CareerBuilder + Monster: End of an Era?
- Chad Sowash
- Jun 13
- 38 min read
Updated: Jun 16
Batten down your LinkedIn profiles and sharpen those résumés—things are about to get messy. In this episode, “Monster + CareerBuilder: End of an Era?”, we spill the tea on why two of the internet’s original job-board dinosaurs are up for auction faster than you can say “résumé black hole.”
But wait, there’s more! We’ll peek behind the curtain at Indeed’s latest foray into AI chatbots—because nothing says “we care about your career” like a robot that still can’t find your typo. Then, we’ll roast Workday’s “economy of skills” pitch (buzzword alert!) and decide whether it’s the next big thing… or just another narrative for Josh Bersin to spin and make a buck.
Next up, it’s SmartRecruiters’ Winston AI squaring off against those crusty old ATS relics—think Rocky, but with fewer eye pokes and more API integrations. And because we can’t resist charting growth curves, we’ll compare social media’s meteoric ad revenues (hello, viral cat videos) to traditional media’s snail-pace earnings—spoiler: nostalgia isn’t exactly a cash cow.
So grab your popcorn (or that stale office donut), sit back, and enjoy the snarky insider tour through the highs, the lows, and the utterly absurd of modern recruitment tech.
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION
Joel Cheesman (00:01.374)
I'm back, baby.
Chad (00:03.944)
whatever
Joel Cheesman (00:30.832)
Aww.
Joel Cheesman (00:36.592)
podcast, we've got fun and games. Hi, boys and girls. It's the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co host Joel Pet Sounds Cheeseman.
Chad (00:45.34)
I'm Chad, indeed, scammy texts. So was.
J.T. O'Donnell (00:49.538)
And I'm JT, my back hurts, so Donald.
Joel Cheesman (00:52.912)
And on this episode, indeed is chatting. CareerBuilder plus Monster are selling and Smart Recruiters is evolving. Let's do this.
Chad (00:54.046)
I don't wanna know.
Chad (01:06.43)
Welcome back, welcome back, welcome back.
Joel Cheesman (01:07.728)
Did you miss me?
Mr. Carter reference. love it. Who was your favorite character on Mr. Vinny, Vinny Bobberino. Horshack. Horshack was pretty good too. Mr. Carter. Jesus.
Chad (01:15.39)
shit Vinny Bobberino. yeah, definitely Vinny Bobberino. Yeah So, what are you doing? What are you doing?
J.T. O'Donnell (01:22.744)
Mm-mm.
Joel Cheesman (01:28.91)
Yeah. So, I'm, I'm in the, I'm in the, I'm in the, crossroads of like college visits, graduation and, my, my dad falling, all kinds of stuff are going on, with me right now. But, I took my daughter, went up to Chicago, took in a Cubs game. then we went, drove out to Notre Dame, visited Notre Dame, came back to Chicago, hung out, ate some Italian beefs.
Chad (01:30.354)
out on birthday week.
Chad (01:53.054)
Sweet. Sweet.
Joel Cheesman (01:57.488)
and a deep dish. And then we visited Northwestern and the University of Chicago and came back and had a bunch of family come in. And my oldest son, first born, graduated high school. He'll be going to Indiana University in Bloomington in August. yeah, so big, big things happening here on the ranch for sure.
Chad (02:02.984)
Very nice.
Chad (02:13.871)
that's scary. Scary.
J.T. O'Donnell (02:15.457)
Nice, congrats.
Chad (02:19.774)
Party University, Party University.
Joel Cheesman (02:22.352)
I mean, very few aren't party universities, yeah, Indiana is pretty good time, I'm sure.
Chad (02:26.886)
Not like Bloomington. Like ranked in the top five of party universities. Solid for like 20 years, dude. So okay, no, that's good. All good. All good.
Joel Cheesman (02:38.66)
He obviously chose it for academic or he's academic or academic or intellectual academic reasons. Anyway, clearly, clearly he's my son. So yeah, I'm back and we, and we missed the day, the last week and then, I'm two weeks out. So I'm ready to rock today and we got career builder monster. Indeed. got everything. We got so much red meat today. I'm ready to rock, but I do want to say, speaking of old and, and good stuff, Brian Wilson of the beach boys passed away. And I know,
Chad (02:40.784)
Of course.
Yeah. How about you, JT? What'd you build to?
Chad (02:53.224)
OK.
Chad (02:58.237)
It is.
J.T. O'Donnell (03:05.515)
Yeah.
Chad (03:06.142)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (03:08.496)
You guys probably know the beach boys. lot of, a lot of the young ones don't, uh, any beach boy memories, favorite songs. JT's nodding.
J.T. O'Donnell (03:16.205)
I got to dance, I was a cheerleader in high school, captain of my squad. And I got to dance on stage with the beach boys to be true to your school. They chose cheerleaders from across the state to do a routine on stage. So that's my big beach boys memory in front of like 15,000 people. There you go. Yeah. Yeah. That's a thing. Be true to You want me to, I mean, I'll bring the routine out at rec fest. mean, you didn't let me know.
Joel Cheesman (03:19.51)
Shocking, shocking.
Joel Cheesman (03:26.576)
Joel Cheesman (03:31.385)
stop.
Chad (03:33.148)
I can't, yeah, can't, I can't. I can't, I cannot do that. I'm just gonna shut up.
Joel Cheesman (03:43.162)
So did you meet them or were you just like a dancer in the background?
J.T. O'Donnell (03:45.23)
Yeah, of course, you know, they came back and did the obligatory shook our hands and then hit the stage kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. I do remember everybody was like, dang, these guys are old, right? You know, I'm 17 years old. You know, so.
Joel Cheesman (03:49.424)
Was Brian Wilson still around by then? Was he totally out of it? He was totally off his tits, right?
Joel Cheesman (04:00.237)
Yeah.
Chad (04:03.378)
Dude's doing shrooms.
Joel Cheesman (04:03.714)
It wasn't the Kokomo video, which by the way, no one's favorite song is Kokomo of the Beach Boys. John Stamos playing the bongos. I'm going to go Sloop John B is my favorite Beach Boys song and Pet Sounds, the album, of the hundred best ever. If you love the Beatles, there is no Beatles without the Beach Boys. And of course, without the Beatles, there's not a lot of what came after that. So if you love the Beatles.
Chad (04:12.094)
It's memorable though. It's memorable. Yeah, it's memorable.
Joel Cheesman (04:32.58)
pay homage to the Beach Boys, the Beach Boys. You guys are clearly bored with this conversation. So let's get to it.
Chad (04:36.616)
Beach Boys.
