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Interview: Robert Kerbeck, "Ruse: Lying the American Dream from Hollywood to Wall Street"

If you heard a B-list actor, but an A-list corporate spy was on The Chad & Cheese Podcast, would you listen? Well, today's your lucky day. The boys welcome Robert Kerbeck, author of "Ruse: Lying the American Dream from Hollywood to Wall Street," to the podcast. Through a career that started in the '80s, peaked during the Y2K scare and continues today through folklore, the podcast explores tips and tricks - not only for corporate espionage - but for recruiting / poaching, job searching and even corporate security.

Oh, and there are stories about O.J., Madonna and Steve Jobs too. Enjoy.

INTRO (1s):

Hide your kids! Lock the doors! You're listening to HR’s most dangerous podcast. Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry, right where it hurts! Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark, buckle up boys and girls, it's time for the Chad and Cheese podcast.

Joel (22s):

Oh yeah. You know, what's up everybody. It's your two favorite middle-aged white guys also known as the Chad and Cheese podcast. I'm your co-host Joel Cheeseman joined is always, the Robin to my Batman, Chad Sowash and today an interview like we've never done before. He's a B-list actor and an, A-list corporate spy, if that doesn't keep you listening. I don't know what well, let's welcome. Robert Kerbeck to the show. Robert, how are you and where are you calling from Mr. Corporates spy?

Robert (54s):

Yeah. If I told you that I'd have to take you out back and shoot you.

Joel (58s):

Oh shit.

Chad (59s):

Nobody wants that.

Robert (1m 0s):

I'm calling from sunny Malibu, California.

Joel (1m 4s):

It's just awful.

Chad (1m 5s):

Sounds horrible, fucking horrible. I got to say Robert, I don't know who your PR firm is, but we get requests probably about 20 requests a day to come on the show to do interviews. And generally, if something's not like really spot on topic for, you know, for what we do in our industry, I kick that shit to the curb. I saw yours and it does play around the fringes. We're going to talk about that today.

Joel (1m 33s):

The bio stands out. The bio is kind of interesting.

Chad (1m 36s):

The bio was incredible, but, but the book Ruse: Lying the American Dream from Hollywood to Wall Street. This is an amazing book. We're going to talk about that. We're going to get into that, but before we do give us a little Twitter bio about you, and then we're just going to roll right into it.

Robert (1m 54s):

Yeah. So, you know, I was a young guy. I'm from Philadelphia. My great-grandfather sold horse carriages before cars were invented. My grandfather took over the dealership. My father took over the dealership and I was supposed to take over the dealership. And when I was in college, I kind of stumbled into acting. I fell in love with it, wanted to move to New York, to try to become an actor. And of course actors need survival jobs. And so I went to New York and somehow I stumbled into a job as a corporate spy.

Chad (2m 22s):

You still, okay. Let's run through this shit real quick. Okay. First and foremost, it's interesting because I mean, you obviously have the DNA embedded from a gift of gab sales kind of scenario, which also rolls into, I think, acting there's a good amount of, you know, ego. That's there not to mention. You're good looking kind of guy. How the hell. So I can see those too, right? I have no fucking clue. How do you go from that to corporate espionage?

Joel (2m 51s):

Was there a job posting in the Tribune or something?

Chad (2m 56s):

Did you go to I mean what the hell?

Robert (2m 59s):

That's funny. Funny. Yeah, they, of course they didn't have back in the day. And even today, I don't know that you're going to see a lot of corporate espionage listings. Right? My college roommate's brother was living in New York and he kind of offered to show me the ropes. And one day he kind of mysteriously mentioned this job and then he shut up right away. And I said, whoa, Hey, Hey, you know, I need a job. What's going on with that? Oh man. And very mysterious about it. But finally, you know, I twisted his arm and he got me this interview with this woman. And I go up to her apartment.

Chad (3m 33s):

Wait a minute, that seems like a sales technique to me because you can draw somebody and you feel, I kinda like that. Well, I got a secret here. And then was that part of it?

Robert (3m 43s):

Well, he wasn't rusing me if that's what you're asking.

