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Future Jerks by Indeed

Ya' know how mobile developers have to build for two distinctly different platforms iOS and Android? Well, you'd better get ready for strategizing and building for Indeed ... and then everyone else. That's the vision Indeed laid out for attendees at their recent annual meeting, and's Julie Calli is here to lay out all the details from the event. If you use Indeed, it's a must-listen and a nice alternative voice to what Indeed is doing from what Chad & Cheese are droppin' on the topics of CPA, RPO, Flex, Hire, and more from Indeed. And if that's not enough, the gang dives into a new advertising option from LinkedIn that should not only get the attention of B2B marketers everywhere but also the attention of savvy employers. We even throw a little Elon and Kanye in there for some additional employer brand commentary.


INTRO (1s):

Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.

Joel (25s):

Oh yeah, Media post reports TikTok is Gen Z's favorite brand proving once again big booty Latinas and bug fights are universally loved by old and young alike. Hi kids you are listening to the Chad and Cheese podcast Does Recruitment Marketing. I'm your cohost, Joel "future jerks" Cheeseman.

Chad (45s):

This is Chad "still not drinking the Kool-Aid" Sowash.

Julie (49s):

This is Julie "love to watch men Let it Grow for Movember" Calli.

Joel (53s):

And on this episode.

Chad (54s):

Wait a minute.

Joel (56s):

Diving into Indeed Future Works conference, bias laws and LinkedIn's document ads. Let's do this.

Chad (1m 6s):

That was good. Letting it grow for Movember. You might want to explain that one, Julie.

Julie (1m 12s):

Movember? You don't know about Movember?

Joel (1m 14s):

You know Movember

Chad (1m 15s):

You said making it grow for Movember. It might have sounded, sounded like November. It sounded very, very much a porn reference, is what I'm saying.

Julie (1m 23s):

Well, if you're not aware of what Movember is. It's supporting men's health and cancer research. Prostate cancer right? Yes. Well, all men's health and cancer research and you know, a lot of people show their support by growing beards and mustaches in November. And I have a lot of people in my life that do that. And I absolutely love this time of year to watch everybody awkwardly grow it in when they're not used to doing it. But yeah, I love men with beards. I love to see everybody's facial hair

Joel (1m 58s):

That escalated quickly. It has to be a mustache account. You can't do the beard. You gotta have like the stash, the cheesy seventies porn star stash. If you're really gonna make a statement for Movember.

Julie (2m 8s):

You, got a problem with the whaler? That's the look without the mustache.

Joel (2m 14s):

Whaler's good. The evil villain twirl at the end. The Raleigh fingers. Remember that one, Chad?

Chad (2m 20s):

The Raleigh fingers

Joel (2m 21s):

Seventies picture reference.

Chad (2m 22s):

That's read some wax for that. Yeah.

Julie (2m 23s):

Are you guys gonna be styling with some wax? A little, little twirlies on the end?

Joel (2m 28s):

I tried. I've tried that one and my wife hated it. I've tried the little curl at the end and my wife was like, Nope, no, nope, nope. So wife's gotta look at it. Happy wife, happy life, so no more twirlies on my mustache. Sorry kids.

Chad (2m 42s):

Twirly free.

Joel (2m 43s):

And speaking of twirly free, let's get to shout outs, shall we?

Chad (2m 47s):


Joel (2m 47s):

I'm happy to go first. My shout out goes to Adidas, the company ended its partnership with Ye. Last week, also known as Kanye West. I guess that's how the kid, the kids pronounce it. Exterminated with immediate effect. Adidas stock is down 60 something percent so far in 2022. By the way, the YE partnership hasn't gone very well. It seems from our recruitment marketing perspective, it brings into question the wisdom of bringing celebrities who might invariably muck up the brand, if you will. One, hello layoffs for all the employees who were supporting all the easy ye products.

Chad (3m 28s):


Joel (3m 28s):

As well as retention in this case how do you feel being a Jewish employee at Adidas, partnering with someone like Kanye West? There are employment brand ramifications to getting in bed with celebrities. Chad, you'll also remember Intel and Will-I-am not exactly being the best fit in terms of spokesman and partnerships with companies. Think first before you get in bed with that celebrity, employers, it could damage the brand. Shout out to Adidas.

