Indeed Shareholder Report

On this week's show we have Shareholders, Agents & CEO Facepalms

• Indeed uses their powers for evil while Recruit wants to "simplify hiring"—translation: control everything.

• JobRight raised millions to unleash job-hunting agents. Spoiler: it’s AI catfishing until the interview.

• Ford’s CEO just realized paying people more keeps them around. Shocking.

• Layoffs keep piling up, the economy’s a mess, and the job market needs a total reboot.

  
  

The Chad & Cheese Podcast—where innovation meets insanity (and we mock it all).

PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION

Joel Cheesman (00:34.086)

It's 106 miles to Chicago. got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes. It's dark and we're wearing sunglasses. Hey boys and girls, it's the Chad and cheese podcast. I'm your cohost Joel alligator out Alcatraz Cheesman.

Chad (00:49.633)

This is Chad England, here we come, Sowash.

J.T. O'Donnell (00:52.672)

I'm JT, I'm on vacation, O'Donnell.

Joel Cheesman (00:56.302)

And on this episode, more indeed applies for a job overlord. I didn't say that right. And on this episode indeed applies to be your job overlord. Agents are a thing and layoffs. Let's do this.

Joel Cheesman (01:15.014)

So what'd you guys do for Canada Day? Did you have some poutine and some ketchup chips?

Chad (01:20.373)

don't even know what that is.

J.T. O'Donnell (01:22.846)

I love poutine though. mean gravy cheese like fries.

Joel Cheesman (01:25.254)

Taints good.

Chad (01:26.483)

On, yeah, on, on, on fries. mean, you can't, you can't. Yeah. Yes. Well done, Canada.

Joel Cheesman (01:29.734)

fries, gravy, cheese. Yeah. Hard to do. Hard to do. A lot of Americans have no idea, but Canada Day, July 1st. It gets overshadowed by the 4th of July, obviously. you know, we have a lot of sponsors are Canadian. love everything Canadian on the show. It was not a revolution. There was an award. They signed some papers, I think. It was pretty, pretty polite, but they got their independence and they celebrate it on July 1st. So happy Canada Day.

J.T. O'Donnell (01:31.022)

Well done, Canada. Well done.

Chad (01:55.349)

Nice.

Chad (01:58.739)

Nice, nice. Much like Portugal, they call the Carnation Revolution because there was no war. was all just peaceful transfer, peaceful transfer of power. From years of being a theocracy. That's fucking fun. Jesus.

Joel Cheesman (02:08.506)

Yeah.

J.T. O'Donnell (02:09.486)

face.

J.T. O'Donnell (02:14.796)

I learned so much about history on this show with you boys.

Chad (02:19.165)

And jerseys, look, my new jersey.

Joel Cheesman (02:22.628)

That's right. There's a reason we have that sound bite on this show. There's a reason. Chad, you got a new soccer jersey on or should I say football? What? That is pretty.

Chad (02:24.413)

no. no.

Yeah, sporting. Sporting Yeah, they won they won the Portuguese League for last two years last two years in a row. So yeah, I will be sporting get it. The Portuguese national jersey on stage at Wreckfest. New one. Sexy. Oh, it's sexy.

J.T. O'Donnell (02:30.177)

It's pretty.

Yeah, it's like...

Joel Cheesman (02:48.862)

which, we will get to an events. but, JT's, we're only thing standing between her and vacation, I think. So let's, let's get to some, shout outs. I'll go ahead and go first guys. you probably know Lars Schmidt. A lot of our listeners will know Lars. he's quite the icon in the industry. anyway, he, he recently shut down his, his podcast, a lot of things that he was doing social media and whatnot.

Chad (02:52.416)

Yes.

Chad (02:57.345)

Let's this over with.

Okay.

Chad (03:04.513)

yeah.

Chad (03:14.847)

Yeah, so good focus.

Joel Cheesman (03:16.742)

which I thought was really interesting. So he re he recently launched a clothing, store line online, platform and I'm wearing one of his shirts. It's a, it's a lightning bolt. Cause you know, I'm, I'm hot and cool like that chat. gotta, gotta wear the lightning bolt, but it's called joy syndicate. good on him. know a lot of people are in industry sort of get stuck in recruiting and then doing what they do. And, shout out to Lars.

Chad (03:26.273)

Nice.

Chad (03:33.44)

You

Joel Cheesman (03:45.626)

for getting outside the box. He is still head of talent at a company called fruity fruitiest or fruitist. so he's still doing that, but good on him. He's had this idea for like 20 years, finally did it. it's joy hyphen, syndicate.com go get a shirt, get a bucket hat bags, maybe Merce, depending on, know, who, who, who you're shopping for. I do need a Merce, a bum bag, I think is what you call it in Europe. I'm going to maybe bring that to Germany.

Chad (03:55.786)

Awesome.

Chad (04:07.438)

You need a MRS for your Europe test after your...

Yes.