Chad (3m 46s):

Yes I was yes.

Robert (3m 47s):

So I go to the upper east side, which as your listeners may know is kind of the ritziest area of Manhattan. And it's a doorman building. I take the elevator up to the penthouse. This woman opens the door. I remember her now, like holding a martini and smoking a cigarette, but maybe that's just the actor in me exaggerating the story a little bit.

Joel (4m 10s):

Nice ascot.

Robert (4m 10s):

She takes me into this apartment, which was for sure the nicest, you know, luxury apartment I'd ever been into. Everything was white. Everything was pristine and right away, I knew whatever she was doing. It was lucrative. She was making a ton of money and she proceeds to do this interview where she never asked me a single question about my skills, what I do. I had a resume. She never asked to see it. She just asked about my relationship with my father and how he was taking me not coming into the family business, which of course really put me off by. I was confused and surprised. You know, I didn't know why she was asking about my dad and my relationship with my dad. And she sends me on my way. And I'm pretty sure I haven't gotten the job. And then my buddy calls and he says, you're hired, but don't get too excited because she hires everyone because no one is able to do this job.

Chad (4m 56s):


Joel (4m 56s):

What year is this? By the way.

Robert (4m 59s):

This is late eighties.

Joel (4m 60s):

Okay. So this is the height of like Gordon Gecko, Michael Milka. And this is New York is a rockin greedy place at this point.

Robert (5m 9s):

Absolutely, absolutely. And so then the next day I went and I started training for this job and I go out to Williamsburg, Brooklyn. And this is back in the day when Williamsburg wasn't filled with coffee shops and hipsters with beards, there were just crack addicts running the streets. And it was very scary, very dangerous. I go into this building, I'm hearing yelling, screaming. I walk up the, you know, there's no elevator in this building. I walk up to the fourth floor, knock on this door and this adorable young woman opens it. She's got a bit of an Irish accent. And she says, come on in, you'll work in my bedroom. And I still have no idea what this job is, what the heck is going on.

Chad (5m 48s):

It sounds like working in her bedroom kind of gives you an idea of what the job might be. You might be like a gigolo at this point.

Robert (5m 55s):

Yeah. Which by the way, I think I would have been fine with that too. I needed money. And so, she takes me and she sits me down at this little desk in her bedroom, which had, I think a desk and a futon on the ground. And she begins to tell me what we're doing. And she says, look, what we're doing is we're finding out secret information about Wall Street firms and she begins to train me as to how we do that. The process of how we get people who are trained, who many of whom have advanced degrees, MBAs, whatever, how we get them, how we trick them, how we "ruse" them, hence the title of the book, how we ruse them to give us information that they should never ever give us.

Joel (6m 39s):

So what was your first call? Who was it to, what kind of information were you looking to find?

Chad (6m 44s):

Was it successful?

Joel (6m 45s):

Or do you know what you're going to find or do things that reveal themselves to you? How does this typically work?

Chad (6m 51s):

Good question.

Robert (6m 51s):

Yeah. So my first call of course, was a disaster. And most of my initial calls were disasters because as, you may gather, you know, being a corporate spy and getting people to tell you information that they're trained not to give that oftentimes they sign employment contracts that forbid them to release this information, extremely difficult. Extremely difficult. And in terms of the intelligence that we were looking for in corporate spies, we're looking for today, you know, every spine project, every corporate espionage project is bespoke. It's custom. And we're trying to find out anything in everything that we can obtain on a corporation that's going to benefit their competitors.

Robert (7m 32s):

You know, you think about, if you could get the playbook for your football team, you know, the Sunday game, if you could get the playbook on Thursday or Friday, and you knew every play, they were going to run, you know, every formation, you know, everything about, you know, imagine how valuable that would be. Oh,

Chad (7m 49s):

Damn, you're Bill Belichick.

Robert (7m 50s):

Right. Exactly.

Joel (7m 51s):

Was this less about, I guess, insider trading and what stocks they were buying, versus sort of what major moves they were going to make an M and A, like, what exactly was the goal? Was it to get to a trade before them or something else?

