Hiring, We Have a Problem: AI
- Joel Cheesman
- May 15
- 50 min read
This week, the Mo and Joel deliver a light-hearted yet deeply substantive look into the massive worker backlash against artificial intelligence and the brutal realities of today's hiring market. The hosts kick things off with quick hits covering a disastrous, heavily booed commencement speech at the University of Central Florida and a surprising take on the narrative depth of The Devil Wears Prada 2.
From there, the conversation tackles major industry shifts as massive job platforms like Upwork and ZipRecruiter face severe financial softening, sparking a debate on whether automation is permanently consuming traditional contractor roles. The gloves come off as they dissect a bold claim from Andreessen Horowitz labeling legacy HR software giants like Workday a "cartel," while analyzing how defensive tech acquisitions—such as Ashby buying Talent Llama—signal a broader software-as-a-service apocalypse.
Mo offers her expertise on age discrimination, discussing a lawsuit against Bloomberg Industry Group. The discussion moves to the backlash against automated hiring tools and LinkedIn’s new paid consultation feature. Finally, there is a disagreement over Google's new Gemini-powered smart glasses.
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION
Joel Cheesman (00:29.181)
yeah. Get crazy with the cheese whiz. Hey boys and girls, it's the Chad and cheese podcast. I'm your cohost Joel operations, sledgehammer cheeseman.
Maureen Clough (00:41.472)
And I'm your co-host Maureen, AKA Mo. What in the 2020 is going on right now, Wiley Clough?
Joel Cheesman (00:47.223)
Hey Mo on this episode of HR's Most Dangerous Podcast, AI's Image Problem, Workday's Cartel Problem, and Mo's Smart Glasses Problem. Let's do this!
Maureen Clough (00:58.572)
God, never, never. You will never catch me those. Over my dead body. Over my dead body. How you doing? It's so nice to see you. Just us girls. I love it. It's been a while.
Joel Cheesman (01:04.157)
You
What's up Mo? Just us girls today. Just us girls today. Emmy's in Brazil, Chad's eating fish and chips and mushy peas in London and JT's, you know, don't know, running through the woods in Vermont or wherever the hell she is today. And Leaven's in a tree house off the hag or something. I don't know. So it's just...
Maureen Clough (01:18.646)
Ooh, ugh, not selling that. Yeah.
Maureen Clough (01:26.99)
Still celebrating her birthday maybe. Yeah.
Maureen Clough (01:35.278)
Just us. You know, I'm hanging in there. I'm trying not to read too many headlines. I'm trying not to like let the PTSD take over, you know? Yeah, things be happening. Things be happening out there. It's stuff that none of us want. Yeah, I'm trying real hard. I'm trying real hard. I'm turning it on for you.
Joel Cheesman (01:35.941)
It's just us this week. How you doing? Quick check in state of Mo what's going on.
Joel Cheesman (01:46.887)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (01:51.237)
I don't buy your happiness. don't.
Joel Cheesman (01:58.951)
So something made me happy story wise this week was that in California, leave it to California. They're going to start apparently giving tickets to Waymo's and Zook's automated driverless cars. I think that's hilarious because how are you going to like robot? They don't vote. So they're not going to vote against tickets. They can't really fight a ticket. They can't show up in court.
Maureen Clough (02:11.47)
It's only fair. I do too.
Yeah, right? They show up in court. Yeah, they're like robot in court.
Joel Cheesman (02:28.869)
I mean, this it's such a moneymaker for municipalities and states to just like start writing tickets to these big tech like, it's hilarious. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it'll be like when Uber said, all right, we're out of this city because you're going to make it regulations. And then eventually they, they make nice and okay, well, we need you here. And so there'll be a balance of.
Maureen Clough (02:33.65)
yeah.
They should, they 100 % should. That could be the way to tax the billionaires actually. Like that's the legit way to do it. Let's go.
Maureen Clough (02:51.863)
Right.
Joel Cheesman (02:58.161)
How much can we ticket away mo before Google says we're out of here? And there'll be like a nice balance and, and government will print money on these things. So instead of taxing them directly, we're just going to tax your, your cars and robots will come soon thereafter. I'm sure.
Maureen Clough (03:02.496)
Right?
Maureen Clough (03:06.668)
They they will.
Maureen Clough (03:11.33)
I 100%, but I think that might be the move for them because people like, didn't Sergey Brin just say like, hey, I'm bouncing out of California because of this tax stuff. wasn't it him who just said that? Am I making that up? Some billionaires be bouncing. Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (03:23.515)
Yes, there's certainly, this is great. This is a big trend now. It started with California, so either Texas or Florida, a lot of them started to move back, but I think there's a good amount are staying in Florida. And then in New York, you probably saw that Mondami, the mayor went on social media and said, hey, look up there. And I think it was a really rich guy that's famous.
Maureen Clough (03:39.459)
Yeah.
Maureen Clough (03:42.883)
yeah, yeah, That video was fire.
Maureen Clough (03:51.404)
Yeah, I can't remember the name. Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (03:51.805)
He lives there and it's the second home and he paid $300 million for it or whatever, and we're going to tax him. So New Yorkers are probably going to have a big thing about rich New Yorkers moving out of New York and then moving back. I, I, I feel like if, if governments are going to raise taxes on the wealthy, that's probably the way to do it is if you have a luxury item, like a second home and you've paid, I think it's whatever it is, a million or
Maureen Clough (03:57.101)
Yep.
Maureen Clough (04:03.542)
Right?
Maureen Clough (04:15.32)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (04:20.918)
million more for it, you're going to get dinged for it. And a lot of people that are rich won't give a shit.
Maureen Clough (04:21.312)
Mm. yeah, way more.
Maureen Clough (04:27.502)
I mean, they won't even notice it in their bank account. It's like, come on. I mean, I feel like it was Jensen Huang from NVIDIA who was like, dude, yeah, tax me. I'm cool with that. He did a video and he's like, yeah, I'm all about paying taxes. I love my country and I want to help out. And if we're not going to move because of tax situations, like it's all good. I was like, why can't that be literally every billionaire's response? And it's like the narcissism and the sociopathy. Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (04:46.983)
And I think it's for the good of.
And well, think it helps billionaires. I mean, when you have Molotov cocktails being thrown at Sam Altman's house and literally CEOs getting shot in the streets, like they might be really open to, yeah, we'll pay some tax if it means we're not going to have the pitchforks show up at my front door. That might be a good thing for billionaires as well as a good thing for the rest of us. I don't know. That's right. I'm chill with this.
Maureen Clough (04:57.366)
Right? Read the room. That's true.
Maureen Clough (05:09.4)
Right?
It's a good move, right? Like, Johnson's on to something, being like, yeah, I'm chill with this. We'll see what happens. Yeah, that's true. That's true. We'll hope for more.
Joel Cheesman (05:19.515)
And he's not the only one. lot of, mean, yeah. All right. Let's get to shout out. Shall we?
Maureen Clough (05:29.621)
You
Joel Cheesman (05:30.307)
I will go first. So Mo, the kids apparently have a little issue with AI. We talked about on the show a couple of weeks ago that kids aren't that hip to AI. And I mentioned it's bad for the environment. Kids usually like the environment. It's a technology that's going to take their jobs away. Kids usually like jobs. And kids are usually the most creative among us. And AI is doing all the creating now. So it's like,
Maureen Clough (05:36.568)
Mmm.
Maureen Clough (05:47.022)
Turns out, mm-hmm. Like, what's to like for them, right?
Mm.
Joel Cheesman (06:00.197)
Of course kids don't like this shit, but it's one thing to read it in a headline. It's another thing to actually see it in the real world. So my shout out goes to the university of central Florida. you probably saw this and a lot of other people probably did. so this is from, the commencement speech and I'll talk a little bit about who was in it and everything, but I think, I think the video kind of speaks for itself. Check it out.
Maureen Clough (06:08.278)
Ha ha ha!
Maureen Clough (06:13.587)
yeah.
Maureen Clough (06:23.022)
It's brilliant.
Maureen Clough (06:40.212)
What happened?
Joel Cheesman (07:01.895)
Ha ha ha!
Maureen Clough (07:10.284)
I mean, fail. Yeah, totally.
Joel Cheesman (07:12.573)
crack cracks me up poor. So that was Gloria Caulfield. She's VP of strategic Alliance for some company called Dava stock development. I'm sure had no idea what she was walking into I kind of feel a little bit bad for she probably put that speech into chat GPT and came up with that with all that.
