Ghosting, Grinding, and Getting Screwed: Job Search in 2026

The job market is broken… and this episode pulls zero punches about why.

Employer brand expert Jillian O’Malior joins Chad, Cheese, and JT O’Donnell to talk about the modern job search hellscape: 600 applications, five-round interviews, ghosting, AI resume spam, and jobs that magically disappear after three months of interviews. Sound familiar?

We dive into why companies are quietly downgrading VP jobs into “manager” roles, how AI hype is giving execs cover to cut headcount, and why today’s hiring process makes candidates feel less like humans and more like spam in an ATS black hole.

Plus:

• Why recruiters are drowning in AI-generated garbage resumes

• The real reason companies are flattening org charts and crushing salaries

• Why posting brutally honest job search content on LinkedIn might actually be the best personal brand strategy

• And the mental health toll of 15 months of rejection emails and ghosting

If you’ve ever applied for a job and thought, “What the hell is going on?” this episode explains exactly why the system is so screwed up.

Grab a drink. This one gets real.

PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION

Joel Cheesman (00:30.407)

Yeah, it's the podcast your bartender warned you about. Hey, boys and girls, it's the chat and cheese podcast. I'm your co host Joel Cheesman joined as always Chad. Sowash is in the house as well as JT O'Donnell, you know, we're in lovers. We welcome Jillian O'Malior to the show. She's an expert in employment branding, workplace culture and talent attraction. Jillian Welcome to HR is most dangerous podcast.

Chad Sowash (00:40.844)

Sup?

Jillian O'Malior (00:57.144)

Thank you for having me.

Joel Cheesman (00:59.129)

she sounds excited chat. She sounds excited. Well, well, Jillian, a lot of our listeners probably won't know you although you have a huge following on on the socials. Give us sort of a little bit about what makes Jillian tick.

Jillian O'Malior (01:00.726)

Hahaha

Chad Sowash (01:01.323)

Hahaha!

JT ODonnell (01:01.977)

She's ready, she's ready.

Jillian O'Malior (01:13.09)

Yeah, so I've been doing the employer brand talent marketing thing for about 10 years now. I did most of it at KRT marketing to start and then Recruitix. But I was doing in-house marketing and brand before that. But mostly I'm just, I am really, really big on talking about stuff that no one's very comfortable talking about.

Chad Sowash (01:41.299)

you're at the right place. Welcome. Welcome.

Jillian O'Malior (01:43.297)

Yeah.

Jillian O'Malior (01:47.407)

Outside of that, I just hang out with my daughter all the time. I'm a single mom. We do all kinds of stuff. She's a competitive dancer, so my weekends are really consumed with sitting in dark rooms with really loud music pounding at me. Yeah, they do not belong to me. They do not at all. Yeah, exactly. It's basically like going to a rave every single weekend that you paid an absurd amount of money for, and it's only kind of fun.

Chad Sowash (01:57.943)

Yes.

Chad Sowash (02:01.44)

They're not yours.

Joel Cheesman (02:05.425)

That's just called Tuesday at my house, sitting alone in the dark.

Chad Sowash (02:09.957)

Joel Cheesman (02:14.961)

Hello.

Chad Sowash (02:17.209)

Joel being a competitive dancer, yeah, that's a great sight.

Jillian O'Malior (02:17.443)

Mm-hmm that makes sense that makes sense

Joel Cheesman (02:21.967)

And I am, I'm also the songbird of my generation in case you ever want one party, some party entertainment. Yeah. Entertainment value. well we're here cause you, got some problems with the job market as does JT and Chad and I, don't have nearly the experience with searching for a job is, is you to do with your own experiences as well as people you talk to. So, how should we start this thing? Do we want to go to the video? Do we want to like,

Jillian O'Malior (02:27.468)

I've heard that. I've heard that. Yeah.

Jillian O'Malior (02:32.696)

Yeah, that's me.

Yes.

Chad Sowash (02:49.26)

Right out of the gate, mean, we've heard it over and over, right? And it comes from a variety of people who have jobs. They don't understand the market, right? just people are bitching and moaning and what are they whining about? So this first video sets us up perfectly because I don't think that a lot of people like Joel and I,

Joel Cheesman (02:52.55)

Yeah.

Chad Sowash (03:19.104)

both talking about this, we understand what we read, we understand BLS data, we understand, which isn't always great, also a lot of the other data points from like the Aspen Techs and whatnot, so we have to do a lot of research, but most individuals in our industry do not do that. So let's roll that first video and like set this up.

Joel Cheesman (03:40.465)

All right, let's go.

Chad Sowash (05:05.292)

Okay, say more. 500 jobs, that's a lot.

Joel Cheesman (05:12.485)

And for those that don't know, Jillian, you're currently looking for a job. So you're coming at this from the perspective of applying and seeing firsthand what's going on. So for those that aren't doing that, give us sort of a day in the life of job searching right

Jillian O'Malior (05:18.786)

Yes.