Joel Cheesman (04:14.694)

Uh, this, this, uh, this weekend. anyway, shout out Lars, man, keep, keep doing what you do. Hopefully you're not going to disappear from the landscape. We'd love to see it in an event coming soon. Don't don't disappear totally.

Chad (04:25.803)

Yeah, GT.

J.T. O'Donnell (04:27.534)

Yeah, I'm going to give a shout out to AI app building. So I came across this app that said you can take any idea you have and talk to us and we'll build you the app. So I took the challenge on Sunday afternoon and built a LinkedIn profile analyzer that I literally launched same day within like three hours. And we know AI is coming but to interact with AI like that the way I did and to build something that I could

Chad (04:44.768)

Okay.

J.T. O'Donnell (04:54.818)

go out and immediately give value to you, people. tells you like rates your profile, tells you out of the four areas what to fix. I called it profile boost. It's work at daily profile boost. It's you'll find it in my LinkedIn feed. It's still in beta, but you go to my, I've posted it every day and say, Hey, pop your LinkedIn and see your score. It's been, yeah.

Chad (05:00.789)

What's the name of it?

Chad (05:05.205)

Okay.

Joel Cheesman (05:14.68)

And she just raised $100 million, everybody. She's the lightest unicorn in our space. Sorry, sorry. couldn't resist.

Chad (05:14.945)

Nice.

J.T. O'Donnell (05:19.918)

Right. But, but you know, it cost me $60. So like, it would have taken a team of a hundred developers. And you know what mean? When you think about that for someone like me to sit on my couch and be like, okay, dude, no fixes, do this, do that. The app is called Replet. I'm not sponsored by them in any way, folks. It's just somebody just said, Hey, it works. And I went, sure. It does. Like, this is what I really need. Cause I get asked every day how to, how do I fix my LinkedIn profile? And I was like, chief, I could just have the app for that, know, boom, I the app for that. So.

Chad (05:20.001)

Valuation 20 billion.

Joel Cheesman (05:30.374)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (05:34.01)

What service did you use? Yeah, Replet, yeah.

Yeah, there's a

Chad (05:46.048)

Hmm.

J.T. O'Donnell (05:49.634)

Folks, do not underestimate where you can build with AI these days.

Chad (05:52.609)

That's right. That's right. Well, since JT's on vacation and she's she still showed up, which I appreciate that JT because Joel doesn't do that. I'm just going to go straight into free stuff. I'm going give you some time off this week. You don't have to do free stuff. One of the reasons why is because we have new T-shirts. We have new T-shirts. They're Dr. Feelgood Motley Crew Chad Cheese T-shirts. Very inspired. Going to be at Nebworth. We'll talk a little bit about that. But free stuff.

J.T. O'Donnell (06:08.716)

Hmm

Joel Cheesman (06:12.674)

Inspired.

Chad (06:21.675)

Go to ChadCheese.com slash free where you could prospectively win those t-shirts, gorgeous t-shirts from our friends over at Aaron app, whiskey, two bottles of chicken cock. That's right. One, one cock for each hand. The talent experts over at Van hack. That's right. In Canada, Vancouver. We got more Canadians. We've got barrel bourbon barrel age syrup by our friends at

Joel Cheesman (06:40.964)

Headquartered in Vancouver, that's right. One of our proud Canadian, along with Kiora.

Chad (06:50.571)

Keyura also sponsors of shout outs, texting made simple, craft beer, the job data geeks over at Aspen Tech Labs. That's right, you get a box of beer on your doorstep. Joel Cheeseman will deliver it himself. And if it's your birthday, if it's your birthday, you can win rum from plum. Got to go to ChadCheese.com slash free to register.

J.T. O'Donnell (07:03.555)

Hmm.

Joel Cheesman (07:07.248)

Make sure you have snacks. Make sure you have snacks.

J.T. O'Donnell (07:19.575)

Yup.

Chad (07:20.993)

Ha

Joel Cheesman (07:21.776)

That's right guys. Another trip around the sun for listeners. Christina Baciu, Mark Anderson, Scott Allen, Aaron Koteff. That's right. Aaron.

Chad (07:37.473)

Who's next? What?

Joel Cheesman (07:38.628)

Yes. Aaron Koteff. There we go. All Nick Bowers, Jesse Sims, Christine Hampton, Daniella McDonald, Elaine Orler, Bill Fisher and Michael. What a full nose McDonald. That's right. Another trip around the sun. When I make, when I make notes at night, I'm usually about two or three bourbons deep and I have all the intention of having little sound bites in these things.

Chad (07:42.049)

There we go. There we go.

J.T. O'Donnell (07:56.526)

Happy birthday everybody.

Chad (07:58.367)

And hopefully...

Joel Cheesman (08:06.906)

And then I mess up in the next day. forget. totally forget that I, that I did it, but.

Chad (08:08.095)

and you forget. That happens. Humans.

J.T. O'Donnell (08:10.574)

Rollback, are the shirts coming to Nebsworth though? Nebsworth? I always put an S in there, I don't know why. My shirt will be there, I will be wearing my shirt, because they are very comfy shirt.