Robert (8m 8s):

Remember, you know, we're talking now early nineties and into the aughts, and this is the era pre LinkedIn. So a lot of times articles that are coming out about the book, describe me as LinkedIn, before LinkedIn was invented, right? Because one of the things people are able to do today is they're able to, not a hundred percent, I would estimate LinkedIn has about 60% of available executives, accurate information. But for the most part back then, there was no way to determine who was in a group, who ran a group, who the rock stars were in a group, like who were the top three traders in a group, top three salespeople on a team, who were the bankers had the largest books of business.

Robert (8m 50s):

And as you can imagine, all of that information, if your competitors knew who the top people on a team of 30, who the top five people were, imagine how valuable that was.

Joel (9m 2s):

So you were poaching? These were poaching missions.

Robert (9m 5s):

That they always started with the talent, because that was obviously really important. But then what we would do is we would build out the organizational chart. We would know everybody at a team, not 98% of the people, not 99% of the people, a hundred percent of the people in a group, they exact titles, the reporting structures, what they did. And then we would layer on that, what the group was up to, what the projects they were working on. Were they expanding? Were they hiring? Were they opening a new office in Charlotte? Were they working on a deal with, you know, anything and everything that competitors would want to know that would give them, you know, basically, you know, intelligence that's going to benefit them.

Chad (9m 50s):

So LinkedIn is like a gift.

Joel (9m 53s):

Totally. Although the 60% is interesting, he's saying 40% are not on LinkedIn, which means there's still a lot of opportunity.

Chad (9m 59s):

Yeah. But so LinkedIn is a gift because now you have leads into people, actually talk to you to be able to get up the ladder a lot quicker. Right.

Robert (10m 7s):

That's really an astute comment, because when LinkedIn came out, like each time technology would change, you know, we corporate spies. They're like, ah, it's over for us. That's the end of that. And everything that happened just made our job easier. You know, initially we were really concerned as we moved into the computer era, all of the organizational charts, which had formerly been on paper, became digitized and entered into the corporate directory as well. Wow. That was unbelievable because now I could get anyone and still can, get anyone in any far flung satellite office, Topeka, Kansas, Dublin, Ireland, wherever some person may be that if they have access to the corporate directory, which most do the intranet, I'm able to get somebody to tell me information on the top team in Silicon Valley or the top team in New York, from Topeka, Kansas, or Dublin Ireland.

Robert (11m 1s):

Right. And then in terms of LinkedIn, you know, yeah. LinkedIn became a source of people, you know, we would be able to, okay, well this is a junior person, they're new with the firm. They may not, you know, have the same kind of level of understanding of the importance of keeping secrets. You know, one of the things we were seeing in the world now is, you know, younger people have grown up in an era where privacy doesn't exist as much, right. And they're also generally more comfortable with that idea. So a lot of times younger employees, junior employees don't realize how valuable this information can be. And if you get them on their phone, which of course is difficult. But if you get them on their phone, they're often willing to tell you a lot of things that they should never ever tell you.

Robert (11m 44s):

As a matter of fact, a lot of times I can't get young people on the phone to stop talking.

Joel (11m 50s):

Young, dumb and full of cum is your best friend as a corporate spy. Is that what you're saying?

Robert (11m 55s):

I would say so.

Joel (11m 56s):

You'd have a part of the book about flirting for information. So it sounds like finding someone young and impressionable is your key asset. I assume you don't just call up the front desk and say, who's the CFO and who are, you know, the executives below him and who's below them. Is that typically the strategy? And is that the current strategy for finding out corporate information?

Robert (12m 17s):

I think what most people don't realize is the amount of research that goes into making an espionage call or a series, you know, basically to target a firm. We would do a tremendous amount of research before we would ever consider picking up the phone. Right? We want to know everything that's going on with that firm, we're reading their recent press releases. We're studying their stock price. We're aware. Did the football team win the day before? Did they lose the day before? Was there a trade that happened? Was there something that happened in the city? Like whatever information is going on, that gives us a real world picture that we can utilize that information in our call, trying to establish rapport, trying to create this connection with the person on the other end of the phone, who of course has been trained to never release this kind of information and certainly not over the telephone.