Chad Sowash (05:20.374)

Good point,

Jillian O'Malior (05:25.998)

Yeah, absolutely. I'll just kind of set the scene. I was laid off in November of 2024. So we're at 15 1 1.5 months of job seeking. And so really what it looks like is you're going through, you're searching for jobs, not just going to LinkedIn and Indeed. You are contacting your network. You are reaching out to people. are looking, for me, I'm looking at anything that's

agency related within recruitment marketing. You are tailoring your resume, making sure that at the very least you're hitting some of the keywords that you can see in the job description and making sure they're highlighted on your resume. Sometimes you're doing a cover letter, sometimes you're not doing a cover letter and you're submitting it via the career site to the ATS.

So then what's happening is sometimes you get a rejection within 25 minutes. Sometimes you get a rejection at 3 AM on a Sunday. A lot of people got rejections on Christmas Day, which I thought was really interesting. Sometimes you hear absolutely nothing at all. That's actually the vast majority. You apply to something and you're like, well, it was nice meeting you. Never hear from you again.

And then what's happening is if you do manage to get through and usually what I found is the jobs that you get through are not the ones that you're just like Applying to it's someone you had an employee referral you had some kind of an in So you're going through you get an actual interview and then you do another interview and then another one and then another one and then another one and it's three and half months later You've had five to six interviews for this job

Chad Sowash (07:14.742)

Holy shit.

Jillian O'Malior (07:16.48)

And then three and a half months later, they go, so we actually decided to change the parameters entirely. And do you have this totally niche experience? I went through a process where I didn't hear for a month. And then I just checked in and said, hey, interested where you are in the process? because it was in the beauty industry, they said, yeah, we liked you, but we decided that we also need someone who has like pro stylist experience.

Chad Sowash (07:34.87)

Mm-hmm.

Jillian O'Malior (07:45.677)

So a decade of brand leadership and be a licensed hairstylist to do this job. And I went, got it. Exactly. But that's happening or what's also happening because this has been really common for me as you go through the multiple rounds and the multiple months and they go, yeah, so we decided we're just not gonna fill it.

Chad Sowash (07:55.277)

Well in this time frame I could have gotten my damn license for goodness sakes. I mean, Jesus.

Jillian O'Malior (08:13.518)

We changed our minds. We don't want to do this anymore. And you're like, that was four months. Awesome. Nice to meet you. And that's just what it's been. It's 90 % to 95 % of what you apply to. You don't hear a word.

A bunch you just get the automated rejection email. And then when you go through the process, it is multiple months, multiple rounds of interviews and assessment and assignments jumping through hoops and then the job just disappears.

Chad Sowash (08:49.036)

So JT, expound upon this because you've, I mean, you're...

Joel Cheesman (08:51.291)

JT is doing a lot of nodding if you're not watching the video. She's doing a lot of nodding.

JT ODonnell (08:53.305)

Yeah, I mean, we can go back and look at the Great Recession. We can go back and dissect times when there were more job seekers than jobs, right? But I think this one is particularly unique. We're sitting in this perfect storm moment. So not only are we in an economic time where there's a lot of restructuring, but you have this thing called AI that's making every executive

try to figure out what headcount should look now in the future. And by the way, it better be less because, you know, the people governing them are saying you better be doing something with AI or you aren't doing your job, right? So you have this perfect store moment where companies don't want to hire and the marching orders publicly are contract, you know, cut down, cut down, cut down. So that is putting every company in this very strange holding pattern. And it's not uncommon for them to be going through the paces and then say, well,

Do we really need this head count? Like, what if I need that for something else? so like Jillian's story, sadly, is one that I hear over and over and over again. The problem is that when you are at the level that Jillian's at and others and every executive out there, we somehow believe that we're supposed to be able to do this ourselves and that the way that we are doing this is very strategic. Historically about the nine month mark of being unemployed is when that more executive level person will go, you know what, something's not working here.

Right? Because you can justify it over those first three months, six months, but you get to nine months and you start to go, I'm coming up on a year, something's not right. That's when people start to realize that the way to get those jobs is completely different now. The jobs you really want aren't sitting on a job board. They will never be on a job board. And it's not who you know because too many of your friends are holding onto jobs, job hugging, and actually secretly don't want to help you get a job because they're afraid you might outshine them or whatnot. So if it's not who you know anymore, it's who knows you.

So you have to change your entire approach to getting work right now. And it's a visibility game, very intentional visibility game.

Chad Sowash (10:52.758)

Is it also that they're not hiring as much at the executive level because those salaries are so much higher? So instead of having a VP or what have you, they might just go ahead and have a director consume everything and take responsibility for everything that the VP used to do. So they'll eliminate a high pay salary in literally, and again, that.

that job might be posted next thing you know, they're like, you know what? No, we're not gonna do that. Has that been happening? Have you seen from your applications, Jillian, is that like they're just ghosting or vanishing?

JT ODonnell (11:26.467)

So.

Jillian O'Malior (11:31.626)

Yeah.

I've definitely seen that with anything that's, know, because where I was, was at the VP level at Recruitix. And so I'm applying to director and above stuff. Those don't seem to really exist. But then what you are seeing is you'll see the manager level thing and you're reading through it and you're like, that is a director level role. There is so much that this job is doing. You're requiring 10 years of experience, but you're calling it a manager.