Chad (08:12.991)

Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Chad (08:18.69)

yeah, I like the comfy shirt.

Joel Cheesman (08:18.884)

Yes, they will be at,

Chad (08:22.911)

Well, luckily, Shaker Recruitment Marketing is a sponsor of our travel, where we will be going to, as I'd said, England next week. That's right, RecFest UK and Nebworth July 10th. If you don't have your tickets already, kids, what are you thinking? Go to recfest.com, go get those tickets. We're gonna be on the disrupt stage with our friend, Steven, our favorite Scott McGrath. JT's gonna be there. Mo had to actually eject because she's taking her kids

Joel Cheesman (08:27.983)

Yes, they are.

Chad (08:52.865)

to a Disney inspired or Disney cruise, which actually goes out of Barcelona. I can't hate her for that. But we're also gonna have, Emmy's gonna have her own stage. We're all gonna be there. It's gonna be a blast. See you next week at RecFest.

Joel Cheesman (09:09.008)

Be on the lookout for a 6'4 teenager that looks sort of like my bodyguard. He will have the t-shirts. So he's on alert and usually very, very friendly and with a big backpack. An invitation.

Chad (09:12.321)

Thanks

Chad (09:19.711)

and a backpack.

J.T. O'Donnell (09:22.478)

Can I throw out an invitation too? I'm so excited to be there and I'm not on stage, but if there's anybody in the audience that would like to join me in heckling the boys, I chat CPT'd some pretty fabulous heckles that I think we could joint do. So just come find me, front row, yelling, it'll be great.

Chad (09:33.185)

That's easy.

Chad (09:38.987)

They don't need any help, okay? They don't need help.

Chad (09:46.623)

Now we're going to pull JT on stage too, so she can be part of the heckling as well. Well, you can, back and forth.

Joel Cheesman (09:49.402)

Yeah.

J.T. O'Donnell (09:50.956)

I want a heckle.

Joel Cheesman (09:52.038)

It's going to be a good time. It's going to be a good time. It's going to be a good time. See you guys in London.

Chad (10:00.577)

Well, Joel indeed has been busy kids, healthy budgets enforced. Hyams is out or he decided to leave. He decided to leave killing agency XML feeds, forcing them into APIs, focusing on how to force hiring companies to give in deeds, disposition data for their ATS. And then Jim, the indeed whisperer Durbin sends us this good roll that beautiful bean.

J.T. O'Donnell (11:38.702)

Tasty. Where was the cowboy hat, Jim?

Chad (11:39.871)

I see. Next time. time. Next.

J.T. O'Donnell (11:45.516)

I only know Jim with a hat on, you know what I mean? He's off-brand, that was like kind of buttoned up, Jim.

Joel Cheesman (11:45.612)

Hey, he's he's not he's off brand isn't he? JT knows JT

Joel Cheesman (11:53.302)

I love the indeed whisper though. He's always on that. I think he's still single. I wonder if he uses that in the bars there in Texas. keeps us busy on this show. That's for sure. mean, they're not gonna get accused of not innovating, at least trying some stuff and innovating in air quotes. Look, I can't hate on them for swinging for the fences.

J.T. O'Donnell (11:55.605)

Mm-hmm. Yes.

You

Chad (12:02.273)

I hope not. I hope not.

Yeah. Yeah.

J.T. O'Donnell (12:07.512)

Hmm.

Joel Cheesman (12:21.572)

whether this becomes the new monster type screw up, like be known and it fades away and they don't have the core competency to pull it off. I guess that's left to be seen, but they are full on full core. We're going to own the process. We're going to be in your, in your ATS, the background, like all that stuff. They want to own the whole thing. I can't hate them, hate on them for that, but I can kind of hate on them.

Chad (12:46.017)

Mm.

Joel Cheesman (12:50.662)

for, guess, the bullying way that they're just saying, we're going to do this and either get on, follow, or get the hell out of the way or get run over. One of the things I found funny was Jim posted this on LinkedIn and Megan Radigan, a friend of ours over at Marriott's, had a quote, something like, it's not a time to be lazy. It's a time to be sort of focused on this. And I thought that's funny because people in general are lazy and people in HR and in town are lazy as well.

Chad (13:14.165)

love her.

Chad (13:19.402)

Megan's not.

Joel Cheesman (13:20.322)

Ultimately, Megan is it's an 80 20 kind of thing and Megan is in the 20 % but 80 % of the people of the companies are going to roll over and they're going to let indeed do this. And I'm sure whatever pencil net geek and indeed said, look, if we lose 20 % big deal, the money we're going to make on the 80 % that agreed to do this, we're going to, we're going to come out, come out on top. there is some historical relevance, to this that I wanted to throw in. so, so Google,

Chad (13:23.369)

Yeah. Yeah.

J.T. O'Donnell (13:25.006)

Mm-hmm.

J.T. O'Donnell (13:46.136)

Shocker. Shocker.

