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DEI Death Zone w/ Dr. T

DEI is failing. That's the opinion of Dr. Tiffany Brandreth, and that's also why we had to bring her on the podcast. Among the topics Chad & Cheese discuss with "Dr. T" include 1) why leaders are simultaneously advocating and oppressing DEI efforts, 2) how oppressive decisions have no consequence and are concealed through visible DEI activities, and 3) what are the five unconscious biases are leading DEI yet driving it into the "death zone." What's the "death zone"?

Gotta listen. It's a no-holds, honest take on the state of DEI in Corporate America.

INTRO (0s):

Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.

Joel (21s):

Oh yeah. What's up everybody. It's your favorite knuckleheads? AKA the Chad and Cheese podcast as always. I'm your co-host Joel Cheeseman joined by the Eddie van Halen to my diamond David Lee Roth, Chad Sowash. And today we welcome the doctor, Dr. Tiffany Brandreth, DEI expert, and a leadership and organizational psychologist to C-suite and senior leadership teams.

Chad (49s):


Joel (50s):

Was a lot smarter than us, Chad, and it's good that we have these guests welcome, Dr. Tiffany, can I call you Dr. Tiffany? Or do you like Dr. Brandreth better?

Dr. Tiffany (59s):

No, no, actually I'm affectionately referred to as Dr. T or Dr. B by clients.

Chad (1m 5s):

Like Mr. T like Mr. T.

Dr. Tiffany (1m 7s):

Yes, exactly.

Chad (1m 9s):

But Dr. T I pity the fool who messes with Dr. T.

Joel (1m 16s):

Well, Dr. Thank you for joining us today. A lot of our listeners aren't aware of you or know you, can you give us a quick bio on what makes Dr. Tiffany tick?

Dr. Tiffany (1m 25s):

Ooh. Okay. So in short form, I'm gonna say I am off the chart introvert, but come across as an off the chart extrovert. And what makes me tick is I'm super passionate and convicted in general about life and who we're trying to be in this world and making a difference and doing that through the work that I do while also having fun.

Chad (1m 46s):

And you're also, you like the food though. You like the food and you like the water. Tell us a little bit about that.

Dr. Tiffany (1m 52s):

I think about food from the time I wake up to the time I go to sleep. And I'm thinking about when I'm gonna be eating every day, all day long.

Chad (1m 60s):

Are you a food snob? Are you a food snob though? Will you do the fast foods or will you just do any foods?

Dr. Tiffany (2m 5s):

I will. Well, okay. So I have a funny, real quick story. I went and ate what is that Michelin store restaurant in Napa Valley.

Joel (2m 15s):

Yeah. Crickets. You're gonna get crickets.

Dr. Tiffany (2m 18s):

Well, there's a, and it was a five hour exceptional dining experience where? Oh yeah. Right. Okay. Matching champagne, wine food, all that. Oh, with exceptional food. Five hours. Yes. I went home the next day. I ate tater tots and ramen noodles.

Chad (2m 37s):

That's good balance.

Dr. Tiffany (2m 39s):

That's good. And I barely cook.

Joel (2m 41s):

And you said the perfect woman didn't exist, Chad.

Chad (2m 45s):

And she does. She's here we call her Dr. T.

Joel (2m 48s):

And so we can hate her more. Where are you calling in from Dr. T. Okay.

Dr. Tiffany (2m 53s):

I am. I live in Orange County in California, but I'm originally from a very small town called Bottle Grand, Washington. And we just had our 30 year reunion. So I looked up the population back when I was graduating, I graduated '92. The population that the US census says was 3,700 people when I graduated. It is now 21,000. That's what? 2020. In 2021, what the census said. So that gives you an idea of growth.

Joel (3m 22s):

I like how she diverted us from California to Washington. She did a really nice, nice deflection on that one.

Chad (3m 29s):

But also she gets a big applause because she's an GenXer.

Dr. Tiffany (3m 33s):

That's right. Gen X. Very proud of that.

