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iCIMS' Front Row Seat

Al Smith, CTO at iCIMS, is back on the podcast recording from his front-row seat to the AI race, he talks ChatGPT, chatbots deciding to compete with applicant tracking systems like his, what we can expect from the upcoming INSPIRE conference ( (new CEO on stage alert!) and why, exactly, he dislikes the term “ATS” so much. Al is always smart, candid, and transparent - almost like he has no filter at all - so this is a must-listen if you want an honest breakdown of the current state of tech at his company and the industry at large.


Intro: Hide your kids. Lock the doors. You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheesman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts. Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark. Buckle up, boys and girls. It's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.

Joe Cheeseman: Oh yeah, if you don't know, ask your senator. What's up, everybody? It's your favorite guilty pleasure, AKA, The Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host Joel Cheeseman, joined as always, the Little John Demi Robin Hood, Chad Sowash.

Chad Sowash: What's up?

Joe Cheeseman: And today we welcome Al Smith, CTO at iCIMS to the podcast. Al, welcome.

Al Smith: Thanks so much, guys. Nice to see you again as always.

Chad Sowash: Welcome back.

Joe Cheeseman: Welcome back. So for our listeners that don't know you, all three or four of them, give us your Twitter bio, and we'll get to the hard-hitting Q&A after that.

Al Smith: Yeah, real easy. So Al Smith, CTO at iCIMS. Been with iCIMS over eight years. And I've got responsibility for our product management, engineering, cloud-hosting teams, and a great lover of technology that helps people find jobs.

Chad Sowash: Eight years. He just said eight years. Listen.

Joe Cheeseman: I was drinking out of my iCIMS YETI. The ice was smashing against the lips. Sorry.

Chad Sowash: So within the eight years that you've been there, what's changed. What's been the biggest change in our industry, not iCIMS? I'll get to that one in a second.

Al Smith: It's funny, some things have not changed at all. And I knew nothing about this industry before I joined. To be candid with you, when the recruiter called me about joining iCIMS, I said, "Hiring software? Isn't this death, taxes sucks?" Like what could possibly be new." Obviously, I was poorly educated on this industry. I think I joined in 2015, and our industry hadn't yet pivoted to really understand mobile sufficiently.

Chad Sowash: Yeah.

Al Smith: And I think as I think of today, everything is de facto mobile, mobile, properly mobile, I think. And we've moved away from apps largely. Just mobile adaptive is being just bread and butter. I think the impact of... Everybody wanted to use the term big data. I did too. It's real. We benchmarked ourselves a lot, and I think a lot of our customers are hungry for that data to try to help understand the dynamic of their own business and what it could be, and it's a hard job.

Al Smith: Now what hasn't changed, it's kinda crazy when you look at it, is I think it's still a crazy fragmented industry with hundreds of vendors playing different roles. I think when we look at our customers that are hiring... Buying and hiring software, we see customers a year buying best-of-breed or they're buying from their ATM vendor, and I don't think that's changed a heck of a lot. The numbers switch back and forth depending on which analyst you talk to. But I think at the other today, we do these surveys, and I know a lot of people do, how many tools does a talent acquisition team use? And I don't think numbers move the needle a lot. They use 20 to 25 to 30 tools depending on how big their scope is. I think what's changed for me and for us is we offer now more and more of those tools from one vendor, which hopefully in the big picture is really helpful for our customers. It's kind of the mission we've been on to say how do we make it easier, better, more of? But it's a hard job, folks, doing this.

Joe Cheeseman: Can we clarify the death of apps comment? Are we talking about just our space? Are you digging the grave for the entire app ecosystem?

Al Smith: It's interesting. I think a couple of technology changes that early on everybody was writing phone-specific, platform-specific apps. If you go 2013, there were six operating systems for mobile people were trying to write apps. Then we were writing for Android and Apple, and that's still happening. But I think there's a lot of movement. I know we've moved and other people have moved to like a React Native kind of implementation. We use React as part of our UI technology, you can generate a Native app for iOS and Android off of that, and therefore is less about going to the app store also, that kind of thing. And then mobile adaptive web experiences when you don't need the extra data help that an app can give you. I'd see a pretty strong trend that more people are focusing on web adaptive... Mobile adaptive experiences on a web interface 'cause it's easier.

Joe Cheeseman: Yeah. So you mentioned 2013, I think you said there, and I'm gonna go back in the past just a little bit. You guys had...

Chad Sowash: Here we go.