Julie (3m 56s):

All right, Shout out to New York City for

Joel (4m 1s):

The city so nice they named it twice.

Julie (4m 9s):

salary transparency legislation starting from November.

Chad (4m 11s):

And that is sexy kids. That's right.

Julie (4m 14s):

New York City and Westchester County. So two of them with their very close relation to each other, meaning there's going to be a lot of people hitting websites, checking out how much compensation is being paid in their own organization as well as others.

Chad (4m 30s):

Yes, exactly.

Joel (4m 31s):

I can't wait to see how companies get around this new law. That'll be the funnest part.

Chad (4m 36s):


Joel (4m 36s):

Our salary range is zero to a million dollars. They're complying with the law.

Chad (4m 40s):

They have to have legit pay bands. Right, Julie?

Julie (4m 44s):

Well, yeah, so there has to be a reasonable pay band. That doesn't mean that they can't go over it. They can. There certainly has to be justification for that. But you just said Joel, something that I am hearing quite a trend from. Oh, I will share that. In talking with a lot of people about, you know, companies trying to understand what pay transparency is and like, how am I gonna address this? A lot of them are not prepared and they feel there's a really high risk that's going to be associated with them trying to comply within the timeline and they're not ready. So there's been a lot of, I'd say activity happening that companies are doing to respond.

Julie (5m 29s):

And one of them is like, you have to disclose compensation on the job posting. So what if you don't post the job? Right? So that's something that's happening.

Chad (5m 38s):

Well, you have to post the job if you're a federal contractor. So, I mean, that's one of the things. So there's a large bulk of companies that will have to, they're mandated to. But if you're not, there's kind of like under the radar you could fly. Right?

Julie (5m 52s):

Right. So it, you know, the choice is you have to disclose it to post it. So companies are weighing that and saying, Well what is the risk to me to disclose this right now? It's not worth the risk. Pull the job. So there is, I think it's gonna muck up a lot of the data of companies saying, Oh, companies are, you know, cutting jobs and there's less jobs out there. Well, there's a couple of reasons why that's happening. Yes, there might be some softening in the market, but I think it's gonna get mucked up with a lot of response to transparency cuz people are taking down jobs that they don't want to disclose compound right now. They're not posting them. Yeah, they're taking them down.

Julie (6m 33s):

They're also taking down pipeline jobs. Right. There's a lot of jobs out there that people post just to pipeline talent and those are coming down because they just create risk that they don't want to address right now. And then a lot of the executive level positions, a lot of really higher paid and compensated positions. They're just saying, we don't wanna disclose that right now. Send that off to an outsourced company, send that out to a staffing company. So all these things are happening. That means there's gonna be less jobs posted in these locations and people are gonna say, Oh it's cuz the economy's softening. No, it's cuz companies don't know how to respond to transparency. They're taking their jobs down.

Joel (7m 12s):

Who's gonna organize the people to come out and say that we need to get this law off the books because jobs aren't being posted. Somebody's gotta organize that. Right?

Julie (7m 22s):

Oh yeah, I bet there are already people who are feeling growth from this right now. They're feeling activity come to their business looking for ways to get around this and they're gonna find ways.

Joel (7m 34s):

The real winners are New York City employment lawyers.

Julie (7m 38s):

Yes. Oh, I'm sure there's a lot of council going on right now in this area.

Chad (7m 43s):

It's so ridiculous. Companies saying that they are never ready for things. I remember before this whole pandemic thing, companies were never ready for remote work. And guess what? Within two weeks everybody was working remotely. So I call bullshit once again to all these companies who say that they are not ready. They're looking for excuses not to do what they should have been doing for for decades. It is total bullshit. The risk that they have right now in not paying people fairly, currently in their organization is much greater than them actually putting salaries on the jobs.

Julie (8m 19s):

Oh, you're so right. And that's exactly what's happening though. These companies that are like, Wait a minute, we can't post this job cause half of our employees aren't even paid in this range.

Chad (8m 29s):


Julie (8m 29s):

Yeah. And as they're realizing that, they're like, wait, pump the brakes. Don't post the job with the comp, but we are gonna have to figure out what to do with all these people. So, the behavior that we want is happening. They're turning around and saying, Uhoh before we can do this, make it public. We better go back and fix the problem inside the box of us not paying everybody in the same role. Fairly. So good news that making the right effect, bad news that postings are gonna go down a little bit, which could affect the industry quite a bit as things try to normalize.

