Halloween and Election Day are right around the corner, but that's nothing compared to the scream-inspiring news that came out of recruiting this week. Let's see...
Handshake looks like the new MonsterTrak,
Job descriptions are actually getting worse,
Bomerang layoffs are now a thing (thanks pandemic!),
Automation is coming after 85 million jobs
...and reporters are doing Zoom meetings with their pants down.
Talk about heads spinning, vomit covering the walls and chainsaws coming after your melon, recruiting has us deep in the fetal position. As always, HR's most dangerous podcast is powered by Sovren, JobAdx, and Jobvite.
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION sponsored by:
Dude, turn off your camera, man. And put that thing away.
Chad & Cheese Intro (4s):
Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast. girls.
Joel "Quiby" Cheesman (28s):
If you're into mute buttons and debates, then you're listening to the wrong show. Howdy boys and girls, welcome to the podcast lots of vendors would like to silence. I'm your cohost, Joel "quibby" Cheeseman.
Chad "Put That Thing Away" Sowash (41s):
And I'm Chad "put that thing away" Sowash
On this week's episode, handshake is one hell of a pickpocket. Automation is coming for you, HR and make sure that laptop camera's off before firing up the porn hub here comes your favorite, not safe for work podcast about work. We'll be right back after paying some bills.
JobAdX (1m 3s):
Whether you're struggling to fill high volume, hourly roles or looking for long-term full time talent, your recruiting toolkit needs to be lean and mean as you adjust with fewer resources, tighter budgets and rapid hiring needs in a saturated and competitive market. Posting jobs, shouldn't be a lengthy, risky or fruitless process. You can count on JobAdX to be your force maximizer. Automate the details of your programmatic job ad distribution candidate targeting and budget management so you can focus your energy on the big picture and human aspects of recruiting top talent. Reach relevant candidates effortlessly across 200 sites in the U S and Canada. Simply upload a feed of your jobs and set your budget in less than five minutes.
JobAdX (1m 44s):
We do the rest. Getting an influx of applicants already that just aren't the right fit JobAdX presents your jobs to targeted candidates based on their job preferences to get granular. Now your advertising spend can go towards more relevant candidates, not just more applicants. What's more your JobAdX programmatic campaigns now reach for government job bank systems in over 30 States, giving you centralized access to the majority of active job seekers, eager to get off of unemployment and get back to work. Send us a note today with your unique challenge, to see how we can help you in the new state of recruiting, make the next step forward and start your results focused campaign now at JobAdX.com that's JobAdX.com.
Joel (2m 23s):
It's debate night, Chad.
Chad (2m 26s):
Joel (2m 28s):
Election day is coming and Halloween btw.
Chad (2m 32s):
Halloween came early to the Sowash house in the form of an iCIMS goody box. Hahah. That's right kids. I mean, not to mention, had some time with Susan Vitaly earlier this week. So there's going to be an interview coming soon.
Joel (2m 50s):
Now we know where all that money's going for the, the, the celebrity speakers at their conference because they downgraded my Yeti from two years ago to a Coleman tumbler. So you know.
Chad (3m 1s):
You're such a Fucking elitist. I swear.
Joel (3m 3s):
Hey, You know what, dude, there's a lesson in this. If you're a vendor, you got to up your game. Like if you're not giving away Patagonia stuff, Yeti stuff like just don't bother.
Chad (3m 12s):
Joel (3m 13s):
It's a good thing. Our t-shirts are such good quality. God, that's the mantra we live by.
Chad (3m 18s):
Yeah. Yeah. Let's make sure that that happens. So before we get into anything else, we have to make sure that we understand that now through the social universe and poles, that Michael Myers is more scary than Jason Voorhees. That's right. Kids Halloween over Friday the 13th. Here's my thought though, is that personally? I think you hamstrung Jason with your creepy horny teenager comments.
Joel (3m 44s):
Oh, like I'm the first one to ever make that comment.
Chad (3m 47s):
Out loud. Probably.
Joel (3m 49s):
Oh, Come on now. Let's go search YouTube later.
Chad (3m 52s):
Joel (3m 54s):
Let's keep it positive for a second. Shout Out to our girl, Abby Cheeseman.