Joe Cheeseman: The INSPIRE Conference last year, which was just November, and you've decided to just flip it and have another one like six months later.

Al Smith: It was so good.

Joe Cheeseman: Yeah. It was so good.

Al Smith: Yeah.

Joe Cheeseman: But a little... A few things have changed in the world since November. But I wanna go back to something you said in your presentation. I don't know if you said you hate the term ATS or something along those lines. Tell us why so hateful on the term ATS, and what should we be using instead?

Al Smith: I don't think that I hate ATS. I think you put those words in my mouth, and I accept them. I was complaining that a lot of our... A lot of the analyst community particularly, but also even some of the market at large have a hard time seeing us as more than an ATS, and I was talking about iCIMS specifically. When I joined, they had three products. It was an amazing company that had been on a wonderful run. But we're now a portfolio of 20 plus products, and I think we do a disservice... And look, some of this is marketing brand and other things, but we do a disservice just lumping it all to say, "Hey, iCIMS is an ATS company." We're really focused on trying to address all the parts of the hiring process, the top of funnel, the attract and engagement experiences.

Al Smith: Yes, we continue to remain really strong, I think, on the higher part, where ATS is still important. I still love my child called ATS. And then we've expanded our lane a bit. Last year, we introduced an opportunity marketplace around internal mobility and advancement. And for me, I think of all these things as a complete life cycle is what we're trying to bring to our customers and solutions on the candidate and employee experience. So I was whining. You called me out on the whine. That's fair, that's fair. And I was whining that says, "Please think of us... I need your help. Think of us as more than just an ATS."

Joe Cheeseman: Cheese knows a whine when it sees it, you know what I'm saying there?

Chad Sowash: It's really amorphous. It's kind of like this nebulous relic of... I mean, applicant tracking system back in the ResumeX days. I mean, this is back in what shit? What? '98. That was an applicant tracking system. The ResumeX of yesterday is not the iCIMS of today. Not to mention, if you even try to bump up different, "applicant tracking systems or what's siloed as an applicant tracking system", the capabilities, the performance, everything is different from brand to brand to brand.

Al Smith: Yeah.

Chad Sowash: I've wanted to get rid of this term ATS 'cause it is a relic. It is a very small portion of what you guys actually do. Although the hard part is, HR is slow to adopt, talent acquisition is slow to adopt. And trying to teach them a new term to be able to fit yourself into is just a marketing nightmare.

Al Smith: Yeah. Like I'd give kudos to Colin Day who founded the company, and he'll tell you, I'm sure if we called Colin now, he'd say, look, it may not be sexy, but everybody needs an ATS and guess what? It's still the foundation of the hiring process. You know it is. And we invest a lot in...

Chad Sowash: Recordkeeping.

Al Smith: Yeah. Well, look, we invest a lot in it to constantly make it hopefully have more and more utility, I think is the right outcome as opposed to just being recordkeeping. So I don't hate it. Joel, I don't hate the term. I just wanna be known as more than that. That's all.

Joe Cheeseman: And unfortunately, Colin is retired in Fiji, so the time zones really wouldn't work up if we did call him.

Chad Sowash: I think he's in Bora Bora this month.

Joe Cheeseman: Yeah. If we called him right now, he's probably asleep, he's probably asleep.

Al Smith: He's gonna be listening to your podcast every day, come on.

Joe Cheeseman: On the beach, yes, in a Speedo, obviously because that's the best way to listen to us.

Al Smith: He did not do that.

Joe Cheeseman: So going back to November again, a little thing called ChatGPT launched in November. A few things have changed since then. A lot of companies have embraced it. I just wanna get your overall take on ChatGPT and its impact on our industry.

Al Smith: Yeah. So as I mentioned, I renamed my dog GPT. All kidding aside, I don't have a dog right now. My daughter does. The hype is crazy. Although, look, we're certainly doing research and experimenting with it. I'll come back and kind of lay out how I see it. I do think it's gonna make a huge impact in our business in a lot of different ways. And that's important to not ignore it or put your head in the sand and say, "Hey, I don't have to participate." It's gonna be a serious impact in a couple ways. Some I hope for the real good positive. We've spent a lot of time building a responsible AI program, working really hard at a code of conduct, human-led, explainable, reversible, transparent, all these things that we think matter.