Chad (9m 6s):

And just a big shout out to our friends over Syndio, which is the platform that you plug all this shit into and then it just shows you where your fucking things up. It's simple guys. We have tech that does this. So all you companies that say, Oh, it's too hard to be able, it's total bullshit. You can, you can go out and get it done in the snap of a finger. Well, maybe not that fast, but pretty fast.

Joel (9m 26s):

Pretty. But Julie's got a great point where some people aren't even in that range. And how do you have a conversation with them when jobs are posted well above that range, you

Chad (9m 36s):

Pay them the gap. Yes. And then you do back pay. That's what you do. You, you unfuck the situation is what you do.

Joel (9m 43s):

You're making people think, Chad, you're making people make hard decisions. This isn't how it's done.

Chad (9m 48s):

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. GDP over happiness. I get it. I get it. Okay. Big shout out to our friends over at Twitter kids. That's right. Shout out really at to Twitter's new employer brand. And you might be asking new employer brand? What are you talking about? Julie, you gotta agree with me. After last week, Elon Musk officially taking over his owner of Twitter, that leadership change has to change the brand. Wouldn't you agree? And especially just the impact on hiring individuals, especially after coming out saying that he was going to fire 75% of the staff.

Joel (10m 26s):

Which he's apparently doing.

Julie (10m 28s):

So a statement like that, everyone's afraid for their job and questioning why they're even there. You know, and I was just listening this morning about how the entire product leadership team might roll over. So that's your product leadership, right? That what's that gonna do to all the other product developers that fall underneath that and the experience that they have. So it's gonna have quite a rippling effect. There's gonna be people I think that they're gonna choose to, you know, toss out of the company. There's people that are gonna volunteer to leave, but isn't our having an employer brand being authentic to a cause or a purpose. I think they're actually gonna draw people in who support what he's trying to do and the changes he's trying to make.

Julie (11m 13s):

So I think it's a culture change and you're gonna detract people and you're gonna attract them.

Joel (11m 18s):


Chad (11m 18s):

So you're gonna see a big slew of people that are going to be leaving or fired or what have you. I think they're gonna a lot of people that just hang on to see what kind of cash they're gonna get.

Joel (11m 28s):

Oh, I'd stay around for the show, Julie. There's some, there's some, there's some thought that if Twitter lays off that many people, you know, Pinterest is next, Snap is next. Like you're gonna see mass layoffs at at companies that hire a lot of tech people and that impacts our industry, right? Like our unicorns, the Eightfolds, the Deels, the Remotes. Like what's your take on, is that gonna spill over into our space and others?

Julie (11m 56s):

Well I think what's happening at Twitter is a little more unique than what a lot of the other companies might experience, right? Every company needs to find a way to be profitable. And I think, you know, Elon's gonna make some very big moves to make sure that $44 billion dollar investment has some value to it. So he's gonna be pretty dramatic in the changes that he looks to make, where others might be creating investment towards what they see for the future. And, I just see that as a he needs to monetize the business he has and others might wanna build to compete for the future.

Joel (12m 34s):

I guess the caveat to that is if he's successful after laying off 75%, everyone's gonna go, Okay, he did it and was successful, now let's copy that. As opposed to now it might be a wait and see approach to what that does to the product.

Julie (12m 48s):

You know, I hope that that's not the way that things work, that people look to one and what one person did and one business and they copy that. I actually think he has incredible influence like that.

Joel (12m 60s):

He does.

Julie (13m 0s):

You know, most business leaders might have common sense to not follow just what somebody else did, but he really does have influence and a lot of people look to him as a incredible entrepreneur.

Chad (13m 12s):


Julie (13m 13s):

An investor. So yeah, he could create ripple effect if he shows really positive results in the action he takes. I mean, one thing I will credit for him is he is authentically him. He says what he thinks he, you know, takes action on what he believes. And that's not something that you always see from someone leading in a position like his, where they play it safe, they stick to their talking points.

Chad (13m 35s):

Yeah. But when you have that kind of money, you can do that. You can afford to do that kind of shit. And he has, I mean, I'm really surprised that the SEC and the government has to, hasn't come after him for, you know, hitting stock and whatnot. I mean, it's just, it's ridiculous.