Applause (3m 59s):
Chad (3m 59s):
Joel (3m 60s):
No relation whatsoever. But she welcomed I'm dubbing and Pepper Jack Cheeseman, or Jack Cheeseman as his parents probably call him, welcome to the world. Welcome Jack. We need more Cheesmans in this world and dammit it's a boy. Who's going to create more Cheeseman. So there you go Sowash
Chad (4m 17s):
Just as long as it's not in your 23 chromosomes question from Neil Dunwoody, right out of the gate, over in the UK, he asks, why are so many recruiters, ghosting candidates after the interview? So, Joel, why are people getting ghosted? I know it's around Halloween, but what's what's going on?
Joel (4m 38s):
Well, I'm having a problem getting ghosted by babysitters. I don't know what's going on. I want to have a date night with my wife, but it's becoming harder and harder because babysitters just, they say, they're going to show up. And then they don't. And I don't know, it's a youth problem maybe. It's a culture thing, I guess like nobody learns civility. No one learns responsibility anymore. I guess it's just easier not to show up or not answer a text than to step up and say, you know what? I don't want to do it. Maybe it's a "I don't want to hurt feelings" thing. I don't know.
Chad (5m 10s):
You're you're so much like a millennial because you make every question about you. So Neil, I'll answer your question. My friend.
Joel (5m 16s):
I like talking about nothing more than myself.
Chad (5m 19s):
Think of all the candidates that are out there today and all the recruiters that you don't have, right? So it's really a scale issue. And I think it's one of the reasons why companies are looking to automation and why we're seeing so many companies on the vendor side, actually doing well. They're getting a lot more RFPs are getting a lot more leads coming in. And it's because of this problem, it's scale. And as soon as we understand as human beings, we can't scale fast enough, but tech can do a lot of this stuff and do more scaling. There you go. And then hopefully by then we'll have robot babysitters, and then Joel will be okay.
Joel (5m 57s):
Don't forget one of our favorite quotes from Amman Brar, who said chatbots are like anti ghosting magic. So maybe that's maybe that's the cure. I don't know.
Chad (6m 7s):
But canvas doesn't exist anymore.
Joel (6m 9s):
Okay. You beat me to the punch. You beat me to the punch. Okay. So shout out to go canvas.io. My favorite domain, I know it's close to your heart. Go canvas.io, which I've made fun of so many times since they launched is now gone. It is now redirecting to Jobvite rest in peace. Go canvas.io.
Chad (6m 30s):
It was going to happen. That's all I have to say about that. Big Shout Out to Victoria Conley from Philly for entertaining, Twitter, snark, John Salt out of London he loves the podcast and Aaron Stewart, formerly of England. Now in Austin, Texas, he loves him some beer drop. Joel. Tell him about beer drop.
Joel (6m 51s):
Oh sure. Beer drop free beer. So head out to beerdrop.net. We've partnered with Adzuna. Who wants to build that brand in America? And by golly, they're going to do it with us drinking beer. So head out to beerdrop.net give us your address. Don't worry. We won't show up in a Jason Voorhees mask and you'll win a chance to win free beer and maybe get on a zoom call and talk shop or taste test, or I don't know, it could get crazy, Chad beerdrop.net
Chad (7m 19s):
And it's contactless, my friends. It's coming straight to your front door. That's right. We are COVID friendly here at the Chad and Cheese podcast.
Joel (7m 28s):
Shout Out to a NASA. I don't know if you saw this today. NASA is connecting with asteroids. This just blows my mind.
Chad (7m 36s):
This is Armageddon is what that is.
Joel (7m 37s):
We get caught up. Yeah. We get caught up in elections and hating each other and a civil war and Russian interference. And there's still really cool shit happening at NASA where they're actually touching down on asteroids, taking samples. They're apparently dodging space material that's the size of buildings. Just really cool shit. Shout Out to NASA.
