made, but it was the same- Well, it's such a great- ... same opening of the movie. You know, the poor schlub riding into work. So I, I... Looking back now, I realize what happened is the two founders hired me. And

[00:07:30] Maureen Wiley Clough: then- So you were early enough that you had founders interviewing you or-

[00:07:32] Dan Lyons: Well, and I was, like, old enough.

[00:07:33] Dan Lyons: One of the founders had seen me give a talk once, and he liked the talk, you know. That's- And they kinda... Yeah, I, I guess. I don't know. I also found out later that other people had been through the same thing. The founders hired them, put them in the job I had, and then they all got-

[00:07:48] Maureen Wiley Clough: Oh,

[00:07:48] Dan Lyons: God ... It was all a train wreck.

[00:07:49] Dan Lyons: Over and over, it was a train wreck. And so they keep- Never

[00:07:51] Maureen Wiley Clough: a good

[00:07:52] Dan Lyons: sign. They assigned me to the CMO. And I interviewed with the CMO, and it seemed, seemed to go well. But then- So I thought I [00:08:00] was reporting to the CMO. I was kinda disappointed. I thought I'd report to the founder. I kinda thought I should be, like, their advisor, you know?

[00:08:06] Dan Lyons: And they were like, "No." But then like- And then it turns out the CMO didn't want me either. And-

[00:08:11] Maureen Wiley Clough: Great

[00:08:11] Dan Lyons: story ... so, so I showed up, like, on Monday morning, you know? B- bright-eyed, and- But it's the weekend here ... yeah, and the woman at the desk is a young woman. I forget her name. She was really funny. I really li- I ended up really liking her, but she's like, "Okay, uh, can I help you?"

[00:08:26] Dan Lyons: I'm like, "Yeah, I'm, I'm here. It's my first day. I'm a new employee." She's like, "You are?" Like, looking at me- ... like, what, you know? 'Cause people used to stop me and be like, "Are you looking for someone? I thought maybe you were someone's parent." I'm like-

[00:08:39] Maureen Wiley Clough: Yeah, it's like bring your parent to work day

[00:08:40] Dan Lyons: type thing.

[00:08:41] Dan Lyons: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was, so I was like, "No, no, no, I work here." And she's like, "You do?" I was like, "Well, it's my first day." And it's like, "Well, who do you, who do you work for? Who's your boss?" I tell her, the CMO. She makes a call, and I'm sitting there now, I'm watching. They have, uh, TED Talks on loop in the little waiting area.

[00:08:56] Dan Lyons: That's amazing. You know, so sitting there with my little backpack trying to look [00:09:00] like a cool startup guy, and she comes back and says, "Well, the CMO isn't here." I go, "Okay." Said, "Oh, there's some other, uh, guy I talked to who works for the CMO. May- maybe it's, maybe he's around," right? And she goes, "No." This sounds cool.

[00:09:15] Dan Lyons: "No, he's not here either." And I'm like, "Oh, geez." Then I'm thinking, like, did I have the wrong week? You know, I look at my calendar like, maybe I'm supposed to start next Monday, you know? Like, no, it's pretty sure it says right here, "Come in Monday." So this guy... She said, "Hold on a second." And the, and this guy comes out, and he's like, "Oh, hey, Dan."

[00:09:34] Dan Lyons: And he's like, I don't know, uh, you know, a young guy, nice guy, like 23, 24. He had worked at Google briefly for, like, two years selling ads, and then he was here. And he had just started. And I didn't know what he did, but I thought maybe he was, like, the admin for the CMO. And he said, "Well, you know, those guys aren't around, but I'm gonna take you around and just give you a tour of the place, show you where everything is, okay?

[00:09:55] Dan Lyons: Help you get settled in." So I'm thinking, okay, this is like, you know- [00:10:00] that, you know?

[00:10:00] Maureen Wiley Clough: Yeah.

[00:10:00] Dan Lyons: And, uh, so we go around and he's showing me, and it's, you know, increasingly more insane, like the big game room- ... and the, the candy wall and the kitchen and this and that. You know, and the whole thing is just crazy, and there's all, like, motivational sayings everywhere.

[00:10:14] Dan Lyons: But I'm kinda like, "Oh, this is cool. This is startup-y."

[00:10:16] Maureen Wiley Clough: Are there instruments laying around? Huh? That's my personal favorite.

[00:10:18] Dan Lyons: Like- The what?

[00:10:19] Maureen Wiley Clough: Are there instruments laying around? I've seen that at some companies, yeah.

[00:10:21] Dan Lyons: Oh, there was. In fact, we went by one thing and there was, like, a drum kit and some guitars and stuff and amps.

[00:10:26] Dan Lyons: And, and so he's like, "Yeah, it's just if someone wants to jam for a little bit." And I was like... And I said, "Well, has anybody, does anybody ever do that?" He's like, "No." "No, but it's there 'cause it's, like, our culture." I was like, "What do you mean?" They're like, "You know, we're fun." You know, "Okay. You're a fun culture."

[00:10:39] Dan Lyons: "Okay, I get it." And he's like, "Yeah, like we do outings where everybody goes and we do go-karts and stuff. Like, we have... It's really fun. This is a really fun place." I'm like, "I get it. Okay. It's-" "... seems really fun." You know? And then, uh, we go to the... He's like, "Oh, let, let, let's go to a little office," you know, 'cause everybody worked open style.

[00:10:56] Dan Lyons: They had these little meeting rooms, you know?

[00:10:58] Maureen Wiley Clough: Oh, yeah.

[00:10:58] Dan Lyons: Open office. And then you have to reserve them. [00:11:00] I love transparency, right? Yeah. It's awful. So we go into this little tiny room, and there's a whiteboard, and he said, "Do you know how the, the marketing department is, uh, organized?" And I'm like, "No." "Well, let me show you."

[00:11:10] Dan Lyons: So, so he starts drawing, like, "So we don't really have org charts, but, you know-"

[00:11:14] Maureen Wiley Clough: Oh, God. "...

[00:11:14] Dan Lyons: but this is what the org chart would be. And there's this and that. Then over here is this team. Over here is this team. And then there's me, and then you're in here." And I'm like looking at it. I go, "Yeah, okay." I was like, "So wait a minute.

[00:11:24] Dan Lyons: So do I work for you?" Like, "Are you, are you my boss?" And he said, "Well, we don't really have bosses, but..." And I'm like-

[00:11:33] Maureen Wiley Clough: Oh,

[00:11:33] Dan Lyons: gosh ... "But you're my boss?" He's like, "Yeah, basically, yeah." I'm like- ... "Oh, I thought you were, I thought you were..." You know, I didn't say what I thought, but... And then suddenly I had this, like, panic attack.

[00:11:44] Dan Lyons: He's like, "Well, let's go show you where you're gonna be working." And I'm like, "All right. Okay." And, uh, so I'm following him, and now as I'm looking around, I realize they're all children. And I start having this, like this acid flashback where- Like, [00:12:00] they, they, they all look like I, in this, like, LSD where they look like they were 12-year-olds playing dress up And I was like, "Oh, shit.

[00:12:07] Dan Lyons: Oh, shit. Like, they're kids, you know?" What have I done? Now, this sounds very ageist on my part, and that's what they would say- I know, right ... is that I was, I was very- It does

[00:12:13] Maureen Wiley Clough: go both, it does go both ways. You're correct.

[00:12:15] Dan Lyons: Right. And, and, and they, you know, and they would say, like, "Yeah, you just wrote us all off 'cause we were only 22," or something.

[00:12:22] Dan Lyons: And like, yeah, you know, whatever. It's just weird, right? And so we get to this little room, and there's like just, they call it the content factory. There's, I don't know, 10 or 12 people. It's a little tiny thing. It used to be, like, a library, and it was just desks lined up, like two desks facing two desks facing two des- you know, you know, you and I sitting across from each other.

[00:12:43] Dan Lyons: Putting out content

[00:12:44] Maureen Wiley Clough: all day.

[00:12:45] Dan Lyons: Making the content. Making the content. And so I m- meet them all, but I can't remember any of their names. You know what I mean? And like, and he's like, "Well, I don't know where we're gonna put you, but, oh, we have this like, this, like, a spare desk over here, and we'll get you a laptop."

[00:12:58] Dan Lyons: And like, there's, like, a bouncy [00:13:00] ball chair, you know? Like, it's a big orange bouncy ball chair. And I'm like, "Uh, dude, you know, I don't know. Can I, you got any, can I, can I get a, a chair chair, you know? Like, I don't..." 'Cause on the one hand, I don't look like, I don't wanna look like I'm old, and I'm, you know, I'm like, I'm not cool.

[00:13:12] Dan Lyons: No, that's cool. But on the other hand, like, I'll, I'll wipe out. If I sit on that thing, I am gonna fall, you know? And there's a whole room. They were all, I think, all women. There might've been one guy, but let's, basically,

[00:13:23] Maureen Wiley Clough: I was like, "I'm gonna-" That's, that's a rarity in tech, too. So you must've been in either HR or marketing, so there you are.

[00:13:27] Dan Lyons: Yeah. And I'm like, "I'm gonna wipe out on the floor in front of all these women." And they're just gonna laugh their asses off me. And it's day one, I'm just a... So they said, "We'll get you a chair." So they went and found a real chair. And then, like, I don't know, somehow got me a laptop.

[00:13:45] Maureen Wiley Clough: Wow.

[00:13:45] Dan Lyons: And they're like, "Okay, so you're all set."

[00:13:48] Dan Lyons: And I'm like, "Well, you know, what do you want me to do?" Like, "Oh, I don't know. I don't know. Who hired you?" And I'm like, "Well, you know, but, like..."

[00:13:55] Maureen Wiley Clough: Who gives me this? That

[00:13:56] Dan Lyons: dude. "What did he tell you? What did he tell you you were gonna do?" I was like, "I don't know what to tell you, but he told me I was gonna be running [00:14:00] the blog.

[00:14:00] Dan Lyons: And, like, all these people over here that work on the blog, I think I'm gonna be their boss, you know?" Oh my gosh. 'Cause the founders were like, "Our blog sucks." Yeah. "We need someone to come in and fix it." So it's, I kind of thought, like, oh, that's what I'm doing.

[00:14:11] Maureen Wiley Clough: These people report to me. Yeah.

[00:14:13] Dan Lyons: Yeah, right? And they're like, "No, no."

[00:14:15] Dan Lyons: "That's not the case." And so, so, like, really, for a while, I, I didn't know what I was doing. And then I think I went and got a badge, you know, and-

[00:14:27] Maureen Wiley Clough: Yeah ...

[00:14:27] Dan Lyons: went down to the candy wall

[00:14:29] Maureen Wiley Clough: That's like a first

[00:14:29] Dan Lyons: day moment. Yeah.

[00:14:30] Maureen Wiley Clough: What? That's the-

[00:14:30] Dan Lyons: You don't have to do Yeah, you- when you're onboarding, there's all this stuff.

[00:14:34] Dan Lyons: Oh, no, then there was two weeks of training or onboarding or a week or two.

[00:14:37] Maureen Wiley Clough: Oh, yeah, yeah. That's when they sell the Kool-Aid super hard.

[00:14:40] Dan Lyons: Totally. It's the most, most- Totally. Yeah,

[00:14:42] Maureen Wiley Clough: yeah.

[00:14:42] Dan Lyons: And so that kept me busy for a couple weeks, but then, like, I still really didn't know, like, what do I, what do I do here? And they're like...

[00:14:49] Dan Lyons: And it's, I learned- Ugh ... the really bad thing is I've heard people say, "Well, it's kind- the job is gonna be kinda like what you make it, you know?" Oh,

[00:14:56] Maureen Wiley Clough: God.

[00:14:56] Dan Lyons: You just go, "We don't give a lot of direction here." And I was like- [00:15:00]

[00:15:00] Maureen Wiley Clough: We like go-getters, though, that just-

[00:15:02] Dan Lyons: Yeah. And like, can you... You know, and it's like, you know, if you need a lot of direction, this isn't a good place for you.