Robert (13m 5s):

Right? And so we would do all of that research before we would ever even dare picking up the phone because that research enables you to get that information. And a lot of times you've only got one or two shots at this information. And if you blow it now, you can't get the information. And I'm here to tell you, I didn't just get the information 90% of the time. I didn't get it. 95% of the time I got the information, 99.9999999% of the time.

sfx (13m 35s):


Joel (13m 35s):

That's called a success rate Chad. That's pretty good.

Chad (13m 38s):

You're talking about all these, all this research and whatnot, but there were also tools that were out there that helped you, I guess, would say you could use fear and then also an individual's kind of like emotions or wanting to help in this case Y2K. And this was a tool for you in your group to be able to actually play off what was happening to everybody and what everybody was fucking scared of happening was the earth stopping because of Y2K you use this to your benefit. Talk about that. How did you, how would you use something like that?

Robert (14m 13s):

Well, I can't take credit for that idea. That was my buddy, my college roommate's brother in the bookies packs. And he's the guy that got me the job. And he's the guy that figured out Y2K he figured out that everybody was panicked. Everybody was freaked out and he would just say he was working on Y2K and people would go, oh my God, are we going to be okay? And he'd say, calm down, calm down. It's going to be fine, but we are having some issues and we're finding that we need to re put a lot of information into the internet. And so here's the information I need from you because we have to re put it into the internet. It's going to be so much work and people would feel sorry for us.

Robert (14m 53s):

They would say, oh my, that sounds horrible. Sure. What do you need?

Chad (14m 59s):

Anything to save us from Y2K.

Robert (15m 1s):

Yup. That's exactly what it was.

Joel (15m 2s):

So that's around technology. I want to go back to the people who aren't on LinkedIn. And I think the popular sentiment is that a lot of it professionals are not on LinkedIn for obvious reasons, they don't want to get calls from recruiters. How has the finding people game changed without them being on LinkedIn? And also if everyone's org chart is online, is it more about sort of technology secrets and what people are doing from a tech perspective? I mean, we talk a lot about AI and automation. I assume that getting technology is a prime piece of content that you can provide to clients. How has the game changed knowing that a lot of people still aren't on LinkedIn?

Robert (15m 41s):

Well, that's a great question. I think it's surprising to a lot of people, how many we call them passive candidates, right? These are people that are not on LinkedIn. These are people that are killing it, where they are. They've got a great job. They're rock stars. They don't want to be on LinkedIn because they don't want to be inundated with requests from amateur hour, head hunters, right? Executive recruiters, You know, all the people that are smiling and dialing, they don't have time for that. And I'm here to tell you that my clients were the largest firms in the world, and also the largest executive recruiting firms in the world. Right? You look at the top, the list of top 10 executive recruiting firms, you know, nine of them were my clients and these clients were only interested, almost exclusively, only interested in the passive candidates, that were killing it where they were and were not on LinkedIn.

Robert (16m 33s):

And so we're really, really difficult for people to find and for people to know about. And so even today, corporate spying, trust me, it's alive and well. And one of the main things that these firms are looking for, these executive recruiting firms are looking for are these passive candidates.

Chad (16m 51s):

So the information that you were going after, wasn't always candidates, right?

Robert (16m 55s):

No, it wasn't always candidates. Sometimes it was pricing strategies, you know, new products think about, again, Steve Jobs, legendary CEO of Apple, he would not allow his designers to be listed in the Apple directory. Right. Because he was afraid of them being poached. Imagine if we were able to get the names of the, let's just say, iPad design team in the early days of the iPad design, you can imagine how much that information was worth. Right. That would be worth billions and billions of dollars.

Chad (17m 24s):

Oh, no question. But this is in some of this information in the way that you're going after it, this was illegal right?

Robert (17m 30s):


Chad (17m 31s):


Robert (17m 31s):

I'm sorry. You cut out there. Illegal? I couldn't hear that.