Al Smith: GPT today doesn't represent a lot of those aspects. And I think some of the people who are worried about it may be appropriately so is the explainability, is like, mmm, that kinda thing. That said, look even with all the careful work we've done, the number of companies at scale, I think that's the key word, not the early adopters, but companies at scale have been really slow to make decisions to use AI knowingly using AI as part of a decision process. I will tell you the approaches that we've taken on AI in general. I'll come back to ChatGPT, is I think AI can do a hell of a lot of good for our industry, solving problems that are beyond human scale. And I think we're just too ready to ignore these things that are beyond human scale.

Al Smith: So DE&I problems, there's a lot of stuff that goes into the news around, "Hey, new AI model has bias and somebody's not getting a job that you get a job." Well, that's good that that's getting the news. That's a bad outcome. But if we look at the situation where you flip it on its head and you say, well, look in a normal hiring process, first of all, if you have a diversity plan, how diverse is your company to start? Do you know that? If you don't, can we set goals? By the way, when you start hiring, how diverse is the top of the funnel? Are you diverse to begin with? And do you lose diversity as the funnel proceeds? And if so, do you also keep track trending? Are you making improvements on your goals? And are you looking in the right places for diverse people?

Al Smith: Are you using technologies that help you hire on potential, not on experience only? That is a lot of our AI program, and it compliments a lot for companies that are trying to solve the problem of scale and complexity and all these things that the human can't track. The other one, I think, is it's kinda crazy. We have employers that have... You have 1000 open jobs for a certain position and you're fortunate and our technology helps us, I get it. You got 25,000 candidates in an hour or in a day. In a day, you picked up 25,000 applicants. First of all, how does your team who's trying to hire 1000 people, how do they find the right 2000 people to talk to to make a decision on, number one? And most of the companies that have this dynamic, they're B2C companies. And so those people applying to your company are also your customers. How do you ensure you give them a good experience and telling them you're not giving them the job so that they don't think poorly of your brand and hurt those things? I think too often we're ignoring this stuff. This is where AI shines.

Chad Sowash: We have for years. Even before the scalability issue that we're seeing now, we just... The black hole has existed. You have clients today that they don't address the black hole issue. This perspectively could help do that.

Al Smith: Totally. And look, I will tell you categorically, when we talk about generative AI which we've been piloting and working with for a while, there's a lot of places in the different workflows that the hiring process represents, where this has a lot of great potential and we're certainly gonna use it. To me overall, it's got the highest potential on being a productivity aid, right? And we know everywhere we help productivity, there's a big plus for our employers and even for the candidates and employees who are going through this journey. I think from my perspective, we've been playing around with it for a number of months right now on, hey, don't take this the wrong way, but 90% of all job descriptions are a pile of poo. Can we have better job descriptions that actually better support...

Joe Cheeseman: You can say shit on this podcast, Al, just so you know.

Al Smith: I know, but my mother might come smack me, so I... And candidly, so are most resumes. They're pretty, pretty poor.

Chad Sowash: Yeah.

Al Smith: So helping people communicate better, the employer and the person looking for the job, can the technology give you a better starting point? Make you more effective at doing it and communicate better? Yes. Think about all the things that are in our talent cloud. I'm doing a marketing automation campaign to recruit candidates. Can I write better letters and emails and texts and things that better communicate the likelihood that you're gonna do it and give it to you in a way that I give you a starting point, you finish it? Because again, human-led, no black box, bing, here's the answer. We do... When we send you a job offer, can we give a better offer letter? When you're onboarding, can we give you better explanations of the tasks you're being given? There's just so many places where we have content that relies on kind of either lowest common denominator of template libraries or the talent of the individuals and their experience to write good content. I'm hoping this can improve that significantly.

Joe Cheeseman: Are you talking about current products, future projects? It sounds like you're talking about some native things that iCIMS is gonna be building or has built. Talk about that.

Al Smith: Yeah. One of the things I've decided to do, particularly with this technology, is introduce a bit of a playground where we can open up the lab for our customers to come in and play with the technology before we productize. We haven't released the ChatGPT specifically or generative AI in our products yet. We have a really robust AI platform that does a wonderful job at the notion of match and all the permutations of match, whether it's job to person, person to job, person to person, et cetera. And we've been using that AI also as part of helping us solve problems of human scale like, "Hey, we've got a half a billion profiles. When we go through there and look at people's job experiences, how do we actually identify a good skills cloud or skills taxonomy to help people make better decisions about career pathing and what skills you need and where are your gaps?" Same thing, when how do we normalize, look at how people name jobs. If I just look at our own company, how many different titles I have for the same job across departments, it's crazy.