Joel Cheesman (13:49.636)

back in the day, tried to sort of do similar thing. They were doing pay per click. wanted to, they launched an analytics solution. They wanted to be in your code. They wanted to know when everything that you sold, how much you made, they wanted a piece of that. They wanted to monitor everything that was going on, which made sense. Cause Hey, if you, if you saw a hundred dollar pair of shoes, we're going to get 10, right? What happened was all the webmasters, all the companies were like,

Chad (14:00.203)

Mm.

Joel Cheesman (14:16.174)

No, you're not going to do that. you're like, you will pay you for the traffic you give us, but we're not going to let you in and open the kimono and have you control everything. My fear is that indeed is doing something similar in trying to overtake the process. We'll see if there's a revolt similar to how Google saw a revolt back in the day. but again, I think laziness will rule the day and 80 % of companies will just roll over and let indeed do this. And I think it'll be successful.

Chad (14:18.166)

Yeah.

Chad (14:45.825)

So cutting down time to fill, they don't control. I mean, that's nothing they control. And they're talking about a lot of things that they don't control, which is it's weird. So to have those expectations over things that you have no control over, like hiring, I mean, they don't hire people. They don't do that hiring managers hiring people, right? And if they take three additional days or two additional weeks, indeed does not have anything to do with control.

I jumped into the business report. on page 40, quote, to achieve the goal of simplifying hiring, which is what Jim was talking about. Recruit believes it is essential to further strengthen the collaboration between all HR related businesses across the recruit group and operated operate them in a unified manner. They're looking to pull these together and call them the HR matching markets. Okay. It goes on to say recruit aims to leverage the vast amount of data.

J.T. O'Donnell (15:41.486)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (15:44.445)

available, the vast amount of data available in each service combined with AI and machine learning technology to simplify the hiring process and deliver greater value, yada yada yada. And then on the very next page, additionally, by expanding integrations with ATSs, what does that sound like? Disposition codes recruit aims to improve matching by bringing outcome data disposition from external applicant tracking systems into the indeed

Platform, okay. So you can easily see that recruits once in needs are going to move everything into the old staffing company cost per hire model. That's what they wanna do. Which is why they're using Indeed to try and force disposition data from the ATS so badly. This feels like newspapers attempt to conform job boards into their old newspaper models, forcing column inches on hiring companies and getting

a job posting as a gift with purchase or maybe a small up sale. It didn't work. The model died in the same way that cost per hire is an old and tired model. Every recruiting platform today should be focused on getting more revenue. How do you do that? New models. You get every qualified candidate, you get paid for them and you give them what they're asking for, right? We're so used to just loads of

Candidates qualified unqualified and Megan from Marriott actually said we got 10 million candidates. The fuck do we need you for I'm paraphrasing at the end of the day Last but not least they kept saying over and over and over quote as a leader in the global HR matching market and quote global HR matching market This is something they literally just made up This does not exist

We've been talking about matching. There's no market. I mean, it's like they're trying to create all of these things out of thin air. And it's really weird. I do like that they're trying to swing for the fence. I don't like that they're using their powers for evil and with the bullying. And I don't like that they're trying to force everybody into an old ass model like Cosper, hire one that could make more money on CPQA or CPQC. That's all I got.

Joel Cheesman (18:05.381)

Mm-hmm.

J.T. O'Donnell (18:08.48)

Yeah, so I agree with both of

Joel Cheesman (18:09.326)

It's hard to imagine that they don't see a world, sorry, JT, where it feels like they want a world where someone joins Indeed as a job seeker. They put in their resume, what kind of job they're looking for. And then the Indeed agent just 24 seven applies to jobs based on what they're looking for and that companies in a similar way say, Hey, I need a PHP developer or whatever. And then it creates the job posting. It goes to the same, like it interviews.

Chad (18:28.551)

We'll talk about that later.

Joel Cheesman (18:38.426)

Like I think they envision a world where agents talk to agents and a lot of this stuff you go to, you go to indeed once or twice and they do the rest for you 24 seven.

J.T. O'Donnell (18:50.91)

I agree with that. In fact, you're so here's the way I look at it is they've got this house that's very old. It has no more market appeal. Do you raise the house and start over or do you try to rehab what you have? And so I'm glad that they're trying to swing for something, but it still feels very much as Chad was talking about that they're rehabbing as opposed to just building something brand new and improve, which those are strategic business decisions. That's fine. What I truly see and believe.

is that there will be no resumes, there will be no job boards, you will not apply on a job board anymore, you will get on and talk to a virtual agent that'll ask you questions, and every day you'll go on. Kind of like your, you know, it's like your career therapist, what did you do today? What did you work on? What skills, what technologies did you use? You'll document yourself, it'll all be sitting there, and then when a recruiter needs somebody with that, it'll go out, it'll listen to all that, which is far more comprehensive.