Joel (3m 36s):

Oh, well, whatever, never mind.

Dr. Tiffany (3m 38s):

Amen. Do you remember? I don't know if you remember this. So the way gender identity is being spoken about today and really emphasized is the way generational diversity was being spoken about and educated on back in the early two thousands. And I remember gen X had had no part of the conversation. Everyone was paying attention to baby boomers.

Chad (3m 56s):

We still don't.

Joel (3m 57s):

Yeah, we still don't.

Dr. Tiffany (3m 58s):

Right. So, and millennials, and I remember going, Hey, what about us? But because our numbers are so low, we still, they still don't care.

sfx (4m 6s):

What did you say?

Chad (4m 7s):

You've been in the DEI space for nearly 18 years, but probably more than that?

Dr. Tiffany (4m 15s):

Longer! Mid nineties.

Chad (4m 16s):

Being in the DEI space, even before that acronym even existed, what's been the biggest change?

Dr. Tiffany (4m 24s):

Hmm. Ooh, good question. I'm gonna say the biggest change is probably the receptivity today versus back in the mid nineties, late nineties. So terminology of course continues to change. In fact, the department was called Multicultural Affairs and it was in a renowned medical school and hospital. And we were the first team to design and deliver diversity training. So the biggest change is that it started off as training. And now it's a, you know, entire initiative being funded, I mean poorly in general, but being funded by corporations.

Chad (5m 2s):

Well, that being said, okay, we're seeing billions and billions of dollars on DEI training every single year, but yet we're not seeing the outcomes. Can we go ahead and just put a stake in it and say that DEI training just doesn't work.

Dr. Tiffany (5m 18s):

Okay. So yes, I'm gonna, and so prior to 2020, right, May, 2020, it was reported that we're spending $8 billion a year and oh my gosh, that's so much money, but in comparison to $166 billion that is being spent on leadership development. And we know that Gallup continues to report engagement level, disengagement is around 70% based on poor leadership and management. Yet we never ever say leadership development training is failing.

Joel (5m 49s):

One of the points you make that dei is failing and you talk about in a LinkedIn place, that we are simultaneously advocating and oppressing DEI efforts. Can you explain that?

Dr. Tiffany (6m 2s):

Yes. Okay. So we've only been doing research on, right what's working, what isn't working? We haven't been researching and focusing on the people that are committed to diversity and the decisions that are being made to advance it or to prevent it because those decisions are concealed. And we aren't transparent about that. Right? And so the field has been led through what I refer to as good intentions, right? Well intended people who want to be able to make a difference yet without the qualifications to actually be leading this work. And I'm gonna say there's different facets.

Dr. Tiffany (6m 42s):

So let's just say organizational change, right. Requires and organizational psychologist, who knows how to do conflict management, who knows leadership development and also diversity inclusion. DEI experts weren't trained in org psychology and leadership development, leadership development, people aren't trained in DEI and or psychology actually doesn't train in DEI either.

Chad (7m 6s):

So what we're seeing is a bunch of figureheads who literally have no fucking clue what they're doing. And let me liken into this as something real quick, I'm a veteran and I'm also on the, you know, obviously the talent acquisition recruiting side of the house. Just because you put a veteran in a spot doesn't mean they know how to hire veterans and what the actual issues are. Is that what you're saying with regard to the other aspects of DEI? Just because you put somebody in that space and they could be a person of color or a female doesn't mean they know what the fuck they're doing.

Dr. Tiffany (7m 40s):

Ooh. So you're just touching on something highly controversial, but spot on. So you just named one of what I'm referring to is five unconscious deceptions, but highly uncomfortable truths of what is leading DEI and driving it directly into what I've trademark and coin as the "DEI death zone" analogy to Mount Everett's death zone. So experience is one of those five. And the way I define this as ''being from a marginalized classification, qualifies to hold position and are exempt from making oppressive DEI decisions.

Joel (8m 17s):

I love how you sort of frame death zone with Mount Everest. Can you dive into that just a little bit and then we'll get into the other four biases that you talk about?