Joel (13m 50s):

What's the old adage? Money doesn't change you, it just brings out who you really are. This is who he is.

Chad (13m 58s):

And he brings syncs to work.

Joel (13m 60s):

From a recruiting perspective. Like should do people still care about Twitter? I mean, there was a time where there was a lot of recruiting going on on Twitter. Like is it your sense that it's still a hot place to find people? I mean, everyone's doing webinars on TikTok and have we just moved on from Twitter from a workforce perspective?

Julie (14m 19s):

Yeah, I've never really seen Twitter as like a significant source for recruitment. It is where people do some personal branding. It is certainly where they make sure that they're seen and they're connected to, you know, whatever the hot topics are and the trends, but I have not, I have never seen Twitter be a, even in my top 10 ever on any customer's list of best sources. I wouldn't call it a recruitment major, recruitment marketing player. Yeah. There's just too many other channels out there and people aren't interested in like reading short messages even anymore. They want short videos like TikTok is.

Julie (15m 0s):

TikTok's driving more results right now than Twitter ever did.

Joel (15m 3s):

It's more about the twerk than it is the work people.

Julie (15m 7s):

Well said.

Chad (15m 7s):

Just as long as you're not twerking Cheeseman.

Joel (15m 16s):

Oh, don't worry about that man. Don't worry about that.

Chad (15m 18s):


Joel (15m 18s):

All right, let's get into this for the third time on our show this time. Totally, we got an insider on this one. All right. So Indeed had its annual event. For those who don't know, earlier this month, they've changed the name from Interactive Indeed to Future Jerks. I mean Future Works. Sorry.

Chad (15m 38s):

More porn references.

Joel (15m 39s):

Yeah, the new name apparently represents a new and fresh approach to its annual marque event, which I'm guessing needed a fresh new approach. So they brought in Ryan Reynolds. He keynote the event. Chad still has a boner about the news on that one. Ryan's talk was entitled Levity in Leadership and focused on how to pivot careers, build brands, and blaze a trail in business with authentic connections. But the new Deadpool movie aside, the biggest news was that Indeed is going full on pay per applicant in their pricing. In short, starting next year, employers using Indeed will pay only when a candidate starts or submits an application rather than when they click on a job ad.

Joel (16m 19s):

Julie, you were actually in attendance. What was broadcast on the stage and what was whispered over happy hour? I'm guessing they're two different things. What was your takeaway from your time at FutureWorks?

Julie (16m 34s):

Well, Ryan Reynolds certainly was quite, you know, and I would say his presence in that, in the way he spoke on the stage. I loved him before, but I loved him more after.

Chad (16m 44s):


Julie (16m 45s):

Because he was fantastic. I loved that Indeed had the CMO asking him questions, but he didn't care what her questions were. He had his own things, clearly wasn't there to say. And he had a lot to say and I thought, great perspective. So, great to have Ryan Reynolds there. I'd been to all of the Indeed interactives, I think I maybe one that I had missed ever that they had had. And this was very different. Usually it would be a few days, Austin, you know, couple thousand people would be there. There'd be a lot of breakouts where you'd go and you'd hear people from the industry, people who are practitioners, given talks, giving little round tables. There was all kinds of experience to interact with other people.

Julie (17m 28s):

What was very different about this conference was it was all Indeed, every breakout was Indeed every room was about Indeed in a product and a success story. So there wasn't really a stage for others. It was all Indeed. And I think that's because they had so much to communicate, they needed that whole day to like bring all that messaging out. They

Chad (17m 51s):

Had extra Kool-Aid.

Joel (17m 52s):

Now were there breakouts in different rooms or was it all one stage?

Julie (17m 56s):

Yeah, there was one one main stage.

Joel (17m 59s):


Julie (17m 60s):

You know, where the main presentation, keynotes and things happened and then there were some breakouts where you could like choose your own adventure to the things that you were more interested in learning about. But they were all about Indeed products and Indeed success stories. They were not presented by others, which was very different. That's not how the conferences had been in the past. So yes, you know, Indeed going CPA was probably the biggest announcement there, but they've been doing objective based campaigns right, for almost all of this year. But their statement was very bold that next year they'll be moving to a CPA model. But that was news to many even Indeed employees, right?