Chad Sowash (11:41.6)

Mm-hmm.

Chad Sowash (11:55.562)

Hahaha

Chad Sowash (12:02.485)

Mm-hmm.

Jillian O'Malior (12:04.516)

so that you can pay a third of what that role, you know, three years ago was being paid.

Joel Cheesman (12:11.397)

And are they able to do that because of there's so much more supply than demand or because AI will give you this like be able to. Yeah.

JT ODonnell (12:11.982)

And I will.

Jillian O'Malior (12:14.86)

Yeah. Yeah.

Chad Sowash (12:18.668)

JT's talked about it before where they're literally pressing down wages and you press down the wages by the title at this point.

Joel Cheesman (12:27.291)

And we've also talked about resume Botox, where you take skills off to make yourself more marketable to those jobs. Is that something that's happening as well?

Chad Sowash (12:29.932)

Hahahaha

JT ODonnell (12:34.233)

Yeah, no, you get it. like the story of Goldilocks. It can't be too little. can't be too much. It needs to be just right. So that's how you have to tie yourself into that. To answer your question though, Joel, there are a flattening of organizations right now. There's far less managerial roles, but also all the trends start in tech and tumble everywhere else. This year in 2026 in the tech world, average no longer cuts it.

Jillian O'Malior (12:40.354)

Mm-hmm.

Chad Sowash (12:41.334)

That's right.

JT ODonnell (13:01.879)

You need to be the best of the best of the best and you need to be leveraging AI. You need to be like a CMO running it. So the expectation level of what is expected from you has skyrocketed. They are literally saying there's no room for average because there's enough AI tools. I want above average using AI to do the work of 20, 30, 50 people. So that is coming in hot right now and that's gonna have that trickle down effect.

that's going to hurt even more people. If you really want to play at that higher level now, you are going to have to think and act and talk so knowledgeably that it is undeniable that you're worthy of that.

Joel Cheesman (13:39.879)

Is that realistic or is that the powers that be saying, look, AI, everyone's doing AI. We need to push it. We need to get people that have this. But we're also seeing stories where people are exhausted with doing so much more that AI is to do for you and they're taking on more. So my question is, it realistic that companies have this expectation that you're going to be a unicorn because of AI?

JT ODonnell (14:08.577)

In a market like this, is, think about supply and demand, right? Right now, they sit in the driver's seat. So they absolutely can just expect that of their folks. Now the pendulum always swings and eventually it'll swing in another direction and that might change. know, they might then start to hire additional help to deal with the AI fatigue. There's also a real genuine belief. And if we just look at how we've all watched AI evolve over the last year, right? It's been insane what it used to be able to do to what it can do now.

That kind of perfection isn't going to stop. That's why I do believe, you know, the Microsoft executive that said all the white collar tasks, tasks can be automated and people are like, no, they will be, they will be. So you have to be the brain behind the bots going forward to have a job.

Chad Sowash (14:36.086)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (14:38.119)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (14:52.251)

Yeah. Jillian, we read a lot about lazy apply and AI applied. So you said none of that in your, in your, like in your commentary, there was no, like, I've cranked up the AI. I'm applying to thousands of jobs an hour. Like, have you thought about that? Have, did you vote against, like in your journey, did you sort of explore that and say, no, that's, that's not what I want to do. Or are you to a point where like, you know what I'm going to, let's go, let's try it.

Jillian O'Malior (15:05.998)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Jillian O'Malior (15:13.548)

Yeah.

Jillian O'Malior (15:17.966)

I voted against, I am, so I talk a lot about AI in my content and one of the things that I've had to be very clear on is like, I am not anti-AI at all. I actually absolutely see it as a tool to help people move forward. I'm against the worship of it.

And they're like, it's gonna do everything. It's gonna fix everything. You just like yeah, you do this like automatic apply because what's happening is I was just talking with someone who leads recruitment for a hospital and they're you know, they're trying to fill a lab tech role in their hospital and they were like the number of forklift driver applications I've been getting is insane and I don't understand it and I was like, those are people using

AI tools where they're just like matching random keywords and saying like, yeah, let's, let's apply you to this lab tech role because here's five words that have nothing to do with the role that matched. so I, I'm not really into using AI that way. have used it through the process. I've used it to like take the job description, take my resume and be like, where do I tighten? Where do I tweak? Where do I make sure that I'm, you know, highlighting the right aspects of my experience.

Chad Sowash (16:13.354)

Mm-hmm.

Jillian O'Malior (16:36.578)

to better align with this role. But yeah, mean, recruiters are seeing that where the sheer volume that they're getting, and so much of it is just garbage. It's no one that's even remotely qualified for the role. But then what that's doing is it's watering down the folks that are. Because you're just like, I can't scroll through 1,000 resumes so everybody gets a second of my attention. But that includes, yeah.

