Bots Gone Wild

In this episode, Joel and JT break down the seismic shifts rocking the industry, from a massive restructuring wave hitting giants like Meta, Disney, and Snap to the high-profile leadership exits at JobCase and SeekOut.

With over 80,000 tech layoffs already this year, we explore why VCs are now hunting for distressed assets and how companies are desperately pivoting toward AI to survive.

We also dive into how Gen Z is navigating this "Darwinian" job market by ditching traditional networking for startup hustles, skilled trades, and a surprising return to "analog culture."

The conversation takes a futuristic turn as we examine the rise of the machines—from Russia’s robot-led battlefield losses to China’s marathon-running humanoids and the expansion of Tesla’s RoboTaxis.

Finally, we look at the "Art Washing" of LinkedIn, where stars like Grimes and top NFL prospects are trading stages and stadiums for B2B brand deals and AI tech ventures.

Whether it's the death of the traditional music industry or the birth of low-casualty robot warfare, this episode covers the rapid evolution of how we work, fight, and build brands.

J.T. & Joel

PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION

Joel Cheesman (00:28.973)

yeah. Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody wang Chung tonight. Hey kids, it's the chat and cheese podcast. I'm your co host Joel ceasefire extension cheeseman.

JT ODonnell (00:42.654)

I am JT, it's almost deck season, O'Donnell.

Joel Cheesman (00:46.413)

this episode of HR's most dangerous podcast, Gen Z adapts robots attack and LinkedIn art washes. What the hell is that? Let's do this.

Joel Cheesman (01:00.855)

Deck season in New England, what could sound more charming than that? Little lobst on the deck, little lake swimming, night swimming, what's going on?

JT ODonnell (01:03.18)

know it. You know it, right? We're about to...

JT ODonnell (01:11.072)

Mussels, steamers, corn on the cob, lobsters, steaks on the grill, sunsets at 8pm, like we live for this shite. We do, it's here, it's here, it's weird.

Joel Cheesman (01:17.389)

Hmm.

Joel Cheesman (01:22.569)

Is it the stick season is over, right? Stick season.

JT ODonnell (01:25.774)

We're almost there. Yeah, you still have those moments. Who am I kidding? There'll probably be one more Flurry, but you know, but we're at the place now where you're wearing shorts, even though you probably shouldn't be, because it just, you know, you're like, it's warm enough. I'm wearing them. You nailed it, nailed it. Exactly. With a parka, but it's okay. You know, with the down on, but yeah, shorts. So I'm here for it though.

Joel Cheesman (01:31.798)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (01:36.449)

yeah, yeah, yeah, a lot of white guys in cargo shorts, I'm guessing, right?

Joel Cheesman (01:47.807)

Yeah, I saw social influencer took a picture of cargo shorts and I think a coups a PBR koozie and said spring is here. Middle Age white guy. What's your favorite season in New England?

JT ODonnell (02:02.808)

Fall, actually. The colors are spectacular. It's great golf weather. You know, it's lovely.

Joel Cheesman (02:03.968)

Okay.

Joel Cheesman (02:08.449)

They're real and they're spectacular in New England. Well, Chad and I were just in Phoenix this week, talk about a change of scenery from the Midwest. I left rainy and 50, I think, to go to 88 and sunny. That was fun. Shout out real quick to the Paradox folks cheating us real nicely again, as usual. Phoenix is always fun to go out there and see what's going on. A lot of changes since the workday thing, but they are at least...

JT ODonnell (02:14.606)

Hot!

JT ODonnell (02:35.31)

Mm.

Joel Cheesman (02:36.865)

I can report that they are letting them be paradox for the most part. It was not a work day focused event. It felt very paradoxics, very paradoxical. don't know how you would, how you would frame that. But anyway, it's good to see it. You're at your, the guns out. So the sun is out in new England. They're at JT's place. I don't know. You want to do some shout outs or what? Okay. Let's, yeah, let's, let's get the sound bite here real quick.

JT ODonnell (02:54.125)

It is.

JT ODonnell (02:59.31)

I do. Let's go. Let's go. Let's go. You want me to go first?

Joel Cheesman (03:05.612)

Yeah, go ahead, give it to us.

JT ODonnell (03:07.534)

So my shout out is to Gen Xers learning to code with Claude, me being one of them. And I finally bit the bullet, carved out some serious time, got myself on Claude cowork, had a pretty nasty project to figure out and just have to say to everybody out there, if I can do it, you can do it. And it changes so significantly how you think about AI.

Joel Cheesman (03:24.246)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (03:34.487)

I I thought I was using AI. use a lot of AI tools, day to day. The ability to code, it changes the whole way. And we've talked so much about the divide that's being created. It's not the have and have nots. It's the learning it, not learning it. And that divide's getting bigger. These people are going to make bank. They're highly sought after. There's so much job opportunity out there right now for people that get AI at a higher level beyond the surface versus the people that are waiting around for someone to teach them.

Joel Cheesman (03:49.058)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (03:56.545)

Yeah.

JT ODonnell (04:02.542)

All I can say is lean in Gen Xers. We learned to do everything ourself. We just had to figure it out. You will figure it out.

Joel Cheesman (04:07.693)

If we can program the VHS machine, we can figure out vibe coding, right? So I'm curious, because I'm exploring this as well. Did you look at lovable and like, did you shop around to the different, because there a lot of competitors, right, in this space. Replet.

JT ODonnell (04:16.619)

Exactly.

JT ODonnell (04:24.462)

Ironically.

Yeah, so I actually went to, yep, I've used Replet. I've vibe coded with Replet. Cloud Cowork is a different level. I couldn't do on Replet what I built on Cloud Cowork and I was advised by some friends of the show. So shout out to Josh and Ben Gaffney, the founders of McCoy, the mobile app. And also shout out to Josh Gample and crew over at, and the reason I say that is,

Joel Cheesman (04:34.465)

Mm-hmm. Okay.

Joel Cheesman (04:42.677)

huh.

Joel Cheesman (04:51.775)

Okay.

JT ODonnell (04:55.758)

They both, I independently set calls with them and said, here's what I'm trying to make happen. What do you think? And independently both were like, you need to cloud cowork, cloud cowork. So thank you so much because a little bit of a rough start to begin with. And what you learn very quickly is you have to, the better you get at prompting it, the better the results you get. And when you're planning an intricate project, like I did, you really need to tell it everything all the way through your site. Like, what are you trying to do every step of the way?

Joel Cheesman (05:08.289)

Okay.

Joel Cheesman (05:22.37)

Yeah.

