Remember your favorite double album (for those old enough)? That’s what this episode is like.
The boys drop news and discuss BIG TOPICS like...
...and well, TikTok (again :)
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by:
Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.
Oh yeah. I'm back after missing last week show baby Richard Branson went to space and I went to Kentucky. What's up boys and girls. It's your favorite podcast AKA the Chad and Cheese podcast. This is your co-host Joel "rocketman" Cheeseman.
This is Chad "Italia" Sowash
And on this week show Google for Jobs isn't playing anymore y'all. LinkedIn keeps getting played and who wants to play a game of M and A? Just about everyone apparently.
You already know that Sovren makes the world's best resume CV parser, but did you know that Sovren also makes the world's best AI matching engine? Only Sovren's AI matching engine goes beyond the buzzwords. With Sovren you control how the engine thinks with every match the Sovren engine tells you what matched and exactly how each matching document was scored. And if you don't agree with the way it's scored the matches, you can simply move some sliders to tell it, to score the matches your way. No other engine on earth gives you that combination of insight and control. With Sovren, matching isn't some frustrating "black box, trust us, it's magic, one shot deal"
Sovren (1m 39s):
like all the others. No, with Sovren, matching is completely understandable, completely controllable, and actually kind of fun. Sovren ~ software so human you'll want to take it to dinner.
Joel (1m 54s):
Did you miss me, man?
Chad (1m 55s):
Yeah, I did think about it as you buy the campfire with s'mores and the kids and mosquito repellent. Yeah, no, I was, I was envious. I was really envious!
Joel (2m 7s):
You were envious. Well, anytime you want to take my place, you're more than welcome. I enjoy about 15% of camping. And it's usually between the hours of like six and nine, when it is the campfire, it is, you know, whatever you're eating, it's drinking, it's cooling down, but yeah, it's sleeping on the ground. Nobody sleeps. Everybody's grumpy. It's hot as shit and Kentucky this time of year, by the way. Anyway.
Chad (2m 36s):
Well welcome back.
Joel (2m 38s):
It's good to be back in the comforts of air conditioning and you know, civilization. Nice to be back.
Chad (2m 47s):
Well, I got to give a shout out to Julie for stepping up last minute, last week. And filling in, she did a great job. She's a podcaster, so she kind of does this thing.
Joel (2m 59s):
Glad she could fill in while I was scratching my mosquito bites. Shout out from me to Richard Branson. I'm sure you saw this in the news, billionaires going in space, something we did 55, 60 years ago, but now it's celebrated because rich people are doing it. Shout out to him. And I can't wait to shout out to Jeff Bezos when he does it. Let's hope that he doesn't die in a horrible accident coming back to earth cause that would break your heart
Chad (3m 27s):
In his giant penis machine. Yes, I can see that.
Joel (3m 31s):
Yeah. Why don't these guys just sword fight with their cocks and get it over with? Like put the money to, I don't know global warming, hunger.
Chad (3m 41s):
Joel (3m 42s):
Don't spend it going into space.
Chad (3m 44s):
Well, and Richard Branson doing the whole, oh, as a kid and I wish everybody and it's like, motherfucker, you just wanted to spend your money on this ride. It's what you wanted to do. Just say it. You didn't want to spend it on world hunger. You didn't want to spend it on anything with regard to making lives better. I mean, you just wanted to take the ride. That's what you want to just fucking say it, dude. Come on.
Joel (4m 10s):
Yeah. And the fact that he moved it up to go before Bezos really kind of tells you right here. This whole thing is, it's like the mother load of midlife crises with these guys.
Chad (4m 22s):
But we do have some winners though. Kids, the UIFA Euro 2020, and Joel and I, we both picked England. Like I said, my heart was with Italy. I wanted Italy to win, but I thought England had the easiest route in their easiest group. They're on the easiest side of the bracket. After beating Germany, they really had an easy way all the way into the finals. And yet Italy after beating Belgium and really getting smacked around, you know, a little bit, they played a match, dude. It was pretty cool.
Joel (4m 53s):
Yeah. I'm going to save a lot of my commentary for our European show. So kids make sure you go check that out. But I, you know, by the numbers Italy should have won easily. Damn what a choke job by England. Yeah. And while we're on sports, can we come back to America for a second? So I think it's 13 days before training camp for the real football happens. I'm excited for that. And the NBA finals are all tied up as we record this podcast.
Chad (5m 20s):
And more winners, we've got a Rocket Mat out of Brazil. 1.5 million in funding. Barb Francillo. Is that how you say it Francillo?