Chad Sowash (17:03.508)

Which is why we need to these tools on the the at the top of the funnel because all of this is happening. Now we have to be able to smartly on the TA side of the house. We have to be able to really. Have the requirements for the job. We have to ensure those individuals meet those requirements and hopefully they're being self validated by the by the actual job seekers know that this whole FICRA things happening.

So at the end of the day, mean, we've got to start installing tech to be able to scale along with the lazy apply craziness that's happening. Do you think that and again, you talked about the 25 minutes to 3 a.m. or the black hole. think obviously the black hole is the worst out of all of them. But does it really bother you in 25 minutes or even after?

hitting a no on a question that demonstrates that you might not be qualified or they don't think you're qualified. Do you think like if you got an instantaneous, sorry, but you you're not for us, is that a bad thing or is that really a good thing?

Jillian O'Malior (18:11.502)

think a lot of times it's a bad thing because I get those with, I'm really discerning about the way that I apply. Even though I'm at like 600 applies, I'm very discerning about what I go for because I want to optimize my chance as much as possible. I got a 25 minute rejection after using an employee referral code. Like I had an employee at the company who was like,

Chad Sowash (18:15.178)

Yeah, okay.

Chad Sowash (18:23.564)

Mm.

Chad Sowash (18:29.196)

Mm.

Jillian O'Malior (18:39.886)

I can refer you in, here's the code, you know, to show that you are aligned with me. And it was an employer brand director role. It was, I mean, it was just my resume regurgitated into a job description. So I was like, at the very least, I could get into an interview and I could move it forward. And in 25 minutes I was out.

Chad Sowash (18:47.743)

huh.

Joel Cheesman (18:53.201)

Wow.

Chad Sowash (19:00.054)

So think it's like bias against that employee maybe?

Jillian O'Malior (19:03.182)

I didn't even think about it that way. It's very, knowing that person very likely. But I think it's, you we've run into this too on sort of the TA side is that when you set up your knockout questions, your filters too extreme, you're kicking out.

Joel Cheesman (19:10.663)

So be discerning. Wouldn't me.

Chad Sowash (19:12.726)

Joel.

Jillian O'Malior (19:29.686)

a ton of people. And I hear this a lot from TA folks where they talk about a talent shortage right now. it's like, that's not the frame. It's a talent access issue. You're not being able to access the right talent because you're getting all these AI resumes or your ATS is set up in a way that it's deprioritizing people based on random unnecessary things. There is not a talent shortage. Some of the most talented people I know are looking for work right now.

It's an access issue.

Chad Sowash (20:02.732)

JT, thoughts?

JT ODonnell (20:03.277)

Yeah, well I just think you're gonna see the demise of ATS systems as we know them because it is forever broken. Like if you just hear the pain and suffering she's gone through as a job seeker, the way to fix it is to not have the process that way anymore. Why should be people spending all this time applying only to be auto rejected? Like if we know that's what it's creating, that needs to stop. We need to change how that works.

Jillian O'Malior (20:08.686)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (20:26.627)

funny story again why I ATSs are going to die. One of my clients just got a brand new job back channeled into the company applied, right? But back channeled in, got the job offer and then HR went and said, you never finished your application in the system, right? So could you just go back and complete the application for this job in the system? Cause we need that to cross the T's and dot the I's. She got an auto rejection notice that she didn't get the job.

Chad Sowash (20:49.068)

Ouch.

JT ODonnell (20:52.701)

forwarded to the manager said, is this a thing? He's like, no, no, just disregard. It was just a formality to have you in the system. you you hear stories like that and you know that unfortunately the technology these companies have spent a lot of money on and I get it, it's legacy and tech debt are obsolete now and there are new and better ways to build systems for finding the right talent that like Jillian is so rightly saying, it's an access issue. We need to change how you get access to the right talent. So they're not feeling that rejection.

Chad Sowash (21:20.652)

I think a lot, mean, not all of it, there's also a good part of that is that the town acquisition admins, they're not experts in actually the process and or the tech that they're putting together, right? So they're building tech stacks and they're in charge of it. And to be quite frank, they really don't know what the hell they're doing. So therefore, this is what's happening because I've been in, I don't know how many times,

tech stacks talking through process methodology. Why are you doing this? What is here and the admins there and they have no fucking clue and it's like Holy shit. I mean you guys are bitching about the applicant tracking system being the problem I mean it could be to some extent but you know, there's a shared responsibility that's happening here and for some reason, know There's a lot of finger pointing that's happening In but I do agree much of the the newer tech today

It is it's a lot more seamless. It is quicker and to be quite frank, I would rather receive personally a thanks but no thanks in a few seconds so I can get that it's going to hurt for a minute. I get it. But waiting and waiting and waiting, I'd rather do that than 25 minutes.

JT ODonnell (22:38.073)

Oddly enough, and Jillian and I'll ask you this question, they recently did a test where people could have a, hey, we've seen that you might be a potential match for this job. Can we have a, this is a bot, we're not real, but we can have a conversation with you. Can we ask you a few questions on basis of that? We'll tell you if you're moving forward, right? Versus the other group just got an auto rejection if they weren't a fit. The people that went through this, they had the conversation, the bot said, hey, for these reasons you're not moving forward. All of those people said, that's fine.