Joel Cheesman (04:43.662)
Shout outs as you guys know, are sponsored by our friends at Kiara. That's text recruiting made simple and affordable. my, my, my shout out, pretty obvious one, father's day father's day is this weekend. I've my biological stepmother, have, have gone, to the big sky up above and, my father at 85 is still chugging. he's, he's not without his faults and his, his, you know, memories fading, but, this
Chad (04:50.098)
made some.
Chad (04:55.656)
Mmm.
Joel Cheesman (05:12.4)
I'm celebrating father. I'm really focused on father's day and being father myself, my son leaving for school. So like, it's just sort of on the mind. if you're near your father, like hug him, tell him you love him. because father's day doesn't get a lot of respect and I have a little comedic clip, that kind of encapsulates what, father's day has become. but, check this out. think, I think you'll enjoy it.
Chad (06:04.082)
Arbor Day.
Chad (06:35.42)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (06:37.968)
Shout out to fathers. Happy Father's Day everybody. All the fathers out there. What you got JT? Mother, mother, mother JT.
J.T. O'Donnell (06:40.991)
Happy Father's Day, gang.
J.T. O'Donnell (06:45.375)
My shout outs to Mark Eben, who just made a, what they're calling a bold prediction. You'll find it in an ink magazine. And he's saying that, you know, because of AI and the next three years or so, people are really going to be seeking out human interaction, right? You're to get out of the office. You're going to get out and want to connect. And I agree with him. I think that if you remember this little thing called the pandemic, right post pandemic, everyone was spending money on experiences.
experiences, experiences, right? It was like, that was the reaction to it. And I think with AI, we're going to have a very similar reaction. I've been told, and I haven't seen it in quotes, but I've been told by multiple people who know me that Gary Vaynerchuk has said there'll be a day where people pay to take a walk with you or something like that, you know, that we're just going to get to a place where we're going be paying for human interaction. And I don't know if it's necessarily human action, but more like knowledge exchange and we trust humans more and we want to just talk to a real person instead of a bot. So I'm with them on the prediction and I think it's cool.
Chad (07:45.82)
Hmm. Well, JT totally stole my shout out. Although, although I do have his tweet that he put out, is a little condensed form, quote, within the next three years, there will be so much AI, in particular AI video, which we're going to see a little bit later, People won't know if they see or what they see or hear is real, which will lead to an explosion of face-to-face engagement, events, jobs.
Joel Cheesman (07:46.455)
All right.
J.T. O'Donnell (07:50.987)
Right. Right.
Joel Cheesman (07:51.34)
What?
Chad (08:15.643)
Those that were in the office will be in the field call it the Milli Vanilli effect
Chad (08:25.956)
Okay, I get the deep fake aspect. I get the deep fake aspect. We're not going to know. It's like, don't believe your lying eyes kind of thing. That's going to be an actual thing. But the whole hot take on explosion to face to face, I think humans are more wall-y than they are really caring about needing the social vibe, period. mean, the reason why in the pandemic,
Joel Cheesman (08:27.172)
It needs a better name. It needs a better name.
Chad (08:54.782)
we needed it is because we couldn't have it. Now we can have it whenever we want it. And we don't do it. Right now we can do it, right? And we don't want it. Now, Gary Vandertuk, that dude is fucking off his rocker. They might pay him for a walk, right? I get that. They pay Gary Vandertuk or Mark Cuban for a walk, but they're not gonna pay Chad and Cheese. They might pay JT for a walk maybe, but come on. I mean.
J.T. O'Donnell (09:21.613)
Okay, but do remember when they automated the phone and you got so sick of hitting one, five, seven that everybody just started going zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, zero to speak to an operator? That's what I think about when I think about AI. We're massively automating everything with AI. Everyone's playing with everything. You're eventually going to get to a place where you just want to talk to a human. And I do think that's going to happen.
Joel Cheesman (09:31.344)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (09:41.272)
I get that. just don't think we're going to we I think we've gotten to the point where we don't even know the name our neighbors names anymore. We don't even go to our neighbors kids softball games anymore. I remember growing up. That's our neighbors would actually come to games and stuff that doesn't happen anymore. And we don't I mean, so I just don't see that happening. It's very optimistic and I love optimism, but humans are stupid. I mean, we're just going to self disrupt. We're going to self-destruct.
Joel Cheesman (10:03.716)
The explosion in pet ownership says that people want that sort of organic connection, but not with people, because people suck. Like, my dog, cool, I'll hang out with my dog, but Chad, no, that's a bridge too far.
Chad (10:11.422)
Yeah. Yeah, we and just on the record, humans do not deserve dogs. We do not deserve dogs. They are the best thing on the planet, bar none, period.
Joel Cheesman (10:30.116)
Chad loves dogs. Cuban, a proud IU graduate. Mark Cuban, by the way. So you can party and do great things, kids. You can party and do great things.
J.T. O'Donnell (10:31.031)
That's my dog's birthday today, I'm not gonna disagree with you. Yes, he's six.
Chad (10:31.228)
I do. hello.
Chad (10:39.581)
Hahaha
J.T. O'Donnell (10:40.077)
There you go.
Joel Cheesman (10:45.796)
Brings us to free stuff.
J.T. O'Donnell (10:45.869)
and I just want to comment that it's been six months before these two have finally decided that I can actually do something and not mess it up on the show. So I would love to announce that today I am now going to explain the amazing free stuff that you can get from this show. But first, can I just say upfront, you can't win any of this junk if you don't play. So please go to Chad and cheese dot com slash free. Do you hear me now? Don't complain when you don't win. All right, folks.
Chad (10:47.166)
You know he does.
Joel Cheesman (10:57.738)
You
Chad (11:02.781)
Yes.
Joel Cheesman (11:13.648)
Sorry, it's ChadCheese.com, not ChadAndCheese.com. This is already off the rails, Chad.
J.T. O'Donnell (11:16.409)
sorry, Chad, you see? And this is why they don't give it to me. I got no rehearsal, people. I was thrown into this. Zero rehearsal.
Chad (11:21.19)
Hahaha!
J.T. O'Donnell (11:26.113)
Let's go. right. Let's start with some whiskey because it's shocking. It's all booze. We're going to go with whiskey from Second City Lovers over at Van Hack. Thank you, Van Hack for the whiskey. You can win bourbon barrel aged syrup. That way you can claim you're not drinking when you're having your pancakes. Bob and Doug McKenzie over at Kiora. T-shirts. I can attest. The t-shirts.
Chad (11:28.968)
Yes.
Joel Cheesman (11:30.254)
All right.
Chad (11:41.171)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (11:48.136)
Yeah?