Joel (5m 31s):
I don't know.
Chad (5m 31s):
Okay. She won beer
Joel (5m 33s):
from Adzuna I think.
Chad (5m 35s):
She won beer from AdZuna so, she's loving her life right now with a fucking big stack of beer that was dropped on her front door and Rob Art wins whiskey.
Joel (5m 49s):
Yeah. Yeah. And speaking of Barb, she's down there in Phoenix so she can enjoy that beer while she roots on her sons. And if you haven't up for free shit, what's wrong with you? There are real winners. These are real people. Head out to chadcheese.com/free. Give us your info. And we just draw it out of a hat and they get free, free booze, free booze and t-shirts by Emissary, are all an option when you sign up for free. So do that today. If you haven't kids shout out to Candace Parker, she was announced the first woman ever on the NBA 2K that's, a video game, kids cover. Awesome basketball player and quite a looker by the way is.
Joel (6m 30s):
She's the first woman to be on the cover. It brought Shaquille O'Neal to tears on TV. So it's kind of a big moment in the world of sports and equity.
Chad (6m 38s):
He's a sensitive guy though. He's big, he's brawny, but he's sensitive and that's okay. This 2021 Joel. If you're out there and you're listening and you have topics or articles you believe we should be digging into here on the show, well, mosey on over to Twitter and share them using hashtag Chadcheese or tag us. You can also tag us on LinkedIn or just go to Chadcheese.com bottom of the page, click on the contact us button and engage. We enjoy it.
Joel (7m 10s):
Yeah. Shout out to Instawork. This show is so jam packed with news. This thing is a shout out. So Instawork announced a $60 million series C raise in financing, bringing its total funding to a hundred million dollars. Shout out to Instawork, man, in any other week, you'd be a main headline, but this week you're just a shout out. Sorry.
Chad (7m 33s):
Just a shout out today is going to be the M&A version. You ready for some topics?
Joel (7m 38s):
Oh my God. No. I've got a few more shout outs to boomers LA times this week reports that a 10,000 boomers are retiring every day in this country. That's going to open up some new jobs for a lot of people and probably some real estate. Shout out to Trump who keeps the fundraising enterprise going by suing big tech. Imagine that the funds that are coming in on that for all the Trump followers.
Chad (8m 2s):
You know that nothing's going to this quote unquote "suing." he got on a news channel, put a Fox news mic in front of him, started talking about suing somebody and please donate to my, you know, my campaign of suing these assholes. And all he's going to do is bank it. He's going to bank it. And I love how old white dudes claiming to quote unquote, "cancel culture." No asshole. You broke the rules. These are called the consequences. This is what happens when you do stupid shit.
Joel (8m 34s):
And by the way, when you do donate, you'll be defaulted into the ongoing monthly donations whether you want to do that or not. By the way, there's a new book on Facebook, that's pretty revealing. I'm going to check that out and maybe report back on that. Otherwise we have a few birthdays to mention, Bill Fisher from Vonq. He celebrates a birthday this week. Will Staney from Proactive Talent.
Chad (8m 58s):
Joel (8m 58s):
Christian Anderson. If you don't remember Christian Anderson was the PR guy for Jobster.
Chad (9m 4s):
Joel (9m 5s):
And dealing with that PR nightmare had to be fun he's way out of this industry, but Christian happy birthday to you. Jason Morris, founder of Employee Screen IQ and my former boss and client, he celebrates a birthday. And Jeff Hunter, founder of Talentism also the former head of talent at EA and I think Bose really great guy, he's sort of disappeared, he used to blog a lot, but he celebrates a birthday. A lot of people getting older in our industry and shout out to those folks.
Chad (9m 38s):
Joel (9m 41s):
Google for Jobs who would have thought this.
Chad (9m 45s):
Joel (9m 45s):
So a little bit here, Google is adding direct, apply markup and new editorial guidelines for job postings, no traffic for you, which you coined. And I'll let you get in that a second. The new guidelines include rules around obstructive text and images, excessive and distractive ads or content that doesn't add any value to the job posting getting nixed. What do you got on no jobs for you?
Chad (10m 8s):
Dude. So it was funny because I remember we talked about Google Hire being like a 20% time project.
Joel (10m 17s):
Chad (10m 18s):
We automatically got calls from the Google team on that one. Seriously, Google for Jobs has felt like a 20% project because it's been a shitty experience the entire time. Now these new changes where they're going to be focusing on really looking for feeds with spam jobs, better user experience, whether you know that the organization is asking for registration, if there's an excessive or obstructive pop-up ads, updating your feeds to make sure that you don't have expired jobs in them, masking old jobs with new date.