[00:15:06] Dan Lyons: And it's like, well, a little direction would be good. Just like- You know? ...

[00:15:09] Maureen Wiley Clough: the slightest bit would be good.

[00:15:10] Dan Lyons: Like, I, I was talking on, when the book came out and I was doing promo, I went to WGBH, the radio station in Boston, for a interview with the woman who has a show on the radio, Callie Crossley. And like, she couldn't believe this, and I was like, "Yeah, I know."

[00:15:24] Dan Lyons: I said, "But Callie, it would be like you got hired here, and you showed up on the first day and you said, 'Okay, what do I do?'" And they were like, "Well, you know, I don't know. Here's a microphone. I guess, you know, just hang out and we'll figure something out." Like, you know.

[00:15:37] Maureen Wiley Clough: Get some candy at the candy wall. Yeah.

[00:15:38] Dan Lyons: Yeah, nobody, no, you know... They'd say to you, "You have the 8, 8:00 AM to 9:00 AM slot, and your show is about..." Like, no, there was none. You know? So- Yeah, like pretty quickly I knew this was a mistake

[00:15:51] Maureen Wiley Clough: That's so brutal. I mean, we all, we all have reality, right, that we have to deal with, right? We live in a country that doesn't give us health [00:16:00] insurance so like-

[00:16:00] Dan Lyons: Right

[00:16:01] Maureen Wiley Clough: you need to go get a job. You have a family that you need to provide for, so you're in between a rock and a hard place, right? There's a point in the book when you talk about the overt ageism that is displayed by your CEO at that company, where he literally says on the record, like, "We really wanna hire people who are younger," essentially.

[00:16:20] Maureen Wiley Clough: Yeah. And you then in response went on your p- your personal Facebook and you made a post about that. And so that's one thing that I'd love for you to walk the audience through, because, you know, a lot of people in tech are feeling that. You had just people, like the floodgates opened, and people were like, "Me too, me too, me too."

[00:16:38] Maureen Wiley Clough: So I think that's, that's really what this podcast is all about, is validating people's experience. So I, I would love if we could take a bit of this, this interview and have you recollect exactly what happened there and kinda walk down, walk down that delightful memory lane.

[00:16:55] Dan Lyons: Yeah, sure. Yeah.

[00:16:57] Maureen Wiley Clough: I'm sorry if this is gonna be a little scarring for [00:17:00]

[00:17:00] Dan Lyons: you.

[00:17:00] Dan Lyons: Yeah, it's gonna be rough. Like it's like reopening all these things. Well, oddly enough, many, many years later, that experience also led me to write the, the more recent book, you know, Shut the F Up.

[00:17:13] Maureen Wiley Clough: Yeah

[00:17:13] Dan Lyons: Because I look back on that now and realize, God, I, I just, I should have just said nothing. So to recap, CEO of the company was interviewed in The New York Times and said, in effect, "We really only wanna hire young people."

[00:17:27] Dan Lyons: Um, and the, the money quote was like, "Gray hair and experience are really overrated in tech."

[00:17:31] Maureen Wiley Clough: Yes, in tech.

[00:17:33] Dan Lyons: And then I was like, "Ugh, okay." But then the... They were very aggressive in, in, in PR, and they gave, you know, the word came out to the whole company, like 500 people. Like, we all gotta get out there and put this on your social and promote this and drive traffic to this article

[00:17:49] Maureen Wiley Clough: You're like, drive for an article, drive traffic to an article that says you don't want me at this company?

[00:17:53] Maureen Wiley Clough: Awesome.

[00:17:53] Dan Lyons: Yeah, but like whatever, you know? And, uh, but they, they didn't even think of that. Like it didn't, you know, and it wasn't like-

[00:17:58] Maureen Wiley Clough: Of course not- Yeah ... 'cause you're one of what? Like- Two [00:18:00] people there

[00:18:00] Dan Lyons: maybe? Two. There's like two guys. Uh- Yeah ... well, the other guy was like a little bit older than I was I think even, but he spotted me like the first day or first week and like- Ugh

[00:18:12] Dan Lyons: tracked me down and he said, "I heard they hired you, man. Like you gotta go to lunch and stuff." So we became like little lunch buddies, you know? Like the two old guys.

[00:18:18] Maureen Wiley Clough: Is it like, is it like in Silicon Valley where Monica is made to be best friends with the new coder?

[00:18:24] Dan Lyons: Yeah.

[00:18:24] Maureen Wiley Clough: Just because she's another woman at the tech company?

[00:18:26] Dan Lyons: Well, a- a- and just like that, I said to him at one point like, "Uh, dude, we gotta break up. Like we can't- ... we can't be seen as a pair. Like you come over to my desk and then all my f- all my colleagues see you and we go, 'Okay, going off to lunch,' you know, me and my buddy." And-

[00:18:42] Maureen Wiley Clough: The two old

[00:18:42] Dan Lyons: guys. Yeah, the two old guys walking out.

[00:18:44] Dan Lyons: Like we can't, it looks worse than either of us alone. Totally. Yes. So we should meet, we should meet at the restaurant. Let's like leave separately, don't, and d- and come back separately. Don't get seen.

[00:18:53] Maureen Wiley Clough: Like it was a clandestine affair or something like that.

[00:18:55] Dan Lyons: Yeah, yeah. Like we don't wanna couple up. And he was having similar issues like I was, [00:19:00] but, and neither of us could really say anything about it, so it was like we kind of, you know, it was like a support group.

[00:19:05] Dan Lyons: But so yeah- Do you- ... there was no, there were no old people, so I didn't think they were afraid. I think the CEO probably didn't even think anyone would care. And in fact, the place was, like the average age was 26 and it was really full of young kids and in many ways that made sense, right? Or some of it.

[00:19:20] Dan Lyons: Mm-hmm. I get, I, I could see why, but so here's the other... So, so having come from the, the, the journalism world, you know- You're a little freer in that world to be kind of irreverent about your own institution or your boss a little bit, you know? In the sake, you can be a little obnoxious and- ... get away with it.

[00:19:42] Dan Lyons: Like I worked at Forbes, and they had a deal for a while where they did a show on Fox, and it was called Forbes on Fox, and they were all conservative. This is way before MAGA. Like, this is like their sane kind of conservative, like- The

[00:19:53] Maureen Wiley Clough: good old days ...

[00:19:54] Dan Lyons: you know. Yeah, it was before- When

[00:19:56] Maureen Wiley Clough: Republicans weren't

[00:19:57] Dan Lyons: nuts.

[00:19:57] Dan Lyons: Yeah, before they went mad men. It was, like, before [00:20:00] even the... What was the one? The Tea Party.

[00:20:03] Maureen Wiley Clough: Oh, gosh.

[00:20:03] Dan Lyons: Yeah. They were even before that. So like, you know, we would all make fun of it 'cause we're all liberals. We, you know, we- one of my friends was the, the token liberal on the show so they could beat up on somebody every week.

[00:20:12] Dan Lyons: And like- ... you know, we all knew, and they knew, and we- it was, like, fine. We could rip on them, you know? So but I, so I had a funny joke about, you know, I quoted the CEO and then said, you know, "Says the CEO of the company where I fucking work", and, uh- Of all companies.

[00:20:30] Maureen Wiley Clough: And you put that on your Facebook.

[00:20:31] Dan Lyons: Ah, yeah.

[00:20:31] Dan Lyons: And like, and I thought about it for a while. I was like, "No," and I deleted it, put it back, delete it. And, you know, looking back now, now being older and wiser and, you know, more heavily medicated, I think now I would know enough to just say, "You know what? Walk away." Yeah. "If you want to do it tomorrow, like, come back tomorrow.

[00:20:50] Dan Lyons: Don't do it now." But instead, I hit, I hit, you know, publish or whatever. And I didn't realize... I thought it was funny, right? And I had a link [00:21:00] to the article, too. And I kind of thought it was funny. Like, "Ha ha, yeah, guess what? My boss doesn't like me." Like, I know the guy liked me. You know what I mean? It wasn't like, it wasn't a serious rip.

[00:21:11] Dan Lyons: I was a little peeved, but it was also kind of like, "Oh, this guy kind of stepped in it here," you know? And, uh-

[00:21:17] Maureen Wiley Clough: Sometimes you gotta call

[00:21:17] Dan Lyons: people out ... like, I kind of figured it would be the kind of thing where the CEO would be like, "Dan," I'd be like, "Hey, come on, man. Come on. What are you talking about?" You know?

[00:21:24] Dan Lyons: Gray hair. All right. And he'd be like, "Oh, sorry." He had gray hair. You know what I mean?

[00:21:27] Maureen Wiley Clough: And, uh- That's interesting. It's like, come on, man.

[00:21:29] Dan Lyons: Yeah, like I, I... But I, I thought, you know, we'd laugh about it. Like, "Hey, man, that made me feel special. Ha ha ha." Anyway, but- The people that I knew on Facebook all started piling in.

[00:21:42] Dan Lyons: And to your point about your podcast, this was the first time I became aware of this, but it was really, really a visceral issue for them. They were all, you know, I guess my age, more or less, you know, a lot of them. And I think all had felt this kind of [00:22:00] thing and really, really it started getting a lot of comments, you know?

[00:22:04] Dan Lyons: And I was like, "Oh, shit, man, this is not good. This is supposed..." And they were really going to town, like making it worse than it was because it was like the guy made a little toss-off comment in an interview. He probably wished he hadn't said it because what he said is essentially like illegal, right?

[00:22:18] Maureen Wiley Clough: Yeah.

[00:22:19] Maureen Wiley Clough: It is actually.

[00:22:20] Dan Lyons: It would be like saying, "You know, we really don't like to hire, you know, women because, you know, they get pregnant and, you know, they're not as smart as the men." You know? Anyway, so, so man, it was the first time, like I said, that I felt the strength of how, how strong the people feel about age bias.

[00:22:38] Dan Lyons: And then, then

[00:22:44] Dan Lyons: It would've, it would've, could've just died right then, but then the head of PR at the company

[00:22:54] Dan Lyons: Weighed in, commenting on my post, 'cause they would watch everybody's social all the time. Oh, yeah. You know, [00:23:00] it's like saying, you know, typical blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I think blah, blah, blah, blah, right? Oh, yeah,

[00:23:05] Maureen Wiley Clough: like

[00:23:05] Dan Lyons: PR. It's gonna be kinda like PR thing, you know, but really, like-

[00:23:08] Maureen Wiley Clough: Well, do you remember what it was?

[00:23:10] Maureen Wiley Clough: Like what-

[00:23:10] Dan Lyons: No, I don't remember ... did you- But it was something- What could the report

[00:23:12] Maureen Wiley Clough: possibly have been?

[00:23:14] Dan Lyons: I, I, I still don't remember, but their, their PR was always sort of very Orwellian, you know, like- ... sort of, you know, happy, happy, you know, blah, blah, blah. Right, right? And then I'm like, "Oh, shit, so the people at work have seen this," right?

[00:23:26] Maureen Wiley Clough: Yeah.

[00:23:27] Dan Lyons: Like, this isn't good. Then the CMO weighed in and said, "Well, you know, the CEO, I think is good 'cause you know where he stands. He says what's on his mind, you know?" So- Oh,

[00:23:37] Maureen Wiley Clough: my gosh ...

[00:23:38] Dan Lyons: uh, then-

[00:23:40] Maureen Wiley Clough: Even if it's legal, he says what's on his mind

[00:23:41] Dan Lyons: Or just, like, even if it's, you know, hurtful or unkind. Anyway-

[00:23:44] Maureen Wiley Clough: Indefensive

[00:23:45] Dan Lyons: people, then people who, other people are teeing off on these people so bad, it gets really ugly. And then on-

[00:23:51] Maureen Wiley Clough: All

[00:23:51] Dan Lyons: on a

[00:23:52] Maureen Wiley Clough: facing page.