JT ODonnell (05:24.012)

And what happened the first time around is I hadn't done that that thoroughly. And then we got far along and it broke and that was on me because I hadn't guided it, had a real back. But once you understand it and figure it out, and once you build something, you can literally say to it, okay, remember what we did over here? I want you to take these five pieces from it. And then I want you to build this over here. So your coding abilities to build other things gets faster and faster and faster. It's insane. And it saved my company hundreds of thousands of dollars. mean, hundreds of thousands.

Joel Cheesman (05:43.488)

Okay.

Joel Cheesman (05:52.365)

Can you talk about how sort of complex the app was that you built or was it a pretty simple app? Okay.

JT ODonnell (05:58.255)

No, it's pretty complex. So you know, we've been working for three years on a tool that analyzes you to understand how recruiters need to see you and find you on LinkedIn. So we've built a tool where manually you could have given me your resume, your LinkedIn profile, some job descriptions that you're a match for. And this tool that we built analyzes it and produces a very detailed report about your positioning in the current market, words you're supposed to be using, and then literally what the next 20 things should be on LinkedIn that you post in order to feed the algorithm.

and we've been testing it works like a dream, but it cried a lot of manual steps, right? Getting the email, downloading the documents, putting it in, reproducing it, putting in a PDF, sending it, tagging them in your payment system. It does all of it now. All of it. Yeah, very cool.

Joel Cheesman (06:42.825)

Awesome. Awesome. Well, good for you.

All right. My shout out is easy. my shout out goes out to, to, Trump nominee, Keith Sonderling. Keith is a friend of the show. He's a bestie. I think he's been on four or five times, regardless of your politics. it's, it's, he's a great guy. It's fantastic to see friends and people who deserve it, get, get into higher places than they started. And, he is now in case you didn't know the acting or the, the, the last

JT ODonnell (06:54.094)

Mmm.

Joel Cheesman (07:18.363)

labor secretary, Lori Chavez, Doremer, step down. If you've been following any of it, she's been, she's been in some shit and, Keith is now the acting, guess, interim, US secretary of labor. Cal she right now has him as the favorite to become the official, secretary of labor at 23%. Glenn Yonkin, who was a governor of, Virginia is apparently on that list as well. So he's got some tough competition to keep the job.

JT ODonnell (07:24.398)

They have, uh-huh.

JT ODonnell (07:39.502)

Nice.

Joel Cheesman (07:47.745)

But my money is, my money literally is on, Sonderling to get that position. So for whatever that's worth, I texted him, after I found out and his reply was quote from Chad and cheese to the cabinet. so, so I'm really super happy for him. And I know he's going to do a great job. Shout out to our friend, Keith Sonderling for his recent success there in the, in the cabinet. That's interesting and exciting.

JT ODonnell (08:07.788)

Yeah. Congrats. Congrats.

Joel Cheesman (08:16.181)

All right, shall we get to free stuff if you have no commentary about that? wonder what our friend Stephen McGrath is up to these days.

JT ODonnell (08:25.208)

There he is.

JT ODonnell (09:35.18)

He never gets old. Very cool. Never gets old.

Joel Cheesman (09:35.309)

Very cool, never gets old. I'm excited, I do a mini marathon every year, little known fact about me. it's...

JT ODonnell (09:45.263)

Wait, wait, wait, back, roll it back. Define mini marathon? How is anything about 26 miles mini?

Joel Cheesman (09:51.757)

Well, it's a half marathon. Some call it mini, some call it half. So it's a half marathon. it's 13.1 miles, which is still a long way. Uh, go ahead and go ahead and walk 13 miles and tell me how you feel after it. But my, my father, uh, was a marathoner back in the day. His marathon days are way over, but we used to get the family together. My sister and I, sometimes her daughters would participate, but we would do this. My stepmom would come down.

JT ODonnell (09:53.964)

Okay.

JT ODonnell (10:01.634)

It is.

Joel Cheesman (10:19.105)

And we would do this every year. was a reason to like, always know we're going to get together. We're going to like hang out, do this marathon thing. My dad doesn't do it anymore. My sister who's five years older, she doesn't do it anymore. my wife committed to it, got injured while she was training. So once again, I am the lone standard bearer for team Cheeseman, to do this mini marathon. That's beside the point. I'll be in Louisville.

which means I'll be near chicken cock and the speakeasy. So if you're with us last year in Louisville, hopefully I'll be able to walk and make it to the, the chicken cock speakeasy while I'm in Louisville so I can enjoy that. So that's, that's part of my travels that are coming up. We also have of course other travels that we do.

for the show. We were in Phoenix, as I mentioned, shout out to those guys. All the all the folks at paradox treated us really well this week, but we are headed to Chicago this next week from the 20th to the 30th. Recruiting resourcing leaders, rlx, the recfos kids, the rec fest kids are going to be out in Chicago to spend some time with them as well as Joe shaker, who travel or who sponsors our travel, by the way, shout out to shaker. love you guys. So I'll be in Chicago and then a week

month off in May and then June and July we start traveling again. Where are going, JT?

JT ODonnell (11:43.501)

Yeah, so mine's virtual though, but thank you for letting me shout it out. So the Harvard Business School on May 19th is hosting a virtual Leading with AI conference and I'm getting to speak at it. And it's about agency over anxiety and really how to approach it from a job search and career standpoint. I'm really excited about it. It's my Elwood's moment, as I mentioned before on the show, but they did give me a huge discount code. So if you're interested folks, DM me on LinkedIn. I can get you a big discount so that you can attend.

Really cool speaker. I don't know how I made the list. I'll be honest. Seriously, like the list is super impressive, but we're really going to be talking about this divide that we said and how to lean in and be on the front of it as opposed to the back of

Joel Cheesman (12:25.997)

An invite to slide into JT's DMs. What could be more fun than that, everybody? More fun than layoffs, am I right? All right, guys, before we get to topics real quick, layoffs this week. Meta, 8,000, roughly 10 % of their workforce. Snap, 1,000 or 16 % of their workforce. Disney, 1,000. UKG, 950 at 6%.

JT ODonnell (12:29.048)

There we go.

Please.

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (12:51.753)

Additionally, some, some high profile companies in our space that have new CEOs or they're lacking a CEO. Fred golf is out at job case. they had raised around $148 million and a new Gupta, is out at seek out. had raised $189 million. So not, not chump change at all. seek out already has a new CEO, some guy named Sean Thompson, who's not from the space and was apparently.

JT ODonnell (12:51.918)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (13:15.406)

Mm-mm.

