Google Jobs Antitrust


Adzuna CEO and Founder Doug Monro have a thing or two to say about Google's anti-competitive practices, particularly around job search. He's even joined his fellow European industry heads in an official complaint against Big G, so deciding whether or not to have him on the podcast was a no-brainer.


In addition to search, Doug has a lot to say about programmatic advertising, fraudulent job postings, problems with your ATS of choice, and XML feeds (boy, does he have something to say about XML feeds!).


Enjoy the Sovren powered pod!


PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by:

Disability Solutions helps forward thinking employers create world class hiring and retention programs for people with disabilities.

Doug (0s):

I think the argument that everything Google is doing is, is just to make the consumer experience better is pretty weak. And it doesn't make them. I mean, if they, if they are, they've not done a very good job of it.


INTRO (10s):

Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.


Joel (30s):

Oh yeah. The British are coming. The British are coming. What's up everybody? This is Joel Cheeseman of the Chad and Cheese podcast joined as always by the King of quiona Chad Sowash and today we're joined honored to have founder CEO of Adzuna on the show, Doug Monro. Cheerio, top of the morning to you, whatever you guys say over there. What's up?


Doug (56s):

Hi guys. It's great to be on the show. I'm a big fan.


Joel (59s):

Full disclosure Adzuna is a sponsor of beer drop, which we love you.


Chad (1m 5s):

And our fans are big fans.


Joel (1m 7s):

Your employees are big fans. Cause I think they're getting beer too. But anyway, we appreciate, we appreciate it even though our livers hate it, Doug. For those who don't know what is Adzuna real quick, give us a Twitter description.


Doug (1m 20s):

Yeah, sure. So Adzuna is a search engine for jobs, we bring together every job in the world in one place, or at least in 16 countries, we operate in US, UK and many others and add great useful tools with data and search to help job seekers zero in on their perfect role.


Joel (1m 37s):

Founded in 2011?


Doug (1m 40s):

2011. So nine years ago. Yeah, in the UK, we expanded over the next couple years to enter into Europe and Australia and Russia. And then we've been in the US and North America for about three years and growing really quickly there.


Joel (1m 52s):

Excellent.


Chad (1m 52s):

Awesome. Awesome. Well, tell us about, tell us about 2020. Smacked us around, but we've seen some companies rallied and then into 2021, which seems to be hijacked by 2020 to be quite Frank, how did COVID start to impact the business and what have you seen since then?


Doug (2m 11s):

Yeah, I mean, it was a crazy year for everyone and I guess, you know, first thoughts with everyone who's been ill or suffered or lost their job in the pandemic, my brother's a doctor in an emergency room, so he's had a fun year. In the UK and we've got the special, extra mutant variant over here.


Chad (2m 32s):

Thanks for that.


Joel (2m 33s):

Thanks for that.


Doug (2m 37s):

So 2020 was a hard year for our business as well. And in April we dropped about half the business from where we'd been on a really nice trajectory prior to that, you know, and it was hard times we cut some costs, but made the tough decision to keep the whole team on and focus and double down on improving our technology and improving our experience for job seekers and to help people who we knew were going to need our service. And every single month, since from April through to November, we grew back and by the last quarter of the year, we were above where we started. So it turned out to be a good decision, lot of hard work by the team.


Joel (3m 14s):

Real quick. When you say 50%, are we talking 50% decrease in job postings, customer's, head count? What are we talking about?


Doug (3m 21s):

50% decrease in inventory. So jobs and in our revenue. And pretty much overnight, within a couple of weeks.


Joel (3m 29s):

Wow.


Doug (3m 29s):

So that was a shocker. I'm sure that was the same for many other businesses and some had it worse and some had it better. What we were, and we track the vacancy levels all the way through that and publish a lot of PR and data around that. And they're back, much closer to where they were even now, even with craziness in the last month or two. Which is great to see, and our businesses reflected that and done better than that. So we're up above where we were. That's required a lot of adaptation, we had to change a product focus around remote jobs or the categories that have done well, like healthcare and logistics. We've also been able to use the fact that we're in many countries to, you know, to adapt. So some, you know, some countries have been hit harder than others.