[00:23:53] Dan Lyons: Yeah, I don't, yeah, I don't even know how long. And I started thinking, like, I should delete this. This

[00:23:58] Maureen Wiley Clough: is awful.

[00:23:59] Dan Lyons: Like, I should delete the [00:24:00] original post, make it go away, but now it's too late, and if I do that, it will look like they- The

[00:24:03] Maureen Wiley Clough: internet's

[00:24:04] Dan Lyons: forever

[00:24:04] Dan Lyons: and it will look like, yeah, the internet's forever. It'll look like they made me take it down.

[00:24:08] Maureen Wiley Clough: Oh, gosh.

[00:24:08] Dan Lyons: So then I was like, "I don't know what to do." So I found I figured I'll try to make a joke out of it, so I found, like, pictures of myself as a kid. Like, there was one- ... I was, I was an altar boy when I was a kid, and I had a picture- Were you?

[00:24:21] Dan Lyons: like in my little robes going like this. It's a really funny... It's, I am looking very serious. My hair is all combed. And I'm like, you know, in front of the fireplace, you know, having this formal picture done. It's either first... I don't think First Communion we wore robes, but anyway, so I'm wearing these little robes, and I'm like, you know, 12, whatever, and I posted it saying I- I'm so sorry

[00:24:40] Dan Lyons: something about, something I, I've just, I've just been hired as, you know, senior director of, of, uh, content marketing or something, and I have a lot of good ideas, you know? Like, this is, we should... 'Cause people are like, "Oh, what's next? They're gonna hire, like, teenagers and stuff?" Like, yeah, they're the smartest, you know.

[00:24:55] Dan Lyons: So- Uh, I, I don't, [00:25:00] I can't even remember the jokes, but it was like, "Yeah, I just applied, you know, my, my, my, my new role." So I thought, "Well, it might as well make it funny, you know?" Hmm. "And maybe that'll save me." But, you know, it didn't really... And so then when I, I went back to work, I went in the next day, and like, eh, you know, so everybody's looking at me.

[00:25:19] Dan Lyons: They all know, you know? And, uh-

[00:25:21] Maureen Wiley Clough: Facebook gate.

[00:25:23] Dan Lyons: Yeah, yeah. And the CEO never said a word to me. And someone said to me, "Yeah, he didn't care even about it at all." But the head of PR was, like, livid, livid, and I had to go make a formal apology, like, like a, like a, you know, reeducation camp thing, and- ... I had to do it, I had to do it very publicly and tell her that I was sorry.

[00:25:45] Dan Lyons: And, and, and, and the reason was that she was mad because this had been a big coup for her to get this drive traffic to, to get this article in New York Times. The New York Times article. It's a big deal. Yeah, right, and then I had ruined it for her. And, and then I had like, no, I really drove probably more traffic to that [00:26:00] article- You know-

[00:26:00] Dan Lyons: than anybody else's post, right?

[00:26:02] Maureen Wiley Clough: The New York Times thing is bad press. That's what she

[00:26:03] Dan Lyons: knows. Right? Anyway, she's really mad, like really, really mad, and like really hurt, and I had to go... I think I got... I order- they were like these cookies, like really nice cookies you could have delivered. I used to get them sometimes when, uh, you know, I, I worked at Forbes for like 10 years, and it's like the IT people would come and save me and help my computer.

[00:26:23] Dan Lyons: I'd- ... I'd order a box of these things, you know, have them sent to the IT department. "Hey, guys." And they're always like, "Hey, man." Just

[00:26:28] Maureen Wiley Clough: hook

[00:26:28] Dan Lyons: it up. Yeah, it's like a way to say thanks to somebody, you know. Okay. That's nice. And, uh- Maybe that's

[00:26:33] Maureen Wiley Clough: why- It's a little gesture ... Denise has never liked me. I never sent him cookies.

[00:26:35] Maureen Wiley Clough: Good tip.

[00:26:35] Dan Lyons: No. Yeah. So I sent her cookies. I think it was cookies or brownies. No, it was brownies. These like really expensive, really good brownies. And I m- made a point of, you know, first I had a big thing with her and I talked to her, and I'm really sorry, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then, then I made this big gesture, like the brownies are delivered by somebody, and she opens them, and there's just a groveling note from me, and of course everybody around her [00:27:00] sees, and it's like, "Come have brownies.

[00:27:01] Dan Lyons: Dan got me brownies 'cause he's an asshole," you know? So, so I was like, "Okay." It was a very public mea culpa, you know? Like, okay, I really fell on my sword big, w- in a big way. And then it was kinda never brought up again. And, and then they hired a new guy in to be my boss, and I said to him like a couple months later, I said, "Hey, man.

[00:27:20] Dan Lyons: I think I'm pretty screwed at this company 'cause of this thing." He said, "Oh, no. No, I know about that." What's this guy? "Nobody, nobody cares about that at all. Nobody cares about that." No. Mm-mm. But then it was a, a year later, but I kinda think I sealed my fate. Although I've thought about it since, like I think maybe they were never gonna keep me for four years.

[00:27:37] Dan Lyons: They often-

[00:27:37] Maureen Wiley Clough: No ...

[00:27:38] Dan Lyons: would hire people- Of course. People- ... keep you for a couple years, and then you're out. You know what I mean? The, they didn't want me to vest, but I vested a little bit, but yeah. So anyway, they, yeah, I think that was That was the first time my eyes were opened to the idea of... Well, that job was the first time I had ever seen anything like that, you know, in terms of age.

[00:27:58] Dan Lyons: I, I had come from [00:28:00] Newsweek, where I was, say, 50. Jon Meacham, the editor, was 39 and won a Pulitzer Prize while we were working there, while he's also editing Newsweek, and we're all like, "Jesus." You know, but it-- And then my boss was, my direct boss, the business editor, was a woman who's almost exactly my age.

[00:28:19] Dan Lyons: And then, um, you know, I, I was never even aware of age. There were older people, younger people, but it wasn't like, you know... Hey, when I was at Forbes, the editor of Forbes was, like, 90 years old. He had been around forever. Jim Michaels was like a legend. But, yeah, it just had never... And I just, I had always been in these workplaces

[00:28:37] Maureen Wiley Clough: I read in the book that you had just actually published a, an article, not you necessarily, but Newsweek had published an article about the, the beached white male or something like that.

[00:28:47] Maureen Wiley Clough: Yeah, yeah,

[00:28:47] Dan Lyons: yeah.

[00:28:48] Maureen Wiley Clough: About male, males in their 40s and 50s plus couldn't find jobs anywhere. So you had that- Yeah ... probably in the back of your mind, right? Um-

[00:28:55] Dan Lyons: Totally. Totally.

[00:28:57] Maureen Wiley Clough: And that's where a lot of people are, right? They're in the sort of the [00:29:00] midlife collision. I heard that term the other day. Instead of the midlife crisis, which is also a thing, the midlife collision, where you have all these responsibilities.

[00:29:07] Maureen Wiley Clough: You might have personal health struggles. You might have aging parents. You might have young children you're supporting. You need to get help, so on and so forth. And so you have to just kinda make it work, right? And so I imagine you've walked into the situation and, and I feel like especially coming from more of a, I guess, a traditional background, you were unlikely to view, like, a short stint in a tech company as something that was passable or okay or something that wouldn't be an issue for you moving forward, right?

[00:29:34] Maureen Wiley Clough: So- Yeah ... I imagine you were like, "Shit, I really effed this up, but I'm here, and now I just have to make it happen." So like- Yeah ... talk that reality.

[00:29:46] Dan Lyons: Yeah. Well, also, I had-- I, I remember thinking, like, I, I-- "This is a great job. I, you know, I can work another 10, 15 years at this place because this company's gonna grow and grow and grow.

[00:29:57] Dan Lyons: I'll, I'll-- This will be my last job. I'll retire [00:30:00] from here. I'll work my way up. This, this company grows, I'll grow, and I'll have, you know-" It was just so stupid. Like, so stupid

[00:30:08] Maureen Wiley Clough: But you worked in tech before. I mean, the things you described to me, I mean, just sort of the Montessori-like vibe and, like, the young sort of atmosphere, like, that speaks very true to me 'cause I've been in tech for a while now, but that was your first foray into it, and-

[00:30:24] Dan Lyons: Yeah

[00:30:25] Maureen Wiley Clough: you unlikely, uh, you were unlikely to probably hear the nitty-gritty from your friends who had left the journalism profession and gotten into tech, you know, in, in some parts probably for self-preservation. They're like, "Yeah, it's great. Never looked back. Love it," right? Like, people don't necessarily tell you exactly how they're feeling.

[00:30:43] Dan Lyons: Well, and they did say it was an adjustment. One of them told me, like, "Dude, you'll never do this," 'cause even among, even among journalists, I was kind of obnoxious and- Although, you know, one of my friends who's the most obnoxious journalist I ever knew- ... has had a fantastic run, and I'm not [00:31:00] gonna say where because then he'll know- Because

[00:31:02] Maureen Wiley Clough: we don't wanna out this obnoxious

[00:31:03] Dan Lyons: journalist

[00:31:03] Dan Lyons: I mean, he's, he's as outspoken and as whatever as I am, I would say, and he's, he's done very, very well. He somehow managed to, to do it, you know? I, I actually think-

[00:31:15] Maureen Wiley Clough: That is Huh? Or is

[00:31:17] Dan Lyons: he still in journalism? No, he's still working in tech, tech company.

[00:31:19] Maureen Wiley Clough: Okay. Wow.

[00:31:20] Dan Lyons: He left, he left journalism a while ago. Like all my friends, everybody bailed out, you know?

[00:31:24] Dan Lyons: Even the ones who were at decent places. I, the, all the people from Forbes that I worked with are, they're all over the tech industry now. It's like they're all scattered to the winds, you know?

[00:31:34] Maureen Wiley Clough: Well, it's kinda booming, until recently, I guess. Booms and busts. Bubbles, right? Booms, busts and bubbles.

[00:31:39] Dan Lyons: Yeah, and then there was, there was a period where they were all hiring in-house journalists and they were gonna build their own newsrooms.

[00:31:47] Dan Lyons: That was a little fad for a while.

[00:31:49] Maureen Wiley Clough: Sounds like something Gavin Belson would do, and then, like, scrub the internet.

[00:31:53] Dan Lyons: Yeah, yeah. It, it is. Like, in fact, it would be something. Hooley would create their own newsroom- ... hire a bunch of, you know, journalists, like, [00:32:00] you know, washed up magazine guys, and make them cover their own industry, you know?

[00:32:05] Dan Lyons: But, and try to present it as, like, "This is, but we're neutral." Yeah. "We're not biased. This isn't sales. You know, we're not just selling stuff."

[00:32:12] Maureen Wiley Clough: So speaking of Gavin Belson and Hooley, tell us how you got the call to go work on HBO Silicon Valley. Which, by the way, I was able to call it work to re-watch it for the third time in anticipation- Really?

[00:32:27] Maureen Wiley Clough: of this interview. Yeah, so I've been- Oh, so

[00:32:28] Dan Lyons: you can, you can,

[00:32:29] Maureen Wiley Clough: you can- ... friends was like, "Dude, wait, why are you watching Silicon?" I'm like, "It's work. It's preparation."

[00:32:32] Dan Lyons: Yeah, it's research. It's preparation. Yeah, and you, you can expense that.

[00:32:36] Maureen Wiley Clough: Um- Yeah, my HBO, uh-

[00:32:38] Dan Lyons: Yeah ... yeah. That month, anyway. I, I had done this back in the Forbes days and into Newsweek.

[00:32:43] Dan Lyons: I had this blog called, uh, Fake Steve Jobs, or a character called Fake Steve Jobs, and I wrote a blog, and I pretended to be Steve Jobs, and- ... it was, it was really funny. And I was anonymous for a long time, so there was a big... Which I knew was good marketing, like everybody would wanna know- Amazing ... there'd be a whole thing about like, who is this?

[00:32:59] Dan Lyons: Who is this masked [00:33:00] man? Yeah. And then I'd probably get caught, and then, uh, I- I published a book, like a, a fake novel. First person novel by fake Steve Jobs.