Chad (18m 40s):


Julie (18m 40s):

Like leadership got up on the stage and said, here's what we're doing. And all of the employees said, I would like to learn more about that.

Chad (18m 50s):

We don't know how many Indeed employees messaged us after our two podcasts over the last few days. And it was like, I learned more from your podcast than I did from our fucking company.

Julie (19m 1s):

Yeah, yeah. The communication did not make its way down enough, which is probably, and I hear empathy for the Indeed employee, right? That there's a lot of empathy for that because everybody wants to call their rep the next day day, Oh my God. And say, how does this work? What is my cost per applicant gonna be? How is this gonna change? I have to budget for next year, Right?

Chad (19m 20s):


Julie (19m 20s):

Recruitment marketers and TA people are trying to budget for next year, but there's changes coming and we don't even understand how to respond to that because there's not enough information, there still isn't enough information. By the way.

Chad (19m 32s):

The CEOs of the big programmatic companies that are out there didn't know what was happening either.

Julie (19m 38s):

Yeah. It most of the companies have been wired into Indeed that do, you know, programmatic, we're aware of objective based campaigns, but the fact that they're gonna go to complete CPA.

Chad (19m 52s):


Julie (19m 53s):

Honestly, there's not enough information to be clear about what that's going to look like because, this is, right now they're saying this is only when they have significant data. So what about when you don't have significant data?

Chad (20m 7s):


Julie (20m 7s):

Well, there's not an answer for that yet. So what is significant and what is that data set, right? Because not everyone's application process is the same. Some keep it really simple, click a button.

Chad (20m 21s):

And the Indeed Pixel doesn't fire on every single system that's out there.

Julie (20m 24s):

Right? So what data set is this working off of is a very big question. I would love to know like where, what data are you using to calculate this and what changes, right?

Chad (20m 39s):


Julie (20m 39s):

It makes me very nervous that someone's gonna dictate for the market what the cost per applicant should be.

Chad (20m 44s):

Whoa, whoa, whoa. What are you saying? Indeed might do that. Come on Julie, that would never happen.

Julie (20m 50s):

Well, who decides the cost per applicant? Who decides?

Chad (20m 52s):

Indeed does. Of course they do. Of course they do. Well and here's the thing, there's again an evil genius behind being this gray is because you don't have to have a solid answer. You don't have to have rules to live by and work by you just make 'em up as you go. Call by call. And that is again, part of the evil genius of Indeed.

Julie (21m 15s):

You know, in theory some of the things that they're looking to put into play really will improve the job seeker experience, closing the gap on how long it takes to hear back from someone about a job, hearing back at all. I mean, I think these are some really positive things that they might be able to address with this because if you're paying per application, you paid for it, you got 48 hours apparently, or 72 hours to get a credit back if that candidate wasn't a good candidate. But you have to give feedback. These are things that we're not used to doing it in TA's space, getting back to people within three days and making a decision and then giving feedback. If this really happens, that could be awesome.

Joel (21m 55s):

Some people don't know what that is and I don't even know what that is, is that if, if you apply through the Indeed system, there's an automated three day response. If you don't put a specific resp, like is it just they do it if you don't do it, kind like putting salary ranges on a job?

Julie (22m 11s):

There are deal breaker questions that you put on your job. Right now, how is this gonna connect to an ATS? Nobody has any idea. Right, exactly. So you're gonna have to use the Indeed platform and then you create these deal breaker questions and if somebody answers one of the deal breaker questions or you know, then they're not qualified for the position. And if you come back with candidates 72 hours and you say, Hey, these candidates are not qualified, Indeed's gonna say, well why?

Joel (22m 38s):


Julie (22m 38s):

And that means you either need to change your job description because you're not being clear enough in your description or you need to make different knockout questions. All of this can speed up the time to respond and hire, but it puts all of the, you know, the controls in with Indeed to, to really dictate that.

Chad (22m 59s):

And their platform they want. They're trying to move people away from their ATS into the Indeed hiring platform.

Julie (23m 5s):

Yes. And if this product does work the way they say it does with Instant Match and the ability for people to get response within three days, the job seekers are gonna be happy and people are gonna be enjoying that experience. It's only going to lead to adding more people becoming loyal to using Indeed as a candidate because they get a great experience there that's consistent that they can predict and then that's gonna create a dependency for everyone to continue to use that.