Dr. Tiffany (8m 28s):

Mm, okay. So Mount Everest is the highest peak right in the world. And hundreds of people go and see to climb that the death zone is near the highest elevation peak, where the elevation is so extreme and the altitude levels are so high that people are actually dying. So you can only spend a certain amount of time there in order to summit and get to the peak. So this is the place where most climbers die now, Sherpa, right, are the navigation experts, guiding individuals and climbers up the mountain to get to the peak. So they're also carrying all the supplies and you have a range of people who are highly experienced experts at this, but then the younger individuals that don't have the experience at.

Dr. Tiffany (9m 14s):

So people are paying a discounted rate to have a Sherpa that will take them up the mountain and take their direction versus take the direction from the Sherpa. And so what, there's two parts of the dust zone. The initiative itself is falling into the dust zone without it being known. So this is what I call advocacy. Advocacy is all the feel good efforts that are happening. I ship one bias training that's an hour long speakers coming in recruitment. Everyone wants to share their recruitment numbers, but the desk zone is where all the inequity and the non-inclusive behaviors are being permitted and allowed.

Dr. Tiffany (9m 57s):

So the death zone is happening, but unbeknownst to the larger body and then the death zone for diverse marginalized individuals. So, you know, this whole notion speak truth to power.

Joel (10m 7s):


Dr. Tiffany (10m 7s):

So I was doing that way, way, way before it was even coined to term. And the reason why coming out with all of this as well is I'm really bored by all the recommendations and all the articles that keep coming out, because there are the same redundant solutions that are only topical and surface level. And we're defining the problem in the wrong way. So when all the speakers like you go to these conferences and such, and so all the speakers talk about, be courageous, speak your truth, be authentic, and look I'm up here. So, because I made it so can you, and all the people that didn't make it aren't on stage.

Dr. Tiffany (10m 49s):

And so by telling people speak truth to power, you can do it when power won't even speak truth to power. So these 35 executive teams that I've worked with, there's a power dynamic within the executive teams where, when I'm doing my informational meetings and so forth, the number one thing that executives ask me is this going to be kept confidential? So if executives aren't willing to speak the truth among the executive team, why the hell are we advising people who are already disadvantaged at lower levels to speak truth to power when they're being penalized in really subtle ways, identified nine behaviors that are happening by DEI, by advocates, for DEI in senior leadership roles that are penalizing people for doing that.

Chad (11m 37s):

So, your research reveals that women, women are the highest demographic representing the people who are oppressing real change. Talk to me about that. That to me is surprising as hell because .the exact people who are being oppressed, maybe this shouldn't surprise us because Jeff Bezos, everybody says, I want to be that. And everybody knows you're not gonna be that. Right. But why are women oppressing this, any of this?

Dr. Tiffany (12m 6s):

Okay. So it goes back to what we just talked about regarding experience being one of the right unconscious, deceptions and truths. So the reason why this is so prominent is because when you're from a marginalized classification, such as being female, so you experience sexism, there isn't a reflection on am I, could I be a racist? Could I be homophobic? Right. So people from these classes say, because I experience racism, therefore I'm not, I'm not a racist, so I'm not a sexist because I've experienced sexism. I'm not right. So that's the reason why this is happening. And then I've. So I have so much that I wanna unpack here.

Chad (12m 46s):

Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. This sounds like the, I have black friends.

Dr. Tiffany (12m 53s):

Oh, God.

Chad (12m 53s):

Conversation from white dudes. Is it the same thing?

Dr. Tiffany (12m 57s):

Yes. Okay. So I, this is, what's really interesting regarding the group that came out as being one of the highest in advancing DEI were males. 73%.

Chad (13m 13s):


Dr. Tiffany (13m 14s):

Of those representing advancing were males. Whereas 27% of women were advancing DEI.

Joel (13m 19s):

I have my finger over the applause soundbite, but I'm afraid to get canceled if I do that. I just, I can't do it.

