HireVue, Pretty Bias Machine
This week, Jobcase gets an A in Recruitology, Jobvite gets unified and HireVue gets sued. Earnings from ZipRecruiter and a new podcast network from LinkedIn. Poor conversion rates for job seekers and PPC rates are skyrocketing. Luckily, OnlyFans is here to save us (again).
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Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.
Oh yeah. Google says they'll stop letting most employees do their job remotely putting workers on a three days in the office routine. Back to work snowflakes. Hey boys and girls, you're listening to the Chad and cheese podcast. This is your co-host Joel "do no evil" Cheeseman.
And this is Chad "sanctioned, sanctioned, sanctioned" Sowash.
And on this week, show Jobcase gets an A-plus in recruitology, Jobvite gets unified and Hireview gets their ass sued. Let's do this.
Woo. Woo. How was your night last night?
Joel (1m 1s):
My night was fine. We did a Zoom tasting with whiskey that you conveniently couldn't make, which you'll get into here in a second. But yeah, it was a fairly slow evening of a whiskey drinking with Chris Conrad from Textkernel and Tammy Bailey from Boar's Head.
Chad (1m 21s):
Joel (1m 21s):
Our winner. And we're the actual winners because both you and I get a Boar's Head gift set.
Chad (1m 26s):
That's what I'm talking about.
Joel (1m 29s):
Filled with cured meats and cheeses. Awesome stuff.
Chad (1m 32s):
While you were doing that, I was doing the hard work of babysitting Tyler Weeks. See if everybody probably remembers Tyler was at Intel. He's now currently at HiredScore. We hung out last night in Indy. Julie, Tyler, and I that's why I couldn't be at the whiskey tasting. So we had, we had a great time and we'll probably see Tyler tonight as well.
Joel (1m 52s):
Oh, very nice.
Chad (1m 53s):
Yeah. Nice. Very nice. He needs some Cheeseman.
Joel (1m 56s):
Yeah. He needs some learning on where to get a hotel room because not only did that
Chad (2m 4s):
Joel (2m 4s):
Eastside like the meetings downtown everyone's downtown, he's on like the east side and he's got a big place, but that was not real well calculated. I'm not, I'm not sure Tyler's fit to do my engineering if that's his hotel reservation strategy.
Chad (2m 19s):
Joel (2m 20s):
Shout out for me. I got LinkedIn every show is not complete without LinkedIn. Chad they've launched a podcast network.
Chad (2m 28s):
Oh, imagine my surprise.
Joel (2m 30s):
Featured shows produced by the LinkedIn news team. That sounds sexy as well as outside business figures, the shows are geared toward a professional audience and cover topics such as understanding tech, managing mental health and explaining the hiring process. To start there are 12 podcasts, four by LinkedIn news and the rest by outside hosts. Doubtful that you and I will be invited to join the network. Shout out to LinkedIn for launching another thing that's going to fail.
Chad (2m 58s):
They will be clamoring for Chad and Cheese by the time this thing's over. Big shout out to Doug Monroe and Adzuna. Adzuna has suspended commercial activity of the Adzuna.ru website in protest against the actions of the Russian army that invaded Ukraine. This is fucking awesome. Doug. I love that this is a sponsor first and foremost. Love to see this happen. When this popped up, I'm like, I hope everybody fucking does this.
Joel (3m 29s):
For sure. So I did a little bit of actual reporting and I tried to find like the top 10 largest Russian companies. And then I tried to see if they had ATSs that were run out of the free world and all the sites in Russia are down. Maybe they're blocked from me saying them, but my reporting didn't go very far. I was trying to be kind of cutesy, but good Fred and Adzuna and anybody else, I'm going to be curious to see if like Upwork and some of the gig economies deny service to Russian people. That will be interesting. Well, someone not doing business in Russia is ZipRecruiter.
Joel (4m 10s):
They had a pretty nice earnings report this week. So ZipRecruiter reported revenue growth during the last quarter that beat its own and Wall Street's expectations while also raising its forecast for the coming year. I guess you can thank Phil. The company stated in it's Q4 letter to shareholders quote, "since inserting Phil," that sounds naughty doesn't it? "We have increased the job seeker onboarding completion rate by 29%. Let's all bow down to Phil.