Maureen Clough (07:21.688)
Ha
Maureen Clough (07:27.726)
And it's like, this is the best speech I've ever heard in my life. You should definitely deliver this. Yeah, exactly.
Joel Cheesman (07:32.251)
Yeah. The kids will love this. Trust us. And, and so this was the, she talked to the college of arts at UCF and humanities, well as the Nicholson school of communication. So she was talking to an audience that is being impacted by AI for sure. I'm fascinated by this because throughout my whole life, when there's been a new technology, cable TV, the Walkman.
Maureen Clough (07:41.72)
Like.
Maureen Clough (07:45.496)
Too good.
Joel Cheesman (08:01.309)
CDs and DVDs, email, digital cameras, iPods, like the young people embrace it. It's either cheaper way, more efficient way to do things. And this is, I think the first time in my life that a new technology is here and the kids are pushing back against it. And I don't really know what to think about it. Maybe you can help me.
Maureen Clough (08:19.02)
Yeah. Well, those things weren't freaking taking their jobs and draining their brains of all gray matter. I mean, this is they're afraid of getting stupider with good reason, because that's what AI does to us. And they're afraid that it's replacing entry level jobs, which it is more than any other type of job. like, and especially when you're talking to a group of students in the arts and humanities where we are actively like taking away resources as a country from those areas.
Joel Cheesman (08:30.652)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Clough (08:47.808)
and we're downplaying the importance of these aspects of our society. Like, how did you not think it wasn't going to land this way? Like, I just, you have to know your audience. You are the freaking keynote speaker. Like, to me, there's just no excuse to come in there and deliver that speech to that group of people and not expect that response or maybe even worse. I'm just like, come on, man. Like, read the room, have some thought.
Joel Cheesman (08:47.856)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (09:05.755)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (09:09.223)
Yeah.
Yeah. thing on this, I don't know if this is a bigger deal and where you are in the Northwest, but here in the Midwest data centers, huge issue. We have a lot of land, a lot of rural folks. These companies promised to come in and spend a lot of money and provide jobs and, people are pushing back on these data, which is why we're talking about data centers in space, like full on sci-fi.
Maureen Clough (09:20.719)
God. Yes. Big issue here, Yep.
Maureen Clough (09:29.218)
jobs.
Maureen Clough (09:32.92)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yes. What the hell? It really does. It really does. And the data center thing is really interesting. We have to meet. I mean, the data center thing is huge. We're going to push back in Seattle too. There's just all this emphasis on getting these things out of here because they suck the environment dry. They are marginalized communities. They're mostly dealing with the brunt of this. I mean, it's like kind of
Joel Cheesman (09:36.797)
So yeah, AI has some serious problems that need to be worked out.
Joel Cheesman (09:56.625)
Yeah.
Maureen Clough (10:01.646)
Aaron Brockovich type shit, right? Like that's what we're talking about here is this stuff is like actively harming the communities around them. And there's a one woman, I don't recall her name, but she's in Georgia. And I guess Georgia is now doing eminent domain. So they're actually literally taking over the homes of people who happen to live near these data centers where they need to double down on the electrical output and all that. And it's like her videos on TikTok were going viral. And then I guess they got pulled down because
Joel Cheesman (10:08.167)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (10:24.828)
Yeah.
Maureen Clough (10:30.666)
You know, TikTok owned by, you know, Larry Ellison, not a huge fan of this sort of constant getting out, advising people as to what the hell is actually happening. So, I mean, there's a lot of pushback and with extremely good reason. And I think it does. This is like one of those things that like brings all the generations together. Like no one wants this. Nobody wants this except for eight billionaires who want to be trillionaires. That's what's going on.
Joel Cheesman (10:33.757)
huh.
Joel Cheesman (10:46.706)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (10:53.725)
The eminent domain is interesting. The story of the Luddites, you don't really have to know the history, but basically some folks got upset about new technology and started destroying the machines that were putting them out of work. Eventually the government made it a serious crime to destroy these machines. You have this push and pull with the government and the government so far is siding with the AI. We'll see how that turns out.
Maureen Clough (11:15.842)
Yep.
Maureen Clough (11:22.456)
yeah, they are. Very much so, very much so. Good times. Well, I got something considerably lighter. Considerably lighter, although does involve AI, because what the hell doesn't these days. I want everybody, this is required viewing, especially for Gen Xers and millennials, you need to go out and see the Devil Wears Prada 2. And I am the first to admit that sequels usually suck, but this one, this one is an important thing to watch because...
Joel Cheesman (11:25.713)
What you got for us in shout outs?
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (11:42.429)
Yeah.
Maureen Clough (11:48.939)
it takes you, first of all, as someone who came of age alongside Andy Sachs and literally started a job in New York City right out of college and wanted to be a journalist and all this, I feel like I grew up with this woman, right? And all these characters, the Miranda Priestly, Glenn Close, I mean, not Glenn Close, sorry, what's her name? Meryl Streep, Meryl Streep and Anne Hathaway, Stanley Tucci, all of them.
Joel Cheesman (12:05.583)
Anne Hathaway? Yeah.
Maureen Clough (12:10.072)
But like they managed to do an important movie, believe it or not, not just some frivolous stupid thing. They actually took us to the present day and they showed what had happened to these people over the course of literally two decades and how their careers had evolved. And they really shine a light on the importance of journalism and they shine a light on what's going on with AI and how it's decimating human creativity and what it's doing, mass layoffs and all this.
Joel Cheesman (12:23.089)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (12:28.113)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Clough (12:36.128)
It's so on the nose. It's like deeply cathartic to watch. It's also really beautiful and funny. But it was for me, like I literally cried Joel watching it because I was like, this is just so resonant like this. You see like the hopes and the dreams that these people have and like how so many of them did not pan out the way that they were envisioning and the different things they have to contend with in the workplace and like the interpersonal dynamics and the intergenerational dynamics and like.
Joel Cheesman (12:40.861)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Clough (13:00.974)
There's some great scenes where like Miranda Priestly is in the room with a bunch of Gen Zers and they're like, yo dude, you cannot say that. You're gonna get canceled all the time. And she's like, what? And it's just, anyway, I think it's a great film and I really think everybody should go see it.
Joel Cheesman (13:09.276)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (13:16.103)
So you won't ruin it. And I probably won't watch it until my wife makes me watch it on streaming. But so I did see the first one. I enjoyed it. I think that the characters were great. you're so this is the same story 20 years forward. Is the Glenn Close care, forgive my, forgive my ignorance. Is she still it's Vogue, it's Vogue, right? Vogue, she's editor of Vogue.
Maureen Clough (13:20.27)
You're like, I'm never watching this shit.
Yeah, so good.
Maureen Clough (13:33.069)
Yep. Mm-hmm. In the modern day. Meryl Streep. Yeah. It's Vogue. So she's Runway. Runway is the fictional Vogue-esque magazine for which she works. Yeah. And they talk about the decline of the publishing industry and the way AI is coming in. They have a tech titan character who's brilliantly played by Justin Theroux, who is unrecognizable. literally could, like they did such a good job making him look awful. But it was an excellent, like I just,
Joel Cheesman (13:44.185)
Okay, it's okay.
Joel Cheesman (13:59.665)
Yeah.
Maureen Clough (14:02.636)
I don't know, I can't say enough about it and some people panned it, to hell with them. Go see it everybody, it's really good. Cathartic watch. Yeah. bless you, I'll pay you later. I will pay you later, man.
Joel Cheesman (14:07.279)
Okay. Are our our Anne Hathaway look alike approves of devil wear? And the right the right pair of glasses and Chad sewage is is too cheap. I'm telling you it weak. We we could pull that off. We could pull that off. However, someone who will never be mistaken for Stanley Tucci is our boy, Stephen McGrath.
Maureen Clough (14:21.109)
Hahaha!
That's perfect, that's perfect.
Maureen Clough (14:31.95)
That's probably true.
Joel Cheesman (14:39.069)
Is it playing for you? No, okay. All right, 14 minutes. We'll tag that as not, yeah, as not playing.
Maureen Clough (14:40.694)
No, not yet. I can put it in post. I'm sure Sergey got it. What's up, Sergey?
He's the best.
Joel Cheesman (14:51.225)
All right, let me play.
Maureen Clough (15:02.978)
You can just like insert any.