Joel Cheesman (13:21.355)

living large in Montana till the VCs probably gave him more money than he could say no to, to come take the job. And in case you missed it, Tim Cook has announced his resignation at Apple JT, a lot of layoffs, a lot of changes and he takes.

JT ODonnell (13:38.798)

Yeah, I mean, we've been saying it, layouts are going to keep coming. They're just restructuring, restructuring, restructuring, figuring out what they want to hire back for and then leading with AI in the hiring back. I'm hearing that over and over. It's every executive teams mantra right now. So I think we can expect more of it. Rumor is Amazon's about to drop some big numbers again as well. So, yeah, it's going to keep coming as we become more agile. I'm excited about some of the topics we're going to be discussing because I'm the, I'm the light at the end of the tunnel.

Joel Cheesman (13:51.298)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (14:07.757)

look for the opportunity, right? The bigger the disruption, the bigger the innovation. So we're going to be talking about that. I will tell you this. I personally would love to get my mitts on the job case CEO role only because I years ago met Fred and his team and the concept there was good. I think that it could have been executed differently. And I certainly weighed in on that. I was pretty honest about that. But

Joel Cheesman (14:09.869)

The silver lining. That's right.

Joel Cheesman (14:30.71)

Okay.

JT ODonnell (14:35.755)

there's assets there and I think whoever takes that over is sitting on something very, very prime right now in the way that we're gonna be engaging talent through connection as opposed to job boards. And so they might've been ahead of their time or maybe just ended up in the wrong place, I don't know, but dang, that's like, that's a, I know enough over there to be like, that's juicy. So I'll be interested to see who gets that job.

Joel Cheesman (15:00.695)

This is what you get on this show. get an application from JT to take over the job case gig.

JT ODonnell (15:08.363)

Absolutely.

Joel Cheesman (15:09.629)

Good for you. So if you're keeping track at home, that's more than 81,000 employees that have been laid off by 97 tech firms. Just this year, we're not even halfway done with the year. That's according to layoffs.fy. I've said for a while now, if you weren't in that group that got acquired, if your name isn't Paradox, Smart Recruiters, Bright Hire, et cetera, your future

JT ODonnell (15:36.641)

Yep.

Joel Cheesman (15:37.245)

is not as bright as it could be. There are the companies that launched before ChatGPT and the ones that launched after and JobCase and Seekout are firmly in that pre-camp. Certainly sad for us, Anoop, we love Anoop. Anoop was in our firing squad slash death match competition that he won. So he takes with him a large championship chain from Chat and Cheese as he exits.

the building at seek out. We also love Fred at job case, just a great guy. these are companies with a lot of money, high expectations. These investors don't want to wait around for their money. And clearly, the clock had run out on those guys, but, I suspect that we'll see more. I think if your name is eight fold, phenom, hi, Bob. Like if you've taken a lot of money,

The clock is ticking and I suspect we'll see more of these announcements, but yeah, it's tough to be a software business if your name is ServiceNow, Workday, Salesforce. It's gotta be really, really tough to be a software company in our space right now.

JT ODonnell (16:51.832)

So do you think that those larger companies are going to go shopping for deals and just wait till they're so hurting that they can get them for pennies on the dollar? Do think that investments will just dice them up and sell off what they can? Where are you seeing it go?

Joel Cheesman (17:07.029)

My guess is consolidation. just don't know the number of big hitter buyers, the SAPs, the Workdays, the ServiceNows, like Salesforce's, like that list is small. And with their stocks under pressure, they don't have a lot of wiggle room to go out and buy or make big swings with acquisitions. My guess is you'll see the ATS is consolidate.

You know, somebody by I Sims will buy employee will buy, you know, like these guys will start consolidating and you'll start seeing it in these, like everyone's all on juice boxes tip, but seek out is just juice box 10 years later. So I like, I, I am not bullish on that business at all.

JT ODonnell (17:51.703)

I predict that you're going to see several in this group just come out one day and say, we've rebranded and we're in a totally different industry. We do a totally different thing. This is our company name because I think you can start to look at some of the assets under the hood and realize they could be quite useful by building AI in a different space or pivoting in a different way. And I'd love to get under the hood of some of these firms and say, what else could we do with you right now? Because there is opportunity. Quit holding onto the sinking ship.

Joel Cheesman (18:05.965)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (18:21.078)

and let's just massively pivot you, let it go, you know?

Joel Cheesman (18:23.917)

And that seems to be the model now. I'm sure you're familiar with Allbirds, a shoe company. They're now an AI company and they sold the shoe company to another business to sell the shoes. So AI is the new.com. So to seek out AI, come out as a, I don't know, something totally different. Like it's not out of the realm of possibility. I think that's an interesting insight that these companies may just totally pivot away from employment and do something totally different. That's a great.

JT ODonnell (18:27.086)

Right, crazy, crazy story, crazy story.

JT ODonnell (18:49.484)

Why not?

Joel Cheesman (18:53.485)

That's a great insight. Which brings us to topics, JT.

JT ODonnell (18:58.136)

Topics.

Joel Cheesman (19:01.069)

All right, let's talk young people again, a topic that keeps coming up. This is from the Wall Street Journal, driven by a challenging job market and facing a 6 % year over year decline in entry level hiring. A growing number of college students are founding startups, leading to increased enrollment in entrepreneur programs and greater venture capital interest. This tracks with LinkedIn's new 2026 grad guide.

noting 44 % of Gen Z site-limited networking as their top barrier to entry-level roles, while 21 % are creating opportunities through side hustles. Additionally, 72 % of young office workers are considering a switch to skilled trades. JT, I'm gonna guess none of this is a shock to you, but we'd love your take.

JT ODonnell (19:47.663)

Yeah, it doesn't shock me at all. They have nothing to lose, right? There's no career track record that you're going to tumble back from. Every reason to start something on their own. They are very much driven by this ability to have autonomy in their life and live life on their own terms. Nobody's telling me to show up at 8 a.m. and staying till 5 p.m. I want to create that life. I want variety. They also have that.

ADD of life, you know, that they want to be doing different things throughout the day. It shouldn't surprise us at all. They also just love to hack things, like anything they can do better. It's murder. What I've noticed about the younger generation though, is they prefer to collaborate with each other. I'm not seeing enough of them want to talk to more seasoned individuals or older individuals. So the money is coming to them that, know, the.