Chad (17m 36s):

Did you ever feel like, oh shit. You know, we're going to get caught. Did you ever have a situation where it was like, okay, we got to close this down. We got to go into hiding.

Joel (17m 47s):

Scatter, scatter.

Chad (17m 47s):

Yeah. Any of that happened at all?

Robert (17m 50s):

Yes. Yes. I'm able to write the book now because I obviously don't spy anymore. I wouldn't be very good spy if I outed myself as a spy continued to spy, right? That would be pretty dangerous. And so the statute of limitations has expired on whatever potential crimes I may or may not have committed. But back in the day, there was a moment and there were a number of these, you know, close calls. But there was one in particular where my buddy Pax and I were being hunted by a laundry list of authorities: the FBI, US Marshals, Secret Service, on and on, who got wind of our activities, but they actually thought that we were the most famous hacker in the world.

Robert (18m 37s):

And at the time every organization was after this individual. And while they were on this hunt for this guy, they stumbled onto our trail and were coming after us. And that was really frightening. And especially, it was really frightening when they did finally catch this hacker who was arrested as a domestic terrorist, put in solitary confinement for 23 hours a day and spent a number of years in jail.

Chad (19m 5s):

Holy Shit.

Robert (19m 6s):

Yeah. There were some moments that were like, oh my God, I cannot believe we're going to go down for this survival job for actors.

Joel (19m 16s):

You mentioned the value of Apples, you know, tech team put it in context, the kind of money companies are spending or willing to spend for information. Like I assume you weren't, you know, filing your taxes in a typical way, but can you give us some perspective on what bank accounts look like for people like you?

Robert (19m 32s):

Well, you know, it's funny when I started doing the job, I was getting $8 an hour, which is pretty crazy, you know, but again, you know, we didn't know what we were getting into. And when we started, the job was a lot more innocent than it became. You know, we would, in the beginning, we were posing as students, we were working on a paper and then over time, it morphed to, we were literally mimicking the voices of CEOs of major firms, pretending we were them to get into individuals to tell us information. And so by the end, I went from $8 an hour to millions of dollars a year that I was making.

Chad (20m 12s):


Joel (20m 12s):


Robert (20m 13s):


Chad (20m 13s):

That's not hateful.

Joel (20m 14s):

And those eighties dollars, are we talking current dollars?

Robert (20m 17s):

Well, current dollars, man, they might be tens of millions.

Joel (20m 21s):

OK, That'll buy a lot of beer.

Chad (20m 22s):

You talked about Pax. What was your relationship? Cause it seems like Pax not just got you to the job, but he was at this point, really a co-worker. What was your relationship with your peers? Did you like brainstorm spitball things? I mean, how did you actually interact? Did you work together? How was that relationship?

Robert (20m 40s):

Well,Pax & I, you know, we were friends, we were coworkers and we developed this kind of brotherly rivalry, right. Where, you know, he, you know, he came up with Y2K and he was constantly throwing it in my face. Cause he taught me the ploy and he was constantly throwing it in my face that it wasn't for Y2K, I wouldn't be getting this, if it wasn't for Y2K, I wouldn't be getting that. Right? So then I had to develop a ploy and I'm like, okay, you know what? I'm gonna, all of a sudden I'm like compliance, compliance, compliance. And so I developed this compliance ploy because you know, when you hear, you know, you've got the, you know, the Head of Compliance on the phone. Oh my God, well, what's going on? Well, you know, oh, all we're all site meeting with the U S regulators. We've got a crisis situation here we need, oh my God.

Robert (21m 22s):

Well, how can I help? Right. You know, in America we're always taught, especially in corporate culture, be a good corporate teammate, you know. You know, help out! Do what you need to do. And so all of a sudden you got the Head of Compliance on the phone offsite in Washington, DC. Oh my God, what do you? How can I help? Right. And so that was the one that I came up with. So Pax and I were constantly going back and forth, sort of butting heads, but we were also helping each other. And we were driving each other to develop kind of more and more sophisticated ploys that was getting, you know, just greater amounts of intelligence. I mean, you know, sometimes it was shocking, the intelligence that we would determine, sometimes very salacious information that we, you know, a lot of times we weren't even going after things, but again, we'd get a talkative person on the phone that believed we were a senior executive.