J.T. O'Donnell (11:53.006)
T-shirts, I will attest, they are super soft. They're very nice. Those are for the red shoe wearing weirdos apparently at Aaron App. By the way, they told me to say all this. Sorry, I'm in advance. Some craft beer, some craft beer from the job data geeks over at Aspen Tech Labs. And here's the biggie. If it's your birthday, you are going to get some rum with plum.
Chad (11:57.566)
you
Joel Cheesman (12:06.906)
Chad told her.
Chad (12:16.904)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (12:19.024)
you
Joel Cheesman (12:22.82)
Little more feeling next time. Little next time. That's right. All right guys. Another, another, another trip around the sun for Karen Wong, Eli Carstens, Kimberly Ulstrup, TJ LL, Robin Walsh, Zach Martin, Catherine Henry, Eric Baker Mayfield, Linda Whitmore, Summer Baruth, Katie Crissa, Jennifer McClure, and Jeff Lackey everybody. Jeff Lackey. Happy birthday, everybody. Happy birthday.
Chad (12:23.036)
You can't win if you don't go to ChadG's.com slash free.
Chad (12:31.838)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (12:46.61)
There it is. There it is.
J.T. O'Donnell (12:47.287)
Happy birthday!
Chad (12:52.21)
In what time is it?
Joel Cheesman (12:53.872)
Oh, is it time to go somewhere?
Chad (12:57.438)
Yes. Well, Stephen, you know where we're going because you're going to be there too. As a matter of fact, we're all going to be there. Travel sponsors by Shaker Recruitment Marketing. Next on the board is RecFest UK in Nebworth. That's July 10th. And this week on LinkedIn, the boys over at RecFest pushed out a promo video that was primo. You got to check this out. Go ahead and roll that,
Chad (13:43.837)
Rupert.
Chad (13:58.878)
2050.
Chad (14:13.512)
That was all AI kids. Google's new VO3, AI avatars are fucking wild. I mean, literally Google has, first and foremost, they lost the lead in AI, right? Open AI came out and next thing you know, Google's like, what the fuck?
J.T. O'Donnell (14:17.356)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (14:32.016)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (14:38.268)
Those guys, they've got DeepMind, they've got a lot of shit that's actually happening right now, and it's pretty amazing the kind of content that they're putting out, but it's also scary as shit.
Joel Cheesman (14:49.764)
It's and it's off the it's off the tracks already. the best one that I, it's two Yetis, two Sasquatches and one's black and one's white. And they do like mushrooms and Coke. It's like, it's pretty funny. It's pretty, so people are getting really creative with this stuff and we'll get to the creator economy, at some point in the near future, but we have a lot of other stuff to cover before that. All right, guys, the doctor is in the doctor's in per the better. So wash.
Chad (15:07.859)
Yes.
J.T. O'Donnell (15:11.095)
topics.
Joel Cheesman (15:19.064)
and the much better looking one. CareerBuilder Plus Monster is reportedly closing its U.S. headquarters, terminating employees and putting itself up for sale. The company, owned by Apollo Global Management and the Ontario's Teachers Pension Plan Board, that's a mouthful, is exploring a sale process and providing notices to most U.S.-based employees, despite the company's statement contradicting the termination letter. It looks like it's going down. Chad, you're pretty close to this in more ways than one. What are your thoughts?
Chad (15:20.595)
Yes.
Chad (15:50.408)
So she was incredibly excited to be able to get the scoop on this. She asked me, like, hey, did you know about the Monster Career Builder News? I'm like, no, what? She read it to me like, holy shit. Yeah, she got the scoop on it. She even got the scoop on AIM Group and everybody else. So was pretty amazing.
J.T. O'Donnell (16:08.001)
Nice.
Chad (16:09.566)
So the question is, is this the end of an era or a new beginning? I'll get back to that later. The last decade has truly been hard to watch after being a part of the big launch of the combined Monsterboard OCC merger in January of 1999, which created Monster.com. What we've watched over the past decade with Monster is what happens when accountants start controlling a company. No vision.
no understanding of what companies were acquired and how to blend those acquisitions into an ecosystem, and an overall lack of innovative focus and leadership. beat newspapers, became more prominent than major advertising agencies, only in the end to be handed over to some fucking bean counters. Then you have Career Builder, the nemesis of Monster, who built probably the best sales machine this industry will ever know.
They knew how to blend their acquisitions into the career builder ecosystem. But in the end, they were sold to Apollo who did what private equity does best, rip great companies apart and sell them for pieces. Now back to my question. Is this the end of an era or a new beginning? Because we're talking about the process or the prospect of sale. First off, the tech is old. Even major systems are rebuilding. So Monster plus Career Builder,
would have to start from the ground up on tech, making the tech currently worthless in my honest opinion. The candidate databases, well, you can buy that data for much cheaper than actually an acquisition. The major asset I see are the people. But once again, Apollo isn't a people company and buying people is fleeting because they can walk out the door the next day. Last but not least, the brands. Monster and CareerBuilder were once worldwide and known.
brands. But unfortunately, those brands have become incredibly tarnished and have atrophied with bean counter and PE neglect. So we just dropped a great episode, an interview from Unleash where we found out that gem.com that domain was $2 million. So that's a nice benchmark, I think, for a company like maybe StepStone with designs on coming to America, just pay a cool 10 million and walk away with a monster and career builder domains and brands.
Chad (18:36.87)
and let the day begin.
Joel Cheesman (18:39.696)
Did say step stone? Did someone put that in your ear? Maybe you've heard that one, heard that one before. Yeah.
Chad (18:42.812)
Yeah, yeah, it was one of my friends over in Europe.
Joel Cheesman (18:48.689)
well, before we get to my predictions, I want to go, I think it's time, Chad.
Chad (18:53.778)
Yes, history lesson. I knew it was coming.
Joel Cheesman (18:57.168)
All right. Chad touched on this, but it's really fascinating. At least I find it fascinating. So if we go back in time to the world of display ads in the, in the mid late nineties, major newspapers were getting five, 10, 20 grand for one display ad on any given like say Sunday, example, advertising agencies, recruiting advertising agencies were making money hand over fist, basically creating this stuff, putting it out for,
Chad (19:06.91)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (19:21.214)
like.
Joel Cheesman (19:25.36)
uh, for businesses, for employers, and then the internet happened. And basically the world said, let's take the ad on the paper and put it on the computer screen and we could do it for so much cheaper. We're not printing paper. We're not doing all those things. So there was this, this whole re this whole array of newcomers, uh, there were about a dozen or so, and they were selling ads, like free ads, uh, $99 unlimited. The ad could be as long as you want. And you had, you had two brands.