Chad (7m 58s):
Yeah. I just keep thinking of Bruce Willis landing on that asteroid. Shout Out to John Thurmond, host of the podcast, HR social hour, half hour, wait a minute that's confusing. He gave us a big plug this week on Twitter. We connected and talked pod shop and it was lit. Also, I've heard that Tom Horribin over in the UK, he actually left the recruiting industry, but he still listens to the Chad and Cheese podcast. So big Shout Out to you, Tom. You keep listening, man. I don't know what's I don't know what your problem is, but you keep it up and last but not least in this barrage, Joshua Seacrest, who is head of McDonald's global talent strategy.
Chad (8m 48s):
He loves the podcast. And I don't know if it's just me, but whenever I hear the name, Joshua, I think of Gary Busey and Lethal Weapon. Mr. Joshua,
Joel (8m 60s):
Not Joshua tree, YouTube best-selling album.
Chad (9m 3s):
Nah, I can't stand YouTube.
Joel (9m 5s):
That's that's you. And that's me, by the way, anytime you call me a millennial, I'm going to bring up the fact that you said lit in the middle of a Shout Out. And all right, if we're doing a machine gun, Shout Outs, Shout Out for me to Quiby. 1.7 billion raise 3 million in revenue. 63 million spent in advertising did six months in and they're shuttering. Are you fucking kidding me? Shout Out to Google who's going to face antitrust legislation, we'll see what happens. Search engine and how it impacts jobs, which we'll certainly be talking about on the show. Shout Out to big 10 football, which returns this weekend, Ohio state and Nebraska. Yes. Shout out to Bennett Song, a marketing guy at Humanly, by the way, make sure you catch that Firing Squad, which debuted this week.
Joel (9m 51s):
Bennett on LinkedIn actually gave a guide to surviving the Firing Squad, which I thought was just awesome. Shout Out to Chris Dunn I was a guest on his Best Hire Ever podcast. So feel free to check that out and the Social Dilemma, if you have Netflix and haven't watched it, I recommend it. Chad, I think you'd probably recommend it as well. And lastly from me, Crelate recently produced the recruiter's guide to text recruiting. That's Crelate, crelate.com. And it features a quote from your boy. And that's it for me,
Chad (10m 27s):
Shout Out. So we're a little SHRM smacked down action. This is funny first and foremost, why do people become members of SHRM?
Joel (10m 35s):
Chad (10m 36s):
Is that what it is? You think? It's like, all these notifications will, how come you're not a SPHR alla dotious?
Joel (10m 45s):
Student funneling. So kids in college are told they have to be insured and they joined SHRM in college and then they just stay members the rest of their life.
Chad (10m 52s):
It's a racket. So I received an email from a few share members that was actually a pitch for the SHRM payroll solution, which is basically a white labeled money network platform. And here's a quote from one of the, the sure members quote, "wow, SHRM selling bad payroll software to members, but presenting it like it's a benefit. This Adam Sohn seems slimy as fuck" end quote. This dude, Adam Sohn is the chief growth officer for SHRM and SHRM members pay dues. So you would think that they wouldn't get this, this bullshit.
Chad (11m 32s):
Is SHRM the new Amway?
Joel (11m 36s):
That's harsh. You know, you know, they have some prime real estate there off of Duke street in Alexandria, Virginia, and they gotta pay for shit like that. So they got to make money somewhere. So if it's like blessing technology solutions, then so be it. But yeah, I think membership is eventually going to put up with that or they're not, but certainly picking winners in technology is not the business SHRM should probably be in. They should be pretty agnostic in terms of that stuff. So that's questionable, but yeah, the membership will speak and guide, guide the organization as it should. And if they don't like it, they'll stop doing it. But knuckleheads like us who don't give a dime to SHRM , they could probably give a shit, what we think.
Chad (12m 17s):
So Events! Really quick, really quick, October 27th coming up this week at 2:00 PM. Eastern Time is Friendly Discourse. It's round to Chad Sowash versus Jim Stroud, we're going to be talking about Facebook's docking of employee pay ~ should individuals who are living in Silicon Valley when they move, should they be paid less because of cost of living. We're going to be debating that, having a great time, check out the socials on how to register should be a great time. If you're listening to this afterwards, go to circaworks.com, check out their events, we will be there and you can watch it recorded.
Chad (12m 57s):
It's all good!