Joel Cheesman (20:33.069)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (20:37.728)

VCs, private equity are having to find them, build relationships with them. That's very interesting because these young folks are guarded. They are distrustful of the older generations. They don't believe they have their best interests or they're tech savvy and they're just more comfortable with their own people. that to me gets interesting as we watch this blow up. I've always said this was going to come full circle, that we are all businesses of one. So I'm thrilled to see young people just embracing it. What better way to prepare

Joel Cheesman (20:44.013)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (20:56.077)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (21:07.02)

your young person to survive than to not expect them to rely on one employer with a set of golden handcuffs. And when they lose their job, they don't know what to do. So we're making these kids tougher. mean, I see Gen X in them. I'm here for it. You know, it's exciting to see them. I know it's hard, but it's exciting and they're leaning into it and they have nothing to lose. So shouldn't surprise us at all. But accessing them, that's going to get interesting.

Joel Cheesman (21:19.691)

Hahaha

Joel Cheesman (21:32.845)

So I quote Charles Darwin, kids who said, quote, it is not the strongest of the species that survives nor the most intelligent that survives. is the one that is most adaptive to change. This is what adaptation looks like. This is what survival of the fittest looks like. And if you are in college and you're not real optimistic about your future, you adapt. And I've said this on the show.

Generations today have more opportunities with the internet, with AI, with technology, with a global sort of resource to be successful on your own or build companies. So this is just what survival to me looks like. I think you're going to see people build companies. Now the challenge is they're going to learn that 90 % of companies die or don't become what they want. So that's going to be interesting.

JT ODonnell (22:28.194)

That's right.

Joel Cheesman (22:31.437)

The model of raising money is much different. I don't know how many of these will even be in a position to say, I should raise some money versus just I can, I can automate everything. I can be an army of one and create companies. So do you have just these really small niche, mom and pop in quotes, businesses that are focused to that. You have, you have something on your mind. Go ahead and say it.

JT ODonnell (22:52.098)

Yes, I do. do. We're already seeing a trend towards that. And I love that you brought that out. They would prefer not to take the money because they don't want to be beholden to anyone. And the idea of building a $10 million, $100 million business with two, three, four people, very appealing to them because it allows them to work with just a small, small core group. So again, that agility is what is driving them. think, like I said, the folks with the money.

Joel Cheesman (22:57.559)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (23:19.276)

are going to knock on the door and be shocked when they say, thank you. So you're going to have to build relationships with them to make the point, why should I take your cash?

Joel Cheesman (23:22.177)

Yep. Yep.

Joel Cheesman (23:27.169)

Yeah. The one, the one challenge I do see with them, additionally is they need to get off their phones to a certain level. When you talk about mistrust of older people, part of that is cause they're not connected to them on the D in the digital world. And, and I feel like one of the best advice is pieces of advice to a young person is like, get off your phone, go to a meetup, go to a something locally that you can start rubbing elbows with older people. Cause like it or not, they have money.

JT ODonnell (23:39.918)

Thanks.

Joel Cheesman (23:54.785)

They have other people that you can network with and they'll be a great resource for you. Don't just rely on the internet and digital meetups to grow your network. Agree? Disagree? Yeah.

JT ODonnell (24:03.854)

It's funny you say that. I know, I agree, here they're already doing it. Joel, they're listening to you. I can't believe it. The kids are listening to Joel. I just read an article this morning about the rise of the analog culture where they are intentionally building events where you have to put your phone away to go to it and wanting to experience because they now understand they have to do more than just a temporary digital detox. They actually have to engage in order to feel better.

Joel Cheesman (24:08.556)

You

Joel Cheesman (24:19.937)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (24:26.893)

Yeah.

JT ODonnell (24:29.144)

but they're realizing it on their own. We could have told them for how long, doesn't matter until they experience it. And this article is about how they're now doing that. And of course, making it big business, social meetups, this, that, you know, leave it to them. Again, I love this, I'm excited for them.

Joel Cheesman (24:38.253)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (24:43.809)

We had a great conversation in Phoenix this week about the future of conferences and part of them were like the business model sucks. And it's challenging because you don't have as many vendors exhibiting. You don't have as many buyers, but you have the desire to connect with other people. So somewhere in that conference universe, there's some mashup of what it is today and what it will be in the future. And I think.

if you're ERE, if you're Unleash, if you're Transform, or like you're trying to figure out what that is. I think RecFest has probably come the closest because it is a more social event with the learning. But I think conferences, to your point, know their value, but they have to like adapt and pivot to what people are really looking for. I also think it's interesting. We had conversations, we set up interviews at the event and we talked to Stanley Steamer and we talked to the Haircuttery.

If you don't know those businesses, one cleans carpets and one cuts hair. Those are not AI businesses, but, one of the commentaries from those companies was the number of high school students that are now interested in those opportunities and the number of like 20 somethings that have gone the white collar route and said, well, maybe not. are starting to explore opportunities that are face to face human businesses is increasing.

And with Stanley Steamer in particular, the number of managers that go from technician, cleaning carpets and grout and whatnot, and to managers, 73 % of their managers were once technicians. So they're really pushing this as a career change as opposed to like a job. So we're seeing it not only at the top, but at the blue collar level and the hourly type level.

JT ODonnell (26:30.816)

And you know, we said this on one of the previous shows, apprenticeships are going to be hot again. And that's literally what you just described. And it shouldn't surprise us. It's coming full circle. So it's great to see that for this generation, at least they're finding solutions, you know, because it's, this is a permanent shift. We're not going back to the whole world being nine to five anymore. We're just not.

Joel Cheesman (26:40.001)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (26:50.039)

Yep, yep, it is not the strongest or the most intelligent. It's the one most adaptable to change. Guys, we'll be right back. If you like what you've heard so far, give us a follow, give us a review. Check us out on YouTube at youtube.com slash at Chad Cheese.

JT ODonnell (26:57.11)

Amen.

Joel Cheesman (27:09.931)

Let's talk about some robots.

JT ODonnell (27:13.205)

Yeah, play a game.

Joel Cheesman (27:14.465)

Well, our soon to be overlords had a pretty good week. Ukraine achieved a milestone in warfare by capturing a Russian position using only ground robots and aerial drones, resulting in zero casualties and highlighting a shift toward unmanned combat systems. Back here in the US, Tesla has expanded its fully unsupervised robo taxi service to Dallas and Houston, two pretty big cities operating daily.

with limited geo fences in both cities. JT, robots, what you got?

JT ODonnell (27:51.055)

Okay, so I'm excited about the prospects when it comes to war. I to have something like that and know that no human lives were taken. Makes me feel better in that respect. you know, great. But immediately when I read about that, I thought about eventually, you know, two countries coming together, their leaders sitting over a board and it's just an electronic game. said, are we going full tilt? are they going to get in Pac-Man?