Jillian O'Malior (22:40.398)

Mm-hmm.

Chad Sowash (22:54.262)

Mm.

JT ODonnell (23:07.257)

Even though they knew it was a bot, it was the way that it went that they could accept versus this no idea why auto rejection that looks like everyone else. So think about that. Like we have that now and people aren't using it.

Chad Sowash (23:09.388)

They just want to be heard as well. Yeah. Yes.

Joel Cheesman (23:12.401)

Yeah.

Jillian O'Malior (23:17.548)

Yeah.

Chad Sowash (23:17.76)

Yeah, yeah. Well, if you take a look at the eightfold FICRA like lawsuit, it's almost like pushing toward where if you do get, you know, booted, they need to provide you with the transparency of why, you know, and I think that's fair. I can almost guarantee you, Jillian, you think that's fair, too. I think everybody would just to know. Like if I didn't get a car loan, I want to know what that

JT ODonnell (23:36.067)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Chad Sowash (23:47.456)

why, you know, and it's only fair that that I understand that. So, I mean, I don't know. It just seems like it's all moving that way, but I don't know how fast it'll get there.

Jillian O'Malior (23:54.638)

.

Jillian O'Malior (23:59.191)

Yeah, I think the interesting thing that I keep seeing is there's obviously there's a lot of like squabbling between job seekers and recruiters on social media and the recruiters like, well, what do want us to do? We can only hire one person for this job. And everyone's like, yeah, we're aware of how jobs work. We understand that we got it. But the thing that job seekers keep saying is like, I don't feel like a human being in this. I don't feel like a

Chad Sowash (24:08.086)

Mm-hmm.

Jillian O'Malior (24:28.302)

I don't like I send these out and I just feel like I'm being rejected with no real explanation one of the big Triggers that people I have found that job seekers have in like the automated email that they get back is we went with a more qualified candidate Because then these job seekers are like that you reposted the job a month later You didn't go with a more qualified candidate. Just remove that sentence from your automated emails

Joel Cheesman (24:53.607)

Hmm.

Jillian O'Malior (24:57.71)

It is triggering the hell out of people. But it's just this idea of feeling totally dehumanized through the process. Because we all know you submit a resume, right? Your resume is supposed to be concise and this and that. And you're like, how do I fit 15 years of expertise into a sheet of paper and I fit it in in a way that a computer will say,

Chad Sowash (24:57.74)

Mm.

Joel Cheesman (25:08.177)

Yeah.

Jillian O'Malior (25:26.83)

Okay, you get to see a human being now. The humans will see you now. And that's the thing that people just, can't quite figure out how to do it. And then you've got, you know, a lot of scammers that are reaching out and they're like, well, I can show you how to pass the blah, blah, blah score that all the ATS is use and trying to educate people. like, that's not a thing. It's not a thing. So you've got, yeah.

Joel Cheesman (25:29.511)

Yeah.

Chad Sowash (25:45.536)

Yeah, yeah.

JT ODonnell (25:49.166)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (25:51.463)

You your comment about dehumanizing sort of sets up another video that we wanted to share with everyone. So let's watch that real

Chad Sowash (26:09.888)

James. Master.

Chad Sowash (27:16.79)

So Jillian, we have, as Gen Xers, I think most of us, Jillian is probably a millennial, we've been taught that our job is us, right? We live to work, we live to work. And it seems as if, especially in a time like this, when so many people do not have work, that...

Jillian O'Malior (27:25.622)

Elder millennial, yeah.

Chad Sowash (27:47.211)

they are desperate. to be quite frank, I mean, so talk a little bit more about about that, because the desperation itself. It's it's a it's a it's a human reaction. Right?

Jillian O'Malior (27:59.747)

Yeah. Yeah. And, and

I'm a big believer in that there is actually no reason to moralize any of this. We need jobs to survive. Shockingly, not all of us are trust fund babies who can just like live off of someone else's money. We need jobs to survive and not just that we need them to survive, but a lot of us, we get something from working. We get something that fuels our brains, that fuels our soul. We find ways to do something that feels right to us and feels like we're

succeeding and when you're not working and when your whole job is searching for work, which doesn't pay either, so you're in survival mode, there is a desperation that happens. But then what we've done is we have completely moralized it. One of my big things that I've talked about is like, when did we shift the shame of a layoff from the company doing the layoff to the person who's been laid off?

Because I can remember a time when if a company was doing layoffs, that was their desperation. Like, we have to do this to stop from totally shuddering. And we're so sorry. It is a last resort. And it was really a reflection of the company being mismanaged or whatever it might be. And now it's so common. I mean, I won't go into the number of layoffs I've seen.

Joel Cheesman (29:14.119)

you

Joel Cheesman (29:26.885)

Now it's good business.

Jillian O'Malior (29:31.207)

at the companies that I've worked at, but yeah, it's just a way of managing budgets and managing head counts and doing all of this. But we have, you know, we'll sit there and you'll be on a zoom call with your manager and they'll be like, it's not personal. It's business, you know, don't take this personally. It's just what we had to do. But then you go through and you apply and people go, what's that gap? What's that gap in your resume? Why have you been unemployed for so long?