Joel (12m 59s):
Chad (13m 1s):
Topics. Okay. So this one we're going to be, we're talking about Handshake getting $80 million. So if you, my friends are subscribed to Chad and Cheese in your pocket you already know this because we sent this out earlier this week. And if you're not subscribed to Chad and Cheese in your pocket, Joel, how do you do that?
Joel (13m 21s):
Yeah, you just a text CC. Those are the two letters. See the third letters in the alphabet. If you're paying attention, text CC to (833) 799-0321 again, that's text CC to(833) 799-0321 yet could be a jingle folks. (833) 799-0321
Chad (13m 46s):
Powered by emissary.ai.
Joel (13m 49s):
Chad (13m 51s):
So, so Handshake. What do you know about Handshake?
Joel (13m 55s):
Handshake? What, you know, what we grew up with? I don't know, there were quite a few college recruiting sites, college recruiter. We know really well and it's still around, but so, so it's sort of a new spin on an old model where a company gets college kids to put in their resume or their profiles. And then they go to colleges and employers to build partnerships, and then they sell access to these students to employers. And if you get MIT and Harvard and other really good schools to, to have their students put their stuff, and it becomes pretty valuable and Handshake, which launched in 2013. So it's not that much of a startup, but still technically I guess, has done this.
Joel (14m 35s):
And they're, they're in the news for raising $80 million this week, which is a lot of fucking money. They've raised $154 million total, founded by three dudes that is now a company of 220 employees, 7 million active student users, more than a college and university partners and more than 500,000 employers. The big selling point and the reason for the money is virtual career fairs. They're really, really confident that they can get a lot of companies to get access to these kids for a lot of money virtually because no one's meeting face to face on college campuses these days.
Chad (15m 12s):
Yeah. And that brings their valuation to $700 million. I mean,
Joel (15m 17s):
More than CareerBuilder and Monster sold for it's
Chad (15m 21s):
Ridiculous. Their revenues appear to be around 40 million, according to zoom info, Grow Joe and Owler. And I got some amazing insights from our friend, Steven Rothberg over at College Recruiter.
Joel (15m 36s):
Chad (15m 37s):
Which is they're, they're in the same space, but they're not, they're kind of like fringe competitors. They're not like head to head competitors. So he was able to give me some, some really good insights. And there's also a history lesson here. So let's talk about Handshake first. First Handshakes business model seems to possibly put career center service offices out of business. Handshake is providing services that most career service offices provide, which seems like a logical extension for outsourcing. And from my standpoint, this seems like a Trojan horse waiting to happen. It's less money, at the possibility of higher quality than the state the schools can provide and or afford.
Chad (16m 18s):
Not to mention we have COVID happening, right? So budget cuts are going to be happening with COVID and this might be a prime opportunity hence why they're getting $80 million to prospectively take over as career service offices. Let's take a look at history. You remember Job Track.
Joel (16m 38s):
I do, but many of our listeners probably don't.
Chad (16m 41s):
Job Track was really the main platform back in the day, about 20, 20 plus years ago, I was a campus and career center friendly platform that pretty much owned the college recruiting market until monster.com bought them rebranded to Monster Track, and then started on this same line of thinking, get rid of the university career services, use monster track, and you'll cut costs, save money and have scalability. Well, the career center directors, obviously weren't happy with this and went to NACE the National Association of Colleges and Employers, their professional association, asking them for help to head off Monsters Play.
Chad (17m 24s):
So nays contacted direct employers, and this is where me and the team over there came in and together we with NACE and the career center directors created an entirely new platform called NACElink. And we were able to head off Monster Track, which eventually really died. I'm not sure that this Trojan horse is going to be able to be headed off like that one was.
Joel (17m 52s):
Yeah. I mean, I think the virtual career fair thing is super hot. I know that we talk about it regularly. I know a sponsor recruit tology and all the chat bots are trying to do it and do colleges do it as well. That's really left to be seen I know college career centers are quite a cost center for schools. So yeah, you know, you, you mix that with sort of COVID and, and the reality of the world we live in today. But you also deal with, you know, structures that have been around for a long time. And you have an organization that, you know, appreciates tenure and longevity and sort of stability. So when you have these companies come in these.com so to speak and try to like maneuver in and take over, schools don't like that a whole lot.
