Gamify the Quit
Quit rates have reached record levels and employees are making their voices heard. But how can a company change the narrative and retain employees through empowering their people?
The lived experience of an employee working for Trianual is how founder and CEO Chris Ronzio defines culture and he's ready to bet $5,000 cash money that any aligned candidate will buy into his company and culture.
Wait a minute, is this really power to the people or a cheap publicity stunt? The numbers do not lie and the mantra of "Hold Us Accountable" can help hiring companies as they peer into the organizational mirror seeking answers. Will this type of strategy help your company thrive?
Trianual is thriving, listen to find out why.
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Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.
Oh yeah, baby. It's the Cult Brand version. You know, what's going on here today? Kids, our friend, Julie Calli from a recruitmentmarketing.com.
Who do we have as a guest today? What's going on?
We have Chris Ronzio CEO of Trainual joining us today.
What's up everyone?
Good to have you on the show. So give us a little Twitter bio about you. Who is Chris? Then we'll get into the company, but we want to know who you are. Give it up.
So who am I, Chris Ronsey. Oh, I live out in Scottsdale, Arizona, married with two kids and I have been an entrepreneur my whole life. So started at my first business when I was 14, grew that for 12 years. Sold, it started a consulting firm and then Trainual was a software product that spun out of that consulting. So a lot of businesses need to package together their culture, their brand, their story, their people, their policies, their processes, and you call it a playbook. What's the playbook for our business. So that's what Trainual is. So it's a software to help you collect all that and to onboard and train your new people.
Chad (1m 30s):
Okay. So I was out at the Phoenix open earlier this year. Were you there?
Chris (1m 35s):
Chad (1m 36s):
That thing is fucking crazy. I had no clue. You talk about a cult following, that thing, going to any PGA event, not even close, right. That is amazing. So you live there. So tell me a little bit about actually living there. How does it impact you as somebody who is local?
Chris (1m 57s):
Well, it makes my commute harder. It's like everyone, you know, from the whole country comes in to that little pocket of Scottsdale and I live walking distance from that golf course. So I'm like five minutes down the road. All the roads are closed. Everything, every field is turned into a parking lot. So it's like that two week period every year, we just, you almost want to like leave town, but it's a great party.
Chad (2m 19s):
You should, and Airbnb the hell out of your house because you'd make a ton of cash, right?
Julie (2m 26s):
Chris (2m 26s):
A hundred percent.
Chad (2m 27s):
Anyway, this is not about golf. This is about a little publicity. You got some publicity in a January earlier this year about a pay to quit or a pay to exit program. Can you quickly tell us about the program and also are you currently offering it?
Chris (2m 43s):
Yeah, we're still offering it. So this is something that we started doing in May of 2020 after we had a developer, a new developer start with us and five days into his job, he approached us and said, you know what? I've kind of, I've met the team. I understand what my role is going to be. And I think I should have taken this other opportunity that I had so I want to gracefully bow out. It was the first time anyone's ever done that to me. And, we just kind of sat back and thought, wow, I wonder how many people after a few days or a few weeks know that this isn't their longterm opportunity, but don't have another job lined up or don't have the courage to really say that. So we started this policy initially it was $2,500.
Chris (3m 26s):
Where two weeks into your employment, we would give you this offer and send you a message through our platform. We'd send you a message and say, you know, you've been here two weeks. It's your time to make a choice. Either you can take $2,500 and walk away, you know, to try to ease the burden of finding your next opportunity. Or you can turn that down and opt in with us and say, yes, this is where I want to be. And so it lets them choose long-term is this the right solution for them? Or do they want to just back out now? So we had no one take it for the first year. So in 2021, we up the stakes to $5,000. We've we've still had no one, no one take this offer over almost 50 people that we've offered it to.
Chris (4m 10s):
No one's taken it.
Julie (4m 11s):
Really are you advertising this in your job or is this part of your onboarding process?
Chris (4m 16s):
It used to be a secret until all the publications picked it up. So now people know, but it used to be a secret. And it was a fun secret because we didn't want people to know they were going to get this offer. But after they've gone through an amazing onboarding experience, we make them the offer and say, you know, Hey, you're in the driver's seat. We want to empower you to make the decision and to make sure that you're kind of, you know, double opting in you chose to accept our job offer, but now that you're on the inside, do you still want to be here? Do you still want to work here? And so it's, I think a powerful brand thing, a powerful culture thing to say the choice is yours because really an employee could leave at any time.
