CNET's Katherine Watt: Tackling the Jobless Jungle

What do ghosting, bogus job numbers, and your overpriced degree have in common? They're all part of the gauntlet job seekers are running in today’s economy.

On this episode of The Chad & Cheese Podcast, we welcome CNET’s Katherine Watt, author of “Trying to Find a Job? In This Economy? You Need to Follow These Rules.” She joins us to break down:

🔹 Why the official 4.2% unemployment rate is laughably disconnected from reality

🔹 Why “just apply more!” is terrible advice

🔹 How companies are laying off workers and hoarding power like Gollum with a LinkedIn account

🔹 Why optimizing your resume for AI is a crapshoot, and ghost jobs are the new catfishing

🔹 And why the "hustle economy" might be less about passion and more about survival

If you’re frustrated, broke, and staring into the resume void—this one’s for you. Katherine brings the data, Chad brings the snark, and Joel brings coupons for free Chalupas.

🎧 Listen now, before another job post vanishes into the ATS abyss.

PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION

Joel Cheesman (00:24.846)

OHHHH YEEEEAH!

Joel Cheesman (00:29.73)

This is the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co host Joel Cheesman writing shotgun as always Chad Sowash is in the house as we welcome Catherine watt, a money writer for CNET Catherine Watt, welcome to HR is most dangerous podcast.

Chad (00:36.187)

Sup?

Katherine Watt (00:45.319)

Thank you for having me.

Chad (00:46.555)

She's also JJ in TJ's sister. You didn't know that?

Katherine Watt (00:50.757)

Yeah.

Chad (00:56.753)

Wait a minute, she's not? She's not?

Joel Cheesman (00:58.062)

Leave the jokes to me, my friend. Leave the jokes to me.

Katherine Watt (00:58.364)

No, but I... I'm not TJ and JJ's sister, but I am a descendant of James Watt, who invented the steam engine. So Watt's full electricity is...

Chad (01:08.726)

that's impressive.

Joel Cheesman (01:09.378)

Wasn't he under Reagan, the ecology, James Watt? I'm going way back in time, but okay, different.

Chad (01:17.913)

Not the same guy, yeah, not even close to the same guy. Steam engine, Reagan, not the... Leave history to me.

Katherine Watt (01:20.253)

I'm missing you.

Joel Cheesman (01:26.126)

All right, Catherine, a lot of our listeners, viewers won't know who you are. So give us a little bit about what makes Catherine tick.

Katherine Watt (01:26.415)

Thank

Katherine Watt (01:36.951)

what makes Katherine tick? Bad headlines, people walking slow on the sidewalk, poor subway etiquette.

Joel Cheesman (01:49.122)

I didn't say what ticks you off. said what makes you tick. Nuance. Yeah, that is good stuff. Give us the elevator pitch on you.

Chad (01:51.633)

Although that's all good to know. Although that's all good to know.

Katherine Watt (01:52.125)

Hello, what makes me tick?

Katherine Watt (01:57.361)

What makes me tick? Yeah, so I have been covering the economy for the past few years. I started out really just grinding in the housing market area and so really focused on mortgage rates in particular, federal reserve, yeah, fascinating stuff. But over the past two years, I've been transitioning into more economy-based reporting and really

Chad (02:12.379)

exciting.

Katherine Watt (02:24.801)

My goal is to be creating content that is not for the people in the high level offices on Wall Street. It's for people that did not study economics. I didn't study economics. So as I've been teaching myself, I want to be creating content that is understandable and is clear to how it affects you. And I think that's an area where.

Chad (02:45.137)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Watt (02:49.565)

The playing field hasn't always been level of some, you could read the Wall Street Journal and not understand what they're talking about. And so I really want to cut through that jargon because it's frustrating to me when it just seems so obtuse.

Chad (02:55.64)

yeah.

Joel Cheesman (02:56.752)

The Main Street, if you will. The Main Street, yeah.

Chad (03:06.735)

Yeah, well, you're so how do you get from, you know, to the CNET economics desk, right? How do you get that beat per se? Where did you start? How did you get to that beat? And then we're not going to be talking about that as much today. We're to be talking about job search, the landscape, those types of things and how they all come together. But a little bit about you, though, how do you how did you get to the economics beat?

Katherine Watt (03:33.501)

Honestly, I wish I had a story. I really just got placed there out of college. And when I tell you that when I started, I did not know what a HELOC was. it really just, I had an internship, signed a full-time offer. And my first beat was actually covering health and wellness as an editor. And so.

Chad (03:39.683)

Okay.

Chad (03:49.162)

huh.

Chad (03:55.141)

Okay.