Chad (4m 7s):

Right.


Doug (4m 7s):

And not always exactly the job market has been hit exactly as you might think from looking at COVID cases.


Joel (4m 14s):

Say more about the global predicament, are there countries that are significantly down? Is the US a real, real screwed up case? Like what globally? Talk more about that.


Doug (4m 24s):

So I actually have all our markets, the UK was the hardest hit. I think that was a combination of being a services economy and also the way that governments reacted. So the British government introduced a very generous furlough scheme, which basically said, "Hey, everybody don't work for nine months and we'll pay you." So that, that doesn't really encourage hiring because everyone's frozen in place. I think the US we saw a much, a big drop as well, but a faster recovery than we saw in the UK, because amongst other reasons, I think a stimulus package was kind of designed to keep business going rather than freeze it, or to encourage people to go out and spend the money that the government sending them.


Chad (5m 3s):

Not much of that.


Doug (5m 5s):

This debate about more of it coming or not, I think. Yeah. And then other markets were all over the place. I mean, Italy was hit very, very hard early on, which you'd expect. Germany held up much better because it had very few cases for a long time, although the last few months, I think had been a bit harder in Germany. France has been very up and down for us different market and Australia is pretty solid. Pretty good now. I mean, they've hardly got any cases of COVID at all. And we're in Australia and New Zealand as well, which feel like they've almost come out the other side of the pandemic now.


Chad (5m 33s):

So, yeah, discipline.


Doug (5m 34s):

So it's been a real mix. And every month we've had to shift our resource Chad, you know, team members shift between working at one market and another, and I'm focused on sales teams and so on. And we have quite a lot of multi-country business too. So, you know, someone in our US team might sell a campaign in Europe or vice versa. So that, that also helps.


Chad (5m 54s):

So now have you always been a full remote team? So this wasn't a hard change for you, or was it a hard pivot? It seems like from a business standpoint and being able to stay nimble, as you were just talking about switching resources from country to country or industry to industry, whatever it was, you were pretty nimble there. How, how easy was that for you and was it because you were already remote beforehand? Or why was it, why was it so easy?


Doug (6m 20s):

So before the pandemic, we were about 40% remote, or at least out of our London office. So we're sort of 60% London office teams in the US and Australia. And then most of our tech team remote, who are literally worked from home and a whole bunch of different countries, the biggest one Greece, but lots of others. So we were already set up for it. I mean our third employee was a remote employee on the tech side. So we've done it for nine years as a business managed multi-country multi time zone, you know, remote work. It was still a big shock, and it's not everyone working remotely because they've decided that will be fun.


Doug (7m 0s):

It's everyone working remotely, right because of the pandemic and, you know, you might, you're locked in your house because you're not allowed to go out. And, you know, I'm lucky I'm 20 years into my career and I have a house with a couple of bedrooms and a bit of space, but you know, some of our team members in London live in really small, you know, shared accommodation where they're working out of their own bedroom, you know, so it's been a really tough few months for a lot of people. And I think one of the things we did really well, as well as being nimble as a business was frankly just supporting our employees, you know, helping make sure they had everything they needed at home, putting in place wellness support and things like that. And just being flexible about time off and support and all those kinds of things. So I think a bit of empathy and a bit of leadership goes a long way in those situations.


Chad (7m 45s):

It creates trust and loyalty long-term, does it not? I mean, and are you seeing companies in Europe or in the UK really focusing around that treatment of their employees? Or do you think you guys are, are kind of like a upper-crust when it comes to it?