Chris (4m 56s):
And this just gives them that the power from the very beginning.
Julie (4m 59s):
And no one has taken you up on this since you've raised it to 5,000?
Chris (5m 4s):
No. So maybe we'll raise it again. Maybe it'll go to 7,000 or 10,000, but we'll see how it goes.
Julie (5m 14s):
Chad (5m 14s):
We keep throwing the word culture out there that don't get all flowery on me and shit here. How do you define culture specific to your organization?
Chris (5m 26s):
It's the actual experience of being here.
Chad (5m 27s):
Chris (5m 27s):
I don't know how else to say it.
Julie (5m 30s):
Oh, I love that. Nice directness.
Chad (5m 31s):
In some cultures you have kind of like bro cultures where it's very male. It's not, you know, a good mix, which is always bad, you know, obviously in the long-term. How do you take a look at your experience, right? Your culture itself and ensure that it is inclusive, especially when you're offering somebody an opportunity, Who could look a lot different than everybody else who's in the organization and they're like, oh man, I don't see anybody here like me. I'm going to go ahead and take the cash.
Chris (6m 6s):
Yeah. So, so how do we build inclusivity into what we do? Or how do we make people comfortable? I would say it starts in the hiring process. So we kind of think of working at Trainual, like, before you accept a job offer here, we sort of want you to test drive the car a little bit. We want you to meet as many of the people as you can. We want to, you know, get in a collaborative sort of work session with you. We have everyone do some form of like a sample project or something. So we can feel like what it would be, you know, working together. We shoot videos of everyone's bios and backgrounds that we send to people. We invite them into our platform, Trainual, where they go through a candidate training experience.
Julie (6m 49s):
I Imagine you have an advantage with that.
Chris (6m 52s):
Yeah. And so by the time they're getting an offer from us, we like them. They like us. They feel like they belong. They've heard, you know, gotten messages from dozens of our people on LinkedIn. They've met probably 10 plus people and had these long conversations and so we take that part of recruiting really seriously. And, so this, this offer at the end is really just a pulse check to say, now that you're on the inside, hold us accountable was everything that we told you upfront true? If it wasn't, this is a way for you to, you know, just back out and no hard feelings. You know, it's an offer we're going to continue making. But now that it's so public and we've had all this press about it, people kind of joke about it in their onboarding experience, like you guys better not mess up because you know, I know what it'll cost you.
Julie (7m 43s):
But here you are going out there creating almost a, you are a culture in yourself that you're creating an onboarding process that you're attracting people to your company, and they're not taking the offer is a Testament to how great the experience is through their onboarding, that they are feeling aligned with the attraction they're creating. So I feel like you're going to attract more people to want to come to your company, but you're putting on an experience that makes them want to stay.
Chad (8m 7s):
It feels like a power to the people kind of move.
Chris (8m 12s):
Totally. It puts the power in their hands, you know, because like I said before, the power is always in the employee's hands. You can always quit a job, but it used to be that employers felt like they had this leverage over people because you couldn't find a good job elsewhere. You couldn't find a high paying job. Now people can work for companies anywhere in the world. It's so easy to find opportunities. So the burden's on the company to be a place where people want to be. And so I think this is, you know, it's good for accountability that we're always asking ourselves, are we the best place for our people to be?
Chad (8m 45s):
So Zappos tried this back, I think it was like in 2008, Amazon Lob 18, Riot Games. I mean, they've all tried this idea and I don't think any of those organizations are offering this program today. So it automatically feels like a publicity stunt and I'm not hating because you got publicity, right. It feels like a publicity stunt. Is this a long-term strategy for you? Because for the other organizations, it didn't work out that way.