Chad (4m 43s):
I think they're giving Phil too much fucking credit.
Joel (4m 46s):
They really said it in a release "inserting Phil". That's nice.
Chad (4m 50s):
That's awesome. Big shout out to Airbnb. They're going to provide shelter to 100,000 Ukraine refugees. I love Airbnb. They are not like most American brands, who pitch pennies and they're not driven by fucking shareholders. Airbnb's brand and mission transcends the balance sheet. I love these guys. Whenever I go places, I generally stay in an Airbnb and shit like this will continue to get customers like me to do business with them.
Joel (5m 22s):
Warm and fuzzies with the Airbnb. Well someone that is concerned with shareholders, job.com gets a shout out this week. They announced the acquisition of QCI Healthcare.
Chad (5m 34s):
Joel (5m 36s):
Yeah. I know. A grand rapids, Michigan based staffing agency, the deal marks job.com's fifth staffing firm acquisition. Good for them.
Chad (5m 45s):
Very good. Very good. Big shout out to Ian White founder and CEO of ChartHop, who was scheduled to join us on Firing Squad, but he must've listened to a few episodes and then turned tail and fucking ran. He literally backed out of Firing Squad, we have never had a CEO, a startup CEO, back out of a Firing Squad before. So this is a notch in the belt for the Chad and Cheese first and foremost. But if you're listening and you haven't listened to Firing Squad, go to Chadcheese.com or wherever you listen to podcasts, click on Firing Squad and you will have a bounty of startup shark tank type of love.
sfx (6m 29s):
Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!
Joel (6m 32s):
Doesn't he know the line to get into a Firing Squad and they deny coming on the show.
Chad (6m 39s):
I love it.
Joel (6m 39s):
And we're not even gonna get into the number of companies that have been acquired.
Chad (6m 47s):
Joel (6m 47s):
Or cashed out because of their being on Firing Squad. But anyway, speaking of not afraid of Firing Squad, Dan Finnegan, former boss at Yahoo Hot Jobs, we're going way back in time on that one and Jobvite back when it was like ten people, announced on LinkedIn that he is now CEO of filtered.ai, a platform for hiring engineers. Along with Dan, they got $10 million in funding. So we're going to keep our eye on Filtered and Dan Finnegan. Shout out to him.
Chad (7m 21s):
Damn straight. You mentioned Google mandating Bay area workers getting back to the office by April 4th, to start quote unquote "hybrid working". This is a slow walk back to five days, 40 hours back in the office who you want to take that bet? Google is not going to allow remote work anymore. I can see this.
Joel (7m 42s):
No, there's a reason they bought up real estate when it cratered a couple of years ago. So yeah, and, and Apple will follow suit. A few of the ones we talk about will probably remain remote. But yeah, this is to me, the slow burn back to the office.
Chad (7m 58s):
But think about it though, man. Google's I mean, their rep has really been tarnished. I mean, they're not the cool brand anymore and developers don't, I mean, that's not a place where they see themselves. They're having to be dragged in, not just developers. I mean, just individuals and great talent. So the question is why the fuck put more obstacles in place when you're seeing great productivity anyway? That's what's been reported out from, I don't know how many fucking surveys we've seen that over the last few years. Why do this? You put yourself in such an amazing poaching position where your competitors will easily be able to say, look, brand's tarnished. They're fucking you by making the yeah.
Chad (8m 39s):
Yeah. You can get orange juice in the office. Who gives a shit. You want to come down in your PJ's.
Joel (8m 48s):
How dare you question Google. Chad, how dare you sir.
Chad (8m 50s):
Joel (8m 51s):
Proof will be in the pudding. If they go back to work and people start bouncing, they might have reversal of opinion on the hybrid model that they are creating for themselves.
Chad (9m 1s):
We shall see.
Joel (9m 3s):
Otherwise they're going to have to start writing some big checks to keep people around á la, Amazon, and Apple. Which Google can do, by the way, they can write some pretty big checks. That'll be interesting to see. Well, who else writes big checks, Chad?