Joel (18m 37s):
Their investors seem to think that the virtual career fair industry alone is a billion dollar opportunity for them. Very valuable schools are going to be threatened at some point, whether these guys dodge the minefields and make it successful is left to be seen, but the numbers kind of speak for themselves. They're on a trajectory that's pretty good. Yeah.
Chad (18m 56s):
I think there is a big danger of the traditional career center director and staff being decimated by this, mainly because of COVID because universities are going to be looking at areas to be able to cut costs because they're not going to be able to fill the seats like they used to, until they can really get into an understanding of what hybrid learning looks like. But overall, I mean, these platforms, they're going to be able to help, I think, connection between individuals who couldn't make the track, let's say for instance, like the big brand names who could spend the money versus the smaller guys who just couldn't spend the money so there is a level playing field that could happen here.
Joel (19m 47s):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, imagine we talk about timing being so important to success. And these guys like you couldn't ask for a better thing than to have an insight with colleges and then have the whole world shut down, but still have employers still want to have access to these students, right? Walla, virtual career fairs. And these guys were in the right place at the right time.
Chad (20m 9s):
Now you need a challenger brand because these guys are obviously, they're heading everybody off at the pass. Now you need a challenger brand. So what's the challenger brand that's going to come out and be that number two in give universities a choice, because from my understanding Handshake is $90,000 a year for employers to use. Now, again, we were talking about before how we could level the playing field. That's not going to level the playing field for some organizations who don't have big brands. So it's going to be interesting to see how this plays out.
Joel (20m 47s):
Chad (20m 50s):
Joel (20m 51s):
One thing interesting about Handshake is they have reviews, like internship reviews, but they're behind not the paywall, but they're there behind the membership wall. So only students can read the reviews for the most part. And the employers can as well what's said about them, but they've really built their brand a lot largely on the backs of the reviews that are on the site that students really love. They love to get the nitty gritty about what it's like to intern at company A, B and C before they, before they sign up.
Chad (21m 19s):
The thing that you could have a review on is how shitty some of those job postings are.
Joel (21m 25s):
Holy Shit, this got you all fired up this week.
Chad (21m 27s):
So, Adam Gordon of Candidate ID fame, I Adam, Hey Adam, what's up. He brought the following job descriptions to our attention on LinkedIn and Facebook and so on and so forth. So, Joel, I can't think of a situation where the job description is not important. Can you?
Joel (21m 46s):
It's incredibly important. It's the landing page by which you get someone to buy or not your product.
Chad (21m 53s):
Yeah. In bad job descriptions can increase bias, drive down female and individuals of color applying for the job for starters. And the first one we're going to hit up is a company called Cloud Flare. Yeah. Cloud Flare. They had a head of expansion and they currently do have a head of expansion marketing in a Mia, which is located in London. And the requirements are 12 plus years proven experience in a Mia enterprise B to B, with enterprise software, SAS and or regional marketing background in networking info, info security, or related job fields a plus.
Chad (22m 39s):
The next one, eight years of experience leading teams and a strong interest in mentorship and professional development, eight years, and the experience leading campaign events and field marketing with a track record in hitting targets. And the one they removed was BaBS in marketing business or related fields. Graduate degree is a plus. So that is CloudFlare. And they did remove one, but the ones they didn't remove, especially the number one 12 plus years proven experience in a Mia enterprise, B2B marketing.
Joel (23m 18s):
So either someone is really incompetent or someone's been copying and pasting too much in their recruitment career. Yeah. This doesn't like turn off a lot of people and really relegate who can apply to the job, nothing else. Well, at least they got high energy and curious team leader right. In that job posted, by the way, I, I gave a shout out to the Social Dilemma, which I know you've watched. And for those that have, and it's just sort of how social media is built and the algorithms are built to keep you coming to their site and, and keep you engaged. And, and one of the things that it was interesting to me, which is sort of the reminder that, you know, when you search something on Google, versus when I searched something, the searches that they recommend are different for you and different for me, the results for you are different for you in different me.