Al Smith: Those are problems of human scale our industry just sucks at. And so I'm using AI in solving a lot of those problems that, again, category is beyond human scale. Here's a great... We took... I know in one of our runs, we took about 250,000 different job titles and distilled them down to a common 20,000 jobs. And that's a jobs taxonomy that we can now do skills matching against and then help people with career pathing decisions. So that's in current product. What you'll see me do is open up a bit of a playground where you can play with the GPT products and other generative AI things that we're looking at. And I'd like to actually feedback and here's what I'm more interested in before I just say, "Hey, it's in our products". I don't know about the other vendors out there, and I know a lot of 'em have rushed to market with a new product named with that.

Chad Sowash: Oh, you don't say.

Al Smith: I do say, but... And I'm sure the early adopters will jump on that, but the regulatory challenges that I see our customers struggling with around data privacy, around data residency, around AI fairness. Look, we just spent a lot of effort and a lot of time. I knew we would do well, but just New York City's new fairness and AI rule, now they just delayed enforcement again until I think July. But we were ready in January. We went through the audit. Yes, we came through well 'cause we knew the program we had built. But even with that, I can't tell you how many of my customers have just second guesses about saying, "Yes, I'm willing to turn it on." That's AI that is very explainable. There's clear audit trail on all of this that we provide. GPT is a bit different. So let's see.

Chad Sowash: Here's one thing and I think we get it in our own way sometimes because we talk about it being explainable, but those companies don't give two shits about explaining it. They wanna defend it. Right? So it's about defendability and it's about going in and transparency, number one. I think one of the lessons that we have learned from ChatGPT is that transparency is the way forward. Not just because of GDPR, not just because of New York and California and all these states and metros that come up with new regulation, but because it's better for business. Look at ChatGPT explodes because I would say my opinion is because of the transparency and allowing users to taste it, touch it, feel it, and really play around with it knowing that it's not perfect. It almost feels like it has to be perfect before we allow anyone in to our gates. And then when we do that, we only allow salespeople to demo that. Is that gonna change?

Al Smith: Yeah. Look, that's a really great point you're making. I don't think any of these technologies will get to the point that they're perfect before you can adopt, I think. I think what you've got to ask yourself is, again, around that notion of a productivity aid, does this give me a better 80%, 90% starting point and take a lot of the undifferentiated work I'm required to do off my plate? If the answer to that is yes, I think you've hit the tipping point of adoption for a lot of people and a lot of users. And that's how I'm looking at it, at least. I will say one word of caution from at least Al Smith being the maybe overly cautious, I'll take that criticism. What's unclear to me, and particularly on OpenAI's public website, is when you put your information into it, who owns the IP that was generated? Do they own it or do you own it?

Chad Sowash: Yes, they currently do unless you're using, I think, the API. There's a different set of terms and conditions.

Al Smith: Right. And I just wanna put that word of warning. For my own organization, look, we're licensing, we have long-term relationships with all the cloud vendors, and Microsoft clearly has made the big investment. And so I can license with clear ownership of IP through there. I will say, by the way, just a nod to Microsoft, as much as I'm shocked that they let go of their fairness in AI leader, and they've gone all in on this, I do think the notion though that they've introduced of Copilot, Chad, is exactly the right way to think about it. It's your Copilot, right? So it's helping you get rid of the undifferentiated work you're required to do to complete a task. And if it makes you faster, better, more consistent at that work, can you bring other skills to what you do? And I think I like that concept. I think they got that right. I saw somebody else already has turned their stuff Copilot as well. I think SeekOut or somebody. I can't remember, but...

Joe Cheeseman: Chad is my co-pilot.


Al Smith: He takes care of the undifferentiated work for you and...

Chad Sowash: Let's just talk about all the work. Let's just talk about that.

Joe Cheeseman: I don't know what any of that means, Al. Alright. Look, you have a front row seat with your marketplace to what you've mentioned vendors and what they're doing. Are you seeing a rush to add features on ChatGPT? Are you guys putting up any guardrails on that? What are you seeing on the marketplace?

Al Smith: Well, look in the marketplace, we're not reselling our partners' products. We're making them available, saying that they've been validated, working properly on our products using our APIs, and that we have mutual customers. So if you're trying to make a decision, it is truly a marketplace. These are vendors you should look at and make a decision for what the fit for you is. Yeah, look, there's a lot of noise. I haven't seen new, I haven't seen new products in our marketplace yet per se. Some of the people who we have coopetition with who do have a presence in our marketplace, I've seen some of their introductions. I think it is gonna be a rush. I think it's gonna be the hype cycles probably more extreme for the reasons you brought out, Chad. People can touch it with their own hands, if you will, and see the benefit and that helps. And look, as a tech guy, am I excited by that? Yes, I'm excited that we climb over our next level barrier hopefully to get people to want to consider what good things it can do for you.