Chad (9m 16s):
Joel (9m 17s):
Well, we don't really write checks, but we have free shit, which is almost as good.
sfx (9m 22s):
Joel (9m 22s):
If you haven't signed up yet, Chadcheese.com/free. We give away shit. People we give away t-shirts sponsored by Adzuna. We give away beer powered by our friends at Pillar and we give away whiskey like we mentioned earlier from our friends at Textkernel. So if you haven't done that yet, what the fuck you waiting for? Dude the world needs more free shit. And Chad and Cheese are here to deliver.
Chad (9m 48s):
Amen. Last shout out for me Fama. Remember Ben Mones. He was on the podcast, February, 2020, a social media background screening company gets $10 million in series B funding. How long do you think it'll take for one of these bigger Goliath background check companies to actually swallow these guys up?
Joel (10m 7s):
Yeah. Sterling went public recently. Some of the other ones, big ones are going to be going public soon. Checkr for example, I think that would be an interesting one, but yeah. Yeah. If they want to boost or bolster their stock price, a quick acquisition of a social media background check platform could be a good move to goose that stock price. So a Sterling I hope you're listening and I would not be surprised if they find a little couch cushion change, gobble up Fama.
Chad (10m 40s):
I want to see Checkr get in there and snatch them up. Checkr.
Joel (10m 44s):
All right. The wagers are out. We got Checkr and we got Sterling out there as the acquirers. Well, let's talk about birthdays.
Chad (11m 1s):
Joel (11m 2s):
Celebrating a birthday this week Michael, the Tech Czar of Cleveland DeAloia celebrates a birthday. <inaudible> totally said that right.
Chad (11m 17s):
Nice. I think you did pretty good.
Joel (11m 20s):
Evan White, Colin Barker, Bas Van de Haterd your boy. Haterd Adam Chamber.
Chad (11m 26s):
Joel (11m 27s):
The Irish assassin. Slainte to him. He celebrates his 25th of life. And Bob Etheridge, old friend of the podcast he celebrates another birthday this week.
Chad (11m 37s):
Happy birthday, Bob.
Joel (11m 37s):
Happy birthday, Bob. And we're on the road again Chad.
Chad (11m 41s):
On the road again. That's right events kids. You can go to chadcheese.com, click on events. We have our entire schedule there, but really quick. Going to be at the E recruitment Congress Friday, May 6th. Join us in Belgium. That's right. If you are in Europe, you should be in Belgium for the E recruitment Congress that's E recruitment-congress.com and then Unleash America May 25th and 26th at the MGM Grand in Vegas. Stay tuned. We're actually working on bringing some pretty big firepower to this stage in Vegas.
Chad (12m 23s):
Pretty stoked about that one.
Joel (12m 25s):
Fire power people.
Chad (12m 26s):
Joel (12m 27s):
And talking about firing. Damn, why can't I talk right now? I'm having a stroke apparently. Chad and cheese besties are in the news this week. Jobcase, AKA, LinkedIn, for those who aren't on LinkedIn announced the acquisition of recruitment marketing platform Recruitology on Thursday to bolster the company's ability to proactively match workers, to jobs. In a statement Jobcase highlighted that with these acquisitions, they're bringing together technology, employer acquisition expertise, and traffic capabilities to further scale the company's efforts to empower workers while matching members with employers at unparalleled pace and efficiency.
Joel (13m 14s):
Recruitology will continue to run as a separate business unit as part of Jobcase. And our buddy Roberto will remain as GM of Recruitology. Terms or not disclosed. Chad it's a marriage made in heaven, right?
Chad (13m 28s):
Yes. And I've got to ask how many of our sponsors have been acquired thus far? This is a great story. Chad and Cheese has a pretty good record. Go canvas.io acquired. Sovren acquired. Pandologic acquired. Recruitology now acquired. Not a bad batting average.
Joel (13m 50s):
Did you get a web clip drop?
Chad (13m 53s):
No, I didn't get the web clip drops at all.
Joel (13m 57s):
Our first sponsor.