Joel Cheesman (15:05.649)
Did that play?
Maureen Clough (15:08.75)
I hadn't heard that one.
Joel Cheesman (15:12.357)
Okay, that played for you, but not for me. Interesting.
Maureen Clough (15:15.022)
We got some tech difficulties up in here.
Joel Cheesman (15:17.393)
some Riverside issues. The good news is it's recording for we're hearing each other and we're recording and it's good. So about 14 minutes, Sergey will have to do some of his magic. So
Maureen Clough (15:21.814)
Yeah. Yeah.
Cool. You can just like literally input any of my past reactions to that video where I'm like, my God, my God. He's naked. like, my God.
Joel Cheesman (15:32.869)
Yeah.
Yeah, no doubt, no doubt.
Maureen Clough (15:41.218)
You
Joel Cheesman (15:43.067)
And we mentioned Chad and Emmy are on the road, but...
Maureen Clough (15:48.91)
Woo!
Joel Cheesman (15:49.757)
Where else will we be? Mo, you got any travel coming up?
Maureen Clough (15:53.711)
Man, well, interestingly enough, I was supposed to take a cruise to Alaska next month. Not so sure that's on my agenda anymore given the current news angle, but no, not for work. Not anytime soon, unfortunately.
Joel Cheesman (16:02.485)
boy.
Joel Cheesman (16:08.925)
All right, cool. So if you want to find out where we're going next, just head out to ChadCheese.com. Our travel as always sponsored by our friends at Shaker Recruitment Marketing. Hopefully we'll see everybody out this summer at some point, which brings us to you guessed it. Let's get to topics.
Joel Cheesman (16:31.645)
All right, Mo, in light of an unemployment number that surprised to the upside, if we still believe the numbers, least, Barron's published a story entitled, Not All is Well in the Jobs Market. Just look at Upwork's stock tumble, end quote. Upwork's earnings report revealed a decline in freelance hiring demand due to economic pressures and increased AI adoption by businesses. Upwork also announced layoffs to the tune of 24 % of its staff. Ouch.
Maureen Clough (16:38.154)
No.
Joel Cheesman (17:00.317)
What's more, ZipRecruiter's Q1 revenue dropped 2.3 % to 107.5 million, highlighting again, a soft hiring market. What's more, Workday has been accused of being part of a services cartel, that's in quotes, and in Andreessen Horowitz editorial. Mo Upwork, ZipRecruiter, a Workday cartel, three stooges or just three misunderstood companies and news stories. What's your take on all the industry news?
Maureen Clough (17:16.206)
Such a great quote.
Maureen Clough (17:30.622)
I mean, this world, Like, whew, I gotta say, when it comes to the Upwork consideration, like, there has been such a shift over into the gig economy, right, from white-collar work that's been coming for a while. But what I found interesting about this particular story is that I do think...
despite the fact that they're taking a tumble right there and there's not as much freelance work looking, I think that they're actually just doubling down on sort of the ghost workforce. So you have the Accenture's and the Cognizant's and the data consultancy services of the world and their whole purpose is to staff internally at these corporations. And the reason that this whole industry exists, this ghost workforce, if you will, is...
so that they can make these corporations more money so that they can offset sort of the institutional risk and the cost of retirement plans and the cost of career development and the cost of 401Ks and all, health insurance, big, huge one, right? Onto the individual rather than the institution. So I think that this news to me only exacerbates things for the actual worker because the job is not actually disappearing. They're pretending that of course AI is capable of doing it all.
but the work still exists and it's just shifting into these sort of more contract assignments. So I think there may be less like freelance gig work, like one-off things that you'd get on an up work. But to me, that just suggests that there's even more of a shift into getting these sort of contract roles embedded. And I can't tell you how many people I did an episode on this on my YouTube a few weeks ago. I cannot tell you how many people reached out to me to say, yeah.
Hell yeah, my job, it evaporated and now they're like rehiring for it at a contractor role or I'm getting paid a ton less in a full time capacity, but it's, they're really shifting the labor market to disadvantage the average worker and benefit the institution. So I think that's just another sign of that.
Joel Cheesman (19:08.989)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (19:21.553)
Yeah. Yeah.
Maureen Clough (19:26.894)
You have all the things. That's so good.
Joel Cheesman (19:29.191)
So when AI was first taking off, Upwork's earnings shot up, which I think was a symptom or a reaction to AI being better around matching you with contractors for the jobs that you wanted to fill. And now I feel like AI has come full circle in that so many of the jobs on Upwork and Fiverr's in the same boat are getting AI'd.
I can go through a list of like the top contracting categories. It's like developer, designer, copywriter, just all the things that so many companies saying like, why do we need a logo designer? We can throw it into AI and they'll give us 20 options in seconds for free or virtually free. So I think that's an impossible dynamic for a contractor who does that.
Maureen Clough (19:59.961)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Clough (20:17.101)
Yeah.
Maureen Clough (20:22.733)
Right.
Joel Cheesman (20:29.253)
or has done that professionally to survive. And clearly, clearly if they're doing it, they're not doing it the same premium as they were five, 10 years ago. They're probably taking a huge haircut on their ability to do that. So I think it's one of the easiest short positions you could take in the market is to say that fiber and upwork were going to be challenged in this environment because of AI. Zip Recruiter.
Maureen Clough (20:32.974)
Pretty rough.
Maureen Clough (20:39.406)
with Ryan.
Maureen Clough (20:43.256)
Totally.
Maureen Clough (20:52.844)
I think that's fair. And they're also pushing all those things. They're like getting it 80 % of the way, and then they're going to give the rest of the project to their internal employees who are already there or their contractors that are already there, right? So I agree with you.
Joel Cheesman (21:03.741)
Yeah, it's a good point. Like I can, I can vibe code something 80 % to where it needs to be and then give it to a professional and say, Hey, can you guys, can you guys just button this up and yeah. And finish it for me. So, um, yeah, I think that's an E I saw that from a long mile away. Um, the zipper critter stuff, the stock is kind of bouncing. I'm not totally convinced that that stock is not being manipulated somewhere. Like it's up and down and kooky.
Maureen Clough (21:07.79)
Yeah.
Can you get us the rest of way there? Yeah, totally. It's rough.
Maureen Clough (21:21.421)
Yeah.
Maureen Clough (21:28.074)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (21:31.823)
and it's a, it's basically a penny stock. So the ability to move that stock is not real hard, but anyway, they were, they were more optimistic about the future. So stock is bumping. It's, still 80 % off of its, IPO. So like, don't get too excited about that stock. the workday article was interesting. Andreessen Horowitz, if you don't know Google it, but they are longtime investors. Andreessen was behind Netscape. And to me, this was a.
Maureen Clough (21:34.775)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (22:00.239)
synopsis of the whole SaaSpocalypse issue. It's like you have this SaaS cartel, they call it the Workday cartel or we'll call it that, where you have these really expensive, deeply ingrained software services that are in these companies and canceling those is almost impossible once they get in. And hates these companies. They hate Workday, just like they hate their ATS.
Maureen Clough (22:08.43)
So legit, yeah.
Maureen Clough (22:27.538)
It's so crazy, right? Yep. Just can't quit you. Yeah, exactly.
Joel Cheesman (22:29.425)
They hate them, but they can't leave them. It's like the bad boyfriend, right? That you can't get away from, right? Yeah. So, so coding and like the building SAS easily and replicating what's already out there. this is the whole argument about software is going to be smacked in the face. And it has been over the last year. I guess time will tell if people really do cancel work day and vibe code or
like go buy a cheaper option that someone developed, you know, with a buddy in their basement. But I think it's real threat and that's why you see the stocks of these companies just crater in the last year or so.
Maureen Clough (22:59.95)
Maureen Clough (23:10.986)
man, they are going to fight that tooth and nail though. Think about that whole moat, like you said, with the cartel of services and all those consultants whose entire industry is based on keeping this thing and implemented and ingrained in the company and companies that actually buy Workday. it's like, I mean, that's just such a massive industry in and of itself. Like it is wild to me though, the extent to which these particular sort of ERP systems and those sorts of things, HCMs can like get ingrained in a company and just like
Joel Cheesman (23:37.095)
Yeah.
Maureen Clough (23:39.275)
never come out. And I've seen it in other realms too. Like I worked in at SAP Concur and it was like there were absolutely better solutions on the market and people just like couldn't take it out. It was like impossible to remove. So it will be interesting to see if people are a little bit more capable of doing that now. But yeah, there's so much riding on that not happening like these whole industries, right? So, fascinating.