And quite frankly, can be far more inclusive if you're looking to switch industries, switch skill sets. You can talk about a lot of things and prove you know something, whereas opposed to your resume is just a history of your past, which is lame. We shouldn't be basing it just on that. So the potential for candidates to just get in there and authenticate themselves, provide the data, provide the evidence all the time, ongoing basis. And the AI can go and find them and match them. You might believe that's coming. I mean, if I learned anything this week in building an app in four hours.

Chad (20:07.392)

Yeah.

J.T. O'Donnell (20:08.526)

This is so coming. so someone's got to do it. The question will become, and this is where I think it's like an arms race. This would be really interesting. Isn't it an indeed who can push their weight around and has the money and can get through it? Or is there somebody out there right now with four people that's going to build the next unicorn because they can write like this is the. Yeah, it's fascinating.

Chad (20:24.641)

It's always the question.

Joel Cheesman (20:28.39)

It feels very paradox when you look at demos of what Indeed is building. Very chatty, very, although paradox, it's still a person using the chat bot and indeed's world. think it's agents talking to agents, robots, hiring robots.

J.T. O'Donnell (20:35.608)

Mm-hmm.

J.T. O'Donnell (20:43.436)

agents.

Chad (20:45.611)

So to JT's point, think she's 100 % correct, but there will be assessments and simulations. So when you're talking to the computer, you're actually using whatever it is, the AI, there will be standardized assessments and simulations that you have to go to to prove that you can do those jobs, right? Because I think there's gonna be a lot of hallucinating happening on these profiles. Yeah, well, which are the same thing.

J.T. O'Donnell (21:02.638)

Of course.

Joel Cheesman (21:12.504)

fraud.

J.T. O'Donnell (21:14.082)

Which, but exactly, but the technology is coming there to authenticate them, to build the constraint, right? So that we know that will be solved for. both sides want it. Does anybody want to post a job anymore and get 10,000 applicants and then get yelled at because somebody didn't get an interview? And does any job seeker want to apply and sit in a black hole and get rejected six months later? Like the whole system is just a joke on both sides.

Joel Cheesman (21:15.651)

You

Chad (21:27.943)

No. No.

Joel Cheesman (21:40.922)

Guys, did you know we're on YouTube? If you haven't checked us out yet, head out to youtube.com slash at Chad cheese and tech check out our, beautiful, beautiful mugs and attire that we wear that you can't see on the audio version. we'll be right.

Chad (21:43.251)

What? What?

my sexy shirt.

Joel Cheesman (21:59.174)

Did somebody say agents? We'll bring on the agents. JobRite, an AI native job platform, just raised $3.2 million in funding to accelerate growth and deepen its AI engine. The platform, already used by over 520,000 professionals, that's per the company, automates job applications and promises to improve the job search experience. If you haven't had enough agency, here we go. WISC, an agentic HR platform.

J.T. O'Donnell (22:00.994)

You

Chad (22:02.625)

Jesus.

Joel Cheesman (22:26.918)

provider raised $15 million in funding this week too. Ched, your thoughts or do you just want to have an agent speak for you on the podcast from here on out?

Chad (22:36.267)

So you've both seen the accountant with Ben Affleck and the accountant too. The accountant too just came out on Amazon. Well, the sequel to the one that just came out, so you can go to Amazon and watch it, Ben Affleck, who is a forensic accountant, a hit man, and he also has Asperger's, he games a dating system algorithm and seems to be the perfect date for every female in the room.

until they have their face-to-face meetings, right? Needless to say, he bombs every single fucking date, much like tailoring everything about yourself with co-pilots. You can look perfect on screen, but when you show up to the interview, the date, it probably won't go well. So it's kind of like the level of AI catfishing, to be quite frank. That's what JobRite feels like to me. I like the idea of tech helping us be more efficient, but I don't like the...

J.T. O'Donnell (23:10.734)

every single one.

Chad (23:35.443)

eventual, you know, wolf and sheep's clothing impacts that we could prospectively happen by using systems like this. Like it. If we can do agents like more like Wisk where it's more like doing tasks for you as opposed to trying to create this Instagram filter to make me look much more pretty. And I know it's hard than I already am. Yeah, I mean, come on. I mean, stop the catfishing kids. We don't need platforms to catfish.

J.T. O'Donnell (24:01.88)

Perfection.

Joel Cheesman (24:08.976)

So I'm on, I'm on the opposite of this, I think. And I'll let JT be the tiebreaker. There, there have been many times in my life where I've looked at a technology and I've said, yeah, that's a thing. That's going to happen, whether it's digital photos, whether it's search, email, streaming video and whatnot. And I just look at this agent shit and I go, this is a thing. Job search sucks. It's time consuming. It's painful. It's depressing.

It's ego destroying in many cases. People are going to want to have an agent do the job search for them, do the interview for them 24 seven. I don't have to touch it. And then once a day or whatever I get back, Hey, this company's interested. They've done the preliminary interview. Now they want to meet you in person. Like that is something that I can see people wanting to do, whether it's a startup or it's indeed.