Al Smith: I think we just need a little bit of air to come out of the balloon so that we also know what bad things it could do for you. Let's face it, these large language models are trained on all the poo that sits in the internet. They try to clean it, but they're... Where I have really high hopes is in a private implementation that we would do or people like us, we're curating the data, we're cleansing the data, we're removing data that might actually might create bias in its behaviors. And then if we train it on a model, do I think it'll work really well? I do. I have really high hopes and expectations that it can be impactful.

Chad Sowash: So we've talked to Ryan Steelberg, who is the CEO of Veritone, the guys who cloned our voices and we actually do the foreign podcasts through. Talk about scary shit. Or sexy, depending on who you are. We talked to Ryan Steelberg about this and he's talking about linked data models where you have the large language data models and then you have the domain specific so that when you are in the Chat environment or what have you, the system knows whether it's gonna be hitting off of large language or if it's gonna be hitting off of domain specific, but those are separated so that you don't have to worry about kind of like the clash of terms, what you were talking about earlier. Talk about that. Have you seen that? Is that something that you guys are looking to do?

Al Smith: Yeah, we are. I mean, look, I think everybody's gonna end up here for a couple of reasons. You don't want these weird... At least in... Look, we're producing a class of products in a B2B model that you want predictability and expected behavior in everything we produce, right? That's really the definition for me of enterprise software, known state and expected behavior, right? But I don't run the risk that this thing starts, just going off the deep end and asking to marry me, right? That would be a bad outcome. So I think as they... As we get smarter about what are the guardrails you can implore, that's gonna be one of the techniques. Certainly curating the data that you train those domain-specific models with is one of the techniques. For me, it's not about having a specific model per customer, which I think is a mistake the AI industry made even in our space over the last bunch of years because it's unsustainable. If every customer has a separate model, I also need data scientists to be tech support, I need data scientists to be implementers. I can barely find enough data scientists to build and train models, let alone do the full life cycle of software products.

Al Smith: So I've not done that. Sometimes again to... I understand the criticism and it's appropriate for things we can't do, but we'd rather build domain-specific models, I use your term, that are specifically... We know the state of the data it's being trained on. And just to be clear, if you're running a responsible AI program, you're also training your models with uncleansed data, uncurated data, and you're comparing the results and you're measuring the bias and you're tracking and trending that and you're also looking for model drift. We do all that stuff. I'm not sure everybody's doing all that stuff, but we are.

Joe Cheeseman: You mentioned everybody else and you've also talked about user experience and scale and a lot of things that sound eerily like a chatbot. And I won't name names, but a certain chatbot is getting into the ATS game. What's your read on that? Are you threatened? Is it like, yeah, mosquito on my ass. No big deal? What are your thoughts?

Al Smith: Oh, you give me such like opposite end choices. Look, if I was them, I think this is bold and brilliant on their part. Knowing and looking at their business, they've done one thing pretty well. Like most specialists, I would imagine they're running out of white space in the market they're looking for. At least that's how it appears to me. They do one thing incredibly well and God bless. But now how do you keep growing for your investors at a rate that when you start using up white space? So their positioning is three things that I think are kind of interesting. A vertical industry alignment around high volume hiring is kind of a very needed, but also pretty narrow kind of space, that's one, although I know that's the strength of what chatbots do 'cause it's a simpler class of hiring. I think the fact that they're using conversational AI, not generative AI is an important nuance. And again, I think pretty cool on their part. So curious to see how well they do. And then the statement on, and now you no longer need an ATS, well, that's kind of interesting back to how our conversation started. I guess that works for regional companies doing a single class of hiring where you don't have extensive EEO and responsibility and other things, but I don't see our complex employers being able to get away with that in the challenges of running your business just at scale and let alone be global businesses.

Al Smith: So look, I think am I ignoring them? No, I'm gonna watch and see how they do. Do I think that was bold on their part to reposition the company in this way using both technology and a narrow vertical industry focus? I do, but I think I understand why they're doing it. So let's see how it works out for them.

Chad Sowash: So don't you think that probably one of the best ways to get inputs of data is through chat, through messaging, through... It's more async than it is sync, right? So even no matter whether you're high volume hiring or you're hiring mid-level managers, to be able to give them more of an experience that's on their time as opposed to having them fill out a form on the web, don't you think that that is a transition and evolution? And are you guys looking at actually going down that road?