[00:33:10] Maureen Wiley Clough: I've gotta read that.

[00:33:12] Dan Lyons: It's pretty crazy. It's called Options. It's, you know, it's not a good book. Oh. It got... But, and I kind of thought like, "Oh, this is gonna get savaged."

[00:33:18] Dan Lyons: I think one review came out and it was like so brutal, I thought, I, I thought maybe we should cancel the book. Oh, the pre-publication, like one of those places like, oh, I forget what they're called. But the little pre-pub ones, they're all a little bit earnest, and they didn't like it. Or no, there was some Some tech reporter wrote a, a bad review, and I was like, "Ah."

[00:33:39] Dan Lyons: I called my wife. I was like, "Shit, I mean, it's gonna... This is gonna be bad for me." And then, uh, but then others came out and they were like, "Oh, this is like Jonathan Swift and Voltaire and stuff." And I was like, "Oh, okay, I'll take that," you know? And then like NPR, they... I was on, I was on... What's the show with Kai Ryssdal?

[00:33:56] Dan Lyons: Is that Marketplace? Yeah, so- I- ... suddenly it got all this, so it got all [00:34:00] this good attention. I mean, it didn't sell very well, but... And then it got attention h- in Hollywood, and the guy who made Bruno and Borat, like, he read it and he... I got teamed up with him by a production company and we developed it as a show, and we sold it to Epix, and then it lingered for a while and languished, and then it, they s- they said, "We're not gonna make it."

[00:34:20] Maureen Wiley Clough: Oh, man.

[00:34:21] Dan Lyons: Then, and we had pitched to HBO, and HBO turned us down. Showtime had, had made an offer, too. We should've gone with them. Anyway- Wow ... so, 'cause there was a lot of appetite. All the meetings we had, you could tell, they had all been trying to find some way to tell a story about Silicon Valley. They're all aware of it, you know, up north.

[00:34:39] Maureen Wiley Clough: Yeah.

[00:34:39] Dan Lyons: There's this stuff going on, but how do we get our teeth into it? Oh, sure. Yeah. So then Mike Judge sold Silicon Valley to HBO, and the agent who sold it was my agent at WME. And, uh, so I wrote to him. I was like, "Hey, dude, you know, like, if they ever need writers and stuff, like, can you, you know, get me in on that?"

[00:34:59] Dan Lyons: And he's like, [00:35:00] "Yeah, we'll see," you know? And I totally forgot about it, and I went to work at that startup and, you know, was going along. And then one day out of the blue, like, I got a call from WME from the guy who had been the assistant to my agent the last time I talked to them, and now he'd become an agent.

[00:35:18] Dan Lyons: And he was like, "Yeah, so look, HBO guy, uh, the guys on that show wanna... If they get renewed, would you come work on season two?" I said, "Yeah, sure." And yeah, so that was it. Basically, because my scripts had been floating around out there and, and I guess H- well, oh, no, co- 'cause the guy I partnered with, Larry Charles, does a lot of stuff at, at HBO.

[00:35:40] Dan Lyons: He works on Curb Your Enthusiasm stuff. So- Mm ... so Larry was out there with these scripts floating around of mine, and I think showed them to those guys. Anyway, that's how, that's how it happened. Yeah. Yeah. So

[00:35:52] Maureen Wiley Clough: when it happened, were you like, "Okay, this is it. This is my ticket out of here. Like, I'm gonna have this writing career in Hollywood"?

[00:35:58] Maureen Wiley Clough: Yeah. What, what was that [00:36:00] like?

[00:36:00] Dan Lyons: Yeah. Again, super naive and stupid on my part. But I was... Yeah, really, really. I was, like, ready to move again. Yeah. My wife's like, "We're not moving to Los Angeles." LA life. Yeah, yeah. I was all, "This is it- Living the dream ... my big break." And you know, and then I, I had meetings with, with my agents, and they were like, "Yeah, if, look, this is such a good credit, if, if you, if you wanna move here, we can keep you working forever.

[00:36:24] Dan Lyons: You make like-" Mm. They quoted some numbers. I was like, "Ooh, that sounds good," you know? And, and one, one guy, they, they, they said a number and, and then, like, the, he and the other guy, he said to the other guy, "Look at his face," 'cause I was like- ... you know? They were like, "Oh," you know? And- Overpaid

[00:36:40] Maureen Wiley Clough: on there, Dan ...

[00:36:41] Dan Lyons: I was like, "Wow, really?"

[00:36:42] Dan Lyons: And, uh, but then, you know, I did the one season. I actually didn't get hired back. The guy, he basically didn't hire back, the entire room got let go.

[00:36:52] Maureen Wiley Clough: Oh.

[00:36:52] Dan Lyons: Um, which is, I think, he- that showrunner was his deal. Some shows hire you and then you're in. Other shows just bump the [00:37:00] whole room, and-

[00:37:01] Maureen Wiley Clough: Interesting. Yeah Why would

[00:37:01] Dan Lyons: they do that?

[00:37:02] Maureen Wiley Clough: Is it a negotiation tactic, or-

[00:37:04] Dan Lyons: No, I think it's like, it, well, the guy, the showrunner of that show really began his career at, um, Seinfeld. Mm. Seinfeld always did this. Larry David would hire a bunch of people in, suck 'em dry for a season, get all the ideas out of them, and then, "Boo, let's get a bunch of fresh- Mm

[00:37:17] Dan Lyons: people in with new ideas." Sounds like tech. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. For now. Yeah. It was really, um, it was very much like a startup, a TV show. Mm. But then I didn't get hired back, and I was kinda pissed. Ev- all of us were. And

[00:37:30] Maureen Wiley Clough: then- After season three you didn't get hired back?

[00:37:32] Dan Lyons: That was after s- I did season two, didn't get hired back.

[00:37:35] Dan Lyons: Right. But then when the writing season for season three began, they got stuck, and they didn't wanna call me. Like, the showrunner was too proud, so they had one of the producers, who was, like, Mike Judge's manager whenever, call me out of the blue. And meanwhile, I was working on Disrupted, the book, because I had been- Wow

[00:37:52] Dan Lyons: I'd gone through that whole fiasco with the startup. That had ended. I sold the book. And he called up me, he's like, "Yeah, uh, you know, you think you would come out maybe [00:38:00] and work the... Would that be okay?" Like, they knew, like- Mm ... you're probably pissed or whatever. And so, uh, so I said, yeah, I'll do that. I'll, you know, whatever.

[00:38:07] Dan Lyons: And-

[00:38:07] Maureen Wiley Clough: So Disrupted sort of solidified your place in the writer's room?

[00:38:10] Dan Lyons: No, 'cause that hadn't even come out yet. That was just a manuscript. Oh, wow, got it. They didn't know anything about it. And I was, you know, I was always kinda peripheral to... There's, like, 12 people in that show writing, you know? And no one person, well, there were a couple people at the top who did all the talking, you know?

[00:38:26] Dan Lyons: Got it. But, like- It was- ... otherwise, the rest of us were all very small contributors, you know? Huh. Yeah. It was, it's, it's a weird, it's a weird job, and it's not, actually not a great job, to be honest. Right. I know these strike, right, the people are all on strike fighting for this. Yeah, good point. It's been reduced to- It's like you s- you, you know, do you know the guy, what's his name?

[00:38:44] Dan Lyons: Joel Stein. He used to write the back page of Time Magazine every week He wrote like, like these humor columns. Maybe it was every other, but he... When I got, somehow when I got to LA the first year, someone I knew knew him [00:39:00] and said, "Oh, he, he'll... Go, s- I'll introduce you. You know, talk to him about..." 'Cause he had done some TV writing.

[00:39:05] Dan Lyons: And, and I'm all like, "Yeah, this is great. You write for TV. It's so cool, right?" It does sound- And we had breakfast. Yeah, it does, right? Yeah. We had breakfast, and he's like, "Look, I hate to break it for you." Like, 'cause I'm like, "How come you're not doing it anymore?" He's like, "'Cause honestly, it kind of sucks."

[00:39:21] Dan Lyons: And I was like, "Why?" 'Cause he's like, he's like, "Well, you're in the same room around a conference table with the same people every day for, say, 14 weeks, and it's like the longest business meeting of your life."

[00:39:33] Maureen Wiley Clough: Oh. "

[00:39:33] Dan Lyons: They bring in..." And he said, like, he said, I... His, his metaphor was you're in a first class... You have a first class seat on a plane, and they bring you great food, but the plane never lands.

[00:39:44] Dan Lyons: You just keep flying and flying and flying around. You know what I mean? And he said, "It's just, it's... If you're used to writing journalism or even books, you know, you write and there's a thing and you have it. It's very ephemeral, TV. It's very much like you're just [00:40:00] talking, you know?" Yeah. And if it's not your show...

[00:40:02] Dan Lyons: If you're the show creator, and then you have some... Sorry, then you have some creative control. But otherwise, yeah, you're just-

[00:40:13] Maureen Wiley Clough: But I imagine, I imagine you, you were quite valuable to them in that you had experience in the startup world, right? Like, you could bring things that actually happened or close enough to your work and help inform the direction of their show.

[00:40:29] Dan Lyons: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's, that was very true. Yeah, that, that, and the fake Steve stuff. It was

[00:40:34] Maureen Wiley Clough: like a documentary. What? It was like a documentary in some cases.

[00:40:36] Dan Lyons: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It very much is. And but the, the, all the, the Hooli stuff was really not in the original pilot of that show.

[00:40:42] Maureen Wiley Clough: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:42] Dan Lyons: And it was just, it was just about the guys.

[00:40:45] Dan Lyons: And then when they, they went and reshot the pilot because HBO was gonna kill the show, and they added all this Hooli stuff. And the Hooli stuff, I think, was largely drawn on the stuff I was writing, 'cause my show was about a guy like Steve Jobs or Gavin Belson. [00:41:00] My guy had a guru.

[00:41:01] Maureen Wiley Clough: Yeah.

[00:41:01] Dan Lyons: You know, he, he was kind of the whole thing,

[00:41:04] Maureen Wiley Clough: you know?

[00:41:04] Maureen Wiley Clough: Was his name Denpok? I, I love that

[00:41:06] Dan Lyons: guy. Yeah. It was Denpok. So good. And, and so they sort of created a character, you know, and a, and a company over there that was more similar to what I had done. And, and yeah, I, I was good for plot, like figuring out what would happen next, what would happen next, what would happen next.

[00:41:25] Dan Lyons: I was not so good on comedy, even though I thought, "Oh, I'm really funny." My, my fake Steve blog was so funny, but then in the room with these guys, I realized like, no, they're... There's different levels of funny.

[00:41:36] Maureen Wiley Clough: I mean, those guys are, I mean, and you, comedic geniuses. I mean, that show makes me laugh out loud so much, and there's so many just small nuanced points.

[00:41:46] Maureen Wiley Clough: Like for example, the character that got very little airtime, but Jan the Man, the Jan the Man person in sales, I was like, "That is freaking hilarious." The woman who would always say, "Hi, I'm Jan. I'm Jan, they call me Jan the Man" before she said [00:42:00] anything. It's just like, that's so brilliant 'cause we do have to bro down or we're gonna go down, in the words of Ehrlich, right?

[00:42:06] Maureen Wiley Clough: That's-

[00:42:06] Dan Lyons: Oh, that's a... Yeah, yeah. I, I don't know. It's... And the other thing about that show is that, you know, we'd write it all, then they'd do a table read, and they rewrite it, whatever. Finally get it to the point and they'd shoot it, but then they would then tell all the actors, "Let's do all these scenes over, but, like, improvise."

[00:42:22] Dan Lyons: And most of the good stuff in that show wasn't from the writers, it was from the actors. They were all, it was all, the really good stuff was improvised. The framework and the outline, the, the... Well, even then, in the, in the editing room, they would cut things up. Like, I would leave and like there was episode one, two, three, four, five, six.