Chad (13m 58s):
Yeah. Good one good one. So five and not a bad batting average as the only one that took a dump was Uncommon thus far. So we have five to one odds ratio. Welcome to Chad and Cheese. This acquisition is just incredibly smart. Go figure. Fred is an incredibly smart guy. Roberto is an awesome dude. This is a match made in heaven. How does this expand Jobcase's, total addressable market? Well, I mean really their total addressable market. I don't believe it does rather. I think it's going to expand wallet share dramatically because remember that more budget is spent on recruitment advertising and marketing than actual tech.
Chad (14m 42s):
So I see the same brands more into the Jobcase ecosystem, and that's a good thing, but it's going to be focused in the same areas, but driving more revenues on advertising in recruiting with those organizations, right? So it's always great to get a brand. It's always great to retain brand, but what's even better is increasing wallet share. And I think this is a great opportunity for Jobcase to increase wallet share in their ecosystem.
Joel (15m 11s):
Yup. A little context here combining with Jobcase, which brings the job seeker candidate side 120 million plus registered members and 20 million in monthly active users and Recruitology, which is focused on employers and channel partners allow the company to basically create a largest only after Indeed and Glassdoor in terms of large job seeker audience. So this is a fairly big idea.
Chad (15m 38s):
Joel (15m 38s):
Fairly big news. And I think that it primarily goes to the value of Recruitology is in the newspaper relationships. No, we have not gone back to the future to 2002, but newspaper relationships are an incredible way that Recruitology local focused marketing for job seekers. And that's kinda what Jobcase wants to do. They want to be able to put those small local employers and get them the job seekers that they need to apply to jobs and Recruitology plugs in. I mean, we're talking about Gannett, McClatchy first, pretty much any major newspaper in the country is now in play in terms of Jobcase, being able to distribute job postings and candidates into and to their job opportunities.
Joel (16m 31s):
So in addition to that, you have some fantastic programmatic job solutions from Recruitology that now they can plug into that at Jobcase. But to me the real muscle in this was around the newspaper partnerships and Jobcase, being able to tap into that. So great deal in terms of my position, in what I consider, and I think I'm glad that Roberto is going to be around. The dude's been a part of this industry for a long time.
Chad (16m 60s):
Joel (17m 0s):
Keeping the Recruitology brand is going to be important and popular for him and the people that support him. So all around. This is a major applause.
Chad (17m 10s):
Yeah, no question. No question. Hyper-local baby. Hyper-local.
Joel (17m 14s):
Hyper-local. Can you imagine we're still talking about newspaper partnerships 20 years after they were like a thing and how many people have gotten away from those newspaper partnerships?
Chad (17m 23s):
I remember when direct mail died and then it came back.
Joel (17m 27s):
That's true. That's true. That's true. Everything. Yeah. Let's get into it, everything that was old is now new again. All right. Let's go to Jobvite, you're in the know about this one. So what's going on at JobBite this week? Yeah.
Chad (17m 44s):
So last week, first we have a new umbrella org called Employee Inc with the three major brands next RPO, Jazz HR and Jobvite represented under that umbrella. So, you know, there's this new maturation process of, Hey, look, we've got to get our house in order. I love this, then this week we learn of the unification of products in brand, under Jobvites Evolve TA suite. So Roll Point, Telemetry and gocanvas.io. Those three brands have lived on in since the 2019 acquisitions are now blending into Jobvite as the Evolve TA suite.
Chad (18m 25s):
So you won't have no go canvas.io to kick around any more Cheeseman.
Joel (18m 28s):
Oh, that's a bummer.
sfx (18m 29s):
Oh, hell no.
Joel (18m 30s):
So my take on this kudos to Jobvite for being able to bring together pieces really in a complicated puzzle and put everything under one platform and brand. How many times did we see companies acquire other companies? They stay disparate and nothing ever sort of comes together. So first and foremost, I think congratulations to them for actually being able to create one brand, create everyone under that umbrella, and then create great services uunder that platform. And you and I talk a lot about one platform to rule them all. And it clearly looks like Jobvite is going into that realm of strategy. And to me, I like the Spotify versus Apple music example.