Joel (10m 56s):
That's a biggie.
Chad (10m 57s):
That's a total Tom fuckery right there. That's when, you know, if somebody is doing that, kill their feed. Kill their feed, they're doing nothing but trying to gain the system and then adding data that wasn't really a wasn't originally on the job like salary, which I thought was interesting because you see Indeed and you see a ton of other organizations who do this to try to make more of a robust type of a job listing. But if it wasn't on the job in the first place, should it really be there? Google says, no, get that shit off there. But the direct apply thing I think is the markup itself. That's big.
Joel (11m 35s):
Yeah, for sure. So in addition to, I guess the anti-spam moves, which are surprising and probably fantastic from a user's perspective, they added a new direct apply property to the job posting structured data. This property gives websites an optional way to share if your job listing offers a direct apply experience, right from Google search. Google defines a direct apply experience in terms of the actions that are required from the users to apply to the job. This means that a user is offered a short and simple application process on your page without unnecessary intermediate steps. If the user has to click apply complete an application form, sign in or log in more than once in the application journey, it means that you aren't offering a direct apply experience, no traffic for you.
Joel (12m 23s):
This is really, really interesting on a few levels. I do want to echo your sentiment about the old Google versus the new Google.
Chad (12m 32s):
Joel (12m 32s):
And 15 years ago, Google probably would have looked at all the spam and criticism like people like you and me give them. And would've just said, fuck it. And shut the whole thing down. Now they're digging in and caring about the product, which I think may be a component of lawsuits around the world and they're gonna have to pay media companies a lot of money, which will, we'll also talk about, I think, in the European show. But in while they're paying media companies to put their news onto Google, there'll be simultaneously sticking the knife in their back as they take their classifieds money with Google for Jobs and, and other components. So I wanted to put that out there.
Joel (13m 13s):
But the direct apply is huge. I mean, if particularly ATSs figure out how they can allow users of Google for Jobs to apply directly from Google is game-changer too much of hyperbole around that? Because if you can do that one, people don't even need to go to sites anymore, which they haven't really been doing anyway. And we've been hearing a lot about no one's going to job sites anymore and no one's clicking on jobs anymore. But it also really fucks, fucks you a few if you make your business by pay-per-click ads or clicking on ads, because if no one's clicking there and they're applying directly from Google, that's taking out the middleman almost entirely.
Joel (13m 56s):
So if this thing takes off and they work with the ATSs, and like, I think it's big potentially for the LinkedIn's where people trust and they maybe have data already in LinkedIn to apply easily. That's huge. Now people like Alex Murphy have thrown out the issue of, well, is there pre-screening in that? Is there any kind of like just basic level, otherwise it's just sort of a CRM and you're capturing data. So it's still left to be determined exactly how this looks and if people will actually embrace it, but if it works right, holy shit, it's a big deal for sure.
Chad (14m 32s):
I think for the most part, what they're looking at right now for direct apply is that if I am applying for a job at IBM, when I click on that job, does it send me to a job posting on Glassdoor or Monster, right? That's not direct, but if I click on that job and it sends me to the actual job posting on IBM will, that is direct. Now there are other editorial pieces on the guideline process for user experience. And that's when you dig deeper into it. So first and foremost, you have many different components. The first component is that direct apply component. Is it direct? If it has to go through an actual job board itself before they apply directly to them, then it's not direct, right?
Chad (15m 17s):
And you'll be say penalized. But when you're talking about the actual process methodology and take it half an hour to fill out a fucking application, that's an entirely different conversation and you could be penalized as well. So job boards could, in some effect, whether they're a direct apply or not, could still rank higher than jobs on applicant tracking systems, because the user experience is shit on many applicant tracking systems. And that's not the fault of the applicant tracking system in many cases. In many cases, it's because the company has some old ass process methodology, which they haven't changed in 10, 15, 20 years.
Joel (16m 1s):
So my interpretation was that there was actually applying from Google for Jobs that you didn't have to click on anything and go to any site, but you could also do it as going directly to apply.
Chad (16m 12s):
Yeah. But you can't, you don't have your information available on Google to be able to just push it into an applicant tracking system. I think that's something that could come later, but right.
Joel (16m 24s):
So when did they, when did they launch Google resume or Google profile or something?