Joel (23m 32s):

And then I'm guessing they'll be some sort of consulting business where if you don't know how to improve your job, we'll come in for a fee and help you improve the job. Is that coming or has that been announced?

Julie (23m 47s):

Well I would say.

Joel (23m 49s):

Because you get into RPO territory, staffing territory?

Julie (23m 52s):

Most people I think walked away thinking the biggest announcement in there was, you know, the Indeed CBC going away moving to a CPA model.

Joel (24m 1s):


Julie (24m 1s):

But there were two other things that I saw really kind of come out at this. I would say.

Chad (24m 10s):

Talk to me.

Julie (24m 11s):

Well Indeed Flex finally, I'd say came out of the closet. Indeed Flex has been a thing that Indeed has been doing for some time now. It is an independent business to Indeed, but it is still owned by Recruit has Indeed the name, but it's a little bit separated from it.

Joel (24m 25s):

So for those that don't know Indeed Flex, give us a quick elevator description of that.

Julie (24m 34s):

So Indeed Flex is a way for you to be able to post hourly worker temporary positions and then be able to fulfill them on the platform. Where you're able to say, here's the shifts that I'm looking for, here's the type of work that I'm looking for. And then these are more hourly wage type roles and then they're able to fulfill against those based on matching people. But, what's very different about this is not, I'm looking for applicants, this is, I'm looking for people to start on Friday. So Indeed is really operating as a temp staffing agency in this way.

Chad (25m 10s):

Yeah. Yes.

Julie (25m 11s):

And if you go look at the privacy policy on Indeed Flex, it says staffing agency. So that tells you right there, this is not Indeed, which is about advertising.

Chad (25m 22s):

They're the employer of record. Correct? They are the employer of record.

Julie (25m 26s):

The 1099 worker. So you think about all of the people out there and the gig economy, right? They can now go to Indeed Flex and work in the gig economy through finding opportunities through Indeed. So that's one that I thought was like, hey, this has been brewing on the back burner quietly. I believe it's in, I forget how many, two dozen at least states and growing. But yes, that is a competition to temporary staffing agencies. Then Indeed Hire has been around for some time now, but really took more of a main stage with this.

Julie (26m 7s):

And now if Indeed is able to manage the entire experience with all of their tools, they're also going to be able to use them to create placements and build predictions against that and then charge people to say, Hey, we'll handle the whole thing for you. Just pay us a percentage of the person we place. So that, you know, goes direct competition with staffing.

Chad (26m 29s):

We haven't seen this before. i.e. CareerBuilder, Monster. I mean they all did this, all of them did this.

Joel (26m 40s):

Hubris. Yeah.

Chad (26m 40s):

Only I can fix it. Indeed.

Joel (26m 43s):

Julie did. Did you come away from the show being optimistic about Indeed? Were you sort of skeptical, cynical, Did it wreak of desperation or did it reek of like a company that knows exactly where it wants to go and it's moving forward on everything?

Julie (26m 58s):

I think it's really smart what Indeed's doing, for Indeed.

Joel (27m 2s):

Evil genius smart as Chad says? Yeah, okay.

Julie (27m 6s):

No, I really think a lot of the changes that they're making are to address real problems and some of them are completely valid. Like the candidates have a terrible experience hunting for jobs. The complaints they have about black hole ~ waiting too long to hear back from somebody never hearing back. There's so much time wasted from people applying to jobs and then companies are saying we don't have enough candidates. Right. So, they're making a lot of changes that I really think can solve some of these problems. The thing that's, you know, a little uncomfortable about it is that it's all going to be dependent on their tools.

Joel (27m 45s):


Chad (27m 46s):

It's all forced is what it is. The uncomfortable feeling is that this is being forced. That's what it is. You don't have a choice on this.

Joel (27m 52s):


Chad (27m 53s):

It's being forced whether you like it or not. And what they're saying is, and we actually talked about this on one of our earlier shows this week, is, you know, as you think about it, we've been heralding Indeed for, you know, mandating salary or putting on itself, well to be quite frank, they're just pumping their own gas pedal because salary they know will get more applies. How are they gonna get paid on more applies? So they're taking advantage of a situation that yes, town acquisition has fucked up over the last 20 years, they are taking advantage of a situation, but there's going to be no choice in this whole scenario. You're going to be forced.