[00:42:38] Dan Lyons: And then episode five would now, when it aired, would have like, oh, things from three, but then this other thing from six. They would mix it all up. But, but yeah, the, the biggest revelation to me was this really those funny actors who are really good improv guys. Yeah.

[00:42:52] Maureen Wiley Clough: I mean, that show was just, it was exceptional, so, um- It was

[00:42:55] Dan Lyons: funny, yeah.

[00:42:56] Maureen Wiley Clough: It was so hysterical. Notably less [00:43:00] hysterical though was a follow-up work that you did to Disrupted. So Disrupted

[00:43:04] Dan Lyons: had me- That's a polite way of saying it's boring and depressing.

[00:43:07] Maureen Wiley Clough: Well, well, I, I find it to be a very important work as do countless other reviewers. Yeah? Okay. Um, basically you excoriate the tech industry in your follow-up book from Disrupted.

[00:43:17] Maureen Wiley Clough: Disrupted does like, it does the beginning job of it and you get exposed to things that are really pernicious and, and awful.

[00:43:25] Dan Lyons: Yeah, yeah.

[00:43:27] Maureen Wiley Clough: But Lab Rats like crystallizes it all with data and facts and really lays bare some of what has made work suck so much, right? Yeah. So-

[00:43:35] Dan Lyons: Right ...

[00:43:36] Maureen Wiley Clough: tell me, tell me about getting through Disrupted, which by the way was a, an international bestseller, a New York Times bestseller, right?

[00:43:42] Maureen Wiley Clough: Like super popular. So that obviously struck a chor- chord with people. It was a revelation into the tech industry which is, you know, the object of much fascination. But then you followed it up with this really, let's call it a sobering read, Dan. Like it was-

[00:43:57] Dan Lyons: Yeah, that's very polite of you.

[00:43:58] Maureen Wiley Clough: Thank you ... it was really good.

[00:43:59] Maureen Wiley Clough: It [00:44:00] was really good. Mm. But it was not as funny because it was so depressing.

[00:44:04] Dan Lyons: Yeah. And I think I should have leaned more on funny- ... and a funny, and, and a story rather than... Yeah. And it, and actually that book I, the, the book original proposal and the pitch was meant to be funny and started getting more serious as I was working on it because I just went into journalist mode.

[00:44:21] Dan Lyons: But, um, yeah, in a nutshell it was like, okay, here's this funny stuff that happened in Disrupted and I observed it all. Then the next book was why is that happening? Why do companies treat employees this way? And I traced it back to a business model, and then why does that business model exist? And ended up tracing it back to, you know, decades of, of things getting worse and worse.

[00:44:46] Dan Lyons: But which is why it's a sobering book. It didn't do very well, that book. It came out the week of the 2018 midterms when Trump was president

[00:44:56] Maureen Wiley Clough: Mm. Nobody

[00:44:56] Dan Lyons: was buying books There's nobody-- Yeah, nobody was buying any books that week, [00:45:00] you know? Yeah. And I can't blame it on that really. But- ... um, it just, you know, didn't, um...

[00:45:07] Maureen Wiley Clough: Timing does matter though, I'm sure. But-

[00:45:09] Dan Lyons: Yeah, I think it does, but it was also-- Yeah, it was-- I think it was a good book. Like I, I'm, I'm proud- It was ... of what's in it, but it's not a fun read, like you say, and you know.

[00:45:18] Maureen Wiley Clough: It was-- Honestly, Dan, I was reading it and I thought, "Do I really wanna contribute to this industry?

[00:45:23] Maureen Wiley Clough: Am I-" Mm-hmm. And then, then the way in which it's bled out into other industries and informed the way all industry practices- Yeah, yeah ... now it's like, well shit, it's unavoidable, right? Like I'm kind of screwed. Damned if I do, damned if I don't, was kind of the overarching theme and thesis at the end of the day for me.

[00:45:40] Maureen Wiley Clough: So I was like, "Okay. Well, tech might be this way, but then so is everything else now. I guess we're all screwed. We're all in it together," right?

[00:45:47] Dan Lyons: I tried to end with a ray of hope in saying like I found a bunch of companies that had good cultures, and then, then I was-- And the idea was like, okay, if you wanna be like one of those, here's what they do.

[00:45:56] Dan Lyons: I sort of studied-- I looked at the list of-- Fortune magazine [00:46:00] does a list of the Best places to work, you know, top places to work

[00:46:04] Maureen Wiley Clough: Isn't that pay to play?

[00:46:06] Dan Lyons: Is it? I don't know. Or hope not.

[00:46:08] Maureen Wiley Clough: I think everything is. Anyway, continue. Give me the way

[00:46:10] Dan Lyons: of thinking. And, and, and then over the years, over the t- 'cause it's, it's conducted by this company independent of Fortune.

[00:46:17] Dan Lyons: But over the years there were like, I think, 12 companies that had made the list every year for 20 years, something like that. So then I, I, so I reached out to the company that did the research and talked to some of these people and, and to find out like, okay, so what do all these companies have in common?

[00:46:32] Dan Lyons: Like, what, what lessons could you extract from these places that then you could copy? And so I, I tried to extract some lessons from that. And oddly enough it was, you know, odd- you know, not surprisingly, like places where people are happier, places that treat people well in certain ways. But it wasn't...

[00:46:49] Dan Lyons: That's the interesting thing. It wasn't beanbag chairs and beer and game rooms and ping pong tables. You know, it really wasn't. It was continuing education, [00:47:00] career advancement, mentorship, good paternity and maternity leave, paid time off. It was all stuff that people really... Childcare. Childcare is a huge one.

[00:47:09] Maureen Wiley Clough: Oh, God. Childcare.

[00:47:10] Dan Lyons: Like... Yeah. Yes. Like, you know. And, um, and then that made me realize, well, yeah, but all that stuff's expensive and ping pong and beer is really cheap.

[00:47:18] Maureen Wiley Clough: Cheap. You

[00:47:18] Dan Lyons: know

[00:47:19] Maureen Wiley Clough: what I mean? And it attracts a different kind of person.

[00:47:21] Dan Lyons: Right. And then you check out- Yep ... 'cause you turn whatever and you decide, you know, you're gonna go have a grownup life.

[00:47:27] Dan Lyons: Now you care about childcare. Exactly. You care about a 401.

[00:47:31] Maureen Wiley Clough: Yep.

[00:47:31] Dan Lyons: You know, you care about health benefits.

[00:47:33] Maureen Wiley Clough: The things that were sexy to you when you were young are not the same things that are sexy to you when you are old.

[00:47:38] Dan Lyons: Yeah. Like, I never played ping pong at that startup. I was onl- there almost two years, I never played ping pong.

[00:47:44] Dan Lyons: Never played pool, video games. I don't think I ever played any of the games.

[00:47:48] Maureen Wiley Clough: Did you go to the candy wall?

[00:47:50] Dan Lyons: I did a couple times, but you know, it's like, you know, I, I can't really eat a lot of candy.

[00:47:55] Maureen Wiley Clough: You know? That's the other thing. It's like, well, we're gonna put on weight at our- Yeah ... at our advanced age if we just eat up.[00:48:00]

[00:48:00] Dan Lyons: Yeah. It's like, yeah, I, I'll have diabetes if I work here. Yeah. Don't let's- You know, I can't, I can't really hit the candy wall ...

[00:48:05] Maureen Wiley Clough: let's add to burnout, let's not get diabetes while

[00:48:07] Dan Lyons: we're at it. Yeah. It's like, look at me, man. You think I, I can't eat candy. But, but it was, you know, it was, it was, yeah, it was cool.

[00:48:13] Dan Lyons: But, and I always add this sort of asterisk that Most people there were really having a great time. Like, a lot of people there were having a really, really great time and have fantastic memories. And then there were some people who would get chewed up, and like, you didn't fit. Yeah. You'd get, you know-

[00:48:31] Maureen Wiley Clough: Culture fit, right?

[00:48:33] Dan Lyons: Yeah, culture fit. And, and I ended up, after my book came out, all these people came out of the woodwork to tell me their stories at the same place. Oh. And they were crazy, insane stories. And that's what l- yeah, so that led me to write Lab Rats, 'cause I, I realized also there was a new kind of suffering at work that wasn't, you know, oh, the, the work is so hard, the hours are long, or my boss is a jerk.

[00:48:56] Dan Lyons: It was more like this psychological, uh, [00:49:00] suffering, and people left these places with their self-esteem in tatters. Um- Yeah. That's terrible ... they were really destroyed, yeah. Like, they really left feeling like, "I am really no good. I thought I was good, but I'm not good." And over and over, I heard people tell me that.

[00:49:14] Dan Lyons: It was very sad.

[00:49:16] Maureen Wiley Clough: And that's right. I, I just am recalling in your book that you had one such experience where you had a really extremely toxic boss who tried to make your life hell in an attempt to make you flee the company, which ultimately it did. But yeah. I mean, this happens everywhere. It's so relatable.

[00:49:31] Dan Lyons: Yeah, it was a weird experience 'cause I had heard of that tactic. Like, it didn't happen in journalism. People very rarely got fired, uh-

[00:49:39] Maureen Wiley Clough: Who graduated, right?

[00:49:40] Dan Lyons: Yeah, they call it graduated, and they were all happy for you, and they'd put out an email, "Oh, you know, so-and-so graduated. We can't wait to see what they're gonna do next," you know?

[00:49:48] Dan Lyons: And when they'd say that, you know they didn't have anything next, which meant they were fired, right? Oh, no. 'Cause if y- you know, someone's, if, if someone left, they, for a job, they'd be like, "Well, he's got a job at Google," and everyone's so happy for him. But this was just like, "Can't wait to [00:50:00] see..." Oh. And you would get fired, you would graduate, like you get Wednesday night at the, or Wednesday at the end of the day or whatever.

[00:50:09] Dan Lyons: They just tell you, "Don't come tomorrow."

[00:50:11] Maureen Wiley Clough: Oh, boy.

[00:50:12] Dan Lyons: Like, it's just done. Bye. Like out of the blue. People get kneecapped all the time.

[00:50:16] Maureen Wiley Clough: And it's a lot. And it's like psychological safety in that kind of an environment when it could be like your name any day, right? Like, your head.

[00:50:22] Dan Lyons: Right? And then, and then it's like you see it happening all the time, and then you're the survivors, right?

[00:50:27] Dan Lyons: And you're kind of like, "Oh, God, yeah." Mm-hmm. It creates this feel like it, it could happen to any of us. Yes. And, um... But it, I think some people didn't feel that because they felt so much part of like the in group.

[00:50:40] Maureen Wiley Clough: Yes.

[00:50:41] Dan Lyons: Like, you didn't really have to be good. You just had to be-

[00:50:43] Maureen Wiley Clough: That's right. There was something, you called it something in the book.

[00:50:46] Maureen Wiley Clough: It was like the boss... It was basically like failing up. Like, when you get in early enough at a tech company, you can continually be promoted into, into roles you should have no access to whatsoever, and I think it was something that s- maybe Steve [00:51:00] Jobs coined it. I-

[00:51:00] Dan Lyons: Yeah ... the bo- The bozo explosion.

[00:51:02] Maureen Wiley Clough: Oh, b- that's it.

[00:51:03] Maureen Wiley Clough: Yes, the bozo explosion. And so you're surrounded by these people where you're like, "Him? He has that job?" Like, what? Like, how, right? And that I've seen over and over again in my career, too.

[00:51:14] Dan Lyons: Have you, like, where people-

[00:51:16] Maureen Wiley Clough: Oh, yeah ...

[00:51:16] Dan Lyons: if you're popular. If it's like high school, but like you're popular- Oh, yes ... and so everybody likes you.

[00:51:21] Maureen Wiley Clough: 100%. That is-

[00:51:23] Dan Lyons: Yeah? ...

[00:51:23] Maureen Wiley Clough: that is very much in play, for sure.

[00:51:26] Dan Lyons: Really?

[00:51:26] Maureen Wiley Clough: Mm-hmm.