Like I think people want to do, they're sick of being ghosted. They're sick of the black hole. Like just let a technology do it for me I'll get on with my life. And similarly with whisk, think HR in many ways, they would like to take off the job posting, the sourcing resumes, like all that stuff that is promising through agents. I think that's going to happen too. I don't know who's going to do it. Maybe it's a big player, like indeed, maybe it's a spunky startup.

but agents make too much sense to me. Yeah. I said spunky. And by the way, if you have been Affleck on your bingo card, make sure that you, you, you, you snap that. so for me, like, I think it, just makes too much sense not to happen. think agents are going to talk to agents and people are going to be out of the picture until they, until they absolutely have to be in the picture. That's my, that's my take on this.

Chad (25:29.739)

Bunky.

Chad (25:35.105)

Boom.

Chad (25:52.987)

Don't don't don't be confused. didn't say it wasn't going to happen. I just said that it's going to be more like Ben Affleck or who looked who looked awesome to all those women until they actually fucking met.

J.T. O'Donnell (26:03.438)

Yeah, there's going to be more. I mean, rarely I've ever said that I was going to side with Joel in a situation. Joel decided to me. But let me give you some anecdotal evidence on the job seeker side, right? I am seeing a massive surge and people asking about reverse recruiting. This comes up every time in a really bad job market. These slimy companies come out of nowhere and say, pay me and I'll find you a job. I'll get you the job interviews to find you a job to the point that this week, is the third time it's happened.

Chad (26:26.218)

Go for it.

J.T. O'Donnell (26:31.886)

Somebody is faking me on Fiverr and grabbed all my stuff, claims it's me and says that for $650, I will reverse recruit for you. So people have been smart enough to come and let me know and we're shutting it down, right? But when I see this much about reverse recruiting, that just tells you exactly what Joel's saying. They are so done and everybody wants an agent. Everybody wants to feel like the star and there's an agent representing me. That's like just human nature. So I'm with in Wonder % who does it, how it's happening.

Joel Cheesman (26:37.03)

Hmm.

Chad (26:40.833)

catfishing.

J.T. O'Donnell (27:02.092)

Yeah, yeah, definitely happening.

Chad (27:04.065)

Well, it's the 80-20 rule that Joel just talked about. It's the 80-20 rule that Joel just talked about. 80 % of the motherfuckers out there are lazy. So yeah, of course they would like to have tech do it for them. I don't disagree. I just think that it's not gonna come with great outcomes.

Joel Cheesman (27:04.176)

Did JT say she agrees with me?

J.T. O'Donnell (27:10.904)

Mm-hmm.

J.T. O'Donnell (27:22.86)

until they do the things you talked about, in the assessments, work in the things that validate and prove that somebody's real.

Chad (27:25.835)

Yes. Yep. 100%.

Joel Cheesman (27:29.67)

There will be hiccups. Email has spam and this will have fraud and abuse and all kinds of other s***. Yes, but we still use it every day except my kids, which I make use because I still email my kids. For the record, JT agrees with me, everybody. All right, let's get to, I don't know, let's file this one under the no s*** Sherlock file. we do that? Ford CEO, Jim Farley.

Chad (27:34.739)

Email still has spam. Still has spam.

fucking choice.

Joel Cheesman (27:55.878)

learned from older employees that young workers were taking multiple jobs due to low wages. Inspired by founder Henry Ford's decision to raise factory wages, Farley transitioned temporary workers to full-time positions, providing higher wages, profit sharing, and better healthcare. This move aimed to attract stable workforce and encourage employees shockingly to buy Ford products as a result of getting paid more. Chad, back to the future.

Your thoughts on Ford's CEO's comment.

Chad (28:28.304)

my fucking God. mean, like you said, no shit, Sherlock. More pay, that's the answer. What a fucking genius that Jim Farley is. Seriously, this is complete and utter bullshit of an epiphany. Of course, employees will be happier. They will be retained easier. And paying your employees means that they might even become customers. That's what Ford understand. How do we not know that already?

I mean, that that to me just blows my fucking mind. Henry Ford was not being charitable. He wanted to have more Ford cars on the road. And that's the easiest way to get to quicker adoption. Right. You do that through your employees. People see him on the road. I got to have me a Ford. That's how you start adoption. Right. It just makes sense. So to be able to pay people, it just it drives me crazy. Yes. The most amazing bullshit that we have had to endure in our lifetime.

is the myth that paying people more will just put prices out of reach and tank the economy. It's wrong. California increased fast food worker paid a $15 an hour minimum wage and the price of a Big Mac went up cents, not dollars, went up cents. It's good for company morale. It's good for local economies and it's good for the nation to pay the employees a living wage. I mean, all of this to be an epiphany.

for a guy who makes hundreds of millions of dollars. He deserves to be fired. Fire that fucker.