Al Smith: Yeah. Look, and let's hope that that is the trend because it's what's needed. Look, we've done some pretty good stuff with our digital assistant, not trying to say it's the world's most amazing, but I think we scheduled something like 45,000, 50,000 job interviews last year through the digital assistant and that's pretty meaningful. And so to your point, Chad, anywhere we take noise out of the process to let people get to the decision-making is good. And so if we can get people feeling comfortable with adoption like that, I like that idea a lot. And yes, we have a lot of different levels of stuff in the lab that we're always looking at. When's the right time to go into product? Can we do it at scale? Can I do it across all the geographies with regulatory data privacy, data residency rules? Sometimes I have to go slower because it takes me longer to get all that to line up on everywhere you're gonna go. It's so much easier in the US. Honestly, there's a lot less regulation and it's more uniform. Even though we have these CCPA in California and the New York Fairness and AI and other things popping up, it is less complex than that.

Al Smith: And I'm hoping that what you described is we're all gonna just go there. But that said, and I'm not throwing any shade on any of my customers who have very strong legal teams, but we've got technology that really streamlines. Like I don't need your resume if that's not the class of hire, I don't need much information from you. It's 10 clicks. And then they hit the 12-page legal document that they have to read through on their phone and click through. It's like, gang, you're not getting it. If that's really a requirement of hiring somebody, bring that to them later, not when they're thinking about, "Gee, I wonder if I wanna work at this company." So there's so much unevenness when I look across the implementations out there.

Joe Cheeseman: So the next time we all see each other, we won't be in our home offices. We'll be in paradise AKA San Diego for the...

Chad Sowash: Yes. By the pool, right?

Joe Cheeseman: Inspire Conference. So Al, give us a preview of what we can expect particularly a new CEO? What should we expect from him?

Al Smith: Umbrella drinks, umbrella drinks from Brian. So Brian Provost will certainly have the keynote and I'll be joining him. Real excited. Brian, I think people are gonna find is a what you see is what you get kind of person, which is great. He comes from a really strong software background and his ability to jump into our company... And this is saying something, I think, jump into our company, plug in the culture and pick up the use cases very quickly that our customers care about, I think he's doing a great job. So hopefully you'll hear him having a comfort level from just being introduced in November as coming on board to somebody who's in the saddle and still learning, but doing a lot of things now from a totally different lens, that's one.

Al Smith: You guys will uphold me... Hold me accountable for any announcements I made in November, I'm sure. I'll tell you some of the favorite parts of the conference that we've started to really build repeatably. I kind of like those fireside chat sessions where you get either a panel of people talking to each other or somebody driving the panel throwing questions. We have some really great ones. I know you guys are fans of, and I am too, of Andreea Wade, who is our strategist on AI and founded the company that we've built on and she's gonna have some great sessions. I think that every time I hear Andreea talk, I learn something new and it's just the kind of thing I wanna be doing. And then hopefully, you all are gonna be there, right? I mean, so we're gonna have...

Chad Sowash: Yeah. And that's not for us. That's for Andreea Wade because deathmatch winner, number one, number two, acquired by iCIMS, and number three, she's going to be on stage in early May at iCIMS Inspire on the beach, or at least close to the beach.

Al Smith: The other one, and I'm sure you guys will jump on this, is we've got a bunch of customers that are gonna tell their journey. That's always the best. Maybe that's why we moved it so close 'cause we wanted to do more of that. I don't know.

Chad Sowash: Two or three a year, that'd be awesome.


Joe Cheeseman: Al Smith, everybody, CTO at iCIMS. Al, for those listeners that wanna know more about you or the Inspire Conference, where would you send them?

Al Smith:, right on the banner. It's there.

Joe Cheeseman: Easy-peasy, lemon squeezy. Another one in the can, Chad. We out.

Chad Sowash: We out.

Outro: Wow, look at you. You made it through an entire episode of the Chad & Cheese podcast, or maybe you cheated and fast-forwarded to the end. Either way, there's no doubt you wish you had that time back, valuable time you could have used to buy a nutritious meal at Taco Bell, enjoy a pour of your favorite whisky, or just watch big booty Latinas and bug fights on TikTok. No, you hung out with these two chuckleheads instead. Now, go take a shower and wash off all the guilt, but save some soap because you'll be back. Like an awful train wreck, you can't look away. And like Chad's favorite Western, you can't quit them either. We out.


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