Katherine Watt (03:57.143)

I was terrified and I ended up here and ended up really liking it. because I love doing research, love data, and that has all of those aspects in this coverage. So I wish there was some fascinating story, but I kind of was plopped here.

Chad (04:08.635)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (04:16.216)

Well, nothing, nothing says thrills and chills like stagflation. So let's, let's party, baby. Let's go. Let's do this.

Chad (04:20.698)

Hahahaha

Chad (04:25.585)

Yeah, I mean, one of the things that we try to get into our listeners brains is that the workforce is the economy. Without the workforce, you have no economy. So what you're doing is you're actually you started the economy and you're working your way down. And the article that actually just came out this week is called, Why Can't I Get a Job Right Now? Nine Expert Tips to Stand Out to Recruiters. I don't know if you'd call me an expert and I've been quoted so that's suspect. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (04:51.736)

She quoted you for the article chat, so you're clearly an expert.

Chad (04:54.863)

Yeah, whatever. From ghosting to burnout, here's how you stay sane, good luck kids, and get hired in a brutal, brutal job market. So what landed you with this? Because you're talking about housing, stagflation, and now you're like, wait a minute, this job market sucks.

Joel Cheesman (05:12.792)

To ghosting, housing to ghosting, yeah.

Katherine Watt (05:15.981)

Yeah, definitely. So it started with everything that we cover on the economy basis. A lot of it is data. And there's a pretty big disconnect when you look at the numbers and you see unemployment low. I think it's up 4.2 right now. And historically, yes, low. But then you'll see these headlines saying robust job market. Everything's great. No need to cut interest rates. And then you

Chad (05:44.453)

Lies!

Katherine Watt (05:45.629)

And then you ask anyone, or if you just scroll on LinkedIn. And my editor and I have just been sending these posts to each other back and forth, like, look at this, look at this. All these stories of people who are desperate to work and are having no luck. And it really struck me at this time of year because people are graduating from college, they're graduating from high school, and especially leaving college, do you think, with this degree?

you're told it should be easy to find a job and the reality is very opposite. And so we wanted to do two things here. And one is just make it clear that your feelings of that struggle are very real. And here are the strategies that you can use. We don't just want to be doom and gloom and say this all sucks, which it does.

I think we could probably all agree there's enough depressing news out there right now. so at least Korea giving some.

Joel Cheesman (06:46.104)

What do you, what do you think is the disconnect? mean, we get headlines about, you know, unemployment rate is still 4 % ish. you know, inflation is under control. Everything seems rosy in the headlines, but I think we agree with you. Like the, the stories on the street is if I'm right out of college, it's really hard to get a job. If I'm even Gen X where I should be making the most money, I'm being replaced by younger workers who can use AI.

Chad (07:10.289)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (07:13.326)

automation, of course, we're hearing a lot about. what, you know, what, what can you, can you, like, crystallize it for us? What is going on with the numbers that the government's giving us and what people are saying on the street?

Chad (07:15.227)

Well, they're cheaper too. Yeah.

Katherine Watt (07:26.575)

Yeah, of course. I think there's two aspects here that one, the disconnect on an emotional level is that I could say unemployment's at 4.2%. What does that mean? Like what it means to people is how they feel about the job market. And if they can't get a job or they can get a well-paying job or find, you know, gainful employment, that's not a healthy labor market to them, regardless of unemployment rate. The other part of it is that the way data is collected,

by the BLS and reported really does not reflect what the situation is actually like. And so I often refer to LICEP, which is Gene Lovewig's research center, where he measures the true rate of unemployment, the true quality of life index. And I believe his figures would show that the true rate of unemployment is actually something closer to 25%. And I've spoken to him a few times, and it's really striking.

Joel Cheesman (08:21.134)

Whoa, ho.

Chad (08:22.961)

you

Katherine Watt (08:25.457)

because it has a much broader view of the data. And I think he's doing some amazing stuff there. And so that's on the statistical side of things. There is a genuine disconnect. And we're even now starting to see questions about the quality of all the reports we're getting, inflation data, like we got this morning. And so there's a disconnect on both ends there.

Chad (08:51.505)

So the BLS data is always been, it's been suspect for a long time because it's looking backwards 30 days. There are companies in our space like Aspen Tech Labs and Linkup. I mean, in just a ton of like, I think Lightcast even does it, but they're all focused on jobs that are available right now, right? So it's like real time data, what's open, what industries, et cetera, et cetera. And

Joel Cheesman (09:13.389)

Yeah.

Chad (09:17.805)

Kind of to answer I think Joel's question if they shared those real numbers Joel, it's called mutiny. It's called rebellion It's called bullshit right there. They would be calling bullshit on what's actually happening. Yes. Yes Exactly. Exactly. So, you know, it's it's kind of like trying it sounds like trying to keep people Somewhat at bay even though they feel it

Joel Cheesman (09:23.843)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (09:27.874)

Pitchforks and Frankenstein. Yeah, that's okay.