Joel Cheesman (23:40.274)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (23:50.279)
Yeah. Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (24:00.049)
Yeah. And the, the, the sort of fight for their lives, like let's acquire. And in addition to acquiring AI, let's acquire some revenue. So if, if we can't, if we're, if we're not growing, let's buy companies that we can sort of stack on revenue on revenue on revenue as well as AI. And that seems to be the strategy of a lot of them. We also had, Ashby make an acquisition this week of talent llama. we didn't add it cause there's so much.
Maureen Clough (24:03.715)
Yeah.
Maureen Clough (24:15.384)
Build by partner. Mm-hmm.
Maureen Clough (24:23.255)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (24:29.917)
freaking industry news. But similarly, greenhouse buying Ezra, which we talked about, is another is another attempt to say like, we're going to add this AI thing so that we don't suffer like the big public SaaS companies are. And so Ashby buying llama, the llama, the drama and the llama, I think is part of that strategy to save to save their asses.
Maureen Clough (24:31.735)
You
Maureen Clough (24:50.968)
You
Maureen Clough (24:54.72)
Yep. Gotta save your ass. Gotta do it.
Joel Cheesman (25:02.589)
All right, Mo, here's one in your lane. Heather Bodell, a longtime Bloomberg manager, filed an age discrimination lawsuit against Bloomberg Industry Group. She alleges her career ended after being passed over for a promotion, facing hostility from a new manager, and being placed on a performance improvement plan, AKA PIP. Before being terminated, Bodell claims the company used the PIP in termination.
Maureen Clough (25:03.022)
Maureen Clough (25:13.719)
What?
Maureen Clough (25:25.23)
Yep.
Joel Cheesman (25:30.383)
as pretexts for age discrimination, citing similar treatment of other older employees. Mo, age bias is your specialty. You've even been called a dinosaur from somewhere. What's your take on this ageism story?
Maureen Clough (25:42.318)
Indeed I
It gets late early. was 37 when I was first called a dinosaur. This is so real, man. This is the sort of pretextual pip being placed on for older workers. They'll do anything they can to get the more expensive older workers off the payroll, right? And so this is just one such way they do it. But this particular case is so egregious because this woman, I mean, the indignity that she suffered is insane. So she went for a promotion.
And I guess what they did was they passed her over for someone with a lot less experience, markedly younger. And this is a woman, by the way, Heather, who had apparently done, according to the complaint, allegedly had one of the best products in Bloomberg Law's history. And and by the way, fun fact, this one hits really close to home because yours truly used to work at Bloomberg Law, no joke, in New York City. So it's too funny. I'm like, this is so amazing. Yeah, I don't know if it's a flex so much, but like.
Joel Cheesman (26:32.892)
Look at that flex. Look at that flex. Very nice. Very nice.
Maureen Clough (26:39.982)
I'll just say this doesn't surprise me based on my experiences there. so this woman, she was passed over for promotion and this younger woman got it. And then this younger woman immediately went and made this woman's life hell. Like she called her out of touch. She said, your time is done. Like you're done for your time's up, your time's over. All of this sort of really egregious stuff. And then I guess what happened was this woman, Heather went and reported it to HR. And then like a week later was on a pip and it's like,
I don't know how you can get a much more clear cut retaliation type of case there, but like that's a brazen and a bold move by Bloomberg. all these allegations are true. the comments that I got, so this video I posted on all the socials and it went really pretty far on YouTube. And people were just like, yeah man, seen this. I've been a union rep for so many years. This happened. I got pushed out at 52. Everybody in my comments is like, this could not be more.
on the nose for what happens and across industries people are commenting about this and age discrimination claims are up like 40 % year over year in the last few years according to the EEOC. And so there's a lot more understanding that this is a bias that's super prevalent in the workforce and that there are these tactics that companies use and this is one of them. The PIP is one of them and it's happened at Metta. There's recently a case where a guy was pushed out at like age 53 after being
The recipient of an email from Mark Zuckerberg himself saying like, you're one of our best employees. And then suddenly he's on a PIP and forced out. Like this is something that is continually happening. And so I'm going to be really curious to see what actually ends up occurring with this particular case because it really is something that's super systemic. And this is, you know, all now captured in federal filing. So we'll see, but yeah, not.
not surprised in the slightest to see this type of age bias. It's just like this particular one is so egregious that it's like, how do they think they were gonna get away with this? Like if her allocations are on, like it's nuts. So yeah, I don't know.
Joel Cheesman (28:36.935)
Yeah. How much of this do you think is like cost savings? You get more expensive as you get older and how much is sort of societal real bias and prejudice?
Maureen Clough (28:51.086)
I definitely think it's a blend. what's really important to call it, and I'm glad you asked that question, is that it's not enough for them just merely to be getting people over the age of 40 out of the organization. Like that in and of itself alone, that sometimes is legitimately just like, oh, we need to cut costs. But what's incumbent on the companies to prove when these cases are brought is that they've also tried to get rid of costs in other ways. So if this sort of a situation happens alongside like sustained
Joel Cheesman (28:52.582)
Okay.
Maureen Clough (29:18.144)
or repeated comments about age, as in this case it was allegedly, that can be indicative of like a cultural issue inside the organization that is bias related. But it's just not enough. And that's why, you when these cases get brought, I'm always like, yeah, but then I'm also a side of like, holy shit, I hope this is real because otherwise it has a chilling effect on real ageism because...
Ageism is the most common form of discrimination out there. It's the hardest to actually prove except for in a handful of states and cities where the laws are a little bit like more generous to people, but it is truly the most widespread. And I also believe that it's fascinating in the sense that like people over the age of 40 are technically older workers federally. That's the federal definition. And so I have this perception that essentially like so much age discrimination happens
Joel Cheesman (30:02.641)
Yeah.
Maureen Clough (30:10.286)
for people in millennial and Gen X eras and have just no idea. They're like, we don't know that we're quote old. Like it's a surprise to be like, wait, me older worker, like I think like 65, right? And it's like, no, no, no, actually it could be you. So it's a, you know, culture fit all that there's, there's just, there's a lot going on in there, but you're totally right, Joel. Like it's not always enough. It's not sufficient to prove age bias or ageism to just say like they got rid of all the older people. Cause they often that that often correlates with expensive.
Joel Cheesman (30:26.087)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (30:39.229)
I find it really fascinating from a societal perspective. was, was in Chicago at the RLX recently conference and I was, I ended up sitting at a table with a lot of my peers. Let's call them Gen Xers. And one of them just sort of randomly talked about getting Botox. And I, I asked the question, who else has had Botox at the table? I've never had Botox. I know that's shocking. but no, I, I,
Maureen Clough (30:57.322)
yeah.
Like a dude or a woman.
Yeah, I know you well preserved Joel. This is natural, all natural, all natural.
Joel Cheesman (31:06.645)
This is all, this is all me, baby. This is all me from head to toe, all me. but virtually everyone at the table had had Botox and then men and women. Yeah. Men and women, more, more women, but yeah, men and women. and then they started sort of offering up all the other shit that they've done. Vitamin, whatever, and injection, whatever, and tuck in all this stuff. And so that, that was
Maureen Clough (31:16.876)
Is this men and women at the table, by the way, or just men and women? Wow. Yeah.
Maureen Clough (31:28.333)
Yeah, yeah.
Maureen Clough (31:33.422)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (31:35.887)
Again, I think of myself not as old yet when, when, although I, I probably should, but I definitely oldest in terms of our conversation. But when, when, when I grew up, when I was growing up, you retired at 65, you had a pension and generally you'd live about a decade more, and then you would get cancer or something would happen. You would die like very quickly. And that, that
Maureen Clough (31:38.87)
Right. All this shit though, Joel.
Maureen Clough (31:50.382)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Clough (31:59.023)
Yeah. Yep.
Joel Cheesman (32:05.497)
archetype is going away. Our president is 80 years old. The one before him was 80 whatever. The narrative of like, well, the boomers can't let go of power is creating a lot of, I think, animus between the generations. But you can be productive well into your seventies if your health is there. but historically that never happened.
Maureen Clough (32:09.407)
yeah.
Maureen Clough (32:14.083)
Yeah.
Maureen Clough (32:21.228)
Yeah, there is for sure.