Dr. Tiffany (13m 25s):

I know, I know this is what I'm saying this is so controversial. This is really controversial. And okay. So I have to, I wanna share this. So compliance is my other, is one of the other unconscious deceptions.

Chad (13m 38s):

Oh, talk to me.

Dr. Tiffany (13m 39s):

Okay. So I'm gonna bring in HR here. So being stewards of the law equates to having expertise and being qualified to supervise and oversee DEI, that is false because HR leaders are also oppressing people and DEI. So what we've done is we, and I understand, so when you talk, ask, what, what, one of the biggest changes are we equate bias and discrimination as the same thing. So because HR is responsible to protect the organization again, and people against discrimination, we believe, okay. So of course, DEI belongs there actually, it's a complete conflict of interest because yes, HR is about the people, but who are they first for the company?

Dr. Tiffany (14m 30s):

And, and so, and we know that by, so there's a major conflict of interest. When an employee raises a claimant discrimination after leaving the organization, they don't hire the internal lawyer and defense lawyer. They have to get their own plaintiff, right. Employment attorney. And so the corporate attorney at no point ever represents the employee. And in fact, and we saw this, let's use the NFL as an example, right? We saw Brian Flores's text messages. And what did the NFL come out with a statement saying, we will defend against these claims and which are without merit. This is the stance, the HR, the legal department and the company takes every single time.

Dr. Tiffany (15m 14s):

So all the counseling that HR does when there's employee relation problems, what are they doing? They're documenting, why are they documenting? They're documenting because in case they ever need to be able to use that, to defend against any claims. So the legal advisement that's happening is at the detriment of actually helping in developing employees and managers.

Joel (15m 38s):

So what I'm hearing is, so HR largely is to keep the company outta trouble, IE, keep it outta court. But also if you look at DEI initiatives, that's a fairly disruptive strategy by most companies like accounts, right? So am I hearing you say that HR who traditionally is in charge of keeping the company like 'risk averse' is now in charge of totally shaking things up and injecting diversity, inclusion and equity into a company, which by its nature is sort of rocking the boat. So is HR, am I hearing that correctly? And secondly, is HR the wrong department to be instilling DEI initiatives in a company?

Dr. Tiffany (16m 22s):

Absolutely. Because, so it goes back to the conflict of interest regarding if their job is to reduce risk, minimize, and conceal risk, why are they going to make decisions that will uncover and create vulnerability to create change? So HR actually rejects transparency. So everywhere in all the literature, what do we hear? DEI we need transparency and accountability. So therefore, and this is where, when I talk about, even, I'm gonna say this, the he powerhouse manage global management consulting companies, because they're industry leaders, right.

Dr. Tiffany (17m 5s):

Should be leading in creating disruption yet. They're still also following the same formula, meaning transparency, everyone is loves. So this is the advocacy. Everyone loves to be transparent about the billions of dollars that they're putting back into the community and the recruitment numbers, which are always what mid-level and below never, never above, right? No one is being transparent around the decisions that are being made to not advance DEI by us practitioners. They're not being transparent regarding the discrimination claims, regarding turnover, litigation costs, settlement, and employee engagement numbers.

Chad (17m 45s):

They just wanna show the numbers that look, make them look good, as opposed to the ones that really are the true numbers of what the company actually is.

Dr. Tiffany (17m 57s):

Yes. And so Diversity, Inc, which is the right renowned, so they are perpetuating this and all the other companies that are rewarding.

Chad (18m 5s):

This bullshit is what you're is what I'm hearing.

Joel (18m 8s):


Dr. Tiffany (18m 9s):

Yeah. Okay. So this is my new analogy regarding the feel good and then the not so feel good. Is everyone is playing offense and communicating offense and no one wants to communicate defense because it gets you disliked and blackballed. So, right. We are applying positive psychology, which of course we need to, of let's focus on the good let's focus on , what we know. And I'm gonna, I'm really bad at it talking about analogies, but what I've heard is in football, right? Offense is what sells the tickets, but defense is what wins the game and yes.