Chad (19:51.784)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (19:55.384)
Mainly monster monster and Chad, you're close to this, but monster was basically like, look, we're going to, we're going to undercut the newspapers because we can. And in the next five, 10, 20 years, we're going to be getting that five, 10, $20,000 potentially for a package on monster for advertising. So, so their, their mindset was kill the paper, kill the newspaper. You know, Craig's list obviously was, was a big part of this well. So you, you fast forward. It's like, let's build these brands. Let's do Superbowl ads. Let's.
Chad (20:10.44)
Yeah, for more than one job.
Joel Cheesman (20:24.76)
buy blimps, let's do all this crazy shit because we need to be the brand when employers think I need to post my job. Holy shit, right? if history doesn't repeat itself, it certainly rhymes. So we see indeed, and this goes back to our relationship where we met first was when you were direct employers and a guy named Joe Jason Goldberg, who was then CEO and founder of jobster, which was one of these upstarts because
Google became a thing and I don't think anyone sort of thought of it, but Google gave you the ability to say, look, I need a job in Toledo. I'm going to search for a job in Toledo. There was no monolithic site that I would go to potentially to do that. Now Monster and Crible and everybody still had great search rankings, but then Indeed comes along and says, well, we can undercut all this big brand stuff by going to Google and driving traffic from that.
They were largely ignored by monster who was now a public company career builder who was like focused on we're a newspaper, but we're online. We're doing parties in Mexico. We're taking people out to games. We're doing all things that agencies did. And all the while indeed is undercutting the entire process. Job seekers go into indeed and job boards are dumb enough at the time. And a lot of people saw this, like, why are you letting them index your jobs?
Why are you letting them do this? But they kept letting them do it. They could have destroyed indeed early. They could have destroyed simply hired, which indeed eventually killed, but yeah, could have totally just killed them in the womb, done, monster keeps going, but they didn't. In fact, they even put APIs on their sites to backfill their jobs, which shocker had a backlink to jobs, the key phrase anchor text jobs, which helped indeed further get better search rankings.
Chad (21:49.31)
could have bought them. Yeah. Easily.
Joel Cheesman (22:10.692)
to quicken the demise of Monster and Cribbler. Well, before they knew it, 2008 happened, the world, great recession happened and companies started saying, why do we need Monster? We can use Indeed, which is cheaper. We only pay for clicks. Like it's just so much better. So there was this earthquake that Indeed and Cribbler never recovered from. They have
Like you said, fast forward today, indeed and LinkedIn are like 80 % probably of the market share monster and crib builder, smart part. are $200 million revenue business combined, apparently. So there is some value there. We know they, we know monster at least has some global presence, but ultimately these companies were killed by indeed, indeed kill a lot of their competitors. And now we live in a world where we are now we'll get to indeed later, but indeed again, history doesn't repeat, it rhymes.
Indeed, I think is facing a similar threat and we'll get to that in our next in our next piece. So, but, but you have companies that once ruled this landscape were once these huge monolithic brands and they're, basically gone. mean, these companies are for sale clearance yard sale, TJ Maxx clearance rack. Nobody wants them. Nobody they're shrinking. They're not growing. So that's what we have. Now what happens next?
Chad touched on acquisition. I have three scenarios that I think are potentially possible for the career builder plus monster future. Number one is I still think ZipRecruiter could go private. think Apollo could roll up a ZipRecruiter acquisition, go private, bring all these brands together.
get them up to snuff or whatever, do whatever Apollo does, cut as much fat as they possibly can, maybe get this thing to some crazy, crazy, profitability, and then they could go public again, or they could maybe sell it to somebody else. So I think Apollo or private equity could roll this thing up with, with zip recruiter. number two, number two, yeah, you once said that about step stones. So number two is, indeed, recruit holdings. Look,
Joel Cheesman (24:27.332)
They got this thing down pat. They've whether it's workopolis, workopolis is a, zip recruiter got workopolis, but so it's simply hired, indeed knows this backfill. all they would have to do is, is have these properties roll the, roll the indeed con, you know, content around job postings. They've done this before. So recruit holdings could further, you know, sort of consolidate this market, really kill the competition.
Chad (24:38.538)
indeed.
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (24:55.288)
and roll that $200 million combined revenue into recruit holdings. Kitty now number three, we're telling is probably the most interesting is an international player that wants to get into America could easy button this thing, a step stone, seek job and talent for a, for pennies on the dollar. You guys can have a footprint in America brands that people know in America and you guys could hit the ground running.
and in America, the largest economy in the world. number one, private equity rolls this thing up with zip recruiter. Number two, recruit holdings just buys it, kills it, throws in a backfill or number three, there's an international player that wants to make a splash in America. Those are my three predictions for what happens now with career builder plus monster.
Chad (25:46.418)
JT, you've had a lot to soak up. What do you think?
J.T. O'Donnell (25:49.55)
I mean, if I was in the room with Joel right now, I'd just pat him on the head and say, you're so cute. First of all, I love that you're talking about the brand. Go ask anybody under the age of 25 if they know what the heck career builder and monster are. Nothing. Secondly.
Joel Cheesman (25:53.602)
A lot of bullshit to step over is what she's saying.
Chad (25:53.682)
Yeah
Chad (26:04.574)
You got tons of trust though, that's the thing. That's the thing that matters the most, which I only think, which is one of the reasons why I think it's only a $10 million.
J.T. O'Donnell (26:10.445)
It's, it's, it's a no, it's stop. Nobody's looking at this from the job secret perspective, which is, you know, I appreciate you letting me be here. They hate career builder and monster. They hate indeed. That's not going to change. The perception is there and there's nothing you're going to do to change that. Okay. Job boards as we know it are going to die. And that's what they are labeled as. And if people can't see that and that the change is coming and how we're going to recruit and connect.
Chad (26:21.03)
I get that.
J.T. O'Donnell (26:38.249)
My gosh, it's adorable, but I wouldn't touch those assets. You can't do anything with them. Let them sunset. You just can't. Job seekers want no part of it. Ask them how they really feel.
Joel Cheesman (26:53.968)
Did I mention the combined revenue of $200 million a year?
J.T. O'Donnell (26:57.549)
It's a drop in the bucket and it's crashing. Let me tell you a story. In 2018, a Fortune 100 company subsidiary hired me to go through their budget. They were spending half a million dollars between Cabir Builder and Monster. I said, go into your ATS system and show me how many hires you got from both of those last year. Goose egg. Half a million dollar goose egg. So I'm sorry, there's a lot of people that just, to hold onto budget, pay for stuff. Not even sure if it works or not.