Chris (9m 12s):
Yeah. It's definitely a long-term strategy. So I think the difference with other organizations is they, first of all, the dollar amount was less and they were hiring positions that had more turnover. So call center type positions. And I think for them, it was an innovative idea. I got the idea from Zappos. I read Delivering Happiness, however long, you know, 10 years ago and thought, okay, I'm going to store that in the back of my head. So when we had that first person put in his notice, it felt like, well, maybe now's the time to do something like this. But for us, the average salaries that we pay here, a thousand dollars is not going to move the needle. Someone would rather just continue collecting their paycheck until they find their next gig.
Chris (9m 52s):
And so that's where we started at 2,500. That's why we raised it to 5,000 because we want people to actually feel like they're turning down something that matters. And so if we continue to raise it, it will be for the same reason. But you know, I'm not sure why they don't do it anymore, but for us in somebody's first two weeks, we're spending so much time and money on them, training them that this $5,000 is nothing.
Julie (10m 18s):
Chris (10m 19s):
Yeah. If we found out that someone wasn't a fit in the first couple of weeks and they bowed out, it's saving us money to pay $5,000 rather than finding out four months later, when now our pipeline for that role is dry. We don't have any other candidates. We have to start the recruiting process from scratch. We have to spend another couple of months getting the new person to a hundred percent productivity. It's like, this is a savings. This is a cost savings. So I don't know why anyone wouldn't think it it's a long-term strategy.
Julie (10m 49s):
Yeah and those companies that you, you were bringing up, Chad like Zappos and Amazon, a lot of them did that to offer opportunity for people that were disengaged, right? Like existing employees that are disengaged, but so much happens with companies that are making that promise. Like we're a great place to work. We're wonderful. We have this great culture, very close, and then people arrive and they see that that's not true. And then doesn't feel like there's alignment. I love how they you're talking about there's the math, there's savings behind this opportunity about to continue to invest in the employee. But I feel like you have a great advantage that you, you know, you are a company that creates playbooks.
Julie (11m 32s):
So you probably in your culture, it's like, if you can't get in line with the playbooks that are created here, then you won't be part of our culture because that's what we do here.
Chris (11m 44s):
Yeah. It's, you know, companies have a culture, they have, you know, cultural norms of things that are okay and not okay to do here. And every business has this, you know, there's, is it okay to wear jeans to work? Is it okay to wear, you know, your pajamas all day? Is it, do we do formal calls? Do we, you know, is it okay to use slang language? Do we curse and swear around here? Like there's norms at businesses and when companies don't express those norms upfront and explain to their new people, Hey, here's exactly what we expect let's be aligned on that. Then they get upset when the employees are breaking the rules that they didn't even know about, you know?
Chris (12m 24s):
And then, so we're trying to accelerate all that and say upfront, let's agree on all the norms, all the expectations let's be aligned on values. And, because, if we're not being truthful, you know, if working here is different than what we say it is, they're going to leave anyway. So why not get it out of the way and get it all up front?
Chad (12m 46s):
Yeah. Good point. So that first engineer that quit, I think it's pretty amazing that you didn't just do what most companies do and say, ah, what a Dick, right. You looked internally and you said, how can we fix this? Now, other than offering, you know, at that point $2,500, but other than offering $5,000, what did you change? Was there a big change at that point? Or was it really just the cash?
Chris (13m 13s):
We changed our interview process of identifying, you know, talking about someone, not just the role that someone was going to be in, but their path in the company, their aspirations beyond the role that they were applying for. And so in that guy's case, he wanted to be the engineering manager. And didn't realize that we had recently promoted someone on the team and he felt like he was going to be capped. And so, he said, you know, if I'm not going to be able to get promoted in six months or 12 months, I should have taken this other opportunity. And so, we introduced that to the hiring process to talk about, you know, what do you see your next few roles looking like, and your timeline so that we understand is this a long-term fit?
Julie (13m 54s):
Hold on a second. You let somebody exit feedback, change your hiring process? So that you could better align culture? That is fantastic!
Chad (14m 2s):
Yeah. So that's what's supposed to happen. Let's just put it that way. Right?
Chris (14m 9s):
Yeah. And so, but funny story though, actually about where the $2,500 number originally came from, was in the correspondence back and forth of this guy, he wasn't local, he was a remote employee. We send everyone a laptop and, you know, a very nice Macbook Pro, everyone gets their brand new equipment. And it was in the weeks of trying to get the laptop shipped back from this guy that it was like, you know what, we could be out that money anyway. We might as well pay people, like have some sort of like, you know, offer, that's where the $2,500 originally came from.