Doug (8m 2s):

I think we've done a good job. I don't wanna blow my own trumpet on it. You know, it's like, I think we, I think we've done our best, given a very difficult situation to support our teams. Loyalty is an interesting one too. I think it definitely inspires loyalty. We've seen some funny effects as well, though, with the pandemic, for example. Our tech folks who were remote already are getting more job offers from more places than they ever did before, because all these other companies have figured out how to do things remotely and now suddenly our guys have been doing it for five years and are really good at getting, you know, recruiters funding up and offering them jobs. Also realizing that, you know, Greece is a little bit less expensive than San Francisco as well. So that's challenge that we have to deal with.


Chad (8m 41s):

Oh yeah.


Joel (8m 42s):

You mentioned numbers going down. I'm curious about traffic. Cause there's the other side of that, right. As more people are unemployed, you see more traffic. So I'm just curious about the sources of traffic. What did I assume your traffic up, but to what degree, what are some of the main sources of traffic that you guys get? I assume as a 10 year old company, you know, organic traffic is obviously a big driver for you, but what are some of the things that you're using to get to get eyeballs?


Doug (9m 9s):

Yeah, so we were really lucky as a business that we've been able to build a pretty diversified traffic base. So we have good SEO and organic traffic. And we'll talk about Google in a minute, I'm sure. We obviously focus a lot on emails and CRM and retention with users. We do a lot of PR and that generates a certain amount of brand traffic and organic traffic, but we also buy through Google and Facebook and other platforms like that and work with affiliate partners as well as others do in the industry. So we've always tried to be not too dependent on any one traffic sources of business. And I think that's really important because you become a one trick pony and something goes wrong with that. Google changes their algorithm or whatever whole business is kind of stopped.


Doug (9m 51s):

It also allows us as programmatics come into the industry and that's something we focused on and to really understand where the best traffic sources for different companies and advertisers are, you know, making sure that we can push a campaign harder on particular traffic sources that convert well for one client and or one industry, and then look at in different candidate pools for other ones. And that's really important for optimizing for those programmatic campaigns as well.


Joel (10m 17s):

And then obviously beer drop with Chad and Cheese has been a windfall traffic.


Doug (10m 23s):

78% of job seekers on Adzuna mentioned beer drop as their primary source.


Chad (10m 31s):

Oh, okay, Doug, so you mentioned Google, and obviously we wanted to talk to you about this because there's a very long list of job sites in the EU who says that Google for Jobs is unfairly favoring its own service. Can you give us some background about this, this came out, I believe in 2019 and it's, I mean, there've been more and more job sites gaining, I guess the, the list by the day, give us some insights, if you would?


Doug (11m 3s):

Yeah, of course. So Google for Jobs has been around for a few years. I think the original set up included their ATS product, Google Hire and, and even a sort of certain embedded search product that they wanted to sell to job boards. And those have sort of fallen by the wayside, but Google for Jobs continues to be a thing.


Joel (11m 24s):

Is the API gone? That's still around. Right?


Doug (11m 26s):

I think it still exists. I don't know how many people use it. And Google for Jobs is a big box at the top of the page that directs you away from the thing that you were searching for to a bunch of jobs that are sort of hosted on Google's platform. And then you kind of look through those and then you can click off and apply somewhere else. Sometimes there are seven buttons on a job, right. To try and choose where you want to apply. I'm not sure how you choose. So what does that actually do for industry? It kind of diverts traffic away from organic search or from Google ad words searches and into this slightly different part of kind of organic traffic and keeps users on Google's platform for longer.


Doug (12m 7s):

At the moment they don't monetize it and so I think it, in that sense, it's has a relatively small impact on the industry or we can get into this but I think my, my concern is where do they go next with it?


Chad (12m 18s):

And that's a good question, but I mean, let's take, let's take a look when this first came out in 2019, Google Hire was a thing, the Jobs API was something else that they were pushing. So back then I, you could see there was a, there was really a lot of effort put into and resources put into this specific arena. Now that those have fallen away, it has this whole endeavor really lost some gaps.


Doug (12m 47s):

Yeah, I don't think so. I mean, I, so I'm not the leader of this effort at all. I was approached by a couple of German websites that were putting this complaint together.