Joel Cheesman (27:57.279)

You

Joel Cheesman (28:11.831)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (28:16.31)

Remember the Pac-Man? I just bought one of these. The two seats on either side with the 80s games. We're literally going back to that is what went through my mind there. So, interesting. The robo taxis, I'm still not there. I think you know I was in a really bad car accident a couple years ago in an Uber. My Uber was hit from behind on the highway and thrown into a semi tractor. If I didn't have my seatbelt on, I would not be on the show with you. So everyone wear your seatbelts in an Uber and a Lyft.

Joel Cheesman (28:26.721)

Okay.

Joel Cheesman (28:36.663)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (28:43.362)

Yeah.

JT ODonnell (28:46.316)

but it just makes me that much more nervous and I know I'll need to get over it. It's almost like it's gonna have to all be there.

Joel Cheesman (28:50.347)

Now, do you blame that it was automate? Do you blame that it was an auto, whatever, driverless car on the accident? Okay, so.

JT ODonnell (28:57.15)

No, no, no, because I was in Houston before the driverless car. My point being is I would need to see everybody in driverless cars for me to feel like it's all going to work okay. I don't think it's great to have half human, half, I don't know, something about that just doesn't jive with me. Granted, it's probably, you know, PSTD, but I don't know. Something about, I'm not there yet.

Joel Cheesman (29:06.305)

Okay.

Joel Cheesman (29:12.897)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (29:19.509)

I mean, when you have a near-death experience, your life, your perspective changes, whether it's cancer, car wreck, or whatever. So I get that. I get that. So you're on the fence with the taxis. I get it. I get it.

JT ODonnell (29:24.526)

100%.

JT ODonnell (29:33.688)

Not there yet.

Joel Cheesman (29:34.701)

So I'll add that you might've seen that in China, they had a marathon using humanoid robots and a robot called Lightning finished a marathon in 50 minutes and 26 seconds. So it's not enough that they're taking the jobs, they're beating us in physical activities, I think is, which is a tad depressing. So Tesla stock as of this recording is down 12 % this year.

JT ODonnell (29:53.848)

Shaving us.

Joel Cheesman (30:04.375)

people are not buying EVs, at least in this country, like they used to taking away the credit turns out, turns a lot of people away from the opportunity, but they will get into an EV car because they don't really care if it's gas or car. That is something I think people will do. I was in, like I mentioned, Phoenix this week and Phoenix is Waymo everywhere. Like there are driverless cars everywhere in Phoenix. And I took

JT ODonnell (30:29.016)

Hmm.

Joel Cheesman (30:33.389)

a Waymo to lunch with a friend. And then I took an Uber with a human to the airport. Let me tell you about how my, my two experiences Waymo, Waymo, the door unlocks with, with RFID with your phone or Bluetooth with your phone. You get in a robot says, welcome Joel, you know, have whatever, welcome, welcome to Waymo. And then you can choose your music on the touch screen. So if you want alternative or rock or whatever, can do that.

No one talks to you. No one says, was your day? No one tries to chat you up, which I never liked to do in an Uber or a taxi. So it takes me where I want to go, pulls over, says, have a nice day. I don't have to tip. I don't feel any like guilt if I don't tip, like I get out and we're done. The transaction is that. Yep, go ahead. Yep.

JT ODonnell (31:24.049)

Quick question, did it tell you to put on your seatbelt?

Joel Cheesman (31:27.821)

Probably, probably. I'm sure it's like a legal thing, like be safe and put on your seatbelt. My Uber driver picked me up. was now it was five-ish in the morning. I'm not a real morning person, so I'm a little bit skewed on this, but she started to chat me up immediately. Where are you from? What are you doing here? What's your business? Oh, you got a podcast. That's interesting. What do you talk about? it like...

I don't want to be a Dick and say, you know what, it's five in the morning. Let's just cool out on the chat. So I have to chat and then pull up. Like, feel like I have to give a tip. So I spend more money. Like I'm all here for the automated taxis. I, I think there's a day where you don't have to learn to drive. You just have an app and like, I want to go to Chipotle. Car will be here in five minutes. Takes me, think every, a new business of the future is turning garages into like rooms in your house, like new entertainment.

Whatever. So I'm all here for the cars. You look like you have something to say.

JT ODonnell (32:31.991)

I do, but I want you to finish.

Joel Cheesman (32:33.677)

Okay, well I'm going to war stuff, so if you have, I'm done with the auto taxi.

JT ODonnell (32:37.103)

The you're saying we don't need cars anymore, I immediately go to beam me up Scotty that at this point, we're just going to have tubes we step into and they're going to get us there. I don't know. Are we really going this way?

Joel Cheesman (32:47.423)

I hit cars. Cars are awful. Cars are awful. JT the average car, the average new car. You know how much it costs.

JT ODonnell (32:58.477)

I don't know, I've had my car for a long time.

Joel Cheesman (32:59.073)

It's like $53,000 for a new car. That's why everyone is buying used cars. Insurance sucks. You gotta house them at your house. You gotta park them somewhere. Thank God I live in the suburbs and have a garage. If I had to park in a street thing or like if I live in the city, that'd be a pain. I'd have to pay for that too. like cars are stupid and they're not investments. Their total money sucks.

JT ODonnell (33:04.847)

Mmm.

Joel Cheesman (33:26.869)

I only have one cause like we kind of have to now. And if I travel far, then I need a car.

JT ODonnell (33:29.715)

What happens with?

Okay, what happens when there's like a major life event, something's happening in your town and everyone needs to get out at the same time?

Joel Cheesman (33:40.127)

e-bike.

That's the car of the future.

JT ODonnell (33:43.373)

Wow. So you're hope your whole family can hop on that e-bike there, Joel, and just get out of Dodge with your stuff? Just saying, it can happen.

Joel Cheesman (33:46.797)

I don't know. I don't think the world is ending anytime soon. And the money I've saved on a car, I can buy a Joby airplane or whatever.

JT ODonnell (33:54.891)

So you're still gonna have a beater somewhere in the house, just in case. See, you're still gonna have the backup.

Joel Cheesman (33:58.881)

Maybe, maybe, I don't know, I don't know. I'm working through it mentally, JT, I'm working through it. Well, what's scarier is the military shit, so let me get to that real quick. Holy shit. Chad and I talked years ago on this show about military recruitment and how hard it was to get people to join the military. And not only get people to join the military, but roughly 70 plus percent of

JT ODonnell (34:03.949)

What can I say? Doomsday prepper right here. Doomsday prepper.