Maureen Clough (32:27.661)
Hell yeah.
Joel Cheesman (32:32.999)
People just assumed, all right, 60, all right, couple more years left, know, coast to the end, and then here's your gold watch and go away. And that cycle was predictable. That cycle was predictable. when historically, okay, it's my turn to lead this thing, that's not happening anymore because so-and-so hit 68 and he's still in charge or she's still, so I totally understand the displeasure.
Maureen Clough (32:33.612)
Right.
Yeah. Out to pasture.
No one can do that anymore. Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (33:02.415)
of everyone in this whole equation because it's changing so rapidly.
Maureen Clough (33:08.726)
It is, but it's interesting too. It really does matter like your level in the organization. Like you expect to see older people on like the C-suite, but when you get down to like individual contributors or middle management and they're older, there's this sort of bias of like, why the hell hasn't she done more or why isn't he higher up the chain? It's like, well, there's supply and demand going on here. So it really differs. And sometimes the most ageist people are bald or like the older people themselves. And they're just, cause they don't see themselves as old. Like we all have this like completely embedded in us, but yeah, there's like,
Joel Cheesman (33:28.466)
Yeah.
Maureen Clough (33:38.159)
a ton of intergenerational warfare. There's a ton to consider when you see that human longevity is changing and that all, no one can freaking retire. No one can afford to retire. It's not the same as it used to be. So yeah, we've got to really sort of retool the way we think about age at work. Obviously that's a huge passion of mine, but yeah, this shit sucks. it's the one thing we all share, right? We're all getting older, so maybe we should stop being such dicks about it.
Joel Cheesman (33:54.459)
Yeah, it's.
Joel Cheesman (33:58.021)
It is fascinating. was.
Joel Cheesman (34:02.909)
It's a blessing to get old. That's the whole goal is to like make it. Yeah. I, I had lunch, I had lunch with my son, my oldest son who just got through with his freshman year, at Indiana. And I just was curious. I was like, are you doing any vibe coding? Like, are you doing anything that I hear all the young kids are up to? And he had no idea what I was talking about. He had no idea what vibe coding was. So, you know, I,
Maureen Clough (34:05.28)
It is honestly, it literally is. It literally is. So yeah. Yeah.
Maureen Clough (34:27.029)
yep. There you go. Look at you.
Joel Cheesman (34:30.517)
I like to think that Gen X is one of the most adaptable generations ever. I mean, we were left to our own devices. We didn't know, are we going to make it home? is anything for dinner? Is mom going to be there? I remember in the nineties, dating girls who wouldn't leave the house without a quarter. Do you know why it's a call? Yes. So yeah, and that's
Maureen Clough (34:35.343)
I'd go with that. You figured it out. Yeah. Lachki kids. Yep. Totally.
Maureen Clough (34:49.447)
to call on a payphone? my gosh. Yeah, wow. That's a throwback.
Joel Cheesman (34:55.677)
Yeah, you had to be adaptable. You had to be lining your feet and like, okay, always be aware of your surroundings. What's going on. I had to use a map up until, you know, GPS and Garmin became a thing. So map quest. Yeah. No, no participation trophies, uh, in this kids and this kids trophy trophy. All right, guys, let's take a quick break. Uh, great conversation and we'll talk a little bit more about, uh, that AI stuff.
Maureen Clough (34:56.523)
Maureen Clough (35:05.132)
MapQuest, MapQuest printed out directions, remember that? my gosh. Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.
Maureen Clough (35:23.694)
AI stuff. Can't get away from that AI stuff, can we?
Joel Cheesman (35:31.133)
I have no idea. Did that transition play for you? Oh, it did. Okay. I'm just going to assume all these soundbites play for you. I don't know if they'll be in the final production of this. Anyway, all right, Mo. UCF highlighted the complicated relationship young people have with AI, but it turns out they are not alone. Research from CV Library reveals that over a third of recruiters believe AI tools are causing them to miss strong candidates.
Maureen Clough (35:34.06)
It did.
Tech for the win.
Maureen Clough (35:40.589)
good.
Maureen Clough (35:51.086)
No.
Joel Cheesman (35:58.673)
While AI is used to manage high volumes of applications, it struggles with assessing cultural fit and soft skills. And a greenhouse survey said 63 % of job seekers have faced an AI interview, but most of them have yet to have a good experience while 38 % of candidates have walked away from a hiring process because it included an AI interview and another 12 % said they would leave.
Maureen Clough (35:59.311)
Hmm.
Maureen Clough (36:06.062)
So do humans.
Joel Cheesman (36:25.115)
A growing number of employers and job seekers seem to be souring on AI hiring Mo. What's your take?
Maureen Clough (36:33.39)
I mean, man, I think this is a really tough one because I feel for everybody involved. Like I feel for the recruiters who have like eight billion resumes being thrown at them and needing to sift through them. Like I can understand needing some sort of a tool, right? I understand the frustration of like the black hole of job applications going in and being like, a robot looking at this? Like, but I will say like, is a human looking at it necessarily that much better? Like we all have our own biases and we all come to the table with like our vision of what a cult.
culture fit looks like, right? But it's like the scale aspect of this that I think is really challenging. But I can tell you, like, even when I was interviewing, was, I oh, it was 2020. That's right. It's 2020. And I was interviewing and it was a remote interview, obviously. And I remember being peeved out and like, like, what the hell's going on when he literally, this guy was interviewing me, hit record on the interview. And I was like, what are you doing with this record? Like, oh, you share like my conversation with you somewhere else.
And that was unnerving. like times 25 billion when you think about sitting down with a literal robot that's like, and you know, there is, there's these cues that we have as humans, like we can, we can, you know, infer what someone else is thinking or feeling, or if you're on the right track and like, you cannot do that with a robot, that's impossible. So I think it just, it's disempowering. It's like, it's tough enough to just be in the job market in the first place right now. Like people are really struggling.
And then to have like that level of like opacity when it comes to like the whole process, it just is, I think, deeply infuriating for people. just, you just don't have any sense of how it's going. You don't know if anyone's gonna look at it. You don't know if it's being filtered out. You know, we obviously know about the eightfold and the workday cases about filtering out applications. There's a precedence for this, like the EEOC has sued companies for actually literally filtering out candidate info. I mean, that article we read about
Joel Cheesman (38:14.78)
Yeah.
Maureen Clough (38:28.588)
what's going on with AI and candidates. mean, a lot of people, think it's 30 something, 37 % maybe, said that they think that their age is a factor when it comes to AI applications. But they also said that that's the case with humans. you know, we program the AI. So of course, it's going to have our biases. I think, for me, the big question is like, how do companies demonstrate that they are actually looking at what's happening in their AI and ensuring that they remove the bias from it? And I think that's
Joel Cheesman (38:41.489)
Yeah.
Maureen Clough (38:55.842)
That's the clutch part. Like can companies actually prove that they're doing that and make people feel comfortable and confident with the process? But yeah, some people are just never gonna love like getting on a call with a robot. I think I would call myself one of them. But like, I also think we kind of have to recognize like this is the way it's moving. And you you gotta try and get a little bit more comfortable with it even if it sucks. Yeah. Right?
Joel Cheesman (39:00.295)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (39:17.469)
Yeah, yeah, I appreciate that.
Maureen Clough (39:23.182)
I mean, what are you-
Joel Cheesman (39:24.953)
So I mentioned girls in the 90s and their quarters. I had a girl that I dated in the 90s right around the internet when the internet hit who loved Target. Loved shopping at Target, spending the day at Target, coffee at Target, icee's at Target, just loved going and shopping at Target. Target, yeah, Target card carrying fan base of Target.
Maureen Clough (39:45.986)
Wow, real target Stan. Damn.
He
Joel Cheesman (39:53.053)
And when the internet came out and Amazon and everything, was like, man, this is the future. We're going to order stuff. It's going to show up at our door. We don't have to drive there. We don't have to deal with parking and crowds and rude salespeople like this. I'm down with this. She was not, uh, history proved me right. Uh, if you would have had a chance to buy Target stock or Amazon stock, I think you probably would won with Amazon stock. So the Amazon came or the internet came for Target.
Maureen Clough (40:07.182)
Mmm.
Maureen Clough (40:17.838)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (40:23.855)
AI is coming for hiring. empathize with job seekers who hate it. I empathize with recruiters that are like, we're missing candidates or things are falling through the cracks, but I'm here to say, get over it. This is the future. Company, like it's too efficient. It's too cost effective to not do it for companies to go back to human beings and the way it was. Now the tech will get better.