Chad (12m 58s):

Imagine that you talk about putting a wall around your country when it comes to job search Germany does a damn good job of that.


Doug (13m 5s):

Yeah. I mean, do it, you know, and, and Germany, Germany in general is a country with very strong views about privacy and competition. I think the media with there have been, you know, fighting Google for 20 years around Google news. So I wasn't surprised at all to see that, but I don't think it is the Germans doing something strange here. I think the complaint is a very reasonable complaint. So the fundamental of the complaint that they, and that's why I signed it, the fundamentals of the complaint that they are bringing is self preferencing, right? So it's Google giving priority to Google's own services that compete with other people. So the Yelp situation in the U S the Google shopping precedent in Europe, where Google was fined 5 billion euros, I believe for basically preferencing Google shopping listings over people like Kelkoo and other others that, that brought that complaint.


Doug (14m 1s):

And, and those complaints were great, but they were too late. Those businesses had been destroyed by the time a Google, you know, someone brought a legal complaint and Google got fined, right? They destroyed that whole industry. Those companies are out of business. In fact, the only thing that they all have left is a lawsuit against Google. So I think what I think there's a fair complaint, which is self preferencing. You know, you're a massive monopoly. Everyone uses Google for search and, you know, you're now leveraging that monopoly into jobs and other services. And you're just going to carve the people out of the whole industry. That's classic monopoly behavior. And I think that the reason I signed it, as I think bringing these complaints, whether it be in the EU or in the US, is what's going to moderate their behavior.


Doug (14m 44s):

I don't think Google is going to take away Google for jobs, because someone brings a complaint and writes a letter. But I think if nobody brings a complaint and writes a letter, then they'll monetizing.


Chad (14m 52s):

Right.


Doug (14m 52s):

Then they'll stop adding hired, than they'll take, add, trying to use that monopolies to take the whole industry.


Joel (14m 59s):

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Joel (16m 3s):

It's Showtime. So Doug playing devil's advocate for a second because that's what we do on the show. So I could push back and maybe someone from the other side would say, look, you know, job seekers are what we should focus on here. And that's probably what Google is focusing on. And from their data they've learned over the last 10, 20 years that, you know, vendors sort of behave badly when it comes to job search. And you're clicking around in multiple job sites and job seekers are confused and basically the results that people get aren't very good. So trust in Google was dropping because of sort of the other side of what the vendors were doing with crossposting jobs and sort of playing this, this whack-a-mole of where do I apply?


Joel (16m 46s):

And so, so Google was almost forced by the vendor side to create a, to create a search component that basically policed. Okay. Where are you applying from? And who's posting jobs, and then let's letr the job seeker decide, okay. Do I want to apply at Adzuna? Do I want to apply through LinkedIn? Do I want to apply through the corporate website? And then the second part of my devil's advocate would be isn't this largely based on vendor fear, because job seeker behavior is going to eventually go toward people understanding well, if I go to a job board, I'm probably going to have to go to the company's ATS anyway, because that's where companies want me to go.


Joel (17m 28s):

So I'm eventually going to go to Google and find out, okay, apply through the company website. And I'm just going to go to the company website. And that drives up traffic from you guys. So it's a business saving effort to get Google out of the picture. Am I right on that? Or am I off base?


Doug (17m 44s):

We at Adzuna, are trying to build a great experience for the job seeker to help them get into work, to help those companies that are struggling to find the right people. And we're trying to make a buck or two along the way. Right? So both of those things, you know, both of those points apply to our business as well. I think on the consumer side, I don't buy it. I mean, I think it's a very disingenuous argument from Google to say, we're the consumer champion. We're doing this to make the consumer experience better. I mean, I've tried to use Google for jobs and it's not great. Those search interfaces in gray, I get the same ad from lots of different places. It takes me even more clicks to find an apply than it does on aggregator like Adzuna or another one.