Joel Cheesman (34:28.439)

people who could join the military are ineligible to join because they're obese, they've done drugs, they have mental issues, like whatever it is. even if someone wants to join, have like guardrails that say you can't join because of X, Y, and Z. Now if we go to a war that might change, they might just let everybody in. And we're also limiting immigration. Immigration is a huge source for soldiers in the military and future leaders of the military.

JT ODonnell (34:37.87)

Okay.

Joel Cheesman (34:57.109)

So Chad's comment was that we'll be more robotic than ever and the need for like a million soldiers will decrease. I thought it was a little nutty at the time, but when I see shit like a Ukrainian force, like defeated a Russian force, all automated, all drones and robots, that's the future of warfare, man. Because like you look at Iran.

If we had a million robots, you don't think we'd be invading Iran right now with a million robots and saying like, good luck, Iran. And if you defeat these, maybe we'll come in with humans, but like the future is this. And if you look at that, I mean, like the way that China can make robots, a little scary. I'm sure some of them will have guns and bazookas and whatever. So I think this is the future of warfare and the countries that have

JT ODonnell (35:30.123)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (35:52.715)

the manufacturing capabilities, the AI capabilities, like those resources are going to be very scary to other countries in the future.

JT ODonnell (36:03.331)

And you started with a smaller country like the Ukraine to see what it could do, the power that it could wield. And for it to be able to do this starts to give smaller countries ideas of what they're capable of when it comes to that. So I'm with you, who has the power to build them is really the thing we need to pay attention to. we continue to ship, and we do, and we ship so much of our manufacturing overseas.

Joel Cheesman (36:07.553)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (36:22.389)

and manufacture them.

JT ODonnell (36:28.131)

which is something that we really need to rethink. The problem is, is getting people to do the manufacturing job. So you're going to need robots to build the robots because he...

Joel Cheesman (36:36.555)

and you need people to build the robots that are going to build the robots. yeah, anyway, scary future. It turns out it's not going to be Skynet. not going to be a company that like enslaves all of us. It'll be another country that enslaves all of us. And I guess it's just a matter of who can build them the fastest and make them the smartest and get them to the location soon enough. I know, but it's, hey.

JT ODonnell (36:39.855)

So.

JT ODonnell (36:51.417)

Yeah.

JT ODonnell (36:56.62)

So cheerful today. Yeah, so cheery.

Joel Cheesman (37:00.137)

It's a weird world, man. And this podcast is exemplifying all that weirdness. The war, however, does create opportunities and things that are going on that you might look at in terms of silver linings. So there's an increasing energy shortage causing pain as well as opportunity. Like I mentioned around the globe, solar energy.

is now dominating new power additions and accelerating the green energy transition faster than any other source in history, particularly in China. Time to invent a solar airplane because the war has also caused a global jet fuel shortage, doubling prices and prompting airlines like United to cut flights and raise fares. Critical supply levels in Europe and Asia threaten summer travel with stocks potentially lasting only a few weeks.

Getting kind of hectic, JT, what are your thoughts on new opportunities, thanks to war as well as some challenges.

JT ODonnell (37:53.983)

Mm. Mm.

JT ODonnell (37:59.632)

It is going to be interesting. think the war is panning out from an employment standpoint on many fronts that I'm seeing. So one, far less travel. I think that the hospitality industry, certain pockets, certain places are going to get hit hard this year that expect people to fly to their destination. If we don't resolve this, people aren't going to go and you're going to see a real downturn there. And that, you know, that hurts entire economies, know, local economies. So I watched that.

I get excited about the solar and the energy issues because again, disruption brings opportunity. I have a friend whose son has been hard at work in building a startup that has got the patent. partnered with somebody from MIT. They got a patent that is building the storage, the facilities underwater to cool for all the AI data requirements. And they have a patent and they're now

off the coast of Puerto Rico building this. It's insane and getting funding. So I look at that idea of energy being a source where, so it's in, right. you think about the operative, again, know, constraint forces people to think differently and build opportunity. And so that excites me and the energy piece is huge. I mean, just such an important thing for us. Let's get off the reliance of gas and oil.

Joel Cheesman (39:02.093)

So it's an alternative to helium, which we need from the Gulf as well. Okay, so that's alternative.

JT ODonnell (39:25.219)

You know, we've been saying it forever, but is this the tipping point that changes for us? Who will know? So yeah, employment wise, you're going to see some downs, but I also think you're going to see some increases.

Joel Cheesman (39:35.789)

Desperation is the mother of invention or something like that.

JT ODonnell (39:38.191)

Sure is, sure is.

Joel Cheesman (39:42.989)

So according to my research, Europe had an estimated $838 billion come in last year thanks to tourism. Asia almost double that, a lot more people in Asia, almost double that in Asia. Europe in particular, tourism is a major part of their economies. They serve all these tourists, they make a lot of money off of those tourists.

So if I'm Europe, I'm super concerned. if there's no jet fuel to bring Americans and Chinese tourists, et cetera, to the continent, cause that's, that's bad news. Now, Chad will love it. Cause fewer people, I get that, but, you love, you love the money. If you hate the people. speaking of Chad, I'm a little concerned that he'll get back home. He's currently in the U S and if his flights keep you canceled to Portugal and I'm set to go to rec fest, in June, that's a long time away. Like I'm.

JT ODonnell (40:37.295)

Right.

Joel Cheesman (40:39.467)

I'm a little bit worried that I'll be able to make it over to Europe for that show. So serious ramifications if we have no jet fuel to get to these countries for tourism dollars. The alternative energy thing is real. I think you're going to see, speaking of Europe, if we can't rely on oil. Look, if you're in a part of the world that doesn't have oil, your own oil, your own food and your own water,

JT ODonnell (40:41.177)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (41:09.653)

It's time to like recalibrate everything and Europe terms of energy. mean, the, the, the horrible truth about Europe is that they're basically funding the war with Ukraine. They're paying for Russian oil less so than they did, but like, it's a real, you know, it's, it's ironic that they are funding their own challenges. So, so there are going to be opportunities in solar. think nuclear is going to be, governments are going to have to like.

JT ODonnell (41:31.023)

Understood?

Joel Cheesman (41:38.615)

put aside the three mile Island and Chernobyl and realize that nuclear today is not what it was. It's a ton safer. You can make really small power units. So I think nuclear has a really bright future in terms of future careers. think solar, you're going to see that maxed out wind and air. A combination of all of those is what we need. Apparently I'm not an energy expert, but you'll need a little mix of all that. The challenge that I think

that we don't talk about enough is America's dependence on oil because of the petrodollar. America's power is largely a result of the dollar being necessary for countries to trade oil. When countries can get oil or don't need oil, one is if they start trading it in non-dollars, that's a problem. And if we don't need as much oil, then we don't need as many dollars.