Well, why did you get laid? Why was your job eliminated? How useless a human being are you in the kind of work that you do that why should we hire you? even though no one's obviously saying it to that extreme, that is the underlying current with a lot of interviews, with a lot of this process, because people generally speaking just lack emotional intelligence. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Chad Sowash (30:00.299)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (30:21.615)

I assume it's like that house that that house it's been for sale for a year. People just eventually go, what's wrong with the house? Like something's got to be wrong with it. And it just becomes this like endless cycle of the longer I'm unemployed, the longer I'm unemployed because people feel like there's something wrong with me. I'm curious about the mental health question. There are people listening to this that are unemployed. They don't have a VP level job. They don't have the experience that you have. And they look at you and go,

Jillian O'Malior (30:37.452)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (30:49.285)

My God, if she can't get a job, what hope is there for me? So I'm curious what you and JT, I know you talked to lot of people as well. What kind of message do you give them when they are so frustrated when they get doors shut in their face time and time again? How do you deal with that mentally and what advice would you give others?

Jillian O'Malior (31:10.21)

Yeah, it's, I just tell people full on, like, it is not easy and you have to name that. You have to name how difficult this is. You cannot silver lining your way through something that's not only hard and it's just like rejection after rejection after rejection, but it's also about your survival, your ability to be housed, your ability to be fed.

And part of it is accepting that it's really hard naming that for yourself instead of constantly feeling like you have to stay positive and stay positive. And just acknowledging that even though it's absolutely personal for you because it's about your ability to survive, it isn't personal in the sense that it's a reflection of who you are.

And that can sometimes be hard. I've run into it too. mean, being someone with like the work ethic that I have and the drive that I have being unemployed for 15 months, I have had so many moments where I'm like, girl, what the fuck is wrong with you? Like, what is happening here? What, like, where did you screw up 20 years ago that you got to this point?

Chad Sowash (32:13.925)

yeah.

Jillian O'Malior (32:29.838)

And you do that because you got nothing but time to think about your situation, try and get out of your situation. And I'm a big believer in being vocal helps. You have to vent it out of you. The video that you showed, one of the big things about that was people have to go to LinkedIn when they're looking for work. That's where you network.

Chad Sowash (32:52.492)

Mm-hmm.

Jillian O'Malior (32:53.932)

That's where some of the jobs are, but that's where the recruiters are. so posting content and talking about things and making sure, JT, to your point, making sure you're being seen by the people who can help you get a job. But then you go on and you see these engagement bait hot takes from employed people going like, I don't know, you look really desperate with that green banner, and it's gross. It's like.

I'm sorry that I'm advertising that I need work just like the rest of us. I don't understand why you moralize this. Yeah.

Chad Sowash (33:26.476)

Not to mention the the algorithm has proven that once you click that thing on you actually get you you get more you get more noticed But a to me JT when you hear that and I'm sure that you probably have Individuals that you're talking to that first and foremost one event to you go figure and secondarily They're like, should I use this green banner thing? I've heard things about it. What what what have you heard?

JT ODonnell (33:51.117)

Yeah.

JT ODonnell (33:54.724)

So in full transparency in my own program, right, where we coach people, we advise not to turn on the green banner, but there is an open to work button that turns on the signal that recruiters are allowed to contact you. That's the most important thing, whether you choose the green banner or not, is to choose one of those two options, because that actually is telling the algorithm to include you in recruiter searches. A lot of people don't even know that that's like a fundamental thing. If you don't want to be in recruiter searches, don't turn either of those on.

Chad Sowash (34:02.101)

Okay.

Chad Sowash (34:08.32)

okay.

Joel Cheesman (34:24.795)

And do you advise that because of the desperation factor or is it something else?

JT ODonnell (34:25.335)

The Greek.

JT ODonnell (34:29.485)

Because sadly hiring is discrimination. And when a recruiter has visually a list of 50 candidates on the screen, and they see some with a green banner and some with not, some are absolutely jumping to that green banner first. But for every one recruiter like that, there's arguably one to two that are skipping over because the way they're evaluated on their job is bringing the best match. So when they go to their boss and the boss says, why are you bringing me people who are between jobs?

I'm somebody who wants to hire employed. Again, horrible discrimination. Don't shoot the messenger. But then that's the recruiter just trying to keep their own job. So once again, it's so unfortunate. It's not fair, it's not right, but it is how we advise them. The part of your question that I think is so important, Joel, is the mental health piece of it is how to get out of that. 20 years of doing this, you better believe I've had people come to me 18 months out of work, four years out of work. And the mental thing I have to do is break their patterns.

Chad Sowash (35:01.175)

yeah.

JT ODonnell (35:27.999)

So believe it or not, one of the reasons we put you in and say, okay, here's a seven day jumpstart, 15 minutes a day, is to actually give you easy wins that make you have dopamine hits and start to get you out of that slump. Because the truth is, and I bring this book up every time on this podcast, Alfie Cohn's Punished by Rewards explains how we have all become extrinsically motivated and defined by our jobs in this country. So that is ingrained in us that we feel guilty, we feel bad if we aren't producing.