Katherine Watt (09:39.663)

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I will say there are pieces of data that do show this pain that we're feeling and people kind of discount them. So whether that's ADP numbers, whether that's, you know, consumer confidence, one thing that is pretty important is hiring. Hiring has slowed down and we can see that that's clear as day. so. Yeah, people don't really.

Chad (09:46.449)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (09:57.659)

Yes.

Chad (10:02.308)

Layoffs are up.

Katherine Watt (10:06.621)

highlight that as much because they focus on the big number, the CPI, the unemployment rate. But that's significant. there's other research from other companies that people who have been out of work in 2024 are still looking for work now. so jobless claims, also continuing jobless claims. There are ways that you can see this weakness. I just don't think it's being highlighted. And the people.

Chad (10:08.176)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (10:35.8)

What's your sense? What's your sense? Because I think it's blue collar and white collar and maybe no collar. What sort of your take on is everyone feeling the pain? Are there spots where there is sort of a healthy labor market? What did you find?

Katherine Watt (10:36.221)

on.

Katherine Watt (10:48.765)

I think there's pain being felt across the spectrum. If you look online, there are people who are saying they can't even get a job at a fast food restaurant. I've talked to people that have well established in their careers and they never expected to be out of work and be out of work for six months. So I think it's ranging across white collar to blue collar to no collar, I think.

Chad (11:02.331)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Watt (11:16.081)

When you see companies much like the Fed in a wait and see period, they're also in this wait and see and that has theirs. They're, they don't have the incentive to go and invest like we saw in, you know, the hiring boom around the pandemic. So they're going to protect their profits. And ultimately that hurts the people who have just invested.

Joel Cheesman (11:22.606)

Tariffs.

Katherine Watt (11:40.933)

and taken on massive amounts of debts to get college degrees, that's hurting so many people.

Chad (11:46.811)

Feels like the perfect storm in a bad way from the standpoint of we're pushing migrants out who are doing incredibly important jobs for the supply chain. Then we're pushing hundreds of thousands of federal employees out. We've got AI that are pushing, again, more white collar people out. And all those white collar individuals are not gonna go pick tomatoes. They're not gonna go work the docks. They're not gonna drive semi.

So you've got that happening. Then you've got kids coming out of school who are deeply in debt. So it just seems like this perfect storm of, shit.

Joel Cheesman (12:25.91)

Yeah, Chad, but the government says that they want to put in little screws and iPhones. So I think if we just get that back, we'll be fine. We'll be fine.

Chad (12:30.661)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, okay.

Katherine Watt (12:33.477)

Yeah, once you build the factories first, yeah. You know, it definitely is the perfect storm. I mean, there's a massive influx of really talented people in the labor market and very few roles available. so the layoffs, the mass federal layoffs, shouldn't have happened, but they couldn't have come at a worse time because there's just so much uncertainty. yeah, and the part with

Chad (12:48.283)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (12:59.899)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Watt (13:03.415)

know, losing such a key part of our workforce is where there are fears about the economy slowing down, you know, we're starting to see that in the house.

Joel Cheesman (13:12.046)

You have an interesting perspective because you're in the mortgage space, the real estate and what's going on there. Chad and I, from afar, when COVID hit and money was free, everyone's buying homes. I'm going to live in Vermont and work for a company in San Francisco. You have an interesting perspective, I think, from the work from home, where mortgages are going. There's this whole phenomenon of

Katherine Watt (13:23.236)

Yeah.

Chad (13:33.915)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (13:37.806)

No one's leaving their job. used to be the great resignation. Now it's the great stay. where you sit with such an expertise in mortgages and real estate, what are you seeing in terms of the job market and where you live kind of every day?

Chad (13:42.597)

cycles.

Katherine Watt (13:52.253)

Mm-hmm, right. I mean, there is, like you said, with the great stay, we're also seeing that with mortgage rates. That's the lock-in effect. So people who got those mortgages in 2020, 2021, when they were below 3%, congrats to them, honestly. They can't afford to...

Chad (14:00.891)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Watt (14:13.837)

move somewhere else and take on a new mortgage that's double that rate, especially considering that home prices have went up astronomically and are not going to be coming down, even if they're slower in how they're increasing. And so I think people are feeling really boxed into a corner in terms of where they can go to work. And as these return to office mandates are kind of spreading, mean, we're going to start to see that at some point people do need to.

buy and sell homes because they don't have a choice. They're getting married, they're having kids, they're getting divorced. And so you do see some of those transactions happening, but I mean, if you can afford and you can't afford to move and you don't have to, I think that's putting a lot of pressure on people. And that's why we're not seeing, we haven't had like a good spring home buying season in years, and this year is not going to bring.