Joel Cheesman (30:05.126)

Fired him, Ford stock is up 20 % year to date, Chad. He's not going anywhere. He's not going anywhere. So a few things on this. The whole commentary from the older workers to him was that younger workers were working at Amazon and then they were getting off work and going to Ford and sleeping like three to four hours a day. Well, no shit, that's an environment that's going to be bad for business. So doing that just made sense. It also makes me question all the unemployment numbers.

J.T. O'Donnell (30:07.904)

Mm-mm.

Chad (30:09.236)

And he's getting his ass kicked too. mean, geez.

J.T. O'Donnell (30:30.84)

Hmm.

Joel Cheesman (30:35.13)

thinking like how many people have multiple jobs that are being counted in who knows what kind of ways. like that was sort of eyeopening to me. the second thing I think that he mentioned that makes a lot of sense is that governments need to get a lot more serious about training people, for jobs in this, in manufacturing and, this like you.

Chad (30:39.776)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (30:53.642)

Fuck him. Fuck him.

Joel Cheesman (30:58.176)

Why? Because he said it?

Chad (30:59.36)

Apple paid China $275 billion and Apple trained 28 million employees. But yet they want to go to the government for a handout. Fuck you.

Joel Cheesman (31:02.402)

Okay, so put up or shut up.

Joel Cheesman (31:14.796)

Okay. Okay. All right. But we both agree that schools need to do more to train people to do trade skills.

Chad (31:18.676)

I'm supposed to be Euro Chad, why are you making me mad?

Chad (31:25.824)

It's just where the money comes from. It should be coming from Ford.

Joel Cheesman (31:28.88)

Fair enough, fair enough. He mentioned Germany, that students are taught in junior high and they're much more skilled than American workers. And then the third thing I think, the need for a higher minimum wage. We have such a low floor in America that when they get to these jobs, even though it's more, it's from a much lower base. And we need to raise the base so that these jobs become living wages that you don't just go from fast food.

J.T. O'Donnell (31:29.795)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (31:40.277)

Yes.

Joel Cheesman (31:55.856)

to manufacturing and you're still not being able to make ends meet, still have to take extra jobs. as a country, we need to get our minimum wage up to that 20, 25, $30 range so that these things don't happen. So good, bad, ugly, the four news, take it for what you will. But those are three takeaways that I had from the story and his comments.

J.T. O'Donnell (32:18.582)

Yeah, it's so funny. I think if you factor in true underemployment right now, our rates got to be way up over 8 % when you think about it. And for somebody to doing two or three jobs exhausted, the emotional stress, the physical stress, the sickness, it's just so obvious. Raise the dang rates. It's crazy to me that they don't see it. hopefully it's coming. Gig work isn't for everyone, too. Shift work and multiple jobs and running around. People would just love a decent wage, work one place, go home and get a good night's rest.

Chad (32:46.954)

Yeah, and have a life and have a life. We talked to Catherine Watt from CNET and she said the unemployment rates probably more around 20 percent when you're talking about unemployed. mean, so it's it's it's much higher than what we're than we're actually saying. But yeah, it's it's ridiculous.

Joel Cheesman (32:47.398)

I think that's most people.

J.T. O'Donnell (32:47.52)

That's not much to ask for.

Joel Cheesman (32:59.62)

under play down.

J.T. O'Donnell (33:00.042)

Exactly.

Joel Cheesman (33:06.182)

All right, let's take a quick break. Guys, if you haven't left us a review on your podcast platform of choice, please do so. We love to hear from you.

Joel Cheesman (33:18.054)

All right, guys, let's let's talk some layoffs. Shall we? One of our favorite playoffs. That's right. In 2025, tech layoffs persist with over 22,000 job cuts so far peaking at 16,234 just in February. That's per our friends at layoffs.fyi. Companies like Rivian, Bumble, Clue, Google, Intel, Airtime, Microsoft, Slash jobs to boost efficiency and fund AI.

Chad (33:22.218)

Layoffs?

J.T. O'Donnell (33:23.02)

more enact

Joel Cheesman (33:48.216)

impacting HR's talent strategies and exacerbating infinite workday risks. Chad, your thoughts on all the layoffs that are going on these days.

Chad (33:59.083)

Just the mess continues. I mean, we take a look at dumping hundreds of thousands of federal white collar workers into the the mess that's already there with tech workers because we had huge companies like Facebook who literally were hoarding talent, not even using them. were literally just pools of talent that they didn't want their competitors to have. And then when the market needed to be skinned down a little bit, they just dumped them back on. mean, so I mean, the only way that we're going to fix this is to retool.

Joel Cheesman (34:13.712)

Yeah.

J.T. O'Donnell (34:15.608)

Mm-hmm.

Chad (34:29.056)

how we look at work and the workforce and actually the workforce economy in itself and how we drive and build an economy. The way that we're doing it now, it's it's flawed and it's been flawed for decades, for goodness sake. So we've got to take a different look at how we're doing things. going back to the Apple in China conversation that we had with Patrick McGee, the way that we get ourselves out of this,

is companies have to remember they're a part of the community. The community is what feeds them with talent where they can actually build product and build revenue. Right. That's how it works. When companies go to government with their handout looking for, you know, corporate charity, for God's sakes, that's where things fall down because then the money doesn't get put into the actual talent to be able to build. And then they start bitching about what Germany has and China has. It's like, well, yeah, because you're spending money.