Joel (28m 32s):

They want to be monopolist.

Julie (28m 35s):

This is why they, you know, people get great results from Indeed. Why? Because they do things to make the candidates feel great in their search with Indeed. Way above the competition on other job sites. And that's why they leave them in the dust is that they are always looking at how can we make it a better engaging experience for the job seeker? How can we make sure that the job seeker is getting the best quality experience on our platform? And if they keep continuing to take those actions, then job seekers are gonna continue to favor their site. That's why they people get such great results when they advertise.

Chad (29m 13s):

Yeah. I think it's more that they have more traffic and they have more candidates coming to them because they were ahead of everybody else going into the downturn when everybody else got killed and they came out of it on top of the hill and they've been ahead ever since. I don't think it has, I think you're fresh out of the Kool-Aid bin. You need to get off the Kool-Aid a little bit, Julie.

Julie (29m 38s):

No, sorry. I believe that Indeed climbed the mountain of success it is on today. It got there with great SEO. It got there winning all the traffic for the most common job seeker terms on Google, cuz that's where everybody went. They went to Google search for a job. That's how they climbed the mountain. But then they built a brand and a name that job seekers knew, and then they maintained that with great experience. So by delivering all that right, which is what we say any brand should do, that's how they became, But now they are gonna stay there because they are gonna improve that experience that goes beyond just find the job. It's find the role, get hired.

Joel (30m 20s):

It feels very much like, I guess, you know, Apple's strategy of everything you need to do is gonna be right here and you're gonna pay us a premium to have that convenience. Be with that brand that you trust. It's a fine line to continually walk that premium and brand trust. If they can do it more power to 'em. But history generally says when monopolies are created, monopolies fall and there's innovation dies, pricing goes, you know, through the roof and people start looking for an alternative if they can pull this off, you know, great. But I mean, just from the sounds of internally, they didn't know this was going on. People got caught flat footed on this.

Joel (31m 0s):

To me that doesn't reek of, hey, we're introducing the new iPhone and everyone's excited. It's like, what the fuck are we doing? You know, to me it's not excitement. It's like, oh my God, what does this mean? And that is not a good footing to be on. I mean, we'll see. Maybe you're drinking Kool-Aid, we'll give you a month to settle down, but you're, you're obviously sort of pro on this and I think a lot of people will like it. A lot of people won't.

Julie (31m 23s):


Joel (31m 23s):

A lot of people like Chad will be, I'm an Android guy and fuck all y'all and I'm going the alternative route.

Chad (31m 29s):

Yeah. And single point of failure, baby.

Julie (31m 33s):

I love that you just brought up the Apple phone thing on that because people have to build apps, right? For Droid or iOS, right? They have to play in both markets. That's exactly what's going to happen here. People are going to have to have two processes. One with Indeed and one with everything else.

Joel (31m 52s):


Julie (31m 52s):

Right? Because you are going to have to operate your career site, your ATS all of your screener questions and all of those things that you do from start to finish to manage your experience with all of the other vendors. And then you're also gonna have to have a process that's inside Indeed, using Indeed hire, using all of Indeed's tools where they deliver you the applicant and they never touch your ATS and they never touch your career site and all that tech that you pay for is irrelevant in that case.

Joel (32m 17s):

Yeah. And like Apple, if you don't want these users, you don't have to bet on our platform, but good luck not being on Apple and in this case, Indeed.

Julie (32m 26s):


Joel (32m 26s):

So maybe, maybe they've got the industry by the short and curlies, you know, maybe they, they're in the right place to do all this stuff and we have nothing to say about it.

Chad (32m 43s):

Evil genius, baby.

Joel (32m 43s):

All right guys, let's take a quick break and talk a little LinkedIn when we get back. All right. LinkedIn and Indeed, is this not the show that everyone's gonna listen to? All right. LinkedIn recently announced some new ad tools. Indeed isn't the only one announcing new shit. These tools help you maximize LinkedIn ad campaigns, including document ads, offline conversation, data integration, and a new media library for storing and sourcing ad content. For this conversation, let's focus on document ads. LinkedIn will now enable advertisers to promote long form documents, direct end users feeds, which can also be made available via signup.