Maureen Clough (40:38.638)
8.
Maureen Clough (40:50.134)
It's not changing, yeah.
Joel Cheesman (40:52.133)
It will be more human. It may even be more, more kind, more empathetic itself, because it doesn't get tired. It doesn't get, it doesn't have a bad day. doesn't have a three year old, you know, puke on the kitchen floor. doesn't have a,
Maureen Clough (40:57.784)
What a thought.
Maureen Clough (41:05.656)
Well, and you can't be like, this candidate reminds me of my ex-boyfriend, I therefore hate this candidate. You know, like that sort of thing, right? Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (41:09.117)
correct. It doesn't have a fight with their spouse that morning of like you might find that it's, better in some ways than a human. So, so I, I'm just here to say, I get it. I appreciate it, but I don't think things are changing. Now I do think there will, there will be a point where companies find it as a branding exercise to say, we're going to have real humans because that's our brand. Like it's like, you don't go like if, if I, if you ever were to go to an in and out,
Maureen Clough (41:16.152)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Clough (41:20.459)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Clough (41:32.354)
That's our secret sauce, our special sauce. Yeah, yeah.
Joel Cheesman (41:38.161)
and have a kiosk, think you'd be done. That would be so antithetical to their brand that there's no way that they would do that. I mean, I'll be the first to I was wrong if they do it.
Maureen Clough (41:42.254)
Hmph.
Maureen Clough (41:46.626)
Yeah. I mean, you had to work in that fast food reference. I love it. You are dedicated. Love it. No, you're totally right.
Joel Cheesman (41:52.059)
Well, yeah, it is lunchtime where I am. so I could see a company saying, look, we're a luxury company or we're a high tech or whatever it is. Our art. Yes. Our brand is like we're Rolex or we are whoever. And you're not, we're not going to let you get interviewed by a robot. You're going to interview with an actual human being, you know, flesh and blood. I think that will happen. I don't know who will be the one to do that, but that will be a brand. But for the most, for most companies,
Maureen Clough (42:00.451)
Yeah. White glove is human now. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, we're the Rolex of hiring.
Yeah.
Maureen Clough (42:20.438)
I
Joel Cheesman (42:21.327)
AI is too cost effective. It's improving too rapidly for them to go back to the way that it was.
Maureen Clough (42:27.212)
Well, it offers a really good opportunity for the right company to come in and be like, hey, we are going to be the leader in like not being shitty at this. Like we are going to figure out how to ensure that there's no bias baked into this. We're going to make people feel more comfortable. Like there could be someone who comes in and does this really super well and makes people feel comfortable on both sides. And like, that's a big opportunity.
Joel Cheesman (42:43.676)
Yep.
Maureen Clough (42:48.29)
I can't imagine that, I mean, it'll be interesting to see how these lawsuits with like eight full and workday come out and how the implications are for the rest of the whole workplace. But if you can program it in such a way, like hard code it to not be a jerk and like discriminate against people, like that seems like a win. And maybe there's a place for it at the very top of funnel, as long as you know that that discrimination is not gonna take place, right? Like that could be good, but at some point too, you have to get to
Joel Cheesman (42:57.853)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Clough (43:17.526)
a place where you can stack rank and like how do you sort that? And it's probably really different per job, like per role specifically. I mean, yeah, like you Joel, my heart goes out to everybody. This is just like rough times, but hopefully someone's gonna come out with like a best of breed tool that like rocks.
Joel Cheesman (43:33.533)
Yeah, it will. It will get, yeah. Like not all AI is the same. Just like not all, uh, SEO is all these companies say they have SEO or whatever mobile stuff. And obviously they're not all created, uh, the same. we will, we will get to a point where this company is like class a, I, it looks like it sounds like a human. Um, and, and I, we sell these headlines.
Maureen Clough (43:39.371)
Right.
Maureen Clough (43:54.402)
Yeah. Yeah. Right.
Joel Cheesman (44:01.009)
greenhouse buys so and so and Ashby and llama and we're like, okay, but they're not all the same when you actually use them. I'm a full disclosure. I'm an investor in Alex AI who does this kind of thing. And interestingly, a lot of their interviews happen after hours, which you think, which if you think about it makes total sense, right? If I'm employed, I don't want to have an interview during lunch where I'm like rushing through and I've
Maureen Clough (44:21.886)
yeah,
That's actually amazing.
Maureen Clough (44:29.368)
No.
Joel Cheesman (44:30.759)
deal with my day. So to have an opportunity where I can, it dinners over, I'm relaxed, the kids are in bed, like now I want to have an interview, but the traditional way of doing it, that doesn't happen. So it's interesting the data that they're starting to get of the number of people that are doing it at their convenience versus when the company says we need to talk, you know, at this certain time.
Maureen Clough (44:37.262)
Totally.
Maureen Clough (44:42.22)
Yeah.
Maureen Clough (44:51.384)
Totally. That's the best use case I've heard yet. That totally makes sense, right? It opens up access to more people to get their applications in and do so in a way that works for them and doesn't like put their current employment at risk, right? So that's solid. I love it. Try to make some sense.
Joel Cheesman (45:04.103)
We're here to make sense on the chat and cheese podcast, everybody. And speaking of sense, let's talk a little LinkedIn. Power users can soon get paid to give advice. This month users, users with a LinkedIn business account will be able to offer one-on-one consultation sessions from their profiles. Users will be able to manage bookings, take payments and host video calls directly.
Maureen Clough (45:12.564)
love, love.
Maureen Clough (45:17.39)
You
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (45:30.449)
from LinkedIn, it will be rolling out to premium business subscribers in the US this month. Making money with LinkedIn, Mo, your thoughts.
Maureen Clough (45:39.791)
I mean, I read a comment on this article that cracked me up. It was like, we are just like scaling insufferability. And I died laughing. I was like, that's incredible. Like everybody is an expert. Everybody's a guru. You know, how much is LinkedIn? I didn't read how much they're taken as a cut off this little platform play. And I'm assuming they're going to take a cut.
Joel Cheesman (46:00.839)
So it's sort of up to the user of what they want to charge. I'm sure, well, I don't know if LinkedIn takes a cut or not. It's probably fairly.
Maureen Clough (46:04.974)
Okay, and then they take a percentage off the top.
Maybe they actually give it to you for paying for premium, who knows? But yeah, it's like.
Joel Cheesman (46:13.489)
Well, it is an incentive to upgrade if you do think this is a money making opportunity.
Maureen Clough (46:16.66)
Right? That is... And I just, I question whether it is or not. mean, listen, I love convenience. I love one stop shopping. I guess if you're gonna do this, if you're gonna be the LinkedIn advisor person, like sure, it's cool that people can just find you there and book you from that moment. But like, there are so many other solutions that do that. I don't know if that means if they do implement this, and they are obviously they're implementing it, but are they then going to like...
Joel Cheesman (46:33.49)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (46:40.871)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen Clough (46:42.802)
de-centrified or they're gonna like downplay the roles or excuse me, profiles of people who have like external links because they wanna keep people on the platform doing this. Like I see it going in that direction which just like sucks for people who don't wanna pay for premium and still wanna run their business especially if LinkedIn eventually ends up taking a cut of whatever proceeds that you get from this like ask my advice thing. I don't know, I just think sure like.
Joel Cheesman (46:50.62)
Yeah.
Maureen Clough (47:09.11)
I guess that's good to help people make money, but this is allegedly to help quote unquote solopreneurs. And what I got to say to LinkedIn is, dude, you got to do better than this. If you are a solopreneur or you're someone who's like trying to go out and make a little side hustle, which is like so much of the workforce now, what like 40 % I think was the stat we read recently. And one of our articles about that people who already have some sort of form of alternate income aside from their day job, dude, you cannot block companies or people on LinkedIn from your posts.
Joel Cheesman (47:37.991)
Yeah.
Maureen Clough (47:38.159)
So like literally when I started my podcast about ageism in the tech industry, while I was currently employed at a tech company where basically a fetus was running the company, I was like, this is not gonna be great for me. Like this look is not good. And sure enough, I had to put it out there. My boss thought, oh, you're doing this podcast about ageism workplace. I'm like, yep, nothing to see here, nothing to see. And what do you know? I was in a layoff of one a month later. So like that was a hundred percent related.