Joel Cheesman (15:05.283)

And employers don't mind that you're stuck where you are, because then you can't leave, right?

Katherine Watt (15:08.527)

Yeah.

Chad (15:08.857)

God no. Well, and they don't have to give you raises and they don't have to, I mean, they don't have to do anything to be quite frank.

Katherine Watt (15:14.203)

Yeah. And there's also that fear of layoffs. you, you know, I mean, they're happening and in certain industries like tech or media, media, especially, there's always that kind of fear. You're going to be less likely to want to take on a big purchase, refinance your mortgage. If you were to 3%, I don't know why you would be refinancing now. But, you know, there's also that pressure that people don't feel like they have the

Chad (15:21.722)

Hmm.

Katherine Watt (15:41.789)

Like in a real estate situation, there's a buyer's market and there's a seller's market. There's also like the hiring. Right now it's clear. I think employers always kind of have the upper hand, but it feels very starkly employer's market and a seller's market.

Chad (15:58.319)

Yeah, yeah. Okay, so let's go into an extension of the article, right? We've got Katherine here. She wrote the article. I'm sure she has even more questions that she would like to dig into, but we do too, Katherine. We do too. So you picked these nine focus areas. Was that pretty much because the feedback that you got back, you distilled it down, and that's pretty much how you picked it? Okay.

Katherine Watt (16:05.575)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Watt (16:18.557)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Watt (16:26.437)

Yeah, pretty much. As I talked to various people, I wanted to get there. I mean, there's a lot of boilerplate answers out there. You could make a list of 45 tips. You can make a list of three tips. But I did want it to be directly from these experts, not just me spewing stuff as someone who is employed and not looking for a job. I wanted that to be real. I mean, some of the tips, networking, that everyone would suggest that, right?

Chad (16:31.441)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (16:35.792)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (16:54.496)

As old as time networking.

Katherine Watt (16:56.253)

But I think especially, I think about my parents if they had to get back into the labor market today and they had to go through optimizing their resume for ATS, that would be a brain shock to them. And so I think there are a lot of people that don't know about that or its prevalence, even if it's not that new of a technology.

Chad (16:56.261)

Yes.

Chad (17:02.629)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (17:17.617)

Well, let's go ahead and dig into that, because that's your second point. Optimize your resume for automated software. I don't know how many people in our industry, their brains would blow up if they heard you say that. Because it's so, and here's why, it's so hard because you don't know what system you're actually applying into. And there are so many different applicant tracking systems. Not to mention there are so many point solutions that fit on top of the applicant tracking systems.

So I mean and that's hard then you've got workday who's now in court because they're discriminating because of their AI Which probably wasn't AI in the first place. But anyway, there's a lot of just crazy mixed up shit But to be able to say optimize your resume for for an automated system I mean, that's that's difficult. It's it's it's very difficult to be able to game the system, but it is

Joel Cheesman (18:06.924)

Yeah, it's, it's become beat, beat the computer, beat the computer to get a job.

Chad (18:12.375)

And that's where your first point was, know, quality over quantity. You're seeing people go in and literally apply and even use some of these AI systems to be able to apply for a thousand jobs a day. Right. So you can do these different things and you're hoping that that AI can figure out the best way for the system, whatever system that whatever applicant track system that is to be able to to actually get you in the door.

Katherine Watt (18:25.799)

Yeah.

Chad (18:40.783)

But to be quite frank right now, it's a toss up. I mean, that's hard for job seekers to be able to give them one way to go and optimize your resume. It just can't do it. It's hard.

Katherine Watt (18:54.895)

Yeah, and you know, I had we had cut down that section a lot because we had very specific stuff. But the point is, you can't really give that specific advice because then everyone will do the same thing. I mean, it is as Daniel's out told me, it's not about beating the computer. It's really trying to work with it. And if you know how to use these systems, whether you're using

Chad (18:59.459)

I'm sure.

Chad (19:08.271)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Watt (19:23.837)

TATTPT, if that's back up and running again, I think it was out yesterday, or you're using a service to help you optimize. I mean, you really still do need to put in the elbow grease and know what the job description is. But I think you also can't fly blind and just hope your resume fits because you think you're qualified for the job.

Joel Cheesman (19:45.998)

You talk to a wide range of, guess, generations for the article. Give us a sense of our younger people sort of doing this automated lazy apply thousands of applications versus what maybe older people like us are doing. Is everyone doing the same thing? Like, what did you find in your research in terms of generation breakdown?