That $200 million is going to dwindle. That is why they are selling it. And I'm sorry, they were amazing. They had great runs. All the stuff that you recapped about the innovation. Yes, but people innovate and then they don't. And indeed is in a heck of a lot of trouble, a heck of a lot of trouble. If they don't pivot, this is where I give LinkedIn props. LinkedIn has figured out that the futures video has built TikTok for careers, whether you like it or not. That is where that's all going to happen. They've built a billion dollar creator economy for the white collar worker. They have pivoted.
They understand they need to pivot. And so that's the truth. I gosh love you.
Joel Cheesman (27:59.12)
I don't, I don't think, I don't think JT's fallen for the banana in the tailpipe. the, the sad thing is, is this story might be, well, it's not over, but it's close to over. And we've been talking about this, these companies for eight years. And it's kind of sad that we won't be able to talk about them much. There will be a final, like they're done. They're out. Monster.com is now an energy drink URL and they're out and cribbillers just is just.
J.T. O'Donnell (28:01.165)
Absolutely not. No. Not with the people I work with every day. Uh-uh.
J.T. O'Donnell (28:25.505)
Yeah, right.
Joel Cheesman (28:29.604)
That's a bit of melancholy for me. take a quick break and get back to when we come back, we'll talk about indeed the next victim of history.
Chad (28:30.897)
sad.
Chad (28:38.115)
next victim, step up.
Joel Cheesman (28:45.84)
All right guys, watch out paradox indeed is developing conversational AI tools, career scout for job seekers and talent scout for employers. That's creative to simplify the job search and hiring processes. The tools currently in beta testing will be unveiled at indeed future works 2025.
You want some more indeed do's you know you do if you're listening to this show indeed job offer scam texts are on the rise. These scams, which often promise quick cash for product testing or data entry are particularly insidious because they take advantage of people who may be struggling financially. By the way, they also have a new CMO and a new focus on AI with their new CEO Chad. There's a lot of indeed news going on. What are your thoughts?
Chad (29:22.984)
Yes.
Chad (29:33.384)
So new conversational AI, tell me you're five years behind without telling me you're five years behind. This feels like a relic that Chris Hyams left behind for Daco. Anyway, before we dig too deep, what's your reaction on the Chris Hyams being canned story? I mean, my bad, my bad. Deciding to leave story. What's your take?
Joel Cheesman (30:02.7)
yeah, I missed last week to comment on that. I, you know, it's, it's apropos that, Apple's developer day, was, was recent was recently because I think there's a lot of comparisons that you can make between Apple and indeed. So indeed you had some, well, relatively innovative, founders, CEOs, you had Ronnie and Paul. I mean, when I say innovation in our space, means let's copy Google, let's copy Google and make it for jobs. But that was innovation for our space. So it worked.
and then Tim Cook is like, hi, I'm comes in company guy says all the right things. Super nice. Doesn't rock the boat drives them into, incredible growth, a growth period. think when he took over, they had around 300 employees. Now they are who they are today. but the world changed and just like Apple, the world is moving on from a device in your hand. they've
They've tried to do headsets. like they innovation just isn't working in an AI world, with, with what Apple has been famous for, for over a decade. So indeed is that this crossroads of like, Hey, this whole job posting thing was fun or maybe JT would say cute. but the world is changing. moving into AI. moving into a totally different realm. And Chris Himes is not the guy to take you to that place. So, so nice guy, just not.
not the one to take them into where they are going now. And I don't think, I think Deco is a, is an interim guy. I don't think he's the one that's going to be there long-term, but I, but the problem is these jobs suck. Nobody, nobody that knows shit wants to like run a job site. So they're going to have a lot of fun trying like, thank God recruit holdings is a good staffing company because they're going to have to find someone to drive this Turkey. And it's, it's, it's not going to be something a lot of people want to do. So
J.T. O'Donnell (31:42.573)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (31:55.728)
That's, that's my comment on indeed. I think they're at a crossroads or trying to figure out we've, we've talked. In nauseam about the spaghetti they've thrown at the wall, hoping that it sticks. Now they're going to have somebody with hopefully some AI chops to try to throw some, stuff at the wall that does stick. Um, which I think takes us into conversational AI and some of the things that they're doing. interestingly, I was, I was.
Chad (32:03.688)
Nuh-uh.
Joel Cheesman (32:21.646)
I've mentioned this, but I was on a call with a, an executive who's a former indeed, employee. And he said, you know what the biggest threat to indeed is? And I, I think I said programmatic, and he said, Nope, it's not programmatic. the biggest threat it's not LinkedIn. It's paradox. He said, why would you post a job when all the data is there? The paradox can, like, you got it. Right. So, so shockingly.
Chad (32:44.702)
You've got them. You've got them. You've got them.
Joel Cheesman (32:48.964)
Yes. He says that and then indeed launches a conversational AI competitor, I assume, to Paradox who's been doing this thing for 10 plus years. So you tell me who's better at this thing. And I don't think it's easy to do. We've seen chat bots come and go. I don't think it's easy. I Indeed has its work cut out for it. So those are my basic thoughts in terms of where they're going. think, you know, the CMO that they have, you can tell a lot about where a company is going by their new executives, especially when a new CEO comes in.
Chad (32:56.744)
Yeah.
J.T. O'Donnell (32:57.485)
Hmm.
Joel Cheesman (33:18.584)
So, so the new, the new CMO, no experience in, recruiting zip, not like he didn't come from, from Baird or like he doesn't have TMP experience. where he, comes from is, automation platform. worked for the company called Sligo. I believe it's how you pronounce, pronounce it. he says in his, in his updated LinkedIn profile, says, quote, I'm excited to help elevate the brand meeting indeed.
Chad (33:25.96)
Imagine that.
Joel Cheesman (33:47.292)
power growth through AI enabled marketing innovation. So that gives you a little tip of where indeed is going. When he says AI enabled marketing innovation, that's where they're going. This guy would not have taken this job unless they sold him on. We're a lot more than just jobs. We're going to the next phase and we'll have a fun time talking about the next phase of indeed, but they have their work cut out for them.
Chad (34:09.118)
I'll see.
J.T. O'Donnell (34:09.153)
I, yeah. Well, one, they got a pivot, just like I said before. Two, they've got money. And three, it's not easy, you're right, but it's gotten a whole lot easier thanks to AI. I know a company right now that didn't have the money to build their Android app, right? It's hundreds of thousands of dollars two years ago to hire an Android app developer. You can build an iPhone app overnight, right? Now it's being completely built with AI. No developer needed. So when you start to think about what we're going to be able to do,
Chad (34:27.678)
Mm-hmm.