Chad (14m 46s):
Gotcha. Gotcha. So from a TA or brand perspective, this could easily make the brand look kind of cheap because it's kind of like, you know, it's a throw away. Right. Well, you know, I could go there, try it out. It's it's almost like a throwaway situation. Throwning away the company, throwing away the talent. How do you guys focus on pushing a brand that doesn't look throw away, that this is more power to the people kind of scenario, right. How did you do that? How did you encapsulate something that was more positive as opposed to more cheap and transactional?
Chris (15m 18s):
Well, it's funny after all the stories, you know, went through the news cycles. I mean, it was popping up everywhere on, you know, Forbes and Entrepreneur and Inc and Fast Company. And my mom sent me a screenshot from people.com and, you know, I always hoped that I'd be on People for like the sexiest man alive thing, but that did not happen. But it was everywhere. And so the traffic to our career page literally spiked 30,000%. I'm not making that number up, like from Google analytics, it was 30,000 and change percent at the career page. And so we get all these applications, but you know, the burdens on us to sift through those and not make offers to the wrong people.
Chris (16m 3s):
And so I think if we were a really high volume, you know, kind of business where we're hiring hundreds of people, then maybe the brand thing could be tarnished by like, oh, just, you know, try and, you know, it doesn't work and whatever? For us, we're only extending offers to a handful of people that we think are absolutely all stars. We hire not, not just from the 30,000 cohort, but looking back in the last three or four years, we extend offers to something like one and a half percent of applicants. And so when we're really selective of how we go through that process, I think it's, you know, the person's excited to work here.
Chris (16m 43s):
They don't want to just take the money and leave.
Julie (16m 47s):
Like a culture curation.
Chad (16m 49s):
And one of the quotes from the business insider article says that, this program also holds the hiring team accountable because there's a cost to the business if they get it wrong. Two questions for me, who is seen from as you, from your view as the quote unquote "hiring team", number one, and number two, accountability is good, but what happens on the other side? What happens if they get it right?
Chris (17m 14s):
Interesting. So with our process, we see a hiring team as we have like a talent partner on our people ops team. And then we've got a hiring manager from the department that's going to be the whoever the person reports to. And then we've got other, you know, peers of the team that they're going to be on that participate in the process. And so it's really a team thing. And it's a different group of people for every different role. And so it's not like the accountability or the burden is going to fall on one single person. But as a company, we're measuring this because if we were paying out one out of four, people are taking this offer, then we've got to go back to the drawing board and say, well, what are we not screening for in the hiring process that they thought this would be a fit and it's not?
Chris (18m 1s):
Or what is the feedback they gave in the exit interview, which they have to provide the feedback to, you know, for the payment on their way out. What can we do to improve that onboarding process or the hiring process so that this won't be the end result. So I think it's just, it makes it tangible. You know, there's always a cost to turnover and nobody wants to have new hires workout, but when you've got that dollar amount in the back of your head, and you know, that those offers are getting sent to the four new people on Friday afternoon, it adds a little layer of accountability to say, hopefully, I hope we picked people that really want to be here.
Julie (18m 40s):
Yeah. Money where your mouth is. So what does the team look like in the structure to that causes that feedback loop? Because it sounds like you're constantly adjusting your playbooks for the types of talent you're hiring, versus how you're doing the onboard process. How do you make sure the right people are talking to each other that that loop happens?
Chris (19m 1s):
Good question. So, since the beginning of the company, we've done quarterly engagement service, which sounds corporate or something, but we ask really simple questions. Like, you know, what could we do better here? Do you feel comfortable? Do you have friends at work? Do you know a lot of these questions just about how we could improve the environment and they're all confidential. So we don't know who's saying what it's just kind of the collective answers. You know, managers also have great relationships with their direct reports on one-on-ones, that they're getting non-confidential feedback. And we celebrate when people are suggesting better ways that we can do things. So I think that's part of the culture, and especially at Trainual a company that makes software for best practices and things to be documented has to celebrate new best practices and innovation.