Robert (22m 16s):

What would they not tell us? They were willing to tell us anything, you know, oh my God, did you hear, so-and-so got a DUI? Boy, you know, how's that going to get cleaned up? Well, I hope the press doesn't find out about that. Right? So all of this stuff that we would be finding out about the "corporate family", so to speak, you know, the executives, it was really eye opening to say the least.

Joel (22m 42s):

I think the recruiters that are listening have some tips and tricks. The legality of which is in question may be on some of them, but they, they have some takeaways I think from this conversation. And, on the flip side of the recruiters, we have job seekers and it seems like there's not a week that goes by that there's not a new scam for job seekers. Someone's trying to get information from them. But I also feel like there may be some tips that you have to help a job seeker get into a company in a legitimate way. Do you have any tips for job seekers, whether it's what to look out for, or how to get your foot in the door of a company that you want to work for?

Robert (23m 16s):

Absolutely. I mean, one thing I think it's important to recognize is not every job interview is a legitimate interview and that doesn't mean that the recruiter that reaches out to you isn't legitimate. But a lot of times what executive recruiters do, is they interview a whole bunch of people at their client's biggest rival or one of their client's biggest rivals. Again, it's a phishing expedition to get you to reveal information, right? Because now they're interviewing you. And let's just say, you're a relatively junior person in some department. And all of a sudden you get an interview to be the head of this big area at a rival firm, well, in the back of your mind, you're probably going, boy, this would be a huge job for me, God, this would be a ginormous jump in everything, salary, you know, title, whatever.

Robert (24m 4s):

Well, you know, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. And so what a lot of times sophisticated executive recruiters are doing is they're bringing you in as a ruse to get you to reveal information about your company. So, you know, boy, we're so excited. We heard about you. We heard you're a really talented up and coming, tell us a little about your firm and how do they do X, Y, and Z. And how did they structure the phones, and how do they do this? And what are they up to these days? You know, and it sounds like they're there to interview you for a job and really it's a ruse to get you to reveal information that's going to benefit their clients.

Joel (24m 46s):


Chad (24m 48s):

Oh yeah. And they have you coming to them.

Robert (24m 50s):


Joel (24m 50s):

That's nasty.

Chad (24m 51s):

Oh, damn. All right. All right. All right. I'm going to finish off with a couple of acting questions cause I got to dig into this. We don't get a chance to talk to many actors around here, B list or otherwise. What was your favorite role?

Robert (25m 5s):

My favorite role. Oh my gosh. My favorite role was, I did a play off-Broadway so I'm going to go to the theater cause that's kind of where I started, that was my first love, but I did a play off Broadway with Calista Flockhart.

Chad (25m 23s):


Robert (25m 24s):

You remember Calista from the TV show, Ally McBeal. And she's of course married to a Harrison Ford for many years now. And Calista and I did this wonderful play off Broadway that ran for months and months got a rave review in the New Yorker and it was just a really great time. We were young actors in New York and when you do a play in New York and it's a hit play kind of the talk of the town and we would just get invited, there was this one woman who came to see the show and she was older woman. She sort of fell in love with me and she would host parties for us. I want to say parties like $5,000 restaurant parties, which, you know, today would be a $15-$20,000 party just simply because we were in this hit show and she wanted to date me.

Robert (26m 8s):

And so it was just a very heady time.

Chad (26m 13s):

Crazy. So I also understand that you did a little something with OJ. My question is first and foremost, what was that in second? What was your feeling when you turned on the TV and saw OJ in a white Bronco evading the police?

Robert (26m 29s):

Yeah. So I got hired to do this exercise video. My manager called me one day and you know, I was a young actor needed work and he said, Hey, I got this exercise video. I said, Hey Bobby, I, you know, I can't dance. I can't do you know, I'm terrible. I'm horrible. We said, no, no, no, no, no. It's exercise video. It's for OJ Simpson. And I went, whoa!