Katherine Watt (19:50.94)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Watt (20:07.739)

I didn't find a huge difference across generations. I imagine that maybe there is much higher usage among younger generations of AI and things like that. But I would also probably argue that people that have been in school and have been handing in AI-generated essays and papers have learned that teachers and professors have their own ways of spotting that. And they've probably felt that backfire on them before. And so I think that's an interesting side of the coin that

Chad (20:26.555)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Watt (20:37.118)

People don't always talk about they think that younger generations are lazier, but they might just be like.

Joel Cheesman (20:42.734)

Could there be more automation with the older folks than the younger folks? Because they have that experience? Interesting.

Katherine Watt (20:46.671)

It depends. yeah, I mean, the people that I've talked to in the older range who are later on in their career are using these AI platforms because I mean, especially when you've been out of work for months at a time, there's no doubt that you haven't been Googling, what am I doing wrong? And there's no doubt that you're coming across that ATS things exist. And so of course, you're going to try it if you're

Chad (20:59.569)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Watt (21:15.643)

if you haven't before and that's not working for you.

Chad (21:18.639)

Yeah, I think the biggest differentiation that I've seen, Joel, is Xers or I don't know, boomers or even look for jobs anymore. But Xers and millennials are more apt to use desktop versus mobile. You got the kids that are out there and they're using their mobile apps to be able to do that. And it's just what you feel comfortable with. yeah, mean, and for me, it's funny because we talk to employers all the time and employers talking about

job seekers gaming the system using AI. It's like, wait a minute, time out. We just had a long discussion about you using AI, right? So this isn't, it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander. There shouldn't be anything wrong with that. And to be quite frank, if they're not lying on the resume, right? If they are meeting the requirements of the job and that's what they're saying, then who cares if they use Chad GBT, Chad GBT, or even Joel GBT, right? It doesn't matter.

Joel Cheesman (22:14.734)

That's a tech no one needs to be using, Chad, just so you know. Which makes me think of the duality of ghosting, right? How many recruiters, applicants, they don't message me back. Well, guess what, dude? You've been doing the same to them for decades, like, and now you're complaining about it. What did you find about ghosting, Catherine? I get some thoughts on that, I know.

Chad (22:17.307)

Yeah. It's full of fart jokes, Yeah.

Chad (22:33.937)

learn from you, Dad.

Katherine Watt (22:36.26)

Yeah, ghosting is super prevalent and I mean, it does happen on both sides, but obviously it's way more painful if you're the one that is looking for a job. I think there's a figure that 40 % of people are experiencing ghosting and they're applying to more jobs. Which is a staggering number. Yeah, I mean, just also what the people I've talked to, they just want to like a rejection email.

Chad (22:42.353)

Mm.

Joel Cheesman (22:55.662)

We can do better than that, employers. My God, 40%.

Chad (22:58.558)

yeah.

Joel Cheesman (23:04.056)

Yeah.

Katherine Watt (23:04.253)

They're not looking for the informational interview. They just want to know. It is a strong closure. So just tell me if I didn't get the role or the interview, and don't leave me hanging for months on end. And then you get a random automated email two years later that you didn't get the role. mean, it's painful. I think employers do owe applicants at least that if they're going to say that they can't use AI.

Joel Cheesman (23:31.406)

And hello with AI, there's no reason why they can't have some sort of a custom like, thanks for playing. Uh, but we went, we went a different direction. Well, yeah, I mean, before I remember the old postcards, I would get in the mail like, thanks for applying. Here's a coupon for a free Chalupa while you're, while you're there.

Katherine Watt (23:35.057)

night.

Chad (23:37.655)

even before AI.

Katherine Watt (23:41.021)

Now.

Chad (23:49.009)

That's why you always apply to the taco bells.

Joel Cheesman (23:50.21)

That's why I only applied to Taco Bell for the coupons, but that's a different podcast.

Chad (23:56.667)

So digging into this, Catherine, is there anything that you wanted to dig into with a couple of old souls like ours? Joel's is more of an old soul than mine. I said your soul, I didn't say. That's a good thing. Yeah, that's okay. Anything from your side that you would like to know?

Katherine Watt (24:06.333)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (24:09.025)

You're older than me just for the record. so yes.

Katherine Watt (24:18.621)

Yeah, definitely. I was kind of curious. The last time I was looking for a job was in the pandemic. So I obviously felt like when mortgage rates were really low, it was a little bit easier, at least for me. How has the job market really changed since then with the normalization of remote work? Maybe it's de-normalizing now. How has that really changed hiring practices?