J.T. O'Donnell (34:38.871)
they're going be able to speed up getting there. Like you're right, Paradox doing this for 10 years, amazing. But that first movers advantage, they also spent a lot of money and had to do it a lot longer and harder, you know, than to where we are now. So I don't rule indeed out. I think they have to do something extremely dramatic though, because the job seeker as a whole does not like them. Yes, they're the biggest one. But if your source does not like you, if you can't pivot and get them to not feel like they have to use you.
but they want to use you, right? That's what they have to be looking at. then, you know, it'll be interesting to see how it works, but my two cents.
Chad (35:15.71)
Four points, four points, four points. First off, who's gonna answer a message from Indeed's conversational AI if they're worried about being scammed? It doesn't matter whether it's a text or a messaging app. Searches for Indeed text scams are up over 500%. Talk about shitty timing, right? Talk about shitty timing. Number two.
Joel Cheesman (35:17.391)
Historically, go ahead, Chad.
J.T. O'Donnell (35:32.161)
You are proving my point.
J.T. O'Donnell (35:37.741)
They are not trusted.
Chad (35:41.636)
Indeed, we'll have the same old non agentic tech issues that Monster and CrewBotter had. Yes, they do have the opportunity and they have the money to be able to spin up new tech. The problem is they're talking about conversational AI. Everybody else is already 10 steps ahead of them with agentic. large language models and agentic, right? Number three, as Joel had said,
And we're seeing this over and over and over, not just with with paradox, but with fountain, with gem, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Hiring companies are finally engaging candidates that they've already bought in their CRM and their ATS, which lessens the need to buy more candidates from Indeed. And fourth and final, Indeed has built bad and misguided products like CPSA, CPA, candidate monetization, and trying to spin rate hikes as
healthy budget bullshit, it's all left a bad taste in the entire industry's mouth, including job seekers. Now, will this kill Indeed? No. Will Indeed's control weaken? Most definitely. Will employers smile when they start cutting Indeed's budget? You bet your fucking ass they will. That's the thing. They're not looking at what's actually happening and
Joel Cheesman (36:42.288)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (37:03.676)
What kind of narrative they've been playing. Maybe. I don't know. Maybe that's why Hinds is out on his ass or decided to leave. I don't
Joel Cheesman (37:11.64)
Look, similar to monster when indeed came around, companies are actively wanting to put money in something other than at the time it was monster. Now it's indeed. And Chad and I have talked to multiple big company heads of talent that say we've reduced budget in double figures. and they're looking, they want to do more and, and things like conversation AI are doing that. So I find it hard,
Chad (37:20.53)
Yeah, exactly.
J.T. O'Donnell (37:22.562)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (37:40.408)
If indeed came to me and I'm trying to get off the indeed heroin drip and they go, Hey, we got conversational AI now. I don't think I'm, on board. I'm like, dude, I S I have made a decision to get off your heroin drip a long time ago. I'm not getting back on because you have some new tech and historically. In our space, particularly just because the company launches new stuff because they think it's the future does not mean they're going to get it right. Be known.
Chad probably remembers was monsters sort of foray into social media because social media was hot and monsters are going to be cool. And it just doesn't usually work one because the brand is associated with one thing and they try to switch it up. and then the other thing is they don't have the core competency. They don't have the talent to do it. Job boards and people who sell job postings have a really narrow like competency to like now sell something.
Chad (38:07.678)
Facebook.
Joel Cheesman (38:35.234)
Outside of that is really, really hard. And I don't think you should discount that.
J.T. O'Donnell (38:39.533)
I'll just say one more thing. If I was running an enterprise and I had a big budget and you're not hiring as much right now, I would really be pulling back that Indeed spend and I would start an earmark and say, let's go test every hot new thing out there. Right? You all introduced me to Flakity. We're partnering with Flakity right now. We're getting 98 % net new traffic to directly to companies, career sites. That's interesting. That's all done through video on social media. Right? Like there's so many cool things starting to happen out there that are really legit, that are not a lot of money for you to test.
That's what I would be doing right now. I'd have a total test bed. Let's try 20, 30 different of these startups right now and see what works because they're gonna hit. They're gonna be the next new thing.
Joel Cheesman (39:17.156)
That's cool and sexy, JT. That's right. Well, one final word for indeed.
Joel Cheesman (39:27.184)
Let's go to the tale of two innovators, innovators in quotes, everybody. Our friends at Smart Recruiters has launched an AI powered hiring platform featuring Winston, an agentic AI companion. say streamlines the hiring process for recruiters, candidates, and hiring managers. Meanwhile, Chad, your boy, Josh Bersin is touting Workday's latest innovation dubbed the Workday economy. That's creative.
As big as Workday's marketing department must be. That's what they came up with. he Burson's touting it as quote, a bold new strategy in quote, it's going to quote super fuel Workday's growth and quote super fuel, Chad, not just regular fuel. What are your thoughts on these two innovators?
Chad (39:57.468)
Yeah.
J.T. O'Donnell (39:58.926)
You
Chad (40:07.688)
you
Chad (40:14.024)
So here's a great excerpt from Rich Lewis Jones LinkedIn post, quote, fair play to work day for catching up with the rest of the industry. But if you think this is a new bold strategy, Josh Bersin, and believe it is, you've been living under a fucking rock. I put fucking in there for the last 10 years and only been listening to those who get paid to tell you it is now. End quote. Now, Rich.
Didn't come out and say it, but guys like Josh Bersin aren't just analysts. They're paid content creators. They create narratives and content specifically for clients like Workday. Call it corporate propaganda or whatever the fuck you like, right? It's a great way for a huge company like Workday to get their narrative out. Is that bad? No, but as HR practitioners, it's pretty damned important that you first know this is happening.
and second, have multiple sources in which to educate yourself. Okay, so enough about Workday. Let's stop talking about them and talk a little bit about smartrecruiters versus Workday, right? This is a smart recruiters versus Workday segment, but I don't like that comparison. I think it's more of like an apple to a truckload of oranges, which is why I like throwing in iCims into the mix here. Yes, kids, iCims.
because I think iSIM's announcement this week was incredibly telling. iSIM's announced agentic capabilities with a drum roll please, press release. While SmartRecruiters had a live on stage Apple iPhone unveiling of Winston. Did you see that thing? SmartRecruiters went the iPhone route because it was big, right? So it gives you an idea which company is adding the
Joel Cheesman (41:55.152)
Sorry, a little late on the sound bite, Chad.