Doug (18m 26s):

I still get redirected to eight different places. I still have bad quality content in there. And, and frankly, if you search on Google for the word Adzuna right, that's our brand and exists before I started my company, this big Google for jobs box that doesn't have Adzuna jobs in it comes up. Right? So I think the argument that everything Google is doing is, is just to make the consumer experience better is pretty weak. And it doesn't make them, I mean, if they, if they are, they've not done a very good job of it. So yes, that is the PR line they put out, this is a decision. It's a business decision that Google, you know, is growing at less than 5% a year on search query volume. They've everyone in the world is already using Google.


Doug (19m 7s):

It's hard to acquire new people. So if you have to do, if you want to do what your shareholders are asking for, which is grow Google's business at 30, 40, 50% a year, you gotta get more money out of every query. And one of the ways you do that is you keep people on Google when they would otherwise link out somewhere and ultimately monetize that traffic while it's on Google more heavily. So I, you know, I, that's the reason Google brought in Google for jobs and that's their motivation going forward for developing the service, in my opinion.


2 (19m 35s):

Yeah. And now on the second part was the fear of training job seekers. They could go to Google to find the job directly on the corporate career site, much easier. And all the context to that, you know, we've talked, we're, we're close with iCIMS and I've talked to Colin Day, you know, their founder quite a few times. And they've been really open around the amount of traffic that job boards and sites are losing in light of Google for Jobs. So it does seem like lack of traffic is an issue with Google for Jobs and vendors.


Doug (20m 3s):

So, so for us, we haven't seen that. I mean, we're growing as a business and it's hard to know where you're benchmarking against, but we are, our life got a bit more complicated because we now have to do Google organic and Google for Jobs rather than one. Yeah. So for the probably same amount of traffic, we have to do more work, but that's okay. We can handle that. But the, you know, we haven't seen it as a big drop-off in traffic. No, nor a massive gain in traffic. I mean, it, hasn't, it's been pretty neutral for our business candidates do want to apply to the job. They don't want to work with seven intermediaries to get there, right? That's not a good experience, you know, we're doing that with our own business. We started working a lot with job boards and over time we've worked increasingly with employers and ATS is to get much closer to the source of the content.


Doug (20m 48s):

And a lot of those now, actually one Adzuna to host the apply, you know, not for us to click out to their career site users. Don't like that click out and being redirected. I think you mentioned this Joel, on your previous talk about the Google for Jobs situation, but the employer websites are not always the best candidate experience websites, especially on mobile devices. They vary a lot, but even where they're good, there's still that slightly jarring click out. So I think the argument that you want to go to Google go direct to the employer website, especially for employers that don't have big brand names and Google doesn't offer that apply.


Doug (21m 29s):

So they still have that sort of jarring link. I'm not sure Google is making anything better from a vendor point of view. Sure. We would not be keen on a world where everyone went to Google and that's the only place they applied for a job. And they only went directly to the company website. And there were no other vendors in the whole market. Sure. That wouldn't be good for our business. But I think, you know, we're helping employers to get in front of the right candidates and optimize their campaigns and ultimately hire the right people that they want in their organizations. And they need some help, They're not just, Hey, I've put up a website and Google fill me with candidates. I think that would cause a lot of problems for any number of vendors to handle.


Joel (22m 7s):

Fair enough.


Chad (22m 8s):

I totally agree. There's user experience for Google for jobs is shit is horrible. But I do see the, the, the choice, right? The buttons choice, which again, the whole user experience is just crazy. Now before Google for Jobs though, Indeed virtually owned the organic, right? So now doesn't Google for Jobs, give this smaller job sites, these, these job sites that are actually listed, does it give them more of a fair shake instead of before, when they were losing organic search to Indeed because Google was favoring them?


Doug (22m 44s):

I think in the short term, for some of them who are quite, you know, entrepreneurial, like Cando I just, just like SEO, Google for Jobs creates a little bit of a game as well. You know, like what can I do with my content to be the first guy that's listed for Google for Jobs? And I'm getting the most indexed and so on. And for some players that that will give a benefit. And for some, it will be a reduction. But I think that I think where the hundred and thirty-five signatories of this letter and not, not all end jobs, I agree and are a little bit more farsighted is, is what are these guys going to do next? So when is Google going to start monetizing Google for jobs? I think it was on one of your predictions for last year or this year. And what does that look like and how does that impact your business?