Joel (18m 43s):


Dr. Tiffany (18m 44s):

Offense and defense require two different skillsets. So all the recommendations and all the solutions that we hear is what always on the offense, cuz no one wants to talk about the defense cuz it's the bad underbelly of DEI. And so even, oh gosh. Okay. So Deloitte just came out with a 2022, right, DEI report. So I was in shock when I saw that their entire, the majority of their focus, was on all the recruitment. Their equity section had a complete, it was a small paragraph and so this is equity in talent reviews and succession planning.

Dr. Tiffany (19m 28s):

And this is where the majority of the bias sits, that HR is not qualified because they're not bias experts. To do talent reviews and succession planning and leadership development you have to be an expert in behavior bias and diversity, right? And so even Deloitte couldn't speak to that. They said equity is an outcome and I understand they could be using inclusion and equity, you know, interchangeably. And, but they weren't touching on anything about succession planning, which tells me the fact that you were able to be detailed and comprehensive in all these areas but that, tells me you're missing that you're missing that expertise, but I'm used to that.

Dr. Tiffany (20m 10s):

What I was really I'm gonna say offended that Deloitte would say, I wanna find in this section at the very end, they said, okay, here it is. "Ultimately selecting the most qualified candidate is always the objective." I literally went, holy shit. Did Deloitte just print this on paper?

Chad (20m 37s):

Yeah. Meritocracy baby. Meritocracy.

Dr. Tiffany (20m 39s):

They're promoting implicit bias. So any time, right? The sequence of essence is they only talk about most qualified candidate when they're talking about diversity. And so how are they perpetuating promoting implicit bias that has been, I call it psychological conditioning us since affirmative action that then diverse candidates from the starting line are inferior? That's what that sentence implies.

Chad (21m 3s):

That's the loophole right there, baby. That's a loophole. So, let me hit bias with some unconscious bias. So we just dropped an amazing interview with Steve Pemberton, the C H R O over at Work Human today. And he asserts that unconscious bias doesn't exist anymore. So does that mean first and foremost? Do you agree with that? Secondly, does that mean that people are hiding behind the term unconscious bias while they're still just plain bias, racist and misogynist?

Dr. Tiffany (21m 30s):

Okay. So I listened to the Steve interview. Excellent. And I disagree.

Chad (21m 36s):

Okay, okay.

Dr. Tiffany (21m 37s):

OK. I disagree. And, but I think it's because of the, so this goes to the micro aspects of diversity that's getting ignored. So we focus on the macro. We don't focus on the micro. What I mean by that is unconscious bias means I have an attitude that is in complete contradiction of what I fully rationally am espousing committed to and believe myself to be as part of my identity. So people see themselves a certain way and without realizing there's blind spots, behaviors, right?

Dr. Tiffany (22m 17s):

Attitudes, mindsets that are in contradiction to their value system. So yes, unconscious bias still exists. But to his point, conscious bias is also existing. We actually need to stop talking about bias without addressing oppression. So I think what he's saying is, we're all comfortable with bias because bias is actually, it's a thought that is still contained internally, that hasn't been released out in the world. So when bias is exhaled, right into a word of behavior, a decision, that's a micro-aggression. However, when it's done by leadership, what is that? Oppression. But as soon as we hear oppression, we're like, oh shit, that's a four letter word, and now you have to be penalized because you said oppression when we actually have to see oppression as not good or bad.

Dr. Tiffany (23m 5s):

I mean, even though it's bad, right. But we have to get people, to stop judging people, stop labeling people and actually say, okay, this is the outcome and the result of a bias, which is oppression. Let's unpack that and dismantle this, but we're not training. So when you mention training is ineffective. Yes it is. Because this whole notion of changing hearts and minds, I don't know if you saw all my website, I'm like, oh my God, can we stop saying changing hearts and minds because that is not changing behaviors and decisions for people and people management roles, knowing how that pertains to hiring, developing, evaluating performance, talking about behaviors and leadership characteristics that are leading to succession planning.