Joel Cheesman (42:06.244)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (42:09.764)
agentic me too layers versus a company that's fully embracing tech today by rebuilding their systems for the future. So when we see companies like Google, which we did this week, start shedding search and ad teams and executives from those ad teams and search teams reported buyouts are happening and now focusing squarely on AI and agentic products like Google mass. You can see the importance of throwing out old models.
and retooling for the future and from all three companies we just talked about. SmartRecruiters is the only one I believe who is committed to doing just that. The other two has one selling propaganda. The other one is just dropping press releases, MeToo press releases.
Joel Cheesman (43:00.172)
I love what SmartRecruiters is doing. And by the way, full disclosure, Josh Bersin, SmartRecruiters is a sponsor of the show and we love them.
Chad (43:06.867)
Yeah.
Chad (43:10.379)
We've been on stage with iCims, smartrecruiters. We've never been to work day.
Joel Cheesman (43:14.672)
Work day won't call us back, unfortunately. Work day won't call us back. I just love the play to win attitude. And I particularly love when companies say, you know what, if we're going to be disrupted, we're going to do the disrupting. And so many companies get just set in their ways and their profits and they don't change. And smart recruiters said, you know what, this is the future.
J.T. O'Donnell (43:26.093)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (43:40.88)
We're going to change it. was reminded Chad of a conversation we had with Dan Finnegan in 2019 when he was CEO of, of job bite. said, he said, quote, uh, we felt that the era of the ATS was over and that the opportunity would be the recruiting platform and suite of products that service the entire value chain of recruiting, uh, was a limited window. And that time was now I'm guessing that Dan felt like he wasn't supported in that, in that vision.
Chad (43:45.982)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (43:50.6)
Jump right.
Chad (44:10.014)
Mm.
Joel Cheesman (44:10.106)
which is why he's at in border now. But in 2019, you know, he saw where the world was going and many have not embraced it, but I see smart recruiters embracing it. I think, I think it's fantastic. And I think that. Oddly enough, I I'm starting to see a paradox ads on Google about they are a conversational ATS. And I feel like the new thing now is going to be conversational ATS. And we see Winston.
Chad (44:34.046)
Yeah. Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (44:39.856)
going that route, we see Indeed kind of going that route maybe, and obviously Paradox going that route. And I think part of it is it's harder to value a chat bot or a conversational AI company, but if you can start valuing your company as an ATS, like that becomes something that I can start putting my head around if I'm an investor or buying this thing. So I think this is the wave of where this is going. We covered it first and you can see it in our archives, our chat with Dan Finnegan.
Chad (44:55.294)
platform.
Joel Cheesman (45:09.744)
But this is where I think the business is going. And I think it's fantastic. Rich Lewis Jones. Awesome to call out Bersin and say, quote, people are being influenced by people being paid extortionate amounts of money by big tech businesses to position them as trailblazers buyer. Beware. God bless rich Lewis Jones, who's a VP at smart recruiters for saying this publicly.
Chad (45:18.066)
Ha
Joel Cheesman (45:38.604)
idiots like us Chad say it all the time, but people go, those are dumb ass podcasters don't know shit. So God bless him. I love it. I love this story. Smart recruiters keep keep crushing it, man. I love it.
J.T. O'Donnell (45:49.944)
question for you guys. if I look at the three, smart recruiters is the most nimble, the most agile, not huge. And if you think about it, it's a great time not to be overly huge company in our business because the amount of tech that investment, right? You're nimble. Name one massive company from our space, a workday size and ISIM size that was able to just let go of the debt, accept it, pivot in order to stay going. Name one.
Joel Cheesman (46:01.007)
nimble.
Chad (46:14.43)
Well, think so. Smart Recruiters has about 2500 clients, right? That's still a big, a big pivot for them. Still a big pivot for them. Now Workday, I think if you take a look at Workday, Workday is a bunch of different ecosystems. You've got the piece of shit recruitment piece that's on there. You've got the HCM, you've got pay, you've got all this stuff, right? And then you've got iCims.
J.T. O'Donnell (46:25.909)
Okay, fair.
Chad (46:41.462)
and smart recruiters, which are both, which is why I like that comparison better because they're both applicant tracking system, both in the recruiting talent acquisition side of the house. And that's why I believe the leader makes all of this shit happen. Rebecca Carr was the the chief product officer at smart recruiters, right? She brought in Sharon.
who was the CEO of one of the companies that they acquired. She's now the CPO. She's now the chief product officer. You've got two product people that can see where products going and where the industry is going. With iCIMS, what do you have? You have a company that couldn't go IPO, and now they're trying to look pretty and skinny up to hopefully get acquired. Again, that's my opinion, trying to get acquired. They're having a bean counter situation, much like Monster did.
Right. So they're not going to spend a lot of money to retool smart recruiters is. So, I mean, there are a lot of dynamics that are happening. But to answer your question, smart recruiters, not a small company, not a humongous company, but to make that kind of pivot in the time frame that they did. I was on stage with them in Madrid in February and they just made the fucking pivot. I mean, they just did it. I mean, that's that's amazing. And that's quick.
J.T. O'Donnell (48:01.23)
It's going to be a win. That's what I think more companies have to do. I'm with you. That was the point. You just got to go. You got to go for it. There's no, no more time left. Yeah.
Chad (48:05.085)
Yeah.
Chad (48:08.582)
Yeah, well we saw what it did to Monster and we saw what it did to CareerMotor.
Joel Cheesman (48:09.346)
Rich, Rich, Rich Lewis Jones laying the wood to Josh Burson.
Chad (48:14.622)
Thanks.
Joel Cheesman (48:20.112)
We'll be right back.
Joel Cheesman (48:24.848)
All right, JT, this is right in your wheelhouse, baby. Warm up, warm up, get it warmed up. right. User generated content on platforms like YouTube, TikTok and Instagram will surpass traditional media and add revenue this year for the kids. That's TV, radio, billboards, et cetera, marking a significant shift in media consumption. This change driven by a shift towards digital platforms is impacting traditional media, forcing them to adapt.
to retain advertising income and attract younger audiences. Historic shift, JT, your thoughts.
J.T. O'Donnell (49:01.005)
Oh yeah, mean, the governor predicts $480 billion economy by 2027. Economy, economy, it feeds itself. You know, one of the things that we haven't figured out is that we're going to stop trading time for money. Jobs, as we know it, where you trade for hours, right, is done. Okay. We now need to trade our knowledge for money. If I can solve your $10,000 problem in 10 minutes, you give me $10,000. And once we all started to figure it, the creator economy has been doing that for a while now, haven't they? They've all got that figured out.
but it's now coming to the mainstream, which gets me so excited. I mean, you all have been creators forever. You're it. You're old school. You're OG. You too. And so when you see where it's going and all the ways that you can monetize, right? The diversification of income streams, that's the new income security. Instead of being held by golden handcuffs, one paycheck, trading my time for money, that company can rip it out for me at any time and I am scrambling, right?