Doug (23m 26s):

Yeah.


Chad (23m 26s):

Joel just keeps using that as a rolling prediction until it happens. I appreciate the now 135 different organizations are actually applying pressure to Google so that they know they can't do what they've done in the past. But also on the other side is this helping is Google actually pressing organizations like yours and like, you know, your peer organizations to do a better job on the user experience. They are saying that they're trying to create a better user experience. That's why Google for Jobs exists. Has that helped in our industry at all? Or have we just pretty much just stayed status quo and we still have, for all intents and purposes, the same user experience.


Doug (24m 13s):

I don't see the Google for Jobs has had a positive impact on user experience. Overall. I think they're pretty strict about what their feed requirements are, but I don't see those as enforcing a better, better practices in the industry. I probably seen more impact from working with the likes of at-cost to improve industry standards than I have from Google in terms of us as a partnership. So, no, I don't think they're having a big impact. And I think there are, I've seen affiliate sites spring out that I didn't know existed that suddenly have a million jobs on Google for Jobs as well. So I think they're creating new opportunities for people to scrape content and push it into Google for Jobs that aren't great for candidates.


Doug (24m 55s):

So yeah. Talk about that because I think, and I'll come back on onto your side of the things here real quick as well, cause I'm balanced like that. So we're hearing a lot about, and not just jobs flooding, you know, into Google for Jobs, but also sort of fraudulent stuff. You know, the things that existed on Google, you know, 20 years ago by gaming, you know, SEO and driving people to, you know, NASCAR sites with tons of banners and you got to give us your social security number and things like that. That seems to be infiltrating Google for Jobs. Is that your perspective talk about not just the flood of new sites, but also the risk to consumers and in going into fraudulent sites that are asking for a lot of information, what are you seeing there?


Doug (25m 42s):

Yeah, I mean that, that is a risk and has always been a risk in the industry. There's everything from, you know, fraudulent lead generation businesses to people that I ran a business called Gumtree, the sort of Craigslist of Europe 15 years ago. And we had terrible problems with people putting out fake job ads and getting people to give them their bank details and stealing their money. And that's still around, you know, 15 years later. So there are challenges in our industry and I think the responsible players and I would include ourselves within that, what really hard to clean out that content and, you know, QA and keep all of that bad stuff away and lots of different ways. I think when you're Google your operating a relatively open platform, they want to be seen to be taking jobs from everyone.


Doug (26m 26s):

And all of those people are sending huge numbers of jobs and yeah, it's very, very high and this isn't monetized at the moment and it isn't even necessarily the only, you know, your main focus as a business, you've got enough verticals to worry about as well enough of the geographies. It's pretty hard to make sure that you know exactly what's going on on the end of that next click and the click beyond that. So I think it's very hard for Google to police that and the relative risk reward for them, isn't it? You know, I think it's very difficult. So that could be something that ends up actually hitting them like it did with Facebook and discrimination related complaints in this area.


Doug (27m 9s):

But it is an opportunity for, you know, anything from someone's scraping the Adzuna website to get all of the job listings on there, then doing some text churning on them and then pushing them into Google for Jobs. That's a relatively easy and horrible thing to do.


Chad (27m 24s):

Let's go ahead and wrap all this up with Doug's. What do you call them? Bugaboos? What are they?


Joel (27m 31s):

Bugger rugs. Bugbears? What was it?


Doug (27m 33s):

Yes. Bugbears.


Joel (27m 36s):

I love learning English as an American.


Chad (27m 38s):

Yes, yes. Doug's bugbear. So the first one we're going to talk about is you mentioned programmatic and we've seen a huge uptick in just the word programmatic and most people don't even know what the hell it means. I mean, and there is probably a very broad definition to this word in the first place and these processes in the first place. What's your, what's your bug bear about this?