Joel (19m 12s):
You know, there's a large number of customers who want to use Spotify and all the, I dunno, the signals about doing that, looking like the cool kid, but there's a lot of other people in the audience that likes simplicity. They like being able to establish what the brand is and what Apple music. And it may not be as good. Some of it will be as good as Spotify, but they like simplicity. They like going to one company that provides all of these solutions. One umbrella, one brand that I think is as a strategy is going to work out pretty well for Jobvite.
Chad (19m 47s):
Joel (19m 48s):
Most people don't want to think, gee, I need SMS, but who really do I use to do that? I think they'd rather just provide, you know, buy one solution and just have SMS. They don't need to get Canvas or Text Recruit or anyone else. And this is the route that that Jobvite is taking. It also is a great way to control the process in terms of shielding startups from coming in and mucking up the system, for example. So if you have a texting solution that works really well in your marketplace and they get acquired by a competitor, well that creates a whole mess for you.
Joel (20m 28s):
It's much better to get people on your solutions, keep them in your ecosystem and kind of keep everyone out of the mix. So good for Jobvite.
Chad (20m 41s):
Unification aiss part of the natural maturation process for any ecosystem. So I like the separation of the three big brands, especially JazzHR, Jobvite, because keeping Jazz and Jobvite, siloed will guard against what happened to iCIMS and Taleo when they created SMB versions under the same brand. Both of those died. iCIMS small business died. And then the Taleo brands for the SMB died as well, because they were altogether really not siloed enough. Jobvite at this point has an organic lead machine with JazzHR. So I like what they're doing.
Joel (21m 19s):
Yeah. Yeah. And by the way, we mentioned Dan Finnegan in the shout-outs and you know, this was not sort of an overnight thing. I would go back to Dan Finnegan, you know, buying up Canvas and some others that this road has been formulating for a long time. So it's kind of cool to see it come to fruition, going way back to when Finnegan was running the show.
Chad (21m 18s):
Yup. Fun to watch.
Joel (21m 37s):
All right. Let's take a quick break. We are rolling on this episode and we'll talk a little bit about jeez PPC costs and lawsuits. All right, Chad, none of this will surprise you, but it continually is depressing. So some interesting data came out recently, our friend, Roy Mauer reported at Shrm that the candidate drop-off rate for people who click apply, but never complete an application is a whopping 92%.
sfx (22m 18s):
Doesn't anyone notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!
Joel (22m 19s):
According to programmatic solution app cast, it turns out job application flow has improved, but there's still too many steps involved in getting applicants to the finish line. Where have we heard this one before? Again, none of this is breaking news, but it also piggybacks nicely on another study that says cost per click on job applications has risen by 54%.
Chad (22m 49s):
Joel (22m 50s):
This data also comes from our friends at app cast who examined 165 million job ad clicks and 8 million applies spend over 50% more to see 90 plus percent of job seekers that click apply to go bye bye. Chad what's that definition of insanity again?
Chad (23m 8s):
Yeah. So here's the thing. And I got to point this out, cause you got suckered big time by Home Depot. Seriously, so you thought they grasped the brass ring with a chincy 24 hour offer, right? You fell for their marketing hype bro because Home Depot's application process is shit. And if you can't get the people to apply, guess what? You can't get them the fucking offer. So you got suckered on that one. Anyways, this is not, I repeat, this is not the fault of most tech stacks that are out there. This is an HR and TA department issue. They're known to the real world and it's kicking them square in the nuts.
Chad (23m 50s):
So this, as you, as you had actually said, this high rate of ejection is costing them more on the programmatic side of the house. So if you just got your fucking house in order and you made it easy for people to give you the information that you need, not that you want that take them through 5 to 30 minutes of an application process, then you wouldn't have to spend so much on PPC, right? You wouldn't have to spend as much on, on pay-per-click, on, you know, paper application, any of that shit. So, you know, this to me is again, talent acquisition needs to look themselves in the eyes, in the mirror and say, look, we fucked up our application process, which means it's costing us an arm and a fucking leg.
Joel (24m 37s):
Sure. And just clicks, not even the missed opportunities to hire people that could really impact your organization. So these aren't clicks to see job descriptions, by the way, these are people that are actually clicking apply. So there's a desire to like make a transaction here. These are people that want to finish the process. So this study to me helps confirm the fact that the process is obviously broken. I think a lot of it falls on the ATS in most of these cases. Now I agree that customers of ATSs have really created complexities that don't need to be there. And I think ATS has have been, I don't know, weak in terms of pushing back on companies to make things easier.