Chad (24:25.147)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (24:46.478)

it has created an incredible amount of volatility, uncertainty, fear, and doubt. I think that we've, we've moved to a place where I just want a job in X to, want a job in X in this location at this company. So to the, like to get that right. Is really challenging for people because a lot of people just want a job. Like ideally I want to do this here and, and, and for this amount of money. And so

You want that, but then you also have this, like we said, perfect storm of competition. Companies are like putting everything on pause. There are fewer recruiters than there ever used to be. companies to their, to their defensive, they're trying to figure out how do we automate things with fewer recruiters and what does that look like? And so it becomes a situation where. Zig, when everyone else is zagging and I think.

I think it's a fool's errand to think that if I can just apply to jobs and if I word my resume correctly, that I'm going to get through the filters and magically get a job. think, call me an old soul, that's fine. But there's a lot to be said for old fashioned networking, getting on LinkedIn, connecting with people. We had a great interview with someone searching for a job. Her strategy was, I'm going to create content on LinkedIn. I'm going to put that I'm open for work.

I'm going to connect with people at companies that I find interesting and I might want to work with, build a connection and then like look for job opportunities. That's not what most people do, but that is very effective. So when I give advice for searching for a job and it's easier to create content than ever before, uh, with, AI tools, like pick a topic that's timely, write an opinion about it, put your own spin on it and put it on LinkedIn. Inevitably people are going to, going to engage.

find you interesting, want to give you a job. So that's where I think the magic, the humaneness is more important than ever before. Even though we keep talking about automation and tools and blasting your shit everywhere, going back to the basics, there's a lot to be said for that in my opinion.

Chad (26:45.584)

Yeah.

Chad (26:50.832)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (26:54.747)

Well, there's an individual who's looking for branding jobs and you know how they've got the open to network or open little frame. Well, she put desperate on hers. I mean, she received a ton of posts that were written about her, people that were pointing back to her.

Joel Cheesman (27:03.266)

Hope and work.

Katherine Watt (27:04.997)

Yeah.

Chad (27:17.209)

And again, that was more branding than anything else. And one of the things that I think that if you could say to any job seeker that's out there today is that, yes, it's important to work on your resume. Yes, it's important to go through the process. Yes, it's incredibly important to network. But what will always, I wouldn't want to say make you recession proof, but to make you more likely to be recession proof is your brand. People want to be able to buy into your brand and who you are.

And they won't see that on a resume, right? If they see that in a short video, if they see that in posts, if they see all these different things and you're in a specific industry, that's another point, is that Joel and I have been in this same industry for 25 years. If you have individuals who jump around industry to industry, it's really, really hard to build networks. You build like many ecosystems that aren't connected in most cases.

So, you know, to be focused, to be disciplined, to look for that industry, and it doesn't have to be right out of the gate, because I was in radio before I actually got here, but it doesn't have to be right out of the gate. To be able to be disciplined and focused so that you can build that network, because that network isn't just for now, it's four five years from now, 10 years from now, 20 years from now, when experts like us are looking for jobs.

Katherine Watt (28:41.659)

Yeah. And I think that raises an interesting point for the younger generations. I think they both have an upper hand here because they perhaps are more tech savvy and are they know about brand building, right? Because they're, yeah, I've checked my math. And they know about influencer culture. They know about the importance of self-branding, but they also are less practiced in the art of networking, I would say. I mean, they don't want to get on the

Chad (28:52.815)

You shut your mouth.

Joel Cheesman (29:06.658)

No shit.

Katherine Watt (29:09.025)

to call and make a doctor's appointment. And COVID really stunted that. mean, many people have never even been to an in-person job interview. And so the idea of going for a coffee chat that's not virtual, getting an actual cup of coffee, that can be really intimidating. And I think they can not hide behind the online applications, but it's a lot more instant gratification to fire off 50 applications in one day than it is to do a cold outreach email.

Joel Cheesman (29:10.018)

Yeah.

Chad (29:18.086)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Watt (29:37.821)

and really present yourself that way. And so I think, especially for younger generations, that's probably where they're challenging.

Chad (29:37.925)

Mm-mm.

Joel Cheesman (29:45.686)

But guess what? That's an opportunity because if fewer people are doing it, then you have a greater opportunity to cut through the clutter and do the thing, do the face to face. And look, there's a conference for everything. Local conferences, regional, national, global. I would venture to say that if you were a young person and called any conference that's within the realm of your expertise and said, Hey, I'm a

Katherine Watt (29:58.396)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (30:11.148)

recent grad, I want to get in this. don't, you I don't have a lot of money or job. Like, could I, can I get a scholarship to come or like, can I just, I would guarantee you most conferences would say, sure, come and then have your resume, have your, have you be prepared and start networking, start having conversations. And most of the things that happen in conferences happen after all the PowerPoint presentations and the keynote speaking, make sure that you're doing that stuff because that's where deals happen.