Joel Cheesman (49:37.69)
Say more, say more.
Chad (49:38.792)
Huh? What?
Chad (49:49.779)
Mm-hmm.
J.T. O'Donnell (49:59.18)
This, we have hit the tipping point. Everyone is a creator and it's not, people get way down and go, I'm not an influencer. No, you're a context creator, right? Share your knowledge, share your education. I mean, there's a reason why TikTok launched just a month and a half ago, a new knowledge creators fund, okay? Where they will hand pick you and if you're doing videos a minute or longer that are just educational in nature, they're like giving you a huge payout on top of the normal payout.
because they see where it's going, right? So this is so exciting to me because everyone listening to this is a context creator. Everyone could be monetizing multiple different ways besides their day job. And that's where you create this income security that doesn't exist anymore. So, yeah, this girl's all in on this.
Joel Cheesman (50:47.834)
How do traditional companies combat this? Do they acquire? I love the ads on TV that look like a story from a mobile phone. Even the ads look like social media content. Do they buy? What happens?
Chad (50:53.81)
In a choir they hire.
J.T. O'Donnell (50:58.178)
Bye-bye.
J.T. O'Donnell (51:01.591)
So yeah, yeah. think so.
What do mean, how do the companies purchases?
Joel Cheesman (51:08.912)
How does Paramount discuss, like how do they buy the, like somebody's gotta buy Snap at some point, right? Like somebody, like some of these.
J.T. O'Donnell (51:17.073)
right. 100%. Yeah. I mean, you think about it, it would be great. But what you're also seeing is a lot of agencies, right? There's a huge rise in agencies. Why did I start Pro Voice? We already have 60 white collar workers making money signed by our company that we're partnering. Partners are coming to us and saying, hey, we need somebody to talk about this or that or that. Somebody worked for the FBI, a cyber psychologist.
Chad (51:24.286)
Yeah.
Chad (51:32.488)
Mm-hmm.
J.T. O'Donnell (51:44.608)
right there. And so the people that will win will put these agencies together, make it very easy for these companies to come and buy. And if you think about it, it's micro influencing. We already know you don't go pay Kim Kardashian a million dollars. You go pay 100,000 micro influencers, you know, $10,000. You get way better engagement. Right. So we already know the shift is away from the mega influencer down to the micro influencer. So you look at that, you look at the agencies, it is so easy to execute and everybody wins.
Joel Cheesman (52:14.532)
And then how about the AI influencer?
J.T. O'Donnell (52:17.185)
Well, and so that's exciting because there are mobile apps. If none of you have checked out mobile apps like, no, seriously, there's free mobile apps where you can download a video of yourself talking for two minutes and then you can give it a script and it just recreates you. And it's pretty solid as long as you don't use too many hand moments, right? It's like, it's really, really solid. right? Don't be doing that. But, you know, we'll have video authentication. And even then, like people, if the personality is there and the content is there, they don't really care.
Chad (52:40.252)
J.T. O'Donnell (52:46.731)
You know, so it's, we're in a really interesting time right now in terms of the ability to monetize. Any single person listening to this, recruiting HR, you literally could be monetizing as a context creator right now, today. Crazy.
Chad (52:57.43)
Yeah. And I think it's got to be something that's authentic. Number one, if you don't have 25 years in the biz like Joel and I do, right? I mean, we've got 25 years in the biz. That's experience. People are going to pay us for our knowledge, right? If you're a kid who's been in for five years, not so much. So it's got to be something different, right? And you've got to lean into what your strength is, right?
J.T. O'Donnell (53:19.137)
I disagree.
J.T. O'Donnell (53:24.737)
That kid with five years of knowledge has enough knowledge to influence everybody that has less than five years of knowledge and are going to relate to him better than the person that has 25 years. They've already got studies to show this. So you can monetize at any stage that you're at if you choose the right lane and you choose what you're going to monetize about. So, but to your point, lot of very experienced people are missing out right now. You guys got on the train early. So many people out there that can't get paid what they're worth anymore in a traditional job. Get into the freaking creator economy.
Chad (53:45.981)
Yes.
J.T. O'Donnell (53:53.762)
This is your second act where you could be making dumb money, dumb OnlyFans money right now with your knowledge. And that to me is the exciting thing for folks like us, you know?
Chad (54:04.274)
What's important though is they engage an agency. And I know that you're working very hard on that because user generated content is a business. That's pure and simple because if you're not, you've got to treat it like a business. You have to understand your targeted audience. You have to understand your TAM. You have to understand engagement, the tech platforms, marketing message, sales outreach, what you're going to use for that outreach if there's an agency or different mechanisms.
It can be incredibly hard even if you have a million followers, right? You might not be getting all that you could out of that. I mean, it's whenever I talk to people who want to run a podcast or they want to become a quote unquote influencer, I'm like, what is your business model? And that's where they need people to be able to lead them into business models. And that's where agencies come.
J.T. O'Donnell (54:58.901)
Right, right. That's exactly what we do at Pro Voice, right? From the beginning to figuring out what your model is, to making sure that you're monetizing correctly. The truth is you don't need a million followers anymore. It doesn't matter anymore on platforms. The right piece of content goes viral, you will make a lot of money. You don't need a lot of followers to make a of money. What you need, and you are absolutely right, is the right process, the right monetization model, and consistency. A lot of people give up. I did 10 videos, it didn't work. It doesn't work that way. This is like brushing your teeth. This needs to be habit. And you all know that, and that's where most people give
Chad (55:05.052)
Yeah.
Chad (55:23.666)
Yeah. Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (55:27.78)
Well, you may not need a million people, but you may need a thousand penises. Let me introduce you to Bonnie Blue. Speaking of OnlyFans, if you don't know Bonnie, Bonnie was famous for having sex with a thousand guys in a pretty short period of time. Well, even, even OnlyFans has a line that you can't cross. Bonnie has recently been banned on OnlyFans for wanting to do the following. Check it out.
Joel Cheesman (56:32.366)
going too far but never going too far are the dad jokes everybody.
Chad (56:33.694)
Oof.
Joel Cheesman (56:40.218)
Guys, have you heard Grindr's launching a new app for roosters? Grindr's launching a new app for roosters. It's called Any Cockle Do. Any Cockle Do. Happy Father's Day, everybody. We out.
Chad (56:54.578)
We out.
J.T. O'Donnell (56:55.308)
We out.
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