Joel (26m 50s):

Please tell me spandex was involved.

Robert (26m 51s):

Exactly. And of course, you know, growing up OJ, you know, his time was a little bit before my time, but still I, you know, knew he was a huge star and I watched him in movies and on Monday night football. And so I was really excited to do this exercise video. And I was told it was, you know, we were going to push ups, pull ups, playing pickup basketball. And when I show up for this thing, it's in a basically dance studio and I'm introduced to the choreographer and I'm like, oh my God, we are going to have to do dance.

sfx (27m 21s):

Oh hell no.

Robert (27m 23s):

Hell no! So we started doing these kinds of aerobics moves and the choreographer basically wants to fire me cause he can see I'm just horrific. But OJ vouches for me, he says, oh no, Hey, Robert's making me look good. And because I was so bad and making OJ looked like he was a really good dancer. They couldn't fire me. I know OJ took a liking to me because I was so bad at dancing. And so during the shoot, which was for a couple of days, you know, he just bonded to me. He showed me this pilot that he had just shot for NBC where wait for it. He played a knife expert. And so we have this great experience and I'm like, wow, OJ's, my friend, he's going to get me on this pilot and the series is called Frogman.

Robert (28m 10s):

And then of course, a few days later, these terrible murders happen. And I see OJ in the Bronco and I literally was watching it with my jaw agape. I could not believe that this guy I'd just been hanging out with who was my new best friend, had theoretically murdered two people.

Chad (28m 28s):


Joel (28m 29s):

All right. I can't let you go without this question. Let's play fuck them, marry 'em and kill them of all the stars that you've worked with. Play the game. Who would you shag? Who would you marry? And who would you kill?

Chad (28m 45s):

Oh my God.

Robert (28m 46s):

Well, I would definitely kill Madonna because my wife worked from Madonna for a number of years. And the Madonna was one of those celebrities that you weren't allowed to look at. Right? You hear these stories about, oh, so-and-so when you're on set with them, you can't look at them. Forget about talking to them. You can't even have your eyeballs on them as if they're royalty. Right? Madonna was one of those. In terms of marry and hopefully I would be able to have sex and then marry her, Sela Ward is this gorgeous actress. You may remember her. She played Harrison Ford's wife in the Fugitive and she's just, you know, she was in Gone Girl and a former Miss Mississippi.

Robert (29m 30s):

Just the sweetest, kindest, most beautiful woman ever. And then fuck her old boy, man, a long list. And there's a long list.

Joel (29m 37s):

And there was that time on the Golden Girls.

Robert (29m 39s):

Well, there's a long list of actresses that I do sleep within Ruse. So let me just leave it to your listeners may be intrigued to find out who's on that list. Just say, I'll just say JLo is a possibility.

Chad (29m 55s):

Ah, nice. Well, everybody Robert, dude, we appreciate you stopping by, if somebody wants to buy Ruse, where would you send them?

Robert (30m 4s):

I think go to my website., K E R B E C K, because then you can buy the book wherever you'd like to buy books from. And there's also a lot of other cool content on there. There's a book trailer. The book is in development for a TV series and now there's a trailer for that. So there's just a lot of cool snuff, you can check out.

Joel (30m 21s):

This was awesome.

Chad (30m 22s):

Going to have to have you back during that TV series, my friend.

Robert (30m 25s):

Oh, I'd love to come back. I'd love to come back.

Joel (30m 30s):

Awesome. Thanks Robert. Chad, another one in the can.

Chad and Cheese (30m 35s):

We out, we out.

OUTRO (30m 34s):

Thank you for listening to, what's it called? The podcast with Chad, the Cheese. Brilliant. They talk about recruiting. They talk about technology, but most of all, they talk about nothing. Just a lot of Shout Outs of people, you don't even know and yet you're listening. It's incredible. And not one word about cheese, not one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss. So many cheeses and not one word. So weird. Any hoo be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts, that way you won't miss an episode.

OUTRO (31m 18s):

And while you're at it, visit just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese. Is so weird. We out.


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