Chad (30:37.711)

Yeah. Yeah. We also have a really good friend of ours, JT O'Donnell, who is big on hustle culture. And she really believes that there's going to be or there's developing or evolving in a hustle culture kind of gig economy, where you don't just have one job, you have, you know, several jobs.

Katherine Watt (30:39.527)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Chad (31:04.721)

And she because she's an influencer has like 1.4 million followers on tik-tok She's also created an influencer agency and so to be able to to really look at her vision for what she's done for herself and the actual revenue stream she'd been able to make for herself and then to be able to go ahead and help push that out of the market do you see that as kind of like just a

a short gap solution, or do you think that that's really how the market's moving where it's definitely not going to be we're going to have a job like our grandparents did for 40 years, right, and get a pension. Those days are gone. So do you think that it's going to be more of kind of like side hustles along with part-time jobs and whatnot?

Katherine Watt (31:55.687)

I mean, at this point, considering how high the cost of living is and the fact that wages aren't keeping pace, it almost feels like a necessity for people to have side gigs if they can. I mean, some people, they're like, I'm already working three jobs just to pay my rent. yeah, but I mean, I have always tried to be doing side gigs since I was a kid. And then still in my 20s, I'm walking dogs, I'm taking babysitting jobs wherever I can because like you said, I mean, I don't think you can ever be recession proof, but I mean.

Chad (32:02.289)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (32:07.182)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Watt (32:24.965)

especially in a very uncertain economy there. And if you see, can make money online doing influencer stuff or good old fashioned babysitting. mean, especially now, I think that's worth looking into.

Joel Cheesman (32:37.422)

I tried babysitting and no one would hire me. don't, I don't know why. I don't know why. You'll get me set.

Katherine Watt (32:43.195)

I'll give you some pointers.

Chad (32:44.193)

Yeah, I don't want to go too deep into that one.

Joel Cheesman (32:52.23)

The gig economy, you bullish on that or has it been sort of less? And one the things I think you also brought up sort of upscaling or learning. And I think it deserves sort of talking about if you have something you're passionate about, the ways to learn more and get credentials and badges, whether that's LinkedIn or wherever else. mean, you kind of dove into that. What did you find? Because I think that's sort of a new way.

Katherine Watt (33:02.992)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (33:18.712)

that people can get opportunities by getting some new certifications.

Katherine Watt (33:23.247)

Yeah, I wouldn't say I'm bullish on gig economy. I think it's been here. It'll be here to stay. don't know how. It really depends on where the economy goes. But in terms of upscaling, I do think that's a really great way to be filling gaps on your resume, especially if you're long-term unemployed. I mean, it shows that you're self-directed, that you're proactive, that you're willing to put in that time. mean, and this is something that you

can do and probably especially should be doing while you're still employed. And so for example, in my role, I've found I really like data visualization. I'll be making graphics on Canva, but I don't have any formal training. But there are courses that I can take and that have been I've started taking to kind of really establish my skill set in that area. And that has really nothing to do with my current job, but I want to be able to include that on my resume in the future. And so.

I think that is probably where people, in addition to networking, should be really focused on building their skills. And at the bottom of my article, I included a very long list of different free online resources that you can kind of explore. And yeah, you should be learning about AI if you haven't already used it, but there are so many if you can learn to code. One of my goals for the year is to be a lot more proficient in HTML, even though there is AI now.

I think that networking is where people should really be focusing their time.

Chad (34:50.449)

So on the upskilling and employee development side of the house, we talked in the green room about yesterday, we talked to Patrick McGee, the author of Apple in China. He's an economist. And one of the things that he was able to uncover is that Apple is spending $55 billion a year in China training their employees in China. We don't have that kind of reciprocation in the US. And what

seems to have happened since trickle down economics and Reagan and all that happy horseshit that happened back in the 80s. It's really trickled down in a bad way for us because we're not seeing companies spend money on developing the community that they live in. Number one, which is their workforce and they're waiting for government, To be able for corporate charity to be able to do that for them.

Right. But yet, but yet we've got Apple spending $55 billion a year in China to skill, upskill, develop their people. And they're taking great minds from, you know, the U.S. and other areas to be able to do that.

What the hell and when can we finally figure out that that is the model and we had that model before, by the way. That's the model that we have to get back to. We have to train our people for what they're ready for. And why do we do that? Because if we have trained people, they're gonna be more efficient. They're gonna be more proficient. They're gonna be up to the job much faster, which means more revenue, right? And that's what capitalism is about. Am I wrong?

mean, why aren't we spending money on our people and also our communities?