So if I know that's true, my psychological fix is to have you do something just a little bit each day and have a win and all of a sudden what? You're producing. Fast forward to what we're all talking about now, which is documenting yourself. You just said it. If you really want to be found on LinkedIn, it's not turning that banner on or off. has nothing to do with it. It actually has to do now with their algorithm update where you're posting your industry and skill sets so we can understand who you are. Here's the cool thing about that. When you learn how to do that correctly,

Chad Sowash (35:56.077)

yeah.

JT ODonnell (36:23.363)

You have to start thinking about your craft. You have to start talking about your craft. It fires your brain on all cylinders. I can tell you hands down, my clients will all tell you the reason creating content changed it and they went from unemployed 18, 24 months to landing a job was they got back into talking confidently. They had to create content that created context. So then when they started getting interviews, they weren't fumbling like, my gosh, this is my first interview in 18 months. They're like, heck yeah. I love what I'm talking about in my feed. Now let's talk some more.

Joel Cheesman (36:51.654)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (36:52.311)

and they get the job, right? They're solution-orientated. It's cathartic. Yeah, so I would say to anybody out there that's been out of it for a while, believe it or not, talking about your industry and your skill set, recording the answers to those job interview questions, giving hot takes on what's happening in your industry, that's really gonna help you mentally, and quite frankly, two for the price of one, because it's how recruiters are gonna find you.

Chad Sowash (36:53.324)

Well, plus it's cathartic though too, right? Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (37:13.703)

And I'm curious, to me it's a balance because when I watch Jillian's social media posts, part of me says, wow, how sort of nice it must be to unload that. And I'm sure for every asshole that comments, there's someone that says, yes, I'm going through the same thing. Thanks for saying the quiet part out loud. And part of me as an employer says, red flag, someone that's going to social media talking about these issues.

Jillian O'Malior (37:37.986)

Mm-hmm.

Joel Cheesman (37:42.459)

JT, more for you, guess. What are your thoughts when you see those videos? it a net positive that's happening or is she hurting herself by taking to social media in that way?

JT ODonnell (37:54.234)

The solution is to show your whole self. If you become only the feed that talks about the injustices, then that's your brand. You actually think about, there a way for me to monetize off that? Is that my true passion? If I'm really filling the feed with the things that I know, like Gillian's talking what she knows about employer branding, talent attraction, how AI is factoring into it, and she's really filling that feed with that knowledge, her having the occasional post with how she feels about the job search is providing a more holistic perspective.

a whole view of it. But if it was only kind of the ranting or only that problem, then right, that's the appointment. you know, people hear what they see. That's what is going to be ingested and understood. But to me, if you bring your whole self, it's less of an issue.

Jillian O'Malior (38:38.786)

And that's been, you know, sort of an interesting thing with all this, because I started posting, I did a very specific post on November 3rd where I said, okay, I have played the game the right way for a year now, because I was just about at a year unemployed. And I said, so now we're going to shift and we're going to talk about.

Chad Sowash (38:55.532)

Mm.

Jillian O'Malior (38:59.958)

what this is really like. We're going to talk about it from the standpoint of someone who has been working in recruitment marketing, employer brand, talent traction for a while now and understands the other side of it. And I have gotten, you know, because I'm very honest, I curse a lot because that's just who I am.

I do a lot of very niche pop culture references, but I've had a lot of people reach out and they're like, you are making yourself unhireable. You are completely making yourself unhireable. Nobody wants to hire someone like this. And I've done a couple of things with that. said, one, what I've done is I've created a massive filter. If this makes you uncomfortable, someone who, you know, I'm not being mean, I'm not.

being aggressive, but I am speaking very honestly about like, hey, this doesn't work. You're damaging your brand with the way that things are operating right now. If that doesn't work for a company, that's not a company I'm going to fit with anyway, because this is how I, mean, ask anybody who worked with me at Recruits, it's like, yeah, that's just what she's like. That's how I show up.

Joel Cheesman (40:03.537)

Yeah.

Chad Sowash (40:03.617)

Yes.

Jillian O'Malior (40:15.028)

in the workplace, which is I'm going to be really honest. I'm going to talk about things that need to be talked about, and I'm not going to be too shy about doing that. But the other thing is that, and I'm going to be releasing this soon, this has also been like a 90-day study of what happened.

Because I'm into brand, and that's what I do. What happens when you develop a brand that is very rooted in honesty, that is very rooted in not being performative, but being clear on who you are and what you want, and what does the performance of that look like? And it's pretty remarkable what that can look like within 90 days with no dollars behind it, nothing other than just like, pure, this is my brand.

Joel Cheesman (40:39.259)

Mm-hmm.

Jillian O'Malior (41:05.486)

These are the stories I'm telling. Everything I do needs to align with this story that I'm trying to tell. And what does that look like?

Joel Cheesman (41:12.743)

Can you give us a little taste of what we can expect from that?