Joel Cheesman (47:59.015)
haha
Maureen Clough (48:06.68)
to me having to be public on LinkedIn about what I was doing. So what they need to do, and I have railed against this, is if you wanna support the new future of work, which is people doing side hustles and having to be public with it, you gotta give us the ability to block certain people, certain companies, and certain types of profiles from viewing our content. Otherwise, it's gonna continue to create this chilling effect on would-be, I mean, podcasters, entrepreneurs, whatever. But you really, you need to look at this situation for what it is,
Joel Cheesman (48:08.829)
Yeah, yeah.
Joel Cheesman (48:23.696)
Interesting.
Joel Cheesman (48:31.207)
Yeah.
Maureen Clough (48:36.472)
full on dangerous for a lot of people to actually be public on LinkedIn with what they're trying to do. Not only that, it's also really fucking embarrassing. Excuse my French, but like it is embarrassing to be like, hey, entire network of people who have known my entire professional life, I'm doing this thing. And that stops people from using it too. So if LinkedIn wants more people to use it, this is what they got to do.
Joel Cheesman (48:43.73)
Interesting.
Joel Cheesman (48:56.829)
So I'm going to differ from you on this a little bit. You're quite bearish on this technology. And if Chad were here, he would tell me that I'm drinking the Kool-Aid like never before. This has been tried before to varying degrees of failure, I think. There was a site called Purple Squirrel back in the day where you could actually buy time with employees at companies. So let's say I want to work at Metta.
Maureen Clough (48:59.222)
by all means.
Maureen Clough (49:06.822)
Hahaha
Joel Cheesman (49:21.725)
I can find someone there and have like a hidden secret conversation of how to get a job at Metta. And can you put in a good word for me? Uh, there was also a company way back in the day, uh, X X like 16 X it was a weird name. It was an Andreessen thing. And it was basically for engineers who get tons of calls from recruiters to be able to say, okay, I'll talk to you, but you're going to have to pay for it. So engineers could say, Hey, here's my link.
Maureen Clough (49:23.982)
You
Maureen Clough (49:48.046)
Mmm.
Joel Cheesman (49:49.391)
sign up and I charge a hundred dollars an hour or whatever it is to talk to you. was correct. But for an engineer, it's like, my God, all these calls. It'd be nice to just send them to this link and say, okay, pay for time. And I'll talk to you. I don't think I know the engineer one isn't around anymore. The purple scroll. I don't know, but we don't hear much about it anymore. I was having a conversation recently, about sort of what,
Maureen Clough (49:53.398)
instead of a coffee chat, pick my brain kind of thing.
Maureen Clough (50:03.202)
Yeah. Don't we.
Joel Cheesman (50:16.135)
that someone asked me what gets you up in the morning, like sort of what is, what's your, what gets you excited about stuff? And I, I came to this conclusion. came to the conclusion that I have, I have sort of left my Luke Skywalker and Han Solo era, and I'm moving into my OB one Kenobi era, meaning I'm do, I'm moving out of the whole, like physically doing a lot of stuff and learning and falling down and all that. And moving into like, I'm this
Maureen Clough (50:22.062)
What's your North Star?
Maureen Clough (50:31.038)
You
Okay.
Joel Cheesman (50:43.193)
All knowing been in the industry for 25 plus years, a person. And then when I see something like this come along, think. Awesome. Because I probably monthly get three to five messages. I'll connect with someone and they'll say, Hey man, love the pod. I just built this thing. Would you mind taking a look at it and telling me what you think? And aside from the fact that I generally don't like people.
Maureen Clough (50:44.568)
wise.
Mmm.
Joel Cheesman (51:13.359)
I don't have a lot of time. I don't have a lot of free time to like give to people I've never met. I've only connected to you, like buy me a drink first for God's sakes. But, but with this, I can say, cool, man, sign up, pay me X and I'll, I'll talk to you. So it's like, they get what they want. They get to talk to me and get my feedback, which I think is valuable and I get money. So I, I'm, I'm down. I'm down. This is.
Maureen Clough (51:15.853)
Right?
Maureen Clough (51:20.622)
100. Yeah, come on.
Maureen Clough (51:27.267)
Yeah.
Maureen Clough (51:35.911)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, I don't want to say I'm not down. Don't get me wrong, because I agree with you on that front. Like, people ask questions all the time, you know, people you've never met before who don't know you from Adam and are like, hey, can I like take your very, very precious time and your all the knowledge that you've accumulated? And a lot of people actually feel entitled to it, which is bizarre to me. But there are...
other mechanisms by which you can get them to pay, they're slightly higher touch. So I don't have a problem necessarily with them doing this, if you will. I just think there are more important things that they can do to help solopreneurs and like people starting things on the side. That's all. So don't get me wrong. Like it's a totally fine service. But I still think, you know, you're going to find some people who are like, I am a self-proclaimed guru of XYZ, you know, who will start doing that. But they're going to do that regardless of whether they have the button or not, you know.
Joel Cheesman (52:09.564)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (52:27.431)
So you're the mom on Mother's Day that says, the rose is nice, a dozen would be even nicer. Happy Mother's Day, by the way, and shout out to all the mothers out there in the world for sure.
Maureen Clough (52:33.614)
Hey, I would take one. thank you. Thank you. No, but you're right, Joel. You're right about that. I actually agree with you too.
Joel Cheesman (52:43.643)
okay, cool. So let's take a quick break and talk about something that we're definitely going to disagree about. Smart glasses.
Maureen Clough (52:51.765)
god.
Joel Cheesman (52:55.313)
All right, Mo, what show between the two of us could possibly pass an opportunity to talk about smart glasses? Google is reviving smart glasses this year with a new generation. You probably remember the Google glasses a decade or so ago. This is an Android Gemini powered regular looking offering that Google is gonna unveil. This is a much ambitious followup, similar to Meta's glasses.
Maureen Clough (53:00.878)
Hahaha!
Maureen Clough (53:11.734)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Maureen Clough (53:16.302)
BWAH!
Joel Cheesman (53:25.073)
That's right. I'm a proud carrying a wearer of the meta glasses. The cost is expected to be around 300 to a thousand dollars depending on your prescription and all kinds of other stuff, bells and whistles. I'm going to guess that you're, you're not real happy about another big tech company launching smart glasses. What are your thoughts?
Maureen Clough (53:30.613)
Maureen Clough (53:50.913)
You would be correct. I mean, don't we live in enough of a surveillance state as it is? Do we really need to put these on the faces of more people? I hate these glasses. I hate them with every fiber of my being. I don't think we need them. I don't think that you need to have an augmented virtual reality in front of your face at all time. But the main reason I hate them is that you can not opt out as the subject being looked at, right? So like increasingly,
Joel Cheesman (54:05.085)
Wow.
Maureen Clough (54:18.99)
People are doing these videos. I see them all over social media and I'm like, how the hell did this creator get this person to talk to them on the street? And then I look and I see the little emblem that says, shot with my meta Ray-Ban glasses. And I'm like, you kidding? Because they didn't know they were being recorded, right? Because you have to see the tiny little light. when you think about the implications for people, all people, also especially women and children, in the society we're in right now, I just don't like it.
at all, like there's no privacy. And you think about where that data is going and what it's being used for and the fact that you just cannot opt out as a human. I know, I know every time you go out into the public arena, like technically people can take pictures of you or whatever, like I know that that's the way it is, but this is just on steroids in a way that I think is deeply alarming and unhelpful for society. So that's where I mean, in the era of Palantir and Big Tech,
Joel Cheesman (55:10.237)
Okay.
Maureen Clough (55:16.362)
and all of this stuff. just think it's a road to know where we want to go.
Joel Cheesman (55:21.891)
And the light coming on doesn't change your mind. If I see a light, so you think, so when you and I, but when you and I hang out next time, whenever and wherever that is, and I'm wearing my Meta-Ray bands, you know that I'm not like recording you as we're talking, right?
Maureen Clough (55:25.76)
Not at all.
unless it's like a huge spotlight.
Maureen Clough (55:38.338)
I'll slap him off your face.
Do I know that? That's the thing. I just don't think the average person, especially when you're caught unawares on the street and someone comes up to you and is like, hey, excuse me, like blah, blah. Like you're not looking at that little dot, right? It's the lack of consent. It's the lack of like clarity and transparency as to where that data is going, where it winds up. All of that makes me deeply uncomfortable. And especially when you layer on like the facial recognition.