Chris (19m 49s):
And so every time people are giving us that feedback in a survey or in a one-on-one or a direct slack message to me, we can go back and make the change in the next all hands and credit that person and say, oh, you know, Lauren suggested that instead of, you know, having the same person from every department give updates every week, we invite different people in so you get to hear from different voices. That was a great suggestion. So today we're going to have this, this, and this person, and then people want to give that feedback. And they, because they know that they'll get credit for their good ideas. So short answer is just a continuous cycle of asking these questions and then of actually taking action on people's feedback.
Chris (20m 32s):
At every quarterly all hands that we do at follows those engagement surveys. We put screenshots of feedback up on the screen to kind of hold the mirror up to ourselves and say, this is something someone said, we're going to take this seriously and we'll report back on this at the next meeting. And then it's fun to see the changes that happen based on what people say.
Chad (20m 54s):
So where companies really screwed this up is when the grow right. Because many of these programs, they just can't scale. Right? You get a core group of individuals who really get it, they believe in it, but then you grow right. And it's hard to scale that. So how do you see the scaling within the organization as you grow?
Chris (21m 14s):
Well, first of all, so we do, OKRs is our big kind of strategic objectives for the year. And one of our OKR is for this, this year is called staying aligned, and we put it to the BGS song staying alive. So we made it like a top five company priority to continue to scale our culture as we grow, because it's such a special part of being here, you know, of the company. And it, I really feel like this, the group of people that we have, you could pivot to solve another problem and do just as well. But when you've got a really strong community and group of people that, you know, just get along and work well together, you can accomplish a lot.
Chris (21m 56s):
And so for us, you know, we're almost 90 people right now, we'll grow to 110, 120 this year. It's a huge focus. And every milestone in the journey for us to stay as open and transparent, and as good at communicating as we have been in the earlier years.
Julie (22m 14s):
But you're serving a much larger customer base, right? So the people that you're bringing in have to believe in not only your culture, but what you're providing, and that is right now such a needed service that so many people are learning how to do their job while sitting in their living room. You know, the remote adaption has been tremendous. I imagine that's put a lot of fast adaption for you as well to serve such a large audience.
Chris (22m 46s):
Yeah. It's been amazing. You know, we have the benefit, I guess, and the luxury to just experiment and then be able to show here's what worked for us, you know, as a company with playbooks and best practices and processes and policy is every time we figure something out ourselves, we get to a new level of growth, or we have some issue. Someone gets their laptop stolen. So all of a sudden we have like a, you know, a computer monitoring service that we put into place, and we've got a security policy. Now we can share that with the whole community, you know, 10,000 businesses or something that might have the same kind of challenge at business. And we say, this worked for us maybe you need this too?
Chris (23m 26s):
So it's been fun to be like, kind of a guinea pig for growth problems. And then share those out as marketing content, which is a cool cycle.
Julie (23m 39s):
You throw a great conference for what I was hearing about the playbook conference. Last year, you had Shaq at your conference last year as a guest speaker?
Chad (23m 51s):
Shaquille O'Neal? What?
Chris (23m 53s):
Shaquille O'Neal. You may not know this Shaq is like one of the most prolific business guys. Like he, if you look up NBA player, net worth or something, you know, his net worth is creeping into the like half a billion dollar range and I'm sure will continue to grow. He's had over 400 different businesses, like, you know, a lot of franchise locations and, you know, whether it's gyms or fast food restaurants or insurance, or, you know, and he knows how to create good partnerships and then use his celebrity to fuel those partnerships. And so it was funny. We have a slack channel that was like just a random things.
Chris (24m 34s):
And people started posting pictures of Shaq that they'd see around after Playbook and so we renamed the channel, Random Shaq Sightings, and now everybody's just like dumping Shaquille O'Neal stuff in there. But yeah, the conference is so fun. We had Shaquille O'Neal, we had Gary V, we had Daymond John last year, we've had like some incredible operators of, you know, businesses. And so we try to mix it up and teach people a little bit about scaling the foundations of each department, you know, like how do you scale your people operations? And how do you scale your marketing and your brand? And how do you scale a sales team and all these structural things that everybody's working on? That's what the conference is about is sharing playbooks.