Joel (24m 2s):
And I think people sort of forget that. And I started thinking like, why couldn't the actual job posting for people be customized to who they are, and whether it's a business idea out there for somebody, or just my curiosity, if you know that someone is, you know, a certain age, a certain sex, a certain race, do job postings actually become customized, just like search results or search queries. And is that a good thing, if that does happen? Any thoughts.
Chad (24m 31s):
Yeah,no, you couldn't do that because you're actually delivering a different content, the different people could say that it's bias, right? I mean, you could say just on the pure basis that you're delivering different content to different people, it's biased. So that would be, that would be an issue. What I would say as we go into a Revolut and their head of recruitment operations is that when we set these requirements at such a crazy level, we have to realize that most underrepresented individuals who can do the job, will not meet the requirements, which means you will automatically screen them out.
Chad (25m 11s):
So let's go ahead and hit this one up Revolut, head of recruitment operations, at least seven years of work experience in process ops driven environment, where you led to the development of the process and the MS, PhD in operations, research engineering, physics, mathematics, computer science, and other related films, head of recruitment ops, familiar with concepts like value stream mapping, lean production, operations research, and mechanism design, knowledge, and experience in implementation of optimization in simulation models, mathematic programming you must have a qualitative background.
Chad (25m 57s):
I mean, it just keeps going. I mean, we're talking about SQL R Python, Ruby, Julia spark, SAS, minimum GPA. Holy fuck. This is for a recruit head of recruitment operations. Yeah. My mind is just blown at thinking that, I mean, this is basically Tyler Weeks, right? So what we're doing is we're looking for Tyler Weeks from Intel, right? Who is the head of their science analytics and all of that shit. How many Tyler's do you think are out there?
Joel (26m 32s):
Oh, well, we wish there were tons of Tyler's out there, but there aren't that many, unfortunately. So trying to recruit that in your language is obviously a lesson in folly. You know, another curious that I thought of is, as we're doing this in job postings are awful like, that's not a surprise to people. But shout out to our friend Katrina Kibin of the show, who's a copywriter and she's, she sent out a poll recently. I don't know if you saw this. It was like, how much would you pay for a professional to write your job posting? And I started thinking about like, wow, yeah. Why aren't companies employing professional job description writers to write their stuff? And it seems like, as we're talking about this, that there's a real opportunity to help companies get away from the copy and pasting of whatever they're doing now, or taking old, old job postings or old.
Joel (27m 21s):
I mean, we we've talked about job postings where someone has to have an ex have, you know, 10 years experience in a technology and the technology is four years old. Like there's such a disconnect in what companies are putting out there and what is really market worthy in terms of getting the right candidates. So there's some real disconnect here. And I think we're just highlighting it and looking at potential solutions.
Chad (27m 43s):
Are also platforms out there, like text DEO, Get Optimal, that you can run these things through to be able to help you understand bias too, to an extent, right. But I think the biggest issue here is we need to get the fuck out of the 1950s and stop asking for shit, the position doesn't need. If you're a recruiter or you're in, or you're a TA professional, that's allowing these types of jobs to go unchallenged. You're the biggest part of the problem.
Joel (28m 13s):
Yeah. Now imagine when all these big companies give certifications for, you know, things and that companies can't keep up with all the certifications that are out there. I mean, job postings are only going to get more and more challenging to connect with with buyers. I mean, I know that you look at the, the unbiased angle to this, and that's obviously super important and Textio helps you with a lot of that. But a lot of this is just salesmanship. Like, how do people read? What are the, you know, what verbs and adjectives are appropriate and effective and HR folks and recruiting managers just don't have that skillset. And it's becoming more and more important.
Chad (28m 51s):
This is the basic foundation and the start of where everything's built off of. Everything with regard to this hire, all the way through, right? So if you're not putting your time and emphasis on writing job postings, ensuring that you're, you're using platforms like Texteo and get optimal. And any of the other ones that are out there, this is the most important piece, because one, remember one of the things that we always talk about garbage in, garbage out. If we don't do this, right, the rest of the whole system is clogged up in fuck.
Joel (29m 24s):