Joel (28m 2s):

IDK what it is, but I gotta have it. I got it.


Doug (28m 4s):

Yeah. It's great to be educating you guys on British English. You'll have to teach me some American English along the way. Like I said, programmatic, for me, the recruitment industry talks about programmatic and we're not truly programmatic yet today. Truly programmatic in my mind is what happens in display advertising. You bid in real time, on a user, on that session, on that click, on that website. And what we're calling programmatic today is changing your beds once an hour, across a whole bunch of inventory that is then valid for 24 hours. And, and, you know, we're talking about optimization of campaigns and we're on a journey from pay and prey on Monster 20 years ago to something truly programmatic.


Doug (28m 52s):

And, and I would say at dinner and, and the many agencies we work with are making great progress on that journey, but we're not truly programmatic. And if we want to say that we are, then we need to, you know, start, start taking that to the next level, exchanging data faster, truly thinking about how you do things in real time, which I think leads me to bugbear number two.


Joel (29m 11s):

Yes. Yeah. I would not have predicted this, this bug bear. XML feeds. You've got it out for XML feeds.


Doug (29m 18s):

XML feeds need to die. XML feeds. I like the 1980s technology for like lending information. We as a business and all of our partners and all of our customers are exchanging these enormous 50 gigabyte files of lines and lines of text information. 99% is the same as yesterday. And it's, you know, like Amazon, are making a lot of money out of us or Google cloud or all of those hosting providers, but it's not the way to get to truly programmatic technologies to give job seekers up to date information that's not expired to make sure that we deliver really effectively for campaigns.


Doug (29m 59s):

So we're trying to build API as ads, you know, but we need the rest of the industry to do it too. So I thought today was a great opportunity to shout about that bug bear. So I, I think we'll still be trying to exchange data in real time, trying to offer APIs for jobs, trying to think about the new and the deletions, not just replacing this enormous bowl cup day, every time and trying to, you know, and that requires multiple people to work on things together. Not just me to say, Hey, we're changing.


Chad (30m 30s):

And you have to get either an intermediary or the applicant tracking systems to start using bi-directional APIs. Right. And to be able to get some of these monolithic legacy platforms like ATSs to do something like that is nearly impossible. So what I'm hearing is there's actually an opportunity to be able to play that layer of a bi-directional API for somebody who wants to do a shit ton of work.


Doug (31m 1s):

I think that's right. And there are some folks doing some work around that. Like Alex Murphy, business is doing some stuff in that area. I think they were are ATSs that are modern and forward-thinking and ready to do this, we are integrating with some of them with API, so it can be done.


Joel (31m 15s):

Do you want to name names?


Doug (31m 16s):

I don't have the list of names right in front of me.


Joel (31m 21s):

Fair enough.


Doug (31m 22s):

I do think the industry is getting there and I think there is a perception I've seen at conferences and when talking to other CEOs that, that this needs to change and as an appetite. So it's, it's just taking a few steps towards that.


Joel (31m 34s):

The Brits are so polite, aren't they? Jesus Christ, Doug Monro, everybody. Doug, thanks for coming on the show, man. We appreciate it. For those of our listeners cause they don't hear enough about Adzuna on the show. Where would you send them to learn more?


Doug (31m 47s):

So visit adzuna.com and you'll be able to click on a link for employers or hires. If you want to find out bit more or speak to the lovely Mark Anderson our ahead of US.


Chad (31m 59s):

Nobody's ever said that before. Lovely Mark Anderson.


Joel (32m 4s):

Chad, another one in the books. We out.


Chad (32m 8s):

We out.


Doug (32m 8s):

Good night guys!


OUTRO (32m 9s):

I'm Rory from Scotland, the country, which brought you electricity! Thank you for listening to podcasts with Chad and Cheese. Brilliant! They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Nada Niente. Anyhoo, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. We out.

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