So we really have to take a look at that. And unfortunately, I don't like to say it, but government's got to get involved and there've got to be parameters that are built around this. Not to mention CEOs making, you know, 1500 % more than, you know, the guys actually on the manufacturing line is bullshit too. It's just, it's a top-down reorganization that we have to take a look at.

J.T. O'Donnell (35:49.347)

Yeah, there's also a narrative that needs to be switched up too, though, right? We've taught people for very long time, go to college, get a good job, work it in. Number one, you know, those people that worked at Facebook, that was their end game. That's going to get me every job I ever won after this because I got hired at Facebook. Well, that's not true. So many people's mental models of career have collapsed. The definition of career has collapsed, collapsed. And so we have to address that too, because even I mean, the employers need to do it. right.

Chad (35:58.912)

Yeah.

Chad (36:03.796)

Mm. Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (36:03.845)

Hmm.

J.T. O'Donnell (36:15.714)

But even when they start to do that, we also have to have people's eyes and ears opened up to the switch. So it's pretty messy, you know?

Chad (36:23.646)

Yeah, yeah, college. mean, so the whole college aspect, I mean, it just turned into a moneymaking model, right? And that's really what that's really what screwed us all. We stopped what Ford was talking about in Germany doing vocational schools. We used to do those. We used to do those. As matter of fact, Cummins Injun Company back in Columbus, Indiana, where I live, they actually fund the vocational school and the high school.

because they understand they have to support the community. It's just a great example, but it's also great business.

J.T. O'Donnell (36:55.318)

Right. But I'll tell you, did a last Friday, I did a TikTok because somebody posted and he said, I'm a college grad. My parents don't understand how bad the market is. They don't understand. Would you do a video on it? I was like, sure. So I put up PSA parents, listen up. All of sudden, 300,000 people viewed it in two days. it's just kids are sending it to their parents. And you should see the comments of like what the parents tell them to do. Well, have you walked in the front door yet? And like, you know, all that great old school advice is just so cringy.

Chad (37:20.497)

store.

J.T. O'Donnell (37:22.799)

And it just shows you how messed up it is, that piece of it. don't

Joel Cheesman (37:27.046)

I love how JT has a way of humbling us on this show. Like we think we're so cool and she comes on with 300,000 people.

Chad (37:34.058)

Yeah.

J.T. O'Donnell (37:35.054)

Well, maybe you should do a few more TikToks, boys. I've only mentioned it a zillion times to you. You'll be stars. You'll be stars. Not true. Not true.

Joel Cheesman (37:39.44)

We have a face for radio, JT, haven't we told you that? Well, the good news is I guess LinkedIn doesn't have to worry about BumbleBiz taking over the LinkedIn business anytime soon. Don't forget in our space, like CB Monster, 390 people laid off, Dice has cut a fourth of its workforce, LinkedIn laid off almost 300 people recently.

Chad (37:39.488)

Do TikToks all the time.

Chad (37:57.6)

Mm.

Joel Cheesman (38:01.508)

that impacts our industry as well. It's not just big companies that you're looking at. And, and if I could be selfish for a little bit, and I'll, I'll loop this into a bigger point. Every time these layoffs happen in our industry, I freak out cause I go, these are people who listen to our show. What's going to happen to these people? Are they going to leave the industry and never like listen to us again? I always think like, God, we got to run this hamster wheel, like more listeners and they leave because they get fired from the industry. So I worry about that, but I'm going to loop this around with.

with, if you're a SaaS business and you are focused on seats for your revenue, companies are having a lot fewer seats these days. And if you're like LinkedIn, hey, we charge per seat, you might want to rethink your business model because seats are getting fewer and fewer. And so is your revenue if you have a model that is for that. So I expect to see, we'll see a lot of companies in our space that charge per seat.

Chad (38:44.127)

Yeah.

Joel Cheesman (38:57.316)

rethink how they do, do their product, get a lot more serious about brand and, building trust and retention with their clients. Because there are fewer, fewer people at these companies and you still need to make money and you're making less because you're on a seat model that is going to impact a lot of businesses in our space, not just podcasts that are looking to talk to people in our space. Fortunately for us, we have dad jokes, which keep people coming back again and again. All right, guys.

Chad (39:26.24)

Mmm.

Joel Cheesman (39:27.406)

What's the difference between a drug dealer and a hooker? The difference between a drug dealer and a hooker.

Chad (39:37.024)

You got me.

Joel Cheesman (39:37.762)

A hooker can wash or crack and sell it over and over.

Chad (39:43.72)

horrible.

Joel Cheesman (39:44.651)

See you in England everybody. We out.

Chad (39:46.273)

That's fucking horrible.

J.T. O'Donnell (39:46.978)

We out!