[00:51:27] Dan Lyons: You've experienced that?

[00:51:28] Maureen Wiley Clough: Absolutely.

[00:51:29] Dan Lyons: Did you ever feel like you were the it girl? Outside one?

[00:51:32] Maureen Wiley Clough: Uh, sadly, I, well, yes, always. I was never the bozo getting up the, up the rungs of the ladder, unfortunately. I would've loved to be. I'm like, "Hey, if, if this is how it goes, if you fail up, like, pick me.

[00:51:44] Maureen Wiley Clough: Why not me? I'm, I'm in. I'm ready. I'll maybe even do well and continue going up for you." But yeah, no, I, I saw it at pretty much everywhere.

[00:51:52] Dan Lyons: A lot of it seemed to have to do with enthusiasm, you know?

[00:51:55] Maureen Wiley Clough: Oh, God, yes.

[00:51:56] Dan Lyons: Yeah.

[00:51:56] Maureen Wiley Clough: Yeah. Which, by the way, we aren't, we aren't suggested to [00:52:00] have as much of that as we get older, right?

[00:52:02] Maureen Wiley Clough: I actually had someone interview me recently and ask me, like, "How do you s- how do you keep your energy up? How, how, you know, how do you stay energetic?" And I was like, "Wait, I'm not sure if this is a coded way of saying you are old, or, like, if you're actually thinking I'm low energy or something." It was very awkward, but I can only imagine it's gonna get 10 times worse as I get older.

[00:52:24] Dan Lyons: You say Adderall, you know?

[00:52:25] Maureen Wiley Clough: Yeah, yeah,

[00:52:27] Dan Lyons: yeah. You say, "Adderall. How do you do it? I don't know. That's what I do. Start every day with vitamin A." That's so crazy. You know? Yeah, tell them that.

[00:52:34] Maureen Wiley Clough: And so you do that. Well, thank- So there's a shortage, Dan. There's a shortage. I can't get the meds I actually need.

[00:52:39] Dan Lyons: And you didn't...

[00:52:39] Dan Lyons: Oh, that's right, I heard those meds are in short, short supply. Yeah. And then you didn't get that job, or you haven't heard yet, or what?

[00:52:45] Maureen Wiley Clough: Oh, no, no, no. I, that was actually a job that I'd held in the past. But I remember during the interview process, that question was asked of me, and I was like, "Mm." And, and the guy who asked it was older than I am, eh, by a lot, and I was like, "What's this?

[00:52:57] Maureen Wiley Clough: I don't know." Yeah, maybe it was [00:53:00] because I'd mentioned I had kids, which, by the way, I don't advise a lot of people to do unless it's somehow coming up on the interviewer's part and you're creating rapport. Otherwise, I'm like, it only seeks to, to hurt me as a woman, so. As a man, they're probably, "Oh, the promotion, you're a dad.

[00:53:15] Maureen Wiley Clough: You're such a good dad. You got your wife at home, right? She's, she's taking the kids, right?" You know, there's just- Yeah, yeah ... that still in play very much.

[00:53:22] Dan Lyons: Have you seen, that video went viral recently on like TikTok

[00:53:29] Maureen Wiley Clough: with this UPS driver talking about

[00:53:29] Dan Lyons: his wife. He, he was- No. It's, it's a twist where he starts off by saying, "You know, I don't help my wife with the cooking.

[00:53:36] Dan Lyons: I don't help with the cleaning. I don't help raise the kids." And he's thinking, okay, this. And then he turns around, he says, "Because those are my jobs. Like, I do those things too. I'm not helping her. Like, I'm a man," and like, "This is like- Wow ... stop getting over this idea- Awesome ... that you help your wife with that stuff.

[00:53:52] Dan Lyons: Like no, step up." Right.

[00:53:54] Maureen Wiley Clough: First class.

[00:53:54] Dan Lyons: It, yeah, it was pretty cool. But yeah, I think, well, there are also, I heard stories of women [00:54:00] getting pregnant and then suddenly, you know, oh, there's some performance problem, and you're gone. You know?

[00:54:05] Maureen Wiley Clough: It's interesting how that occurs in relation to, yeah, in proximity to the pregnancy.

[00:54:10] Dan Lyons: Mm-hmm. But I think there are other companies that are really great, that really- Yeah ... uh, really, uh, treat people really well. That's the backstory of hope. Was... Yeah. Well, you know, I... Yeah. And it's, it is, it does come down to the culture, and I think the culture starts with the founders and-

[00:54:24] Maureen Wiley Clough: Yeah ...

[00:54:25] Dan Lyons: and I've noticed that in other...

[00:54:27] Dan Lyons: I don't know if you ever have. Like, are your kids in school?

[00:54:31] Maureen Wiley Clough: Yes.

[00:54:31] Dan Lyons: I forget how old they are. Like six and eight, are your kids? Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:54:34] Maureen Wiley Clough: My kids are in school. Elementary.

[00:54:35] Dan Lyons: So yeah. Elementary's a little too early. My kids went, went to a, a private middle school and transferred there, and they had this culture, you know?

[00:54:47] Dan Lyons: And it was like, it was really good, and it was just... I, I really admired the culture of the school, and I k- would... was wondering, how do they do this? Because, you know, it's every year it's a new group of kids. But I realized a lot of it had to do with the [00:55:00] headmaster who would come in- Yeah, yeah ... and would set this example of, of what, you know, how we operate and what we do.

[00:55:07] Dan Lyons: And, um, yeah, I think a lot of it... Culture is fascinating to me, but I think a lot of it stems from leadership and from people People who are leaders who are walking the walk, so to speak- Yeah ... who are, who are acting, you know, setting an example. But-

[00:55:23] Maureen Wiley Clough: So you

[00:55:24] Dan Lyons: still- But you're young to feel, like, old about the workplace-

[00:55:26] Dan Lyons: I think, aren't you? I mean, you know.

[00:55:28] Maureen Wiley Clough: I'm, I'm 40, 41 next week.

[00:55:30] Dan Lyons: But- Wow, you're so brave to say that.

[00:55:32] Maureen Wiley Clough: Yeah. I, listen, I'm trying to change things, right? Like, we should all be proud of our age.

[00:55:36] Dan Lyons: You're 41 next week?

[00:55:37] Maureen Wiley Clough: 41 next week.

[00:55:39] Dan Lyons: Oh, happy birthday.

[00:55:40] Maureen Wiley Clough: Thank you.

[00:55:40] Dan Lyons: What day is it? October what?

[00:55:42] Maureen Wiley Clough: Uh, the 24th.

[00:55:44] Dan Lyons: Okay. Uh-

[00:55:46] Maureen Wiley Clough: Big horoscope guy over there?

[00:55:47] Dan Lyons: What's that? Are

[00:55:48] Maureen Wiley Clough: you a big horoscope guy?

[00:55:50] Dan Lyons: No, I, I was wondering, I don't know. What, what, what horoscope is that?

[00:55:53] Maureen Wiley Clough: Um, I'm a, I thought that's where you were gonna go with this, but I'm a- No,

[00:55:55] Dan Lyons: I don't know those things ...

[00:55:56] Maureen Wiley Clough: I'm a Casper. I'm a Libra and a Scorpio, both. So [00:56:00]

[00:56:01] Dan Lyons: we are both. I know j- I know just enough of that to know that, like, you should avoid Scorpios at all costs.

[00:56:08] Dan Lyons: Oh. Right? Right? Isn't that, isn't that the case? I, I- Maybe a

[00:56:12] Maureen Wiley Clough: little bit young for

[00:56:12] Dan Lyons: that ... I dated, I, I more than dated, I was madly in love with a Lib- with a woman who was a Scorpio when I was young

[00:56:18] Maureen Wiley Clough: Yeah

[00:56:19] Dan Lyons: She was, uh- I

[00:56:19] Maureen Wiley Clough: guess you dodged a bullet. What can I say?

[00:56:21] Dan Lyons: You know, we're still friends. We talk all the time.

[00:56:23] Dan Lyons: We had one of those, like, crazy toxic relationships- Oh ... that's also, but also, like, ugh. And-

[00:56:29] Maureen Wiley Clough: Yeah ... yeah.

[00:56:30] Dan Lyons: Yeah.

[00:56:31] Maureen Wiley Clough: No, probably good that that one ended. See, I'm- You think? Yeah ... I'm also a Libra. I identify as a Libra, so I-I- What is it? What are Libras

[00:56:37] Dan Lyons: like?

[00:56:38] Maureen Wiley Clough: Libras are the water sign, so we're very loving and open and kind, et cetera.

[00:56:42] Dan Lyons: Oh.

[00:56:43] Maureen Wiley Clough: Yeah.

[00:56:44] Dan Lyons: You know the one that freaks me out more than the horoscope stuff, and it came... I don't know how old this stuff is, is the what's your love language?

[00:56:51] Maureen Wiley Clough: Oh, wow. Do you

[00:56:52] Dan Lyons: know that stuff?

[00:56:53] Maureen Wiley Clough: I read that book forever ago. You

[00:56:54] Dan Lyons: did?

[00:56:55] Dan Lyons: Yeah. Ah.

[00:56:56] Maureen Wiley Clough: Ha. I don't know. I'm not quoting from it. I was like, I think I like all of [00:57:00] these things. It was like- ... which one, which ones you let go? It's like, "You like gifts. Do you like words of affirmation? Do you like physical contact?" I was like- Yeah ... all of them?

[00:57:08] Dan Lyons: Check, check, check. Like Yeah, yeah, I'll take all of that.

[00:57:10] Dan Lyons: I'll take it all. That all sounds good. Yeah. I, I, I for a while, I don't know, it must have been a f- it was a... That's an old thing, right? I remember meeting people or talking to people, they'd be like, "Oh, have you heard about love language?" I go, "What's your love language?" I go, "Ah." You know?

[00:57:24] Maureen Wiley Clough: Uh- Now it's a nice quiz to get your email, right?

[00:57:26] Maureen Wiley Clough: It's like, find out which, you know, variety of coffee- Oh ... mug you are or something, you know.

[00:57:31] Dan Lyons: Yeah. Yeah, I don't, I don't know. But my son and I just started watching this, this documentary last night. It's a series about this, I guess it was a cult called Twin Flames. Have you heard of this?

[00:57:42] Maureen Wiley Clough: Oh my God. I've, I've heard of the concept of twin flames.

[00:57:45] Maureen Wiley Clough: Tell me more. I, I'm-

[00:57:46] Dan Lyons: Oh ...

[00:57:47] Maureen Wiley Clough: I, I guess I'm gonna get sucked in, though. The, I, oh boy, maybe you should- My,

[00:57:50] Dan Lyons: my son's taking a course in, uh, college, freshman year, about cults. And, uh-

[00:57:56] Maureen Wiley Clough: Fascinating ...

[00:57:57] Dan Lyons: yeah. And then somehow he's [00:58:00] home 'cause he's sick, and, uh, we were buzzing through the channels last night, and I saw something about twin flames, 'cause he and I kind of like cult things or, you know, weird, like, unexplained mysteries, kind of UFO things.

[00:58:13] Dan Lyons: You know, we watch all those things 'cause they're just crazy, you know?

[00:58:16] Maureen Wiley Clough: Funny you mention

[00:58:17] Dan Lyons: that. Lately- And he's like, "Oh, Dad, yeah, I've heard of twin flames. You gotta watch this." So we checked it out, and it was, like, this couple, right? And- They had this idea, the twin flame idea, is that everybody out there has someone who is not like your soulmate, it's even more than a soulmate.

[00:58:32] Dan Lyons: It's like you're half of it and they're the other half, and you just have to find each other, and it's like divinely inspired. And so it began- Well, that's, you know ... as kind of like this self, it became like self-help run by this couple, only they became almost like cult leaders- Yeah ... and they got very culty.

[00:58:48] Maureen Wiley Clough: Multimillionaires, I'm sure.