Chad (16m 29s):
You know, if you're using Google docs, you could have it in a Google doc as it is. And if you, if you hit apply, you can choose, you know, apply with, you know, a Google doc or whatever, right? So there, there are some opportunities that could happen there with their current infrastructure of their G-Suite. But overall, that's not going to happen right out of the gate. No way.
Joel (16m 50s):
I think the summary is Google cares about this shit and if you thought they were just going to ignore it and go away, you're probably mistaken.
Chad (16m 58s):
And performance based ads, baby, that's the next step. They're cleaning this up so that they can say, okay, look, now we have better rules in place, we've been doing this long enough. We know where we're getting scammed. We know where people are actually gaming us. We've put these rules in place. Now we can start doing performance based ads.
Joel (17m 19s):
Follow the money. Chad is my mantra. And speaking of following the money, we got some fucking MNA action that went on, went on this week. Which one do you want to start with? We got Yello, Hireology and Circa.
Chad (17m 31s):
Let's go with Yellow and WayUp.
Joel (17m 33s):
All right, what's going on there? You did a shred on it. Yep.
Chad (17m 37s):
Yellow. And this is from the press release. Yello, the leader in early talent and campus recruitment and WayUp the leader in DEI and diversity sourcing announced that the companies are joining forces AKA they're merging. The WayUp team will be joining Yello and WayUp co-founders will play major roles in the combined company. I got to give a shout out to Madeline Lorato over at Aptitude Research for inviting me into interview with her. Liz Wessel, who CEO of WayUp and Corey Ferengul, who is the CEO of yellow earlier this week. And whether, I don't know if you know this or not Joel, but Liz has been a long time Chad and Cheese junkie.
Chad (18m 22s):
And she actually has a kind of like a podcast book club at WayUp. Yeah.
Joel (18m 28s):
There needs to be an opioid for that addiction. What struck me was so WayUps total funding was, is 37 million. They were founded in 2014. Yello's total funding is 46 million. They're the old dog here they've been around since 2008, apparently. So an acquisition by those two companies with sort of, I guess, valued at the same I'm struggling with how the deal went down and how somebody had enough money to pay for it. And I, one of the things from the college perspective that I find fascinating is sort of how quickly handshake has impacted that industry. And I'm not an expert on the college recruiting scene, but clearly handshake has, has made a huge dent in that whole ecosystem.
Joel (19m 17s):
So for me, this is a little bit of, from my perspective, I've talked about, you know, Hey, if two dinosaurs can cuddle together, you know, do they survive the asteroid longer than those that don't? To me, this is like two companies that are sort of, they're not Handshake. Handshake is takes taking all the oxygen out of the room, these guys getting together and saying, Hey, if we partner up this diversity thing is big. Companies have budgets specifically now for diversity and they have new money in those budgets. So it's like, let's join forces. Let's get some of that diversity cabbage and take on Handshake. Am I correct in that perception? Or am I off?
Chad (19m 56s):
Think of it this way, Handshake and Simplicity, both of those platforms, they own probably 80% of the market with regard to college recruiting platforms, right. But that's the old model Yello and WayUp would be the entirely new model. Right? So if I'm an employer and I go to, you know, all these different schools, I'm using different platforms to be able to do on-campus recruiting. Well, why don't I just have my own platform, right? I should be building my own talent pipelines. Why don't I just have my own platform and a couple of different areas first and foremost, Yello is that enterprise platform.
Chad (20m 36s):
Now what WayUp does is they have about 10 to 30,000 students signing up with them every week. So instead of having something that is just built inside of the University that sucks all the cash out of it.
Joel (20m 49s):
Chad (20m 50s):
Why not have an SMB model where small companies can go and pay a small fee to be able to get candidates from wherever and whatever university?
Joel (20m 59s):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they're touting 6 million candidates, a database of 6 million candidates, recent graduates and students for more than 7,000 campuses. And they're claiming 71% are black, Hispanic, or female as well as tens of thousands of veterans. So they're clearly doing something right. From what you're saying is these two companies combined are going to be a major force in college campus recruiting?
Chad (21m 23s):
I think even though I sound so bullish about it, that this is really a shot in the dark because the college recruiting industry in itself is built in the 1950s and it still is there. So trying to drag it out of that is going to be incredibly hard for any organization. But I do see Handshake and Simplicity as the old model and then the combination of WayUp and Yello as the new model. We'll see which one wins.
Joel (21m 54s):
Yeah. And it's, it's tough because you've got, when something like that happens, you think where's change going to happen. And in this model you would say like, well, the students probably don't give a shit, they're not out there with pitchforks saying, get rid of the career centers.