Jillian O'Malior (41:15.138)

Yeah. So basically, I built a brand for myself that was very centered on who I am, but well-defined. And what it looked like was with, like I said, with no dollars behind it. It's all pure organic, 2.8 million impressions across two platforms.

Chad Sowash (41:16.19)

yeah.

Jillian O'Malior (41:44.378)

120,000 engagements and like comments, likes, shares, all kinds of stuff. And then I think it was, I have to go back and look, but it was like increasing my followers by like 600 % or something like that in 30 days or in 90 days.

Chad Sowash (42:01.782)

Yeah, well, and that's what LinkedIn wants. So we just talked about it on last week's show is that remember when everybody's like, that doesn't belong on LinkedIn. I was always the guy who was like, fuck you. This is my profile. I'll post what I want to post, like it or not. Right. And we've moved more toward we need transparency and we're asking that of employers. They're being much slower than we are, obviously. And I remember when Joel and I first started talking about

JT ODonnell (42:04.574)

Mm-hmm.

Jillian O'Malior (42:10.06)

Mm-hmm.

Chad Sowash (42:28.042)

people who are getting fired on TikTok and they were they were actually recording it on TikTok and how that would impact them later on down the road. And from my standpoint, it's like this is just an evolutionary point of transparency for the person and the company. And I think we're going deeper down that rabbit hole. And for me, I think that's great.

Jillian O'Malior (42:52.034)

Yeah, I mean bad behavior thrives in silence, right? That's what bad behavior needs. They need people to comply and to be quiet and to just put their heads down and take it. And you know, I'm big on like,

I talk about this a lot. I'm not a cancel culture person. I don't believe in that. But I do believe in accountability. I do believe in if you're doing something that is ultimately harming your brand. ran into this. On LinkedIn, I had a recruiter reach out to me. And they just hit me with, I'm hiring for a role and then just like a litany of questions about my experience. And I went, hi, nice to meet you.

what company and what is the role? Like, can I see a job description? And they basically were like, I'll ask the questions here. What is your experience? And I went, yes, and I kind of said to them, was like, so for context, there are a lot of scammers on this platform who are just data mining. So again, where do you work?

Chad Sowash (43:49.92)

VIVAL ASK THE QUESTIONS!

Joel Cheesman (43:51.399)

you

JT ODonnell (43:51.862)

Mm-hmm.

Jillian O'Malior (44:03.87)

What is the role? Because I will know better to start with if it's even in my lane and then we can have a conversation about the more specific experience that you're looking for. And then he came back with, well, you know what? Best of luck to you. This is why you're unemployed. You're a problem, blah, blah. I was like, asking questions is, yeah. And then it turned into, I mean, he just crashed out on me.

Joel Cheesman (44:20.988)

you

Chad Sowash (44:25.1)

That's a sweetheart.

Jillian O'Malior (44:31.79)

to use the terms of the younger generation. And he said, I know a lot of recruiters, I'll get you blacklisted, no one will hire you. And so I went, okay, great, I'm gonna take the screenshots of this private conversation because I figured out where he worked. And he said, and I'm gonna post them because you're a recruiter, you are responsible for most people's first introduction to your company's brand, and you have just damaged it.

Joel Cheesman (44:40.977)

jeez.

Jillian O'Malior (45:01.974)

And so I'm going to make,

Chad Sowash (45:02.216)

Send that shit to us.

Joel Cheesman (45:04.743)

I just can't believe that ZipRecruiter has failed her. I just can't believe that ZipRecruiter hasn't been there for you. JT, I'm gonna let you get the final word.

Chad Sowash (45:09.494)

Yeah.

Jillian O'Malior (45:09.71)

HAHAHA

JT ODonnell (45:17.653)

my gosh, no, I just think hurt people like to hurt people. so recruiters are reeling right now, right? Clearly, so when you see a recruiter go postal like that, sorry postal service, it just means that that person knows their job's in trouble too, right? And it's so easy to take it out on you. And that just tells you right there, the state of the union, about how messed up this whole system is right now.

Jillian O'Malior (45:22.573)

Mm-hmm.

JT ODonnell (45:47.203)

Hopefully people were able to learn a lot today and just focus on the activities that'll get them visible and get them talking to people, that sort of thing. yeah, just don't keep doing it the way you've been doing it.

Joel Cheesman (45:58.641)

Right on, well that was Jillian, O'Malior everybody. Jillian, for those that want to connect with you, maybe hire you, learn more about your skills, where do you send them?

Jillian O'Malior (46:09.324)

Yeah. So you can find me on LinkedIn at Jillian O'Malior, which is O-M-A-L-I-O-R. It's a weird last name. And then I also, I do a lot of employer branding, culture change consultancy, which you can find at jilliendosbranding.com.

Joel Cheesman (46:28.743)

Chad, JT, everybody hurts. That's another one in the can. We out.

Jillian O'Malior (46:33.131)

You

Chad Sowash (46:34.189)

We out. But they don't have to. They don't have to hurt. Stop it.

JT ODonnell (46:35.085)

We out.

Jillian O'Malior (46:40.015)

Bye!