Chad (23m 52s):

Okay. Okay. So how do we change this? You have been advising companies for over two decades, right? So how do we change this? How are you telling companies that we need to change this? How do we become different?

Dr. Tiffany (24m 8s):

Oh man. Well that that's like five more episodes. So I'm gonna go. So I'm gonna go to the two, the areas that cost no money, because the excuse always is we don't have budget, which by the way, I started removing that barrier so that they could not use that excuse of we don't have the budget. And I said, you know, what, if you really wanna reach the summit right of DEI, which no one has, everyone is still at base camp. So until oppression is dismantled, everyone will be at base camp and they won't even be ascending the climb up to the peak. So I'm gonna only give advisement that will not take any budget. The very first one is as human beings, what we are motivated by pain and pleasure.

Dr. Tiffany (24m 53s):

So, and we have to identify an incentive and a consequence to becoming inclusive. So right now people are getting promoted based on right, a set of skills, making diversity, I'm gonna say DEI, being skilled in DEI is optional. So you get to be in your position and whether or not you are, is optional and your intention is good enough for us. So we have to have some type of incentive or consequence first that's identified. And for every leadership team and company, that'll be different. Second, we've talked about this. We have to remove the authority of DEI out of HR so that HR doesn't supervise and oppress decisions of DEI.

Dr. Tiffany (25m 38s):

And it has to only be under the CEO, but it also, I'm gonna plug the most damaging and detrimental unconscious bias leading DEI. And that is power, right? So it's a misuse of power. The way I define this is being in a position of power, authorizes and qualifies to make credible DEI decisions. We have to remove the decision making power away from the person who's not qualified. And so it can be under the CEO, but the person who's deciding where the budget allocation should go. It shouldn't be, if you're gonna do billions externally, cut that in half and invest that internally to the development of the culture and the people.

Dr. Tiffany (26m 26s):

And then I have five advocacy behaviors that the 20% of the executives that were actually advancing DEI and not oppressing it, they had five distinctive behaviors that nobody else was doing. And then we have to, so the other one, this is really, really tough, but I was gonna say, it's one of the biggest dilemmas I call 'em diversity dilemmas. So one of the biggest diversity dilemmas that is happening across the board, what happens when you have a executive or leader that is producing exceptional results for the company, but exhibiting poor leadership behaviors that are biased.

Dr. Tiffany (27m 7s):

So you have, so HR in general are, is not able to distinguish between, let's say a really bad micromanager, but also having bias against marginalized groups. They're putting it under the umbrella of, well, they're just a bad manager that needs to be better developed, not realizing well, yes, they have poor leadership skills and they're also biased and creating oppression. So I wanna share an analogy. Let's see if I can deliver this right. Cause this is sort of my aha regarding we actually have to stop making, being an inclusive leader optional, in terms of rising into position, which is different also than diverse.

Dr. Tiffany (27m 51s):

So we are focusing on hiring diversity, which is absolutely critical. Of course, being diverse does not mean that you're inclusive. Right. And, so think of it this way. We say diversity training is failing all of that. When have you ever heard? So let's take the driver's license test, right? When you fail your driver's license test written and driving, do we say that the driver's license test failed? Or do we say that the driver failed?

Joel (28m 25s):

The driver?

Dr. Tiffany (28m 26s):

Okay. So then for all the people, right, who fail their driver's license, then would we allow them to drive on the road without continuing having their permit?

Joel (28m 38s):


Chad (28m 39s):

Well, no, it's illegal.

Dr. Tiffany (28m 40s):

Right. Well, no, it's not. So I'm looking at it from the safety. We don't let them drive without a license or without an authorized adult because it's irresponsible for the safety of the individuals. Now, the other part that that is always talked about in diversity, is mandatory. So because it's a mandatory training, it's creating more resentment. So therefore we have to remove the mandatory nature of it. And I agree. We would never say though, to get your driver's license test, we are gonna remove the mandatory nature because it's pissing off drivers that they're not passing. So we're gonna let you go ahead and drive. And then we are going to trust your intention and commitment to become a responsible driver and eventually pass your test.