Chad (22m 6s):
They're just not using them.
Joel (22m 7s):
The companies are probably where it should happen, but we've heard stories of if you screw over the college, then you get moved down the list of the job of the job fair prime real estate corner or whatever. Like, I don't know if we can mention his name, but the conversation we had on LinkedIn was like, companies are afraid to cross the college because they're afraid that they'll, they'll get, you know, non preferential treatment at the next job fair if they go do something outside of the college campus.
Chad (22m 34s):
How many students actually utilize the college career center? It's not over 50%. That's for fucking sure.
Joel (22m 42s):
Back in the nineties Chad, I used to live at the career center.
Chad (22m 45s):
That's only because they had hot chicks at work there.
Joel (22m 49s):
That is true. That is true. All right. We still got Hireology and Circa. What do you want next?
Chad (22m 55s):
Hireology buys EmployUs. So Hireology, friend of the show, "the leading recruitment CRM built for multi location decentralized enterprises" (Wow. Marketing, you need to work on that) announced the acquisition of employee referral technology provider EmployUs. No figures were disclosed, which means to me it was on bargain basement pricing.
Joel (23m 19s):
TJ Maxx, baby.
Chad (23m 20s):
Yup. Yeah. I think core platforms, especially niche and SMB they need to be able to provide a reason for hiring companies with the disparate locations to not just go to ZipRecruiter. Right? And this is the biggest issue. Employee referrals are all already one of the best sources for hiring, right? So why do I need a fucking platform to do that?
Joel (23m 45s):
That's a good question, Chad. And the platform didn't strike me as, you know, superior innovation. It was sort of like email your employees, and say, do you know anybody for this job or text them the same thing? My question is, I mean, we know referral programs work, they are continually the number one source of hire or new hires in a company. My question is, and this is more for you because this is your lane. As we get more into referral programs and diversity, that seems to me like a collision course for disaster, because at its heart, to me, referral programs are recommend people that, you know, for this job.
Chad (24m 29s):
Friends of Bob.
Joel (24m 30s):
So at the end of the day, if you're really focused on referral programs, then your whole company just looks like each, everybody looks like each other.
Chad (24m 37s):
Joel (24m 37s):
And I know that's general generalizing, but that's kinda what it is, right? If you want to really inject diversity into your organization, it seems to me like referral programs have to figure that out and good luck with that. What are your thoughts on that? I mean, it feels like if we're really focused on diversity, then, then referral programs kind of suck.
Chad (24m 56s):
Well that's a company issue, not a referral program issue because if you are working on your foundational diversity efforts and you are hiring people of color and more females and so on and so forth, then what you're going to do is you're going to amplify that. Right. So, you know, that's not an employee referral issue, that's a, that's a foundational corporate issue. Right. And so, but, but that's a good question because you've got to fix the foundational issue before you actually start the employee referral.
Joel (25m 28s):
Think is where a lot of companies are or most companies.
Chad (25m 31s):
I would think so, but I'm, you know, I'm not a hundred percent sure. I mean, this is a journey where companies really have to focus on and they should be transparent about it. And most aren't, you know, in their workforce composition. And at that point, you challenge yourself publicly to do better. And as you do better, you start to institute employee referral programs, which could if done correctly, amplify diversity within your organization. That's I mean, and that's from the ground up for the most part. So yeah, I think there are two different problems you have to have that foundational change made before you can really Institute the employee referral piece.
Joel (26m 10s):
Do we know of any referral software out there that sort of incentivizes bringing in diverse candidates? Because that seems like that would be a solid business that would get a lot of money because it's diversity.
Chad (26m 23s):
First off again, I don't believe a referral platform is going to help you there. What I do believe though, if you do focus on your DEI efforts and you want to be able to amplify them, then you should be doing referrals and like a company like Real Links who, you know, Sam out of out London, I've been working with them for a little while. They've got an amazing platform that is focused on engagement. That's one of the issues that most employee referral platforms have, is keeping employees engaged and actually using the platform. If you've done your job as a company, and you have created that diverse foundation of a workforce, then a platform like Real Links is one that you can plug in.
Chad (27m 10s):
But again, I don't see an employee referral platform answering any DEI initiatives by itself.
Joel (27m 20s):
By the way, Hireology has raised a total of 60 million. EmployUs raised $750,000 back in 2014. So your guess today was probably a discounted purchase. Something that Hireology could easily do is probably correct. They've added that technology to their platform.