Joel (25m 24s):
They're more interested in keeping retention and keeping companies writing them checks. But ultimately like to me that there's no shock that companies looking to disrupt that system are gaining some steam in contrast to the ATS industrial complex. You have companies like Paradox who are touting application completion rates in the 90 percentiles.
Chad (25m 43s):
Joel (25m 43s):
Right. So there, there seems to be an obvious divide here. It's either drop off of 90% or completion of 90%, which one would you rather be involved with? So to me, like, you know, chat bots continue to be the biggest threat to the traditional ATS infrastructure just for that reason. And it looks like it's being more and more supported by data every day. So it's really, is it just a matter of time before companies realize let's stop just spending money to try to figure out the problem and let's just make the process more organic. And it seems like chat bots are the, on the front line of making that happen.
Chad (26m 23s):
Yeah. That's process and engagement right? Entirely. And if you are dealing with a new, let's say for instance, core talent platform. I mean, Paradox is, is evolving from a conversational AI platform to a core talent platform. And we're going to see many others, like we even heard Anoop say that he's not going to do that. I call bullshit. I see SeekOut doing the exact same thing because they can actually get more applications through at a much higher rate, which means a couple of different things. First and foremost, you can leverage the candidates you've already paid for. Yeah. Remember those, the millions of dollars you spent for those assholes. Yeah. You can go after them first, who were in your candidate database, then number two, at that point, if your process is better and you're getting higher completion, then guess what?
Chad (27m 11s):
You don't have to spend as much money on trying to drag people in right now, talent acquisition should be smacked square in the face, fired, whatever it might, whatever it takes to be able to get their shit straight because it's not right.
Joel (27m 25s):
Amen. Amen. You know, the easier thing is to just spend more money, but it's also the laziest thing that you can do. And I call on companies to really dig into their processes and fix this shit and start saving a lot of money in the process.
Chad (27m 42s):
Well, and I want to point out. These hiring companies can point at programmatic vendors and say, these guys are charging us so much more, 43%, 54% increase from last year. But guess what? Assholes, if you had your shit tight, if your process was tight and you had less ejection, this wouldn't be a problem. You are your own problem. Stop pointing fingers.
Joel (28m 3s):
By the way, what's the over-under on number of years that you keep bringing up the Home Depot, I'm going to go three years, three and a half years over/under.
Chad (28m 11s):
You. Give me way too much credit. I don't have that much brain power to remember that shit.
Joel (28m 15s):
Yeah. Once you go to Portugal, you're going to be checked out on all this shit, which is coming soon. Apparently. Well, someone else who's going to be spending a lot of money it sounds like is our friends at HireVue? This one's a little old, a couple months old, I think, but it's not like there was a press release on this stuff. So video interviewing platform, HireVue faces a proposed class action lawsuit over its alleged practice of collecting job applicants biometric information, without first providing statutory disclosures and obtaining informed consent.
sfx (29m 0s):
Joel (29m 1s):
Listeners will remember Illinois outlawed this practice. The law provides for statutory damages of 5,000 for each willful and or reckless violation, and alternatively damages of $1,000 for each negligent violation. The plaintiff applied for a job with Varsity Tutors through HireVue's platform in 2019, per the case HireVue violated the plaintiff's quote, "substantive state rights to biometric information privacy" end quote.
Chad (29m 34s):
Joel (29m 35s):
This one could really cost. Chad thoughts.
Chad (29m 40s):
So HireVue has a new slogan, "HireVue, the ultimate bias machine." So this one's from classaction.org quote, "HireVue has allegedly represented that facial expressions make up 29% of the job applicants, employability score" end quote. I find this completely fucking repulsive to think that an algorithm could standardize the entire human race through facial movements is fucking absurd. This to me is, again, an ultimate bias machine. Federal government really needs to step in because if you don't live in Illinois, if you're not a resident of Illinois, you are not going to be able, I don't believe you're going to be able to actually partake in this suit.