JT ODonnell (42:13.903)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (42:34.381)

If dollars start coming home to America, that's a problem for us. When people say we're going to go solar, wind, whatever, I laugh because as long as the dollar is tied to oil, America is not getting off oil. It's in our interest to keep the world chugging oil like never before because it helps our dollar be stronger.

China, of course, wants a battery future because they have all the minerals and they don't have the access to oil. So there's sort of this geopolitical game of chess where are we alternative, which favors China, or do we keep with oil, which maintains the US hegemony around the world? And I fear that we're probably clashing to that reality here soon on a global level.

JT ODonnell (43:02.946)

Right.

JT ODonnell (43:22.031)

Do you watch Landman with Billy Bob Thornton? I mean, I love shows like that just because Taylor Sheridan really gets into it from all sides, whatever he's tackling on that. And the education around oil alone has been fascinating to me, you know, very different from the days of watching Dallas. For you kiddos that remember Dallas. But I think for you to talk about that and to understand, there's just so much business tied to it too.

Joel Cheesman (43:23.978)

I do. I do.

Joel Cheesman (43:39.649)

Yeah, yeah.

Joel Cheesman (43:49.569)

There's a great scene in that movie or that movie, that show. I think it's season two where it's Billy Bob and, John Ham are in a meeting with, looks like shareholders and they're talking about alternative or the one of them says clean energy and Billy Bob says it's alternative energy. Like don't fool yourself into thinking that it's clean because it is dirty. mean, digging this stuff up from the ground, the energy it takes to do that. So it is alternative.

JT ODonnell (44:13.038)

Right.

JT ODonnell (44:17.391)

Fracking. Absolutely.

Joel Cheesman (44:19.469)

It's not really clean. So that's a moment I remember from the show. Yeah. It is a great show for more than just the education on energy. It's just, uh, it's, good from all around. All right, guys, we're to take a quick break. Uh, if you haven't left us a review on your podcast platform of choice, please, please let us hear from you. love it.

JT ODonnell (44:21.153)

Mm-hmm. That's what I'm saying. It's so fascinating.

Joel Cheesman (44:43.885)

All right, JT, we recently talked about sports stars in the NBA joining LinkedIn. Now artists are saying, hold my beer. Musician and Elon baby mama Grimes is leveraging LinkedIn to transition from pop star to AI tech CEO, focusing on B2B voice services and an Nvidia partnership.

By targeting professional audiences, she aims to bypass traditional music labels and rebrand as a tech industry leader. Musicians on LinkedIn, JT, big deal, little deal or no deal.

JT ODonnell (45:20.367)

Okay, I'm embarrassed to say that I had to look up the term art washing in this respect. I mean, I thought I understood it until the article said this is the biggest example of art washing. And I said, how? But now I get it. understand, you know, what they're trying to do. It's interesting. are, LinkedIn seems to be going down two different paths that I don't fully see why they're doing it, but I'm sure there's a method to the madness. One, the algorithm has changed greatly right now to reduce people going viral.

Joel Cheesman (45:36.471)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (45:49.602)

So let's be abundantly clear. If you're not going viral on LinkedIn, it's meant to match you to opportunity. It's trying to dial you in. And they did that to quell the fears of all these people are saying, I don't want to post on LinkedIn. the, you know, it's gets, it's the butt of so many jokes in terms of it's technically a social media platform, but, and so, you know, they're really trying to educate people on you're not going to go viral. Nice try. All you're trying to do is get found by recruiters. I get behind that. I believe in that. I teach people that, but then.

They have this other side where they're bringing in Reese Witherspoon and singers who are clearly being brought in to bring this visibility to it. Good news is they're really trying to have them look at it from a business standpoint. So the people that are coming on are trying to talk to people in business. Interesting idea. But then it conflicts because somebody says, I don't want to be a Reese Witherspoon. I don't want to be a Grimes.

Joel Cheesman (46:35.787)

Mm-hmm. Yep.

JT ODonnell (46:45.967)

I don't like that they've got these dueling perceptions going on, but I'm sure that there are people much smarter than me at LinkedIn thinking about this from both sides. So it's interesting. Does it work? That's what I really want to know. Is Grimes happy with this decision to only drop music on LinkedIn? Is it benefiting her? I don't know. I just don't see the art scene ultimately doing this. I think you could see a couple people.

Joel Cheesman (46:49.783)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (47:03.906)

Yeah.

JT ODonnell (47:11.789)

you know, like her trying to bring attention to it, but do I ultimately see them all coming over here? No, I really don't.

Joel Cheesman (47:20.861)

it's not show friends, JT, it's show business. funny critics of this talk about, this, if, if not, if something says impending recession, it's, it's music artists on LinkedIn, trying to find a job or trying to get money. which is kind of funny. I, I'm here for this because the music industry in particular has changed so much since.

JT ODonnell (47:25.135)

That's right.

JT ODonnell (47:35.149)

Mmm, fair.

Joel Cheesman (47:46.251)

the days of buying CDs and records at, you know, at your, at your local, local record store. A track I remember eight tracks. So do you. And the, the economics of it is so far from selling songs to the tours and the sponsorships. And so I think a savvy musician, like the days of

JT ODonnell (47:52.975)

Who are you kidding? 8-Track for you, buddy. 8-Track. True.

Joel Cheesman (48:13.357)

Hey, I'm going to get signed by capital records and I'm, I'm a made band or artists. I think those are, I don't want say they're gone because I don't know enough about it. Uh, as I probably should for this commentary, but I think that model is dead and musicians are trying to figure out how can I leverage what I have to make money. Money is on LinkedIn.

You can get sponsored. She's in within video. Like that's the big dollars. You know, the tour is fun and profitable, but it's hard to sign with Nvidia or do like big deals like that. Being on LinkedIn helps you more than it does on Tik TOK or reels or Insta. so I'm here for it. I don't know how many can make that bridge to what I, my brand and now to big sponsors, but I think you'll see more and more athletes.

musicians, artists do it.

JT ODonnell (49:06.945)

It's interesting you say that. So I am full disclosure in their alpha program. I was solicited a couple of weeks ago and signed on, which means that brands on LinkedIn can come to me and say, I want to sponsor this video you did. and you know, attach a button and click through, very simple process to be brought on and signed for it. Haven't seen any interest yet, which I think is fascinating. And it's not something that I get to like actively go out and pursue. It truly is just a unit, but it's alpha there. We'll go through alpha then beta, then roll it out.