Chris (25m 18s):
So we had just over 5,000 people last year and aiming for 10,000 in this fall. Right.
Julie (25m 22s):
Wow that's exciting.
Chad (25m 22s):
Excellent. So last question, Chris, you can breathe easy after this one. So you got a lot of press, right? And it was funny because I posted the press out in the Facebook groups and there were a lot of haters out there, man, Twitter, Facebook, just all over the place. So what do you say to the haters when they come at you and say, this is just Zappos 2.0, it didn't work for them. It's not gonna work for you. What do you say, man?
Chris (25m 50s):
Yeah. It's funny people that have time to hate on other people's stuff. What else are they doing? I got so many messages that were just kind of like.
Chad (25m 58s):
It's apparently it's a good business. Yeah.
Chris (25m 60s):
I have funny messages that were like, you know, here's my Venmo QR code. Can you just send me five grand so I don't have to apply.
Chad (26m 10s):
Let's cut through the shit right now just send me the five grand. Let's do this.
Chris (26m 13s):
Yeah. And then I got like sad stories of people that were like, you know, I've like my family is really struggling and like, if you're paying $5,000 just for someone to quit, like, can you donate money to me? And you know, and so people come out of the woodwork for when you, when you get press and you can't expect that it's all going to be good. So I would just say, you know, like if, if you don't think it works for you then fine, it's an idea. You know, people we're, all of us are just trying things, strategies, ideas, we're putting them out there. This works for me. It's not to get press it's something we actually have done for the last two years. We didn't make this up. So ask any of my employees that got this offer, what they thought. And, you know, we didn't talk about that part, but when you don't take the offer, you also have to describe why.
Chris (27m 2s):
And some of the stuff that we've gotten as positive reinforcement of our first couple of weeks of orientation has improved the orientation more than even some negative feedback could I think so. So it's been such a win for us. That's what I would tell them.
Chad (27m 17s):
Yeah. So Julie, in closing what Chris just said, I think it is poignant is that everybody wants to try to make it black or white, right? This is going to work or it's not going to work. You know, there's no gray out there. And I think many cult brands, all the cult brands that are out there, they found gray. They worked in the gray and they killed it in the gray. What do you think about that?
Julie (27m 42s):
I mean, people are going to hate, what's great. It's working. It sounds like it's working for Chris and his company and what his company's about and its purpose. Right? Put, be real clear with their playbooks, be real upfront. It sounds like the purpose that your company delivers is embedded in its culture and it's working for you. So that's fantastic. And I think it really should be inspiring to other companies. It doesn't mean you have to do this, but go find what aligns with your purpose and make that part of your onboarding and part of your attraction. That's cult.
Chris (28m 18s):
It's healthy pressure. You know, when you put something like this on yourself and you say worst case scenario, everyone that applies here, we have to pay out this $5,000 like that would be devastating. That would break the bank, you know, but, but the looming fear of that makes you not want that to happen. And so you behavior, correct, you know, to create a great experience that doesn't happen, so it's a healthy accountability. I think when I was consulting, I used to do something where I'd pay people $500 if they thought a coffee meeting with me was a waste of their time and never had to pay it out, but it was a great offer. And it put healthy accountability on me to create value at the meeting.
Chris (28m 59s):
Chad (29m 0s):
Yeah. I think there's a big message here. It's get out of the damn box, right? Everybody's trying to work in the box. And when people are getting out of the box with different ideas that you keep getting told, get back in the box. No, we've got to bust out of this. And if COVID, didn't teach us a thing about doing business differently than we haven't learned anything kids! That's Chris Ronzio, founder and CEO of Trainual. Well, Chris, if listeners want to find out more about you or they want to find out more about your organization, where can they do that?
Chris (1m 9s):
Trainual.com or ChrisRonzio.com. And I mostly hang out on LinkedIn and Instagram.
Chris (29m 38s):
So feel free to look me up. I'd love to connect with anyone.
Chad (29m 49s):
Excellent man. Really appreciate it, Julie, that's another one in the can. We out.
Julie (29m 55s):
OUTRO (30m 40s):
Thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast with Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of Shout Outs of people, you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any hoo be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode. And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. Is so weird. We out.