Katherine Watt (36:32.847)

No, you have

Katherine Watt (36:37.211)

Yeah, I mean, a two week onboarding, some of them are shorter, some of them are one day onboarding to a new role. I mean, you're going through some really standard template PowerPoints. You're not, you know, on the job training that really just starts when you actually have your responsibilities. And I think that's a disservice, especially to the younger generations or also people that are coming back to the workforce after being out for a long time. They're not they don't have these own like.

opportunities. That was one of the questions I wanted you guys to talk about, the importance of that and whether you see any hope for that return. If people aren't hiring, will they at least reinvest some money towards, you know, providing those learning experiences for their employees?

Joel Cheesman (37:22.358)

you

Chad (37:22.691)

Yeah, I don't see it in this country unless it's forced. Unless it's forced. And to be quite frank, the reason why Apple, obviously they were doing that is because they knew they could get cheaper labor. They knew that the materials to make the phones were there. So it made it much easier. mean, just from an economic and a supply chain standpoint, it just made sense, right?

from our standpoint when we're sitting back and we're waiting for the gate and they know that China's not going to give them any money. They know that China's not going to do what the United States will do and give them that charity or that tax break or what have you. until we have an administration that's in place that holds these organizations and CEOs feet to the fire, I don't see that. And you even said earlier that wages aren't staying up with inflation or

And, yet CEO wages since 1978 have gone up 1300%, 1300 % where everybody else is at 14%. Right? So.

Katherine Watt (38:22.194)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Watt (38:27.087)

Mm-hmm. I think you see it in small pockets. They're starting to do some trainings for people who are graduating high school, and they want them to join into the construction industry. yeah, we need more of that, but we also need more accountants and things like that. And yeah, it's one of those areas where you have to make the investment, even though you won't see the immediate return. I think about that in terms of like,

Joel Cheesman (38:37.015)

trades.

Katherine Watt (38:56.881)

making sure broadband is widely available across the country. You won't see an immediate return on investment, but down the line, you're connecting more people, you're boosting local economies.

Joel Cheesman (39:07.884)

I would, I would say companies are way more focused on how do we get rid of people than they are? How do we retrain and get people back into these jobs until, until we realized that, until they realized robots don't eat hamburgers and who are we going to sell this stuff to? But as long as our shareholders and everyone, everyone else is, hitting the table for that. My last thing to you, Catherine, you talk a lot about speed, you know, speed to apply speed to sort of communicate.

Chad (39:15.089)

which is the antithesis of actual good performance.

Katherine Watt (39:21.702)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (39:35.094)

What sort of tools or tips or things did you find of how job seekers can like be Johnny on the spot when something comes available?

Katherine Watt (39:43.101)

Yeah, I would say job alerts for sure, set up multiple and not just for like, let's say you have a job alert for editor, maybe also have content specialists, different ones and be checking regularly. mean, it's painfully boring and that is sort of the rule of the game. I mean, with such a competitive market, you'll see a job posted and an hour later, there's a hundred applicants and it really doesn't pay to be applying to a job that's been listed for three weeks.

that probably already has been filled or they just forgot to take it down or it's a ghost job, which is a whole nother thing. And so yeah, really being on top of it and not just, you know, applying, but also using that time to start doing outreach. So you make you send in your application and you try and contact the hiring manager if you can tap into your network. Do you know anyone who's connected whether to the industry or if at the company itself? And so.

Yeah, it's not about the speed at which you fire off a huge number of applications, but the speed at which you're able to jump on it with an adaptable resume. And so I think a lot of people I talked to talked about having multiple resumes that you can easily tweak. And they still showcase your experience, but maybe you have one bullet point higher on the list on one resume versus another. And so, yeah.

Joel Cheesman (41:06.198)

And I would add to that, don't just look at job alerts, but look at the news people who's getting funded, who's getting series A, B, D, and E, because companies that get money hire people. And if you, if you get on it before the job postings, you're going to be that much better for it. So I'll throw that in there, Catherine as well.

Katherine Watt (41:11.238)

Yeah.

Chad (41:13.017)

Mm hmm. They have startups. Yes. Amen, brother.

Chad (41:26.445)

Exactly. Well, that's Katherine Watt, writer at CNET. She was on the economics beat. She was on the mortgage beat, but now she's on the Chad and Cheese beat. Katherine, if people want to find out more about you, they want to see what you're writing about, those types of things, where would you send them?

Joel Cheesman (41:40.046)

You

Katherine Watt (41:47.899)

I would send you to cnet.com, specifically CNET Money. You could also find me on LinkedIn. You can find me on my personal site, Katherine Watt Editorial. And yeah, this was such a great conversation. Hope to be back.

Joel Cheesman (42:01.902)

Thank you. And I bet there are lot of job opportunities in those CNET stories as well, Catherine. So tune in to CNET, everybody. Chad, that is another one in the can. We out.

Chad (42:02.001)

Thanks for coming.

Chad (42:07.234)

Chad (42:11.855)

Way out.