Joel Cheesman (49:09.975)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (49:17.655)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (49:36.661)

always said they were going to go this way, but I think somebody like her, that's a big name who's got teams of people and money figuring out how to get to Nvidia and make that brand deal happen versus somebody like me, which is just, you need to find me and decide you want to throw money behind the video. It's a different dynamic. So it'd be interesting to see how that plays out.

Joel Cheesman (49:44.364)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (49:49.698)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (49:57.655)

And I think, know, so I'm a big fan of the strokes. The strokes are coming to Indianapolis, which probably hasn't happened in 20 years. So I'm pretty hyped about the strokes being in my local town. However, when I went to go buy tickets, the prices threw me for a loop. Like, I mean, I have a little coin, but $500 a ticket to see the strokes. Like I got to reconsider that because I got a family that wants to go.

And there's beer and drinks and food. So I'm like, I'm going to try to get it on the secondary market for cheaper to try to, you know, get something at last minute, which is kind of my MO anyway. So my point in that is saying, you know, even the model of, we're going to tour. I don't know if bands are going to get the kind of dollars that they're used to, unless you're like Oasis reunion. It's been 20 years tour.

I don't know if you're going to be, you know, unless you're Taylor Swift or a big name, there are only so many concerts that people are going to consume. And this diversification of trying to build your brand into a B2B platform, I think makes a lot of sense if you're an entrepreneur, which every musician and band is now.

JT ODonnell (51:05.997)

Yeah.

I literally had the same experience. We just decided not to go to a concert at this secondary style event venue that they wanted $400 for these lawn seats to go see Ella Langley. And I said, no, absolutely not. Not worth it. So to your point, creating that digital. And then do you wonder, can they pull back on the tour and curate amazing experiences? So I will pay money to go meet you, hang out with you.

Joel Cheesman (51:21.771)

Yeah. Yeah.

JT ODonnell (51:37.358)

be in room where I hear you in a concert with maybe 100, 200 people, can they do that and still have that opportunity, which they also then turn into video footage, social media footage, et cetera, higher end experience, a lot fewer of them and then keep it to digital. But the one last thing I'll say about that, I think a lot of performers live for touring. They live for being in front of that audience, that vibe, that connection, that gratification. So while it might be a better money play,

Will they lose that one thing that they enjoy, which is playing for audiences? And so you gotta wonder.

Joel Cheesman (52:14.509)

think they're trying to balance. So there's lawn seating. Now your case, it's 400 for the lawn or whatever. That's a little extreme. So the tickets for the lawn are pretty accessible. Let's be honest. My wife doesn't do lawn anymore unless it's like Dave Matthews or something. So I got to have a seat, which means I pay more. And I agree with you more having sort of VIP experiences, whether it's get in an hour early for sound check.

So you can see the band sort of check, you know, on stage before the show or pictures with the band. Like my wife, Canadian loves bare naked ladies. You know, the, the unofficial band of Canada, for a lot of people. And they had a picture with the band, VIP experience. ended up not getting it, but I considered it because she is such a fan and the social media endorphin rush to have all our Canadian friends see her with bare naked ladies was like something that was hard to pass up, but clearly bands are trying to figure out.

JT ODonnell (52:51.631)

as do I, love them.

Joel Cheesman (53:11.735)

How do we balance the audience with full money or the most profitable bill that we can? it's an interesting world that we live in. will, I will offer this in on this. the NFL draft is this week on Thursday. we'll publish this Friday. So it will have happened after this. I'm wearing my Brown's cap today. cause the, the, the draft is the super bowl for most Brown's fans. Cause we usually draft really high. aside from that, the number one pick.

this year is going to be a guy named Fernando Mendoza. He was the quarterback at Indiana university, won a championship, won the Heisman. he is all in on LinkedIn and I think it's fascinating. he's been on LinkedIn for awhile. He has hundreds of thousands of followers, which will certainly go to millions once he joins the NFL. he, he humorously has the open to work badge on his profile picture.

JT ODonnell (54:06.511)

Love it, love it.

Joel Cheesman (54:07.065)

so I don't know if he takes that off after the draft or not. And he has deals with us bank and Taco bell. So he has listed on his profile, both of those companies, he has kind of a funny title, whatever. But if, if I'm us bank, does that not, is that not appealing to have a quarterback first round, you first draft pick and have us bank as an employee, like have that connection.

I think that's incredibly powerful and you can't do that on TikTok or Instagram or any of those. So I think that is kind of the boilerplate for what you'll see more and more athletes do in the future.

JT ODonnell (54:44.833)

It's interesting. Yes. And you're also going to see a big rise in private messaging. So platforms like Telegram, and this is all coming off of OnlyFans, right? Where they make their money is they have chatters who are chatting up in order to buy purchases. The head of social media for Josh Ross, who's a country singer, reached out to me because I follow him. I'm a fan and said, would you test our Telegram product? I didn't pay for it, but they

Joel Cheesman (54:52.546)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (55:03.117)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (55:11.681)

signed me up and it's supposed to be me getting messages directly from Josh. So you think about that fan base. It's, well, that's the thing. They're telling you it's really him and it's messaging and the reaction was, ooh, they're early stages. This isn't feeling right at all, which was the feedback that I gave them, but I can see where they're going, right? Super fans, the idea of just being, sitting around at night, I have nothing to do, I'm lonely. I can talk to Josh Ross, my favorite singer.

Joel Cheesman (55:15.627)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (55:19.329)

Those are automated, right? Those are automated messages. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (55:39.735)

Yeah.

JT ODonnell (55:39.887)

I could see that that piece really starting to happen using AI, et cetera, creating that experience for people. So those, the name image likeness is going to go to a whole next level with some of these folks.

Joel Cheesman (55:51.329)

I mean, it goes back to the Zuckerberg, you know, AI CEO, right? I mean, if it looks like him, it sounds like him, it's got his brain, all of his content, how he says stuff, and it feels real. Like if you're a fan, you're probably okay with Starlight, you know, edition of your Star. One thing that will never be automated though, JT.

JT ODonnell (55:56.451)

Right. Right.

JT ODonnell (56:01.284)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (56:10.692)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (56:16.737)

here we go.

Joel Cheesman (56:20.833)

That's right. Speaking of music, what is Beethoven's favorite fruit? What is Beethoven's favorite fruit?

Joel Cheesman (56:32.651)

Banananaa. Banananaa.

JT ODonnell (56:34.649)

You

Joel Cheesman (56:39.529)

Spring in New England, enjoy that JT. We out.

JT ODonnell (56:42.742)

We out!