Joel Cheesman (55:53.403)
Yeah, I-
Maureen Clough (56:10.582)
And all of that, like, I think we get into real dangerous territory right now. And there was a moment when I was watching one of those videos, I was like, man, that'd be so helpful, like, as a content creator. And I was like, that is not enough reason for us to do this. Like, get your damn phone out and go like this when you're recording someone. So I'm just like, so against it, so against it. But yeah, anyway, I'd love to hear why you're not.
Joel Cheesman (56:26.023)
Yeah. Okay.
Joel Cheesman (56:31.247)
Okay.
Well, so I'll start with this. the internet came for target AI is coming for hiring and smart glasses are coming for your face. If it's not smart glasses, it's going to be an earpiece. It's going to be a little thing you wear. There are necklaces now that do stuff like I, I think that you will see that this is something that becomes normalized eventually. Now I agree with you. People are using this for.
Maureen Clough (56:45.656)
See, I don't think we need that.
Joel Cheesman (57:04.465)
bad purposes, know, like surprising someone on the street and asking them weird questions and then putting that like, that's not cool. And maybe legislation will come out eventually that, Hey, you can file some sort of lawsuit if you're recorded and something is put on, put online. I've been wearing my meds for two, three years now. I'm on version two. I'm personally excited for the displays when I can get my hands on those.
Maureen Clough (57:12.974)
creepy stuff.
Joel Cheesman (57:34.183)
Google's going to launch some Apple will initially launch them. There will be an Apple product with they pair with Prada or some fashion, fashion brand to do this. so, so aside from, I can take pictures like my kid plays soccer football, like to be able to take sort of really quick picture as opposed to, okay, my camera's in my pocket or I got a button right here. Like
Maureen Clough (57:34.83)
Can you walk me through that?
Maureen Clough (57:43.15)
The devil wears Prada.
Joel Cheesman (58:01.243)
much quicker to take a quick shot than it is to pull my camera out or my phone out. Listening to music is convenient. It's nice to like not interfere. So, so would you rather have AirPods listening or just I have music and I don't, I look like I'm paying attention, but there, there are more. So I'll tell you, I'll, I'll give you, I'll give you two instances that are pretty cool. think the first one is the first one is the first one is okay.
Maureen Clough (58:19.022)
Ha!
my god.
Maureen Clough (58:27.278)
Okay, I'll tell you whether I think it's worth surveillance.
Joel Cheesman (58:31.215)
I'm, I'm fifth. I'll be 55 this month. I've been to a lot of rock shows. I'm a kid that had a Walkman put on maximum volume in the eighties and I don't hear. There you go. So I don't hear super well in crowds. If I'm in a bar or pub, it's sometimes hard to hear. So my med is now have an amplifier for audio so I can, I can engage the glasses. And if I'm talking to you in a crowded
Maureen Clough (58:42.04)
You
Joel Cheesman (59:00.175)
a conference room or something that's loud, it will amplify what you're saying to me. So I, as someone who doesn't hear great, it's a nice thing to have that I can now talk to you and not worry about, I hear what she's saying? The look on your face says you're well, okay. Well, there's stigma with that. So I can have a hearing aid basically without having hearing aids in. And as someone who's too proud to wear hearing aids in my fifties, like
Maureen Clough (59:14.382)
What about hearing aids?
Maureen Clough (59:19.704)
true, but we.
Maureen Clough (59:25.464)
Sure, but they're getting smaller and smaller. I hear you. I mean, I'm 43 and my hearing sucks. So I get that. Okay, so, but basically it's convenience. It's convenience for photos. Okay, keep going, keep going.
Joel Cheesman (59:29.623)
That's what I'm going to do. So that's.
Joel Cheesman (59:40.325)
I haven't given you the second thing yet. I got, got, I got a multiple layered pitch here for you. Okay. So the, so the, so the second one is now they have a live translation. So I can engage my glasses. I can be in Paris, Germany, wherever, and you can talk to me in that native language and it will translate it for me and my glasses. That's cool. That's some sci-fi shit. And then I, and then I can use that the meta app on my phone.
Maureen Clough (59:45.482)
Okay, alright, I'm open.
Maureen Clough (01:00:05.77)
Hahaha!
Joel Cheesman (01:00:09.831)
to say what I want to say and it will translate it in words in German or whatever language it is. think if someone else is wearing, so if you had two people wearing smart glasses, you could literally have a conversation in that native language and they're both understanding what they're saying, which I think is where the world is going. So to me, are two things, those are two advances that I think are pretty cool. It may not change your mind.
Maureen Clough (01:00:16.078)
So it hears the person, translates.
Maureen Clough (01:00:33.356)
Okay, I don't disagree that they are pretty cool. However, I do believe that you can take your smartphone out and have like a translated conversation just between you and the other person, like without needing to have the glasses. I hear you, it's cool, it's cool, but it's too like, it's too Terminator-y, it's too like this world like sci-fi and
Joel Cheesman (01:00:37.585)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (01:01:01.501)
Do you agree it's coming no matter what? Whether it's an earpiece or a necklace or jewelry or glasses that we're going to have something smart on our bodies.
Maureen Clough (01:01:03.79)
I don't actually.
Maureen Clough (01:01:11.33)
I mean, we'll have something smart. I think we already do. It's this, and it goes everywhere with us. I do not believe it's inevitable. I think that that's the narrative that these tech billionaires want us to hear because they enrich themselves and they get all the data from us. I think that we are seeing, and we talked about it a little earlier, right? Like the pushback against AI and data centers and whatnot. Like I think we're about to see like a growing resistance to this shit.
Joel Cheesman (01:01:39.675)
Okay.
Maureen Clough (01:01:40.673)
I think it's very deserved because I don't trust these companies or these governments with my data. I really don't. Now, do I still have a smartphone? Yeah, unfortunately. But I have done like what I can to de-risk that. And when we're in a world where people can, without getting your consent, turn on a button, record you, get your personal info, and put it God knows where. I just don't think that's worth the benefits.
I do think that people are becoming wiser to the risks associated with this technology. So I don't think it's inevitable at all. I think that we are in a place where people are really waking up to what's happening. certainly, I'm going to say this, we all have our bubbles, our echo chambers. So perhaps I am in said echo chamber where that is very much talked about and other people aren't. And they're like, cool tech.
Joel Cheesman (01:02:10.193)
Mm-hmm.
Joel Cheesman (01:02:23.505)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (01:02:28.977)
And at the risk of sounding sexist, think there's a male and female view of this that you and I
Maureen Clough (01:02:34.902)
I don't think that sex is, I think that's a real thing because I also fear more for women and like stalking and stuff like that that could come with glasses that men don't have to concern themselves as much with. yeah, yeah.
Joel Cheesman (01:02:46.941)
Correct. Correct. The men's response to it would be like, pull my finger, get this on video jerk. Okay. Like so a woman, a woman has a much different perspective on smart glasses than a man, than a man does.
Maureen Clough (01:02:57.686)
Right? Yeah. So I think there is probably a gender divide there too, for sure. And like, I'm not like, I like tech. I think it's cool. just, this particular tech, the extent to which it can be so pervasive and so unnoticeable and there's zero consent scares the shit out of me. And for me, it's not worth it.
Joel Cheesman (01:03:01.851)
Yeah.
Joel Cheesman (01:03:17.627)
Well, you don't think this is inevitable, but you know what is inevitable? Mo? Yeah, a dad joke and
Maureen Clough (01:03:21.438)
a dad joke? boy. boy. Here we go.
Joel Cheesman (01:03:28.871)
So in the honor of talking about glasses, Mo, what do you call a potato who wears glasses? What do you call a potato that wears glasses?
Maureen Clough (01:03:37.102)
Shoot, something with eyes, because it's got those things called eyes. Damn it, damn it, damn it. Ugh, I got nothing.
Joel Cheesman (01:03:43.395)
A spectator. A spectator. You like that? Yeah, I bet you didn't see that one coming, did you?
Maureen Clough (01:03:45.454)
that's cute. That is so Mo approved. Like you really nailed it. That was cute.
I didn't, truly didn't. Maybe if I were wearing Meta Ray Bans, I would have seen it, you know? Next life. Good to see you. In the
Joel Cheesman (01:04:00.465)
Mo, good to hang out with ya. That's another one in the can. We out!
Maureen Clough (01:04:08.889)
Super.
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