[00:58:50] Dan Lyons: Yeah, they made a fortune. Of course. And I only watched the first episode last night, so I'm dying to see where it goes, but I love that concept too, that you have a twin flame. And it [00:59:00] was like all these p- e- just in the first episode, you start to see where it's going wrong, where people are like, "Well, you know this guy, I really like him.

[00:59:08] Dan Lyons: He comes into the store, but, you know, I haven't talked to him yet, but I'm pretty sure he's my twin flame." They're like, they're like, "He is your twin flame. You have to take action," right? But then they would be like, "This guy, this guy blocked me on Facebook." And, and they're like, "You have to go to his house.

[00:59:23] Dan Lyons: Knock on his door-" What? "... 'cause you love him, and you know it." That's stalking. "And he loves you. He loves you. He just needs you to act." So they had, they turned people into stalkers.

[00:59:32] Maureen Wiley Clough: That is horrendous. It's

[00:59:32] Dan Lyons: so funny. That's awful. It's great, man. It's great. Wow. I don't

[00:59:35] Maureen Wiley Clough: know why

[00:59:36] Dan Lyons: we're talking about this, but anyway.

[00:59:37] Maureen Wiley Clough: Well, uh- You're gonna

[00:59:37] Dan Lyons: edit all this out, right?

[00:59:39] Maureen Wiley Clough: I'm looking-- I think everyone's looking for their twin flame employer version. So-

[00:59:44] Dan Lyons: Wow, look at how you brought that back. Did you

[00:59:46] Maureen Wiley Clough: like that? You

[00:59:46] Dan Lyons: are good. Yes.

[00:59:48] Maureen Wiley Clough: Threading the needle. So-

[00:59:50] Dan Lyons: Yeah ...

[00:59:51] Maureen Wiley Clough: you've learned a lot about the tech industry through living in it, working first at that company that shall go unnamed unless you go purchase the book, Disrupt It, which everyone should go do, obviously.[01:00:00]

[01:00:00] Maureen Wiley Clough: But after that, you, you continued your work in the tech industry. You also got to parody it on the fantastic show, HBO's Silicon Valley, which is hysterical. And if people on the sh- people listening to the show haven't watched that, that's like, I mean, come on, guys. Let's, let's go. But then you got into the sobering analysis of Silicon Valley and the tech industry at large with Lab Rats.

[01:00:22] Maureen Wiley Clough: And now you are working at DocuSign, which I would imagine has to be somewhat of a twin flame for you because you are there, and you've been there a while, and you seem happy. So tell us, as you've gotten older, as you've gotten more experience, what, 10 plus years in the tech industry, what should people be looking out for to find their twin flame employer?

[01:00:42] Dan Lyons: Wow. That is such a good question, and we should start A twin flame cult around employing. Like, like basically headhunting, recruiting Yes.

[01:00:54] Maureen Wiley Clough: Twin

[01:00:54] Dan Lyons: flame

[01:00:55] Maureen Wiley Clough: employ- I love

[01:00:55] Dan Lyons: it ... right? Because that was the premise of the cult- Twin flame ... was we'll help you find, we're gonna help you find your twin [01:01:00] flame. But I would say-

[01:01:02] Maureen Wiley Clough: The business has been born here today, Dan.

[01:01:03] Maureen Wiley Clough: We started it, our little

[01:01:05] Dan Lyons: startup We don't, this, we should rec- well, we are recording this, so we'll know- Yeah. Perfect ... the origin story of this.

[01:01:09] Maureen Wiley Clough: Yeah, exactly. And we-

[01:01:10] Dan Lyons: Uh, we'd probably do better finding jobs for other people than-

[01:01:14] Maureen Wiley Clough: How about for us?

[01:01:15] Dan Lyons: Yeah, yeah. Right. We should both get... I love my job. I love- Yeah

[01:01:19] Dan Lyons: where I work, and I c- for the first time since I think I was at Newsweek, like, I wake up every day and just, like, psyched to... I, I work at home, but like, psyched to go to work. I am, I just, yeah- Yes. That's good ... I somehow got really lucky, and DocuSign has this amazing culture. It's one of the things that no o- and it's, like, 20 years old, so it's not a startup, and it's, uh, that culture has baked in, that it's, that peop- people always say, everyone who works there will say, "What's the, what do you like best?"

[01:01:47] Dan Lyons: It's like, "I, I love the people. I just, I work with great people." And right now the company's in this period of transition. They, the entire... Right after I joined, the entire leadership team basically turned [01:02:00] over. So it's almost like a whole new company, or it's a new team with a new vision for this very cool established company.

[01:02:07] Dan Lyons: Like, how are we gonna build this next act for the company? So if you're, if you like that, some people I think wanna be in a place that's, it's all, you just, you fit in and do the role 'cause someone else used to have this job and now you have it. Or yeah, or you can, in a role, i- in this place, you know, there's a little bit of, not chaos, but there's a lot of change.

[01:02:27] Dan Lyons: And if you see that as an opportunity, which I do, then it's a great place to be. But yeah, it's like Honestly, it's really, really fun, and I get to do stuff that's a lot like journalism. And yeah, so it's, it's crazy. It kind of, that's my twin flame. And, uh,

[01:02:42] Maureen Wiley Clough: and- Dr.

[01:02:42] Dan Lyons: Simon

[01:02:43] Maureen Wiley Clough: Dan Lyons

[01:02:44] Dan Lyons: It kind of is. And not, not every...

[01:02:45] Dan Lyons: You know, there's, there's people of all ages, and, uh, uh, and-

[01:02:50] Maureen Wiley Clough: Are you guys hiring? Huh? You guys hiring? Just, just saying.

[01:02:54] Dan Lyons: They might be. We'll talk. We'll talk out- Yeah. I, I, I'm probably- Just put that out there. But, you know, they, they really honestly, [01:03:00] like I've met... We had a m- meet and greet in Boston for whoever wanted to come, go out for drinks, and like they're all, you know, people in sales.

[01:03:07] Dan Lyons: And so nobody, nobody's in comms. Like, I'm in communications, but it's a very small group. But these, even these people are all great. I was like, "I wanna hang out with you guys all the time." Aw. Like, they're just-

[01:03:16] Maureen Wiley Clough: That's awesome.

[01:03:16] Dan Lyons: They've all been around a bit, you know? Yeah. They're kind of veterans. And yeah.

[01:03:20] Dan Lyons: Anyway, so it's, yeah. That's great. It's my twin flame job. But how would you go about finding a twin flame job? I guess first you'd have to know

[01:03:26] Maureen Wiley Clough: what- Well, let's give some people some hope, because you know what? We're all getting older every passing minute, right? And most of us can't, you know, be independently wealthy, so we kind of need to have jobs as well.

[01:03:35] Dan Lyons: I wish

[01:03:36] Maureen Wiley Clough: I could

[01:03:36] Dan Lyons: be.

[01:03:36] Maureen Wiley Clough: So like show us the way, Dan. Like give us some hope.

[01:03:40] Dan Lyons: Well, don't you think... I think first of all, so the big thing about twin flames, I... We- ... we're gonna beat this metaphor to death, but it is commitment, right? Yeah. And it's like you don't have a twin flame that you're gonna be twin flames for 18 months, right?

[01:03:53] Dan Lyons: And then you're gonna go find the next twin flame, right? And so I think, I'm not sure if, you know, employment for [01:04:00] life, well, we're never going back to that. And I'm not even sure that was great, but that's like my dad's generation. My dad worked at one company his whole career, retired, pension, blah, blah, blah.

[01:04:07] Dan Lyons: But I do think, and it ties back to that like best places to work thing, when an employer conveys that there's a commitment to stay with you and to help you grow and to provide you with things that make your life good, uh, it brings out the best in people, and it creates, like you said, mentioned, psychological safety, that sense of, "No, you belong here."

[01:04:31] Dan Lyons: And I think, you know, that would be I think that would be... E- even in interpersonal relationship, you'd need that to be called a twin flame. Like, what do they call it? Harmonious twin flame union. They have, like, all these terms. But, like, yeah, and that's... But, like, basically it has to come down to people on both sides have to be like, "You know, I'm gonna commit to you, the company.

[01:04:53] Dan Lyons: I'm gonna really, you know, do a lot." And the company says, "Yeah, good, and we're gonna commit to you," right? So I mean, I always wondered, like, the thing at that [01:05:00] startup was, like, "We want you to be completely devoted to us. We want you to wear swag every day to work." The company color was orange, so people would buy orange sneakers and orange watches and orange this.

[01:05:10] Dan Lyons: And, but, but we, we don't have any commitment to you. Right. Like, you should have-

[01:05:15] Maureen Wiley Clough: It was very disjointed and, you know-

[01:05:17] Dan Lyons: Yeah ... labeled

[01:05:18] Maureen Wiley Clough: poorly. Yeah.

[01:05:19] Dan Lyons: But, uh, and I think, yeah, twin flame employers. That's a really good idea, man. Like, I'm really kind of stuck with that now. I think I'm gonna have a hard time getting that out of my head.

[01:05:28] Dan Lyons: Awesome. That was a great idea, seriously.

[01:05:31] Maureen Wiley Clough: What can I say? It, it is

[01:05:32] Dan Lyons: what it

[01:05:32] Maureen Wiley Clough: was. What can I

[01:05:32] Dan Lyons: say? You're like, "Hey, it's what I do." That's what I do. "I, I come up with great ideas." I'm

[01:05:36] Maureen Wiley Clough: an idea person. I'm creative. What the heck?

[01:05:37] Dan Lyons: I'm gonna have, like, five more before this day is over. That's just not even one of the good ones.

[01:05:42] Dan Lyons: But-

[01:05:42] Maureen Wiley Clough: I'm all about innovation and disrupting, okay? Like-

[01:05:46] Dan Lyons: Right. Yeah,

[01:05:47] Maureen Wiley Clough: yeah ... going fast and breaking things, Dan.

[01:05:49] Dan Lyons: That's what I'm for. You like to foster collaboration and optimize- All of ... performance.

[01:05:52] Maureen Wiley Clough: All of those

[01:05:53] Dan Lyons: things. Uh, I was reading somebody's, uh, LinkedIn bio. That's another story. But, but yeah- Oh, wow ... you know what?

[01:05:58] Dan Lyons: That, that is, that is a good [01:06:00] metaphor though. I mean, people kind of have to find... 'Cause here's the other thing. We what? Well, th- there's another fit that says, like, if it is a place where you're gonna bounce in for 18 months, two years- Yeah ... there's a lot of people who wanna do that, too.

[01:06:11] Maureen Wiley Clough: It's like a

[01:06:11] Dan Lyons: tour.

[01:06:11] Dan Lyons: And so that's their twin flame, right?

[01:06:13] Maureen Wiley Clough: Yeah. And you know what? Like, I will say, in defense of people who do that, one of the best things about... A- and I unintentionally did that. I mean, it was not the

[01:06:23] Dan Lyons: plan at all. It wasn't your choice.

[01:06:24] Maureen Wiley Clough: Not my choice necessarily. Yeah. In some cases it was. The more recent ones, not so much.

[01:06:29] Maureen Wiley Clough: The-- We will not get into the reasons I've-

[01:06:32] Dan Lyons: Okay ...

[01:06:32] Maureen Wiley Clough: of leaving certain places, and why one such company will literally never go on my resume 'cause I'm so horrified by what went down at this company.

[01:06:39] Dan Lyons: Really?

[01:06:40] Maureen Wiley Clough: Oh, dude. Oh,

[01:06:40] Dan Lyons: man.

[01:06:41] Maureen Wiley Clough: The things I could tell you. I'm gonna put it in a book. I'm ... It's, it's so bad.

[01:06:44] Maureen Wiley Clough: Horrendous. Absolutely awful. Wow.

[01:06:46] Dan Lyons: Okay.

[01:06:46] Maureen Wiley Clough: Um, yeah, like, y- so bad you'd need to see the receipts to believe it. Like, crazy. In 2023, crazy, crazy shit still happens. Like, Emily Chang's book Brotopia, still happening.