Dr. Tiffany (29m 20s):

Hell no.

Chad (29m 21s):

Yeah. You might wanna start doing an analogy with gun laws around that. I'm sorry. Go Ahead. Go ahead. Okay.

Dr. Tiffany (29m 28s):

Oh yeah. Let's let's not even go down that road. Okay. So, but that's what we're doing with diversity. We're saying we are not gonna make this mandatory and you can still become a leader. You can fail class, but you didn't fail bias class. It's the class that failed and the curriculum that failed, which yes, I agree we need to improve the curriculum. Absolutely. Because there's a formula that's being used that's ineffective, but it's because we're only targeting one segment of a learner when I've identified four different segments. So the people who are more advanced in development and diversity in general, that nobody's getting developed because everyone's still focusing on the, let's say entry level, knowledge of DEI.

Joel (30m 10s):

All right. Alright. Alright. You're you're, you're bringing up, you're bringing up driving tests. You're bringing up the eighties for me and we're talking gen X. So, so I'm gonna pivot to this real quick, Dr. T as a card carrying gen Xer, I assume you've seen the movie Boomerang starring Eddie Murphy.

Dr. Tiffany (30m 27s):

I'm pausing, laughing. I, this is because I was just talking about Boomerang and how my feet would pass, Eddie Murphy's test.

Joel (30m 35s):

All you haven't. If you haven't seen, you gotta watch it. But one of the things at the time was Eddie works in an all black advertising agency, which at the time was a little bit controversial, but it reminds me of our conversation and an interview that Chad and I did a year or two ago with Cindy Gallup and Cindy Gallup said sort of defeatedlyr. Nothing's gonna change until businesses are started and become successful with diverse people. So women owned businesses, black-owned businesses, et cetera. Where do you stand on that? Should there be more of that? Does the government need to get more involved with diversity businesses?

Joel (31m 20s):

What's your take?

Dr. Tiffany (31m 21s):

We're focusing on the benefit and value of diversity, of highly diverse organizations, which I agree with. We're completely negating the middle part and I'm actually highly concerned with all the diversity that's coming in because there's no investment of the development of the people. So what I mean by this is, we know that there's four stages of high performing teams, right? Forming norm storming before they get to the high performing stage. We also know the five dysfunctions of a team, right? And yet we are not applying those principles to the diversity, that is happening. So, and I've been in companies where highly diverse and there was, it was beautiful and it was ugly at the same time because there was so much dysfunction that wasn't being managed because when you increase differences, what is that going to do?

Dr. Tiffany (32m 16s):

It's gonna increase conflict unless people are skilled at managing diversity. So before we get to the innovation and the creativity and the business result for the diversity, we actually have to be able to manage through the conflict and the storming period and the dysfunctions that are there without diversity and only amplified with diversity.

Chad (32m 40s):

And that is the DEI death zone kids with Dr. T AKA, Dr. Tiffany Brandreth. Doc T can you please let our listeners know where they can find out more about you? And then also learn a little bit more about this death zone.

Joel (32m 57s):

Death zone.

Dr. Tiffany (32m 58s):

Yeah. So my website, Dr. Tiffany Brandreth, but then LinkedIn, I've literally, I have no social media marketing and such, but I've just started on LinkedIn to shell out this data and these findings and these discoveries and solutions one step at a time, because there's so much, so LinkedIn is where I am starting to publish.

Joel (33m 22s):

Love it.

Chad (33m 22s):


Joel (33m 22s):

Chad, another one in the can, baby.

Chad and Cheese (33m 24s):

We out, we out.

OUTRO (33m 19s):

Thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast with Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of Shout Outs of people, you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any hoo be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode.

OUTRO (34m 4s):

And while you're at it, visit just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. Is so weird. We out.


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