Joel (33m 27s):

I see benefit to vendors and possibly employers looking to get a little bit creative in their advertising. Julie, more importantly, what's your take on LinkedIn's new document ads?

Julie (33m 37s):

Well, I'm glad that they're formalizing this into a product. It's probably one of the most common ways that people do B2B lead generation right now on LinkedIn is like, Hey, I got this really cool white paper, this really awesome piece of information that you want. So click here so that you can get access to it. And then who knows what that experience might look like that you get taken down the rabbit hole from when all you wanna do is just give 'em your information and get that stupid white paper. So well, they're gonna accelerate the potential for this to happen by making this a much better experience. Click a button, your information gets passed to the provider and then you get the asset that you're looking for. So streamlines it.

Julie (34m 17s):

I think it's a great thing.

Chad (34m 19s):

So lead gen pages are pretty much dead after this then. I mean, everything again just goes straight through LinkedIn cuz it'll be much easier. You just go ahead, you have your campaign set up, you put your document in and then if I go and I want it, I click, you know, I download and then it automatically sends my information to them and bang, bing, bang, boom, you're done.

Julie (34m 38s):

Yeah! Great. That's a great experience.

Joel (34m 41s):

Yeah. Yeah. Sounds like it. Yeah. Now what I love is, so Instagram has been doing this for a while, Facebook as well, but you typically just see a little ad, right? Hey, find out eight ways to optimize for TikTok or whatever, right? Like click here if you're interested and they pull in your Instagram account and then it automatically goes into the company and then you're, you know, then you're in the drip campaign. What I like about this is you actually get to sample, you know, up to three pages of the actual paper or content that you're downloading. And I think that's one thing that people would rather see, right? It's nice to get a good little headline and add about eight ways or 10 best ways and then put your shit in.

Joel (35m 21s):

But that typically isn't what you've actually signed up for. This gives you an actual piece of what you're getting. I think you're right in terms of B2B content marketing works very well. A good piece of content written by someone that they know and trust is a great way to fill that funnel. Where I think that it's missing is on the employer side in particular, there's a real opportunity for employers to produce content that's relevant to the people they're trying to recruit. So for example, if you're looking for technical people, you know, having your, your CTO or someone you know, write a paper about a programming language or you know, a new way to look at blockchain or you know, something that's relevant to your business, people are more likely passive job seekers in particular, more likely to download, you know what a CTO at a company I know is saying about something I care about than I would a job posting written by a recruiter employing, you know people at this job.

Joel (36m 24s):

And so I think a savvy employer is going to understand that they can get into the content marketing game and provide really good content and load their funnel up with good candidates that could be more, much more effective than, oh, let's just put a job posting up. Like employers need to get creative around how they get candidates into the funnel and I think this is a really cool way to do that.

Julie (36m 45s):

Yeah, I think there's potential for recruitment marketers to think about how to be creative with this. I mean, one that I would throw out there that I'd absolutely do right now is there's so many companies right now doing pay analysis, they're doing pay analysis of their own team and of the market.

Chad (37m 3s):


Julie (37m 3s):


Chad (37m 3s):


Julie (37m 4s):

So what if you were the company that said, I have a pay analysis report for these types of roles and here's where we sit, right? People would absolutely drool over that. If you're working in a certain type of role, you want that report so that you could see what it looks like across the market. And then to see that a company was being so openly positioning themselves as here's where we stand. We are not the top, we are in the middle, but here's why we think that's good. Like you're eating the candy and the Kool-Aid at the same time. Yeah. So I think that there's some really creative ways that might be able to be used

Joel (37m 45s):

And those creative companies will probably be on sharing those insights in case studies or learning about more from their peers. The only thing I'm more sick of than the Halloween candy that I ate last night is talking about Indeed fucking cost per applicant. I'm gonna be on a break from Indeed for a while, probably not cuz they're news all the time. But otherwise, I'm Joel, he's Chad, she's Julie.

Chad and Cheese (38m 14s):

We out, We out.

Julie (38m 16s):

We out.

OUTRO (39m 0s):

Thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast with Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of Shout Outs of people, you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any hoo be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. Is so weird. We out.


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