[01:06:57] Dan Lyons: Oh, I believe that. Yeah. But,

[01:06:58] Maureen Wiley Clough: like, what I can [01:07:00] say about having moved around is I've amassed this amazing network of awesome friends and people- Mm-hmm

[01:07:07] Maureen Wiley Clough: that I could call tomorrow and just pick right back up where we left off. Yeah,

[01:07:11] Dan Lyons: yeah.

[01:07:11] Maureen Wiley Clough: And so from that perspective, it's been great, and it's been broadening my horizons and, you know, and my network. Yeah. I'm not thinking of it in, like, a transactional way, but, like, I have all of these friends. And actually, when you're looking for your twin flame employer, what you should be doing is actually connecting with people from your network.

[01:07:27] Maureen Wiley Clough: So by virtue of having jumped around a bit, you have a bigger laid land, right? I have a little bit more of a shot there. But, you know, I'm just looking for a home, Dan. I'm looking for the right place, um, or no place at all, and doing this thing and somehow making it work. But it's, um ... You know, I think people, a lot of people don't prefer the concept of having to, you know, have these tours of duty, basically gig working in a- Yeah

[01:07:52] Maureen Wiley Clough: white collar setting. Like, not, not many people are super pumped about that. So if you haven't seen the Super Pumped about Uber, watch- I

[01:07:59] Dan Lyons: haven't seen that [01:08:00] show. Is it good? Oh,

[01:08:01] Maureen Wiley Clough: it's so good, but it makes you-

[01:08:02] Dan Lyons: Really?

[01:08:03] Maureen Wiley Clough: It's kinda like- Yeah ... lab rats, you know? It just makes you wanna- Yeah ... just ugh-

[01:08:07] Dan Lyons: Dystopian ...

[01:08:08] Maureen Wiley Clough: F out, you know?

[01:08:09] Dan Lyons: Is it on HBO? I'll find it. I don't know where it is. I think it's on

[01:08:12] Maureen Wiley Clough: Showtime.

[01:08:12] Dan Lyons: Showtime, okay.

[01:08:13] Maureen Wiley Clough: Yeah.

[01:08:14] Dan Lyons: Um-

[01:08:14] Maureen Wiley Clough: But it's really

[01:08:14] Dan Lyons: good. Yeah? Oh, okay. 'Cause I thought that show didn't do very well. I don't ... It kind of- I think

[01:08:18] Maureen Wiley Clough: it didn't, but I loved it.

[01:08:20] Dan Lyons: Yeah? It was just- I'm gonna, I'm gonna go watch it now ...

[01:08:22] Maureen Wiley Clough: he was a crush of mine back in the day, so.

[01:08:24] Dan Lyons: Who, Travis?

[01:08:25] Maureen Wiley Clough: Yeah. Not, not Travis Kalanick. Did not like him. But the actor, Joseph Gordon-Levitt. He was-

[01:08:30] Dan Lyons: Oh. Oh, yeah. He plays, he plays the Travis... It, it's all done, like, it's, the character is called Travis

[01:08:39] Maureen Wiley Clough: Kalinic or Kalinic It's actually about Uber, yeah.

[01:08:40] Dan Lyons: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Joseph Gordon-Levitt's a cool guy. He's an interesting actor, isn't he?

[01:08:43] Dan Lyons: Yeah, he's- Do

[01:08:43] Maureen Wiley Clough: you know him?

[01:08:44] Dan Lyons: No, no, no, but I mean, I know who he is.

[01:08:46] Maureen Wiley Clough: I was gonna say, like, can you hook it up for me if my husband and I wanna meet him? Yeah.

[01:08:49] Dan Lyons: Oddly enough, I, I did meet him once, but it's like-

[01:08:51] Maureen Wiley Clough: You... Okay ...

[01:08:52] Dan Lyons: it was at a big conference, and I was one of the little speakers, and then- ... he was the big-name guy that they have for...

[01:08:58] Dan Lyons: 'Cause, you know, he's really into [01:09:00] tech. You know, he has a startup and stuff.

[01:09:01] Maureen Wiley Clough: And, uh-

[01:09:01] Dan Lyons: I didn't know about that.

[01:09:02] Maureen Wiley Clough: That's

[01:09:03] Dan Lyons: funny ... yeah, yeah, yeah. He's very tech-savvy. I'll have to remember him. Wow. And so he was, he was, like, the big famous speaker that was gonna be there, and the rest of us were all little schlubs.

[01:09:10] Dan Lyons: And- ... the CEO who ran the company was like, "Well, part of the perk is you're gonna, we're gonna have a VIP meet and greet with-"

[01:09:15] Maureen Wiley Clough: Rob Elvis, the famous-

[01:09:17] Dan Lyons: So you all get to shake hands and go like, "Hey, uh, really like your, uh, really like your work. Go, yeah." Like, what do you say, right? What do you say? Like, just, "I've seen you on TV," you know?

[01:09:26] Dan Lyons: Like, yeah, I don't know what to say. But yeah. But yeah. But then I started paying attention to him. I think he's a good actor, and he, he- Yeah ... gets interesting roles.

[01:09:33] Maureen Wiley Clough: Yeah.

[01:09:34] Dan Lyons: You know? Yeah. Yeah,

[01:09:35] Maureen Wiley Clough: I would say. But he was great in that

[01:09:36] Dan Lyons: film. So he was your love. He was your crush. He was your twin flame.

[01:09:39] Maureen Wiley Clough: I mean, out of any of them, a, a real full circle moment for me was watching, uh, Casper.

[01:09:44] Maureen Wiley Clough: Do you remember that f- that flick, Casper the Friendly Ghost? Um, there was- It was

[01:09:48] Dan Lyons: about Casper the Friendly Ghost?

[01:09:50] Maureen Wiley Clough: There was a, a film back in- Yeah ... I mean, I guess it must've been the '90s. I didn't know that. But I watched it with my children, and at the end, and you probably don't know who this is, but [01:10:00] for any of the geriatric millennials listening to this show, you may, especially if you're female, know who this is.

[01:10:04] Maureen Wiley Clough: But at the end of Casper, Casper the ghost becomes a boy, and the boy who portrays Casper in this is none other than the crush for every single girl in the '90s, Devon Sawa. And I don't know what Devon Sawa's doing now, but he was ugh back in the '90s. And my own daughter saw Devon Sawa on screen and later said, "Mommy, I have a crush on that guy."

[01:10:30] Maureen Wiley Clough: And I was like, "This is too much. This is too much." Really? Full... Yeah. Mm-hmm. So-

[01:10:35] Dan Lyons: I don't know who that is, but-

[01:10:37] Maureen Wiley Clough: It's okay, Dan. It's okay. All right. So anyway. But,

[01:10:40] Dan Lyons: all

[01:10:40] Maureen Wiley Clough: right. So maybe he was my long-lost twin flame. Who knows? But, um- Could

[01:10:43] Dan Lyons: be ...

[01:10:44] Maureen Wiley Clough: he could be. But I think what I wanna leave people with is the hope, the ray of hope that you ended Lab Rats with and that you're ending this interview with, which is there is a place for you in the tech industry.

[01:10:57] Maureen Wiley Clough: No matter how old we get, even if our hair [01:11:00] turns gray, like, you can find your twin flame employer and have a great career. I mean, you literally used the word psyched to describe how you feel getting up and going to work. For me, that is inconceivable. So I'm just really thrilled that that is possible. So thank you for, for making me aware that it's really

[01:11:18] Maureen Wiley Clough: Maybe it's me, Dan. Maybe I am doing something like-

[01:11:21] Dan Lyons: Well, you know, get some counseling or-

[01:11:24] Maureen Wiley Clough: Yeah.

[01:11:24] Dan Lyons: No. No, the thing of it is it's hard. Like, you know, yeah, it's- I don't know. Yeah. I think I got lucky. Just got really, really lucky in this. I- Mm ... uh, 'cause I stumbled into it, but, uh, then I, yeah, I got really, really

[01:11:37] Maureen Wiley Clough: lucky.

[01:11:37] Maureen Wiley Clough: You went through it first, Dan. I mean, you, you did have some trauma right? Yeah. So I'm glad you arrived.

[01:11:42] Dan Lyons: And, and to be honest, maybe part of the reason, like, that I think this is going well or is it, I learned a lot in- about, uh, mistakes about myself. Like, that, that's the other thing about that book is sort of making fun of tech, but it's also really making fun of myself.

[01:11:55] Maureen Wiley Clough: It's

[01:11:56] Dan Lyons: very self-deprecating. Like, I did a lot of stupid stuff. Like, I had a lot of... Yeah, I- [01:12:00] We all do. Yeah, I know. But, like, so I learned a lot, I think, and made a lot of mistakes, but...

[01:12:06] Maureen Wiley Clough: Yeah. I mean, that's part of growing up, right? And, uh- We're

[01:12:09] Dan Lyons: gonna get you a job. We're gonna get you a job,

[01:12:12] Maureen Wiley Clough: right? That sounds great.

[01:12:12] Maureen Wiley Clough: I mean, I, I'm, I'm also hoping it might just be this and somehow it'll work out. But thank you.

[01:12:15] Dan Lyons: Podcasting?

[01:12:17] Maureen Wiley Clough: Pod- Yeah ... I mean, apparently there's tons of money in podcasting. Just ask Joe Rogan. I'm, I'm sure that's just next for me. I

[01:12:22] Dan Lyons: know, right? It's easy. Um- I thought... I think it would be... Yeah, some people really make a killing at it.

[01:12:29] Maureen Wiley Clough: Some people. I think it's, like, the .0001% of people. Kind of like the people who get rich at tech startups with their options. It's, like, the .0001. But anyway, um, no, we will, we will figure out the good places in tech. Actually, that's one of the missions of this emphasis and, and this podcast itself is to highlight employers who are great and do employ people for a long, wonderful, fulfilling career and, you know, provide opportunities for growth even if you happen to be, you know, over 40.[01:13:00]

[01:13:00] Maureen Wiley Clough: So we'll wanna highlight that. So, you know, DocuSign is getting a nice little call-out here for being just that. But, you know, the other thing is you mentioned you've learned a lot over the course of your tech career, and you've, you've done some things right, you've done some things wrong, you've landed where you have, and, you know, I think all of that somewhat sounds like it culminated in your latest book, Shut the F Up.

[01:13:21] Maureen Wiley Clough: Sorry, Mom. But it's, it's a book all about the, the fact that we, we talk too much sometimes, and, and I love that I'm discussing this on a podcast. But I think when we next have you back, Dan, I think we should talk to you- We should talk about that ... the, the, the lessons that you can learn from that particular book and how to apply them to your tech career to, to have a longer and better, more fulfilling career in this industry.

[01:13:42] Maureen Wiley Clough: So that'll be nice. Yeah,

[01:13:43] Dan Lyons: I'd like that. It does apply to work and to personal life. Yeah. But yeah, yeah, that'd be great. For

[01:13:48] Maureen Wiley Clough: sure. For sure. Well, I think you have, uh, shared so much wonderful stuff with us today, and I'm so appreciative that you came on the show. Like I said, this was, like, a big, a big win for me.

[01:13:59] Maureen Wiley Clough: I've, I've always [01:14:00] admired your work, and, uh, really, really thrilled to have you here, so thank you for joining.

[01:14:04] Dan Lyons: Oh, thank you for having me. I appreciate it. It's fun to talk about this stuff with you. Yeah.

[01:14:11] Maureen Wiley Clough: Thanks for joining us today at It Gets Late Early. I hope this episode was insightful and entertaining.

[01:14:17] Maureen Wiley Clough: Now, before you go, if you're old and work in tech, just like me, I have something really cool for you. We're putting together a job board specifically for seasoned tech workers, where we'll curate the best opportunities for experienced tech talent. If you want a place to look for work where you can trust there won't be so much bias in the hiring process, go to itgetslateearly.com and sign up so you'll be the first to know when we launch it.

[01:14:39] Maureen Wiley Clough: Thanks, and see you next time